October 6, 2025 • 39 mins
We sit with Melanie Cohen to unpack the human side of hoarding—how trauma and OCD shape clutter, why trust matters more than trash bags, and how tiny goals build real change. We share language for hard family talks, safety-first priorities, and ways to give belongings a second life.
• early signs of hoarding masked as productivity and space mismatch
• divorce, bankruptcy, and trauma as drivers of escalating clutter
• OCD, depression, perfectionism, and executive function hurdles
• the failed doctor-room reveal and rebuilding trust over time
• mental clutter vs physical clutter and why both matter
• “ridiculously simple goals” that create momentum
• safety triggers for change and emergency access needs
• donate, sell, recycle strategies and second-life framing
• talking to a hoarding partner without blame
• aging parents, paper mountains, and shred-or-scan decisions
• digital hoarding patterns and small, weekly rituals
• coaching options via Zoom and sustainable wins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Did you grow up when they were hoarding or was it
after you were grown?
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
There were hoarding tendencies or you know, the
signs that hoarding would be anissue later.
But I didn't experience orreally understand.
I guess my dad hop has hoardedpaper my whole life, but I don't
think I really saw it until theyboth went through their divorce
(00:27):
and all the other subsequentstuff that happened.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Welcome back, lawyers.
Today we're shining a light on atopic that doesn't get talked
about nearly enough.
Hoarding.
It's a word that often comeswith judgment, shame, or even
sensationalized TV shows.
But the truth is, hoardingaffects entire families, not
just the person struggling withit.
(00:51):
I'm honored to be joined todayby Melanie Cohen, who grew up
with parents who were drug usersand had a dysfunctional family
life.
She is here not only as aspecialist in this area, but
also someone who's lived throughthe reality of navigating life
in a hoarded home.
That lived experience gives hera unique perspective on the
(01:13):
emotional, the hidden, and alsothe resilience that can come
from it.
Together, we're going to talkabout what it's really like to
grow up in that environment, themisunderstandings about
hoarding, and how hoarding ispossible for both individuals
and families.
Welcome, Melanie.
Amy, thank you for having me.
Oh, you're very welcome.
(01:34):
I'm happy to have you here.
So can you tell me a little bitabout when you knew there was
hoarding going on?
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
I didn't know it as hoarding until adulthood,
although, you know, hoarding'sonly been coined in the last 30
years.
So what was going on before wasprobably just like messy people
or things like that.
In fact, I remember above mymother's desk, which her desk
was one of those places that wasvery messy, like a comic from
(02:03):
maybe the New Yorker that showeda messy desk, and it was like a
messy desk is the sign ofgenius.
And so I which for surepermitted that to happen, you
know, like it made it okay.
My dad was a or is a chemicalengineer and an applied
physicist, and he always had anoffice at home.
He was always consulting forother companies, and his desk
(02:28):
also piled high with paper.
And in fact, so much so that hehad bought like a circle, like a
semicircle banquet table to putin the office, in addition to
his desk.
So he had all the paperaccessible to him.
So I think the hoarding that Isaw growing up was in
(02:50):
relationship to that.
It wasn't other stuff.
It wasn't China and crystal andclothing and other things that
we often associate withhoarders.
That came much later.
I said there was drug use.
My parents were hippies in the60s and they studied science and
they were, you know, cool andsmoked pot.
And my dad sold pot on the sidea little extra money for the
(03:12):
special things in life, but heended up with a failed business.
My parents went bankrupt.
They lost their home, myfather's car, the business.
I was in college when there wasthis was happening.
I went to college 3,000 milesaway from home.
I think I knew get out of Dodge.
It was like everyone had toldme, go, go wherever you want to,
(03:36):
explore and learn the world.
And there was something in methat told me, like, get out of
town.
And so while I was in college,my father went to rehab numerous
times before it hit, and mymother was left with nothing.
She went on Section Eight and onwelfare.
And I was kicked out of schoolbecause my parents hadn't been
(03:57):
paying.
And so I finished two and threequarters of years of college
before, like literally the rugwas just ripped out from under
me.
My parents lived in a very largeNew York City apartment.
And all of a sudden, my mother'sthings were at my grandmother's
(04:18):
house and at her boyfriend'shome and in the small apartment
that she could afford.
And so when my husband and I gotmarried and subsequently moved
back to New York, I was at herapartment with my baby and I saw
a clutter, but I still didn'tunderstand it.
(04:38):
Like in my head, it was becauseshe had gone from like a 2,300
square foot apartment to like400 square foot of space, and
that she had too much stuff.
She didn't have too much stuff.
She had too much stuff for thespace.
So in my head, you know, whenshe's been working for a few
years, or when my dad pays herback money that he owes her,
(04:58):
she'll find a bigger place andthen have enough room for her
stuff.
But that didn't really happen.
When she did get a bigger space,she still didn't get rid of
anything.
And that has now grown.
And so what I know working as aclutter coach now, that so much
(05:18):
of that high-level hoardingcomes from trauma.
Everything I just said was ahuge trauma, but also comes from
OCD.
And it wasn't until morerecently that while my mother
has not been officiallydiagnosed as someone with OCD,
she has all the markers.
(05:39):
And I think perhaps thediagnosis hasn't come because
she hasn't been a hundredpercent upfront with her doctors
in really explaining what'sgoing on.
Like they don't know there'shoarding going on.
And my mother isn't living amessy life.
She's living a hoarded life.
The OCD has shown up in in manyways in my life growing up, but
(06:03):
because it's both trauma andOCD, I see how much harder it is
for her to address what's goingon around her.
I know that was a long story toanswer a simple question.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
No, that was great.
So I was wondering how does thataffect your relationship with
your parents now?
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
So I convinced my mom somewhere around 10 years
ago that it was finally time forme to start going to the doctor
with her.
She's an aging woman.
I should be aware of all of themedical issues.
My mother is what I thoughtperhaps was agoraphobic growing
up, only to discover hergastrointestinal issues were
really what made her afraid toleave the house.
(06:44):
I get it, because I now havesome of those issues.
Mine are more under control thanhers are.
And so I went to the doctor andI made a big mistake.
I said, wait, there's one morething I'd like to address.
I think we need to address thefact that my mother is a
hoarder.
And my mother like flew off thetable.
(07:05):
She just was so angry.
And the doctor said somethingthat she should say.
And it was, well, let's notlabel anything right now.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthis.
And my mother, much to hercredit, said, Yeah, there's a
big mess that I live in.
And I just, I'm too tired toaddress it.
And I just need help cleaning.
(07:26):
And the doctor turned to me andsaid, Could you help?
And I said, Of course I canhelp.
I want to help.
And I wasn't given thatopportunity.
I think once I said hoarding, mymother shut me out because she
was afraid that I was judgingand shaming and embarrassing
her.
And I understand all of that.
The reality is that clutter iswe are embarrassed and ashamed
(07:51):
by that stuff.
And as someone who once weighedover 200 pounds, I have that
same relationship to my body.
It's embarrassing and shaming toaddress challenges with weight.
And so they're very tightlyconnected.
It wasn't until last year thatshe finally let me in her house.
(08:13):
And a lot of things needed to goand get into motion to make that
happen.
One of them, I think, is justthat now that I work as a
clutter expert, she trusts me alittle bit more.
And seeing me work with otherpeople or hearing the stories
lets her see that I don't gointo anyone's home and embarrass
(08:33):
them and shame them for what isaround them.
And I think that opened her up alittle bit.
And then the last thing thatopened her up, the same with my
dad, was saying wonderful wordsthat an organ organizer friend
of mine put in my mouth.
