Hot Pursuit: A True Crime Podcast Collaboration

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to Hot Pursuit, as summer true crime collaboration where
we dive deep into the world of true crime. I'm
your host Kristen from True Crime Creepers, my co host
Alison from Coffee and Cases, and I are bringing you
something extra special. We've gathered many incredible true crime podcasters
to bring you a multi part series that's all about

(00:34):
the heat of the chase. We'll explore cases where justice
was relentlessly pursued, delve into crimes that occurred during the
scorching summer months, and highlight cold cases that desperately need
some heating up.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
From heart pounding pursuits to stories of perseverance and determination.
This collaborative effort aims to shed light on cases that
have captivated the public's imagination and those that need yours
now more than ever. Each of these stories reminds us
of the enduring quest for justice, no matter the season

(01:08):
or the circumstances. So let's dive into these incredible tales
of hot Pursuit.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Kicking off our series, we have Annie and Johanna from
Fresh Hell Podcast. Each week, they take their listeners on
a historical journey through dark cases and through tales of
the macabre in the Hot Pursuit of Truth.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Hi. I'm Annie from the United States.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
And I'm Johanna from Austria. And this is Fresh Hell
podcast hosted but two friends who have never met in
real life.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Fresh Hell is the podcast for you if you enjoy murder,
mystery and the macab Throughout history, we mostly cover old
timey cases, the paranormals, and cryptozoology, and of course some
more light hearted palate cleanser episodes sprinkled in every now
and then.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
We were so thrilled to be asked to participate in
this Hot Pursuit collaboration about crimes that took place in
the summertime. And so today we're diving into a tragic
and very disturbing case from Austria. It's the story of
Anna Augustine, a young maid who faced unimaginable abuse. And
we covered this case more in depth in episode one

(02:18):
hundred and forty one, So this is a condensed version.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
This is a very upsetting crime. I remember when you
told me about this, and I still think about this
one every now and then. This is one that sort
of gets lodged in the back of your brain for good.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Anna Augustine was born around nineteen twenty in Manustorf in Burgland, Austria.
Burgland is an area that became Austria's ninth and final
state in nineteen twenty one, and it was primarily agricultural
and many families lived in poverty. Very often, the children
of those impoverished families would be sent away to work

(02:53):
as maids or farmhands in other places. In nineteen thirty four,
around fourteen years old, an H took a job as
a maid for a wealthy couple, Josefina and Edmund Luna.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
So she started working young, which was common back then.
She was probably proud to be considered a grown up
and be able to help support the family with her
additional income, and at first everything seemed fine. Anna wrote
letters home expressing her excitement about her new life. The
Lunar children liked her, and she was seen as kind
and hardworking. But soon things took a dark turn. Neighbors

(03:30):
began noticing changes in Anna. She grew thinner and more withdrawn,
always accompanied by Josefina, who had a reputation for being stern.
What nobody knew was behind the closed doors of the
Lunar household, Anna was subjected to severe abuse.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
She was frequently beaten with various objects, starved and sometimes
only fed potato peels, and even had her hair forcibly
cut off by Josefina. Anna was forced to sleep in
the cold stone cellar and washed with cold water. Her
condition deteriorated rapidly. Unfortunately, no one raised concerns, as Anna

(04:07):
was just a young maid and the Lunars were considered
a respectable household.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
By July of nineteen thirty five, Anna had disappeared. Yosephina
claimed she sent Anna back to her family because she
was lazy and immoral, but of course Anna hadn't returned
to her family. The truth was extremely sinister and it
would all be uncovered by mid July. On July seventeenth,

(04:33):
nineteen thirty five, Edmund Lunar reported Yosephina missing and revealed
that their maid Anna was dead. Edmund told the police
that Josephina had been acting strangely and had left home
on July fifteen. When she didn't return, he found her
passport and letters indicating Anna's death. The letters informed him

(04:57):
that Anna Augustin was dead, but Zuzephena didn't explain what
had happened to the girl. Edmund then climbed up the
stairs to the attic where the maid's room was located.
On his way up, he could already smell a horrible
scent of decay. When he entered the room, he found
Anna's emaciated body on her cot. She must have been

(05:20):
dead for quite some time already. The body looked almost mummified,
and maggots were crawling all over the young girl's face.
Edmund left the house in horror and immediately went to
his lawyer, who convinced his client to go to the police.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
When the police entered the maid's room, they were absolutely
horrified about what they found. Anna Augustine must have been
dead for at least one week. Already, fluid had leaked
out of her body on to the cot. The police
had to cut the body off the bed to even
be able to transport her. The terrible extent of Anna's
injuries came to light during the examination. Her body showed

(05:58):
many large bruises and turns. Her tongue was burned, probably
with a hot iron poker, as were her genitals. She
was extremely underweight, showing only a very low percentage of
body fit. Even though it was not clear which of
the injuries was the lethal one. In the end, it
was still glaringly obvious that this was not a natural death.
When questioned about his wife, Edmund described Josephina as someone

(06:21):
who had no friends or family who liked her, as
sentiment shared by neighbors. The police quickly suspected her to
be responsible for Anna's death. They also dug into her
background and found a troubling history.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yosephina was born in eighteen ninety three and had a
troubled childhood. Her father was an alcoholic maleman who died young,
and her mother remarried and had ten more children, of
which only six survived. At sixteen, Yosephina left home working
various jobs, often returning drunk. One of her roommates later

(06:56):
remembered that one time she came home, lay down on
the kitchen floor and yelled, I'm the Mona Lisa, over
and over again. Friends from that time would later describe
her as sensual, someone who loved to gloat, lies a lot,
and was an impostor.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
That's actually a direct quote from a newspaper article from
the noiez Vina Chanal from twentieth of September nineteen thirty six.
By the way, so to me, she sounds like these
kind of people who always want to be more than
they are, and the central part, well, that was called for.
She had a couple of relationships or affairs. She had
a history of instability from a very early age. In

(07:39):
nineteen thirteen, she was involved with a man named Egon Taupna,
who died in World War One. He was a fine
manipulated Egon's mother into supporting her financially, moving in with her,
and treating her poorly until the woman's death under mysterious
circumstances in nineteen twenty six. He was a Fena was
suspected but never charged. She met Edmund Luna in nineteen sixteen,

(08:01):
married him in nineteen eighteen, and continued her manipulative ways.
They had two children and moved into a mansion in
Fuerta Paruluba Mudling that's just right outside of Vienna, down north.
And Anna hadn't been the only maid she had treated badly.
Josefina did have a history of cruel treatments of mates,
leading to multiple abuse cases before Anna's death. The investigators

(08:23):
uncovered all this and were absolutely certain they needed to
find and charge Josefina Luna.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
The police launched a manhunt. She was found only one
day later, on the eighteenth of July. An acquainted couple
had recognized her walking around in the twenty third district,
and they asked her to come and have lunch in
a nearby restaurant. While the woman was distracting Yosefena, the
man went and called the police. When authorities arrived, Josefina

