July 7, 2025 • 41 mins
The secret to good marketing is not just to have a product, but to create an everlasting impression on your audience. Our host, Ken Candelas, has an inspiring conversation with guest speaker, Ro Kohli, the mastermind behind War Machine Custom Merchandising. Maybe you'll walk away with new ideas, too?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Metal
Mastermind. I'm your host, Ken Candelas, and
I'm here today with another dearfriend, Ro Kohli of War Machine
Merch. Hey Ro, how are you?
I am doing very well. It is a gorgeous, gorgeous
Sunday here in Los Angeles. And after the podcast, me and my
(00:35):
wife and our friend are going togo hit the pool, so I'm very
happy about that. It's getting close to 4th of
July at the recording of this video, so I'm actually gearing
up myself. I've got the backyard all tended
to. I've got everything.
I got the grill checked out. I mean, it's all coming up and
yeah, I'm super excited. But today we're not talking
(00:58):
about the 4th of July, rather maybe what you might sell on the
4th of July, which is merchandise.
So merch, What is merch? You know, Ro, you are really
well known guru and ambassador of a lot of different types of
products and brands and manufacturers and you're really
(01:21):
a network that connects all of these things together.
So what do you think merch meansto Someone Like You and what's
your journey with that? Well, I mean, merch for me, I
mean, obviously it's, it's, it'smy livelihood.
So there is, there is that it does keep the lights on and,
and, and the cats fed. However, when it comes to merch
(01:43):
for me, the way I, I look at it nowadays, I always felt like I
was on the cusp of kind of figuring it out a long time ago,
but everything else sort of distracted me along the way.
But now that I'm really neck deep into it, I really do see
the connection between merch and, and, and like solid, solid
(02:05):
plan marketing, you know, like solid campaign marketing
campaigns where they, you know, if you have the right merch to
push your campaign, your campaign in my opinion, will go
way further. So I, I started to really see a
lot more of those nuances throughout my years.
And that's kind of where I am now with merch is that I look at
(02:26):
merch not just as like, oh, it'sa thing that you sell or, you
know, you hire me to make pens for your event and here are your
pens. Enjoy.
It's like now to me, I, I feel like there's a for, for myself,
at least I have this. I, I feel like I have a much
deeper understanding to how merch kind of works
psychologically in a weird way, you know, that's.
(02:47):
Amazing. It's a very, very philosophical
way of looking at merch, actually.
You're taking on this idea, which helps to sort of break the
barrier of like, not just the transactional portrait of
merchandise, but also what does it mean?
How does it relate? How does it connect people to
the thing that they love, right?Right.
(03:10):
And not only that, but it's like, you know, let you can even
take a step further back even because if you're just like, if
you're a band, you're selling merch.
So like, that's, that's how you're trying to pay for gas
money and that's how you're trying to do all that kind of
stuff. But let's say you're a brand.
You know, I'll tell you just a short story.
I went to see Black Sabbath at the forum a good couple years
(03:33):
ago, 5678 years ago, whatever itwas.
And they were, they were, you could tell that they had
probably like maybe a boy band or something, a couple like the
day before or a couple of days before.
So the Toyota booth was still kind of there, you know, So
they're trying to promote the new Prius to like a bunch of
metal heads. It was Iron Maiden.
(03:55):
Not, not, not that. Excuse me.
It was Maiden, though. But it was just like, you know,
every, all of these like, you know, blue collar guys walking
by and they're like, would you like to check out the new Prius?
You know, and everybody's like, what?
No, but The thing is, is that they were handing out those, you
know, those little wallets that go on the back of your, your
phone, right? And it just had a Toyota symbol
on it. And I remember thinking about it
(04:15):
and I told my wife about it later.
I was just like, our phones are like the most personal thing we
own. Who was just going to slap a
Toyota logo on there? You know, unless you are a
straight, like, hardcore Toyota fan, like, you're not going to
do that, you know? So now it becomes about merch
(04:37):
that you're just handing out just to hand out without any
real idea of who you're giving it to.
You know, under this weird impression that, Oh my God,
everybody needs these phone wallets.
Yeah, but nobody needs it with aToyota logo on it.
That's. That's such a really important
aspect to all of this. People think, you know, I as a
(04:58):
band just, we got to get something out there.
And I think that's maybe a good first step to just learning the
ropes and getting accustomed to what it's like to create
merchandise. But as you grow and as you
mature, so does your music, so does your concept.
And those things become ever more relatable to your audience.
And you have to be a little bit now, more thoughtful and
(05:23):
provocative in the imagination in order to get some something
real, something exciting from your audience.
Yeah, and not only that, but youyou also want it to be something
that your audience is going to utilize, you know, you know,
something they're going to utilize because again, when just
because the merch has left your hands doesn't mean that's the
(05:45):
end of the merch. You know, the whole point of
wearing merch, selling merch is to keep that brand promoted, you
know, So when I'm wearing AT shirt, you know, that band, the
band, you know, the artwork or the back, maybe it's a lyric or
whatever. That's what needs to still
promote that that band's, you know, branding narrative, you
(06:07):
know? But again, if you're just making
stuff just to hand out, just forpeople to take and then throw
away later, it's like now you're, you're missing the whole
point and you're wasting money, but you're missing the whole
point of the whole thing, you know?
Yes, it's a it. It's a lack of attention to
detail in what you're putting out there.
(06:28):
Is it just more junk? Is it just going to accumulate
in somebody's garbage, right? Does anybody really care?
Like, you were talking about this Toyota brand, right?
Why are they going to get a Toyota brand phone case unless
they're just a super nerd about Toyota?
So in that case, right, let's talk about what's really
practical and what creates an everlasting relationship between
(06:52):
your brand and the consumer. And that's, that's, that's
longevity. That's exactly it.
And it's not like, you know, your promotional item or or
whatever has to have some, you know, monumental impact in
someone's life. But it's more about just being
really practical about it, you know, and also not thinking that
(07:14):
your brand is God's gift to the world, you know, because that's
what people end up doing is like, you know, I used to work
at Warner Brothers Records, and I remember the people there were
so intent on pushing the Warner Brothers brand.
And I'm like, other than Bugs Bunny and a few things like
that, like nobody's going to be like Warner Brothers Records.
(07:35):
I need to buy that record. Like nobody's doing that, you
know, and to assume that everyone is because you're
selling millions of records. But Prince is doing that, you
know, My Chemical Romance is doing that.
Green Day is doing that. You know, those bands are doing
that. Like it's nobody's like Warner
Brothers Records. That's my label.
You know, nobody's nobody's doing that.
(07:57):
And because of that, you know, like I, I think that that
becomes the big thing is like how much pride people have in
their brand, which is not a bad thing to have pride, obviously,
but to think that no one else isgoing to penetrate it or
anything like that is, is alwayskind of funny to me.
Just that people think like theythink their brand is just this
(08:19):
like microcosm where nothing exists outside of it.
You know, that's why I always find it to be funny when I go to
a convention or a trade show andyou know, there's whatever, 2-3
hundred, 400 booths, right? If 10% of those booths have pens
that they're giving out, you're walking away with 30 fucking
pens. I'm sorry, can I swear?
(08:41):
Just making sure, just making sure.
I don't want anybody to get demonetized.
But that's The thing is like, you know, if if you're getting,
you know, 30 or 40 pens, do you really care about pens anymore?
Right. No, not at all.
Like nobody, nobody cares about pens at that point.
After three pens, nobody cares. But the fact that this that
(09:02):
these companies and these brandsthink that they're going to be
like, all right, cool, we got pens.
Everyone needs pens, but everyone doesn't need 80 pens.
So to think that your pen is theonly one that's going to be, you
know, prominently displayed at this convention is that sense of
(09:22):
like misplaced brand pride, you know, where people aren't really
thinking about that. They're just like, no, people
need pens. Like they think about it in such
a small, small world kind of way, you know, in.
So Roe in this case, let's backtrack for a second because
you're talking about something even more important here, which
is branding and learning and understanding what branding
(09:46):
does, right. For example, why do we drink
even Coca-Cola, right? Well, because not necessarily
just it's taste. Everybody might say all the
taste is good, but you also trust that Coca-Cola will be
consistent every time that when you get that can you know what
you're getting right. So that's the thing.
(10:08):
And here let's go a little bit deeper into what is a brand and
how does a independent artist that's learning the ropes,
they're they're just basically getting around to kind of
understanding what their sound is, right?
How do they start to look at reflection and portrayal of what
(10:29):
their image and their message isinto the world?
Right. I mean that that's, that is the,
I mean, for a lot of bands, that's a $64,000 question, you
know, is what are you going to do?
And that's why when, when I talkto bands, when I, when I do
seminars or when I, when I teachclasses about it, you know, I
always try to show people, you know, not so much how to cut
(10:50):
costs, but like more or less like how to challenge yourself
more. You know, I always tell people
like, you know, come up with three ideas for items you'd like
to sell that aren't AT shirt, a hoodie, a hat, etcetera.