And it was, we've got twochoices here.
(08:53):
We can either fix this now, andthen when you're gone, like as
soon as you're gone, we canstart honoring you.
We can listen to your favoritemusic and eat your favorite food
and do your favorite things andtell stories and just
memorialize you minute one.
Or we don't take care of it.
It's only going to get worse.
And then when you're gone, we'renot going to be honoring you.
(09:15):
We're going to be cursing youout because we're going to be so
frustrated by how much we'regoing to need to get done that
won't end up costing us afortune in maintaining your
apartment for more months thanwe should.
When I said this to my father,he was like working on it right
away.
He was like, no, this is notwhat I want to leave for them,
(09:36):
which is amazing considering howmuch he how much chaos he
created in the past.
My mother, it took a little bitlonger.
We work in very small amountsoccasionally.
We try to be there every week,and it usually ends up being
only once or twice a month.
So it's going to be a slowprogress.
But there's progress.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
That's great.
That's wonderful.
So she didn't shut you outpermanently.
She just shut you out for thatday.
She shut me out for a long time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
It was just, yeah, it was for a long time.
It was just that first weweren't allowed at her place for
a while.
And the reason we knew about themess was on multiple visits.
We live in New York City and onmultiple visits to seeing my
grandparents in Florida, someonewould have to take care of her
cat or cats, depending on howmany she had at the time.
(10:29):
So we knew what it looked like.
And it got to the point whereshe let my husband in but didn't
let me in.
And my husband's very easygoingand kind and warm.
He is the calm to my excitable.
And so I'm sure she felt muchsafer having him in the
environment.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
She probably also cares more about what you think.
Um, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
So do you actually work with any hoarders?
She and one other are the onlyhoarders that I work with.
I typically work with women whoare in the middle of life, you
know, somewhere in their late30s to early 60s, who are in the
middle of everything, in themiddle of raising kids and aging
parents, in the middle of acareer, in the middle of
(11:16):
starting a business, in themiddle of our bodies doing all
these crazy things.
And so, in that work, I addressmore of the mental clutter
associated with our lives thanthe physical clutter, the
digital clutter and the calendarclutter and the 24-hour news
cycle clutter and social mediaclutter and work clutter and all
(11:38):
of those things, which oftenlead to physical clutter and
physical clutter then makes allof that clutter worse.
So I have a lot of people cometo me and they just think that
there's a little problem anddon't think they have clutter.
And once we sit down and talkabout it, we realize like
there's a horde in our head thatwe're not addressing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
Wow.
What kind of feelings come withthat?
Do you think for people?
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
It's heavy.
It's heavy.
I had clutter.
I just I didn't realize it wasclutter because it looks so much
better than my mother's home.
I didn't realize like how muchmy environment was affecting my
physical and mental health.
I did understand it because whenI went to her home, I was so
(12:21):
overwhelmed.
And I was so anxious.
And it did make me veryuncomfortable.
And it took me time to calm downfrom that.
I didn't realize that it washappening in my own home too.
And by no means, I have peoplewho, when I talk to them about
this, they're like, I was atyour house so many times.
I didn't, it didn't lookcluttered to me.
(12:42):
And I was like, well, sure.
Because I got really good athiding it, cramming it under
beds and in closets and indrawers.
And I also think that oneperson's clutter is another
person's clean.
And one person's clean is stillsomeone's clutter that we all
have, we all have a differentthreshold.
But I also feel like it's alsolike what you desire.
(13:05):
Like I work and with and knowminimalists.
I have no all the clutter thatI've let go, no interest in
being a minimalist.
I love colors and patterns andtextures and things, and I love
books and pictures.
It's just a matter ofrecognizing that everything in
our environment has energy.
(13:27):
And things have good energy andbad energy.
If it has good energy, like evenif it feels like it's too much,
like keep it, love it,appreciate it, use it, look at
it, whatever it is.
And if it doesn't have goodenergy, it doesn't matter who it
belonged to, how much it costyou, who gifted it to you,
whether there's fear it mightneed to be replaced.
(13:49):
If it's not got good energy,it's gotta go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Yeah.
My problem is sometimes thingshave good energy and they still
gotta go.
It's just not enough room foreverything.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
Like this is I live in a New York City apartment.
I hear you.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yeah.
All right.
So hoarding is something that alot of people see on reality TV
shows.
And what do you think they getwrong from seeing those shows in
what it's like in reality?
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
I think some of the shows have done a decent job of
communicating.
This isn't something someonedesires.
Like no one woke up one morningand said, you know, it'd be
cool.
I want to be a hoarder.
I think they've done a decentjob of that.
I don't think they've done agood enough job really doing a
deep dive in understanding wherethe hoarding is coming from,
(14:41):
really understanding trauma,really understanding things like
OCD.
I use those two, deepdepression, other extreme mood
changes can all be behind that.
And this overwhelming need forperfection can get in the way,
which is related to OCD, but notexactly the same.
(15:03):
Because someone, and this iswhat I see in my mother and in
so many people, is there reallyis this desire for everything to
be clean and neat.
The desire is strong.
But the feeling is, well, I wantthat.
So I have to go get that.
And what they're talking aboutis something that's so far away.
(15:24):
And because it's so far away,it's very overwhelming.
I don't even know where tostart.
Do I start with this drawer orthat cabinet or and I'll just do
it all on Saturday?
And Saturday rolls around, andyou don't know where to start,
you don't know how to getstarted.
And as a result, it's so mucheasier to say, you know what, I
can't deal with it today.
I'll deal with it tomorrow.
And tomorrow becomes tomorrow,and tomorrow becomes next week
and next month and next year.
(15:45):
And then all of a sudden, whatmay have been a small problem
now is really a great bigproblem.
And I want people to understandthat, like you just can't walk
in and do it all in one fellswoop the way they do it on the
shows.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I always think that's a littleunrealistic.
So tell me a little bit abouthow your mom's doing now.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
She's appreciative, which is amazing.
And she has a willingness to letthings go.
That's incredible.
I can't even begin to tell youhow much clothing we've brought
into different consignmentstores and how many books we've
put in free libraries.
We've had many stoop sales.
I say stoop sale for I don'tknow where your listeners
(16:31):
typically listen in from, but inNew York we don't have yard
sales, we have stoop sales.
Where we've sold jewelry ofhers, and I'm Jewish, the only
way I know how to say is likeTchotchkis, How's Ride, like
Thingamajs, like all of thestuff.
And it is amazing how much thereis.
So it's the papers that I thinkthat are gonna take time.
(16:54):
Oh, she was so proud of herselflast week.
Someone in one of our buynothing groups on Facebook had a
collection of nationalgeographics that they were
trying to unload.
And I couldn't believe how manypeople were like, Oh, I'll take
it, I'll take it.
I was like, Oh my god, my motherhas like 10 years of National
Geographic from the 90s.
And I messaged her and said, Ihave people who are interested.
(17:17):
And she was like, Melanie, youtold me that I should get rid of
the magazines, and I did.
Wow.
But apparently I told her thatlast year, and she had done it
last year, and like for somereason it hadn't clicked.
I think there's still so much inher home that it's hard to
remember.
Like, did I see that last timeor was it the time before that?
(17:39):
So she's just so proud ofherself that she got rid of the
magazines, which to me was anopportunity to like, you're
right, mom, that's great.
I can't believe I forgot that.
What a big thing for you.
Like overdoing it, like if Iwere working with my kids when
they were younger at home orsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
So, yeah, so it's a very different experience now.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Has she stopped bringing stuff in?
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
I think so.
I think so.