(08:50):
looked very pale and only asked to be taken without
causing a big sensation. She didn't resist her arrest and
followed the police quietly. When asked about her whereabouts during
the last three days, she stated that she had been
wandering around aimlessly. All in all, she behaved rather confused
and claimed she couldn't remember a lot of things, like

(09:12):
When she was asked her age, she replied very very old.
She was forty three, by the way.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
So she was arrested and brought to trial. Yosefina claimed
that she was innocent, that Anna had suffered from a
rare autoimmune disease that had ultimately caused her death, but
that was of course not true. The trial revealed the
full extent of Yosephina's cruelty. As witnesses testified about the
severe abuse Anna endured. Usephinus defense tried to paint Anna

(09:42):
as problematic, but the evidence was overwhelming. The trial ended
on seventh of October nineteen thirty six. Yosefina Luna was
found guilty of murder and sentenced to death by hanging.
When the verdict was announced, Yosefina didn't show the tiniest
sign of an emotion. She didn't even bet an eye.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
This was served and Anna Augustin's tragic death is a
stark reminder of the hidden horrors that can happen behind
closed doors. Her story underscores the importance of vigilance and
compassion in protecting the vulnerable.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
If you found this story compelling and are interested in
learning about more historical crime cases, please subscribe to Freshil
Podcasts on your podcast.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
Slip and remember, if you're going through hell, keep going
choose Bye.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Up next, welcome Robin Wardour from The Trail Went Cold podcast,
whose quest for justice brings even the coldest cases back
to life.

Speaker 5 (10:40):
Hello everyone, this is Robin Warder, host of the true
crime podcast The Trail Went Cold. If you haven't heard
of my show, it's a weekly podcast which releases a
new episode every Wednesday about a different cold case or
unsaw mystery. The Trail Went Cold has been around for
eight and a half years now, and we've covered over
four hundred unsolved murders and disappearances. But one missing person's

(11:03):
case I have always been intrigued by and have yet
to cover is the disappearance of a teenage couple named
Mitchell Wiser and Bonita Bickwit, which took place over a
half century ago during the summer of nineteen seventy three.
I'm sure there are some aspects of this story which
might seem surprising by today's standards, but you have to
remember that the world was a much different place fifty

(11:24):
one years ago. Mitchell Wiser was sixteen years old at
the time, while his girlfriend, Bonita Bickwitt, who went by
the name Bonnie, was fifteen. They both hailed from Brooklyn,
New York, and were considered to be very popular and
intelligent teenagers who attended an alternative school for gifted, high
achieving students. They each had summer jobs, as Mitchell was

(11:46):
employed as a photography assistant at Chelsea Photographers in Coney Island,
while Bonnie traveled nearly one hundred miles to the hamlet
of Narrowsburg, located in the Catskills region of Sullivan County,
where she found employment as a mother's helper at Camp Wellmet.
The couple made plans to attend an outdoor rock music
festival called Summer Jam at Watkins Glen, which would feature

(12:10):
performances from such iconic groups as The Band, The Allman
Brothers Band, and The Grateful Dead. The concert was scheduled
to take place on July to twenty eighth, and the
plan was for Mitchell to meet Bonnie at Camp Wellmet,
where they would proceed to hitchhike the one hundred and
fifty five mile distance from Narrowsburg to Watkins Glenn.

Speaker 6 (12:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:29):
I know that these days it is universally recognized that
hitchhiking is a very dangerous form of travel, but it
was much more common during the nineteen seventies, even for
teenagers like Mitchell and Bonnie. On July to twenty sixth,
Mitchell traveled by bus from New York City to Camp
Wellmet and learned that Bonnie had just quit her job.
She apparently had issues with the family she was babysitting

(12:52):
for and had asked for time off to attend Summer Jam,
but when they refused to comply with her requests, Bonnie
decided to quit and that she would return after the
festival to collect her clothing and final paycheck. The following day,
Mitchell and Bonnie set out on their trip together, and
a truck driver would later recall giving them a brief
ride from the camp to Narrosburg before they went their

(13:14):
separate ways. The following day, Summer Jam took place at
the Watkins Glen Grand Prix Raceway, but while around one
hundred and fifty thousand tickets have been sold in advance,
a lot more people showed up there than expected, and
many of them essentially got to experience a free concert.
There was so much chaos that a massive traffic jam

(13:34):
took place in the area, with many of the attendees
just abandoning their vehicles in the road and walking the
rest of the way to the event. In total, it's
estimated that six hundred thousand people attended Summer Jam, and
the event wound up being featured in the Guinness Book
of World Records as having the largest audience to ever
attend a music festival, as it even beat out Woodstock. However,

(13:57):
to this day, it's still not clear Mitchell and Body
were among those six hundred thousand people. While Mitchell's family
knew of his plans to attend Summer Jam, they assumed
he was going to travel there via bus rather than hitchhiking.
By contrast, Bonnie's family was completely unaware of her plans
to attend the festival, and realized something was amiss on

(14:19):
July the thirtieth, when they received a phone call informing
them that Bonny had left Camp Well met three days
earlier and failed to return, even though she still needed
to collect her clothing and final paycheck. That same day,
Mitchell had a driver's lesson which he did not show
up for, and he never returned to his job at
Chelsea Photographer's, even though he also left behind it on

(14:41):
cash paycheck. Now, if there's one common trait she'll find
in missing persons cases from the nineteen seventies involving teenagers,
it's that it was often very difficult for their families
to convince the police to take their disappearances seriously or
launch an investigation unless there was strong evidence of foul play. Otherwise,
law enforcement standard response was to simply write off missing

(15:04):
teens as runaways. Not Surprisingly, the same thing happened here
when Mitchell and Bonnie's families attempted to report them missing
to the Sullivan County Sheriff's office, because even though they
were technically last confirmed to be alive in Sullivan County,
no one could be certain if they managed to hitchhike
out of the area. It turned out that Mitchell and

(15:25):
Bonnie had secretly exchanged wedding rings that summer, so the
police pretty much believed that they had gone off and
a lope together, or possibly even joined a commune or occult.
Since there wasn't much of an investigation, both teen's families
published ads in a number of different newspapers urging Mitchell
and Bonnie to call home if they were alive, and

(15:45):
they also circulated thousands of missing persons flyers with the
couple's photographs. For many years, there was virtually no evidence
to work with, and even though there were reported sightings
of the two missing teens throughout the US, none of
them ever panned out. In nineteen eighty seven, Mitch's father,
Sidney Wiser, would receive a collect phone call from a

(16:06):
woman identifying herself as Bonnie. Sidney told the operator he
would accept the charges, but after he was connected to
the caller, she abruptly hung up and never called back.
The case would fade into obscurity, but returned to the
spotlight in the year two thousand, when the New York
Daily News ran an article about Mitchell and Bonnie's disappearances,

