Ed Loughran III "Life Happens!" on MERCER-219

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
He is a Bassmaster Classic qualifier, he is a Bassmaster
Elite Series champion, but he lives a very different life.
You see, when he's not in the Bassmaster Elite Series, he's
practicing law. So you can imagine this week's
show has some very different conversations.
The barrister Edward Loughran, the Third, joins me this week.

(00:35):
I'm Bob Cobb for the Bassmaster.Welcome to Mercer.
Welcome one. Welcome all, friends, family,
freeloaders, fishing freaks, andof course you, my humpers.
Happy Hump Day to all of you andwelcome into the Awkwardly
Honest Fishing podcast that goesby my last name, which is
Mercer. This is the 219th edition of the

(00:57):
Mercer podcast and I hope wherever you're watching or
listening from that life is treating you well.
It is a wonderful time of year. Yesterday was Canada Day in
Canada, so happy candidate to all our fine Canadian listeners.
And this week is Independence Day, July 4th in the United
States of America. So a big week, whatever side of

(01:20):
the border you are on. So I hope you all enjoy your
festivities and both holidays involve a little time off and a
lot of fireworks. So watch your digits.
I mean, fireworks give us all a lot of things, but one of the
things they take it is fingers. So be safe out there people
because fingers are important inlife.

(01:44):
Speaking of being important in life, somebody that deserves a
very special shot. It is so simple to pick on like
the the negative in the world, but there is a lot of positive
in the fishing world and one of those big positives is Carl
Jacobson. Not just Carl, but Carl and
Kayla Jacobson, his entire crew at Fear My Heart.
It started as initiative. Carl was fishing a tournament on

(02:07):
Guntersville and while he was fishing he saw a lot of trash in
the shore and he's like, I'm going to come back here after
this event. I'm going to clean up.
Well, him and Kayla went and cleaned up and that has evolved
into the fear of my heart. Worldwide Lake cleanup day.
He had 70 lakes around the world, I think 8 different
countries, 40 states. My family was lucky enough to

(02:32):
take part of it in our local lake here, but it's amazing that
that many people came and supported it.
I mean, Carl's cleanup at Chickamauga was out of control.
70 something people showed up. They pulled 10,000 lbs of trash
from one Creek, 10,000 lbs. And whether it's big or small,

(02:56):
all you had to do is register and clean up some trash.
You know, we spent a few hours on Sunday morning and cleaned up
in the cool thing about it is, is just watching people's
reaction around. You.
Mean, one of the areas we cleaned up was a, a boat ramp
and there was just trash all over the place from people just,
you know, discard. I mean, you guys know, you go to

(03:17):
boat ramps, you see what happens.
It's not always clean. And we're cleaning up and people
are looking at you like you, these guys must have community
service or whatever. And when you just tell them, no,
we're just trying to make thingsbetter, that spreads throughout
people. So Carl and Kayla, thank you for
starting that. And to all of you, make sure you
support it in the future. His goal was 100 likes.

(03:38):
They got 70. Let's make sure they get 100
next year. And like I said, there's no you
can do it as big as you want. You can do it as small as you
want. It's just making the effort and
making things better. And I'm thankful for people like
Carl and Kayla that started initiatives like that and work
to make things better. So way to go.

(03:59):
This week's show going to be a lot of fun, A really cool guest,
somebody who I've been wanting to get on here for a long time
and just sketching. He won an elite last year and a
lot of times we get the guys on after they win, but
unfortunately it was a back-to-back.
It was also the end of the season angler of the year and it

(04:19):
just never got Ed on. But we got Ed Lochran here this
week and I think Ed Lochran is avery unique case.
So that while I don't think I know he's a very unique case in
the elite series and the fact that like what?
He's not in the Elite series, he's a lawyer.
I mean, he leaves Sunday and gets back home and is practicing

(04:39):
law on Monday. I mean, he's a full time lawyer
that fits the elite series in onthe side.
And so he's we talk about a lot of unique things throughout this
discussion. But one of the most amazing
things about Ed Loughran is thisisn't a new dream for him to
chase the elites. This is a dream that started in

(04:59):
him when he was a young man and he chased it and guess what?
It it didn't work out, he stepped away, he became a
lawyer, had a family, and then chased back after that dream.
And it is always hard to chase your dreams, but maybe even

(05:22):
harder to go back after something when you're
established when when people assume you just to be living
your life and not chasing dreams.
So I think it's an amazing story.
I think he is an amazing human with an amazing perspective.
And I hope you agree. Without further ado, let's jump

(05:46):
into it with the barrister Edward.
Lochran. Ed Lochran I am happy we are
finally doing this. Generally I have guys on after
they win an elite. You won an elite that was in
between our Angler of the Year race, a back-to-back event, and
I'm glad we're finally getting to do this.
But you also are a busy guy. You're the only guy I've ever

(06:09):
went to book. And you said, well, I got 130
court cases today. Yeah.
Is that a real? Number.
That's a real number. I had 130 cases today and I have
that sort of 5 or 6 * a month aspart of part of my job.
We have a high volume client andso we file about 130 cases 456

(06:30):
times a month and I've had dockets similar to that over the
past 20 years. So I probably had 150,000 cases
I guess and 20 years of being anattorney so.
So what kind of, I've never asked you this, but what kind of
law do you have like a specialtyor is it a what kind of law
would you? It's civil litigation, but it's

(06:52):
mostly a collections practice. So I represent everything from,
like today, a toll road. I actually represent a toll road
for toll violators who go through and don't pay attention
to the notices and don't do anything.
And two years later, if it gets to us, it gets to us.
But most people take care of things right away.
But that's what today's was. But I represent hospitals,

(07:15):
doctors, landlords, air conditioning companies, plumbing
companies that don't get paid, all kinds of different people
who don't get paid. So it's really just contract
disputes. And you know, it's, it's not
like there's a whole lot of questions about whether they owe
the money very often. So it's it's not too bad.

(07:37):
So if anyone's wondering where the name the barrister came
from, now, you know I never asked you before I started
calling you that. I never said, hey, how would you
like to be the barrister? What did you think the first
time you heard me say that? I thought that no one is going
to know what that is and, and they still don't because, you
know, a barrister is an attorneyin and it's a, it's a Canadian,

(07:59):
an English term, I believe. And so we don't have a
tremendous number of British people that are fishing the
Elite series or that follow the Elite series.
We have an increasing number of Canadians obviously growing like
an infection and beating me every tournament.
But so, yeah, I thought it was great.
I mean, I, I like you, grew up watching wrestling and stuff, so

(08:22):
there were always these names and personalities, so I thought
it was cool. Yeah, and and that's probably
more where it came from, to be honest.
It it the bear. I've never heard anyone in candy
use the term barrister, but I know in England it's A and I
don't know, it's just, I mean, it had a lot of wrestling.
Edward Loughran, the third. The barrister, I mean.
It totally. I mean.

(08:42):
Totally. It's a it's a rough name for a
bass fisherman. It's a rough name for anybody,
but it's what I got. Well, you speak of those
Canadians and you beat one and beat them by a freaking Oz.
One ounce so and there's a picture of out there of when you
announced it, which seemed like it took forever when we were on

(09:05):
stage and you can see I mean I was very happy, but you can also
tell I was shocked because I didn't think that I had it.
I knew I was very, very, very close because I'm pretty good
with my weights. But it that's a cool picture.
And you know, Chris, I, I consider him a friend.
I mean, I think if I called him right now, he'd probably pick up

(09:25):
and you know, he, he did OK the next week.
So he was all right. He, he, he'll survive.
He might if he sticks with it, he might do OK in this industry
it. Looks like it.
It looks, looks like it. He's a very different career
than than yours, though. I mean, you've been you.