I think, you know, one of thethings that we talked about
trauma and OCD being bigdrivers, but age is a big driver
too.
And when we talk about thingshaving energy, for so many of
us, our things are like proof oflife, you know, my gymnastics
medals or my letterman's jacketor my yearbooks.
(18:25):
And I know all of that soundedvery school-like, but I think,
you know, you know what I mean,like in terms of proof of life.
So the more like we recognizeour mortality, the harder it is
to let those things go becauseit's like our attachment to who
we were once or who we are now.
And I see more of a willingnesson her part to let go of some of
(18:49):
those things.
But it's still so hard.
Like, I don't want anybody tothink, whether it's high-level
hoarding, low-level hoarding, orsomewhere in between, that it's
not as easy to let something goas looking at looking at a thing
and saying, we really don't needthis anymore.
And then letting it go.
(19:10):
There's like 50 differentquestions we need to ask
ourselves in order to feelcomfortable with making that
decision.
Let it go and keep it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Well, and I've had a friend from years ago, haven't
seen her in a long time, so Idon't know how they're doing
now, but she had a husband whohoarded.
And she would get the place allclean again, and he would just
bring more stuff in and morestuff in.
How do you help someone likethat?
SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
Well, I think for starters, we have to recognize
that the clutter isn't theproblem.
It's the symptom of the problem.
And so if you go in and cleansomeone's house out and make it
perfect without them being apart of it, they'll bring it
back in.
That they really need to be apartner in that.
(20:00):
If they can be, I recognize thatin some cases, clutter is
dangerous for a host of reasons,whether it's paper and fire or
one of the other ways we wereable to convince my mom that we
needed to start decluttering washey, guess what?
If the fire department has tocome or a paramedic has to come
because you've fallen, or you'rehaving a medical emergency, they
(20:23):
have to be able to get into yourapartment.
And so a lot of clutter doesn'tget addressed until after the
emergency has happened.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
That makes perfect sense.
So, what has helped you feelbetter or feel safe now that
you're in your own home?
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Well, that's a loaded question.
I mean, one is creating a spacethat makes me feel good.
And one of the things that I'velearned is I am more heavily
affected by clutter than myhusband is.
But the reality is in theresearch, it shows that women
are like three times more likelyto be stressed by stuff than men
(21:05):
are.
But he gets it when I explain tohim.
So this is how this makes mefeel.
So he is more helpful inremoving the clutter.
We also got maybe a little luckythis summer.
We finally became empty nestersor second daughter, moved out.
And so the space that I'm in forthe listeners, beautiful purple
(21:26):
walls that I chose.
This is now my office, whichmeans there's more room.
We didn't bring more stuff in,we just renegotiated space.
I lie.
We did bring new stuff in.
I brought in curtains and Ibrought in a rug and I brought
in a new lamp and a new desk, anew chair, and everything
(21:50):
secondhand.
I'm a huge proponent ofsustainability and giving things
a second life.
And that's one of the thingsthat helped with my mom was
letting her know, you know what,if you're getting rid of this
scarf, this necklace orwhatever, it doesn't mean it
dies.
We're gonna give it a secondlife.
Someone else is now going to beable to enjoy it.
Well, maybe in exactly the sameway, or maybe very different
(22:11):
ways they were.
That scarf was something younever would have worn it with
before.
So I appreciate having beengiven the space, but we still
live in a New York Cityapartment.
It's still a small space, but wejust we work faster, we work
more productively, we work withless stress when there isn't a
(22:32):
lot of stuff around us.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I love your concept of giving things a second life.
So, how do you help people?
What would you say about thatwhole do I just throw it away,
give it away, or donate?
Give it to a friend, have agarage sell, donate it.
Do you just see what's quickest?
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
It depends on the person.
It really depends on the person.
I think it depends on how muchthere is to let go, the
condition of the stuff.
I know the greatest question isthere's someone else that can
use this, and who is thatperson?
And it may be you're ready toget rid of a coat, and there was
this one person who every timeyou wore it complimented you.
(23:16):
Maybe that person would like thecoat.
And then the second life is onethat you actually almost get to
see.
Books to me are fairly I have tobe careful how I say that
because my husband's a bookcollector and I love busts.
I said that I love books, and soit's not necessarily easy to let
them go, but it is easy to havea place for them to go to when
(23:37):
you're ready to let them go,especially.
I don't know about where youlive, but there are those little
put free libraries in front ofpeople's homes all over the
place.
And so because libraries won'ttake them anymore, but that's
fine.
There are all these littlelibraries, and we know in our
neighborhood there's one that'slike specifically for cookbooks.
I love that.
There's ones that focus more onchildren's books.
(24:00):
We have a friend in theneighborhood who's very
political and he really tries tokeep everything like really
radical and interesting andspicy to you know politics and
the world and history.
So I love that.
When it comes to some things,though, it's broken.
Someone else doesn't want it ifit's broken.
Unless, of course, you know it'sa piece of tech and there's a
(24:22):
school in your area that has thekids take computers apart and
take broken things and try tofix them, then someone wants
your broken stuff.
So it's asking a lot ofquestions about something's
worth and not having judgmentassigned to it either.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
What would you recommend to someone like I
talked about, my friend earlier,who her husband is the hoarder
and she's not?
How does she figure out what'scausing it for her husband?
Just recommend he goes totherapy or I I think it yes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
The question is, how responsive is he going to be to
that?
Some are more responsive thanothers.
But I think it takes like areally calm sit-down, not to
say, I think you have a problem,because the minute you tell
someone I think you have aproblem, that like la la la, I
can't hear you anymore, they arenot paying attention.
(25:20):
So better to say, there'ssomething I want to talk to you
about, and it's veryuncomfortable for me.
And it's creating stress andanxiety.
And I need you to know what itis about, and then maybe we can
talk about how we find help foreach other.
Make it a combined thing.
This isn't your problem and youneed to take care of it, but
(25:43):
rather this is something I wouldlike us to work on together.
How can I support you in usmaking that change?
It could be simple, like, Ididn't realize it was such a big
problem.
I didn't realize it affected youthat way, or it could cause a
super big fight, you know.
Well, that's your problem, notmy problem.
(26:03):
Your problem is my problem inour relationship.
Period.
End of story.
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
Definitely, definitely.
What do you think we've missedtoday?
Is there anything that you'dlike to share with people?
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Well, I think my poor mother, we tore her apart.
We didn't we didn't tear myfather apart enough.
So let me do that for a moment.
Oh, you go ahead.
So my dad's clutter is differentthan my mom's.
My dad was a scientist and hehas a patent or two to his name,
and he built chemical plantsback in the 70s.
And so he has boxes of paper.
(26:40):
Boxes of paper that he thinkswholeheartedly are important
because there may be, I don'tknow, I'm going to make it up as
I go along, some chemicalequation or some blueprint or
some mathematical equationthat's in there that he'll never
be able to generate again.
And my dad is closer to 80 thanhe is to 79, and he still works
(27:01):
full-time, and that stuff isstill important to him.
And there's a reminder everyonce in a while, well, a lot of
that stuff actually is on theinternet now.
Like that thing that you didn'thave when you were first doing
this work 40, 50, 60 years ago.
And I think it's important forpeople in that situation to be
(27:24):
given the support in sortingthrough that stuff.
There's a lot of scanning thatneeds to happen, but there's
also just a lot of shreddingthat needs to happen.
And something that I tell mydad's in Florida, and so he has
these boxes of paper, and I say,So, Dad, what would happen if
(27:47):
the hurricane was so bad thatall of that paper got destroyed?
What would you do then?
Oh, you know, I don't need toborrow trouble, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
I get it.
