November 18, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, we explore the workings of Brian Jackson's career as a musician and an audio engineer and educator. Brian talks about his experience with the band Neurosis and his journey through the music industry, providing his insight and wisdom.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hi, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Metal
Mastermind Podcast. I am your host, Ken Candelas,
and today we have a very specialguest, his name is Brian
Jackson. Brian, why don't you say hello?
Hey, how's it going? It's good to have you on
brother. This is really a treat for me
(00:27):
because I've worked with you actually in the educational
field a long time ago, and it's been such a pleasure to actually
reconnect with you when we saw each other at AES, the Audio
Engineering Society event in theJacob Javits Center in New York.
For you guys who are listening, Audio Engineering Society is a
really, really cool place because you basically get
(00:48):
everybody who's anybody in the audio world to come into one
area. And they do things like talks,
they do things like, you know, events with manufacturers,
They'll do a whole bunch of kindof stuff and you get some cool
swag while you're at it. So it's a great place.
And Brian, you know, actually, let's start there.
(01:10):
You know, how long have you beengoing to places like AES and
stuff? Well, I moved to New York in
2002, and I think I've been to everyone here since that they
had them, other than the few years they didn't happen because
of the pandemic. Right.
Oh, wow. That's amazing.
Yeah. AES has always been kind of a
(01:30):
fun thing for me, and I'm sure it has been for you as well.
But you know, you from you are, were you originally from New
York or did you always, did you move somewhere and, you know,
live there for a long period of time?
What was your? What's your history like?
Yeah, I grew up in the Detroit area and then I moved to San
Francisco in the mid 90s. Never went to AES there.
(01:54):
I always thought about it whenever it would happen out
there but moved here in O2 afterSan Francisco became so
gentrified it wasn't worth wow living in a smaller city like
that. Wow.
And do you think the music sceneis is radically different from
those places to somewhere like New York?
Yeah, New York's kind of its ownbeast.
(02:17):
Like, you know, when you're coming from a place like Detroit
or San Francisco, you assume everything would be better here.
But this hums with its own challenges.
And because it's so big and there's so much going on here,
people from different scenes don't bump into each other as
often as in the some of the smaller cities where there's a
lot more cross pollination of people in totally different
(02:39):
music scenes. Like in San Francisco, like
everybody knew everybody. You know, the city city's only
at least back then was like 700,000 people.
The whole Bay Area is like barely larger than Brooklyn
population wise. So everyone in different scenes
knew everybody. Electronic music, punk, metal,
there was more overlap where here these things are much more
separate for the most part. Right, Yeah, I, I, I definitely
(03:02):
feel that as well. But like, I feel like New York
in, in a way, it has its own pockets, you know, So if you're,
you know, surrounded by people who are in that same, you know,
clique, if you want to call it that, it's if it's very
nurturing in those ways. But the hard part is finding
those people. Sure, it's totally.
(03:23):
Yeah, yeah, you definitely have to be here for a while.
But yeah, I'm definitely a New Yorker at this point.
Yeah, no, for sure. So that's very, very cool.
I mean, like, you know, you before you were an educator, you
were doing music for a long time.
Like, why don't you start with your your journey as a musician
(03:45):
or as an audio producer? How did that come into being?
What was that like for you growing up?
Yeah, so, I mean, I was lucky. We had music classes in, like,
elementary school and middle school.
So I did like, elementary schoolchoir.
I did, you know, band in middle school, played saxophone.
(04:08):
And then in college, I'm sorry, high school, I didn't really do
anything other than be a music fan until my senior year.
I started learning how to play bass very, very poorly.
Like, you know, figuring out three chord punk songs on a
bass. And then when I got to college I
got kind of serious about playing bass even though I was
studying sociology and philosophy, started doing
(04:31):
college radio. I had my own show for three out
of the four years I was doing radio in Kalamazoo, MI at
Western Michigan and started production there.
Weirdly, we had to make our own promo carts.
So they had a little production room with a couple two track
tape machines and some effects, a little mixer.
So it was like kind of old school tape bouncing things back
(04:54):
and forth, tape manipulation. So I kind of started learning a
little bit about that in broadcast and then dropped out
of grad school to move to California to be a musician.
And what was, I mean, you had that sort of background with
with the radio show, you know, did that propel you in
(05:16):
California to like work with bands as an audio engineer or
was that, you know, something that was a little bit more on
the side of other things? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think
the radio station experience waslike, was useful.
It was cool. You know, I was exposed to a ton
of music. I started learning a little bit
about production and, you know, you know, we had, you know, we
(05:38):
had a mixer there because he hadall the different inputs.
You know, it was still vinyl andCDs were just really starting to
take off at this time. So it's mostly vinyl, but just
like being able to understand how to mix together different
sources and watch levels. So that was really helpful.
But beyond that, I just, when I was playing in bands in
(06:01):
California, the first few bands I played in, I was trying to
play and they're just local bands, didn't really go
anywhere. I decided I didn't want to play
in bands anymore, so I sold thislittle 4 track Tascam cassette
recorder I had and bought Pro Tools in 96, which was kind of
insane or how expensive it was. And then shortly thereafter, a
(06:22):
friend, a friend of mine who wasalso out there from Michigan and
had played in a band that was onMetal Blade, was like, hey,
let's do it, let's start a band together.
And so I'd started kind of building a studio when I kind of
ended up in a band with somebodywho'd been a professional for a
while. And then that kind of took off
from there. People liked how our band
(06:43):
sounded and started asking us todo stuff for them.
So when from like you're learning Pro Tools and synths
and MIDI and all that. So we could like do our weird
rock band that did you know, rock band with synths and
electronics to like, hey, can you master my record for me?
Can you, you know, do do you know stuff like that?
(07:04):
So because it's kind of evolved organically, I guess.
Wow, that's amazing. And I mean, here I met on
Mastron, we would talk a lot about creating your own sound.
And I it's a, it's an important aspect to our ethos.
And when you tell me stuff like that, it's, it's fun because
it's, you're seeing somebody here who's like trying to
(07:26):
discover themselves in a way that ends up having adverse
effects through that, which are beneficial.
Because when you, when you startreally experimenting as as an
artist, you start exploring, youknow, parts of the unknown,
maybe things that people haven'ttried just yet, or if they have
tried, you haven't heard about it.
(07:46):
So you have your own way of doing it.
And that sort of originality is important and it becomes in a
sense, a signature. And so when people they hear
things that you've worked on, you know, and you've worked on,
you know, a couple of metal bands that are pretty notable.
And it's just in amazing to see it like grow from, you know,
(08:08):
this kid in in Detroit that wentto do a radio thing in college.
And then you go into California and you're here playing bands
and you're expanding that creativity even into technical
feel like audio, which is so cool.
So did you decide when did well?When did you decide that you
(08:28):
you, you know, you wanted to do audio?
Was that while you were in California or was that when you
moved to New York? You know, it was, it was
definitely in California. You know, originally the idea
was you get, you'll get a, get afour track to set recorder.
I outgrew that really quick. I only had that for like 6
months. So I was like, OK, and then I
(08:49):
was looking at like bigger, you know, tape machines and it was
like, God, this stuff's so expensive and it still would
just be more tracks and it wouldn't wouldn't be as
flexible. And that's right when like the
digital stuff was starting to get not insane and decent.
So, you know, I think it was like Pro Tools version 3.4.
(09:10):
I was able to run 16 tracks on my total on my, but it was like
I was able, and this was an, this was an early system that
was just, there was no DSP. So it was like, OK, I had a
couple EQ's. It was, it was, it was before
LE, but they had a, a different version before Pro Tools LE came
(09:33):
out that was basically for audiorecording and editing.
And you got a few EQ's like basic EQ's.
So it was still all outboard stuff.
So if, you know, taught me how to route stuff out and then back
in and I just got really into the whole creative process of
like the studio as a instrument.And my bandmate was really into
like Brian Eno and people that were also really into like the
(09:56):
The Beatles, where I was like the studio was the creative
process. And so I just kind of really got
into that and realized that I liked the technical side of
things. And then at a point, even more
than being a band, like at a certain point I was like, I
don't want to play in bands anymore.
I just want to do audio. I want to work on other people's
(10:18):
records or just make my own stuff in my own studio and not
have to worry about drummers, Right?
Basically, yeah. Everyone who's playing bands
knows what I'm talking about. Yeah, I and I'm the drummer.
It's what? So you're the lucky 1 you get,
you get to pick, you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to do
this band this week and I'll do this other band this week.
And you guys have to wait until I get back from tour with this
(10:40):
band, you know? But that's what happened.
My drummer was like, oh, I got to go on tour with so and so
because that's how he paid his bills.
And it's like, OK, that's we're on hold until he's done touring
with so and so. Oh wow.
Oh man, that sounds like it's a real struggle.
Not for the drummer. Though, So no, yeah.
(11:00):
And that's before getting into personality problems and, you
know, to me quitting. But that's, that's the yeah, we
didn't even talk about that. I mean the the side of audio
that you kind of excel at it's it's, it's been mostly mastery
hasn't and has it not? Recently, yeah.