(09:47):
I don't think Chris has ever. And I'm, I don't want to use the
word struggle because I, I wouldn't say you've struggled.
You've always fished at a very high level, but it took a long
time to get that signature win. How is that?
Different for you. For for me, it's a lot
different. I mean, I started fishing
tournaments literally in 1984. I was 13 years old and over time

(10:14):
like most people do, I started out as a Co angler fish Red
man's, which are now the BFLS, fish Federation stuff and
started doing better and better and worked my way up.
But but then in my early to mid 20s I kind of blew out of bass
fishing. You know, I tried to make what
was then the top one 50s or top one hundreds and I didn't make

(10:38):
it one of those tournaments. I actually roomed with David
Dudley because I knew his dad well, James Dudley, who fished
in the area here in Virginia. And so it took me a long time to
fail, took me into my mid 20s tofail.
And then I went away for about 15 years from 17 years from
tournament fishing, serious tournament fishing, and decided

(11:02):
at one point, once my law practice got operational and
everything was cruising along totry to get back in fish the Open
for a number of years banged my head against that brick wall
that it's it's tough. It's tough way to get into
anything. Finally made it.
And then, you know, I, I was only ever in really in

(11:23):
contention for two other tournaments and I wouldn't even
call one of them in contention for a Lake Fork tournament where
Patrick Walters blew the field away.
That was sort of the first forward facing Sonar tournament
and I was in second going in thelast day, but I was like 20 lbs
behind so it didn't really count.
And then, you know, I won the 1.I had a couple other top 10's

(11:44):
and won the one last year at Champlain and literally almost
40 years to the day that I started fishing.
That's really my only national level win.
I've, I've won some regional stuff, but my only national
level win and I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it and
how much that amount of time makes it all that much sweeter

(12:05):
because I'm not, I'm not a phenom like a, you know, Paul
Marks or, or Easton Fothergill or Trey McKinney.
I'm just not, you know, but I'm someone who's always been
hanging around. And it's nice that those four
days in August worked out. And I just, I really wish that
no matter what people do or whatlevel they compete at, whether

(12:28):
it's in a bowling alley, a pool hall, horseshoes, I don't care
what it is. I just hope that everybody at
some point in their life gets those four days in August like I
had, where you are the best of the whole group that you're in.
I happen to get lucky and be thebest of the best those four
days. And that's something that it's,

(12:52):
I'm just really, really lucky. What did that feel like it?
I I had assumed I had lost. So I came in, you know, I came
in from weigh in. And I mean, there are to weigh
in and there's, there's a video of me, you know, saying, well,
hopefully I'll just stay in the top five.
And, you know, then I get in there and I'm talking backstage

(13:15):
with everybody and we're all sitting there and Zaldane, who I
know very well, he says, you know, I, I don't have squad, I
don't have anything. And Robertson's there and bunch
of other people. And then there's Robert G, who I
don't know, and Chris Johnston, who is, you know, he's either
really bad at math or constantlysandbags at least 2 lbs.

(13:36):
So you never know about his his weights.
But I knew what I had. And so we're getting down to it.
And I knew it was going to be extremely close.
I knew I was going to be within an ounce or two either way.
And once I got up there, it was it, it, it was unbelievable.
I mean, I, it, it didn't even feel real.

(13:57):
I mean, Champlain, I have a lot of history there.
My wife and family, they were there earlier in the week.
They had to go back as my kids were going to college.
My cousins were there. A guy from the industry that
I've known since the 80s. He was there because he lives up
in Westport, NY, just a little South of Plattsburgh.
So it, just, it, it was neat. It was unusual because it was a

(14:18):
Monday. So it's not like we had gigantic
crowds last year. We had three final Mondays.
I qualified for, I qualified foreveryone.
Well, you're working man. Right, exactly.
So you know, we didn't have massive, massive crowds at any
of those because it was Monday, but this was it was neat.

(14:39):
It was unbelievable how it happened.
It was a very strange. It was a very strange final day,
strange event, just how it went down for me where it went down
on the lake and it it was unbelievable.
But I mean, it was the literallysomething I dreamed of since I
was, you know, 13 years old watching Rick Klun on the
Arkansas River win a classic there in dominating fashion,

(15:03):
which that one tournament spurred on like 5 or 6 or 7
different people on the Elite Series that I know of that that
one win. People talk about that that one
win all the time. And so since then, I've always
been chasing it. And I caught it in August.
Hackney said that was his motivator motivated that event.

(15:25):
There's several, you're right. There are several.
Was Rick the guy for you growingup like he was?
He, he was one of them. I mean, you know, I like that he
would do a lot of different stuff.
I wasn't, you know, I wasn't A1 trick pony and I fished a lot of
crank baits. I haven't gotten to do that on

(15:46):
the elites too much 'cause just it hasn't fallen into place.
But so he was someone that I always thought was different.
You know, he was different than the other anglers.
And I had a Skeeter and, you know, back in the day ran
Skeeters for a long time and he ran a Skeeter.
But so did everybody back then. They would all travel around in

(16:07):
these black Dodge vans that Skeeter gave them.
And they all had the black and red Skeeter boats.
It was him and Ken Cook and Larry Nixon, Joe Thomas, Rich
Tauber, all these guys, Gary Klein.
And they were all like identical.
It was, it was, it was neat. It was a different, different
thing back then. So, yeah, I, I followed him a
lot. But it was, it was neat

(16:28):
competing against him over the past seven seasons, six seasons.
So that that was neat. I used to look at those vans, I,
what was it? Choo Choo customs and stuff like
those vans and be like one day just me and the van just.
Down by the river, yeah, that's it.

(16:51):
But yeah, it was that, that, that was that was neat.
But you know it. I, I, I looked up to a lot of
guys, a lot of local guys too that you know, that helped me
along the way and taught me stuff so.
When did you, when did you decide that this was something
you wanted to chase? Like how young do you remember

(17:11):
that being? I didn't really know anything
about tournament bass fishing until I was about 13.
And you know, I walked into a tackle store one day and I hung
around there a lot and I think they just got sick of me.
So they hired me. You know, they said, well,
you're always hanging around, you're talking to customers and
why don't we just teach you how to use the line machine and you

(17:34):
know all about the rods and reels and baits.
So just work here and we'll pay you like whatever it was 4 bucks
an hour. But they couldn't pay me.
So they gave me baits or gave mecredit towards rods and reels.
And so that that is how I ended up getting things.
But, but you know, one, once I started getting into a little
bit, I believed I could do it. And then I started guiding in

(17:56):
high school on the Potomac River.
And by the time I was a freshmanin college and I picked my
college naturally, the one that was closest to the Potomac
River, that was my criteria for choosing a college.
But once I started doing that, Iwas making a good living by the
time I was 19 as a guide and tournament fishing and I had a

(18:20):
little lure company where I was selling maybe 8 or 10,000 baits
a year at it's apex. And so I was making a living by
the time I was 19/20/21 and I quit.
I, I thought I could, you asked when and I, I can tell you when
it was I tried to make the All American.
That was my goal was to make theAll American through the Redman,

(18:40):
which are now the BFLS and I, I made it to regionals all the
time and I would just get my teeth kicked in and eventually
there was a regional that was going to be on Bugs Island Lake
and I know the place fairly well.
So I travelled the Northeast to try to qualify and I did.
And so I went down and I made the All American through that.

(19:03):
It was in 1992 and it was in Muskogee, OK, which was just, I
drove through it on the way to 10 Killer where we where we were
just a few weeks ago. And I fished that tournament.
I was 21 years old. I was the youngest guy at that
point to ever qualify for it. And I got 5th and I was in the
same Oxbow as Clark Wendelin, who won that tournament and that

(19:27):
launched his career. And so at that point I said, you
know what, I can do this. And so I took that money and I
went, and there had been some hubbub on the Potomac about
required needing a captain's license to be a guide.
And so I took my money that I won from the All American, went

(19:49):
and hung out in Nags Head, whichis on the Outer Banks, North
Carolina, for a summer, stayed at a friend's house from college
and studied for my captain's exam and drove down to New
Orleans. Took the test down there because
at that time you could take the test in New Orleans for your
captain's license and walk out with it the same day.

(20:09):
It wasn't like a big hassle, delayed process.
So I did that. That took about, you know, three
days total, but I stayed there for about two weeks.
New Orleans is a fun place. Don't remember much of it, but
it was cool. And then when I went back to
college, at that point, I reallyhad, my heart was no longer in

(20:32):
college. I, I had my captain's license,
had a little business with my guide business, my lure company
doing well in tournaments. And so I said, I'm going to go
ahead and, you know, quit college and focus on this.
And that's what I did. And I did that for several
years, blew out of it, got my teeth kicked in, went back,
finished college, went on to work at a big Wall Street firm

(20:54):
trading stocks, then became a lawyer and then said, hey, I
want to get back to fishing. So wow.
Wow, That's a that's a summary of 25 years of 1's life.
Yeah, it it the reason I kind ofgiggled a few times during that
is, is not the lawyer thing or the college thing, but but your

(21:14):
early life, so similar. Like I started working at a
tackle store when I was 13 and and I remember I applied for the
job and I remember Rodger Parterhired me and he said, so you
want to work at a tackle store? And I'm like, no, not really,
but I want to fish tournaments. I want to be a pro angler.
And I think this will let me meet the right people.
And he kind of that's why he hired me and I started on the

(21:35):
line machine, put line on people's reels backwards.
Wait. Like we remember the line
clinics were a big thing back inthe day.
Oh, he'd come get line for a penny or whatever it.
Was Penny a yard or whatever it was did did you ever blow up
anybody's graphite spinning reel?
Their their their spool 'cause if you spooled it on too tight

(21:55):
it would blow it up and it woulddestroy the spool.
Yeah. And there and it was like a
Mitchell 300 or whatever it for whatever reason you had to put
the line on backwards on those. And if you didn't know that, you
just know. But he's real.
And then he would go fishing and.
Blow up and go backwards. I I did all that and I, I did

(22:17):
engraving on trophies there and did all kinds of stuff in that
store. It was a great experience and
you know, that's how I got into tournament fishing.
And some of the guys that I met in that store are friends to
this day. So I fished with him to this
day, you know, and that literally was 1984.
So yeah, fishing's fishing's been a common song line through

(22:38):
my entire life. Today's high tech fishing world
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It I don't think like with the youth invasion, the amount of