(16:27):
and their story was also featured on an episode of
the TV series Missing Persons. A fifty one year old
Rhode Island resident named Alan Smith just happened to watch
the episode, and after recognizing the couple's photographs, he soon
came forward to the authorities with a surprising story. Smith
claimed that during the summer of nineteen seventy three, he

(16:47):
attempted to hitchhike to summer jam at Watkins Glen, but
the crowds there were so large that he never got
anywhere near the event. When Smith attempted to hitchhike out
of the area, he was picked up by an orange
Volkswagen bus with Pennsylvania license plates. It was being driven
by an unidentified man who had a teenage couple as passengers,

(17:08):
and when Smith saw Mitchell and Bonnie's photographs on the
Missing Persons episode, he became convinced it was them. While
Smith said that the couple never shared their names, the
girl apparently spoke about having worked at a summer camp,
and when Smith described the couple's clothing, it seemed consistent
with what Mitchell and Bonnie were last seen wearing. Since

(17:30):
it was very hot at the time, the bus eventually
came to a stop so that everyone could go swimming
in the four hundred and forty four mile long Susquehanna River. However,
shortly after the teenage girl entered the water, she found
herself in trouble, so the teenage boy jumped in and
attempted to save her, but it wasn't long before they
were both swept away down the river by the current

(17:52):
and disappeared, and this was the last time Smith ever
saw them. Since Smith claimed he was under the influence
of marijuana at the time and did not want to
deal with law enforcement, he never attempted to report this
incident to anyone, but he said that before they went
their separate ways, the Volkswagen bus driver assured him that
he would go to the nearest gas station to call

(18:13):
the police. Will needless to say, after all these years,
no record could be found of any phone calls that
were made to report the drowning of two teenagers in
the Susquehanna River in New York State in July of
nineteen seventy three, and as far as I know, no
unidentified John or Jane does washed up in the area

(18:33):
during this time period. Smith said that he did not
recall the name of the driver, so he was never
tracked down and questioned. And since he was unable to
identify the specific stretch of river where Mitchell and Bonnie
supposedly drowned, and no bodies rever found, there was technically
no corroborating evidence to support Smith's story. In spite of this,

(18:54):
one of the detectives who heard Smith's story believed his
account was credible, though opinions from the victims loved ones
were divided. While Bonnie's mother and sister were inclined to
believe the drowning story, Mitch's family remained skeptical and wondered
why Smith, who was an athletic Navy veteran, never made
any attempt to jump into the river to save the

(19:14):
drowning couple. But in Smith's defense, some of his friends
recalled him talking about this drowning incident right after he
returned from summer jam in nineteen seventy three, so it
did not appear that he suddenly decided to fabricate this
story after watching the Missing Persons episode on TV twenty
seven years later. Regardless of whether or not Smith's account

(19:34):
is true, it at least helped bring some new attention
to this case. Sadly, both Mitchell and Bonnie's parents are
now deceased, but their surviving siblings and friends are still
searching for answers about what happened to them. Last summer,
to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of the couple's disappearance, an
article was published about their story in Rolling Stone, and

(19:56):
it has also been featured on a number of true
crime podcasts, including The Van. Since five decades have passed
and no concrete evidence has ever been found to indicate
that Mitchell and Bonnie are still alive, I think we
can discount the possibility that this sixteen year old and
fifteen year old managed to run away and successfully start
a new life together, as I'm sure they would have

(20:18):
resurfaced or contacted someone by now. It seems very likely
that something happened to the couple during their trip to
Watkins Glen. But did they drown just like Alan Smith said,
or did they cross pass with the wrong person and
become victims of foul play. In recent years, the authorities
have investigated a few leads which involved Mitchell and Bonnie

(20:39):
possibly being murdered, but have yet to find anything conclusive.
Unless the remains turn up someday, we may never know
the full truth about what happened. But if you happen
to have any information about the disappearances of Mitchell Weiser
and Bonita Bickwit, please contact the Sullivan County Sheriff's Office
at eight four five seven nine four seven to one

(20:59):
zero zero. That's eight four or five seven nine four
seven one zero zero. Anyway, thank you so much for
joining us for this special summer collaboration episode, and if
you would like to check out The Trail Went Cold
and listen to a lot more episodes about unsolved cold cases,
please visit the website Trailwentcold dot com. That's trailwentcol dot com.

(21:21):
Have a great summer, everyone.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
Lane from Suffer the Little Children is here.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Next.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
She aims to heat things up in the cases of
lives cut short, all while giving voices back to victims
and their families.

Speaker 7 (21:36):
Hi.

Speaker 8 (21:36):
Everyone Suffer the Little Children is the podcast giving voices
back to the victims of child abuse, murder and their families.
I'm your host, Lane, and today I'll tell you an
abridged version of a story I initially covered in twenty
twenty in episode thirty three. This is the story of
a happy, playful ten year old boy named Nakota Kelly

(21:57):
who had a mega watt smile and a talent for baseball. Unfortunately,
it's also the story of Nakota's murder. In two thousand eight,
twenty two year old Hailey Kelly found what she thought
was the man of her dreams on a dating website.
Miguel and Chama was charismatic, handsome, and sweet. On May
twenty fifth, twenty ten, Nakota Blake Kelly was born weighing

(22:20):
seven pounds ten ounces. At the time, Haley also had
a three and a half year old daughter. It wasn't
until Nakota was almost two years old that Hailey discovered
the man she loved was not who he said he was.
Miguel and Chama was one of five names her son's
father used over the years he was born in Nigeria
on March eleventh, nineteen eighty three, with the name Eujique eBay,

(22:44):
although it seems he had it legally changed to Anthony
Dbaiah at some point. According to a criminal complaint filed
in August twenty eleven, Anthony was charged with fraud, misuse
of visa permits, misuse of Social Security number, and fraud
with identification document. He was ordered to be held in custody.
He was not a citizen of the United States, and

(23:06):
he possessed identification documents in the names of three other people.
Authorities believed he was a citizen of Nigeria. Despite finding
out that she was dating a con man, Hailey still
loved him, at least until he became more and more
controlling and she finally became fed up and broke up
with him. After their breakup, Anthony talked down to her

(23:26):
and insulted her, picking on her looks and her weight.
In twenty twelve, Anthony pleaded guilty to social security fraud,
identity theft, and misusing documents to stay in the country,
and was sentenced to thirty four months in federal prison.
Near the end of his sentence, a judge ordered him deported,
but according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Nigeria refused to

(23:47):
take him back. The United States Supreme Court has ruled
the government cannot imprison someone indefinitely who is in the
country illegally in cases when it is unlikely that they
will obtain the documents needed for deportation. Because Anthony could
not secure proper travel documents from Nigeria, ICE officers released
him in October twenty fourteen on order of supervision. At

(24:10):
this point, Anthony was free to walk the streets. His son, Nakota,
was four and a half years old. Nakota always seemed
to have a smile on his face, even though he
didn't have the easiest life. On top of having problems
breathing while he slept, necessitating surgery in twenty fourteen, Nakota
was also diagnosed with several other conditions throughout the years,

(24:32):
including severe ADHD, sensory processing disorder, pervasive developmental disorder, a
mild learning disability, and a speech impediment. He was at
least at one point on medication for some of his conditions.
According to statistics, children with mood, behavior, or learning difficulties
are at a higher risk of parental abuse than neurotypical children.

