November 12, 2024 • 34 mins
The ultimate male fantasy is rather flat & boring.
'The Handmaid's Tale' by Margaret Atwood is told from the point of view of an unnamed narrator. It takes place in a USA where there has been an overthrown government and everything is now dystopian. Our girl is 33 yrs old & a handmaid, whose only purpose is to give birth. Life is very different: family structures changed, super totalitarian (everyone is watched), a lot of violence (capital punishment/suicide/torture), monotonous routine & a sprinkle of religiosity. It has very short chapters interspersed with her recollections of the past plus a little future historical context right at the end.
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Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:02:46) Themes/Questions
(00:24:30) Author & Extras
(00:27:30) Summary
(00:29:43) Value 4 Value
(00:31:30) Join Live!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyrin Down (00:00):
The ultimate male fantasy is rather flat and boring.
Welcome, mere mortalites, to another episode of the mere mortals book reviews. I am your host, Kyrin, here on 13th of all 11th. So 13th November
(00:22):
2024.
Live as usual at 11 AM Australian Eastern Standard Time. And as you surmise surmise, this is the podcast where I outline my plans for the ultimate
misogynistic
patriarchal
fantasy society. That's right. I'm going into it. I'm telling you all what I'm actually like inside.
Okay. I won't be doing that but I will be touching upon that in this book that we do have here. The Handmaid's Tale
(00:46):
by Margaret Margaret Atwood. It's published in 1985.
It's 314
pages in length.
Took me about 6 hours of reading to get through in total.
So it's told from the point of view of this unnamed narrator.
Although we do kind of get a name of hers name,
Ofred would being Of of Fred, which is, in a reference to a male name.
(01:12):
So but largely we don't know her actual name. We don't really know much about her at all, to be honest. We just start this narration at, you know, some point in her life, this being in her mid thirties.
And this takes place in the USA where there has been an overthrown government and there is now everything is now dystopian. So it's a dystopian fictional book. Our girl here, Alfred, is 33 years old and a handmade whose only purpose is to give birth.
(01:38):
What we see in this book, there's a lot of family structures have changed. It's very totalitarian.
So everyone is watched or looking out going like, oh, like, am I gonna get in trouble?
Is a lot of violence. A lot of violence in this book, capital punishment, suicide, torture, things like that.
A lot of monotonous routine as well, because it's not a particularly exciting book. It's really told within
(02:01):
the confines of her own mind mostly because there's very little dialogue
occurring between characters as well.
So
sprinkle of religiosity as well, if you want to add that in. So what we have in this book is there's very short chapters. They they're probably like
10 pages max. And how many chapters are we getting up to here? It's like 40 something in a book of only 300
(02:26):
and something pages. So, yeah, they're they're quite short chapters.
And it's interspersed with her recollections of the past
where she is currently in this dystopian. Right at the end, we get a little future historical context,
but it's largely just told from the well, it's all told from the point of view of this of this female character. So let's jump into some of the actual themes, the questions,
(02:50):
what's going on? Why is this book interesting, important, and what can it has to teach us perhaps? And,
with a speculative fiction like this and this is certainly speculative fiction, some
fiction like this, and this is certainly speculative fiction,
some people might want to say it's,
science fiction, but there's actually not that much sciency stuff about it. It's more think more along the lines of 1984
(03:11):
and brave new world and and things like that rather than, you know, fantasy and actual sci fi.
And, with something like this, the question is, like, could could this happen? Was is this actually a a realistic scenario? Was there enough
maybe,
trendings in this world that the world could go to a place like this? And I think this will really touch upon the theme of
(03:34):
relations between men and women and how they are very distorted in this in this world that we have in in this book.
So we get a taste of the both before and after.
Before is,
it there's no time
period for this, although it's kind of speculated that it was around the 2000 period perhaps. And it certainly referenced just a lot of normal technology,
(03:59):
that way that we are used to
or that we all used to maybe, like, 20 years ago. So, you know, there was things such as telephones. There were things such as computers,
electricity, all that sort of stuff. So just think of, you know, around the 2000 period.
And there was a lot of
liberty. There's a lot of freedom for women to choose their partners.
(04:20):
So, for example, we get to know about her and her relationship between this guy called Luke, who they had an extramarital affair. Luke was married.
He has a daughter with her,
I believe a daughter
and a child with her at the very least.
You know, she
is on good terms with her mom and,
and has,
(04:41):
you know, peers among society.
Got a, you know, has has a job, best friend who's a little bit alternative, is the lesbian, you know, it's like, oh, so but it's not the biggest deal either. Her mother was more, I guess, feminist or a trailblazer, trailblazer in some respects.
It seemed just like society as we
(05:04):
currently have now. I don't think there's that much worth more examining,
because, yeah, the more interesting aspect is, okay, well, what how is this future society very different from from what we have now?
And so what we see is this this revolution occurs in the USA, becomes total totalitarian,
and and there's a gradual enforcing of stricter and stricter laws.
(05:27):
Women aren't allowed to have jobs.
There's only special privilege and whatnot privileges.
You become like an underclass if you
are a single female or if you are in a second marriage or beyond that or especially if you're probably have alternative sexual preferences, LGBTQ,
(05:48):
whatever.
That that sort of stuff is frowned upon not very good. And there's a lot of,
financial
and social
and even
restrictions of physical freedom,
I. E. You're not allowed to leave the country and and things like this.
So,
what we see is that the post revolution,
(06:08):
basically, every interaction between male and female
is about sexual reproduction.
And the other thing to add to this and, you know, it's kind of hard to say this at certain points and,
and it gets all jumbled up because the storyline goes here and there. We only get information
at very, you know, sparsely
put out through it.
(06:29):
We also learned that there has been a crisis of sexual reproduction.
A lot of women have become sterile. I can't remember if it says the men have become sterile in general as well or in large weights.
I don't believe so. But in any case, the women certainly have become sterile in general. And so there's a premium placed on
(06:52):
girls who have been proved in the past to have
to have been able to give birth and the kind of
distance between her normal life as she once remembered and then where she is now is probably about 6 to 7 years. And so, yes, we know she she gave birth previously in the old world. And now in this new world, there's a premium on her
(07:15):
cause it's like, oh, well, we know she's not sterile. So what we see, there's not
it and it's not even sexual tension in general. It is purely sexual reproduction.
And so we don't see any laughter, complaining, banter,
friends or communities
in this world really, and especially not between men and women.
Perhaps they do. But we as we're seeing this only through the lens of this main character, we'll call it off red.