(23:02):
young anglers, I also think theydon't get to experience what you
experienced or what I experienced, like standing out
just by being young. Like there's so many young
anglers you see now and I don't know the guys in the elites.
I mean, go to an event and the kids that are helping back.
I mean they're all tournament anglers.
I would assume you were no different than me where you were

(23:24):
different like it was. I was way different.
Little Ed that's. Young, That's it.
And, and you know, when I started fishing the Redman's,
there was pretty much nobody else in those.
When I was 16 and 17, oddly enough, in my particular region,

(23:46):
I fished against Randy Howell. So he started coming up at that
point because his family owned Owl's Lunker Lodge on Lake
Gadget, which was part of the division where I fished in the
Piedmont Division. So Randy was there.
And then Chris, Dave's, Wu's son, he was there.
And so you look around the country, there weren't that

(24:06):
many. There were hardly any, frankly,
of our age. And they're all a hair younger
than me. But then there were the three of
us, you know, in, in that exact area.
So that was a little unusual. But yeah, I, I stuck out like a
sore thumb. And it was, it was a lot
different back then. I mean, there was no such thing
as high school fishing. There was no such thing as, you

(24:27):
know, scholarships or college bass teams or anything.
It was, it was different there. There were no phones there
obviously, as everyone knows. I mean there were paper maps and
where we live there were flashers and you know,
eventually paper graphs, the X sixteens or 50 ones or whatever
they were. So things have changed a lot.
And that's another thing. I feel really lucky to have seen

(24:51):
it all progress to the awesome state where it is today of the
technology. It's, it's truly unbelievable.
You say the awesome state where it is now, but there's many
people from that time who, you know, don't look at it that way.
I mean, how do you look at it different than so many?

(25:13):
What I said was the awesome state of the technology.
So what I mean by that is I findit absolutely incredible that I
can sit there and look at a fish100 feet out and make a cast
with a drop shot or a minnow or whatever and watch how that fish
is reacting. I probably can't see my bait at

(25:33):
100 feet, but by the time it gets to 60 or 70, I can see it.
And that's just unbelievable to me.
I think that, you know, cartoon characters, you know, growing
up, I was used to love Aquaman because he could sit there and
swim around. And I always would think it'd be
cool to be able to see fish. I loved aquariums.

(25:54):
Now we can kind of see that. And I think that that is awesome
technology. I think a nuclear bomb is
awesome technology too, but it, you know, might not be great if
it's not used in a proper judicious manner and it could
have far reaching consequences. So, you know, I think that we

(26:14):
just need to not lose touch withwhat probably got you and
probably got me into this, whichI remember being five years old,
sitting with my grandparents, just with the little orange and
yellow bobber waiting for it to go down.
I didn't know if there was a fish looking at it.
I didn't know if there was AI mean.
Heck, I can tell now if there's a one pounder or a three pounder

(26:35):
looking at it. I can tell if it's a walleye or
a bass. You didn't know it before.
So some of the mystery and mystique has been removed by it.
Same thing with Google Earth. I mean, there is no more man.
I wonder if I can make it acrossthat flat.
I wonder if there's any water inthat Creek.
I just go on Google Earth. Look back a couple years.
Oh, yeah, there's a hole there. I'll be able to get back there
and make it back. You go with No Fear.

(26:58):
That's not how it used to be. So, you know, some of the
mystery and mystique, like with so many things in this world
have been removed by technology,but it certainly makes it more
efficient for the person using it and it makes it more
interesting and brings in different skill sets.

(27:20):
You know, people look at me and they're always like, oh, you
must be one of those old guys that doesn't like forward
facing. I said, no, absolutely not.
I love it and I'm very good mechanically at it.
It's from my video game playing in the 80s.
You know, I mean, I'm, I, I can,I'm good at distance, direction

(27:42):
and everything. I may not be so good as some of
the, as most of these younger guys at determining whether
those fish are going to bite or they're not right now and you
need to come back in a couple hours to see if they're set up
right. They've got me on that.
But mechanically I'm good. So I don't dislike the
technology, but it just concernsme that, you know, we don't get

(28:04):
to feature all the square bills and the spinner baits and stuff
that we all grew up fishing, that the industry depends on and
that people who don't have thousands of dollars to blow on
electronics, they're still out there and they're still bass
fishing. We can't get so myopic as to

(28:25):
think that high evolved, high end tournament fishing is all
there is. There's many more guys out there
with a 16 foot John boat with a tiller 25 on it.
They just want to go bass fish and they want to learn more
about it. They don't have the money or
interest. Maybe their body of water
doesn't suit that kind of fishing.

(28:46):
So I just, I don't want us to lose those traditional
techniques and lures that the industry depends on and are part
of bass fishing. But it's the same.
But at the same time, I mean, I,I am not anti technology in any
way shape or form. I mean like 360 when that came
out, I remember I thought, I don't know about this.

(29:07):
And I pulled up to Palanik at the James River Open because I'd
met him years before at a Federation national that we both
qualified for. And I pulled up to him on the
James and I and I saw he had one.
I said, hey, man, is, is that thing for real?
And he looked at me and he said you need to go get one.
And so I went like the next weekand went and got one.

(29:27):
And that changed things. And I've been using Google Earth
forever and I've been using forward facing and you know, it
all helps. And we needed to compete at at
the level where I am and you know it, it just has changed
things a little bit. And I want to make sure that
traditional techniques and luresstill get the attention and
every facet of the fishing industry and the people involved

(29:51):
in it get attention and get whatthey can from watching us or
watching shows, you know, like yours.
Yeah. No, no, I think that that's to
me that's a refreshing approach because I mean you, you
obviously embrace the technology.
I mean, you were probably the first guy that had glasses

(30:16):
connected to his unit and was trying to do it that way.
And you can do that. Yeah.
So, I mean, and it and it works,it's just better in certain
situations. But you know, my neck was
hurting and I simply thought maybe you can do this and it
works. But someone will come out with
something like that at some point that that works.
But you know, I don't, I don't shy away from it.

(30:39):
I mean, you can't stop progress,but at the same time you need to
make sure that some of the traditions are kept.
And, you know, we, we, we're aware of that.
Because I think it's going to behard for a lot of people in the
industry to make a living when all anybody needs is 3 or 4
spinning rods, one or two casting rods, jerk bait and a
couple minnows and a drop shot. That's just that, that that's

(31:02):
tough, tough sell. Yeah, I think the truth with it,
I mean, I I've been at times people are like, well, what's
your true opinion? And my opinion's all over the
place. Like there's part of me that
hates a lot of the things. Like there's, I fell in love
with this sport long before thatwas a thing.

(31:22):
There's part of me that loves some of the stuff that I see
from it. But I mean, the truth is it's
somewhere in the middle for kindof everybody if you're if you're
being totally and. That's why I fall.
Yeah, what I hate is the and I guess it's social media, but
where it's everything is presented as fact.
Like if you hate it, everything about it is bad.

(31:43):
Like there's nothing good. And and if you if you love it,
well, you know, then that way offishing before is just archaic.
You know what I mean? Like that none of that is you
shouldn't disrespect the future.You shouldn't disrespect the
past. You know, that's not what this
sport's ever been about. True, I'm still stuck because

(32:04):
you kind of equated it forward facing sonar to a nuclear bomb.
But I mean, you know somebody. Will grab that Oh.
I'm sure they will, but and I'llprobably get in trouble and I'll
probably get fired from Garmin. But you know, I mean it just
it's it's a situation where I mean any technology, I mean, you
can say a gun, you know, I mean,you know it, it can be used for

(32:26):
good purposes or bad purposes, fun purposes, sporting purposes.
But, you know, I think a balanceis the important part and I in
no way, way, shape or form thinkthat Ford facing should be
banned. I'm actually I'm a really black
and white guy. Usually this is one of the few
things where I think, you know, a middle ground is, is necessary

(32:47):
because I think that you will see the sport contract continue
to contract. And I think that you will see a
much lower participation if, if,if the if the people who can't
afford the technology are not paid attention to and the people
who are in the swamps of Louisiana who don't care about

(33:08):
throwing some fuzzy looking dicething in 40 feet of water.
You got to pay attention to everybody in the whole industry.
It's a big country. It's a big fishing community,
everybody from rich people to poor people to everything in
between, people with no boats, people with $150,000 boats.
And I think you need to rememberthat.
And I think everyone needs to remember that.