Like come up with three ideas and they might go, OK, a
lighter, a koozie and a lanyard.And I go, great, let's throw
(11:13):
away those ideas. Come up with three different
ones. Well, now they have to go, Oh
well, OK, maybe a bottle opener.I don't know, like, you know, a
key chain and and I don't know ayo-yo.
OK, great. Throw away those ideas.
Come up with three new ones, youknow, because by the time you
get to that second or third round, you got to really think
(11:34):
about like shit, what else is out there.
And then you start to really open yourself up to what's
actually out there. But more importantly, I think
people really need to look at their own environment.
You know, I always say that people have 5 different places
where they use stuff. Their bedroom, their bathroom,
their kitchen, their office, andtheir car.
(11:58):
Those are the five places. So if you can figure out what
item is is helpful in one of those five spots, then you
actually are on the verge of possibly creating something that
can have a longer lasting effectthan just the one to one.
Here's my item, here's my money.Great, bye.
And that's it. You know, like.
(12:19):
That's the search of uniqueness.Yeah, and, and also the search
for practicality. So one of the things I like to
tell bands is maybe consider airfresheners that you hang in your
car. You know, they're inexpensive,
about a buck, maybe $1.50 each. You know they don't, you know,
they don't cost very much. And if you sell them, you can
(12:41):
sell them for 5 bucks, 8 bucks make a large profit.
It's something that's small thatpeople aren't going to have to
feel like they are investing in your band, you know, Cuz buying
AT shirt is still an investment,you know?
And if you're the first of five bands on a show, the odds of
somebody buying your shirt are kind of slim.
And that's not a diss by any means.
(13:02):
It's just the reality of it. People want to spend their money
on the headlining bands and or booze, you know, now if you blow
people away and they're like, I need a shirt, Hey, fucking rock
on and more power to you, no doubt.
But you have to kind of figure that the most of the people who
are going to be there, maybe they liked your band and but
they don't want to invest in your band.
(13:23):
So to have something like a, youknow, an air freshener or even
like fridge magnet, you know, where it's something that people
are going to take, they're goingto buy and then put up in their
car or put it on the refrigerator, which is one of
the main places that people are in their, in their house or
their apartment is their fridge.So you want it to have that kind
(13:44):
of repeat, you know, this kind of repeat visibility over and
over again. And, you know, living in Los
Angeles, for me, I'm sitting in my car, all I'm looking at is an
air freshener just spinning in front of me.
So it's almost like you're almost automatically constantly
branding to people while they'rejust sitting in traffic.
(14:04):
Yeah, that's a genius. It's a very, like you said, it's
a very practical way of thinkingabout it because now you limit
the amount of exposure to let's say, oh, I don't know if this is
going to be something that I actually want to invest in,
right. Then that's as simple as a
decision between a dollar of a magnet or $25 for a T-shirt.
(14:26):
So you're going to absolutely make it a lot easier.
And I've seen some bands actually decide to do, you know,
some quick bundles and stuff like that in those moments as
well, that if you decide that you want to buy the T-shirt,
they'll give you the other stuffanyway.
So it's a really great way of just extending a hand, an open
handshake so that the band who especially for indie bands that
(14:51):
are maybe opening in for a headliner, that there was
audience that those members are not going to necessarily be
there for them, but that exposure gives them the
opportunity. And that is where you simplify
it and you make it easy and. Not only that, not only that,
but let's just say hypothetically speaking, you,
(15:13):
let's say you meet a radio programmer or maybe you meet a
fan who's just like, I really liked your band, but I don't
have any money. Da, da, da, that kind of thing,
You know, something like that, an air freshener, a magnet.
Those are also just kind of likeeasy, like hair man, just take
this, you know, which increases your bond with a new fan who's
like, holy crap, he just gave mesome of his merch for free.
(15:35):
But it's also not something that's going to, you know,
wreck, you know, wreck your wallet.
That's why whenever man throws ashirt into the crowd, like a
part of me dies every single time.
Like I don't care what you have to pay for that shirt, that
shirt is still your biggest, oneof your biggest money makers
next to a hoodie. You know, why would you throw
(15:56):
your biggest profit maker into the crowd?
You know, throw a throw a magnetand throw an air freshener,
throw a koozie into the crowd. Why would you throw a shirt into
the crowd? Right.
Or get car fixed. Guitar picks could be a good one
to throw. Wait, right, Guitar picks are
another thing, you know, but that's, but same thing even with
guitar picks, even though I I don't mind guitar picks,
(16:17):
obviously I love, I love gettinga guitar.
You know, you find a guitar pickon the floor of a show and
you're just like, holy crap. Like my days are just made.
You know, I was actually at a club.
It was just about, we were just about done with our, our, our
karaoke night, our metal karaokenight.
And I found a pet Benatar pic onthe ground and I felt great the
rest of the night. Like, yeah, dude, you know, but
(16:38):
again, it's like, but but yeah, guitar picks, that kind of
thing, just stuff like that. Like that's an easy giveaway.
That's not that, that's not going to wreck your profit
margins, you know, but when you're giving people a free
shirt or you're giving them a free hoodie or something, I'm
like, dude, that, that hurts my chest.
You know, that's what I mean. You know, if you're going to be
(17:00):
signed to some big merchandisingcompany like Bravado or Gold or
Global or something like that, then that's all well and good.
You have your merch contract setup.
But I don't, I don't know how any of that works.
I'm not even going to assume, but like if you're just opening
band #4 on the bill, like don't,don't give away your shirts.
(17:21):
Like, you know, it's like that'skind of the whole thing too, is
when it comes to shirts also, and this is always a very touchy
thing for me, is that, you know,as adults, you're an adult, I'm
an adult, you know, you're a metalhead.
I'm a metalhead. We've go to a literally
hundreds, if not thousands of shows in our lifetime.
You know, we've collected black shirts like nobody's business.
(17:44):
As an adult, if I get a like a lot of times people will be
like, hey, you want a free shirt?
And I'm like, I really don't because AI don't need more
shirts, or at least I don't needmore shirts that I myself don't
haven't particularly chosen for myself.
So if Monster Energy wants to give me a free shirt, I'm like,
no thanks. Give it to somebody else, you
know, because as an adult, I'm allowed to determine what shirts
(18:07):
I want to wear and what shirts Idon't want to wear.
So if I get your free promo shirt or I catch your free
shirt, there's a very good chance I'm not going to wear it,
you know, because I don't have to, you know, Whereas so this
way, it's not something that you're, you're giving away Willy
(18:28):
nilly, you know, it's like, you know, like again, it's like,
that's why to me, like giving out free promotional shirts, I'm
like 2 shirts are expensive. Well, this is a great example of
where resistance can actually behelpful where not having always
something always accessible. Hence the name.
Limited edition makes something more valuable, and that's where
(18:52):
I feel like in not just in merchandise, but in a lot of
things with just making music. It's creating a quality product
that isn't found elsewhere, but it can stand on its two legs.
Those should be a lot of the focus for many bands, especially
in the beginning, getting a goodcore product, which is of course
your music, and then graduating from here to going into your
(19:16):
brand, right? What are the things that
accompany the music as a way that makes a connection?
So I keep going. I love this and.
That's that's the thing for me too, is that I'm always a fan of
make merch that ties it into your band or your music.
So even if you're making AT shirt cool, put whatever on the
(19:37):
front and then on the back. And this is just my own opinion
for my own self. Put a lyric on the back.
Just white, just a white print. You don't need to have all sorts
of I mean, you can do other stuff, but you know, your lyrics
are part of what make a band a band, whether you're a pop band
or a metal band or whatever, youknow, it's those lyrics that we
(19:59):
are listening to. That's that's.
The art that's accompanying the music part, you know, so it's
just as important and you can't really have the riff of walk on
the back of your shirt. You know, you need respect walk,
you know, you need the words on there because the music is is a
different part of that experience.
So, but to me, I'm also a fan ofcreating merch that directly
(20:23):
correlates to the brand or to your single or to your album.
So whatever, let's say hypothetically speaking, the
your album is called Fire Walk with Me.
Well, then if that's the case, then make stuff that has flames
on it, you know, that kind of thing, like kind of incorporate
those aspects into it to give people that little frame of
reference, you know, because people need that little frame.
(20:45):
We're hit. We're that's the thing too.
It's like, it always makes me laugh when people, especially
bands come to LA and they're like, everyone just stood there
like this and I'm like, nobody knows who you are.
Like they're not all just because you, you know, just
because when you play, you know,your hometown in Tuscaloosa, AL
every, you know, all 40 of your friends start a pit, doesn't
mean that it's going to be the same thing in LA.