Weirdly, that's where it startedfor other people, you know, in,
(11:23):
in when, when we, when I was doing those early records with
Pro Tools, you would go into a studio to like track drums and
electric bass and then bring it back to our studio, dump it into
Pro Tools, chop it up bad synths, you know, do all the
crazy electronic stuff on it. But the, our label, we were, we
(11:45):
were on a label was GSL records,kind of a West Coast like locust
chick chick chick. There's like if you look up GSL
on, on Wikipedia, they folded a few years ago and just look at
the list of bands that came out of labels and saying that kind
of, you know, went off from, from that.
He was like, Hey, can you mastermy record?
The the, the label's owner and Iwas like, OK, my bandmate had
(12:10):
seen it done. And so the two of us sat there
together and figured out how to master a record.
And then that led to other people.
I guess it's, it worked out OK, Like asking can you master these
compilations for me, for my label?
And that's where I was like, I look back through some of that
and it was like, holy shit. Some of these bands that were on
there like the first Cattle Decapitation stuff when they
(12:33):
were still like a grind core band, Acid Mothers Temple, I
mean just like crazy stuff. And someone, I didn't know what
it was at the time. I was just like, well, you know,
this guy knows good music. This stuff's cool.
So you know, I started out as really like a transfer transfer
engineer. Like I didn't really know what I
was doing with EQ and compression and limiting, but it
(12:53):
was like I had a DAT player, I had a CD burner and I would get
stacks of stuff and just transfer them all into the Pro
Tools, chop things up and then put it and make ACD.
And that's how it started. So my initial mastering stuff
was mostly like old school, liketransfer engineer, but in the
digital age. And then the band Neurosis had
(13:16):
their own label, Neurot Records,and made a side project that was
called Tribes and Neurot. And those guys I knew from the
neighborhood, and I'd been a fanboy of Neurosis for years
already at that point. And they asked us to mix and
master this experimental album that they wanted to play
simultaneously with the album Times of Grace.
(13:37):
So I mixed and mastered Grace, which was their like soundscape
album that's meant to be played simultaneously with the Albini
recorded one. Wow.
That was kind of my first one where I was that was like, OK, I
think I can do this. Like I, I can do this stuff for
other people and not just for myself.
Other than it was just like, awesome to work with them, you
(13:57):
know, spend like, you know, two weeks or a week and 1/2 or
whatever. It was just like hunched over
workstation kind of going through this kind of cool,
soundscapey, experimental album that they'd made was awesome.
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah.
And it's, that's another really interesting side of you that I
didn't really know too much about.
I mean, like, I mean, archival is a is a super important job.
(14:21):
And for those of you who are actually listening on this
podcast and thinking about like places in audio that you could
do, I think archival is going tobe one of the most important
things that we do in the future.And preserving legacies and
stuff like that and seeing them through to other formats.
You're saying that a lot now with the whole Dolby Atmos thing
(14:41):
where old records that were in stereo are being remixed,
remastered and preserved in thisnew format.
I think that's always going to be a thing.
So it's really important to understand that, you know,
mastering in many ways can also just mean restoration or just
archival. And in my, in my experience, it
(15:01):
was, it was much of that in the beginning too.
I did a lot of archival work. I was a Internet master disc.
And we would just always be constantly taking, you know, old
Dats, putting them onto CD as well.
Sometimes we had a tape and we had to roll that into ACD
because they were like, yeah, wegot to get rid of this stuff
because we just, you know, we need a downsized on the room.
(15:24):
So I was like my entire day. It was just that.
I have two like old DAT players here that I recently acquired,
like trying to get my stuff off of DAT before the tapes just
die. And that's been a nightmare.
Like, like the DAT recorders have not lasted.
Well, the tapes don't hold up. You know, it's like, wow, you
(15:46):
know, stuff, just that stuff just sitting there is just
starting to kind of stop and. It's interesting.
It's it's analog tape, but it's printed with zeros and ones.
So it's this you? Know.
Yeah, it's magnetic tape. Yeah, you know.
So you're basically like at the at the mercy of of analog tape
(16:07):
degradation. So there is a certain time
window when all of this stuff needs to get transferred or it's
going to be lost forever, you know?
Yeah. Kind of scary in, in, in, in a
sense there. So here's here's here's an
interesting question. I mean, like, what are, you
know, when it comes to things like as a mastering engineer and
(16:29):
what you, you, you listen for and you've worked with fans like
Neurosis, you'd have done CattleDecapitation and all these kinds
of things. But you know, you're listening
to this music coming from a musician standpoint, but with
the capabilities of a mastering engineer, What do you notice
that makes music special for you?
(16:51):
Like what is it that modern musicians need to focus on in
order for them to create something great?
You know, when you get to be like a kind of experienced audio
engineer, sometimes you start, sometimes it's too easy to focus
on, you know, is that mic placedright?
(17:13):
Or, you know, maybe you should maybe should use a different mic
or, you know, maybe the levels weren't great when they recorded
or I hear some noise. Like it's easy to hear the
problems with things. But I find sometimes when I'm
mastering stuff that has production problems, the song
still kind of comes through and it, you know, it still has, it
still has a, a feel. There's like you're still,
(17:35):
you're getting, you're getting what the person's trying to say.
And sometimes those are still more fun to work on than ones
that are more technically correct.
Correct. Whatever that means where there
aren't problems I'm not hearing.Totally.
Freckles and destroy, you know, distortions and like, you know,
it's gotten the point where likeI've I've, you know, gotten
mixes from engineers that artists were working with.
(17:57):
And I'm like, I think you have acabling problem somewhere in
your studio because you know, where there's noises I'm hearing
sounding me like weird, like keep like patch Bay glitchy
stuff. And they're like, what are you
talking about? And then week later they're
like, Oh yeah, the engineer looked and found what you were
talking about, you know, how didyou hear that?
So, you know, I can hear stuff that even people in the studios
miss. And I mean, that's part of a
(18:19):
mastering engineer's job. And if you're not careful, that
can kind of ruin music for you. You know, if you get you get
hung up on the things that aren't working about it
technically. But I think at the end of the
day, it's like you want people to feel something, whatever
that, whatever that is, even if it's an intellectual thing or it
doesn't have to be an obvious emotion.
(18:39):
But I think it's like you're, you're, you should focus on
seeing something with with your music, even if it's just, you
can't put into words because, right.
That's why we do music a lot of the time.
Absolutely. So, yeah, the technical stuff is
important. The production values need to
meet a certain threshold so they're not distracting from
(19:00):
from what you're trying to do. But I think sometimes people
forget with how overproduced everything is or how easy it is
to overproduce everything, that the end of the day it's still
about like somebody feeling something or or making their
minds sort of think about certain things because of your
music. And that, I think, is still the
goal. That's a that's a great way to
(19:22):
put it. And I mean, I have a question,
do you, do you prefer bands tracking at the same time or are
you a fan of just overdub sending it to other people and
tracking that way? So lately, in recent years, I've
done very few band like full band records.
(19:44):
But when I was doing that, I would say, I would say if
they're, if they're all doing atthe same time, and especially if
they're in the same room and there's just like putting go
gobos up to try to isolate things.
Depends on how it depends more on like how well that's done.
Like when that's done really well, when it's like the
musicians are really good and it's recorded really well, then
(20:06):
that's, that's, that's easier todeal with than like tons of
overdubs done over a week, you know, series of weeks in
different places. But when there's problems with
that, it's like you're really limited if if they all play at
the same time, especially if there's any bleed between mics
between musicians. For I mean, I guess it's more in
mixing, but even in mastering itstill leads to problems.
(20:30):
But I don't, I don't do that much of that stuff these days.
I'm mostly doing, even if it sounds rock oriented, it was
like still very overdubbed. You know, I mostly do electronic
records these days, but a lot ofthe electronic stuff, this could
still be someone singing and playing guitar, you know, just
(20:51):
doing. They're just doing it with
samples and libraries and thingslike that for the drums and what
have you. Do you find yourself being able
to tell whether somebody did it as a full recording with a band
in a room or it was overdone? I don't think I've been in.
I think I kind of know like I know what's happening before I
(21:13):
start working on it because I talked to them ahead of time and
figure out what how they worked on it.
And you know where, where you know, if you were recorded what
you know, what was the situation?
How was this recorded? Who mixed it?
So I kind of know already, but that panel of the panel, I was
on the AES with Kia and Mark. Sorry, guy from Berkeley.
(21:34):
I'm probably forgetting his name.
Feel bad about that, that I've met you there, Dan.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, Dan, I think it was.
We had to listen through like 16different productions to kind of
judge them and see which students kind of won that that
category. And there was a lot of them that
(21:55):
were, were somebody by themselves in a bedroom using
samples, then maybe going into astudio to track a few things.
And then there was stuff that was full, you know, nice
university recording studio, youknow, need consoles and every
mic you want. And some of that stuff I could
definitely tell. And some of it was like, you
really had to listen. You're like, oh, OK, If they
(22:16):
hadn't told me they were using sample drums, I would have
noticed, but maybe I would have to listen through.