(24:55):
For about a year, Haley didn't hear from Anthony at all.
When he did get in touch with her, he demanded
a DNA test to prove Nakota's paternity. Then, in October
twenty sixteen, Anthony took Hayley to court for visitation with Nakota.
At first, Nakota was excited to start seeing his dad.
After Nakota's first overnight visit with his father, on New

(25:17):
Year's Day of twenty seventeen, Haley filed her first abuse
allegation with Indiana's Department of Child Services, or DCS, saying
Anthony gave Nakota a double dose of his ADHD medication.
Anthony claimed it was a mistake, saying he thought he
was supposed to give Nakota both pills at once instead
of one each day of the visit. That allegation was

(25:38):
determined to be unsubstantiated. The following month, Haley filed a
second DCS complaint, saying Nakota had suffered bruises after Anthony
dragged him down the stairs. In November of that year.
Haley complained that Anthony hit Nakota so hard in the
face that her son fell backward over a couch, landing
on his back. In June twenty eighteen, she reported to

(26:00):
DCS that Nakota was present when Anthony threatened to beat
her after she confronted him about abusing Nakota. A month later,
Hailey filed a court motion asking for Nakota's visits with
his father to be supervised, but the court ordered them
to meet with a mediator instead. Hayley ended up signing
a mediation agreement that neither would withhold parenting time if

(26:21):
they suspected abuse or other issues, and that they would
let the court deal with it instead. Why did she
sign that agreement. Hailey's lawyer told her they didn't have
enough evidence to convince the judge to change the visitation
agreement because d CS unsubstantiated all of her complaints. Nakota
even told a DCS caseworker himself that he didn't want

(26:42):
to go with his abusive father anymore, saying Anthony hit him,
smacked him, yelled in his face, and didn't feed him enough.
At one point, Haley refused to send Nakota with Anthony,
but the police showed up at her home in Wabash,
Indiana and threatened to arrest her if she didn't allow
her son to go with his father. Out of options,
Hailey relented. She was doing everything she could to stop

(27:05):
Nakota's unsupervised visits with Anthony, but no one listened to her.
On July fourteenth, twenty twenty, ten year old Nakota made
an alarming statement to Hailey. Nakota was afraid to spend
the weekend with Anthony because he knew his dad would
be angry with him for hanging up when Nakota didn't
want to speak to him. Haley immediately told a DCS

(27:26):
caseworker that after being informed that he would be spending
the weekend at his father's apartment in Indianapolis, Nakota.

Speaker 7 (27:33):
Replied, oh, I'm dead, don't expect me to come home.

Speaker 8 (27:37):
When asked for clarification, Nakotah told his mother.

Speaker 7 (27:40):
My dad is going to kill me.

Speaker 8 (27:42):
DCS took no action to prevent the upcoming weekend visit,
although they did open a case. Haley had no choice
but to allow it, fearing she would be jailed if
she didn't, she wouldn't be much help to Nakota or
his older sister behind bars. A judge had ordered that
Nakota's weekend visitation would begin at six pm on Fridays,
but Nakota's final Little League baseball game of the season

(28:05):
was scheduled for the evening of Friday, July seventeen. It
meant a lot to Nakota to be there, so, despite
Anthony's demands that she meet him for the custody transfer
at six pm, Haley brought Nakota to his father after
the game was over. Anthony was furious that she was
late and told Haley he would never cooperate with her again.
The following day, at seven thirty six pm on Saturday,

(28:28):
July eighteen, twenty twenty, Nakota spoke with his mom on
the phone for the last time, telling Haley he had
just eaten a couple of lunchables and was watching YouTube.
They went back and forth, as they always did, about
who loved who more, and Haley told her son that
she would see him tomorrow. About two hours later, Anthony's
cousin in Texas called nine one one and said he

(28:50):
had received a text message and then a call from
Anthony Tobiah. Anthony and this cousin hadn't spoken for nearly
twenty years until they reconnected about a month before. The
cousin told the dispatcher that Anthony, who was weeping, screamed
over and over, I just killed my son. Anthony asked
for the cousin's address, but the cousin refused to give

(29:11):
it to him. This apparently upset Anthony, and the cousin
hung up and immediately called nine one one. Just after
ten p m, Indianapolis police went to the apartment complex
to perform a welfare check. Anthony's vehicle, a white Jeep Patriot,
was parked in the parking lot. Officers knocked on the
door of Apartment E and heard someone moving around inside,

(29:33):
but they received no answer. Feeling there was no reason
to force entry, police left. On Sunday morning, July nineteenth,
police received another report from a friend of Anthony's. The
friend said Anthony called him that morning and confessed that
he had used a plastic bag to suffocate Nakota to death,
then took his son to the bathroom to make sure

(29:54):
he was dead before dumping the body in an undisclosed location.
When police arrived at the dress again at around eleven
forty five a m. Anthony's vehicle was no longer parked
in the lot. This time, because of the second report,
authorities were taking the situation seriously enough to deem it
necessary to enter the apartment, which they did after obtaining

(30:14):
a key from building management. Inside, they found neither Anthony
nor Nakota. There was a small amount of blood in
the apartment's entrance. In the bathroom, police found a large
amount of blood splattered on the walls, floor, and ceiling.
There was hair and brain matter on the bathroom floor.
Based on the evidence inside the apartment, authorities immediately believed

(30:38):
Nakota was dead. IMPD homicide detectives, child abuse detectives, the Indianapolis,
Marion County Forensic Services Agency, and the Marion County Coroner
were summoned to the crime scene at Anthony Dubia's apartment.
Investigators obtained surveillance video in which they saw Anthony Dbaia
making numerous trips from his apartment to his vehicle, placing

(31:00):
items into the back of the vehicle with each trip.
During one trip, he was seen placing a bag inside
the complex's communal dumpster. Between two twenty seven am and
eight thirty am on July nineteen, twenty twenty, Anthony's vehicle
was seen leaving the parking lot and returning several times.
Also on July nineteenth, Hailey contacted the DCS caseworker again