(07:43):
We we don't see what perhaps life's like for some of the other characters
behind the scenes or not in a lot more detail.
So
the you know, we have these kind of ritualistic sex for births with the wife there.
That's really all about sexual reproduction. We have
her perhaps like taunting the Guardians,
(08:04):
and,
she has a sexual escapade with Nick, which, you know, it's
it's kind of taboo. But once again, it has a sexual reproduction
aspect to it. The only reason she's doing this is because
she needs to get pregnant. Otherwise,
she could be shipped off to these colonies, really bad places where, you know, you'll die very, very quickly.
(08:25):
And the there's a doctor who she sees, he offers to have sex with her as well to,
to be able to reproduce.
And then every other interaction is between these kind of
uncaring
angels slash eyes slash guardians who are men who are basically
think of them as like army type people, whether they be in the Secret Service, whether they're foot soldiers or whether they're just general,
(08:48):
you know, peasants on the street, I guess. We're not peasants
workers on the street.
It's all
very, very restrictive. And there's and it's just, you know, straight
communication back and forth if there has to be any. There largely isn't.
And I can't recall a male and a female having even a minor conversation,
(09:10):
outside of all of these conventions. It doesn't seem that, you know, her buying groceries
and talking to the grocer is probably the the, the closest that we get to that. And even that is is very,
a strange situation because she's always with a if she goes out, she's always with another handmade.
I'll get on to what handmade actually is shortly.
(09:33):
But there's always another person kind of interspersed in between these these conversations.
But this is not just her, though. Even some of the women with perhaps different privileges
or different positions,
they all seem to have a very muted,
weird relationship
between
themselves and men,
even the ones that are, you know, meant to be their their partner. So for example, the the wife of the commander
(10:00):
is a
who is the guy who's he's like the top dog. He's he's basically, you know, one of the top top men in the totalitarian state. And
and, you know, he has he has the power, he has the privileges and thing things like that. And even his wife, who is
they also have privileges of short of sorts. There's very strange relationship between them. They don't seem to communicate.
(10:22):
They don't seem to get along well.
It's yeah, very strange. We, you know, don't even talk convivial,
convivial.
That's a shit word. Hate that.
Convivial
together.
There's no scenes of a wife or a daughter or an aunt or a Martha talking with a man. No social functions or get togethers without babies or or fear. Probably the only other interaction between men and women is is fear
(10:48):
in this,
in this world. And all of this is made possible through the structure of this world. So
we see this population decline as most women
are sterile.
Everyone is dressed in very strict attire. So the handmaids. So these are the the girls who
could potentially reproduce
are in red.
(11:09):
Wives of of top commanders and of important people addressed in blue. And these are women who are
infertile. They can't give birth. We have these daughters. So these are girls who are, you know, prepubescent
or perhaps just getting towards the age of reproduction,
who are dressed in white. We have the aunts, which are these kind of strict women who help enforce the laws and teach the handmaids how how to live, what their what their duties are in this new world, because they're
(11:41):
they're simultaneously
the most prized and important people because they're the only people who can give birth.
But they are also
the almost the lowest in a certain sense because
they they have no other purpose other than to give birth. And so
no one cares about their intellect. No one cares about,
if they can work or do anything else. Like, it's purely
(12:04):
you need to just keep your body safe so that you can give birth. And that's that's all there is for you. And
we also have these Martha's. So these are the kind of the cooks, the maids, the cleaners,
who are dressed in green.
So social interactions
are limited through the threat of violence or deportation to the colonies.
(12:25):
Once still talking about the structure here, very limited means of social progress
via giving birth to a child. That's the only way you could progress in this world,
for for these handmaids.
And indoctrination
means even female to female interactions are rather subdued. There's
an over pressing,
(12:46):
overbearing,
pressure to
conform,
to watch your words, to,
you know, if someone says something, you have to respond in the correct way.
Even Handmaids aren't meant to talk together,
even though they they will go grocery shopping together, for example.
It's very emotional. Outlets
(13:08):
are very limited and limited only to
big group gatherings which can be watched, such as these salvaging where they
kind of repent
or or get to
watch
a capital punishment taking place, birthing ceremonies where
a handmaid will be giving birth
and these kind of secret meetings or parties that only men can organize. So the whole picture I've given here is of this world where
(13:34):
man sucks to be a female. Right? It's it's not a nice place. And, you know, men men get to be at the top, men get to be in the army and,
and the Secret Service. They've they've got all the privileges. They
control what women do, their reproduction,
sexual, everything about them down to communication.
(13:55):
What a fantastic world. Right? Men, we've done it. We've made it to the top.
Unfortunately, it's not as amazing as it sounds. Not that that would be amazing at all anyway.
Woman finally put in their place. Right? And men get to have all the fun.
It's not like that. It's not like that at all. And
if you believe that this is what men would want as well, I'm not sure you really know, know men either because everything in this world is
(14:23):
applies to the guys. So
we see all the men are rather strict in their in their attire as well. There's no liberty or freedom in
in those cases. So the commanders, these men at the top, they're always in suits,
the bodyguards
or the drivers, the chauffeur, things like that. They've got a very strict attire as well.
(14:45):
Obviously, people in the army and the guardians,
they're strict, you know, in military gear. The eyes, I can't remember what they're dressed in, but these are the kind of Secret Service people.
All of them, you know, no one no one we really see dressing up in in anything crazy other than,
when they
break the rules and go to a secret party where they do have things like,
(15:09):
you know, sequin shots or,
you know, crop tops or things like this. And
so so
the men,
they they get all these restrictions as well. Okay. But, you know, they they can do what they want. Right? They
they they have control of over women's bodies. They could rape them, for example,
incorrect. Rape is even is, you know,
(15:31):
even worse for the men than it is for the women.
They get killed instantly because once again, if the sacral sexual reproduction is all that's important,
it's the guys who want to make sure that
that their children are getting birth right and not some other random dude. So rape or
even
consensual sex outside of
these very strict norms,
(15:53):
not not allowed prohibited, you're gonna die for that. So okay, well, that that's not so good.
Men also have limited ability to move up the hierarchy. They could only do this fire,
being like a good warrior and and fighting overseas.
And that's about it. I'd there doesn't seem much by business, doesn't really exist from what I can tell. All the businesses
(16:16):
are, you know, they're not allowed to have individual
names to be called, you know, milk and cheese, and you go there to to get milk and cheese.
Uh-huh. So so there's, you know, you can't create a business. There's no it's not like an entrepreneurial world, certainly.