(21:06):
You know, So it's like, you know, to me, it's it's about you
have to be able to express yourself through that merch, you
know, and, you know, let people go.
Oh, OK cool. Like he's playing a song called
Fire. OK Yeah, the song is called Fire
Walk with Me. All right, cool.
And then they go back to the merch booth and then they see
Fire walk with me with flames. You know, like, so again, that's
(21:28):
a very simplistic example, but it's kind of where I'm going
with it. It's like, you know, if you're
going to if your album is kill them all, having the hammer and
the blood and everything on youryour, you know, on your merch is
something that's going to keep that in mind.
So for instance when. I it makes sense, it creates.
It creates contingent continuity.
(21:51):
Exactly. So when I was working at Century
Media a long time ago, you know,we would make logo stickers for
our bands. And I remember being like, OK, I
love God forbid, awesome dudes, best dudes ever.
But I was like, God forbid is just a slogan that people say.
So if that's all your sticker says, there's nothing that
(22:13):
connects it to a metal band, like any stretch of the
imagination. It's just God forbid.
What can you do? You know, I mean, I don't have a
band called what can you do? And just put a bumper sticker
that says what can you do? And you're like, I guess what
can you do, you know? But if you like, So what I
started doing was going, hey, instead of us using those
stickers to St. team, which doesn't say anything, let's
(22:35):
change it up. Make a instead of a four by two
sticker that just says, God forbid, let's make it a 4x4
sticker or maybe 3 by three sticker of the album art with
their logo nice and big. So now when people see it sniped
up places, if they happen to go into a record store or something
like that, now there's at least potentially an increased, you
(22:57):
know, possibility of them putting two and two together
when they see it, you know, thatkind of thing.
As opposed to just assuming thateveryone knows where to go and
what they're doing. Yeah, you know.
You got to, you got to leverage your assets as best as you can.
And that's a, that's a very goodthing that really comes from a
world of graphic design. I'm a, I'm a big fan of, of, of
(23:19):
graphic design. I've been actually a graphic
designer since high school. And this was something that was
such a, you know, you have to really hone in on this.
And that's making sure that whenpeople see your product on
repeat, it's even if it's just asticker here or a magnet, there
(23:42):
goes repetitions. That's actually the familiarity.
And that's where we build trust.Right.
As opposed to just being like, God forbid, I just tell you, God
forbid, there's nothing behind it.
Yeah, you have to make a connect.
You have to make makes sense, has to be a connection and you
can't be like, that's why I really hate it when bands do
(24:04):
this and my favorite bands even do this.
But when they're like, well, it's up to everyone's
interpretation. And I'm like, no, the reason I'm
listening to your band is because I want your
interpretation of what it is Like, Don't, don't.
I don't want to have to figure this part out.
Like I want to enjoy this recordor enjoy this song and not
wonder what you're singing. Put the lyric works in the damn
records. I know what the fuck you're
(24:25):
saying, you know, and and so that's why it's it's another
thing too, and I'll just throw this out there has kind of has
nothing to do with merch, but itdoes at the same time.
I always think that bands, especially metal bands, it
should, you know, especially in this day and age, we're buying
an LED or AQ LED TV is not really that crazy expensive is
(24:46):
to and you know, and doing graphic design, doing AI art,
that kind of thing is not crazy.Now is to just have the lyrics
to all your songs on like TV's behind you during the show.
Because if you had, if you're, if this is your first, like the
first time you play in LA or thefirst time you play in Tampa, FL
or whatever, nobody there knows who you are.
(25:07):
You're simply opening up for their favorite local band, you
know? But if you can get the crowd to
sing along and they know the lyrics that are right behind
them, that's just like when we watch shows with subtitles,
That's how we understand it better.
That's how we know. That's how I know Simpsons
quotes for years. Because look at the closed
(25:27):
captioning, you know, but especially if it's a repeated
phrase or repeated chorus, you know, or something like that, or
something that the crowd can sing along to.
Now it's going to stick. And then on top of it, now you
go to the merch booth and your merch has lyrics that they just
read. Right.
You know, and again, and we don't know what lyrics are going
(25:51):
to affect what person on what kind of level at any given time.
But if you're just screaming rocky rock, right, right.
And you're just, you know, growling, hey, I love a good
growl. I love a good scream.
But if I know what's behind thatlyrically, then now it's like,
OK, that could either maybe up my anger or maybe make me
remember a situation that pissedme off that I needed to come
(26:13):
away. Then it affects me, you know?
And so that's something that I'malways telling bands is like,
your lyrics are what set your metal band apart from every
other metal band. So if you have something, that's
why I think it's funny. Like a band like Acid Bath, one
of my favorite bands of all time, you know, But they have
one shirt that's got one lyric on the back.
(26:36):
And if you read the lyrics for either of their two records,
dude, you'll find 50 different quotes that you're like, I would
want that on the back of a shirt.
I would want that on the back ofa shirt.
I would want that on the back ofa shirt.
I made my own shirt, my own Azabad shirt.
That's what a Asabad nerd I am. But I made my own with one of
their lyrics on the back. And whenever I wear it to one of
the Azabad shirt shows, people are like, where did you get that
(26:57):
shirt? I'm like, I had to fucking make
it. The band would, you know, but
but that's kind of it. It's like, and, and again, it's
nothing against the band. I just, I think that I think the
band sometimes doesn't realize just how much their lyrics have
impacted so many people. That's a, that's a, that's a
really beautiful approach to taking another level above what
(27:20):
you currently are. And that's a way that you can do
it through means of production. I mean, that's a workable goal,
right? If your band doesn't have
anything visual right now on stage for live shows, I mean,
living in a modern age where so many people rely on visuals,
right? Having a simple lyric video
(27:41):
that's made with artificial intelligence as a tool to help
portray your vision. Exactly.
That's why I don't mind. Like it's funny because people
are like, well, don't you hate that AI is doing this and doing
this and doing that? And I'm like, yeah, but anybody,
any self respecting anybody, like whether you're an artist or
a writer or a graphic designer, no one you know, you're a
(28:02):
graphic designer. You're not going to be like,
I'll just AI this one like just on principle.
You'd be like, no, like that's wrong.
Everyone's right. I I I I I used to write and
publish my own magazine. I've written for a dump a ton of
other magazines, but the idea oflike dear chat, you know,
ChatGPT please write a Megadeth review.
I would like I would never ever consider that any more than any
(28:25):
self respecting musician would be like, hey ChatGPT make my new
song. You know, no metal band would
ever do that. So it's like, like you said, as
a tool though, for instance, while I love graphic design, I
am by far not a graphic designer.
I am like I'm on the short bus for graphic designers.
I cannot do it. I am no good at it.
So for me, if I need something created quickly and I, you know,
(28:49):
I can't pay, maybe I don't have the budget for a graphic
designer, then yeah, using AI asa tool, yes, you know, using it
as a crutch, you know, as a crutch, other than crutches is
not a good idea. Yeah.
And I, I, I totally agree. And I, I think even I was
working with a, a very good friend of mine, Wayne Joyner,
who's an amazing artist. And Wayne, he's been very open
(29:12):
about it, but he uses as a, as atool.
These are things that, and what I love about is that when I get
Wayne to do my stuff, it's Wayne's ideas and Wayne's, you
know, vision put together that elevate the message that I was
trying to create, which I couldn't on my own.
That's exactly it. That's the beauty of what we're
(29:34):
talking about here, guys. That's exactly it.
Of this kind of stuff. Right.
And that's kind of it. It's using it as a tool, you
know, 'cause again, if you're a poor band, yeah, maybe you can't
pay a video graphics guy 500 bucks an hour or maybe 2 grand
for the whole problem. Maybe, maybe you don't have that
kind of budget. So you do have to work within
your means, you know. But I'd like I said to me it,
(29:57):
it, it's all about connecting all of those things.
And I always find it that a lot of bands just don't, they don't
create that sort of cohesiveness.
Typically I've seen that they don't necessarily create this
kind of cohesiveness that I I feel is really, really
important. Now I have a question for you,
Roe. What what are your thoughts for
(30:18):
a band starting off with e-commerce versus trying to get
their own merch on their own andthen bringing that to a show
before going into online? What are your thoughts about the
approaches of both? OK, so there's, there's like,
obviously if you're a metal band, especially metal fans love
physical media no matter what, you know?
(30:41):
So if you're going to go to that's why any band that plays a
show and doesn't have merch, I'mjust like this.
That's the most wasted opportunity you could possibly
have. You can always make something
stupid and something cheap quick.
You know, you can always do that.
There's there's always a way to skin that cat.
I've had to do it a million trillion times.
(31:02):
It's not beyond the realm of of anything like that.
But you should always have merchat a show.