I would have been halfway through the song before I was
like, hey, wait a SEC. You know, this doesn't sound
like, you know, at the same time, a lot of metal records, by
the time they're done being mixed, they've been replaced.
Uh, everything's been replaced and chopped up anyways, so that
(22:38):
can make it trickier, but yeah. But yeah, so I I'd say people
can get really good at that, no?There's a, there's definitely a,
a barrier of like, I think in some ways the, the, the, the gel
that happens within a studio versus not doing it in the
studio. I mean, if you're, if you're a
(22:58):
really good session musician, I think you can, you know, kind of
lay into it and feel it. But the, that I think it takes a
lot of in a sense, like a musical skill to be able to do
that. And a lot of, a lot of the time,
you know, we're seeing modern productions with locking to the
grids and all that kind of stuff.
So, you know, that's going to inherently be in time.
But is it, is it, is it gelling in a way like, you know, yeah.
(23:22):
I mean, there's a difference between some of the older type
of music that we're, we listen to how they, you know, some of
them didn't even have a click. They have to sort of rely on
each other. So they're leaning on each
other's time. And you know, in those cases,
I'm it's not to say that, you know, older music is better.
There's plenty of really good music out there.
That's now, you know, one of my favorites lately has been in
(23:44):
Ferry. I really like their stuff, but
there's a lot of this sort of debate that I see online, which
is, you know, whether or not to use a grid or to, you know,
track in the same room. And I really think it just kind
of depends on the context of where, where you're at.
I don't think there's anything wrong with tracking, you know,
on your own to try and piece together something if that's all
(24:07):
you can do. I'd rather see people make music
than not at all. So it's it's a beautiful thing
to to have it. But I do know that as, and you
of course, as an audio educator as well, there is a tendency to
in some ways be a little bit more lazy about certain things
(24:27):
and that people will definitely cut some corners in order to get
something done. And I think that does has a lot
to do with technology. But you know, in those cases,
you know, like that a lot of people will make mistakes along
the way, right. So we're going to, oh, yeah,
(24:47):
yeah. Switch this up a little bit and
let's let's actually, you know, go a little bit into something
maybe you've experienced yourself, You know, were were
there moments in your life that you made a mistake that you
learned from and that if you were to pass it on to somebody
else, what word would those be? Do you have anything you would
(25:08):
say about that? Yeah.
So I think in general, in general in music, I mean music
and audio particularly, particularly pro audio related
to music production as opposed to other places, I think that
kind of like having having unrealistic expectations about
(25:30):
things is something that, you know, I know I've had to kind of
realize, especially when I was getting started and things were
starting to go well, like expecting things like, oh, I'm
doing this. Well, that means I'm going to be
here like really soon, you know,not really realizing like, oh,
like, you know, just you're starting to do well means you're
just getting your foot in the door.
(25:52):
Like, you know, when you're starting to get any attention
and you're starting to work withpeople, you like you're just now
you're in, now you're in. And now you now you have to keep
going, you know, And then related to that, it's like being
impatient about about things. I mean, those two things are a
thing or two sides of the same coin.
So yeah, I would say it's like this combination of, you know,
(26:12):
I've done all this hard work andI'm starting to get somewhere.
Why am I not further? Why am I not doing better in my
career or my skill level or whatever that is?
And just, you know, I think thislike the idea of like
consistency and persistence and not, not not being impatient
(26:33):
with like where you're at or where you should be.
You know, actually as of yesterday, I had that.
I was taught that lesson again. I got my BMI statement
yesterday. You know, it was like a couple
100 bucks more than I expected. My statements aren't that big
these days. And I was like, well, did one of
my old songs get like, did it, did it find its way into a new
(26:54):
show or did did that show play again?
And it was, I'd started doing production music, writing
production music a couple years ago for a publisher.
It was like 3 years ago I did this album for them.
It was like, oh, nothing happened.
And the everyone said this stufftakes years sometimes, but I was
like, it's been 2 years. I haven't gotten any placements.
And sure enough in Germany, a couple of my tracks got used on
(27:17):
some German TV show and it's like, oh, maybe I should have
kept, maybe I should have kept, you know, maybe I shouldn't have
moved. Maybe I should have stayed with
that publisher a little longer. Maybe I, you know, maybe two
years. Two people said two years isn't
that long in that business. But I got kind of impatient.
It's like I'm going to do other stuff.
And it's like, oh, cool, they got, they did get me some
placements. It just takes forever for
(27:38):
international placements to showup on your statements and for
they to go through the whole international system of
royalties. And so I was like, Oh yeah, I
know this lesson like I, I've taught myself this again, you
know? That's amazing.
And I feel like for a younger audience, that's a that's
(27:59):
evidently clear to emphasize because, you know, you know,
when you're young and especiallynow where everything's so like
fast on your phone and you know,everything is like coming at
your lightning speed, you know, you, you expect, you know, in
some ways for things to just like, you know, take off like
that. But it's got to.
Happen right away, yeah. Or it's not it's.
(28:19):
Not happening and and the the con the concept of doing
something for like a decade, it does not exist because you
that's like half your life when you're like 21.
So it's totally. A year feels like a long time
when you're 21. Absolutely.
And and it's all relative, right.
So because, you know, as you yougrow older, then time becomes a
(28:42):
little bit more, you know, elusive with your memories and
all this kind of stuff. But it's sure.
Yeah. So and sometimes it just deletes
itself. But it's just, we have this
entire, you know, lifespan that as we look back then, I feel
like that becomes part of wisdomis, is patience, because we, we
become more about it. And that's something that I we,
(29:06):
we, you know, we have to always emphasize for, for our younger
audience. You know, anybody here who's,
who's starting to play guitar, if you're like 18 or you're,
you're in your early 20s, I mean, like just don't worry
about anything in regards to doing things right now.
Like you're what you're doing now is basically it's going to
take, you know, maybe probably up to five to 10 years, most
(29:28):
likely the 10, the latter for most.
Most people, yeah, for most people.
Yeah, it's, it's just, you know,some people I've I've even heard
this term quite often, which is,you know, the 10 year overnight
success, which is totally something that happens because,
you know, you have to be, you have to build something totally.
What are your thoughts on like things like virality and all
(29:52):
that kind of stuff? Do you think it's good to go
viral early in your career? Do you think it's better once
you've established something? What What are your thoughts
about that? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm
obviously I'm Gen. X.
I'm really Gen. X.
So, you know, I grew up, I was the first generation to grow up
with computers, but, you know, social media, I didn't grow up
(30:15):
with social media. So I think my, my relationship
to that is different. I guess most of my experience
with that is through, you know, students.
I have a lot of students that are, you know, a lot, especially
if they're artists that are asking me these questions all
the time. And how much energy do I put
into minute things on TikTok versus writing an album?
(30:37):
So I think I think for everyone that's a little different.
I think it depends on the kind of music you're doing and the
kind of audience you're going for.
I mean, if you're doing more popkind of stuff, regardless of
pop, I don't mean like Top 40, but more popular, popular
styles, whether it's rock or hiphop or whatever, then that's
probably more important to try to get attention on social media
(30:58):
and get a 10, get some attention.
But then you have to, you have to do something with that
outside of social media. You know, I, I don't know what
this scene is for people doing, you know, technical, extremely
technical metal on, on TikTok. I, I'm not even on there.
I don't know how important that is.
Maybe that it's a thing or, you know, people doing like really
(31:21):
aggressive electronic music that's like underground stuff.
I mean, I don't, some of those people probably don't don't care
about, about that at all, about virality at all, at least in
those kind of social media stuff.
So I think it really depends what you're doing and what your
audience is and maybe the age ofthe audience matters.
People that grew up with that, Ijust think anyone who goes viral
(31:43):
early needs to remember that's just like a cool lucky thing
that happened. And you can't bank that because
in a couple months, no one's going to remember.
A couple weeks no one's going toremember, you know?
Yeah, So you got to do, you haveto do, you have to do something
with that. You have to really, you have to
do something with it and use it in a way that's not just to get
more views or whatever, because that becomes its own trap.
(32:05):
The sure, you just start chasingyou start chasing that and
people will forget you immediately.
Once you stop, once the algorithm decides they don't
want you your stuff anymore, yeah, just forget about you.
I, I, I, I tend to think a lot about like child stars in a way,
you know, they, they're so young, they, they, they become
(32:26):
so famous early in their lives. It distorts everything else that
comes afterwards in their life, right?
So sure, I, I think about it in a similar way when it comes to
like, you know, if you started something and it immediately
goes viral, that's amazing. But it's also, in some ways it
might give you a false, you know, notion as to what the
(32:49):
value of what you're doing is, or where your value lies because
you haven't. I was talking about unrealistic
expectations. I think that's going to set you
up for unrealistic expectations.Absolutely, yeah.
Because you're just, you're justtotally like riding this hype
and you're just like, Oh my God,this is amazing.
And then in some ways, you mightnot even know why it even
happened and then how to sustainthat.