Men also have to watch their words and be careful of tattletales. Men die in wars.
The life of an average man there appears to suck as well.
(16:40):
And
because, you know, if if this is the ultimate male fantasy world, right,
you would assume that men would just be able to have sex constantly. It'd be like, oh, you know,
amazing for them. But
it seems that in this world that
it's hard to tell because you're only getting it from the this this point of view of this one female in a very unique position.
(17:05):
We don't see, like, the general. So for example, you know,
who who provides them with the cheese? There's gotta be a cheese maker. There's gotta be someone who makes the materials to be able to make cheese. So there's gotta be a whole network, a world of of interactions going on, but we don't see that. We only see it from this one very
special position. It would be
(17:27):
it would be like
a
a person, a billionaire's daughter or something
giving a
a so she would be someone who maybe would have bodyguards around her her whole life. She would go to very special schools. She would probably only interact with
people of the highest class. It would be like her writing
(17:48):
a book of of how the world is like
and
the rest of the world would kind of just be like, man, this is this is not, you know, this is not how the world actually works. You know, we don't all live in ridiculous penthouses and
snap our fingers and things get cleaned or go to the best hospitals or anything like that.
(18:08):
It would be imagine that
and also her never escaping from the confines of Beverly Hills or or something like that. So
this world is is very distorted
just from the way we see it,
which is not to say that her position or is is something,
(18:29):
to to not be
thrown away as is, I mean, it's certainly an interesting position and I'll get on to could this happen in a second. But
from the world she describes,
it's it's so strange that I
I, I struggle to understand how it could work
if every interaction was like hers.
(18:51):
And it does seem to be that she just had this very, very one special, unique
position. And then I can also, you know, if if women are not giving birth in general, then how the hell is all of this other stuff happening? How how is she getting cheese
or
or milk without
the whole network of of peons and, you know, people who are peasants compared to her.
(19:15):
I don't know. It's hard hard to say. So could this happen?
And is this sort of world realistic?
You know, it is maybe is we have seen crazy behavior before in societies around the world. If you read anything about what, you know, Stalin's
Stalin's
Soviet Russia was like,
right at the top, that was a very, very strange, weird world. And even in some of the middle sections of society,
(19:40):
it was still a very strange world. There was still a lot of just normal interactions of, you know, people farming
and going to markets and things like that. But markets were distorted
because there was price controls and fixed pricing.
And when you got right up to the top levels of the
Politi Bureau or the
whatever was before the KGB, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.
(20:05):
The that was certainly a strange world. So and
Atwood herself said that all of the things that she based in this book, all of the behaviors, all the
things were were things she had written about and had a historical example for. So
obviously, then she's just picking and choosing different elements of of what we're we've seen in the real world and putting it together in this this creation that she has put
(20:31):
the rapidity of the change within 5 to 7 years. That's pretty crazy, though. That'd hard to be hard to believe that this could actually happen,
and almost certainly would be unsustainable
and unlikely for
the several reasons.
All of this applies even to the ones at the top making the rules and controlling. So commanders
(20:52):
voluntarily making less sex less fun for themselves.
I,
I struggle to believe that, you know, if you're the one
at the top controlling things, you think you'd want to make this world,
the best it could be for you. Right. But
even their secret parties,
he has to be very careful for and it's dangerous for him to go to
(21:14):
when
he has sex with with the handmade that's being offered.
It's very ritualistic.
You know, he's not meant to derive pleasure from it.
And
it's very, very strange and weird. It's like, well, if he controls everything, why wouldn't he make it better for himself?
Have all of life's pleasures been erased? You know, it seems like a society like this would need
(21:37):
some sort of communal things
such as the church to keep people in place
or gatherings to provide some sort. It just feels like people would break really quickly if this is what the world was like in general.
Just some range thing, like how can the most valuable people be allowed to roam the streets? So
(21:58):
she's she's like she can just go wherever she wants
to a certain extent. She's not being watched in this case. You know, if she just wanted to try and make a break for it, she could.
And she interacts with men who have,
by the sounds of it never had a woman in their life.
It doesn't seem to imply that sex sex is allowed outside of trying to reproduce and so in file infertile women.
(22:26):
And I don't get the feeling that they're allowed to have sex. So there's just
1,000, 100 of 1000 of men who have never had sex before. And they see like
a young
or young ish, a fertile woman
roaming around the streets and show them and to be guarding her. But it's like,
(22:46):
I don't know that that doesn't sound right to me that some guy who's never had sex before, he'd he'd be willing to do a lot to to make that happen.
For example, you don't put young men in charge of a harem lull.
Where's all the food material coming from? Because technology seems to have stalled.
If pre production is so important, then why isn't the population in terminal decline? Why aren't they
(23:10):
doing everything they can to maximize the chances of reproduction?
Yeah. Seems seems kind of strange.
Would older Baron women really care for another's child? So when they give birth,
it's the child is then given to the wives, but, you know, it's not their baby. So are they gonna actually care for them properly? And would they would they actually want that?
(23:33):
Taking someone's child away and not killing them seems like it could backfire. That seems pretty strange.
And men are so obsessed with women and not even wary of other men. There wasn't didn't seem to be much
wariness
of the commander, for example,
worrying like there's a there's a there's another dude living in his house, and he's not worried that this
(23:55):
sex girl who's sexually reproductive,
her door is not even locked at night. She could just walk out. She did. She just walks out and goes to this other dude's room and has sex with him and has to be, like, careful and and sneaky and tiptoe. And it's like, oh, the searchlights, but
she seems to do it rather easily. I don't know. Seems,
could this world actually happen? Yes. But
(24:18):
I not not
only portions of this. I I don't think that it would go the way that this it was described in this book. So it seemed rather strange. Anyway, let's let's keep going on. Let's jump onto the author some extra details.
Margaret Atwood was born in 1939.
They're still going strong, it seems. So good for her.
(24:40):
Canadian author. She's written extensively across multiple different genres, novellas,
you know, journalistic pieces, short stories,
I think even graphic novels, stuff like that,
and was very involved with current themes and write this to reflect some of the trends that she noticed growing up in postwar Canada.
And so hence the the kind of dystopian nature of it.
(25:03):
Canada, for example, it seemed that
a lot of women and when is the workforce
to, you know, for the war efforts and things like that? And then after the war, they were getting kicked out of jobs because people wanted to return to the way it was before. Women staying in the household, men working, that sort of stuff.
And there was a bit of tension going on then. So
(25:27):
she neither describes us as feminist nor science fiction,
which makes sense to me.