You know, maybe you don't have shirts or hoodies and you know,
the expensive stuff, but you canget, you know, you can get some
koozies, you can get something so that people can come to your
thing. Or I mean, you can go to a print
shop and print out posters that just are like, Hey, our band
(31:25):
playing at the whiskey a go go on May 20th, you know, do like a
show event post. You're like, there's so many
inexpensive things that people can do that don't cost that
much. And yet people are like, no, we
didn't have the money. And it's like what, you didn't
have $30, dude, to make some posters like it didn't call.
It doesn't cost that much, you know, and so that's kind of the
way I look at it is, you know, if you're playing a live show,
(31:47):
you have to have physical merch.You have to, you know, nobody
cares about your, your download,you know, because again, when,
when it comes to music, in my opinion, if you charge nothing
for it, people will think it's worth nothing.
Yeah. You know, I actually, when I was
managing a band a long time ago,great band called Black Chapel.
(32:09):
They, we, we were, we were giving out their, their demo at
San Diego Comic Con in my booth and trying to get people to
check it out and listen to it and watch some of the videos and
stuff. And no one would take it for
free. No one.
Wow. But they took it for 5 bucks.
Amazing. When we put it in $5, we sold 80
copies. Jesus, trying to give it away.
(32:31):
Nothing. Very, very few people were like,
I guess I'll take it at 5 bucks.We sold so many of them that we
were like, this was so stupid. But that really taught me that
lesson of when it comes to music, if you are just giving it
away, then it's almost like you yourself don't have a whole lot
of pride in it. Right.
You know, if you wanted to give it value, you would give it
(32:52):
value absolutely, you know, thatkind of thing.
So, yeah. And so that's what I realized,
you know, back in the day when Iwas doing St. marketing, I
didn't realize it at the time, You know, we're handing out
thousands and thousands of CD samplers.
And what I started realizing, unfortunately, way after the
fact was like, you know, if everyone's special, no one is
special. So you know.
(33:15):
With, with all of this considered, I mean, do you think
that merchandise and how it relates to its platform is sort
of irrelevant? It's all how you use it, how you
implement it, how you be creative with it in a way that
creates lasting memories. And whether that is as simple as
(33:39):
just a poster at a show of the show that you're doing, or, you
know, it could be a pin or something that you gave as a, as
a personal token, who knows? These are walk aways.
These are walk aways. But you want to still make sure
that even if it is a pin or a button, it's like you want to
make sure that it's something that people A, want, you know,
(34:02):
and B, are they going to use it beyond that point?
You know, I was saying before about, about certain conventions
and stuff that I go to where, you know, they'll hand out,
they'll give you a lapel pin fortheir like, I went to CES a
couple of years ago. They're this one new company was
giving out a lapel pin with their logo on it.
And I'm like, nobody knows who your company is, dude.
(34:23):
Why would anybody put your logo on anything of theirs when
nobody has any idea who you are?It's the same thing when people
hand out buttons at at comic conventions and horror
conventions. I'm like, like, I get that
you're trying to promote it, butif nobody has any kind of
emotional connection to your band, why should they sport it,
right? You know, that kind of thing.
(34:44):
So that's why whenever people give me free buttons, I'm just
like, OK, like this is it's literally like here, you do this
away. It's like, OK, I'm fine.
You know, like, that's why a lotof times I just won't take it.
People are like, oh, just take it just to be nice.
And I'm like, no, it's, it's wasting their money.
It's wasting my time. Why would I do that?
Now you asked something earlier that I wanted to go back to,
which is e-commerce versus physical commerce.
(35:06):
Now, you know, there's, there's pros and cons when it comes to
e-commerce because you can do a CafePress kind of situation
where, yes, you can put your logo on an apron and a, you
know, onesie for a toddler or, you know, I don't know, whatever
else, you know, water bottle, you can do all that stuff.
But number one, you have to hopethat there's a fan base out
(35:28):
there that wants to pay this elevated price to have your logo
on whatever item. Secondly, one of these print,
what are they called print on demand places.
You know, one of the things thatthey are doing is because
they're just doing it one at a time, they're taking the lion's
share of any kind of profit. You know, So then you have to
(35:51):
really weigh out in your head like, OK, well, you know, do we
invest in our own and make our own profit?
Or do we give the control to somebody else and make less
profit and probably sell less merch because, again, you can
throw your logo on 80 billion different items.
You know, when you're a fan and you see that you're just like,
(36:12):
all right, like, that's cool, I guess.
But like what you were saying about making things limited, you
know, I'm a big fan of that as acollector of, you know, Star
Wars and Kiss and all these kindof things.
You know, you tell me something's limited to 100
pieces. I'm going to get in line for
that, you know, And that's the beauty of it also is that
there's so many so much merch out there that you could make
(36:35):
different merch for literally every show for the rest of your
life. And it will always you'll never
go back to the first thing you make, you know, because there's
so many millions of different things you can make.
Dude, I can make you ping pong, you know, ball paddles.
I can make you ping pong balls. I can make you, you know,
freaking cutting boards and knives and, you know, cookware
and drink where you know, like you could make something
(36:57):
forever. And for a lot of things, the
minimum is like 100 pieces. So to me, if you just go, hey,
on this tour, we're making this particular shot glass only 100.
Once we're done with 100, we're going to make something
different. Well, now people are going to be
like, I want one of those 100. Right.
Or maybe, you know, I want five of those hundred, you know, and
(37:18):
then maybe they'll look at it like, oh, maybe I can sell this
on the secondary market and maybe make some money for
myself. But at the same time, even if
some, even if a fan is going to do that, you know, buy ten of
your things and sell it on the secondary, to me, that's fine
also because that means that they're providing a need for
another fan that's out there to keep your brand going.
(37:40):
That's why it always kills me when people are like, well, I'm
just going to sign it. You're going to throw it on
eBay. Yeah, who fucking cares?
Your name is the one that's going to keep progressing from
that point on. Yes, maybe your signature made
that person you gave it to 100 bucks, 200 bucks, maybe 500
bucks or something. Who fucking cares?
Your name is the one that's propagating from here.
(38:01):
There's a Luke Skywalker fan whois so stoked that he got Mark
Hamill's friggin autograph for $800.
I don't know why that would bother Mark Hamill.
What difference does it make? You know, what you have right
now is someone who continues to be a Star Wars fan and continues
to be a Mark Hamill fan, and nowis even more so of one because
they just got something they've wanted forever.
(38:21):
Well. I don't think that's a bad
thing. This has been such an
enlightening conversation row and to our audience, I think
it's fair to say that one of thebiggest things that you can I
think take away from what we're talking about is making
something that has lasting impact.
Thinking about the connections that you take not just with your
audience, but beyond your audience.
You know your audience's own connections and how they
(38:44):
propagate over into a new perhaps fan.
These are things that we have tobe aware of as artists, as
independent artists especially, who have to learn the ropes of
the games ourselves. So Ro, I want to thank you very
much for coming on today's podcast.
This has been so much fun and I've certainly learned a lot and
(39:06):
I always learn a lot every time I talk to you.
So. I appreciate that.
I appreciate you letting me do this too man, this was great.
And you know, shout out to, you know, your team over that.
Did the Roadrunner Records party.
That was such a so much fun. Thank you for having me come
over and over. It was.
Good to see you. I like that you called it a
team. It was.
It was literally me and Jim. Well, you know what?
(39:28):
Cheers to that, you know, because you guys are doing
something special and I love it so.
Yeah. We're, we're, we're excited
about it. I mean, it's still, it's still
an ongoing, you know, an ongoingproject and one that I hope
we'll see, you know, a conclusion this year.
But I'm, I'm hoping that I can do kind of like what we were
(39:49):
just talking about with, with the branding and everything.
I'm hoping that I have a, you know, the, the, the, the free
reign and, and the budget, especially to make some really
cool stuff happen with this. So be on the lookout that wrote
on a records documentary. I'm, I'm hoping it's going to be
super lit. It already looks great from some
of the edits I've already seen. But I know we still want, we
still want more, we want more perspectives.
(40:10):
We want more people. You know, yeah, there.
You know, it's funny because with that, it's like, I keep
coming up with ideas and the director and and film maker Jim
is just like slow down. I'm like, no, we can do this, we
can do this, we can. And he's just like, you know,
it's like I, I get very excited about it, but at the same time,
I also know that somebody's got to kind of rein me in as well.
(40:33):
You know, Ro, where can people find more about War Machine and
what you do and. Sure.
We, I mean, we're on, we're on most of the socials War Machine
merch and we also have WMM custom action figures on, on
Instagram and Facebook and such.So if you're ever interested in
making custom action figures or Fungo pop type figurines, that
(40:56):
is what we do. So we can do all sorts of fun
stuff. But yeah, we deal, we make
merch, we make a lot of merch. So if you need help with merch,
my job is to help you make it and not break your wallet.
Says the guy with all the figurines in the back.
So I love it. Ro this has been such a
pleasure. Thank you so much.