(33:11):
So it's very. And it's not, it's not
sustainable unless that's what you put all your time and energy
into. You know, I have, you know,
occasional have a student who's like, you know, they're maybe
they're talented, they're young and they're trying to get
established as an artist or whatever they're doing.
And they're like, you know, I don't want to work this crappy
(33:31):
job. Maybe I'll maybe I'll like start
doing social media to try to start getting, you know, making
some money that way to pay my bills.
And I was like, well, you know, I'm not going to say don't do
that. But that sounds, that sounds
like a a hard detour into, into taking you away from what you
(33:52):
need to be doing because you have to put all your time and
energy into that to do that. Well, absolutely.
And so it may seem like, it may seem like it's related, like,
oh, I'll do music related stuff.But it's like, you know, music
critic is not a musician. You know, it's like there's that
there's a place for for people to do that.
But that's a different decision.That's a different path.
(34:13):
So I'm not saying you can't do that, but I wouldn't recommend
it, you know? Yeah.
I, I totally am there with you now, Brian, what are, what are
you currently working on? Is there, is there anything
you're like really excited about?
You know, I know we're talking about, you know, virality and
stuff like that, but are, are there stuff that you're noticing
(34:34):
and working on that you think isreally interesting to share?
What's what's What's a day in the Life of Brian Jackson
working on stuff? Yeah, so I might.
I'm working on a lot of different things always
simultaneously, you know, I'm pretty deep in the education
space. So I'm at 343 Labs in New York
(34:56):
City. We just finished building out
our first recording studio. Amazing.
So we have a like a nice controlroom and a nice ISO booth.
And so I'm kind of the one in charge of training everyone to,
to all the instructors and all the, you know, students and, you
know, I kind of designed the equipment layout and the, the,
(35:17):
the, I didn't do the wiring, butlike what the wiring would be.
So that's just wrapping up. That's taken up a lot of my time
and which has been great. It's been fun.
I get to start teaching classes in a room that I designed now.
So in terms of the patch phase and the, the equipment and that
kind of thing. So that'll be fun.
And then I don't know, I kind ofI get random mastering projects.
(35:39):
I do that steady part time, likeI don't really advertise thought
about trying to do that. So I don't know, like that's
always fun. I get to hear music I would
often normally not listen to just hear the cool stuff people
are doing in different, different scenes.
And then I'm planning on starting to do some new solo
(36:01):
music. That's not for not that's not
designed for sync, not for goingdirectly into a publishers
library. I've been done that in like five
years, so kind of good. I kind of I thought I was done
with that, but I've been jonesing to start working on
some music for the general general population said instead
of like industry only for, you know, for sync.
(36:25):
So yeah, I'm kind of in that in that pre planning process of
like what direction I want to dowhat kind of sounds, but I know
I kind of want it to be crazy and intense.
That's that's all I know so far.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's amazing how also like goingaround it, it kind of comes full
circle in a way in your life, how you step away from something
(36:48):
for a while and it just creeps back into your life because I
don't know, it's, I guess it's apart of your nature, who you
are. You never really.
I dropped out of, I dropped out of grad school twice to do
music, you know, be be a musician and do music so you
know. Yeah.
At a certain at a certain point,when see people ask, you know, I
know it's cliche, but you know, when people ask like, why did
(37:11):
you choose this? You're like, well, I kind of, I
don't have a choice. You know, once, once you're in
it, it's like, I'm not going to say you chose me because that's,
you know, that's the cliche. But it's kind of like, I don't
feel like I have an option, like, you know, I have to do
this at some level. So.
I relate to that 100%. I've always felt that it was a
sacred duty is how I call it. And right, you know, I don't
(37:35):
know something. It's a calling, you know in that
in that first. Absolutely, yeah.
Like once, you know, once you start doing it and you get you
get kind of hooked. Like, you know, life kind of
feels a little hollow and empty without it.
It's like, you know, something'sjust missing from from life.
So, you know, that's no, that's no way to live.
(37:57):
So if you're fortunate enough tobe able to pursue what you're
passionate about, almost feel like you have to, because as
it's, you're lucky to be able tojust go, I, I feel like I have
to do this, therefore I'm going to do it, you know, so I, I
think we're pretty fortunate andI like to take advantage of the
fact that I can do these kind ofthings.
So. Yeah, and perspective's really
important about that, you know, just to always retain the idea
(38:20):
that, you know, if you're a creator, which a lot of our
people on Metal Mastermind are, they're they're creatives and
they want to have something to put out in the world.
That's a that's a blessing. You know, there's not a there's
not a lot of people in the world.
I mean, there are a lot of musicians in the world, but
there's not a lot of people who can also take that and roll with
(38:40):
it for the rest of their lives and in a meaningful way.
And so one of the one of those neat, you know, things about
being a musician or being in thecreative world to begin with is,
you know, if you're passionate about what you do, that's kind
of all there is as far as initial requirements go, you
(39:02):
know, because that's the thing, sure, you're going to keep
going. Yeah, absolutely you'll.
Learn. You'll learn the skills that you
need to learn along the way. You don't have to know
everything right now. You just have to walk that path.
So for a lot of people, you know, especially of course, our
younger people, but even sometimes in, in, in, in our
older audience, you know, it's like how to get back into
(39:24):
something. Like me, you're older.
I mean, you know, like there's, there's, yeah, we've got, we've
got a lot of older students who are getting back into guitar or
they're trying to learn to do some mixing because they have
access to the technology now. It's a lot of those kinds of
stuff, which is amazing to see because I, I notice it as a
collective whole that people just at some point, wherever it
(39:48):
is that they are in their life, they tap into this universal
need to have to create. And that's a beautiful thing.
And I, that's just part, I thinkpart of our humanity, which is
really important to retain, especially in our schools, in my
SO. For for sure.
And that's why early on I said Ifelt really lucky knowing what I
know now about what happens in public schools.
(40:08):
Like I had art class, I had music class in elementary
school, You know, like once or twice a week we'd go into the
music room, you know, in, in elementary school.
It's like friggin awesome. So.
Yeah, I mean, those those types of nurturing moments are like
what help you to discover that spark, right.
And from that point, you know, for many people, you know, it
(40:32):
completely changes their life because it starts so early on
that that shapes the majority oftheir future.
So it's. Totally.
Really, really, really interesting to see that.
And as an educator, I know you are really passionate about, you
know, portraying to students, you know, the meaning of doing
what it is that you do. So I actually am, you know,
(40:53):
curious, do you have any, maybe perhaps any last words about
what you want to leave your audience today with Metal
Mastermind with? Is there?
Is there something that is important to you that you find
it worthy to share? I mean, I about 10 years ago I
(41:14):
wrote a book that's a sound on sound presents titled Now the
music producers survival guide, chaos, Creativity and career and
independent and electronic musicrolls right off the tongue
because I have, so there is, I mentioned that is I have, I had
so many thoughts I had to write a book to get out of my head.
So like every, you know, every chapter is on a different
(41:35):
component of all this stuff. So yeah, I had to write a book
to to answer that question in a sense.
So there's a couple of the chat like whole chapters in there.
But I'd say if I had to pick, pick some stuff.
I mean, I think the passion partis super important, but also
(41:56):
like a focus and discipline and balance.
So, you know, I think you have again, that you have to have
clear expectations, you need to have goals, you need to be
persistent because that passion can get sucked away by other
things. So, you know, I'd say it's a
(42:20):
combination of all those factors, whether whether you
want to be an audio engineer or you want to be, you know, be a
musician, if you want to play inbands or you want to record
bands, it's all a hustle. It's all very competitive and
you just need to put in the workand keep doing it.
And you know, can't make a full time living doing it.
(42:41):
You figure out ways to stay in it.
Right. Oh, that's great.
I love that. You know, it balance is so huge
because, you know, in, in, in, in, in an industry like music,
it's very easy to just overwork yourself because you're trying
to make stuff happen and you forget that life just keeps
going. And yeah, you might, you might,
(43:02):
you might value other things in life that you want to also spend
time with. You know, that could be as
simple as, you know, a family, which is not very simple to
manage. So it's like some.
Yeah. I think it blows me away people
that, yeah, people that have kids and still, you know, do do
more than you have more, seem tohave more time of the day than I
(43:24):
do. Like I'm, I'm, I'm blown away
that that people are able to do that.
So people do it. But yeah, yeah.
So this is this has been a very,very wholesome conversation.
Brian, I want to thank you personally for coming on the
Metal Mastermind podcast. I had a great time speaking to
you about, you know, your history and your experience as
(43:44):
an audio engineer and a musicianinto, you know, growing into the
person that you are today. It's been a pleasure.
And for those of you who are listening to the Metal
Mastermind Podcast, know that onmetalmastermind.com, we do have
resources for the metal musician, everything from metal
guitar to bass to audio production.
And we're growing that exponentially as time goes on.
(44:07):
And a resource for the metal community.
So if you haven't checked out Metal mastermind.com, do so and
find yourself maybe a resource that works for you.