You like, you don't want to jinxit or something.
You don't want to even put likethat that idea out in the ether.
(28:07):
But the reality is, if you tookon water, you would lose all of
that.
I mean, the same could happen,you know, God forbid, none of
this should happen in a fire.
I lived in Southern Californiaduring a major earthquake and
earthquake damage so much ofwhat you own.
We've seen terrible things.
(28:27):
We have friends who lost theirhomes in the fires earlier this
year.
And it makes you realize howunimportant the things are and
how important the people are.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
Oh, definitely.
Definitely.
So I'm wondering when you talkabout your dad being close to 80
and having all the paper, ifthat's a generational thing that
we won't deal with anymore asour children grow up.
SPEAKER_01 (28:53):
I mean, it's interesting because he's a
science guy, he's pretty techsavvy, you know.
I mean, he still uses an AOLaccount.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
So I didn't even know that was a thing.
Like it's I don't want to singleanybody out with an AOL account.
However, my dad's got an AOLaccount.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
But he also has email on his business email and
stuff like that.
In his case, I don't know ifit's like not being able to be
technically savvy enough.
Although maybe it's just similarto my mom in I need to take the
time to, or that's not what Imeant to say.
(29:33):
What I meant to say was, I needhelp in getting this done
because it's so overwhelming.
It's such a massive project.
And so, yeah.
He's asked me to come help himwith it, but the first time he
asked, I said no because I didthe legwork on having a shredder
(29:55):
truck come to the house.
When I heard how many boxes itwas, I was like, for a couple
hundred dollars.
They'll come to you, they'lltake the paper, they'll shred it
in front of you so you can seeit and then take it away.
He's like, Well, I'm not gettingrid of all of it just like that.
And I said, Then you're notready for me to come down and
help you.
You need to be ready to do that.
So he's been working on it onhis own.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
Such an attachment.
Yeah.
I can't even imagine.
So what do you think aboutpeople with ADHD?
Do you think that that executivefunctioning, like you were
talking about earlier, is partof that?
For me, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
For me, totally.
I think all of all of it, youknow, ADHD, depression, anxiety,
other kinds of mood disorders,you know, all that makes our
brains function a littledifferently makes the clutter a
little bit harder becausethere's an assumption that we
need to address it the same wayeverybody else does.
(30:54):
Well, what makes me uniquelymeans that I'm going to need a
unique approach.
There isn't a one size fits allto decluttering.
And I think that clutter coachesthat do have a one size fits all
are going to end up with clientsfor whom it's not going to go as
smoothly as it potentially can.
You really need to know whoyou're working with above and
(31:17):
beyond what their needs are.
Like it is important to knowthose things.
And, you know, moms of youngchildren who may not have ADD,
but they're sleep deprived and amess of things, that's going to
affect your executive functionfor those of us who are either
in periomenopause or as I am nowin menopause.
(31:40):
Our brains are also doing allthese really crazy things that
they weren't doing 20 years ago.
And so we also need to take thatinto consideration, whether it's
the ability to focus or how longyou can focus for, or what you
want to focus on, all of thatplays a significant role.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Right.
So if somebody wants to workwith you, is it something you
have to do in person or can youactually be on Zoom and help
people?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
I've done both.
And it's actually kind of funwhen we do it via Zoom.
I've had clients who we've metweekly and they've given me like
a tour of the space and showedme what they wanted to work on,
whether they thought they werecapable of it or not.
And we would talk a little bitabout where did the clutter come
from?
Why is it so hard to let it go?
(32:29):
What's getting in the way, notyou're getting in the way, but
what is actually getting in theway set goals.
So when working with clients, Iknow that I have to lean into
one of my favorite statements,and that is ridiculously simple
goals.
And when I say ridiculouslysimple, I mean like so little
that you're afraid that if youtold someone else that was your
(32:52):
goal, they'd be like, that's nota goal, you could do it in a
minute.
But that's the perfect goalbecause that's the one you can
do it, you accomplish itquickly, it feels good, you can
pat yourself on the back, you'remotivated and inspired to do
more.
And most importantly, feelconfident in your ability to do
more.
So when if I'm sitting down witha client and they say, Well,
(33:14):
this week I want to work on thecloset, I might narrow it down
and say, What part of the closetdo you want to work on?
Do you want to work on thehanging things?
Do you want to work on somethingthat's on a shelf up above or
the things that are on thefloor?
Or maybe it's a category ofthings.
Maybe it's the shirts, maybeit's the socks.
I think people are afraid to setgoals that are that small
(33:38):
because it doesn't really soundadmirable or something like
that.
And I think those are the mostadmirable goals.
Because if you set the bowl ofsocks and you do the socks,
you're gonna do something elsebecause it was like, well, that
was easy.
I could do another 10 minutes, Icould do another 15 minutes.
Yeah.
And then more stuff gets done.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Instead, I think because people think they do
have to have a bigger goal, theydo things like clear out the
whole closet.
And then they're like, oh myGod, now I have this huge mess.
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
I know that there are a lot of clutter experts
that are like, take it all outand sort it and all the things.
That's great if you know forsure that you're gonna dedicate
eight hours to it.
But if you're not gonna dedicateeight hours to it, then you
can't take everything out andsort everything because it's
just gonna make it worse.
(34:31):
At the end of the day, whenyou're still looking at these
piles, stress you out, orthey're gonna depress you, and
then you're not sleeping well.
And my history is well, if theclutter is stressing you out,
something's gotta take care ofthe stress.
Food, alcohol, cigarettes,shopping for more things, all of
the things that give you areally quick dopamine hit will
(34:51):
make you feel better, but theclutter's still there.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Right.
Amen.
Boy.
So if people want to work withyou, where do they find you?
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
They can find me on literally every social media
platform as Melanie Cohen or mycompany Thoughtfully Coaching.
Best way to reach me is atthoughtfullycoaching.com.
I do a free 30-minute discoverysession and which offer to
everybody.
And yeah, I also do groupcorporate wellness coaching
(35:22):
that's not necessarilyaddressing the clutter in your
closet, but addressing theclutter at the desk in your
briefcase, in the car, and allof the mental clutter.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Right.
Yeah, I personally have a bigproblem with my computer
clutter.
It's I had to buy an extra thingto put stuff on that was on my
computer because I didn't haveany space anymore.
And I'm like, some of these areduplicates and triplicates, and
I don't need all this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
So you know, when they first coined hoarders, it
was the early 90s.
I think it came out of SmithCollege, a professor and working
with someone on their seniorthesis, and it became something
that they didn't expect it wasgoing to become in terms of like
how many people out thereactually were facing the
challenges of hoarding.
(36:11):
But in the early 90s, when theywere talking about hoarding,
they were talking about stuff.
Yeah.
They didn't have social media,they didn't have digital
libraries of 20,000 photos fromthe past couple of years,
because there are six photos ofall the same people in the same
place, but one person has theireyes closed and the other
(36:32):
person's looking it away, andsomeone else has their finger up
their nose or whatever.
And instead of deleting andkeeping only one, they're all
there.
It's just all of these differentaspects of clutter in our lives
that none of us ever reallyanticipated being an issue,
ever.
SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
Yeah, it's a whole new world.
unknown (36:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
All right.
Well, Melanie, thank you so muchfor coming on and discussing
such a sensitive topic.
I appreciate it.
No, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And I will put all yourinformation in the show notes so
people can find you.
Excellent.
Thank you for being here, forlistening, and for holding space
for conversations just likethis.
(37:14):
Ones that aren't always easy butdeeply needed.