And it just seems more dystopian rather than misogynistic
in nature.
This book is one of those ones where it's, you know, it seemed to be like a female
rallying cry for feminists going,
this is what would happen if men could could get what they wanted exactly. We need to fight against this sort of thing. But it's like, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't I don't know any guy who would want to live in a world like this. Like, this is a this is a messed up world, which
(25:58):
is neither beneficial for men nor women. So
I don't know. I, yeah, I don't know about that. In terms of the actual book itself, I found the pacing
really, really quite excellent. Strings you along quite nicely by only providing these little glimpses of,
info here and there. You get this little Latin thing scratched into her cupboard, and it's like, oh, what does that mean? And you find on on later,
(26:22):
you're eventually learning about why the women are fertile, infertile
due to radiation and things like that.
So you learn more about this world. She's living in this world, but you only learn about it very gradually. And I thought that was pretty good.
And
the insights into how this character must feel and what's going on through our minds. You know, she thinks about suicide sometimes,
(26:47):
but then she thinks about her daughter. She thinks about Nick,
the man who, you know, she thinks might be dead, but maybe isn't. So there's still a little bit of hope.
And we get these little snippets of this black market material. She gets to see a photo of her daughter.
She'll get like a little special privilege. She can put on some lipstick with the commander. She goes out to a party. She sees her friend who ran away. Now, there's all these little snippets of action here and there that that feel realistic
(27:15):
in this whole
world of structured life and routine.
So just the way the book itself was written was, I thought,
really well done. The the way the actual structure of of how it was presented,
which will get us onto the final summary, similar books and some recommendations.
It's an okay book. My main problem was I found it kind of boring, to be honest.
(27:40):
There's a lot of reminiscing and old times and housework.
So it wasn't exactly like a fast paced novel, even though it it kept me it kept me engaged. But
it also wasn't like, wow, keeping me.
I wasn't fascinated as well. It was almost like
the right the the writing was well done, but the the actual content,
(28:02):
not so much, perhaps.
You know, it's believable in some sense, but I also didn't find myself transported into this world, imagining it
myself there, you know, perhaps because it was from the female point of view. And so
a lot of the things she said about,
you know, how her body's feeling,
her worries
(28:23):
of,
you know, having her child lost and things like this. I just thinks that I haven't
can't in many cases experience myself.
So
perhaps that's why I had this little bit of distance from the book.
Stylistically, I found it worked well, kept me motivated enough to keep going, but, you know, just there was there were some points where I'm like, it was getting a bit tedious. I'm not sure I wanna keep going on with this. So overall, I'm gonna give The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I don't know. 4 and a half out of 10. This, you know, maybe for some people you really like this. It's firmly in the camp of dystopian classics.
(28:58):
So I mentioned some of these 1984
Brave New World Fahrenheit 451. Give those a try if if you really enjoyed this book.
I used to think I loved dystopian's
books.
What I actually found was I just really loved 1984
and dystopian books in general. I've found to be honestly a bit underwhelming in many cases that
(29:21):
they're kind of like semi interesting, but it's also
it's also just like, man, this is that takes a lot of leaps and bounds to to get to this world where they're they're describing and just doesn't seem sustainable.
So,
she also had a follow-up in 2019,
30 year 34 years later. Wow. Called the testaments if you wanted to read that as well.
(29:43):
And, yeah, that's it for today. Thank you very much for joining in. This is a value for value podcast. So,
I put all this
value up here, this book review up for you up front.
You know, I hope this to be accessible anytime, any place, anywhere for anyone free of charge, of course, as well. I do not do sponsorships nor advertising
(30:04):
nor
any sorts of influence behind the scenes of the books that I'm picking. It's pretty much only just, I'll I'll go over some point, do a
a non book review episode of of how I choose the books I choose and and where I get them from.
So,
I do all of that and,
all of that up front. And I just ask that you, return that value in some shape or form. You can do this many ways. You could give it a, you know, a share and a like and and things like that on social media,
(30:35):
joining in live. And I'll touch about that shortly. I'd love to hear your book recommendations
of things that you think I would like or perhaps even ones that maybe I should stay away from if I'm saying that I might read them,
because, I've had some very helpful recommendations
recently. I forgot to mention this, but East of Eden by,
(30:55):
John Steinbeck, the book I reviewed just prior to this. Love, love, love, love. And that was by Johnny, who's actually joining us live as well. So, thank you very much for that, Johnny. Massive appreciation. I was probably gonna get to it anyway because I really love Steinbeck, but you telling me to to read that,
what has certainly pumped it up the order. So very much appreciated.
(31:17):
And,
yeah, the the last, you can support monetarily as well. That's a PayPal link down below, which would be awesome. And I would certainly shout you out if you sent through any any money to the channel for that.
I am live here on Wednesdays, Australian Eastern Standard Time at 9 AM. I've got a couple of people in the chat. So Johnny was here. Much appreciated Johnny. Lisa s says good evening.
(31:40):
I remember one girl with whom I went to uni had this book in one of her English
English lit courses.
I was never a big fan of dystopia.
Yeah. I mean,
the problem with that is always,
I
I have a very strong opinions
on forcing kids to read certain books.
(32:02):
English is important. Learning to read is important.
But forcing them to read certain books,
I think
is
is unhelpful
and
made me fall out of love with reading
when I had to read stuff like looking for allibrandy.
What was the one with the greases and pony kid? I've forgotten given the name of that,
(32:27):
even To Kill A Mockingbird. You know, I would probably have enjoyed reading that nowadays,
but I didn't enjoy it when it's like
you have to think what is the theme of the book and what was,
you know, I'm forced to talk about
the relationship
between
the the lawyer
and his son, whereas I'd maybe be more interested in the relationship between
(32:52):
the lawyer and the accused or things like this. And so
I can see why your friend would perhaps not get into that,
because,
when I was forced to Shakespeare,
maybe I'll get to Shakespeare one day, but it's it's gonna take a long time for the trauma
of, of my
English classes in high school to
(33:13):
to go beyond me. So thank you very much for joining, Lisa and Johnny. Much appreciated.
Call out to anyone. I will be doing these live Wednesday, 9 AM
Australian. Yeah. Sorry. 11 AM. Why am I saying 9? 11 AM Australian Eastern Standard Time,
which you'll have to just do some conversions in Google. Ask us ask Google for when that is into your local time zone.
(33:35):
And I I expect to be doing that really consistently
for
the foreseeable
6 months. After that, we'll see.
Might be traveling again.