And as always on Metal Mastermind, we love to say
create your own sound. Thank you, Brian, and cheers.
Yeah, thanks for having me later, man.
Hi, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Metal
Mastermind Podcast. I am your host, Ken Candelas,
and today we have a very specialguest, his name is Brian
Jackson. Brian, why don't you say hello?
Hey, how's it going? It's good to have you on
brother. This is really a treat for me
(00:27):
because I've worked with you actually in the educational
field a long time ago, and it's been such a pleasure to actually
reconnect with you when we saw each other at AES, the Audio
Engineering Society event in theJacob Javits Center in New York.
For you guys who are listening, Audio Engineering Society is a
really, really cool place because you basically get
(00:48):
everybody who's anybody in the audio world to come into one
area. And they do things like talks,
they do things like, you know, events with manufacturers,
They'll do a whole bunch of kindof stuff and you get some cool
swag while you're at it. So it's a great place.
And Brian, you know, actually, let's start there.
(01:10):
You know, how long have you beengoing to places like AES and
stuff? Well, I moved to New York in
2002, and I think I've been to everyone here since that they
had them, other than the few years they didn't happen because
of the pandemic. Right.
Oh, wow. That's amazing.
Yeah. AES has always been kind of a
(01:30):
fun thing for me, and I'm sure it has been for you as well.
But you know, you from you are, were you originally from New
York or did you always, did you move somewhere and, you know,
live there for a long period of time?
What was your? What's your history like?
Yeah, I grew up in the Detroit area and then I moved to San
Francisco in the mid 90s. Never went to AES there.
(01:54):
I always thought about it whenever it would happen out
there but moved here in O2 afterSan Francisco became so
gentrified it wasn't worth wow living in a smaller city like
that. Wow.
And do you think the music sceneis is radically different from
those places to somewhere like New York?
Yeah, New York's kind of its ownbeast.
(02:17):
Like, you know, when you're coming from a place like Detroit
or San Francisco, you assume everything would be better here.
But this hums with its own challenges.
And because it's so big and there's so much going on here,
people from different scenes don't bump into each other as
often as in the some of the smaller cities where there's a
lot more cross pollination of people in totally different
(02:39):
music scenes. Like in San Francisco, like
everybody knew everybody. You know, the city city's only
at least back then was like 700,000 people.
The whole Bay Area is like barely larger than Brooklyn
population wise. So everyone in different scenes
knew everybody. Electronic music, punk, metal,
there was more overlap where here these things are much more
separate for the most part. Right, Yeah, I, I, I definitely
(03:02):
feel that as well. But like, I feel like New York
in, in a way, it has its own pockets, you know, So if you're,
you know, surrounded by people who are in that same, you know,
clique, if you want to call it that, it's if it's very
nurturing in those ways. But the hard part is finding
those people. Sure, it's totally.
(03:23):
Yeah, yeah, you definitely have to be here for a while.
But yeah, I'm definitely a New Yorker at this point.
Yeah, no, for sure. So that's very, very cool.
I mean, like, you know, you before you were an educator, you
were doing music for a long time.
Like, why don't you start with your your journey as a musician
(03:45):
or as an audio producer? How did that come into being?
What was that like for you growing up?
Yeah, so, I mean, I was lucky. We had music classes in, like,
elementary school and middle school.
So I did like, elementary schoolchoir.
I did, you know, band in middle school, played saxophone.
(04:08):
And then in college, I'm sorry, high school, I didn't really do
anything other than be a music fan until my senior year.
I started learning how to play bass very, very poorly.
Like, you know, figuring out three chord punk songs on a
bass. And then when I got to college I
got kind of serious about playing bass even though I was
studying sociology and philosophy, started doing
(04:31):
college radio. I had my own show for three out
of the four years I was doing radio in Kalamazoo, MI at
Western Michigan and started production there.
Weirdly, we had to make our own promo carts.
So they had a little production room with a couple two track
tape machines and some effects, a little mixer.
So it was like kind of old school tape bouncing things back
(04:54):
and forth, tape manipulation. So I kind of started learning a
little bit about that in broadcast and then dropped out
of grad school to move to California to be a musician.
And what was, I mean, you had that sort of background with
with the radio show, you know, did that propel you in
(05:16):
California to like work with bands as an audio engineer or
was that, you know, something that was a little bit more on
the side of other things? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think
the radio station experience waslike, was useful.
It was cool. You know, I was exposed to a ton
of music. I started learning a little bit
about production and, you know, you know, we had, you know, we
(05:38):
had a mixer there because he hadall the different inputs.
You know, it was still vinyl andCDs were just really starting to
take off at this time. So it's mostly vinyl, but just
like being able to understand how to mix together different
sources and watch levels. So that was really helpful.
But beyond that, I just, when I was playing in bands in
(06:01):
California, the first few bands I played in, I was trying to
play and they're just local bands, didn't really go
anywhere. I decided I didn't want to play
in bands anymore, so I sold thislittle 4 track Tascam cassette
recorder I had and bought Pro Tools in 96, which was kind of
insane or how expensive it was. And then shortly thereafter, a
(06:22):
friend, a friend of mine who wasalso out there from Michigan and
had played in a band that was onMetal Blade, was like, hey,
let's do it, let's start a band together.
And so I'd started kind of building a studio when I kind of
ended up in a band with somebodywho'd been a professional for a
while. And then that kind of took off
from there. People liked how our band
(06:43):
sounded and started asking us todo stuff for them.
So when from like you're learning Pro Tools and synths
and MIDI and all that. So we could like do our weird
rock band that did you know, rock band with synths and
electronics to like, hey, can you master my record for me?
Can you, you know, do do you know stuff like that?
(07:04):
So because it's kind of evolved organically, I guess.
Wow, that's amazing. And I mean, here I met on
Mastron, we would talk a lot about creating your own sound.
And I it's a, it's an important aspect to our ethos.
And when you tell me stuff like that, it's, it's fun because
it's, you're seeing somebody here who's like trying to
(07:26):
discover themselves in a way that ends up having adverse
effects through that, which are beneficial.
Because when you, when you startreally experimenting as as an
artist, you start exploring, youknow, parts of the unknown,
maybe things that people haven'ttried just yet, or if they have
tried, you haven't heard about it.
(07:46):
So you have your own way of doing it.
And that sort of originality is important and it becomes in a
sense, a signature. And so when people they hear
things that you've worked on, you know, and you've worked on,
you know, a couple of metal bands that are pretty notable.
And it's just in amazing to see it like grow from, you know,
(08:08):
this kid in in Detroit that wentto do a radio thing in college.
And then you go into California and you're here playing bands
and you're expanding that creativity even into technical
feel like audio, which is so cool.
So did you decide when did well?When did you decide that you
(08:28):
you, you know, you wanted to do audio?
Was that while you were in California or was that when you
moved to New York? You know, it was, it was
definitely in California. You know, originally the idea
was you get, you'll get a, get afour track to set recorder.
I outgrew that really quick. I only had that for like 6
months. So I was like, OK, and then I
(08:49):
was looking at like bigger, you know, tape machines and it was
like, God, this stuff's so expensive and it still would
just be more tracks and it wouldn't wouldn't be as
flexible. And that's right when like the
digital stuff was starting to get not insane and decent.
So, you know, I think it was like Pro Tools version 3.4.
(09:10):
I was able to run 16 tracks on my total on my, but it was like
I was able, and this was an, this was an early system that
was just, there was no DSP. So it was like, OK, I had a
couple EQ's. It was, it was, it was before
LE, but they had a, a different version before Pro Tools LE came
(09:33):
out that was basically for audiorecording and editing.
And you got a few EQ's like basic EQ's.
So it was still all outboard stuff.
So if, you know, taught me how to route stuff out and then back
in and I just got really into the whole creative process of
like the studio as a instrument.And my bandmate was really into
like Brian Eno and people that were also really into like the
(09:56):
The Beatles, where I was like the studio was the creative
process. And so I just kind of really got
into that and realized that I liked the technical side of
things. And then at a point, even more
than being a band, like at a certain point I was like, I
don't want to play in bands anymore.
I just want to do audio. I want to work on other people's
(10:18):
records or just make my own stuff in my own studio and not
have to worry about drummers, Right?
Basically, yeah. Everyone who's playing bands
knows what I'm talking about. Yeah, I and I'm the drummer.
It's what? So you're the lucky 1 you get,
you get to pick, you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to do
this band this week and I'll do this other band this week.
And you guys have to wait until I get back from tour with this
(10:40):
band, you know? But that's what happened.
My drummer was like, oh, I got to go on tour with so and so
because that's how he paid his bills.
And it's like, OK, that's we're on hold until he's done touring
with so and so. Oh wow.
Oh man, that sounds like it's a real struggle.
Not for the drummer. Though, So no, yeah.
(11:00):
And that's before getting into personality problems and, you
know, to me quitting. But that's, that's the yeah, we
didn't even talk about that. I mean the the side of audio
that you kind of excel at it's it's, it's been mostly mastery
hasn't and has it not? Recently, yeah.