(31:23):
after she received a text message from Anthony at two
oh one pm, reading, sometimes I hear voices my son
is in Heaven. Hailey refused to believe at the time
that Nakota was dead. Even though she feared Anthony would
abuse their son, she never thought he would kill Nakota.
She reported the text message to DCS, who forwarded it

(31:44):
to Indianapolis detectives. Investigators traced Anthony's cell phone location and
ascertained that he was driving through Illinois toward the Missouri border.
The same afternoon, Anthony was located and attained when the
Missouri State Highway Patrol spotted him traveling alone in his
white Jeep Patriot IMPD detectives traveled to Missouri, but Anthony

(32:05):
refused to give them a statement and was arrested. Police
found blood in the back of his vehicle. Anthony was
charged with murder in the presumed death of his ten
year old son, Nakota. The Marion County Prosecutor's office said
a conviction in this case would result in either life
without parole or the death penalty. Anthony was booked into

(32:26):
the Marion County Jail, where he was held without bond.
Over the next three years. Anthony's trial was scheduled and
rescheduled over a dozen times. At long last, at a
change of plea hearing in September twenty twenty three, Anthony
changed his plea from not guilty to guilty but mentally ill.
Thanks to a plea agreement he struck with the prosecution,

(32:49):
Anthony admitted in court to killing his own son. At
his sentencing hearing in October, Anthony was sentenced to fifty
two years in prison. Anthony Debiah, now forty one one
years old, is currently serving his sentence at the Wabash
Valley Correctional Facility in Carlisle, Indiana. His earliest possible release
date is August first, twenty fifty nine. Disclosing the location

(33:13):
of Nakota's remains was not stipulated in the plea agreement,
and Anthony has never revealed that information. As of this recording,
Nakota has not been located. Now, as I like to
do at the end of all of my episodes, I
want to tell you about who Nakota was. Nakota Blake
Kelly was a happy, playful boy with an utterly charming smile,

(33:35):
curly black hair, gorgeous brown eyes, and glasses. He played
baseball for the Wabash Little League, and he also enjoyed bowling, football,
and wrestling. He loved the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles for
most of his life. He also loved video games. One
friend from church set about Nakota.

Speaker 7 (33:54):
He had a smile you cannot forget. He was always
dressed like a little gentleman. He was ordering and kept
me on my toes. I loved his spunky, yet sometimes
bashful personality. Nakota's grandparents, Debbie and Phil, said Nakota loved
Marvel superheroes and eating at mac donald's. Nakota and his
older sister adored each other and enjoyed playing and spending

(34:16):
time with each other. Nakota was, according to Haley, Mamma's boy.
Whenever she was sick, he refused to leave her side.
Haley lovingly described Nakota as a protector who stood up
to bullies despite his small stature. He loved reading, but
wasn't terribly fond of math, and he was sensitive to
race issues, telling people his black and white cat named

(34:38):
King was biracial like he was, Haley said. Nakota also
loved to cuddle my Sources for this story were the
Indie Channel, WISH TV, Crime Watch eight, the Indie Star,
Fox fifty nine, Facebook, the Indiana Department of Correction website,
Indiana's My Case Portal, thirteen, w t h R, and
the Chronicle Tribune. To learn more about Nakota and to

(35:02):
hear the stories of other children murdered by their parents, guardians,
or caretakers, check out Suffer the Little Children. Wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Coming at you now is nine one one dispatcher Brandon
from Music City nine to one one, who is known
for his unyielding commitment to bringing justice to light. On
his show, he explores real nine to one one calls
and crimes from the perspective of a dispatcher himself.

Speaker 9 (35:30):
Most crimes are reported on now on one, especially in
the hotter months of summer. Hot pursuits they can have
it at any time, all with their own twists and turns.
But with this incident, the twists and turns are not
something usual during a police pursuit.

Speaker 7 (35:50):
Sure this ch Michelle speaking, How may I help you?

Speaker 10 (35:54):
Hey, Michellevis and calling from Start two hundred at the
Pilot Travel Center, Privy Junction.

Speaker 6 (35:58):
Hi.

Speaker 10 (36:00):
I just called a little while ago and reported, you
know the Amber alert that was on for yesterday with
a little girl and her dad.

Speaker 11 (36:08):
What's the address you called for?

Speaker 10 (36:10):
The address is five seven two five Highway fifty eight.

Speaker 12 (36:15):
One second, Okay, I see your call.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
What's going on?

Speaker 13 (36:18):
I'm sorry, I see your call.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
What's going on?

Speaker 10 (36:22):
I think it's the girl and I think it's the dad.
They're going towards Barbersto right now. I have a picture
of the little girl that was in the front. She
came in and got two sodas from me, and then
number eight and the guests came to me and told
me it's the same Nissan Frontier and everything. They faked
like they were going down south on the three ninety
five and they turned around. You can see him going

(36:43):
in front of our cameras, and he said he ended
up going east fifty eight towards Barso.

Speaker 9 (36:52):
I'm going to have to back up a bit on
this one, since it started a pretty good ways before
this call came in almost two year years ago. In
September of twenty twenty two. Forty five year old Anthony
Graziano was about a month into a separation that was
leading to divorce with his wife, Tracy Martinez, who was

(37:12):
also forty five years old. During the separation, they were
living apart from each other. On September twenty six, a
little after seven thirty am, police could a report of
shots fired at the Cypress Elementary School that is situated
between Long Beach and Anaheim, just south of Los Angeles
and California. After arriving at the scene, they discovered Tracy

(37:37):
Martinez shot several times. She was still alive, but barely
hanging on. Before being transported to a hospital, she told
police she knew who shot her, her husband, Anthony Graziano.
After arriving at the hospital, doctors did everything they could,

(37:58):
but Tracy died from those multiple gunshots. Back at the
scene of the shooting, police started questioning those who were
there and find out that not only did Anthony shoot Tracy,
he likely shot at a van that had a man
and a child inside. Keep in mind that this was
right in the middle of the time to drop off
kids at the school, so there were people everywhere. This

(38:21):
could have been a lot worse than it was. After
looking around for more evidence and asking more people for info,
they found some. One parent had cell phone video of
the suspects vehicle, a white twenty seventeen Nissan Frontier pickup
truck with a toolbox and a black rack in the back.
Another video was picked up from a security camera and

(38:43):
what was on that was pretty shocking. In the back
seat of the truck was a teenage girl. That girl
was tracing Anthony's daughter, fifteen year old Savannah Grasiano. She
had witnessed her mother being killed. Believing Savannah was abducted
and in a very dangerous situation, police immediately issued a

(39:05):
namber alert. Anthony was described as either a male white
or male Hispanic, around five foot four inches tall and
weighing around one hundred and fifty pounds. He was considered
armed and dangerous. Savannah was described an alert as being
five foot two with brown hair and eyes. The tag

(39:26):
on the suspect vehicle was also listed as California Tag
four three zero five GAS and George two. The alert
was put out by California Highway Patrol in a number
of counties, including San Bernardino, Kern, Riverside, and Los Angeles.
The suspect was on the run and everyone was looking

(39:48):
for him, but especially they were looking for Savannah. The
nine on one call we just heard was the sighting
police needed. They got his location and the direction he
was heading, probably out further in the desert towards Barstow.
But one peculiar thing stuck out. When police arrived to
talk with the caller, they watched security camera videos from

(40:11):
inside the store. Savannah was casually walking around inside alone
and walked to the counter and paid for two sodas.
She didn't at all look distressed. Just a few minutes
after the night on one came in, police spot a
white Nissan Frontier running at a high rate of speed
on Highway fifty eight, then exited to get onto Interstate fifteen.