Everybody else, don't forget Metal mastermind.com.
(41:20):
You'll find all of our courses in the description below.
And so always remember that in all of this, don't forget to
create your own sound.
Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Metal
Mastermind. I'm your host, Ken Candelas, and
I'm here today with another dearfriend, Ro Kohli of War Machine
Merch. Hey Ro, how are you?
I am doing very well. It is a gorgeous, gorgeous
Sunday here in Los Angeles. And after the podcast, me and my
(00:35):
wife and our friend are going togo hit the pool, so I'm very
happy about that. It's getting close to 4th of
July at the recording of this video, so I'm actually gearing
up myself. I've got the backyard all tended
to. I've got everything.
I got the grill checked out. I mean, it's all coming up and
yeah, I'm super excited. But today we're not talking
(00:58):
about the 4th of July, rather maybe what you might sell on the
4th of July, which is merchandise.
So merch, What is merch? You know, Ro, you are really
well known guru and ambassador of a lot of different types of
products and brands and manufacturers and you're really
(01:21):
a network that connects all of these things together.
So what do you think merch meansto Someone Like You and what's
your journey with that? Well, I mean, merch for me, I
mean, obviously it's, it's, it'smy livelihood.
So there is, there is that it does keep the lights on and,
and, and the cats fed. However, when it comes to merch
(01:43):
for me, the way I, I look at it nowadays, I always felt like I
was on the cusp of kind of figuring it out a long time ago,
but everything else sort of distracted me along the way.
But now that I'm really neck deep into it, I really do see
the connection between merch and, and, and like solid, solid
(02:05):
plan marketing, you know, like solid campaign marketing
campaigns where they, you know, if you have the right merch to
push your campaign, your campaign in my opinion, will go
way further. So I, I started to really see a
lot more of those nuances throughout my years.
And that's kind of where I am now with merch is that I look at
(02:26):
merch not just as like, oh, it'sa thing that you sell or, you
know, you hire me to make pens for your event and here are your
pens. Enjoy.
It's like now to me, I, I feel like there's a for, for myself,
at least I have this. I, I feel like I have a much
deeper understanding to how merch kind of works
psychologically in a weird way, you know, that's.
(02:47):
Amazing. It's a very, very philosophical
way of looking at merch, actually.
You're taking on this idea, which helps to sort of break the
barrier of like, not just the transactional portrait of
merchandise, but also what does it mean?
How does it relate? How does it connect people to
the thing that they love, right?Right.
(03:10):
And not only that, but it's like, you know, let you can even
take a step further back even because if you're just like, if
you're a band, you're selling merch.
So like, that's, that's how you're trying to pay for gas
money and that's how you're trying to do all that kind of
stuff. But let's say you're a brand.
You know, I'll tell you just a short story.
I went to see Black Sabbath at the forum a good couple years
(03:33):
ago, 5678 years ago, whatever itwas.
And they were, they were, you could tell that they had
probably like maybe a boy band or something, a couple like the
day before or a couple of days before.
So the Toyota booth was still kind of there, you know, So
they're trying to promote the new Prius to like a bunch of
metal heads. It was Iron Maiden.
(03:55):
Not, not, not that. Excuse me.
It was Maiden, though. But it was just like, you know,
every, all of these like, you know, blue collar guys walking
by and they're like, would you like to check out the new Prius?
You know, and everybody's like, what?
No, but The thing is, is that they were handing out those, you
know, those little wallets that go on the back of your, your
phone, right? And it just had a Toyota symbol
on it. And I remember thinking about it
(04:15):
and I told my wife about it later.
I was just like, our phones are like the most personal thing we
own. Who was just going to slap a
Toyota logo on there? You know, unless you are a
straight, like, hardcore Toyota fan, like, you're not going to
do that, you know? So now it becomes about merch
(04:37):
that you're just handing out just to hand out without any
real idea of who you're giving it to.
You know, under this weird impression that, Oh my God,
everybody needs these phone wallets.
Yeah, but nobody needs it with aToyota logo on it.
That's. That's such a really important
aspect to all of this. People think, you know, I as a
(04:58):
band just, we got to get something out there.
And I think that's maybe a good first step to just learning the
ropes and getting accustomed to what it's like to create
merchandise. But as you grow and as you
mature, so does your music, so does your concept.
And those things become ever more relatable to your audience.
And you have to be a little bit now, more thoughtful and
(05:23):
provocative in the imagination in order to get some something
real, something exciting from your audience.
Yeah, and not only that, but youyou also want it to be something
that your audience is going to utilize, you know, you know,
something they're going to utilize because again, when just
because the merch has left your hands doesn't mean that's the
(05:45):
end of the merch. You know, the whole point of
wearing merch, selling merch is to keep that brand promoted, you
know, So when I'm wearing AT shirt, you know, that band, the
band, you know, the artwork or the back, maybe it's a lyric or
whatever. That's what needs to still
promote that that band's, you know, branding narrative, you
(06:07):
know? But again, if you're just making
stuff just to hand out, just forpeople to take and then throw
away later, it's like now you're, you're missing the whole
point and you're wasting money, but you're missing the whole
point of the whole thing, you know?
Yes, it's a it. It's a lack of attention to
detail in what you're putting out there.
(06:28):
Is it just more junk? Is it just going to accumulate
in somebody's garbage, right? Does anybody really care?
Like, you were talking about this Toyota brand, right?
Why are they going to get a Toyota brand phone case unless
they're just a super nerd about Toyota?
So in that case, right, let's talk about what's really
practical and what creates an everlasting relationship between
(06:52):
your brand and the consumer. And that's, that's, that's
longevity. That's exactly it.
And it's not like, you know, your promotional item or or
whatever has to have some, you know, monumental impact in
someone's life. But it's more about just being
really practical about it, you know, and also not thinking that
(07:14):
your brand is God's gift to the world, you know, because that's
what people end up doing is like, you know, I used to work
at Warner Brothers Records, and I remember the people there were
so intent on pushing the Warner Brothers brand.
And I'm like, other than Bugs Bunny and a few things like
that, like nobody's going to be like Warner Brothers Records.
(07:35):
I need to buy that record. Like nobody's doing that, you
know, and to assume that everyone is because you're
selling millions of records. But Prince is doing that, you
know, My Chemical Romance is doing that.
Green Day is doing that. You know, those bands are doing
that. Like it's nobody's like Warner
Brothers Records. That's my label.
You know, nobody's nobody's doing that.
(07:57):
And because of that, you know, like I, I think that that
becomes the big thing is like how much pride people have in
their brand, which is not a bad thing to have pride, obviously,
but to think that no one else isgoing to penetrate it or
anything like that is, is alwayskind of funny to me.
Just that people think like theythink their brand is just this
(08:19):
like microcosm where nothing exists outside of it.
You know, that's why I always find it to be funny when I go to
a convention or a trade show andyou know, there's whatever, 2-3
hundred, 400 booths, right? If 10% of those booths have pens
that they're giving out, you're walking away with 30 fucking
pens. I'm sorry, can I swear?
(08:41):
Just making sure, just making sure.
I don't want anybody to get demonetized.
But that's The thing is like, you know, if if you're getting,
you know, 30 or 40 pens, do you really care about pens anymore?
Right. No, not at all.
Like nobody, nobody cares about pens at that point.
After three pens, nobody cares. But the fact that this that
(09:02):
these companies and these brandsthink that they're going to be
like, all right, cool, we got pens.
Everyone needs pens, but everyone doesn't need 80 pens.
So to think that your pen is theonly one that's going to be, you
know, prominently displayed at this convention is that sense of
(09:22):
like misplaced brand pride, you know, where people aren't really
thinking about that. They're just like, no, people
need pens. Like they think about it in such
a small, small world kind of way, you know, in.
So Roe in this case, let's backtrack for a second because
you're talking about something even more important here, which
is branding and learning and understanding what branding
(09:46):
does, right. For example, why do we drink
even Coca-Cola, right? Well, because not necessarily
just it's taste. Everybody might say all the
taste is good, but you also trust that Coca-Cola will be
consistent every time that when you get that can you know what
you're getting right. So that's the thing.
(10:08):
And here let's go a little bit deeper into what is a brand and
how does a independent artist that's learning the ropes,
they're they're just basically getting around to kind of
understanding what their sound is, right?
How do they start to look at reflection and portrayal of what
(10:29):
their image and their message isinto the world?
Right. I mean that that's, that is the,
I mean, for a lot of bands, that's a $64,000 question, you
know, is what are you going to do?
And that's why when, when I talkto bands, when I, when I do
seminars or when I, when I teachclasses about it, you know, I
always try to show people, you know, not so much how to cut
(10:50):
costs, but like more or less like how to challenge yourself
more. You know, I always tell people
like, you know, come up with three ideas for items you'd like
to sell that aren't AT shirt, a hoodie, a hat, etcetera.