And one also does some book reviews every now and then, which he puts on a Saturday. These are not live. So,
just look out for those on the YouTube channel and on the podcast itself.
(33:57):
So this was turned into a big one. Wow. Had a lot of thoughts on it even though I didn't actually
enjoy the book that much. That's how it goes, I guess.
So thank you very much for joining me, and I really do hope you're having a fantastic day wherever you are in the world. Chat for now. Kyron out. Bye.
The ultimate male fantasy is rather flat and boring.
Welcome, mere mortalites, to another episode of the mere mortals book reviews. I am your host, Kyrin, here on 13th of all 11th. So 13th November
(00:22):
2024.
Live as usual at 11 AM Australian Eastern Standard Time. And as you surmise surmise, this is the podcast where I outline my plans for the ultimate
misogynistic
patriarchal
fantasy society. That's right. I'm going into it. I'm telling you all what I'm actually like inside.
Okay. I won't be doing that but I will be touching upon that in this book that we do have here. The Handmaid's Tale
(00:46):
by Margaret Margaret Atwood. It's published in 1985.
It's 314
pages in length.
Took me about 6 hours of reading to get through in total.
So it's told from the point of view of this unnamed narrator.
Although we do kind of get a name of hers name,
Ofred would being Of of Fred, which is, in a reference to a male name.
(01:12):
So but largely we don't know her actual name. We don't really know much about her at all, to be honest. We just start this narration at, you know, some point in her life, this being in her mid thirties.
And this takes place in the USA where there has been an overthrown government and there is now everything is now dystopian. So it's a dystopian fictional book. Our girl here, Alfred, is 33 years old and a handmade whose only purpose is to give birth.
(01:38):
What we see in this book, there's a lot of family structures have changed. It's very totalitarian.
So everyone is watched or looking out going like, oh, like, am I gonna get in trouble?
Is a lot of violence. A lot of violence in this book, capital punishment, suicide, torture, things like that.
A lot of monotonous routine as well, because it's not a particularly exciting book. It's really told within
(02:01):
the confines of her own mind mostly because there's very little dialogue
occurring between characters as well.
So
sprinkle of religiosity as well, if you want to add that in. So what we have in this book is there's very short chapters. They they're probably like
10 pages max. And how many chapters are we getting up to here? It's like 40 something in a book of only 300
(02:26):
and something pages. So, yeah, they're they're quite short chapters.
And it's interspersed with her recollections of the past
where she is currently in this dystopian. Right at the end, we get a little future historical context,
but it's largely just told from the well, it's all told from the point of view of this of this female character. So let's jump into some of the actual themes, the questions,
(02:50):
what's going on? Why is this book interesting, important, and what can it has to teach us perhaps? And,
with a speculative fiction like this and this is certainly speculative fiction, some
fiction like this, and this is certainly speculative fiction,
some people might want to say it's,
science fiction, but there's actually not that much sciency stuff about it. It's more think more along the lines of 1984
(03:11):
and brave new world and and things like that rather than, you know, fantasy and actual sci fi.
And, with something like this, the question is, like, could could this happen? Was is this actually a a realistic scenario? Was there enough
maybe,
trendings in this world that the world could go to a place like this? And I think this will really touch upon the theme of
(03:34):
relations between men and women and how they are very distorted in this in this world that we have in in this book.
So we get a taste of the both before and after.
Before is,
it there's no time
period for this, although it's kind of speculated that it was around the 2000 period perhaps. And it certainly referenced just a lot of normal technology,
(03:59):
that way that we are used to
or that we all used to maybe, like, 20 years ago. So, you know, there was things such as telephones. There were things such as computers,
electricity, all that sort of stuff. So just think of, you know, around the 2000 period.
And there was a lot of
liberty. There's a lot of freedom for women to choose their partners.
(04:20):
So, for example, we get to know about her and her relationship between this guy called Luke, who they had an extramarital affair. Luke was married.
He has a daughter with her,
I believe a daughter
and a child with her at the very least.
You know, she
is on good terms with her mom and,
and has,
(04:41):
you know, peers among society.
Got a, you know, has has a job, best friend who's a little bit alternative, is the lesbian, you know, it's like, oh, so but it's not the biggest deal either. Her mother was more, I guess, feminist or a trailblazer, trailblazer in some respects.
It seemed just like society as we
(05:04):
currently have now. I don't think there's that much worth more examining,
because, yeah, the more interesting aspect is, okay, well, what how is this future society very different from from what we have now?
And so what we see is this this revolution occurs in the USA, becomes total totalitarian,
and and there's a gradual enforcing of stricter and stricter laws.
(05:27):
Women aren't allowed to have jobs.
There's only special privilege and whatnot privileges.
You become like an underclass if you
are a single female or if you are in a second marriage or beyond that or especially if you're probably have alternative sexual preferences, LGBTQ,
(05:48):
whatever.
That that sort of stuff is frowned upon not very good. And there's a lot of,
financial
and social
and even
restrictions of physical freedom,
I. E. You're not allowed to leave the country and and things like this.
So,
what we see is that the post revolution,
(06:08):
basically, every interaction between male and female
is about sexual reproduction.
And the other thing to add to this and, you know, it's kind of hard to say this at certain points and,
and it gets all jumbled up because the storyline goes here and there. We only get information
at very, you know, sparsely
put out through it.
(06:29):
We also learned that there has been a crisis of sexual reproduction.
A lot of women have become sterile. I can't remember if it says the men have become sterile in general as well or in large weights.
I don't believe so. But in any case, the women certainly have become sterile in general. And so there's a premium placed on
(06:52):
girls who have been proved in the past to have
to have been able to give birth and the kind of
distance between her normal life as she once remembered and then where she is now is probably about 6 to 7 years. And so, yes, we know she she gave birth previously in the old world. And now in this new world, there's a premium on her
(07:15):
cause it's like, oh, well, we know she's not sterile. So what we see, there's not
it and it's not even sexual tension in general. It is purely sexual reproduction.
And so we don't see any laughter, complaining, banter,
friends or communities
in this world really, and especially not between men and women.
Perhaps they do. But we as we're seeing this only through the lens of this main character, we'll call it off red.
(07:43):
We we don't see what perhaps life's like for some of the other characters
behind the scenes or not in a lot more detail.
So
the you know, we have these kind of ritualistic sex for births with the wife there.
That's really all about sexual reproduction. We have
her perhaps like taunting the Guardians,
(08:04):
and,
she has a sexual escapade with Nick, which, you know, it's
it's kind of taboo. But once again, it has a sexual reproduction
aspect to it. The only reason she's doing this is because
she needs to get pregnant. Otherwise,
she could be shipped off to these colonies, really bad places where, you know, you'll die very, very quickly.