(40:36):
Hey sir, are you approaching Londwood.

Speaker 13 (40:39):
I'm sorry, Tony. Are you approaching the Lendwind exit.

Speaker 6 (40:44):
Yeah, that's a yeah.

Speaker 13 (40:46):
There's a white take up truck probably do one hundred
miles an hour. Yeah, that's the one. I'm trying to
hitch up to. Its Nissan Frontier.

Speaker 9 (40:55):
Hey, Jimmy, about a half a mile from.

Speaker 13 (40:58):
Him for three lane straddling number four. Still trying to
catch up to it. Coming up on OCD and speech
are over one thirteen and say, I wonder if I
could get a CSV on them, maybe as a charger
and to keep up to them.

Speaker 14 (41:15):
I could be they were advised.

Speaker 13 (41:17):
They didn't give me their locations on why they were one.

Speaker 9 (41:20):
Officers finally catch up with the white nies on front.

Speaker 7 (41:23):
Here.

Speaker 9 (41:23):
Something is put out on the radio. No dispatcher likes hearing.

Speaker 13 (41:28):
Shot fired, shot fired, I copee shots fired, taking rounds,
shots shot fired?

Speaker 15 (41:34):
I cot be taking rounds.

Speaker 13 (41:35):
Still number one? Watch out, watch out, watch out?

Speaker 15 (41:39):
Canine?

Speaker 6 (41:39):
Are you okay?

Speaker 13 (41:40):
You gotta check on K nine. He's off in the desert.
Adviser said, Number one lane still north out correct southbound?

Speaker 10 (41:48):
Five shots fired.

Speaker 16 (41:49):
I'll go for.

Speaker 13 (41:53):
Give me an ownership and some additional units still southund
number one lane.

Speaker 9 (42:00):
Shots were being taken from inside the truck of pursuing deputies,
and they were very accurate for the speed that was
being driven. I've watched dozens of videos of suspect shooting
at pursuing officers, and their rounds very rarely find their mark.
This time, more than one police vehicle was hit, both
of them several times. One of the officers inside taking

(42:23):
shrapnel from one of the bullets. California Highway Patrol in
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department both had helicopters up and
were requested to where the pursuit was happening. It took
a little bit for him to get there, but did
manage to get overhead and keep the truck in sight.
The pursuit continues with the CHP helicopter overhead. The next

(42:44):
clip is pretty hectic and difficult to hear, being that
they have to monitor more than one radio channel at
a time.

Speaker 13 (42:52):
The shot was a right forror.

Speaker 16 (42:56):
So we're looking at that white truck right you to.

Speaker 6 (43:09):
The right shoulder, passing the car carrier. Okay, okay, you
got it. Sorry you guys want to situation on the
free week probably himself over my still to.

Speaker 16 (43:19):
Slow down here. I'm going to concentrate on the fuller.

Speaker 6 (43:24):
Shoulder again.

Speaker 13 (43:25):
Just be careful to read them.

Speaker 16 (43:33):
From if you need the buyos, Jeremy, let them know
I'm I sees volume. If you can let them know,
I'm three quick. Richville E T two part of the
Richville ET two.

Speaker 6 (43:52):
We're overhead. We have the camera on the suspect.

Speaker 13 (43:55):
We're recording on you.

Speaker 10 (44:01):
One suspect recording audio and video.

Speaker 16 (44:14):
Oh wait, coming up, he's got his shoulder.

Speaker 6 (44:19):
He's coming out to the shoulder. Shoulder for the subway.
Warn rogers before we out here, doll passing down.

Speaker 9 (44:29):
Tension is already at a crazy level. A pursuit of
a father suspected of killing his wife traveling with a
possible abducted team. It speeds over one hundred and ten
miles an hour, shots being fired at the police and
hitting their mark. But the next bit of info relayed
from both the ground units and the helicopter is both

(44:50):
crucial and confusing, truly.

Speaker 16 (44:53):
Over the overpast a half mile north of north, suspect
vehicle south down passing north stutter Now.

Speaker 6 (45:02):
It number one lane crossing over north starter heault twenty.

Speaker 13 (45:06):
Four vehicles in the number one lane southbout fifteen just
fired a shot out professonal window.

Speaker 6 (45:14):
And we're getting those suits and he's still firing and
actively firing out of the driver's side window.

Speaker 9 (45:21):
Officers on the ground pursuing the white truck reported that
shots were being fired out of the passenger window, with
an air unit directly overhead, advising that there were more
shots coming from the driver's side. Unless this five foot
four inch tall suspect has the longest arms ever, I
would believe it would be nearly impossible for him to
be firing shots out of the passenger side window at

(45:43):
police cars while they were traveling behind him, let alone
do so with any accuracy. While he was driving and
shots were being fired, a citizen in a vehicle captured
some of the rounds being popped off on his dash cam.

(46:15):
After the entire incident was over, the driver of the
vehicle with a dash can was interviewed by police asking
what he saw.

Speaker 17 (46:24):
I flipped the video and then that's when I caught
the back end of him, and then I didn't expect
the gun to pop out shooting at me or at
the cops that he was. It looked like it kind
of looked like he was aiming at me. I mean,
I don't know.

Speaker 15 (46:37):
I don't know where what part of the car. Did
you see the gun come out of the passengers right
up the passenger side, right here.

Speaker 6 (46:45):
Right up the side.

Speaker 18 (46:48):
He was leaning out, just open fire. And was it
the driver or was it someone else in the car.
It must have been someone else because someone was still
driving the truck.

Speaker 9 (47:00):
Confirmed by deputies on the ground and this person that
shots are being fired from the passenger side. Just seconds
after those, the air unit reports shots being fired out
of the driver's side. Authorities are still investigating this bit
and haven't put out anything official on it yet, but
it seems that fifteen year old Savannah may have been
helping her dad shoot at police. That would explain how

(47:23):
the shots being fired were hitting their targets so easily.
As I said before, pretty difficult to hit a moving
police car from a vehicle going over one hundred miles
an hour while driving. The pursuit continues approaching the main
street exit of Interstate fifteen, approaching Victorville, California.