Weirdly, that's where it startedfor other people, you know, in,
(11:23):
in when, when we, when I was doing those early records with
Pro Tools, you would go into a studio to like track drums and
electric bass and then bring it back to our studio, dump it into
Pro Tools, chop it up bad synths, you know, do all the
crazy electronic stuff on it. But the, our label, we were, we
(11:45):
were on a label was GSL records,kind of a West Coast like locust
chick chick chick. There's like if you look up GSL
on, on Wikipedia, they folded a few years ago and just look at
the list of bands that came out of labels and saying that kind
of, you know, went off from, from that.
He was like, Hey, can you mastermy record?
The the, the label's owner and Iwas like, OK, my bandmate had
(12:10):
seen it done. And so the two of us sat there
together and figured out how to master a record.
And then that led to other people.
I guess it's, it worked out OK, Like asking can you master these
compilations for me, for my label?
And that's where I was like, I look back through some of that
and it was like, holy shit. Some of these bands that were on
there like the first Cattle Decapitation stuff when they
(12:33):
were still like a grind core band, Acid Mothers Temple, I
mean just like crazy stuff. And someone, I didn't know what
it was at the time. I was just like, well, you know,
this guy knows good music. This stuff's cool.
So you know, I started out as really like a transfer transfer
engineer. Like I didn't really know what I
was doing with EQ and compression and limiting, but it
(12:53):
was like I had a DAT player, I had a CD burner and I would get
stacks of stuff and just transfer them all into the Pro
Tools, chop things up and then put it and make ACD.
And that's how it started. So my initial mastering stuff
was mostly like old school, liketransfer engineer, but in the
digital age. And then the band Neurosis had
(13:16):
their own label, Neurot Records,and made a side project that was
called Tribes and Neurot. And those guys I knew from the
neighborhood, and I'd been a fanboy of Neurosis for years
already at that point. And they asked us to mix and
master this experimental album that they wanted to play
simultaneously with the album Times of Grace.
(13:37):
So I mixed and mastered Grace, which was their like soundscape
album that's meant to be played simultaneously with the Albini
recorded one. Wow.
That was kind of my first one where I was that was like, OK, I
think I can do this. Like I, I can do this stuff for
other people and not just for myself.
Other than it was just like, awesome to work with them, you
(13:57):
know, spend like, you know, two weeks or a week and 1/2 or
whatever. It was just like hunched over
workstation kind of going through this kind of cool,
soundscapey, experimental album that they'd made was awesome.
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah.
And it's, that's another really interesting side of you that I
didn't really know too much about.
I mean, like, I mean, archival is a is a super important job.
(14:21):
And for those of you who are actually listening on this
podcast and thinking about like places in audio that you could
do, I think archival is going tobe one of the most important
things that we do in the future.And preserving legacies and
stuff like that and seeing them through to other formats.
You're saying that a lot now with the whole Dolby Atmos thing
(14:41):
where old records that were in stereo are being remixed,
remastered and preserved in thisnew format.
I think that's always going to be a thing.
So it's really important to understand that, you know,
mastering in many ways can also just mean restoration or just
archival. And in my, in my experience, it
(15:01):
was, it was much of that in the beginning too.
I did a lot of archival work. I was a Internet master disc.
And we would just always be constantly taking, you know, old
Dats, putting them onto CD as well.
Sometimes we had a tape and we had to roll that into ACD
because they were like, yeah, wegot to get rid of this stuff
because we just, you know, we need a downsized on the room.
(15:24):
So I was like my entire day. It was just that.
I have two like old DAT players here that I recently acquired,
like trying to get my stuff off of DAT before the tapes just
die. And that's been a nightmare.
Like, like the DAT recorders have not lasted.
Well, the tapes don't hold up. You know, it's like, wow, you
(15:46):
know, stuff, just that stuff just sitting there is just
starting to kind of stop and. It's interesting.
It's it's analog tape, but it's printed with zeros and ones.
So it's this you? Know.
Yeah, it's magnetic tape. Yeah, you know.
So you're basically like at the at the mercy of of analog tape
(16:07):
degradation. So there is a certain time
window when all of this stuff needs to get transferred or it's
going to be lost forever, you know?
Yeah. Kind of scary in, in, in, in a
sense there. So here's here's here's an
interesting question. I mean, like, what are, you
know, when it comes to things like as a mastering engineer and
(16:29):
what you, you, you listen for and you've worked with fans like
Neurosis, you'd have done CattleDecapitation and all these kinds
of things. But you know, you're listening
to this music coming from a musician standpoint, but with
the capabilities of a mastering engineer, What do you notice
that makes music special for you?
(16:51):
Like what is it that modern musicians need to focus on in
order for them to create something great?
You know, when you get to be like a kind of experienced audio
engineer, sometimes you start, sometimes it's too easy to focus
on, you know, is that mic placedright?
(17:13):
Or, you know, maybe you should maybe should use a different mic
or, you know, maybe the levels weren't great when they recorded
or I hear some noise. Like it's easy to hear the
problems with things. But I find sometimes when I'm
mastering stuff that has production problems, the song
still kind of comes through and it, you know, it still has, it
still has a, a feel. There's like you're still,
(17:35):
you're getting, you're getting what the person's trying to say.
And sometimes those are still more fun to work on than ones
that are more technically correct.
Correct. Whatever that means where there
aren't problems I'm not hearing.Totally.
Freckles and destroy, you know, distortions and like, you know,
it's gotten the point where likeI've I've, you know, gotten
mixes from engineers that artists were working with.
(17:57):
And I'm like, I think you have acabling problem somewhere in
your studio because you know, where there's noises I'm hearing
sounding me like weird, like keep like patch Bay glitchy
stuff. And they're like, what are you
talking about? And then week later they're
like, Oh yeah, the engineer looked and found what you were
talking about, you know, how didyou hear that?
So, you know, I can hear stuff that even people in the studios
miss. And I mean, that's part of a
(18:19):
mastering engineer's job. And if you're not careful, that
can kind of ruin music for you. You know, if you get you get
hung up on the things that aren't working about it
technically. But I think at the end of the
day, it's like you want people to feel something, whatever
that, whatever that is, even if it's an intellectual thing or it
doesn't have to be an obvious emotion.
(18:39):
But I think it's like you're, you're, you should focus on
seeing something with with your music, even if it's just, you
can't put into words because, right.
That's why we do music a lot of the time.
Absolutely. So, yeah, the technical stuff is
important. The production values need to
meet a certain threshold so they're not distracting from
(19:00):
from what you're trying to do. But I think sometimes people
forget with how overproduced everything is or how easy it is
to overproduce everything, that the end of the day it's still
about like somebody feeling something or or making their
minds sort of think about certain things because of your
music. And that, I think, is still the
goal. That's a that's a great way to
(19:22):
put it. And I mean, I have a question,
do you, do you prefer bands tracking at the same time or are
you a fan of just overdub sending it to other people and
tracking that way? So lately, in recent years, I've
done very few band like full band records.
(19:44):
But when I was doing that, I would say, I would say if
they're, if they're all doing atthe same time, and especially if
they're in the same room and there's just like putting go
gobos up to try to isolate things.
Depends on how it depends more on like how well that's done.
Like when that's done really well, when it's like the
musicians are really good and it's recorded really well, then
(20:06):
that's, that's, that's easier todeal with than like tons of
overdubs done over a week, you know, series of weeks in
different places. But when there's problems with
that, it's like you're really limited if if they all play at
the same time, especially if there's any bleed between mics
between musicians. For I mean, I guess it's more in
mixing, but even in mastering itstill leads to problems.
(20:30):
But I don't, I don't do that much of that stuff these days.
I'm mostly doing, even if it sounds rock oriented, it was
like still very overdubbed. You know, I mostly do electronic
records these days, but a lot ofthe electronic stuff, this could
still be someone singing and playing guitar, you know, just
(20:51):
doing. They're just doing it with
samples and libraries and thingslike that for the drums and what
have you. Do you find yourself being able
to tell whether somebody did it as a full recording with a band
in a room or it was overdone? I don't think I've been in.
I think I kind of know like I know what's happening before I
(21:13):
start working on it because I talked to them ahead of time and
figure out what how they worked on it.
And you know where, where you know, if you were recorded what
you know, what was the situation?
How was this recorded? Who mixed it?
So I kind of know already, but that panel of the panel, I was
on the AES with Kia and Mark. Sorry, guy from Berkeley.
(21:34):
I'm probably forgetting his name.
Feel bad about that, that I've met you there, Dan.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, Dan, I think it was.
We had to listen through like 16different productions to kind of
judge them and see which students kind of won that that
category. And there was a lot of them that
(21:55):
were, were somebody by themselves in a bedroom using
samples, then maybe going into astudio to track a few things.
And then there was stuff that was full, you know, nice
university recording studio, youknow, need consoles and every
mic you want. And some of that stuff I could
definitely tell. And some of it was like, you
really had to listen. You're like, oh, OK, If they
(22:16):
hadn't told me they were using sample drums, I would have
noticed, but maybe I would have to listen through.