(08:25):
And the there's a doctor who she sees, he offers to have sex with her as well to,
to be able to reproduce.
And then every other interaction is between these kind of
uncaring
angels slash eyes slash guardians who are men who are basically
think of them as like army type people, whether they be in the Secret Service, whether they're foot soldiers or whether they're just general,
(08:48):
you know, peasants on the street, I guess. We're not peasants
workers on the street.
It's all
very, very restrictive. And there's and it's just, you know, straight
communication back and forth if there has to be any. There largely isn't.
And I can't recall a male and a female having even a minor conversation,
(09:10):
outside of all of these conventions. It doesn't seem that, you know, her buying groceries
and talking to the grocer is probably the the, the closest that we get to that. And even that is is very,
a strange situation because she's always with a if she goes out, she's always with another handmade.
I'll get on to what handmade actually is shortly.
(09:33):
But there's always another person kind of interspersed in between these these conversations.
But this is not just her, though. Even some of the women with perhaps different privileges
or different positions,
they all seem to have a very muted,
weird relationship
between
themselves and men,
even the ones that are, you know, meant to be their their partner. So for example, the the wife of the commander
(10:00):
is a
who is the guy who's he's like the top dog. He's he's basically, you know, one of the top top men in the totalitarian state. And
and, you know, he has he has the power, he has the privileges and thing things like that. And even his wife, who is
they also have privileges of short of sorts. There's very strange relationship between them. They don't seem to communicate.
(10:22):
They don't seem to get along well.
It's yeah, very strange. We, you know, don't even talk convivial,
convivial.
That's a shit word. Hate that.
Convivial
together.
There's no scenes of a wife or a daughter or an aunt or a Martha talking with a man. No social functions or get togethers without babies or or fear. Probably the only other interaction between men and women is is fear
(10:48):
in this,
in this world. And all of this is made possible through the structure of this world. So
we see this population decline as most women
are sterile.
Everyone is dressed in very strict attire. So the handmaids. So these are the the girls who
could potentially reproduce
are in red.
(11:09):
Wives of of top commanders and of important people addressed in blue. And these are women who are
infertile. They can't give birth. We have these daughters. So these are girls who are, you know, prepubescent
or perhaps just getting towards the age of reproduction,
who are dressed in white. We have the aunts, which are these kind of strict women who help enforce the laws and teach the handmaids how how to live, what their what their duties are in this new world, because they're
(11:41):
they're simultaneously
the most prized and important people because they're the only people who can give birth.
But they are also
the almost the lowest in a certain sense because
they they have no other purpose other than to give birth. And so
no one cares about their intellect. No one cares about,
if they can work or do anything else. Like, it's purely
(12:04):
you need to just keep your body safe so that you can give birth. And that's that's all there is for you. And
we also have these Martha's. So these are the kind of the cooks, the maids, the cleaners,
who are dressed in green.
So social interactions
are limited through the threat of violence or deportation to the colonies.
(12:25):
Once still talking about the structure here, very limited means of social progress
via giving birth to a child. That's the only way you could progress in this world,
for for these handmaids.
And indoctrination
means even female to female interactions are rather subdued. There's
an over pressing,
(12:46):
overbearing,
pressure to
conform,
to watch your words, to,
you know, if someone says something, you have to respond in the correct way.
Even Handmaids aren't meant to talk together,
even though they they will go grocery shopping together, for example.
It's very emotional. Outlets
(13:08):
are very limited and limited only to
big group gatherings which can be watched, such as these salvaging where they
kind of repent
or or get to
watch
a capital punishment taking place, birthing ceremonies where
a handmaid will be giving birth
and these kind of secret meetings or parties that only men can organize. So the whole picture I've given here is of this world where
(13:34):
man sucks to be a female. Right? It's it's not a nice place. And, you know, men men get to be at the top, men get to be in the army and,
and the Secret Service. They've they've got all the privileges. They
control what women do, their reproduction,
sexual, everything about them down to communication.
(13:55):
What a fantastic world. Right? Men, we've done it. We've made it to the top.
Unfortunately, it's not as amazing as it sounds. Not that that would be amazing at all anyway.
Woman finally put in their place. Right? And men get to have all the fun.
It's not like that. It's not like that at all. And
if you believe that this is what men would want as well, I'm not sure you really know, know men either because everything in this world is
(14:23):
applies to the guys. So
we see all the men are rather strict in their in their attire as well. There's no liberty or freedom in
in those cases. So the commanders, these men at the top, they're always in suits,
the bodyguards
or the drivers, the chauffeur, things like that. They've got a very strict attire as well.
(14:45):
Obviously, people in the army and the guardians,
they're strict, you know, in military gear. The eyes, I can't remember what they're dressed in, but these are the kind of Secret Service people.
All of them, you know, no one no one we really see dressing up in in anything crazy other than,
when they
break the rules and go to a secret party where they do have things like,
(15:09):
you know, sequin shots or,
you know, crop tops or things like this. And
so so
the men,
they they get all these restrictions as well. Okay. But, you know, they they can do what they want. Right? They
they they have control of over women's bodies. They could rape them, for example,
incorrect. Rape is even is, you know,
(15:31):
even worse for the men than it is for the women.
They get killed instantly because once again, if the sacral sexual reproduction is all that's important,
it's the guys who want to make sure that
that their children are getting birth right and not some other random dude. So rape or
even
consensual sex outside of
these very strict norms,
(15:53):
not not allowed prohibited, you're gonna die for that. So okay, well, that that's not so good.
Men also have limited ability to move up the hierarchy. They could only do this fire,
being like a good warrior and and fighting overseas.
And that's about it. I'd there doesn't seem much by business, doesn't really exist from what I can tell. All the businesses
(16:16):
are, you know, they're not allowed to have individual
names to be called, you know, milk and cheese, and you go there to to get milk and cheese.
Uh-huh. So so there's, you know, you can't create a business. There's no it's not like an entrepreneurial world, certainly.
Men also have to watch their words and be careful of tattletales. Men die in wars.
The life of an average man there appears to suck as well.
(16:40):
And
because, you know, if if this is the ultimate male fantasy world, right,
you would assume that men would just be able to have sex constantly. It'd be like, oh, you know,
amazing for them. But
it seems that in this world that
it's hard to tell because you're only getting it from the this this point of view of this one female in a very unique position.