Speaker 6 (47:42):
Wait, can just be the traffic's coming to you? Let's
stop up here. There could be way too much leftcop
brush hand gage. If he does end up exiting and
making contact with you guys, he gets the traffic actually fired,
He's just he's over here making a You turn a

(48:03):
level at me, but he's he's in the hard rap.
They had what these liberties? Yeah, hey, deputies is going
to run out.

Speaker 16 (48:13):
Drum the ague.

Speaker 6 (48:17):
Hey, you guys, He's gonna lose control here as he
goes up that embankment that we have the units on
Fair Valley. He's going out, dude, people forty due always dude.
Let we don't know how the open door. You know
you're clear. Be he walking Families, that man, he's fired

(48:41):
units back up. It takes a cover, takes out. We
have your own patdrop on the south. Families say you're cover,
got out there, starting fire set, shouts are fired, shots
are fired. Continue to shoot up the dep He throws out,
or I don't know about all right? He grows out. Guys,
So you two years out because any want out of

(49:06):
high people skip any other passengers. You guys, watch your
pack shop because on the actual watch your pack trop
for cross freeway tracks, watch your crossfighter guys.

Speaker 9 (49:25):
The white truck stopped just past the main street exit
and then started going the wrong way up the entrance ramp.
When Anthony saw a police awaiting him there, he tried
to go up a steep dirt and grass embankment to
get around the police. The truck lost traction and he
didn't make it all the way up the hill. He
went backwards back down towards the interstate, where more shots

(49:46):
were fired from inside the truck. Officers returned fire. In
the middle of all that, the fifteen year old passenger
gets out of the truck. While officers there didn't have
body worn cameras, at least one officer was wearing what's
called a belt recorder, which is an audio recorder that's
attached to his belt. Audio from the massive shootout was captured,

(50:10):
starting just before Savannah got out of the truck.

Speaker 18 (50:25):
You pass the jerk it out.

Speaker 7 (50:26):
Passenger, get out, get out, get out, get out, pass
the jerk it out.

Speaker 18 (50:31):
Get out.

Speaker 19 (50:36):
There, get here.

Speaker 20 (50:41):
Come to me, Come to me, Come to me, Come
to me.

Speaker 14 (50:44):
Co cop come come cokaynop SAP, you your you get
the warm top.

Speaker 18 (50:55):
She's okay's in the car stop.

Speaker 9 (50:59):
With all the was going on, it was difficult to
tell what was happening. The officer was calling Savannah over
to him, trying to get her out of the main
area where the shots were being fired, which is coming
from different sides of the truck, both on the entrance
ramp and from the interstate. She's seen from video from
the helicopter getting out of the vehicle, wearing tactical gear

(51:22):
and a helmet, walking a few feet from the truck,
then laying down. She then gets up again and starts
walking towards the officer or she then falls to the ground.
She had been shot. Early in the investigation, it wasn't
certain if her dad had shot her or if it
was the police. Recently, police have said that she was

(51:43):
struck from one of their own guns. What's still under
investigation is if she was caught by one or more
poorly aimed bullets, or if she was directly fired upon,
because it looked as if she was advancing towards the
officers at this point, all the firing had ceased. An
officer's approach to truck as well as Savannah. Anthony Graziano

(52:05):
was declared deceased at the scene. Haven't been shot multiple times.
Savannah was rushed to a local hospital, where she also
later passed. As I've said before, even though this all
happened over a year and a half ago, the entire
incident is still under investigation. Thanks for listening to this

(52:29):
clip of Music City.

Speaker 10 (52:30):
Nam on one.

Speaker 9 (52:31):
If you'd like to hear more of this, it's a
portion in the episode called high Speed Pursuits. Listen to
that or any other of Music City Now wants more
than two hundred episodes from Music City Now on one.
I'm Brandon and y'all have a good.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Welcome Nina from Already Gone podcast, whose fiery determination makes
her a force to be reckoned with in the world of.

Speaker 21 (53:02):
It's a sunny Saturday afternoon. You hear a commotion in
your yard. Then you hear gunfire, and you look out
the front door to see a woman covered in blood.
You run to her and she's dying right in front
of you. This isn't a creepy Halloween tale. This is
the true story of the murder of Ali Bruger. Alexandro Bruger,

(53:28):
the only child of Franz and Nicki Bruger, was born
November ninth, nineteen eighty four. As an adult, Allie stood
only four foot nine inches tall, and she weighed less
than one hundred pounds. Her parents said she was small
in stature, but mighty in presence. She was a graduate
of Holly High School, where she was the editor of

(53:50):
the school paper and graduated with honors. In the summer
of twenty sixteen. Thirty one year old Ali was working
on her master's degree in creative writing, and she was
employed as a nurse at a hospital in Nova, Michigan.
Some would say that writing was her love and nursing
was her job. An avid runner, Ali regularly went out

(54:13):
for ten mile runs and she followed the same route
on fish Lake Road in Rose Township Well. She ran
that nearly every day for weeks. One sunny Saturday in
July of twenty sixteen, someone decided to take aim at
her with a shotgun. They fired four shots. Alie mortally wounded,

(54:35):
collapsed on the lawn in front of a house. The
homeowner called nine one one for help and then he
rendered first aid. He was trying to stop the bleeding
and trying to comfort her, but Ali didn't survive. Who
would want to kill Ali Bruger and why? Investigators scoured
the scene, and reports say they found four shotgun casings

(54:58):
near her body. While four shots were fired, only one
hit its mark and it was enough to kill Ali Bruger. Sadly,
there isn't a lot of evidence or clues for investigators
to follow. There were reports of a vehicle seen in
the area, a white or light colored sedan, racing up
fish Lake Road around the time of the shooting without

(55:22):
much in the way of motive. Police had to look
at the people closest to her they turned their attention
to her parents and her boyfriend and listeners. I feel
terrible for her parents. Their only child is gunned down
in broad daylight and they are investigated. Could they be
responsible for her murder? In time, investigators were able to

(55:44):
clear Ali's parents. They are no longer considered suspects in
the case, and this leaves many people looking at Ali's boyfriend,
a guy she met while working at the hospital in
Nova Weston Sutherland, an Army veteran who served as a
combat medic. He says he was at home asleep by

(56:05):
himself with his phone turned off at the time Alli
was murdered, and I'm wondering was Wes still her boyfriend.
This is up for debate because while he and Ali
had lived together for about two years, Allie moved back
home in the spring of twenty sixteen and was residing
with her parents at the time of the murder. Early

(56:29):
in the investigation, police focused on Ali's father, Franz Bruger,
a Vietnam veteran, and Wes Sutherland, her former boyfriend. Each
man was issued a polygraph. Multiple news agencies reported that
Wes Sutherland failed a polygraph related to Ali's murder.

Speaker 12 (56:47):
And if you're.