If this episode made you feelseen, understood, or reminded
you that you're not the only onewalking through hard things.
I'd be so grateful if you'dleave a review, share it with a
friend, or just reach out andlet me know you were here.
And if you want more supportlike this, real talk, soulful
(37:36):
tools, and reminders that youare not alone, you can join my
newsletter atadvancingwithany.com.
It's where I send the kind ofstuff that helps you keep going
when life feels heavy.
Keep advancing, lawyer.
You're doing better than youthink.
Did you grow up when they were hoarding or was it
after you were grown?
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
There were hoarding tendencies or you know, the
signs that hoarding would be anissue later.
But I didn't experience orreally understand.
I guess my dad hop has hoardedpaper my whole life, but I don't
think I really saw it until theyboth went through their divorce
(00:27):
and all the other subsequentstuff that happened.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Welcome back, lawyers.
Today we're shining a light on atopic that doesn't get talked
about nearly enough.
Hoarding.
It's a word that often comeswith judgment, shame, or even
sensationalized TV shows.
But the truth is, hoardingaffects entire families, not
just the person struggling withit.
(00:51):
I'm honored to be joined todayby Melanie Cohen, who grew up
with parents who were drug usersand had a dysfunctional family
life.
She is here not only as aspecialist in this area, but
also someone who's lived throughthe reality of navigating life
in a hoarded home.
That lived experience gives hera unique perspective on the
(01:13):
emotional, the hidden, and alsothe resilience that can come
from it.
Together, we're going to talkabout what it's really like to
grow up in that environment, themisunderstandings about
hoarding, and how hoarding ispossible for both individuals
and families.
Welcome, Melanie.
Amy, thank you for having me.
Oh, you're very welcome.
(01:34):
I'm happy to have you here.
So can you tell me a little bitabout when you knew there was
hoarding going on?
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
I didn't know it as hoarding until adulthood,
although, you know, hoarding'sonly been coined in the last 30
years.
So what was going on before wasprobably just like messy people
or things like that.
In fact, I remember above mymother's desk, which her desk
was one of those places that wasvery messy, like a comic from
(02:03):
maybe the New Yorker that showeda messy desk, and it was like a
messy desk is the sign ofgenius.
And so I which for surepermitted that to happen, you
know, like it made it okay.
My dad was a or is a chemicalengineer and an applied
physicist, and he always had anoffice at home.
He was always consulting forother companies, and his desk
(02:28):
also piled high with paper.
And in fact, so much so that hehad bought like a circle, like a
semicircle banquet table to putin the office, in addition to
his desk.
So he had all the paperaccessible to him.
So I think the hoarding that Isaw growing up was in
(02:50):
relationship to that.
It wasn't other stuff.
It wasn't China and crystal andclothing and other things that
we often associate withhoarders.
That came much later.
I said there was drug use.
My parents were hippies in the60s and they studied science and
they were, you know, cool andsmoked pot.
And my dad sold pot on the sidea little extra money for the
(03:12):
special things in life, but heended up with a failed business.
My parents went bankrupt.
They lost their home, myfather's car, the business.
I was in college when there wasthis was happening.
I went to college 3,000 milesaway from home.
I think I knew get out of Dodge.
It was like everyone had toldme, go, go wherever you want to,
(03:36):
explore and learn the world.
And there was something in methat told me, like, get out of
town.
And so while I was in college,my father went to rehab numerous
times before it hit, and mymother was left with nothing.
She went on Section Eight and onwelfare.
And I was kicked out of schoolbecause my parents hadn't been
(03:57):
paying.
And so I finished two and threequarters of years of college
before, like literally the rugwas just ripped out from under
me.
My parents lived in a very largeNew York City apartment.
And all of a sudden, my mother'sthings were at my grandmother's
(04:18):
house and at her boyfriend'shome and in the small apartment
that she could afford.
And so when my husband and I gotmarried and subsequently moved
back to New York, I was at herapartment with my baby and I saw
a clutter, but I still didn'tunderstand it.
(04:38):
Like in my head, it was becauseshe had gone from like a 2,300
square foot apartment to like400 square foot of space, and
that she had too much stuff.
She didn't have too much stuff.
She had too much stuff for thespace.
So in my head, you know, whenshe's been working for a few
years, or when my dad pays herback money that he owes her,
(04:58):
she'll find a bigger place andthen have enough room for her
stuff.
But that didn't really happen.
When she did get a bigger space,she still didn't get rid of
anything.
And that has now grown.
And so what I know working as aclutter coach now, that so much
(05:18):
of that high-level hoardingcomes from trauma.
Everything I just said was ahuge trauma, but also comes from
OCD.
And it wasn't until morerecently that while my mother
has not been officiallydiagnosed as someone with OCD,
she has all the markers.
(05:39):
And I think perhaps thediagnosis hasn't come because
she hasn't been a hundredpercent upfront with her doctors
in really explaining what'sgoing on.
Like they don't know there'shoarding going on.
And my mother isn't living amessy life.
She's living a hoarded life.
The OCD has shown up in in manyways in my life growing up, but
(06:03):
because it's both trauma andOCD, I see how much harder it is
for her to address what's goingon around her.
I know that was a long story toanswer a simple question.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
No, that was great.
So I was wondering how does thataffect your relationship with
your parents now?
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
So I convinced my mom somewhere around 10 years
ago that it was finally time forme to start going to the doctor
with her.
She's an aging woman.
I should be aware of all of themedical issues.
My mother is what I thoughtperhaps was agoraphobic growing
up, only to discover hergastrointestinal issues were
really what made her afraid toleave the house.
(06:44):
I get it, because I now havesome of those issues.
Mine are more under control thanhers are.
And so I went to the doctor andI made a big mistake.
I said, wait, there's one morething I'd like to address.
I think we need to address thefact that my mother is a
hoarder.
And my mother like flew off thetable.
(07:05):
She just was so angry.
And the doctor said somethingthat she should say.
And it was, well, let's notlabel anything right now.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthis.
And my mother, much to hercredit, said, Yeah, there's a
big mess that I live in.
And I just, I'm too tired toaddress it.
And I just need help cleaning.
(07:26):
And the doctor turned to me andsaid, Could you help?
And I said, Of course I canhelp.
I want to help.
And I wasn't given thatopportunity.
I think once I said hoarding, mymother shut me out because she
was afraid that I was judgingand shaming and embarrassing
her.
And I understand all of that.
The reality is that clutter iswe are embarrassed and ashamed
(07:51):
by that stuff.
And as someone who once weighedover 200 pounds, I have that
same relationship to my body.
It's embarrassing and shaming toaddress challenges with weight.
And so they're very tightlyconnected.
It wasn't until last year thatshe finally let me in her house.
(08:13):
And a lot of things needed to goand get into motion to make that
happen.
One of them, I think, is justthat now that I work as a
clutter expert, she trusts me alittle bit more.
And seeing me work with otherpeople or hearing the stories
lets her see that I don't gointo anyone's home and embarrass
(08:33):
them and shame them for what isaround them.
And I think that opened her up alittle bit.
And then the last thing thatopened her up, the same with my
dad, was saying wonderful wordsthat an organ organizer friend
of mine put in my mouth.
And it was, we've got twochoices here.
(08:53):
We can either fix this now, andthen when you're gone, like as
soon as you're gone, we canstart honoring you.
We can listen to your favoritemusic and eat your favorite food
and do your favorite things andtell stories and just
memorialize you minute one.
Or we don't take care of it.
It's only going to get worse.
And then when you're gone, we'renot going to be honoring you.