I would have been halfway through the song before I was
like, hey, wait a SEC. You know, this doesn't sound
like, you know, at the same time, a lot of metal records, by
the time they're done being mixed, they've been replaced.
Uh, everything's been replaced and chopped up anyways, so that
(22:38):
can make it trickier, but yeah. But yeah, so I I'd say people
can get really good at that, no?There's a, there's definitely a,
a barrier of like, I think in some ways the, the, the, the gel
that happens within a studio versus not doing it in the
studio. I mean, if you're, if you're a
(22:58):
really good session musician, I think you can, you know, kind of
lay into it and feel it. But the, that I think it takes a
lot of in a sense, like a musical skill to be able to do
that. And a lot of, a lot of the time,
you know, we're seeing modern productions with locking to the
grids and all that kind of stuff.
So, you know, that's going to inherently be in time.
But is it, is it, is it gelling in a way like, you know, yeah.
(23:22):
I mean, there's a difference between some of the older type
of music that we're, we listen to how they, you know, some of
them didn't even have a click. They have to sort of rely on
each other. So they're leaning on each
other's time. And you know, in those cases,
I'm it's not to say that, you know, older music is better.
There's plenty of really good music out there.
That's now, you know, one of my favorites lately has been in
(23:44):
Ferry. I really like their stuff, but
there's a lot of this sort of debate that I see online, which
is, you know, whether or not to use a grid or to, you know,
track in the same room. And I really think it just kind
of depends on the context of where, where you're at.
I don't think there's anything wrong with tracking, you know,
on your own to try and piece together something if that's all
(24:07):
you can do. I'd rather see people make music
than not at all. So it's it's a beautiful thing
to to have it. But I do know that as, and you
of course, as an audio educator as well, there is a tendency to
in some ways be a little bit more lazy about certain things
(24:27):
and that people will definitely cut some corners in order to get
something done. And I think that does has a lot
to do with technology. But you know, in those cases,
you know, like that a lot of people will make mistakes along
the way, right. So we're going to, oh, yeah,
(24:47):
yeah. Switch this up a little bit and
let's let's actually, you know, go a little bit into something
maybe you've experienced yourself, You know, were were
there moments in your life that you made a mistake that you
learned from and that if you were to pass it on to somebody
else, what word would those be? Do you have anything you would
(25:08):
say about that? Yeah.
So I think in general, in general in music, I mean music
and audio particularly, particularly pro audio related
to music production as opposed to other places, I think that
kind of like having having unrealistic expectations about
(25:30):
things is something that, you know, I know I've had to kind of
realize, especially when I was getting started and things were
starting to go well, like expecting things like, oh, I'm
doing this. Well, that means I'm going to be
here like really soon, you know,not really realizing like, oh,
like, you know, just you're starting to do well means you're
just getting your foot in the door.
(25:52):
Like, you know, when you're starting to get any attention
and you're starting to work withpeople, you like you're just now
you're in, now you're in. And now you now you have to keep
going, you know, And then related to that, it's like being
impatient about about things. I mean, those two things are a
thing or two sides of the same coin.
So yeah, I would say it's like this combination of, you know,
(26:12):
I've done all this hard work andI'm starting to get somewhere.
Why am I not further? Why am I not doing better in my
career or my skill level or whatever that is?
And just, you know, I think thislike the idea of like
consistency and persistence and not, not not being impatient
(26:33):
with like where you're at or where you should be.
You know, actually as of yesterday, I had that.
I was taught that lesson again. I got my BMI statement
yesterday. You know, it was like a couple
100 bucks more than I expected. My statements aren't that big
these days. And I was like, well, did one of
my old songs get like, did it, did it find its way into a new
(26:54):
show or did did that show play again?
And it was, I'd started doing production music, writing
production music a couple years ago for a publisher.
It was like 3 years ago I did this album for them.
It was like, oh, nothing happened.
And the everyone said this stufftakes years sometimes, but I was
like, it's been 2 years. I haven't gotten any placements.
And sure enough in Germany, a couple of my tracks got used on
(27:17):
some German TV show and it's like, oh, maybe I should have
kept, maybe I should have kept, you know, maybe I shouldn't have
moved. Maybe I should have stayed with
that publisher a little longer. Maybe I, you know, maybe two
years. Two people said two years isn't
that long in that business. But I got kind of impatient.
It's like I'm going to do other stuff.
And it's like, oh, cool, they got, they did get me some
placements. It just takes forever for
(27:38):
international placements to showup on your statements and for
they to go through the whole international system of
royalties. And so I was like, Oh yeah, I
know this lesson like I, I've taught myself this again, you
know? That's amazing.
And I feel like for a younger audience, that's a that's
(27:59):
evidently clear to emphasize because, you know, you know,
when you're young and especiallynow where everything's so like
fast on your phone and you know,everything is like coming at
your lightning speed, you know, you, you expect, you know, in
some ways for things to just like, you know, take off like
that. But it's got to.
Happen right away, yeah. Or it's not it's.
(28:19):
Not happening and and the the con the concept of doing
something for like a decade, it does not exist because you
that's like half your life when you're like 21.
So it's totally. A year feels like a long time
when you're 21. Absolutely.
And and it's all relative, right.
So because, you know, as you yougrow older, then time becomes a
(28:42):
little bit more, you know, elusive with your memories and
all this kind of stuff. But it's sure.
Yeah. So and sometimes it just deletes
itself. But it's just, we have this
entire, you know, lifespan that as we look back then, I feel
like that becomes part of wisdomis, is patience, because we, we
become more about it. And that's something that I we,
(29:06):
we, you know, we have to always emphasize for, for our younger
audience. You know, anybody here who's,
who's starting to play guitar, if you're like 18 or you're,
you're in your early 20s, I mean, like just don't worry
about anything in regards to doing things right now.
Like you're what you're doing now is basically it's going to
take, you know, maybe probably up to five to 10 years, most
(29:28):
likely the 10, the latter for most.
Most people, yeah, for most people.
Yeah, it's, it's just, you know,some people I've I've even heard
this term quite often, which is,you know, the 10 year overnight
success, which is totally something that happens because,
you know, you have to be, you have to build something totally.
What are your thoughts on like things like virality and all
(29:52):
that kind of stuff? Do you think it's good to go
viral early in your career? Do you think it's better once
you've established something? What What are your thoughts
about that? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm
obviously I'm Gen. X.
I'm really Gen. X.
So, you know, I grew up, I was the first generation to grow up
with computers, but, you know, social media, I didn't grow up
(30:15):
with social media. So I think my, my relationship
to that is different. I guess most of my experience
with that is through, you know, students.
I have a lot of students that are, you know, a lot, especially
if they're artists that are asking me these questions all
the time. And how much energy do I put
into minute things on TikTok versus writing an album?
(30:37):
So I think I think for everyone that's a little different.
I think it depends on the kind of music you're doing and the
kind of audience you're going for.
I mean, if you're doing more popkind of stuff, regardless of
pop, I don't mean like Top 40, but more popular, popular
styles, whether it's rock or hiphop or whatever, then that's
probably more important to try to get attention on social media
(30:58):
and get a 10, get some attention.
But then you have to, you have to do something with that
outside of social media. You know, I, I don't know what
this scene is for people doing, you know, technical, extremely
technical metal on, on TikTok. I, I'm not even on there.
I don't know how important that is.
Maybe that it's a thing or, you know, people doing like really
(31:21):
aggressive electronic music that's like underground stuff.
I mean, I don't, some of those people probably don't don't care
about, about that at all, about virality at all, at least in
those kind of social media stuff.
So I think it really depends what you're doing and what your
audience is and maybe the age ofthe audience matters.
People that grew up with that, Ijust think anyone who goes viral
(31:43):
early needs to remember that's just like a cool lucky thing
that happened. And you can't bank that because
in a couple months, no one's going to remember.
A couple weeks no one's going toremember, you know?
Yeah, So you got to do, you haveto do, you have to do something
with that. You have to really, you have to
do something with it and use it in a way that's not just to get
more views or whatever, because that becomes its own trap.
(32:05):
The sure, you just start chasingyou start chasing that and
people will forget you immediately.
Once you stop, once the algorithm decides they don't
want you your stuff anymore, yeah, just forget about you.
I, I, I, I tend to think a lot about like child stars in a way,
you know, they, they're so young, they, they, they become
(32:26):
so famous early in their lives. It distorts everything else that
comes afterwards in their life, right?
So sure, I, I think about it in a similar way when it comes to
like, you know, if you started something and it immediately
goes viral, that's amazing. But it's also, in some ways it
might give you a false, you know, notion as to what the
(32:49):
value of what you're doing is, or where your value lies because
you haven't. I was talking about unrealistic
expectations. I think that's going to set you
up for unrealistic expectations.Absolutely, yeah.
Because you're just, you're justtotally like riding this hype
and you're just like, Oh my God,this is amazing.
And then in some ways, you mightnot even know why it even
happened and then how to sustainthat.