(17:05):
We don't see, like, the general. So for example, you know,
who who provides them with the cheese? There's gotta be a cheese maker. There's gotta be someone who makes the materials to be able to make cheese. So there's gotta be a whole network, a world of of interactions going on, but we don't see that. We only see it from this one very
special position. It would be
(17:27):
it would be like
a
a person, a billionaire's daughter or something
giving a
a so she would be someone who maybe would have bodyguards around her her whole life. She would go to very special schools. She would probably only interact with
people of the highest class. It would be like her writing
(17:48):
a book of of how the world is like
and
the rest of the world would kind of just be like, man, this is this is not, you know, this is not how the world actually works. You know, we don't all live in ridiculous penthouses and
snap our fingers and things get cleaned or go to the best hospitals or anything like that.
(18:08):
It would be imagine that
and also her never escaping from the confines of Beverly Hills or or something like that. So
this world is is very distorted
just from the way we see it,
which is not to say that her position or is is something,
(18:29):
to to not be
thrown away as is, I mean, it's certainly an interesting position and I'll get on to could this happen in a second. But
from the world she describes,
it's it's so strange that I
I, I struggle to understand how it could work
if every interaction was like hers.
(18:51):
And it does seem to be that she just had this very, very one special, unique
position. And then I can also, you know, if if women are not giving birth in general, then how the hell is all of this other stuff happening? How how is she getting cheese
or
or milk without
the whole network of of peons and, you know, people who are peasants compared to her.
(19:15):
I don't know. It's hard hard to say. So could this happen?
And is this sort of world realistic?
You know, it is maybe is we have seen crazy behavior before in societies around the world. If you read anything about what, you know, Stalin's
Stalin's
Soviet Russia was like,
right at the top, that was a very, very strange, weird world. And even in some of the middle sections of society,
(19:40):
it was still a very strange world. There was still a lot of just normal interactions of, you know, people farming
and going to markets and things like that. But markets were distorted
because there was price controls and fixed pricing.
And when you got right up to the top levels of the
Politi Bureau or the
whatever was before the KGB, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.
(20:05):
The that was certainly a strange world. So and
Atwood herself said that all of the things that she based in this book, all of the behaviors, all the
things were were things she had written about and had a historical example for. So
obviously, then she's just picking and choosing different elements of of what we're we've seen in the real world and putting it together in this this creation that she has put
(20:31):
the rapidity of the change within 5 to 7 years. That's pretty crazy, though. That'd hard to be hard to believe that this could actually happen,
and almost certainly would be unsustainable
and unlikely for
the several reasons.
All of this applies even to the ones at the top making the rules and controlling. So commanders
(20:52):
voluntarily making less sex less fun for themselves.
I,
I struggle to believe that, you know, if you're the one
at the top controlling things, you think you'd want to make this world,
the best it could be for you. Right. But
even their secret parties,
he has to be very careful for and it's dangerous for him to go to
(21:14):
when
he has sex with with the handmade that's being offered.
It's very ritualistic.
You know, he's not meant to derive pleasure from it.
And
it's very, very strange and weird. It's like, well, if he controls everything, why wouldn't he make it better for himself?
Have all of life's pleasures been erased? You know, it seems like a society like this would need
(21:37):
some sort of communal things
such as the church to keep people in place
or gatherings to provide some sort. It just feels like people would break really quickly if this is what the world was like in general.
Just some range thing, like how can the most valuable people be allowed to roam the streets? So
(21:58):
she's she's like she can just go wherever she wants
to a certain extent. She's not being watched in this case. You know, if she just wanted to try and make a break for it, she could.
And she interacts with men who have,
by the sounds of it never had a woman in their life.
It doesn't seem to imply that sex sex is allowed outside of trying to reproduce and so in file infertile women.
(22:26):
And I don't get the feeling that they're allowed to have sex. So there's just
1,000, 100 of 1000 of men who have never had sex before. And they see like
a young
or young ish, a fertile woman
roaming around the streets and show them and to be guarding her. But it's like,
(22:46):
I don't know that that doesn't sound right to me that some guy who's never had sex before, he'd he'd be willing to do a lot to to make that happen.
For example, you don't put young men in charge of a harem lull.
Where's all the food material coming from? Because technology seems to have stalled.
If pre production is so important, then why isn't the population in terminal decline? Why aren't they
(23:10):
doing everything they can to maximize the chances of reproduction?
Yeah. Seems seems kind of strange.
Would older Baron women really care for another's child? So when they give birth,
it's the child is then given to the wives, but, you know, it's not their baby. So are they gonna actually care for them properly? And would they would they actually want that?
(23:33):
Taking someone's child away and not killing them seems like it could backfire. That seems pretty strange.
And men are so obsessed with women and not even wary of other men. There wasn't didn't seem to be much
wariness
of the commander, for example,
worrying like there's a there's a there's another dude living in his house, and he's not worried that this
(23:55):
sex girl who's sexually reproductive,
her door is not even locked at night. She could just walk out. She did. She just walks out and goes to this other dude's room and has sex with him and has to be, like, careful and and sneaky and tiptoe. And it's like, oh, the searchlights, but
she seems to do it rather easily. I don't know. Seems,
could this world actually happen? Yes. But
(24:18):
I not not
only portions of this. I I don't think that it would go the way that this it was described in this book. So it seemed rather strange. Anyway, let's let's keep going on. Let's jump onto the author some extra details.
Margaret Atwood was born in 1939.
They're still going strong, it seems. So good for her.
(24:40):
Canadian author. She's written extensively across multiple different genres, novellas,
you know, journalistic pieces, short stories,
I think even graphic novels, stuff like that,
and was very involved with current themes and write this to reflect some of the trends that she noticed growing up in postwar Canada.
And so hence the the kind of dystopian nature of it.
(25:03):
Canada, for example, it seemed that
a lot of women and when is the workforce
to, you know, for the war efforts and things like that? And then after the war, they were getting kicked out of jobs because people wanted to return to the way it was before. Women staying in the household, men working, that sort of stuff.
And there was a bit of tension going on then. So
(25:27):
she neither describes us as feminist nor science fiction,
which makes sense to me.
And it just seems more dystopian rather than misogynistic
in nature.