(33:30):
And, you know, it's, it's something that I'm concerned
about. And you know, I just hope that
good decisions are made. If you were able to make the
decision, but what would your decision be?
My decision would be to split the season, half the season with
it, half without. It would be a situation where, I

(33:52):
mean, there are little tweaks here and there.
I don't think that it's fair to BASS to say, OK, will you do it
through where you put tournaments for the time of
year? That limits them as to who they
can negotiate with for where they're going to have
tournaments. You know, and I've heard people

(34:13):
say, well, OK, but we should make it random which five
tournaments are with or 4 tournaments are without.
We should make it random. I I don't want to go to Saint
Clair without Ford facing anymore.
I mean, I've been there without Ford facing and the weights were
a lot lower. And so I think somewhere like
that, you know, you kind of got to have a Ford facing, but then

(34:33):
on Lake Fork or something, I mean, it, it, it almost doesn't
matter. You'd have a good tournament
either way, you know. So I, I think that someone who
is a very people or someone or people who are very experienced
anglers, fishermen, tournament fishermen, highly accomplished
tournament fishermen who've beendoing it a long time should say,

(34:57):
you know, we'll hear this. These are the events that we
should make. If these are the events we
should make it not usable, then there are other little tweaks.
I mean, maybe you could use it in every practice, but one way
or the other, if you did that, Idon't know why any electronics
companies would be frustrated bythat, because every boat's going
to have one on it. And you know, and, and, but if

(35:19):
you if you just flat out ban it,I mean, that's ignoring a facet
of angling. And, you know, I mean, what are
you, does that mean you would say, you know, let's ban this
other new thing or this, you know, when Chaturbates came out,
that was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Well, that's too effective. Ban that.
I mean, you know, I don't, I don't like banning things

(35:40):
necessarily. So I think a, a hybrid season
would probably make the most sense.
And, you know, but it's a tough choice.
It's a very tough choice. And my fear, my fear is, and
there's been stuff out there online that I've seen about, you
know, a vote that was taken. And, you know, I think it was

(36:04):
that more people wanted to ban it than not.
And I think that, frankly, is inreaction.
And this could have all been fixed two years ago.
I mean, there were a lot of people after 2023 that said,
hey, something needs to be done now.
Nothing was done. And then for 2024, minimal

(36:26):
changes were done, you know, that were nibbling around the
edges. They were just smoke and
mirrors. And I think that the reaction
that you have now of maybe people saying, well, I think it
should just be banned like the anglers.
I mean, a lot of anglers have said that.
I think that's a reaction to poor leadership and and not

(36:47):
having any vision or not asking the right people for opinions.
And I think that's a big problem.
Ultimately, as a fan of the sport, I want the angler of the
year. I want to know just like, just
like this. I've used the equation of the
small mouth. I mean, you had people who would

(37:10):
Patrick Walters, I mean, you can't put him in that group
anymore because he obviously weighed the most weight that's
ever been weighed in a small mouth event.
But but he put in the work. Like he would fish down South
and be in the top 10 for angler of the year every year.
Then he'd go up north and crash and burn on the small mouth
events. And as much as I like Patrick,
you don't deserve to win Angler of the Year if you, if there's

(37:33):
only a certain element of it that you can do, I think just
something that allows at the endof the year, you're like, well,
that person caught him every single way.
I agree million percent. One of the things that you did
in your life that stands out to me as as very different and and

(37:57):
even more impressive than a 20 year old, you know, doing what
you initially tried to do until you were 25 is the fact that you
went back, the fact that you went and accomplished, became
successful in all terms of, you know, looking from the outside,

(38:18):
financially successful. But it's almost harder, I would
assume to go and chase that again.
Like the whole time when you were working, was that in your
head that I'm going to do this again?
Or like how did you get there it?

(38:38):
It really wasn't. I mean, I had basically written
it off, you know, for a number of years.
And it's one of those things that you in your life, I mean,
if certain, if you don't do certain things or certain
questions aren't answered by a certain age, I mean, it just
didn't happen. Fishing is fortunately one of
those things that that is not necessarily true.

(38:59):
So when I quit back in the mid 90s, you know, I, I moved on and
I fished, but I didn't fish tournaments and I certainly
didn't fish until probably the early 2000 tens.
I didn't fish any even vaguely serious tournaments.

(39:21):
And what I learned is it was kind of like riding a bike to
some extent. But when I came to the
realization that, you know, I wasn't the young guy anymore,
you know, that that's a harsh 1.And I mean, I, I wrote on the
eve of the one classic that I'vequalified for.

(39:42):
I wrote an article and it was, you know, they wouldn't put the
title up there that I wanted to have on it.
I wrote the article and my titlewas Life Happens and they didn't
like that. Instead they changed it to my 40
year journey to the classic or something.
I was like, OK, fine, whatever. If you put the substance, if you

(40:05):
put what I wrote up there, I don't care what you call it.
And so I wrote that and I tell the story in that of like
literally, I don't know. I would.
It must have been in 2012. Thirteen, something like that.
I was in my early 40s and I I looked in the mirror and I was
like, man, I look old. I was like, I it's a lot.

(40:26):
It's a lot later than it than I thought it was.
And I said, if I'm going to do this, I'd, I'd better get on
with this. And I went hard after the opens
from that point on and miss making the elites by two or
three spots a few different times in the northern opens, the
southern opens. I mean, it was, it was a
heartbreaker. And, you know, I mean, I still
have visions of a couple of fishat Seminole that came off in a

(40:50):
mat that are just sitting on topof the grass mat and I can't get
to them and they're just flopping until they eventually
wiggle down through it. I pulled them to the top.
So, you know, you see those things.
I mean, I, I still see those, they were little fish, which is
why I didn't catch them because in mats you, you know, you often
don't get those little fish on the hook very well.
But but then eventually I made it and, you know, they're

(41:14):
they're probably wasn't a lot good for the I don't know that
there was a lot good for a lot of people that came out of the
big split with BASS when everybody left in 2018.
But I was one of those guys thathad benefited because I was
there at the Opens Championship on Table Rock along with the
Palma and Caleb Sumrall and Derek Hudnall and a bunch of

(41:35):
other guys. And when all those guys left,
suddenly we were there. And a lot of us had been there
fishing the Opens, trying to make it for years.
So it's not like they just picked us out of the blue and to
get to the Open Championship. I mean, I think they went down
to like #10 or something or 11 and that.
So we ended up coming in. But that was really cool because

(41:57):
I, you know, I always wanted to do it.
I've always been one to want to try to do something at the
highest level that I possibly could and making it was a big
deal. But I still remember, like I
said in that article, you know, I've seen too many guys with too
much, a lot more skill than me that have qualified even for the

(42:21):
elites and couldn't do it because of business reasons or
this or that, financial reasons,health reasons.
I've seen all this stuff take these guys down.
And so I in the early teens, youknow, like 2011, 1213, something
like that. I said, if I'm going to do this,
I better do it now. And, and I managed to half a

(42:43):
what do they say? You know, 3/4 of life is showing
up or something while I kept hanging around.
You keep hanging around. And if you're there, you never
know what might happen. And so that's how I got to the
elites. What did it feel like going into
that season? Yeah, that elite season.
Because I think people forget, like what the phishing media had

(43:07):
to say at that time. I mean, they they, I mean it
basically what I heard was theseguys aren't going to catch a
bass. Nobody's going to show up in the
crowd, you know what I mean? Like, that's and nobody was
saying that about me. They were saying that about you.
Guys. That's what I mean.
Like what did that feel like foryou?

(43:32):
I, I almost, I didn't care it, it didn't, it didn't bother me.
I mean, my goal was to get there, try to make classic and
the fact that most of the field and many of the guys that I and
I've competed against some of them before and lower level
events and, and many other things over the years, mostly

(43:53):
back in the 90s. But you know, I, I wasn't real
concerned about it. I mean, I didn't care.
I mean people, you know, called the scabs or whatever because we
just kind of got brought in and,you know, OK, whatever.
But you know, I still got the backpack that says I'm an elite
series guy. So there's that.
That's what I got. And I also got to and I knew

(44:14):
when I made it, I was going to be travelling with crews and
I've known John since he was 1514.
I don't know. And so I was like, man, this is
going to be fun because that's really what a lot of this to me
is about. It's not necessarily about the
OK, well, I mean, the trophy is pretty freaking cool, but it's
not about the the 100 grand or it's not about, you know, when I

(44:39):
am the classic, that's pretty freaking cool too.
But it's not about just the fishing.
It's about the people you meet, the things you see, the the
different places you see. I mean, I didn't know until I
went to 10 Killer that there aretarantulas all over the place in
Oklahoma. They're crawling on the road.
I had. No idea.
So, you know, and, and I've justseen a lot of great things and

(45:02):
I've seen some horrible things and, but that's it.
I mean, you only get to, you only get to write your book
once. You might as well fill it up
with all kinds of good stuff. Yeah, that is the thing that I
think is 100% the truth. Like, you know, there's so much
time people spend up arguing about rules, arguing about

(45:27):
forward faces. I mean, that's just human
nature, and that's never going to change.
In the 70s, they were arguing about stuff too, you know, like,
there's a reason you can only use a rod so long, because
flipping was the devil at one time.
But at the end of the day, I always say that to people like
in the offseason, I never sit around and say, gosh, I wish I

(45:51):
could yell boom, Shaka Laka right now.
But I do sit around and think, man, I miss this guy.
Or I miss just conversations we all get to have in the dock or,
or like you said, you see things, parts of the world, you
know, like I've been to Oklahomaa bunch of times.
I didn't remember Oklahoma beingas hilly as it was where we