Like come up with three ideas and they might go, OK, a
lighter, a koozie and a lanyard.And I go, great, let's throw
(11:13):
away those ideas. Come up with three different
ones. Well, now they have to go, Oh
well, OK, maybe a bottle opener.I don't know, like, you know, a
key chain and and I don't know ayo-yo.
OK, great. Throw away those ideas.
Come up with three new ones, youknow, because by the time you
get to that second or third round, you got to really think
(11:34):
about like shit, what else is out there.
And then you start to really open yourself up to what's
actually out there. But more importantly, I think
people really need to look at their own environment.
You know, I always say that people have 5 different places
where they use stuff. Their bedroom, their bathroom,
their kitchen, their office, andtheir car.
(11:58):
Those are the five places. So if you can figure out what
item is is helpful in one of those five spots, then you
actually are on the verge of possibly creating something that
can have a longer lasting effectthan just the one to one.
Here's my item, here's my money.Great, bye.
And that's it. You know, like.
(12:19):
That's the search of uniqueness.Yeah, and, and also the search
for practicality. So one of the things I like to
tell bands is maybe consider airfresheners that you hang in your
car. You know, they're inexpensive,
about a buck, maybe $1.50 each. You know they don't, you know,
they don't cost very much. And if you sell them, you can
(12:41):
sell them for 5 bucks, 8 bucks make a large profit.
It's something that's small thatpeople aren't going to have to
feel like they are investing in your band, you know, Cuz buying
AT shirt is still an investment,you know?
And if you're the first of five bands on a show, the odds of
somebody buying your shirt are kind of slim.
And that's not a diss by any means.
(13:02):
It's just the reality of it. People want to spend their money
on the headlining bands and or booze, you know, now if you blow
people away and they're like, I need a shirt, Hey, fucking rock
on and more power to you, no doubt.
But you have to kind of figure that the most of the people who
are going to be there, maybe they liked your band and but
they don't want to invest in your band.
(13:23):
So to have something like a, youknow, an air freshener or even
like fridge magnet, you know, where it's something that people
are going to take, they're goingto buy and then put up in their
car or put it on the refrigerator, which is one of
the main places that people are in their, in their house or
their apartment is their fridge.So you want it to have that kind
(13:44):
of repeat, you know, this kind of repeat visibility over and
over again. And, you know, living in Los
Angeles, for me, I'm sitting in my car, all I'm looking at is an
air freshener just spinning in front of me.
So it's almost like you're almost automatically constantly
branding to people while they'rejust sitting in traffic.
(14:04):
Yeah, that's a genius. It's a very, like you said, it's
a very practical way of thinkingabout it because now you limit
the amount of exposure to let's say, oh, I don't know if this is
going to be something that I actually want to invest in,
right. Then that's as simple as a
decision between a dollar of a magnet or $25 for a T-shirt.
(14:26):
So you're going to absolutely make it a lot easier.
And I've seen some bands actually decide to do, you know,
some quick bundles and stuff like that in those moments as
well, that if you decide that you want to buy the T-shirt,
they'll give you the other stuffanyway.
So it's a really great way of just extending a hand, an open
handshake so that the band who especially for indie bands that
(14:51):
are maybe opening in for a headliner, that there was
audience that those members are not going to necessarily be
there for them, but that exposure gives them the
opportunity. And that is where you simplify
it and you make it easy and. Not only that, not only that,
but let's just say hypothetically speaking, you,
(15:13):
let's say you meet a radio programmer or maybe you meet a
fan who's just like, I really liked your band, but I don't
have any money. Da, da, da, that kind of thing,
You know, something like that, an air freshener, a magnet.
Those are also just kind of likeeasy, like hair man, just take
this, you know, which increases your bond with a new fan who's
like, holy crap, he just gave mesome of his merch for free.
(15:35):
But it's also not something that's going to, you know,
wreck, you know, wreck your wallet.
That's why whenever man throws ashirt into the crowd, like a
part of me dies every single time.
Like I don't care what you have to pay for that shirt, that
shirt is still your biggest, oneof your biggest money makers
next to a hoodie. You know, why would you throw
(15:56):
your biggest profit maker into the crowd?
You know, throw a throw a magnetand throw an air freshener,
throw a koozie into the crowd. Why would you throw a shirt into
the crowd? Right.
Or get car fixed. Guitar picks could be a good one
to throw. Wait, right, Guitar picks are
another thing, you know, but that's, but same thing even with
guitar picks, even though I I don't mind guitar picks,
(16:17):
obviously I love, I love gettinga guitar.
You know, you find a guitar pickon the floor of a show and
you're just like, holy crap. Like my days are just made.
You know, I was actually at a club.
It was just about, we were just about done with our, our, our
karaoke night, our metal karaokenight.
And I found a pet Benatar pic onthe ground and I felt great the
rest of the night. Like, yeah, dude, you know, but
(16:38):
again, it's like, but but yeah, guitar picks, that kind of
thing, just stuff like that. Like that's an easy giveaway.
That's not that, that's not going to wreck your profit
margins, you know, but when you're giving people a free
shirt or you're giving them a free hoodie or something, I'm
like, dude, that, that hurts my chest.
You know, that's what I mean. You know, if you're going to be
(17:00):
signed to some big merchandisingcompany like Bravado or Gold or
Global or something like that, then that's all well and good.
You have your merch contract setup.
But I don't, I don't know how any of that works.
I'm not even going to assume, but like if you're just opening
band #4 on the bill, like don't,don't give away your shirts.
(17:21):
Like, you know, it's like that'skind of the whole thing too, is
when it comes to shirts also, and this is always a very touchy
thing for me, is that, you know,as adults, you're an adult, I'm
an adult, you know, you're a metalhead.
I'm a metalhead. We've go to a literally
hundreds, if not thousands of shows in our lifetime.
You know, we've collected black shirts like nobody's business.
(17:44):
As an adult, if I get a like a lot of times people will be
like, hey, you want a free shirt?
And I'm like, I really don't because AI don't need more
shirts, or at least I don't needmore shirts that I myself don't
haven't particularly chosen for myself.
So if Monster Energy wants to give me a free shirt, I'm like,
no thanks. Give it to somebody else, you
know, because as an adult, I'm allowed to determine what shirts
(18:07):
I want to wear and what shirts Idon't want to wear.
So if I get your free promo shirt or I catch your free
shirt, there's a very good chance I'm not going to wear it,
you know, because I don't have to, you know, Whereas so this
way, it's not something that you're, you're giving away Willy
(18:28):
nilly, you know, it's like, you know, like again, it's like,
that's why to me, like giving out free promotional shirts, I'm
like 2 shirts are expensive. Well, this is a great example of
where resistance can actually behelpful where not having always
something always accessible. Hence the name.
Limited edition makes something more valuable, and that's where
(18:52):
I feel like in not just in merchandise, but in a lot of
things with just making music. It's creating a quality product
that isn't found elsewhere, but it can stand on its two legs.
Those should be a lot of the focus for many bands, especially
in the beginning, getting a goodcore product, which is of course
your music, and then graduating from here to going into your
(19:16):
brand, right? What are the things that
accompany the music as a way that makes a connection?
So I keep going. I love this and.
That's that's the thing for me too, is that I'm always a fan of
make merch that ties it into your band or your music.
So even if you're making AT shirt cool, put whatever on the
(19:37):
front and then on the back. And this is just my own opinion
for my own self. Put a lyric on the back.
Just white, just a white print. You don't need to have all sorts
of I mean, you can do other stuff, but you know, your lyrics
are part of what make a band a band, whether you're a pop band
or a metal band or whatever, youknow, it's those lyrics that we
(19:59):
are listening to. That's that's.
The art that's accompanying the music part, you know, so it's
just as important and you can't really have the riff of walk on
the back of your shirt. You know, you need respect walk,
you know, you need the words on there because the music is is a
different part of that experience.
So, but to me, I'm also a fan ofcreating merch that directly
(20:23):
correlates to the brand or to your single or to your album.
So whatever, let's say hypothetically speaking, the
your album is called Fire Walk with Me.
Well, then if that's the case, then make stuff that has flames
on it, you know, that kind of thing, like kind of incorporate
those aspects into it to give people that little frame of
reference, you know, because people need that little frame.
(20:45):
We're hit. We're that's the thing too.
It's like, it always makes me laugh when people, especially
bands come to LA and they're like, everyone just stood there
like this and I'm like, nobody knows who you are.
Like they're not all just because you, you know, just
because when you play, you know,your hometown in Tuscaloosa, AL
every, you know, all 40 of your friends start a pit, doesn't
mean that it's going to be the same thing in LA.
(21:06):
You know, So it's like, you know, to me, it's it's about you
have to be able to express yourself through that merch, you
know, and, you know, let people go.