This book is one of those ones where it's, you know, it seemed to be like a female
rallying cry for feminists going,
this is what would happen if men could could get what they wanted exactly. We need to fight against this sort of thing. But it's like, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't I don't know any guy who would want to live in a world like this. Like, this is a this is a messed up world, which
(25:58):
is neither beneficial for men nor women. So
I don't know. I, yeah, I don't know about that. In terms of the actual book itself, I found the pacing
really, really quite excellent. Strings you along quite nicely by only providing these little glimpses of,
info here and there. You get this little Latin thing scratched into her cupboard, and it's like, oh, what does that mean? And you find on on later,
(26:22):
you're eventually learning about why the women are fertile, infertile
due to radiation and things like that.
So you learn more about this world. She's living in this world, but you only learn about it very gradually. And I thought that was pretty good.
And
the insights into how this character must feel and what's going on through our minds. You know, she thinks about suicide sometimes,
(26:47):
but then she thinks about her daughter. She thinks about Nick,
the man who, you know, she thinks might be dead, but maybe isn't. So there's still a little bit of hope.
And we get these little snippets of this black market material. She gets to see a photo of her daughter.
She'll get like a little special privilege. She can put on some lipstick with the commander. She goes out to a party. She sees her friend who ran away. Now, there's all these little snippets of action here and there that that feel realistic
(27:15):
in this whole
world of structured life and routine.
So just the way the book itself was written was, I thought,
really well done. The the way the actual structure of of how it was presented,
which will get us onto the final summary, similar books and some recommendations.
It's an okay book. My main problem was I found it kind of boring, to be honest.
(27:40):
There's a lot of reminiscing and old times and housework.
So it wasn't exactly like a fast paced novel, even though it it kept me it kept me engaged. But
it also wasn't like, wow, keeping me.
I wasn't fascinated as well. It was almost like
the right the the writing was well done, but the the actual content,
(28:02):
not so much, perhaps.
You know, it's believable in some sense, but I also didn't find myself transported into this world, imagining it
myself there, you know, perhaps because it was from the female point of view. And so
a lot of the things she said about,
you know, how her body's feeling,
her worries
(28:23):
of,
you know, having her child lost and things like this. I just thinks that I haven't
can't in many cases experience myself.
So
perhaps that's why I had this little bit of distance from the book.
Stylistically, I found it worked well, kept me motivated enough to keep going, but, you know, just there was there were some points where I'm like, it was getting a bit tedious. I'm not sure I wanna keep going on with this. So overall, I'm gonna give The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I don't know. 4 and a half out of 10. This, you know, maybe for some people you really like this. It's firmly in the camp of dystopian classics.
(28:58):
So I mentioned some of these 1984
Brave New World Fahrenheit 451. Give those a try if if you really enjoyed this book.
I used to think I loved dystopian's
books.
What I actually found was I just really loved 1984
and dystopian books in general. I've found to be honestly a bit underwhelming in many cases that
(29:21):
they're kind of like semi interesting, but it's also
it's also just like, man, this is that takes a lot of leaps and bounds to to get to this world where they're they're describing and just doesn't seem sustainable.
So,
she also had a follow-up in 2019,
30 year 34 years later. Wow. Called the testaments if you wanted to read that as well.
(29:43):
And, yeah, that's it for today. Thank you very much for joining in. This is a value for value podcast. So,
I put all this
value up here, this book review up for you up front.
You know, I hope this to be accessible anytime, any place, anywhere for anyone free of charge, of course, as well. I do not do sponsorships nor advertising
(30:04):
nor
any sorts of influence behind the scenes of the books that I'm picking. It's pretty much only just, I'll I'll go over some point, do a
a non book review episode of of how I choose the books I choose and and where I get them from.
So,
I do all of that and,
all of that up front. And I just ask that you, return that value in some shape or form. You can do this many ways. You could give it a, you know, a share and a like and and things like that on social media,
(30:35):
joining in live. And I'll touch about that shortly. I'd love to hear your book recommendations
of things that you think I would like or perhaps even ones that maybe I should stay away from if I'm saying that I might read them,
because, I've had some very helpful recommendations
recently. I forgot to mention this, but East of Eden by,
(30:55):
John Steinbeck, the book I reviewed just prior to this. Love, love, love, love. And that was by Johnny, who's actually joining us live as well. So, thank you very much for that, Johnny. Massive appreciation. I was probably gonna get to it anyway because I really love Steinbeck, but you telling me to to read that,
what has certainly pumped it up the order. So very much appreciated.
(31:17):
And,
yeah, the the last, you can support monetarily as well. That's a PayPal link down below, which would be awesome. And I would certainly shout you out if you sent through any any money to the channel for that.
I am live here on Wednesdays, Australian Eastern Standard Time at 9 AM. I've got a couple of people in the chat. So Johnny was here. Much appreciated Johnny. Lisa s says good evening.
(31:40):
I remember one girl with whom I went to uni had this book in one of her English
English lit courses.
I was never a big fan of dystopia.
Yeah. I mean,
the problem with that is always,
I
I have a very strong opinions
on forcing kids to read certain books.
(32:02):
English is important. Learning to read is important.
But forcing them to read certain books,
I think
is
is unhelpful
and
made me fall out of love with reading
when I had to read stuff like looking for allibrandy.
What was the one with the greases and pony kid? I've forgotten given the name of that,
(32:27):
even To Kill A Mockingbird. You know, I would probably have enjoyed reading that nowadays,
but I didn't enjoy it when it's like
you have to think what is the theme of the book and what was,
you know, I'm forced to talk about
the relationship
between
the the lawyer
and his son, whereas I'd maybe be more interested in the relationship between
(32:52):
the lawyer and the accused or things like this. And so
I can see why your friend would perhaps not get into that,
because,
when I was forced to Shakespeare,
maybe I'll get to Shakespeare one day, but it's it's gonna take a long time for the trauma
of, of my
English classes in high school to
(33:13):
to go beyond me. So thank you very much for joining, Lisa and Johnny. Much appreciated.
Call out to anyone. I will be doing these live Wednesday, 9 AM
Australian. Yeah. Sorry. 11 AM. Why am I saying 9? 11 AM Australian Eastern Standard Time,
which you'll have to just do some conversions in Google. Ask us ask Google for when that is into your local time zone.
(33:35):
And I I expect to be doing that really consistently
for
the foreseeable
6 months. After that, we'll see.
Might be traveling again.
And one also does some book reviews every now and then, which he puts on a Saturday. These are not live. So,
just look out for those on the YouTube channel and on the podcast itself.
(33:57):
So this was turned into a big one. Wow. Had a lot of thoughts on it even though I didn't actually
enjoy the book that much. That's how it goes, I guess.
So thank you very much for joining me, and I really do hope you're having a fantastic day wherever you are in the world. Chat for now. Kyron out. Bye.
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