(46:12):
were, you know what I mean? That's all.
Totally. That's the foothills of the
Ozark Mountains, a totally different kind of Oklahoma.
We get to see a lot of the world.
That is truly the gift in life, in anything, I think, really.
Yeah, that that really is. And it just the experiences that
I've had with, you know, traveling with crews for all
these years and getting to know Chris Aldane well and Derek

(46:36):
Hudnall, who, you know, is not fishing the Elite series this
year. And Schmidt, you know, who grew
up around me, but I really didn't know him.
He was, you know, 10-15 years younger than me.
But that's been cool. And just just different crazy
stuff, you know, just going out to bars at the Classic and, you
know, being, I mean, getting to meet other incredible people

(47:00):
through fishing, you know, like,I mean, I've gotten through Lee
Livesey and some other people to, you know, go to Whiskey
Myers concerts, like backstage. I mean, who gets to do this
stuff? And Aaron Lewis and you know, I
get to say hi to Rick Klund backwhen he was still fishing and
talk to him if I want. I mean, it's it's just that's
what it's about. And you know that that's that's

(47:24):
really a lot of it for me. I've always wanted to win on a
national level, but never quite could make it happen.
So it was very nice to have thatand make the classic.
But when I look back, a lot of the things are going to be just
those little funny moments at some restaurant at Toledo Bend
with Schmidt and Cruz, you know,So that's those, those are the

(47:46):
things that you really, you can't, you can't put a price on.
I look at Elite series anglers and they look at your double
life. And I think for many people,
they're like, yeah, he's a lawyer.
I don't get it. I don't like they they can't
even realize what. What do your lawyer friends

(48:07):
think of your Elite Series life?Well, I mean, I've always
fishing has always been part of my life since I was a little
kid. No one in my family fished.
I mean, you know, my, my dad wasn't really around, but I
mean, my grandparents, they didn't know anything about
fishing. My mom knew nothing about
fishing. I just gravitated towards it

(48:28):
because I was kind of good at it.
I'd go out on a party boat and I'd catch fish when other people
didn't, you know? And everybody's using the same
baits, you're on the same thing.So I always just kind of
gravitated towards it. But so I've always been
fisherman Ed, they got, you know, and a lot of my friends
who are attorneys, I mean, my bosses, I mean, I think to a

(48:49):
great extent, you know, they live vicariously through me
because it's rare that you get to do something that seems fun
most of the time and that especially the people on the
outside, it seems fun all the time.
But, and it is, I mean, I, I, I enjoy it and I love it, but it's
so far beyond what most people think.

(49:11):
By the time you're out of law school and you're in your late
20s or something, you know, yourlife very often is not
wonderful. And you know, a lot of people in
any job, they just get up, go totheir job and come back and
maybe they do this or that on the weekend.
And, you know, they always had dreams and it kind of goes back

(49:32):
to that life happens thing. A lot of people that I know, you
know, they had these dreams of being this or doing that and
they don't get to live it out. And so I think most people,
unless they're bitter, crappy, angry people are pretty happy
when they see somebody that getsto go out and makes their life

(49:53):
work and their family and their,their wife and kids allow them
to make their life work and their bosses when it all works
together. I think people appreciate that
and they think it's pretty cool.And so, I mean, I, I mean, I was
asked today by, you know, one ofthe clerks in court and the
judge you going fishing this weekend.
So, you know, it's, it's definitely different, but I, I'm

(50:13):
an anomaly and I always have been so, so and I'm fine with
it. Aveco not only makes incredible
outdoor clothing, but they care about anglers.
With their 10% pledge, Aveco andthe Shed family donate at least
10% of the company's profits to conservation and making fishing

(50:34):
better. Now back to the show.
How do you keep, I mean, me and you've talked over the years
several times about like what you're going home to.
Like, I mean, I've got to go. I got to get back to court
because I got 130 cases. Like how do you not hit a brick
wall? Like how do you not just get

(50:55):
totally exhausted? I mean, a lot of what I do,
fortunately we can schedule way ahead of time.
So I know when the dates are, wecan play around with them, you
know, to make sure that they arearranged around times that I
know that I can make it. And the staff at my office, they

(51:15):
do a lot of the preparation to get it all ready.
So, you know, I don't know what it's like being a race car
driver because being a fishermanis certainly not like this.
But you know, some Formula One race car driver, I don't know if
they just drive up in their Ferrari, smoke a cigarette,
crush it out on the ground, put their helmet on and get in there

(51:36):
and just drive because everyone else is taking care of
everything. But they're the the expert,
they're the talent. So I mean, like, I don't know
that that's kind of what I feel like sometimes because I know
the small area of law that I practice.
I know it backwards and forwards.
I know it extremely well. I've been doing it a long time.
So they just tee everything up and it makes it a lot easier.

(51:57):
But that process makes it easierfor the courts.
The judges know that my law firms, which you know, I'm, I
don't own the law firm, I just worked there, but that our firm,
our stuffs together, you know that I'm going to be there on
time, ready to go on point. All the documents are going to
be in a row. And so once you get a mechanized

(52:19):
process, process is very important in anything you do.
I think once you get that down and you know, it's not, it's not
terrible, but you know, there are times when, I mean, I've had
to change plans and drop my boathere, drop my boat there, fly
home, you know, for a week and then turn around and come back.
I did that with 10 Killer and inbetween the, yeah, in between

(52:43):
the Sabine and 10 Killer, I had to do that 'cause we're like 2
weeks downtime. I'm not driving from Texas to
Virginia and then turn around going to Oklahoma.
So I left my boat in Saldanes and flew back and forth and it
it worked out. So it's not easy, but people
around me support me in that andthey don't give me a bunch of
grief. So that makes it easy.

(53:04):
If you hadn't have gone back andchased this, would you still
have this itch or do you think you would have just?
Joined the. Golf Club and been a lawyer.
No, I think I would have would have still had this that, that
that was the problem. It it wasn't going anywhere.
And I didn't want to be one of those guys because you got to
remember all the guys that I grew up with fishing back in the

(53:26):
80s and 90s, they were all painters, HVAC guys, plumbers.
Did have one guy that was ACIA guy.
He was kind of interesting. But he was the CIA and an
angler. Oh yeah.
Yeah, he was a pretty well knownguy here in Virginia.
He's since passed away. But yeah, he would disappear for
a couple of months and then comeback and you just, you knew.

(53:50):
You just didn't ask him where hewas.
So. But.
And it came out in his obituary that he had worked for the CIA.
But we all knew it. So, but so you know, all these
guys, they were all, I was 15/16/17 and they were all 40.
So I had watched a lot of these guys, especially the really good

(54:13):
ones. And life always happened to
those guys, guys that were a lotbetter than me.
And I, I sometimes bitter peoplecome up to you at gas stations
and everything they say, oh man,we got a guy around here, he'd
kick your butt. He'd do this, he'd do that.
He should be out there, but he'snot.
And it's probably because money,health, family, something.

(54:37):
And so I watched that happen to a ton of guys and I knew that I
was at a point around in my early 40s.
I was like, it's kind of now or never.
And so I did it and I think I was a 49 year old rookie, which
made me like the oldest rookie. Now that you'll ever see again
unless I get booted off the elites and make it back.

(54:58):
But, but I guess you're not a rookie at that point.
But, but you know, I, I just thought a lot of those guys, I
watched them and they had, they had regrets and they always
thought I could have done this, you know, I could have been a
contender. Well, I, I didn't, I didn't want
to leave anything on the table and I want to do everything I
could to make it. And that's why I fished 2

(55:20):
divisions several years in the Opens, you know, back when it
was 3 divisions, I guess, and you know, made a serious effort
at it. So I just, I didn't want to look
back because yes, I would have had that itch and it would have
always been in my mind. But now it's not because I've
done every single thing that I thought I might be able to do.
Never thought I could win AOY but but I thought I could make

(55:42):
the Classic and I thought I could, you know, win a
tournament. Well, I mean, and I think it, I
think this is true for almost everybody in this industry.
I don't think fishing for many of us is something that you
choose. It's just it's what you have to
do. You know, like in my household,
Sarah will tell me to go fishinglike in time because I needed,

(56:03):
you know, you need to go. That's my release.
I don't think it's an option. You're right, but it's so it's
so easy to to fall into life andbe like, because I mean, if you
if I think it was hard when you're younger to do it well,
it's even crazier when when you've got to fit, like you've

(56:25):
got all this stuff around you and you, you know, do you think
that that taught your family a good lesson watching you do
that? I hope it did because I mean,
you know it, I don't, I mean, obviously I can't thunk a
basketball or, you know, I'm notgoing to be president or
something. But I mean, I, I think that

(56:46):
people can do an awful you can do anything you want short of
being a 5 foot eight guy trying to thunk a basketball, or at
least me. So I think you can do anything
you want. I like to hopefully people
around me, my, my two kids and other people, you know, see that
and they take from that the adaptability because they came

(57:08):
when they were younger. I made six federation nationals
in a row. The TBF side, the that side,
not, not BASS and, and they cameto several of those.
So we traveled there and you know, they were pulled up on
stage and they came into the stadium and stuff.
I made the last day. And so, I mean, we got to travel

(57:31):
some, which was cool. And I, you know, I see and well
have seen in the past mainly people like Steve Kennedy and
Bill Lowen and Palinic now and some of the other guys bringing
that and Jacobson bringing theirfamilies around.
I think that's really cool. And it definitely is a different
upbringing. Not saying that we did that, we
did not. I mean, you know, but they would
come with me to a tournament andit would be a fun, a fun thing.