(09:15):
We're going to be cursing youout because we're going to be so
frustrated by how much we'regoing to need to get done that
won't end up costing us afortune in maintaining your
apartment for more months thanwe should.
When I said this to my father,he was like working on it right
away.
He was like, no, this is notwhat I want to leave for them,
(09:36):
which is amazing considering howmuch he how much chaos he
created in the past.
My mother, it took a little bitlonger.
We work in very small amountsoccasionally.
We try to be there every week,and it usually ends up being
only once or twice a month.
So it's going to be a slowprogress.
But there's progress.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
That's great.
That's wonderful.
So she didn't shut you outpermanently.
She just shut you out for thatday.
She shut me out for a long time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
It was just, yeah, it was for a long time.
It was just that first weweren't allowed at her place for
a while.
And the reason we knew about themess was on multiple visits.
We live in New York City and onmultiple visits to seeing my
grandparents in Florida, someonewould have to take care of her
cat or cats, depending on howmany she had at the time.
(10:29):
So we knew what it looked like.
And it got to the point whereshe let my husband in but didn't
let me in.
And my husband's very easygoingand kind and warm.
He is the calm to my excitable.
And so I'm sure she felt muchsafer having him in the
environment.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
She probably also cares more about what you think.
Um, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
So do you actually work with any hoarders?
She and one other are the onlyhoarders that I work with.
I typically work with women whoare in the middle of life, you
know, somewhere in their late30s to early 60s, who are in the
middle of everything, in themiddle of raising kids and aging
parents, in the middle of acareer, in the middle of
(11:16):
starting a business, in themiddle of our bodies doing all
these crazy things.
And so, in that work, I addressmore of the mental clutter
associated with our lives thanthe physical clutter, the
digital clutter and the calendarclutter and the 24-hour news
cycle clutter and social mediaclutter and work clutter and all
(11:38):
of those things, which oftenlead to physical clutter and
physical clutter then makes allof that clutter worse.
So I have a lot of people cometo me and they just think that
there's a little problem anddon't think they have clutter.
And once we sit down and talkabout it, we realize like
there's a horde in our head thatwe're not addressing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
Wow.
What kind of feelings come withthat?
Do you think for people?
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
It's heavy.
It's heavy.
I had clutter.
I just I didn't realize it wasclutter because it looks so much
better than my mother's home.
I didn't realize like how muchmy environment was affecting my
physical and mental health.
I did understand it because whenI went to her home, I was so
(12:21):
overwhelmed.
And I was so anxious.
And it did make me veryuncomfortable.
And it took me time to calm downfrom that.
I didn't realize that it washappening in my own home too.
And by no means, I have peoplewho, when I talk to them about
this, they're like, I was atyour house so many times.
I didn't, it didn't lookcluttered to me.
(12:42):
And I was like, well, sure.
Because I got really good athiding it, cramming it under
beds and in closets and indrawers.
And I also think that oneperson's clutter is another
person's clean.
And one person's clean is stillsomeone's clutter that we all
have, we all have a differentthreshold.
But I also feel like it's alsolike what you desire.
(13:05):
Like I work and with and knowminimalists.
I have no all the clutter thatI've let go, no interest in
being a minimalist.
I love colors and patterns andtextures and things, and I love
books and pictures.
It's just a matter ofrecognizing that everything in
our environment has energy.
(13:27):
And things have good energy andbad energy.
If it has good energy, like evenif it feels like it's too much,
like keep it, love it,appreciate it, use it, look at
it, whatever it is.
And if it doesn't have goodenergy, it doesn't matter who it
belonged to, how much it costyou, who gifted it to you,
whether there's fear it mightneed to be replaced.
(13:49):
If it's not got good energy,it's gotta go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Yeah.
My problem is sometimes thingshave good energy and they still
gotta go.
It's just not enough room foreverything.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
Like this is I live in a New York City apartment.
I hear you.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yeah.
All right.
So hoarding is something that alot of people see on reality TV
shows.
And what do you think they getwrong from seeing those shows in
what it's like in reality?
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
I think some of the shows have done a decent job of
communicating.
This isn't something someonedesires.
Like no one woke up one morningand said, you know, it'd be
cool.
I want to be a hoarder.
I think they've done a decentjob of that.
I don't think they've done agood enough job really doing a
deep dive in understanding wherethe hoarding is coming from,
(14:41):
really understanding trauma,really understanding things like
OCD.
I use those two, deepdepression, other extreme mood
changes can all be behind that.
And this overwhelming need forperfection can get in the way,
which is related to OCD, but notexactly the same.
(15:03):
Because someone, and this iswhat I see in my mother and in
so many people, is there reallyis this desire for everything to
be clean and neat.
The desire is strong.
But the feeling is, well, I wantthat.
So I have to go get that.
And what they're talking aboutis something that's so far away.
(15:24):
And because it's so far away,it's very overwhelming.
I don't even know where tostart.
Do I start with this drawer orthat cabinet or and I'll just do
it all on Saturday?
And Saturday rolls around, andyou don't know where to start,
you don't know how to getstarted.
And as a result, it's so mucheasier to say, you know what, I
can't deal with it today.
I'll deal with it tomorrow.
And tomorrow becomes tomorrow,and tomorrow becomes next week
and next month and next year.
(15:45):
And then all of a sudden, whatmay have been a small problem
now is really a great bigproblem.
And I want people to understandthat, like you just can't walk
in and do it all in one fellswoop the way they do it on the
shows.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I always think that's a littleunrealistic.
So tell me a little bit abouthow your mom's doing now.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
She's appreciative, which is amazing.
And she has a willingness to letthings go.
That's incredible.
I can't even begin to tell youhow much clothing we've brought
into different consignmentstores and how many books we've
put in free libraries.
We've had many stoop sales.
I say stoop sale for I don'tknow where your listeners
(16:31):
typically listen in from, but inNew York we don't have yard
sales, we have stoop sales.
Where we've sold jewelry ofhers, and I'm Jewish, the only
way I know how to say is likeTchotchkis, How's Ride, like
Thingamajs, like all of thestuff.
And it is amazing how much thereis.
So it's the papers that I thinkthat are gonna take time.
(16:54):
Oh, she was so proud of herselflast week.
Someone in one of our buynothing groups on Facebook had a
collection of nationalgeographics that they were
trying to unload.
And I couldn't believe how manypeople were like, Oh, I'll take
it, I'll take it.
I was like, Oh my god, my motherhas like 10 years of National
Geographic from the 90s.
And I messaged her and said, Ihave people who are interested.
(17:17):
And she was like, Melanie, youtold me that I should get rid of
the magazines, and I did.
Wow.
But apparently I told her thatlast year, and she had done it
last year, and like for somereason it hadn't clicked.
I think there's still so much inher home that it's hard to
remember.
Like, did I see that last timeor was it the time before that?
(17:39):
So she's just so proud ofherself that she got rid of the
magazines, which to me was anopportunity to like, you're
right, mom, that's great.
I can't believe I forgot that.
What a big thing for you.
Like overdoing it, like if Iwere working with my kids when
they were younger at home orsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
So, yeah, so it's a very different experience now.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Has she stopped bringing stuff in?
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
I think so.
I think so.
I think, you know, one of thethings that we talked about
trauma and OCD being bigdrivers, but age is a big driver
too.
And when we talk about thingshaving energy, for so many of
us, our things are like proof oflife, you know, my gymnastics
medals or my letterman's jacketor my yearbooks.
(18:25):
And I know all of that soundedvery school-like, but I think,
you know, you know what I mean,like in terms of proof of life.
So the more like we recognizeour mortality, the harder it is
to let those things go becauseit's like our attachment to who
we were once or who we are now.