Oh, OK cool. Like he's playing a song called
Fire. OK Yeah, the song is called Fire
Walk with Me. All right, cool.
And then they go back to the merch booth and then they see
Fire walk with me with flames. You know, like, so again, that's
(21:28):
a very simplistic example, but it's kind of where I'm going
with it. It's like, you know, if you're
going to if your album is kill them all, having the hammer and
the blood and everything on youryour, you know, on your merch is
something that's going to keep that in mind.
So for instance when. I it makes sense, it creates.
It creates contingent continuity.
(21:51):
Exactly. So when I was working at Century
Media a long time ago, you know,we would make logo stickers for
our bands. And I remember being like, OK, I
love God forbid, awesome dudes, best dudes ever.
But I was like, God forbid is just a slogan that people say.
So if that's all your sticker says, there's nothing that
(22:13):
connects it to a metal band, like any stretch of the
imagination. It's just God forbid.
What can you do? You know, I mean, I don't have a
band called what can you do? And just put a bumper sticker
that says what can you do? And you're like, I guess what
can you do, you know? But if you like, So what I
started doing was going, hey, instead of us using those
stickers to St. team, which doesn't say anything, let's
(22:35):
change it up. Make a instead of a four by two
sticker that just says, God forbid, let's make it a 4x4
sticker or maybe 3 by three sticker of the album art with
their logo nice and big. So now when people see it sniped
up places, if they happen to go into a record store or something
like that, now there's at least potentially an increased, you
(22:57):
know, possibility of them putting two and two together
when they see it, you know, thatkind of thing.
As opposed to just assuming thateveryone knows where to go and
what they're doing. Yeah, you know.
You got to, you got to leverage your assets as best as you can.
And that's a, that's a very goodthing that really comes from a
world of graphic design. I'm a, I'm a big fan of, of, of
(23:19):
graphic design. I've been actually a graphic
designer since high school. And this was something that was
such a, you know, you have to really hone in on this.
And that's making sure that whenpeople see your product on
repeat, it's even if it's just asticker here or a magnet, there
(23:42):
goes repetitions. That's actually the familiarity.
And that's where we build trust.Right.
As opposed to just being like, God forbid, I just tell you, God
forbid, there's nothing behind it.
Yeah, you have to make a connect.
You have to make makes sense, has to be a connection and you
can't be like, that's why I really hate it when bands do
(24:04):
this and my favorite bands even do this.
But when they're like, well, it's up to everyone's
interpretation. And I'm like, no, the reason I'm
listening to your band is because I want your
interpretation of what it is Like, Don't, don't.
I don't want to have to figure this part out.
Like I want to enjoy this recordor enjoy this song and not
wonder what you're singing. Put the lyric works in the damn
records. I know what the fuck you're
(24:25):
saying, you know, and and so that's why it's it's another
thing too, and I'll just throw this out there has kind of has
nothing to do with merch, but itdoes at the same time.
I always think that bands, especially metal bands, it
should, you know, especially in this day and age, we're buying
an LED or AQ LED TV is not really that crazy expensive is
(24:46):
to and you know, and doing graphic design, doing AI art,
that kind of thing is not crazy.Now is to just have the lyrics
to all your songs on like TV's behind you during the show.
Because if you had, if you're, if this is your first, like the
first time you play in LA or thefirst time you play in Tampa, FL
or whatever, nobody there knows who you are.
(25:07):
You're simply opening up for their favorite local band, you
know? But if you can get the crowd to
sing along and they know the lyrics that are right behind
them, that's just like when we watch shows with subtitles,
That's how we understand it better.
That's how we know. That's how I know Simpsons
quotes for years. Because look at the closed
(25:27):
captioning, you know, but especially if it's a repeated
phrase or repeated chorus, you know, or something like that, or
something that the crowd can sing along to.
Now it's going to stick. And then on top of it, now you
go to the merch booth and your merch has lyrics that they just
read. Right.
You know, and again, and we don't know what lyrics are going
(25:51):
to affect what person on what kind of level at any given time.
But if you're just screaming rocky rock, right, right.
And you're just, you know, growling, hey, I love a good
growl. I love a good scream.
But if I know what's behind thatlyrically, then now it's like,
OK, that could either maybe up my anger or maybe make me
remember a situation that pissedme off that I needed to come
(26:13):
away. Then it affects me, you know?
And so that's something that I'malways telling bands is like,
your lyrics are what set your metal band apart from every
other metal band. So if you have something, that's
why I think it's funny. Like a band like Acid Bath, one
of my favorite bands of all time, you know, But they have
one shirt that's got one lyric on the back.
(26:36):
And if you read the lyrics for either of their two records,
dude, you'll find 50 different quotes that you're like, I would
want that on the back of a shirt.
I would want that on the back ofa shirt.
I would want that on the back ofa shirt.
I made my own shirt, my own Azabad shirt.
That's what a Asabad nerd I am. But I made my own with one of
their lyrics on the back. And whenever I wear it to one of
the Azabad shirt shows, people are like, where did you get that
(26:57):
shirt? I'm like, I had to fucking make
it. The band would, you know, but
but that's kind of it. It's like, and, and again, it's
nothing against the band. I just, I think that I think the
band sometimes doesn't realize just how much their lyrics have
impacted so many people. That's a, that's a, that's a
really beautiful approach to taking another level above what
(27:20):
you currently are. And that's a way that you can do
it through means of production. I mean, that's a workable goal,
right? If your band doesn't have
anything visual right now on stage for live shows, I mean,
living in a modern age where so many people rely on visuals,
right? Having a simple lyric video
(27:41):
that's made with artificial intelligence as a tool to help
portray your vision. Exactly.
That's why I don't mind. Like it's funny because people
are like, well, don't you hate that AI is doing this and doing
this and doing that? And I'm like, yeah, but anybody,
any self respecting anybody, like whether you're an artist or
a writer or a graphic designer, no one you know, you're a
(28:02):
graphic designer. You're not going to be like,
I'll just AI this one like just on principle.
You'd be like, no, like that's wrong.
Everyone's right. I I I I I used to write and
publish my own magazine. I've written for a dump a ton of
other magazines, but the idea oflike dear chat, you know,
ChatGPT please write a Megadeth review.
I would like I would never ever consider that any more than any
(28:25):
self respecting musician would be like, hey ChatGPT make my new
song. You know, no metal band would
ever do that. So it's like, like you said, as
a tool though, for instance, while I love graphic design, I
am by far not a graphic designer.
I am like I'm on the short bus for graphic designers.
I cannot do it. I am no good at it.
So for me, if I need something created quickly and I, you know,
(28:49):
I can't pay, maybe I don't have the budget for a graphic
designer, then yeah, using AI asa tool, yes, you know, using it
as a crutch, you know, as a crutch, other than crutches is
not a good idea. Yeah.
And I, I, I totally agree. And I, I think even I was
working with a, a very good friend of mine, Wayne Joyner,
who's an amazing artist. And Wayne, he's been very open
(29:12):
about it, but he uses as a, as atool.
These are things that, and what I love about is that when I get
Wayne to do my stuff, it's Wayne's ideas and Wayne's, you
know, vision put together that elevate the message that I was
trying to create, which I couldn't on my own.
That's exactly it. That's the beauty of what we're
(29:34):
talking about here, guys. That's exactly it.
Of this kind of stuff. Right.
And that's kind of it. It's using it as a tool, you
know, 'cause again, if you're a poor band, yeah, maybe you can't
pay a video graphics guy 500 bucks an hour or maybe 2 grand
for the whole problem. Maybe, maybe you don't have that
kind of budget. So you do have to work within
your means, you know. But I'd like I said to me it,
(29:57):
it, it's all about connecting all of those things.
And I always find it that a lot of bands just don't, they don't
create that sort of cohesiveness.
Typically I've seen that they don't necessarily create this
kind of cohesiveness that I I feel is really, really
important. Now I have a question for you,
Roe. What what are your thoughts for
(30:18):
a band starting off with e-commerce versus trying to get
their own merch on their own andthen bringing that to a show
before going into online? What are your thoughts about the
approaches of both? OK, so there's, there's like,
obviously if you're a metal band, especially metal fans love
physical media no matter what, you know?
(30:41):
So if you're going to go to that's why any band that plays a
show and doesn't have merch, I'mjust like this.
That's the most wasted opportunity you could possibly
have. You can always make something
stupid and something cheap quick.
You know, you can always do that.
There's there's always a way to skin that cat.
I've had to do it a million trillion times.
(31:02):
It's not beyond the realm of of anything like that.
But you should always have merchat a show.
You know, maybe you don't have shirts or hoodies and you know,
the expensive stuff, but you canget, you know, you can get some
koozies, you can get something so that people can come to your
thing. Or I mean, you can go to a print
shop and print out posters that just are like, Hey, our band
(31:25):
playing at the whiskey a go go on May 20th, you know, do like a
show event post. You're like, there's so many
inexpensive things that people can do that don't cost that
much. And yet people are like, no, we
didn't have the money. And it's like what, you didn't
have $30, dude, to make some posters like it didn't call.