(57:55):
And I, knock on wood, usually did well.
Anytime they show up, I do well.They've been to two tournaments
in the Elite Series. I won one and then the classic,
you know, I did pretty well in the one classic I finished.
So I, I guess they should have come to more tournaments, but
but you know, so they've seen a lot because of it.
And, you know, hopefully that also I know got them out of

(58:17):
their little Richmond enclave that they grew up in.
And so I think they've seen a lot more than than some of their
contemporaries that they grew upin.
So I, I hope they got something from it.
I know they had some fun along the way.
They also got to see their dad, their spouse chase a dream.

(58:38):
And I don't think that I, I often think about it like it's
there's a lot of people who livelife without that or everything.
You know what I mean? That that's a literally a dream.
Like the only way they can thinkof it is to close their eyes.
But to whether you achieve it ordon't achieve it, whether you
had have won last August or not,you've still won by chasing.

(59:02):
Like you're not in your office thinking, Gee, I should have,
could have, would have, which israre in in today's world, I
would say. It, it is rare and that's
something that I feel very luckybecause you know, I've always
had that dream and that drive also.

(59:25):
But sometimes you got to temper it and sometimes you got to lay
back for a while. And the problem is a lot of
times when you lay back and let off it for a little while, it
just goes away. It just slips away and getting
back to something like that. You know, you may say someday
I'll do it, but a lot of times there's some days don't ever
happen. And I've seen it happen with a

(59:47):
lot of people and in different things, not not fishing
necessarily, but many different things.
And you never know when it's going to be over.
So you might as well chase it. But at the same time, I mean,
it's, it's not for the faint of heart.
You know, there there are a lot of I mean, I can tell you story

(01:00:08):
after story of anglers that losttheir businesses, finances,
marriages, everything else over chasing this dream people that
are. So bitter they can't even look
at all the trophies they want. And so it's, it's not, it's not
for the faint of heart. And, you know, but you only live

(01:00:32):
once, so you might as well, you know, make it count.
Because if you do it right, onceis enough.
Is there any way to change that?I do think that going to no
entry fees in the elites, while I believe BASS hit the target,

(01:00:53):
they weren't anywhere near the bullseye the way that they
executed it. I think that's evidenced by how
it was altered after that. But I think that the no entry
fee is something that makes it much more manageable for people.
You're not going, you know, you can sustain not doing well for

(01:01:14):
three or four years in the current entry fee environment
versus before no one could. I mean, almost nobody could
withstand 3 or 4 bad years before unless you had incredible
sponsors. But you know that this is a
whole other Ave. that would be awhole other two shows to
discuss. But you know, the the industry

(01:01:37):
is changing. A lot of younger people coming
into it, they don't need as much, so they're willing to work
for less. And you know, industry may be
shrinking a little bit. So I think deals are getting a
little tighter. I know they have because a lot
of people send me contracts to look at and you know, on the
elite series and other trails when they get contracts.

(01:01:58):
And so I see how things are havechanged.
And so I think that the entry fees is a tremendous, tremendous
step in the right direction. And again, it was on target, but
nowhere close to the bullseye ofhow it was executed.
But I think that the money aspect of things is it's a, it's
a big impediment big because back back growing up, the guys

(01:02:21):
that were fishing, like I said, they were literally painters,
HVAC guys, plumbers and a bunch of them, not the guys that own
the companies, like the guys that were just turning wrenches
and painting so they could afford, you know, a little boat
at the time and stuff and they could compete because people
wouldn't be out there practicingfor four days ahead of the BFL.

(01:02:45):
And now a lot of it's changed. And so I think there are some
structural inherent issues that I think could be cured, but it
will take a, someone with a hellof a spine and vision, which I
think is drastically lacking in the industry, but a, a vision of
where it can, this industry can go and how it gets there.

(01:03:06):
And, you know, hopefully someonecan, can figure it out to make
it better for the younger guys. I mean, I want to see it get
better just because I like fishing and I like the industry
and I'm a fan. But for me personally,
financially it, it, it doesn't affect me at all.
But a lot of young guys, it's, it affects a lot of them.
I mean, I see it out there. So even with the reduced entry

(01:03:28):
fees. Yeah, that I've always said
that's the most unfair thing when you we like to, people like
to compare it to other sports, whether it's golf or whatever.
And it's, there's no comparison because I mean, baseball you
can't get because even if you'remaking league minimum and you're
a pitcher, the guy you're pitching to that's making 20

(01:03:50):
million a year and you're makingleague minimum, you're not
thinking about money when you throw that ball.
You know, because you're still making league minimum.
You're still making more money than than than most of the
people you went to school with in most situations.
So you're still you're not. But in this sport, gosh, it's

(01:04:11):
hard to compete against somebodywho is literally a millionaire
from this sport. And you don't know how you're
going to put gas in to get home from this event.
Like it that's. It's very, it's difficult, it's
not fair, world's not fair. So figure out a way around it.
And for me, my way around it, because I saw it in the early

(01:04:35):
90s, my way around it was quit go make as much money as you can
and hope that you can get back to it one day.
And so I mean, it was a different way to skin a cat.
But now on the upside, I mean like now with social media and
everything, if you can somehow figure out how to get the

(01:04:55):
eyeballs and be a compelling character, if you want to make a
living in the fishing industry, you don't have to fish
tournaments. So but I'm almost I'm seeing a
much bigger separation in tournament angling versus making
a living in the fishing industry.
I could have stayed making a perfectly decent living guiding

(01:05:16):
in the Mid-Atlantic states, running my little lure company.
I mean, I could have made a perfectly fine living.
But we all have that competitive.
Many of us have that competitiveedge and we want to compete
against the best. The problem is it now takes, I
mean, my boat probably retails for 1/20.

(01:05:37):
My truck probably retails for 6065.
All the equipment. I mean, there is such a gigantic
barrier to entry. I mean, I, I don't, I don't
know. I mean, that's something that
can't, you can't get around it. And you know, with, with
baseball, I mean, I don't know how much a bat and a ball and a

(01:05:59):
gloves cost, but it isn't that much.
And I don't know about a whole set of clubs.
I mean, what two or three grand probably for the nicest, most
custom set of clubs and then go to a, you know, you go to a
public golf course or get some lessons.
You could do that for 10 years and it would be vastly cheaper
probably than one year of tournament bass fishing at at a

(01:06:22):
high level with premium equipment.
So that that's an issue. So it's it's hard, but but there
is something cool driving aroundthe country chasing little green
fish, having a chance to win 100grand.
You can't can't get away from it.
Do tournament mornings? Do you still get as excited on
tournament? Like what does a tournament

(01:06:43):
morning feel like for you? I don't, I really don't.
It's, you know, I mean, I'm interested very often, you know,
to get to my first spot. If someone's on it, what am I
going to do? Depending on who it is, Am I
going to get yelled at if I try to go in there?
Someone going to throw somethingat me, But you know, do I just

(01:07:05):
move on? And then it's fun, the puzzle of
it and you know, knowing that onany given day you have a chance
to be the best. That's the one neat thing about
this is with golf, I mean, everybody's locked into this
course. Everybody's playing the same
holes, everybody plays from the same Tees in this.

(01:07:27):
I mean, you pull out of the rampat 10 Killer where we just came
back from. You can take a left, you can
take a right. It's up to you.
It's free country. You can go anywhere you want,
and you can go flip bushes if you want in some dirtier water.
You can go down and throw minnows and down by the dam if
you want. You can do whatever you want.
And that's where there's an art to this and a creativity that I

(01:07:50):
like. And sometimes you figure
something out that's different. It's a location, maybe it's a
bait presentation, whatever it might be, and figuring out that
puzzle and figuring out an angleand getting one up on everybody,
that's just something that's neat.
So that that's what I am anxiousabout and look forward to about

(01:08:11):
tournament fishing. But in the morning, I mean, I
don't know if I'm just jaded or old or what I am, but even
sitting there, sitting next to Jay Shakurat on this side and
you know, Chris Johnson on that side, Trey Mckinney's right
there and you know, Hackney's right here.
I don't get freaked out by that because I, I know that I beat

(01:08:33):
every single one of them before and so I, I can do it again,
despite the fact that I am in court the week before.
But what I really get fired up about is trying to figure it out
and the excitement of getting that fish out of a Bush at 10
killer that you think is incorrectly think is going to

(01:08:54):
get you into the top 50. You know, and just that's what I
find very interesting. But I, I don't get, I really
don't get nervous. I, I was even only nervous at
Champlain for probably about 15 or maybe 30 seconds.
And that was when at the at the end it was, it was Chris

(01:09:17):
Johnson. I I think Robert G had gone then
Chris Johnson, but like Matt, Matt Robertson was still hanging
around and he was, you know, he was telling me, man, you got
this, you better put your bag down in the water.
Bring every ounce of water up there that you can and Palinix
behind me. He literally said, run your

(01:09:38):
little lawyer legs up there as quick as you can and put the bag
up there. And, you know, and, and, and so
I because he's always back therefilming stuff.
And and so I did everything theysaid and I ran up there and I
was nervous for that little period of time because I knew
how close it was going to be. But that really is about the

(01:09:58):
only time I can think that I wasreally had butterflies or was
nervous on the Elite series. I don't know.
I mean, maybe it's because I'm in court and if I do something
really inappropriate or wrong, Imean, I guess I could be held in
contempt and they can put me in jail.
No one's probably putting me in jail on on the water.
So you know what I really have to worry about?