And I see more of a willingnesson her part to let go of some of
(18:49):
those things.
But it's still so hard.
Like, I don't want anybody tothink, whether it's high-level
hoarding, low-level hoarding, orsomewhere in between, that it's
not as easy to let something goas looking at looking at a thing
and saying, we really don't needthis anymore.
And then letting it go.
(19:10):
There's like 50 differentquestions we need to ask
ourselves in order to feelcomfortable with making that
decision.
Let it go and keep it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Well, and I've had a friend from years ago, haven't
seen her in a long time, so Idon't know how they're doing
now, but she had a husband whohoarded.
And she would get the place allclean again, and he would just
bring more stuff in and morestuff in.
How do you help someone likethat?
SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
Well, I think for starters, we have to recognize
that the clutter isn't theproblem.
It's the symptom of the problem.
And so if you go in and cleansomeone's house out and make it
perfect without them being apart of it, they'll bring it
back in.
That they really need to be apartner in that.
(20:00):
If they can be, I recognize thatin some cases, clutter is
dangerous for a host of reasons,whether it's paper and fire or
one of the other ways we wereable to convince my mom that we
needed to start decluttering washey, guess what?
If the fire department has tocome or a paramedic has to come
because you've fallen, or you'rehaving a medical emergency, they
(20:23):
have to be able to get into yourapartment.
And so a lot of clutter doesn'tget addressed until after the
emergency has happened.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
That makes perfect sense.
So, what has helped you feelbetter or feel safe now that
you're in your own home?
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Well, that's a loaded question.
I mean, one is creating a spacethat makes me feel good.
And one of the things that I'velearned is I am more heavily
affected by clutter than myhusband is.
But the reality is in theresearch, it shows that women
are like three times more likelyto be stressed by stuff than men
(21:05):
are.
But he gets it when I explain tohim.
So this is how this makes mefeel.
So he is more helpful inremoving the clutter.
We also got maybe a little luckythis summer.
We finally became empty nestersor second daughter, moved out.
And so the space that I'm in forthe listeners, beautiful purple
(21:26):
walls that I chose.
This is now my office, whichmeans there's more room.
We didn't bring more stuff in,we just renegotiated space.
I lie.
We did bring new stuff in.
I brought in curtains and Ibrought in a rug and I brought
in a new lamp and a new desk, anew chair, and everything
(21:50):
secondhand.
I'm a huge proponent ofsustainability and giving things
a second life.
And that's one of the thingsthat helped with my mom was
letting her know, you know what,if you're getting rid of this
scarf, this necklace orwhatever, it doesn't mean it
dies.
We're gonna give it a secondlife.
Someone else is now going to beable to enjoy it.
Well, maybe in exactly the sameway, or maybe very different
(22:11):
ways they were.
That scarf was something younever would have worn it with
before.
So I appreciate having beengiven the space, but we still
live in a New York Cityapartment.
It's still a small space, but wejust we work faster, we work
more productively, we work withless stress when there isn't a
(22:32):
lot of stuff around us.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I love your concept of giving things a second life.
So, how do you help people?
What would you say about thatwhole do I just throw it away,
give it away, or donate?
Give it to a friend, have agarage sell, donate it.
Do you just see what's quickest?
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
It depends on the person.
It really depends on the person.
I think it depends on how muchthere is to let go, the
condition of the stuff.
I know the greatest question isthere's someone else that can
use this, and who is thatperson?
And it may be you're ready toget rid of a coat, and there was
this one person who every timeyou wore it complimented you.
(23:16):
Maybe that person would like thecoat.
And then the second life is onethat you actually almost get to
see.
Books to me are fairly I have tobe careful how I say that
because my husband's a bookcollector and I love busts.
I said that I love books, and soit's not necessarily easy to let
them go, but it is easy to havea place for them to go to when
(23:37):
you're ready to let them go,especially.
I don't know about where youlive, but there are those little
put free libraries in front ofpeople's homes all over the
place.
And so because libraries won'ttake them anymore, but that's
fine.
There are all these littlelibraries, and we know in our
neighborhood there's one that'slike specifically for cookbooks.
I love that.
There's ones that focus more onchildren's books.
(24:00):
We have a friend in theneighborhood who's very
political and he really tries tokeep everything like really
radical and interesting andspicy to you know politics and
the world and history.
So I love that.
When it comes to some things,though, it's broken.
Someone else doesn't want it ifit's broken.
Unless, of course, you know it'sa piece of tech and there's a
(24:22):
school in your area that has thekids take computers apart and
take broken things and try tofix them, then someone wants
your broken stuff.
So it's asking a lot ofquestions about something's
worth and not having judgmentassigned to it either.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
What would you recommend to someone like I
talked about, my friend earlier,who her husband is the hoarder
and she's not?
How does she figure out what'scausing it for her husband?
Just recommend he goes totherapy or I I think it yes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
The question is, how responsive is he going to be to
that?
Some are more responsive thanothers.
But I think it takes like areally calm sit-down, not to
say, I think you have a problem,because the minute you tell
someone I think you have aproblem, that like la la la, I
can't hear you anymore, they arenot paying attention.
(25:20):
So better to say, there'ssomething I want to talk to you
about, and it's veryuncomfortable for me.
And it's creating stress andanxiety.
And I need you to know what itis about, and then maybe we can
talk about how we find help foreach other.
Make it a combined thing.
This isn't your problem and youneed to take care of it, but
(25:43):
rather this is something I wouldlike us to work on together.
How can I support you in usmaking that change?
It could be simple, like, Ididn't realize it was such a big
problem.
I didn't realize it affected youthat way, or it could cause a
super big fight, you know.
Well, that's your problem, notmy problem.
(26:03):
Your problem is my problem inour relationship.
Period.
End of story.
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
Definitely, definitely.
What do you think we've missedtoday?
Is there anything that you'dlike to share with people?
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Well, I think my poor mother, we tore her apart.
We didn't we didn't tear myfather apart enough.
So let me do that for a moment.
Oh, you go ahead.
So my dad's clutter is differentthan my mom's.
My dad was a scientist and hehas a patent or two to his name,
and he built chemical plantsback in the 70s.
And so he has boxes of paper.
(26:40):
Boxes of paper that he thinkswholeheartedly are important
because there may be, I don'tknow, I'm going to make it up as
I go along, some chemicalequation or some blueprint or
some mathematical equationthat's in there that he'll never
be able to generate again.
And my dad is closer to 80 thanhe is to 79, and he still works
(27:01):
full-time, and that stuff isstill important to him.
And there's a reminder everyonce in a while, well, a lot of
that stuff actually is on theinternet now.
Like that thing that you didn'thave when you were first doing
this work 40, 50, 60 years ago.
And I think it's important forpeople in that situation to be
(27:24):
given the support in sortingthrough that stuff.
There's a lot of scanning thatneeds to happen, but there's
also just a lot of shreddingthat needs to happen.
And something that I tell mydad's in Florida, and so he has
these boxes of paper, and I say,So, Dad, what would happen if
(27:47):
the hurricane was so bad thatall of that paper got destroyed?
What would you do then?
Oh, you know, I don't need toborrow trouble, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
I get it.
You like, you don't want to jinxit or something.
You don't want to even put likethat that idea out in the ether.
(28:07):
But the reality is, if you tookon water, you would lose all of
that.
I mean, the same could happen,you know, God forbid, none of
this should happen in a fire.
I lived in Southern Californiaduring a major earthquake and
earthquake damage so much ofwhat you own.
We've seen terrible things.
(28:27):
We have friends who lost theirhomes in the fires earlier this
year.