It doesn't cost that much, you know, and so that's kind of the
way I look at it is, you know, if you're playing a live show,
(31:47):
you have to have physical merch.You have to, you know, nobody
cares about your, your download,you know, because again, when,
when it comes to music, in my opinion, if you charge nothing
for it, people will think it's worth nothing.
Yeah. You know, I actually, when I was
managing a band a long time ago,great band called Black Chapel.
(32:09):
They, we, we were, we were giving out their, their demo at
San Diego Comic Con in my booth and trying to get people to
check it out and listen to it and watch some of the videos and
stuff. And no one would take it for
free. No one.
Wow. But they took it for 5 bucks.
Amazing. When we put it in $5, we sold 80
copies. Jesus, trying to give it away.
(32:31):
Nothing. Very, very few people were like,
I guess I'll take it at 5 bucks.We sold so many of them that we
were like, this was so stupid. But that really taught me that
lesson of when it comes to music, if you are just giving it
away, then it's almost like you yourself don't have a whole lot
of pride in it. Right.
You know, if you wanted to give it value, you would give it
(32:52):
value absolutely, you know, thatkind of thing.
So, yeah. And so that's what I realized,
you know, back in the day when Iwas doing St. marketing, I
didn't realize it at the time, You know, we're handing out
thousands and thousands of CD samplers.
And what I started realizing, unfortunately, way after the
fact was like, you know, if everyone's special, no one is
special. So you know.
(33:15):
With, with all of this considered, I mean, do you think
that merchandise and how it relates to its platform is sort
of irrelevant? It's all how you use it, how you
implement it, how you be creative with it in a way that
creates lasting memories. And whether that is as simple as
(33:39):
just a poster at a show of the show that you're doing, or, you
know, it could be a pin or something that you gave as a, as
a personal token, who knows? These are walk aways.
These are walk aways. But you want to still make sure
that even if it is a pin or a button, it's like you want to
make sure that it's something that people A, want, you know,
(34:02):
and B, are they going to use it beyond that point?
You know, I was saying before about, about certain conventions
and stuff that I go to where, you know, they'll hand out,
they'll give you a lapel pin fortheir like, I went to CES a
couple of years ago. They're this one new company was
giving out a lapel pin with their logo on it.
And I'm like, nobody knows who your company is, dude.
(34:23):
Why would anybody put your logo on anything of theirs when
nobody has any idea who you are?It's the same thing when people
hand out buttons at at comic conventions and horror
conventions. I'm like, like, I get that
you're trying to promote it, butif nobody has any kind of
emotional connection to your band, why should they sport it,
right? You know, that kind of thing.
(34:44):
So that's why whenever people give me free buttons, I'm just
like, OK, like this is it's literally like here, you do this
away. It's like, OK, I'm fine.
You know, like, that's why a lotof times I just won't take it.
People are like, oh, just take it just to be nice.
And I'm like, no, it's, it's wasting their money.
It's wasting my time. Why would I do that?
Now you asked something earlier that I wanted to go back to,
which is e-commerce versus physical commerce.
(35:06):
Now, you know, there's, there's pros and cons when it comes to
e-commerce because you can do a CafePress kind of situation
where, yes, you can put your logo on an apron and a, you
know, onesie for a toddler or, you know, I don't know, whatever
else, you know, water bottle, you can do all that stuff.
But number one, you have to hopethat there's a fan base out
(35:28):
there that wants to pay this elevated price to have your logo
on whatever item. Secondly, one of these print,
what are they called print on demand places.
You know, one of the things thatthey are doing is because
they're just doing it one at a time, they're taking the lion's
share of any kind of profit. You know, So then you have to
(35:51):
really weigh out in your head like, OK, well, you know, do we
invest in our own and make our own profit?
Or do we give the control to somebody else and make less
profit and probably sell less merch because, again, you can
throw your logo on 80 billion different items.
You know, when you're a fan and you see that you're just like,
(36:12):
all right, like, that's cool, I guess.
But like what you were saying about making things limited, you
know, I'm a big fan of that as acollector of, you know, Star
Wars and Kiss and all these kindof things.
You know, you tell me something's limited to 100
pieces. I'm going to get in line for
that, you know, And that's the beauty of it also is that
there's so many so much merch out there that you could make
(36:35):
different merch for literally every show for the rest of your
life. And it will always you'll never
go back to the first thing you make, you know, because there's
so many millions of different things you can make.
Dude, I can make you ping pong, you know, ball paddles.
I can make you ping pong balls. I can make you, you know,
freaking cutting boards and knives and, you know, cookware
and drink where you know, like you could make something
(36:57):
forever. And for a lot of things, the
minimum is like 100 pieces. So to me, if you just go, hey,
on this tour, we're making this particular shot glass only 100.
Once we're done with 100, we're going to make something
different. Well, now people are going to be
like, I want one of those 100. Right.
Or maybe, you know, I want five of those hundred, you know, and
(37:18):
then maybe they'll look at it like, oh, maybe I can sell this
on the secondary market and maybe make some money for
myself. But at the same time, even if
some, even if a fan is going to do that, you know, buy ten of
your things and sell it on the secondary, to me, that's fine
also because that means that they're providing a need for
another fan that's out there to keep your brand going.
(37:40):
That's why it always kills me when people are like, well, I'm
just going to sign it. You're going to throw it on
eBay. Yeah, who fucking cares?
Your name is the one that's going to keep progressing from
that point on. Yes, maybe your signature made
that person you gave it to 100 bucks, 200 bucks, maybe 500
bucks or something. Who fucking cares?
Your name is the one that's propagating from here.
(38:01):
There's a Luke Skywalker fan whois so stoked that he got Mark
Hamill's friggin autograph for $800.
I don't know why that would bother Mark Hamill.
What difference does it make? You know, what you have right
now is someone who continues to be a Star Wars fan and continues
to be a Mark Hamill fan, and nowis even more so of one because
they just got something they've wanted forever.
(38:21):
Well. I don't think that's a bad
thing. This has been such an
enlightening conversation row and to our audience, I think
it's fair to say that one of thebiggest things that you can I
think take away from what we're talking about is making
something that has lasting impact.
Thinking about the connections that you take not just with your
audience, but beyond your audience.
You know your audience's own connections and how they
(38:44):
propagate over into a new perhaps fan.
These are things that we have tobe aware of as artists, as
independent artists especially, who have to learn the ropes of
the games ourselves. So Ro, I want to thank you very
much for coming on today's podcast.
This has been so much fun and I've certainly learned a lot and
(39:06):
I always learn a lot every time I talk to you.
So. I appreciate that.
I appreciate you letting me do this too man, this was great.
And you know, shout out to, you know, your team over that.
Did the Roadrunner Records party.
That was such a so much fun. Thank you for having me come
over and over. It was.
Good to see you. I like that you called it a
team. It was.
It was literally me and Jim. Well, you know what?
(39:28):
Cheers to that, you know, because you guys are doing
something special and I love it so.
Yeah. We're, we're, we're excited
about it. I mean, it's still, it's still
an ongoing, you know, an ongoingproject and one that I hope
we'll see, you know, a conclusion this year.
But I'm, I'm hoping that I can do kind of like what we were
(39:49):
just talking about with, with the branding and everything.
I'm hoping that I have a, you know, the, the, the, the free
reign and, and the budget, especially to make some really
cool stuff happen with this. So be on the lookout that wrote
on a records documentary. I'm, I'm hoping it's going to be
super lit. It already looks great from some
of the edits I've already seen. But I know we still want, we
still want more, we want more perspectives.
(40:10):
We want more people. You know, yeah, there.
You know, it's funny because with that, it's like, I keep
coming up with ideas and the director and and film maker Jim
is just like slow down. I'm like, no, we can do this, we
can do this, we can. And he's just like, you know,
it's like I, I get very excited about it, but at the same time,
I also know that somebody's got to kind of rein me in as well.
(40:33):
You know, Ro, where can people find more about War Machine and
what you do and. Sure.
We, I mean, we're on, we're on most of the socials War Machine
merch and we also have WMM custom action figures on, on
Instagram and Facebook and such.So if you're ever interested in
making custom action figures or Fungo pop type figurines, that
(40:56):
is what we do. So we can do all sorts of fun
stuff. But yeah, we deal, we make
merch, we make a lot of merch. So if you need help with merch,
my job is to help you make it and not break your wallet.
Says the guy with all the figurines in the back.
So I love it. Ro this has been such a
pleasure. Thank you so much.
Everybody else, don't forget Metal mastermind.com.
(41:20):
You'll find all of our courses in the description below.
And so always remember that in all of this, don't forget to
create your own sound.
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