(01:10:19):
I mean, it's, it's fishing so. Do do you find yourself much
like if I talk to 23 year old Edand you had have made, if you
had have made the top one 50s that you narrowly missed back
then, were you different then orhave you always been kind of
this calm competitor? I wouldn't say I'm calm, but I

(01:10:44):
would say that back back then, Idefinitely was more, I
definitely was more animated on the water and and I I was not in
as comfortable a spot as I am today.
But you know, you don't see me out there on the water screaming

(01:11:04):
or, or mugging for the camera or, you know, falling down on my
deck. If I lose a fish or something,
you just won't ever see me doingthat because that's time that
you can get another cast out andcatch another fish.
I mean, I go through my process.I catch a fish, weigh it, put in
in the live well, keep going back and even my wife gets, you

(01:11:24):
know, she gets frustrated sometimes watching other people
who are collapsing on the deck and screaming and hooting and
hollering. I said, look, it's just
different people. And she's like they're wasting
time. They need to shut up and go
catch another fish. So but so, but but 23 year old
me was was more more animated. You know, the, the very first

(01:11:47):
tournament that I ever fit like the, they were the invitationals
back then. Now they're the opens, but the
invitationals, just like the opens, a lot of top tier pros
fished them. And the first one that year was
on the Potomac where I grew up. I said, well, I'm this is it.
And I remember the last day thatI fished, I finished like in the

(01:12:11):
top 20, like 20th or 16th or something.
Great finish for a 20 couple year old unknown guy.
But I remember fishing that tournament and I caught a fish
on a buzz bait right at the end of the day in Chickamaxin Creek.
And as I was throwing it in the boat, my rod exploded and the
fish fell on the bottom. It was like a 5, five and a half

(01:12:33):
pounder, a big fish. And I remember there were a
bunch of guys around me, including a very good friend of
mine, Frank Poyer. And I just remember going, yes,
yes. And totally uncharacteristic.
He makes fun of me to this day about that.
So because it was so out of character for me, because I
mean, I just, I just don't, that's just not me.
I mean, everybody's different. But so at 23, I was a little bit

(01:12:56):
different. But now I mean, I, I really
enjoy and I'm more motivated by figuring out the puzzle, doing
something a little different. And like almost every time that
I do well and almost most wins that people have, they're
usually doing something different.
And you know, last year I made the three top 10s, including

(01:13:20):
that one win, and I was doing something different than pretty
much everybody else in each one of those tournaments, either
location wise or pattern wise. I mean, at Murray, everybody was
fishing herring. I call it 1 fish fishing
herring, you know, but, but so I, I like figuring out the

(01:13:40):
puzzle, figuring out something alittle different, getting an
angle that works that other people don't don't find.
But like this year it hadn't worked.
So you know. I've run a Yamaha outboard for
over 30 years. It has got me home safe each and
every time. If you enjoy this podcast,
remember Yamaha supports it and they care enough about you to

(01:14:01):
make this ad read very short. Now back to the show.
But I got a. Couple left, yeah.
And I you got a couple that I think you can do well on.
I can, I can, I mean, I've, I'vedone well on Saint Clair.
I've fished it a lot and the Mississippi River, it should be
good for me, you know, so I'm, I'm looking forward to getting
back up there too, so. When you look at fishing, what

(01:14:23):
is fishing given in your life? It, it literally has gotten me
almost everything because you know, I'm not a big guy and I
went to an all boy school, so a very athletic school.
And so I wasn't until I got intowrestling in in high school

(01:14:45):
where your size didn't really matter.
And I did decently at that untilthen, you know, I mean, I wasn't
on the football team. And once, once, you know, I,
once we got to about 7th or 8th grade, although I was very good
at lacrosse, I was too small andnot quite fast enough.
So, so I got blown out of that. But fishing always was something

(01:15:08):
that people knew I did. And so it got me friends that
were on the wrestling team and they got me into wrestling.
And one of my friends from that wrestling team, two of them
actually, I mean, I'm in business with right now and some
different business things. You know, my wife, I mean, I, I
know that when I met her, I'm sure it stuck out to her that,

(01:15:31):
you know, we talked about or I talked about fishing a lot
because she, she knew, she knew zero about fishing.
So I mean, it stuck out in her mind and I think that that
probably didn't hurt, you know, try to be memorable.
You know, that's, that's something that we all probably
fight with in life. And then I mean my job at the
law firm, I mean, fishing is oneof those commonalities that I it

(01:15:54):
really cuts across almost every single socio economic racial
background. I mean, everybody if they don't
fish. Oh, my dad loves fishing.
Oh, my uncle, he loves fishing or oh, I always used to go to my
river, you know, to the to this river and we used to catfish.
I mean, not just bass fishing, but some kind of fishing.

(01:16:15):
It really, I think it's might belessening just because of our
society and being locked up on these things all the time, these
phones. But it's a great, it's a great
thing where for me, it has always been a common thread and
I've been able to adapt and talkto people from every walk of
life about it. And I attribute a lot of that to

(01:16:39):
when I was guiding, you know, I was guiding 100 and 5000 to 150
days a year between the Potomac,the upper Susquehanna, other
bodies of water on the Chesapeake Bay and other rivers
in Virginia. And you know, you're stuck on a
20 foot boat or 18 foot boat with two people for 8 hours.

(01:17:00):
I mean, you don't just sit therein silence.
And I took everybody out from, you know, sports figures around
the DC area to plumbers to Tony Fauci.
I had Tony Fauci on my boat. So you know, so it it.
Is Tony a good angler? He listened.

(01:17:23):
So he, he, he was, he was a friend of my buddy's dad.
They both worked at NIH together.
And again, I grew up in DC, in the DC area.
And so I took them out for, on aguide trip on the Potomac.
And he listened intently, did exactly what I was telling him
to do. And he caught fish and my

(01:17:48):
buddy's dad did not because he would not listen.
So, and we were just throwing, you know, 6A fire Tigers, Bomber
fire Tigers. So but yes, I've, I've, I've,
it's been, you know, fishing really is one of those great
things that cuts across a lot ofboundaries.
And you know, whether it's saltwater fishing, freshwater

(01:18:08):
catfish, bass, Tarpon, whatever,that there's still something
intriguing about it. Even though we're all locked up
on computers and everybody is watching this on a computer or a
phone, there's still something about the outdoors and still the
mystery and promise of getting out there and wrangling
something that is not human and enjoying that experience and

(01:18:32):
letting them go the vast majority of the time.
And there's just something mysterious about it.
Just like that little bobber I used to watch when I was a kid.
Yeah, yeah. It's a puzzle with no answer,
you know, no definite. And it's it's, I would say it's
like the Rubik's Cube, but it's got unlimited moves and

(01:18:52):
unlimited colors. And you you'd end just when you
think you figured it out, I've got it.
You're like, oh, they just screwed me again.
That, that's what. It is it, it is humbling.
It is a, it is a humbling sport.And, you know, after last year,
I, you know, I, I couldn't fish all the tournaments last year

(01:19:13):
because I had a kidney stone issue and got, you know, I had
to come home and scheduled for surgery and everything.
But, but I, I thought, man, I fished 7 tournaments.
I had three top 10s. I won one.
I am going to roll into 2025. This is it.
And it's a humbling sport, you know, and it's just the, the you

(01:19:36):
don't really, you don't know when you're going to do well.
Sometimes you don't know when you're going to do poorly.
And I've, I was always very consistent until I got to the
elites. And I don't know really what's
happened. But I mean, you know, it's, it's
fishing. So it could be worse.
I could be not fishing the Eliteseries this year so.

(01:19:57):
Well, like you said, life happens and the elites has a way
of make like I mean who's consistent?
Like literally if you look on the last two years, I mean.
It. It's so like, I mean, Trey
McKinney, I mean, he's pretty consistent over the last year,
but the sample size is so small right now.

(01:20:19):
So you can't but but it's like you just look at at just how you
look what Easton Fothergill's done this year, You know what I
mean? Like he made four top 10s in a
row and you know, and then got like an 80th, you know, like it.
It's just, it's hard. It's not freaking.