And it makes you realize howunimportant the things are and
how important the people are.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
Oh, definitely.
Definitely.
So I'm wondering when you talkabout your dad being close to 80
and having all the paper, ifthat's a generational thing that
we won't deal with anymore asour children grow up.
SPEAKER_01 (28:53):
I mean, it's interesting because he's a
science guy, he's pretty techsavvy, you know.
I mean, he still uses an AOLaccount.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
So I didn't even know that was a thing.
Like it's I don't want to singleanybody out with an AOL account.
However, my dad's got an AOLaccount.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
But he also has email on his business email and
stuff like that.
In his case, I don't know ifit's like not being able to be
technically savvy enough.
Although maybe it's just similarto my mom in I need to take the
time to, or that's not what Imeant to say.
(29:33):
What I meant to say was, I needhelp in getting this done
because it's so overwhelming.
It's such a massive project.
And so, yeah.
He's asked me to come help himwith it, but the first time he
asked, I said no because I didthe legwork on having a shredder
(29:55):
truck come to the house.
When I heard how many boxes itwas, I was like, for a couple
hundred dollars.
They'll come to you, they'lltake the paper, they'll shred it
in front of you so you can seeit and then take it away.
He's like, Well, I'm not gettingrid of all of it just like that.
And I said, Then you're notready for me to come down and
help you.
You need to be ready to do that.
So he's been working on it onhis own.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
Such an attachment.
Yeah.
I can't even imagine.
So what do you think aboutpeople with ADHD?
Do you think that that executivefunctioning, like you were
talking about earlier, is partof that?
For me, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
For me, totally.
I think all of all of it, youknow, ADHD, depression, anxiety,
other kinds of mood disorders,you know, all that makes our
brains function a littledifferently makes the clutter a
little bit harder becausethere's an assumption that we
need to address it the same wayeverybody else does.
(30:54):
Well, what makes me uniquelymeans that I'm going to need a
unique approach.
There isn't a one size fits allto decluttering.
And I think that clutter coachesthat do have a one size fits all
are going to end up with clientsfor whom it's not going to go as
smoothly as it potentially can.
You really need to know whoyou're working with above and
(31:17):
beyond what their needs are.
Like it is important to knowthose things.
And, you know, moms of youngchildren who may not have ADD,
but they're sleep deprived and amess of things, that's going to
affect your executive functionfor those of us who are either
in periomenopause or as I am nowin menopause.
(31:40):
Our brains are also doing allthese really crazy things that
they weren't doing 20 years ago.
And so we also need to take thatinto consideration, whether it's
the ability to focus or how longyou can focus for, or what you
want to focus on, all of thatplays a significant role.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Right.
So if somebody wants to workwith you, is it something you
have to do in person or can youactually be on Zoom and help
people?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
I've done both.
And it's actually kind of funwhen we do it via Zoom.
I've had clients who we've metweekly and they've given me like
a tour of the space and showedme what they wanted to work on,
whether they thought they werecapable of it or not.
And we would talk a little bitabout where did the clutter come
from?
Why is it so hard to let it go?
(32:29):
What's getting in the way, notyou're getting in the way, but
what is actually getting in theway set goals.
So when working with clients, Iknow that I have to lean into
one of my favorite statements,and that is ridiculously simple
goals.
And when I say ridiculouslysimple, I mean like so little
that you're afraid that if youtold someone else that was your
(32:52):
goal, they'd be like, that's nota goal, you could do it in a
minute.
But that's the perfect goalbecause that's the one you can
do it, you accomplish itquickly, it feels good, you can
pat yourself on the back, you'remotivated and inspired to do
more.
And most importantly, feelconfident in your ability to do
more.
So when if I'm sitting down witha client and they say, Well,
(33:14):
this week I want to work on thecloset, I might narrow it down
and say, What part of the closetdo you want to work on?
Do you want to work on thehanging things?
Do you want to work on somethingthat's on a shelf up above or
the things that are on thefloor?
Or maybe it's a category ofthings.
Maybe it's the shirts, maybeit's the socks.
I think people are afraid to setgoals that are that small
(33:38):
because it doesn't really soundadmirable or something like
that.
And I think those are the mostadmirable goals.
Because if you set the bowl ofsocks and you do the socks,
you're gonna do something elsebecause it was like, well, that
was easy.
I could do another 10 minutes, Icould do another 15 minutes.
Yeah.
And then more stuff gets done.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Instead, I think because people think they do
have to have a bigger goal, theydo things like clear out the
whole closet.
And then they're like, oh myGod, now I have this huge mess.
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
I know that there are a lot of clutter experts
that are like, take it all outand sort it and all the things.
That's great if you know forsure that you're gonna dedicate
eight hours to it.
But if you're not gonna dedicateeight hours to it, then you
can't take everything out andsort everything because it's
just gonna make it worse.
(34:31):
At the end of the day, whenyou're still looking at these
piles, stress you out, orthey're gonna depress you, and
then you're not sleeping well.
And my history is well, if theclutter is stressing you out,
something's gotta take care ofthe stress.
Food, alcohol, cigarettes,shopping for more things, all of
the things that give you areally quick dopamine hit will
(34:51):
make you feel better, but theclutter's still there.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Right.
Amen.
Boy.
So if people want to work withyou, where do they find you?
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
They can find me on literally every social media
platform as Melanie Cohen or mycompany Thoughtfully Coaching.
Best way to reach me is atthoughtfullycoaching.com.
I do a free 30-minute discoverysession and which offer to
everybody.
And yeah, I also do groupcorporate wellness coaching
(35:22):
that's not necessarilyaddressing the clutter in your
closet, but addressing theclutter at the desk in your
briefcase, in the car, and allof the mental clutter.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Right.
Yeah, I personally have a bigproblem with my computer
clutter.
It's I had to buy an extra thingto put stuff on that was on my
computer because I didn't haveany space anymore.
And I'm like, some of these areduplicates and triplicates, and
I don't need all this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
So you know, when they first coined hoarders, it
was the early 90s.
I think it came out of SmithCollege, a professor and working
with someone on their seniorthesis, and it became something
that they didn't expect it wasgoing to become in terms of like
how many people out thereactually were facing the
challenges of hoarding.
(36:11):
But in the early 90s, when theywere talking about hoarding,
they were talking about stuff.
Yeah.
They didn't have social media,they didn't have digital
libraries of 20,000 photos fromthe past couple of years,
because there are six photos ofall the same people in the same
place, but one person has theireyes closed and the other
(36:32):
person's looking it away, andsomeone else has their finger up
their nose or whatever.
And instead of deleting andkeeping only one, they're all
there.
It's just all of these differentaspects of clutter in our lives
that none of us ever reallyanticipated being an issue,
ever.
SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
Yeah, it's a whole new world.
unknown (36:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
All right.
Well, Melanie, thank you so muchfor coming on and discussing
such a sensitive topic.
I appreciate it.
No, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And I will put all yourinformation in the show notes so
people can find you.
Excellent.
Thank you for being here, forlistening, and for holding space
for conversations just likethis.
(37:14):
Ones that aren't always easy butdeeply needed.
If this episode made you feelseen, understood, or reminded
you that you're not the only onewalking through hard things.
I'd be so grateful if you'dleave a review, share it with a
friend, or just reach out andlet me know you were here.
And if you want more supportlike this, real talk, soulful
(37:36):
tools, and reminders that youare not alone, you can join my
newsletter atadvancingwithany.com.
It's where I send the kind ofstuff that helps you keep going
when life feels heavy.
Keep advancing, lawyer.
You're doing better than youthink.
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