(33:11):
So it's very. And it's not, it's not
sustainable unless that's what you put all your time and energy
into. You know, I have, you know,
occasional have a student who's like, you know, they're maybe
they're talented, they're young and they're trying to get
established as an artist or whatever they're doing.
And they're like, you know, I don't want to work this crappy
(33:31):
job. Maybe I'll maybe I'll like start
doing social media to try to start getting, you know, making
some money that way to pay my bills.
And I was like, well, you know, I'm not going to say don't do
that. But that sounds, that sounds
like a a hard detour into, into taking you away from what you
(33:52):
need to be doing because you have to put all your time and
energy into that to do that. Well, absolutely.
And so it may seem like, it may seem like it's related, like,
oh, I'll do music related stuff.But it's like, you know, music
critic is not a musician. You know, it's like there's that
there's a place for for people to do that.
But that's a different decision.That's a different path.
(34:13):
So I'm not saying you can't do that, but I wouldn't recommend
it, you know? Yeah.
I, I totally am there with you now, Brian, what are, what are
you currently working on? Is there, is there anything
you're like really excited about?
You know, I know we're talking about, you know, virality and
stuff like that, but are, are there stuff that you're noticing
(34:34):
and working on that you think isreally interesting to share?
What's what's What's a day in the Life of Brian Jackson
working on stuff? Yeah, so I might.
I'm working on a lot of different things always
simultaneously, you know, I'm pretty deep in the education
space. So I'm at 343 Labs in New York
(34:56):
City. We just finished building out
our first recording studio. Amazing.
So we have a like a nice controlroom and a nice ISO booth.
And so I'm kind of the one in charge of training everyone to,
to all the instructors and all the, you know, students and, you
know, I kind of designed the equipment layout and the, the,
(35:17):
the, I didn't do the wiring, butlike what the wiring would be.
So that's just wrapping up. That's taken up a lot of my time
and which has been great. It's been fun.
I get to start teaching classes in a room that I designed now.
So in terms of the patch phase and the, the equipment and that
kind of thing. So that'll be fun.
And then I don't know, I kind ofI get random mastering projects.
(35:39):
I do that steady part time, likeI don't really advertise thought
about trying to do that. So I don't know, like that's
always fun. I get to hear music I would
often normally not listen to just hear the cool stuff people
are doing in different, different scenes.
And then I'm planning on starting to do some new solo
(36:01):
music. That's not for not that's not
designed for sync, not for goingdirectly into a publishers
library. I've been done that in like five
years, so kind of good. I kind of I thought I was done
with that, but I've been jonesing to start working on
some music for the general general population said instead
of like industry only for, you know, for sync.
(36:25):
So yeah, I'm kind of in that in that pre planning process of
like what direction I want to dowhat kind of sounds, but I know
I kind of want it to be crazy and intense.
That's that's all I know so far.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's amazing how also like goingaround it, it kind of comes full
circle in a way in your life, how you step away from something
(36:48):
for a while and it just creeps back into your life because I
don't know, it's, I guess it's apart of your nature, who you
are. You never really.
I dropped out of, I dropped out of grad school twice to do
music, you know, be be a musician and do music so you
know. Yeah.
At a certain at a certain point,when see people ask, you know, I
know it's cliche, but you know, when people ask like, why did
(37:11):
you choose this? You're like, well, I kind of, I
don't have a choice. You know, once, once you're in
it, it's like, I'm not going to say you chose me because that's,
you know, that's the cliche. But it's kind of like, I don't
feel like I have an option, like, you know, I have to do
this at some level. So.
I relate to that 100%. I've always felt that it was a
sacred duty is how I call it. And right, you know, I don't
(37:35):
know something. It's a calling, you know in that
in that first. Absolutely, yeah.
Like once, you know, once you start doing it and you get you
get kind of hooked. Like, you know, life kind of
feels a little hollow and empty without it.
It's like, you know, something'sjust missing from from life.
So, you know, that's no, that's no way to live.
(37:57):
So if you're fortunate enough tobe able to pursue what you're
passionate about, almost feel like you have to, because as
it's, you're lucky to be able tojust go, I, I feel like I have
to do this, therefore I'm going to do it, you know, so I, I
think we're pretty fortunate andI like to take advantage of the
fact that I can do these kind ofthings.
So. Yeah, and perspective's really
important about that, you know, just to always retain the idea
(38:20):
that, you know, if you're a creator, which a lot of our
people on Metal Mastermind are, they're they're creatives and
they want to have something to put out in the world.
That's a that's a blessing. You know, there's not a there's
not a lot of people in the world.
I mean, there are a lot of musicians in the world, but
there's not a lot of people who can also take that and roll with
(38:40):
it for the rest of their lives and in a meaningful way.
And so one of the one of those neat, you know, things about
being a musician or being in thecreative world to begin with is,
you know, if you're passionate about what you do, that's kind
of all there is as far as initial requirements go, you
(39:02):
know, because that's the thing, sure, you're going to keep
going. Yeah, absolutely you'll.
Learn. You'll learn the skills that you
need to learn along the way. You don't have to know
everything right now. You just have to walk that path.
So for a lot of people, you know, especially of course, our
younger people, but even sometimes in, in, in, in our
older audience, you know, it's like how to get back into
(39:24):
something. Like me, you're older.
I mean, you know, like there's, there's, yeah, we've got, we've
got a lot of older students who are getting back into guitar or
they're trying to learn to do some mixing because they have
access to the technology now. It's a lot of those kinds of
stuff, which is amazing to see because I, I notice it as a
collective whole that people just at some point, wherever it
(39:48):
is that they are in their life, they tap into this universal
need to have to create. And that's a beautiful thing.
And I, that's just part, I thinkpart of our humanity, which is
really important to retain, especially in our schools, in my
SO. For for sure.
And that's why early on I said Ifelt really lucky knowing what I
know now about what happens in public schools.
(40:08):
Like I had art class, I had music class in elementary
school, You know, like once or twice a week we'd go into the
music room, you know, in, in elementary school.
It's like friggin awesome. So.
Yeah, I mean, those those types of nurturing moments are like
what help you to discover that spark, right.
And from that point, you know, for many people, you know, it
(40:32):
completely changes their life because it starts so early on
that that shapes the majority oftheir future.
So it's. Totally.
Really, really, really interesting to see that.
And as an educator, I know you are really passionate about, you
know, portraying to students, you know, the meaning of doing
what it is that you do. So I actually am, you know,
(40:53):
curious, do you have any, maybe perhaps any last words about
what you want to leave your audience today with Metal
Mastermind with? Is there?
Is there something that is important to you that you find
it worthy to share? I mean, I about 10 years ago I
(41:14):
wrote a book that's a sound on sound presents titled Now the
music producers survival guide, chaos, Creativity and career and
independent and electronic musicrolls right off the tongue
because I have, so there is, I mentioned that is I have, I had
so many thoughts I had to write a book to get out of my head.
So like every, you know, every chapter is on a different
(41:35):
component of all this stuff. So yeah, I had to write a book
to to answer that question in a sense.
So there's a couple of the chat like whole chapters in there.
But I'd say if I had to pick, pick some stuff.
I mean, I think the passion partis super important, but also
(41:56):
like a focus and discipline and balance.
So, you know, I think you have again, that you have to have
clear expectations, you need to have goals, you need to be
persistent because that passion can get sucked away by other
things. So, you know, I'd say it's a
(42:20):
combination of all those factors, whether whether you
want to be an audio engineer or you want to be, you know, be a
musician, if you want to play inbands or you want to record
bands, it's all a hustle. It's all very competitive and
you just need to put in the workand keep doing it.
And you know, can't make a full time living doing it.
(42:41):
You figure out ways to stay in it.
Right. Oh, that's great.
I love that. You know, it balance is so huge
because, you know, in, in, in, in, in an industry like music,
it's very easy to just overwork yourself because you're trying
to make stuff happen and you forget that life just keeps
going. And yeah, you might, you might,
(43:02):
you might value other things in life that you want to also spend
time with. You know, that could be as
simple as, you know, a family, which is not very simple to
manage. So it's like some.
Yeah. I think it blows me away people
that, yeah, people that have kids and still, you know, do do
more than you have more, seem tohave more time of the day than I
(43:24):
do. Like I'm, I'm, I'm blown away
that that people are able to do that.
So people do it. But yeah, yeah.
So this is this has been a very,very wholesome conversation.
Brian, I want to thank you personally for coming on the
Metal Mastermind podcast. I had a great time speaking to
you about, you know, your history and your experience as
(43:44):
an audio engineer and a musicianinto, you know, growing into the
person that you are today. It's been a pleasure.
And for those of you who are listening to the Metal
Mastermind Podcast, know that onmetalmastermind.com, we do have
resources for the metal musician, everything from metal
guitar to bass to audio production.
And we're growing that exponentially as time goes on.
(44:07):
And a resource for the metal community.
So if you haven't checked out Metal mastermind.com, do so and
find yourself maybe a resource that works for you.
And as always on Metal Mastermind, we love to say
create your own sound. Thank you, Brian, and cheers.
Yeah, thanks for having me later, man.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com