(01:20:40):
Easy. No, it's, it's very volatile and
there are 10 to 20 guys and I and I, I've been around a long
time there. There's 10 or 20 guys that
they're different. There's 10 or 20 guys that are
different. I mean, you know, the, the
Walters of the world, the Corey and Chris Johnston's, the, you

(01:21:01):
know, obviously Trey McKinney, there are guys that are
different and they they are better and you know, but that
it's like that in any sport. I mean, you take, I don't know,
the worst player from the Chicago Bulls in the 90s and
he'd still be better than anyonethat was probably in your state.

(01:21:22):
But but then next to Michael Jordan, he looks like an idiot.
So, you know, it's like that in any sport, but it's been very
strange. But I mean, to see people like,
I mean, maybe I should be in thebottom where I am down in the
90s. But you know, you look at
Zaldane, Steve Kennedy, even Jason, Jason Christie Hackney is

(01:21:45):
getting out of it. But I mean, a lot of the guys
that are down there, it just it makes gussy.
I mean, it makes zero sense. So it's it's a very volatile,
volatile sport right now. And I I think it's gotten that
way and I don't really know why.I mean, I guess maybe it's
forward facing to some extent, but it, I don't know.

(01:22:05):
It's, it's very strange, strange.
It's humbling. It it's wild because weirdly
enough, I was literally driving this morning to a meeting and I
was thinking about that very thing.
Like I was like, because I was thinking about Gussie and I was
thinking about Hackney and Christie and all these guys that
are having a tough year. And these are some people that
we've never seen have a tough year ever, you know, And then

(01:22:29):
but then I was like in forward facing makes.
But then you look at Fighter andyou look at Bill.
Owen, it's in your loan. He's killing it.
They it's just an evil sport. I'm I'm certain of that.
I mean, it's an evil evil like you're, you're the amount of
times you can, I mean the best to ever do it.

(01:22:50):
Kevin Van Damme, 32 years he fished, he won 25 bass master
events. He's the best ever.
Like when you look at the how freakishly rare a victory is,
you're all sickos is what it tells me.
I think, well, we're gluttons for punishment, you know, we,
we. That's the thing though.

(01:23:11):
I mean, they're you lose pretty much every time you go out, you
know, if you just look at finishing first.
But you know, we we all lose pretty much every time.
And there are guys like Zaldane and like Swindle who have been
banging around for a long time. They've been second God knows
how many times. And you know, you just it's Wes

(01:23:36):
Logan, you know, who just won a 10 killer.
I mean, he said when it's your time, it's your time.
And I always thought that was just a line that people would
say. And it was BS.
I, I experienced it last year. I mean, you know, for, for me to
have it turn out the way it did in that whole tournament was
just very, it was my time. There's like nothing I could do

(01:23:58):
to screw it up. The fishing gods were not going
to let me lose it. And it just, you know, and it
happens and, and I, I don't knowwhat happens on certain years,
but you know, the sport's unforgiving and, you know, the
standings are what they are. And it should be, you know,
can't hang around if you suck. That sounds like something that
would have come out of Corey Johnson's mouth.

(01:24:21):
But, you know, but I mean, it's true.
You can't, this is a competitivesport.
And if you're not performing, then you got to go and perform
better or be quiet. So, but it's, it can be a tough
sport, but man, it's fun traveling around and having a
good time, seeing different places, catching some big fish
here. They're getting a couple checks.

(01:24:42):
You know, it's it's fun. Yeah, and that, and that's the
most important thing about life,if you ask me.
I mean, at the end of it, you'd like to say, hey, that dude had
fun. That dude, it was life made.
I mean, life's too short not to have fun.
That's it. You've got actually, I want to

(01:25:04):
ask you one more thing because you've got to go somewhere that
I want to go. And I've I've teased of going
there one day and I've never gone there.
And that is Fort Collins to the Town Pump, the oldest bar, one
of the oldest bars. This is wild.
So one of the cameramen, quite possibly the best cameraman that

(01:25:28):
that we have on the elite. Scene.
You should not say that. I mean, he man, he's awfully
good, but you know, there there are plenty of other great ones
as well. But so Jake owns this bar and
has for quite a long time and growing up around DCI had a, a
friend that I met in that tacklestore.
He was two or three years ahead of me in school and man, we used

(01:25:51):
to fish all over the place. I mean, almost like a brother.
I mean, I don't have any brothers or sisters, but he was
almost like a brother, Big Brother.
We used to drive around as DodgeDaytona, going to all these
different little ponds, golf course ponds and stuff.
And, and it was just, it was awesome.
And he ended up in college because he liked skiing.
Also, he went out up to Fort Collins where, where, what is

(01:26:15):
it? Colorado State is?
And so he was out there and he and he got a job at, at this bar
and stuff. And so number of years, I mean,
I've never gotten out there. So eventually he's getting
married and so I go out there and he's getting married in
Minnesota, But but I go out there and so I go to the bar

(01:26:38):
where he's a bartender hanging out there and everything having
a good time. And and I don't ever put two and
two together. Don't even know until down the
road when I make the elite series.
Mike's like, hey, man, you you got to talk to Jake.
I'm like, who the heck is Jake? And he says, well, he owns the

(01:27:01):
town pump where you were, you know, this, this is like 20
years later, 15 probably shoot 25 years later, 20 years.
And so he says you got to talk to Jake.
And so I found out that Jake owned the bar where MM worked.
And Mike passed away this past year.

(01:27:22):
And you know it, I think it hit a lot of people pretty hard.
Super nice guy, never had a bad thing to say about anybody.
You know, he was not old, he just had some health issues that
eventually got to him. But so it was pretty wild that
shortly after that, you know, meand Jake end up on the same boat
at Champlain. He had never been on my boat

(01:27:44):
before. Even though I asked to have him
as a cameraman on my boat a couple times, that was never
allowed. So he came out that day and that
day was it was just like a magical day.
And we joked about, you know, how Mike would have gotten a
kick out of watching it. You know, the two of us, the two

(01:28:06):
guys that he because he, you know, he worked a regular job.
Didn't, you know, kind kind of had gotten away from fishing and
never had a boat, but fished from shore and stuff and loved
it. And me and Jake definitely had a
couple of times during that day when I know we were thinking
about Mike and how much he wouldhave gotten a kick out of
knowing that Jake was there tournament that I won.

(01:28:30):
You know, I think I had the biggest bag that day.
Just everything went perfect. I mean, I think I I might have
caught the biggest fish that daytoo.
I mean, it was just an incredible day.
The only day that I think Jake has been on my boat for the full
time. And it's just a strange world
fishing. You never, you never know what
are the odds that a guy that I grew up with in the 80s fishing

(01:28:51):
in DC ends up being super buddies with the guy who's
filming me in 2025, literally almost 40 years later, 24.
So just to fishing's a, a neat sport.
It cuts across all boundaries, age, money, everything.
And it's something I feel very fortunate to have been able to

(01:29:13):
participate in and lucky enough to get to the top level of the
top organization in it and to have had some success.
It's been, it's been great, it'sbeen awesome.
It's a wild story. Jake's an amazing, amazing guy.
I'm sure your friend was sorry to hear about that, but like

(01:29:35):
you've said several times, life happens and does.
It's good to see somebody live in it like you are.
Well, I've I've been very lucky.Great people around me, little
bit of smarts, a lot of luck being in the right place, the
right time. And, you know, a lot of times
things have broken my way and, you know, we'll see what happens

(01:29:58):
the next couple. And if not, I'll end up fishing
the EQS at the end of the year. And as I think I told you ahead
of time, after the EQS, that Okeechobee tournament will be my
100th tournament with BASS, which seems like a neat, neat
milestone to make, you know, andhopefully I can pull out maybe

(01:30:19):
another win or a couple of greatperformances here up north.
I look forward to it. I I said at the beginning that
I, I regretted this taking so long.
I mean, we have talked about it and, and it just, it just, I try
to get everybody on. I didn't get John Garrett on
till a little while ago either. And I missed his win because it

(01:30:41):
was back to backs and it that's how, how it works.
But now I regret not having you on sooner.
Ed, thank you. Thank you for the great the
great conversation. Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
And you know, I'll come back anytime and you know, I'm never
at a loss for word. So if you need if you need some
filler call me. Well, that's a good thing.

(01:31:03):
In your line of work. In both your lines of work.
I have to exactly. Thank you very much.
Yeah, man. Thanks.
Has promised an interesting conversation with Ed Loughran,
and maybe the longest conversation I've ever had with
a lawyer that I didn't have to pay for because I've been The

(01:31:25):
lawyers generally charge you fortheir time just to talk.
But come to think of it, so do tournament MCS.
So luckily we've got something figured out.
I hope you have enjoyed this show.
Make sure to leave a comment, like, comment, subscribe, do all
that things to stroke the algorithm.

(01:31:47):
Have a great week. Enjoy being and until next time
Bob Cobb take it away. Thanks for watching.
Please like, comment and subscribe because Bob Cobb of
the Bass Masters told. You to you here.

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