Speaker 21 (56:48):
Wondering what led to the breakup between Wes and Ali,
the answer depends on who you ask. Wes has said
that Ali was in a hurry to get married while
he was not. He wanted to finish nurse school. Ali's
friends say that she moved out after finding Wess's profile
on a dating website. And whatever the reason for the breakup,

(57:09):
the relationship appeared to be over by July of twenty sixteen.
In fact, the relationship was so over that Ali's mother
said her daughter had planned a visit to Florida in
August of twenty sixteen. Allie was going to visit a
guy that she'd dated previously. Sounds to me like Allie
had already moved on. So who shot Ali Bruger in

(57:33):
broad daylight on July thirtieth of twenty sixteen. Was this
a random killing? Could Ali have been involved in a
road rage incident? Or was she tracked down by someone
that she knew. It's been four long years and we
are still looking for answers. Ali Bruger left behind her parents,

(57:54):
many close friends, and her beloved dog, Zeus. There are
multiple rewards available in this case. If you have information
about the murder of Ali Bruger. You can leave an
anonymous tip with Crimestoppers of Michigan at one eight hundred

(58:15):
seven seven three two five eight seven, or contact the
Michigan State Police. I'm Nita Instead, host of the Already
Gone podcast.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Next on our roster, we have the hosts from Sirens,
a Southern true crime podcast, who bring a blazing intensity
to every story they cover.

Speaker 11 (58:44):
I'm Raven Rowlands and this is my Southern true crime
podcast where I discuss cases from my former hometown a
to Oklahoma paints itself as an average community, but its
history of murder and corruption runs deeper than any story
he's ever told. You'll hear plenty of special guest guests,
including authors and experts in their fields who visit with
me on each episode, as well as other cases in

(59:06):
the Southern States with notorious and unknown cases alike. Every
victim sees the light on my show. This is Sirens,
a true crime podcast. A life might end, but sometimes
their case lips forever. Charlie Donnelly, the girl who was
taken In nineteen ninety five, the movie seven with Brad

(59:28):
Pitt and Morgan Freeman was released. Top charting songs that
year were Gangsta's Paradise by Coolio, Waterfalls by TLC, as
well as Kiss from a Rose. On April nineteenth, nineteen
ninety five, Timothy McVeigh set off a bomb at the
Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing one
hundred and sixty eight people, including eight federal marshals and

(59:52):
nineteen children. Six hundred and eighty others are wounded. For
more information on that case, please check out our three
part many series Up in Smoke, where we discussed the
bombing in detail, as well as the events leading up
to it. Like the siege at Waco, nineteen ninety five
was to a historical year with white broncos and even
more tragedy. But before the year begins, we travel back

(01:00:15):
to my hometown of Ada, Oklahoma, where fifteen year old
Daniel Firr leaves home for the last time. Join me
as I discussed this case with my co host, Professor
Manda McNeely, as well as Daniel's mother and sister, Gail
and Chelsea.

Speaker 12 (01:00:30):
I am Chelsea. I am Daniel's little sister, and we
wore seven years apart. I was eight years old. My
brother was killed. It wasn't until after I graduated high
school and pursued criminal justice that I started digging into

(01:00:57):
my brother's case myself and really started investigating and looking
at his case. Even though I was really young when
Daniel was killed, I still remember him as being the
pesty older brother, like chasing us around the house and
with a purse strap and you know, trying to attack

(01:01:18):
us and being the honoery big brother. And so he
was the typical big brother picking on us little kid.

Speaker 19 (01:01:24):
So I'm Gail Whitson. I'm Daniel's mother. I had Daniel
when I was a senior in high school. You were
a baby, I was a baby being grant. Daniel kind
of grew up together. Daniel was a very fun young kid.
Never gave me any trouble uptil a year before his

(01:01:46):
death is when he started like hanging with the wrong
crowd to get with the wrong people. And at that
point I had become a single mother and I had
three other children, so I was a single mom of
four kids. It was difficult. It's difficult times. Like I said,
Daniel kind of grew up together. He loved animals.

Speaker 5 (01:02:06):
He had a.

Speaker 19 (01:02:09):
Newspaper out and when he go do aice paper out
when he comes back, he'd have like ten dogs falling him.
Dogs come from me. I petted them and they followed
me on. Then he had to go back around and
take every dog back home.

Speaker 12 (01:02:25):
We did adopt one and named it Bow.

Speaker 19 (01:02:28):
Yes, he had one steaky old dog and bowl Sky.
But he loved Bow and Bo loved him.

Speaker 10 (01:02:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 19 (01:02:36):
There's a little creek just uh, probably about ten blocks
from our house, and he go down there with his
little boy scout camping thing and he catches crowd as.

Speaker 20 (01:02:44):
He cook them.

Speaker 5 (01:02:45):
Did he eat them?

Speaker 16 (01:02:47):
Yes?

Speaker 19 (01:02:47):
Oh, but he liked to be outside. He liked boy scouts.
He liked to do outdoor stuff, camping.

Speaker 11 (01:02:54):
In nineteen ninety four, Daniel began hanging out with a
bad crowd. He often disappears for days or weeks on end,
and informs his mother Gail that he has joined a
gang called Crip's eight Ball. He will not disclose member
names to Gail, other than m H whom Daniel is
supposedly selling drugs for at the time, and one other member.

(01:03:17):
Daniel tends to get into a lot of trouble around
this time, and in November of nineteen ninety four he
enters Willow View juvenile center. Daniel begins receiving death threats,
telling Gail that quote they showed up with a message
that if he talked, he would be killed. End quote.
Daniel's stay in Will of You is thirty days long.

Speaker 19 (01:03:36):
Once he went up to the placement where he was,
you know, supposed to go, he said, their thirty days.
He started telling me, you know, he said, I just
want to see if I could do it, And they
said they took him to a place and they told
him he had to steal a car and then they
had to run down what they called the gauntlet where
you run down and they beat you. Oh my god,

(01:03:57):
threw it and he goes, I'll do it. But after
he came to a census and was in treatment for
a while, he says, this is scary. They've came to
my window and told me if I said anything that
because I placed him up in Oklahoma City and that's
where he supposedly got jumped to the gang and he
was fourteen. That was right before he turned fifteen. He

(01:04:17):
said they actually came to the window of his room
and through the window told him. And that was just
days after.

Speaker 11 (01:04:26):
In June of nineteen ninety five, a childhood friend of
Daniel will call the Fourth Scout tells me that he
spoke with Daniel around this time. He says that Daniel
told him that he thought he had made a group
of guys very upset with him and they were making threats,
but he wasn't too worried about it. The friend states
that Daniel was actually in really good spirits and told

(01:04:48):
him that he was happy and had been doing well.
We jumped to July sixth, nineteen ninety five. Daniel was
seen by Gail that morning. He was also seen at
his grandmother's house that day. This is the day that
Daniel and his father, Harvey, get into a fight. Daniel
leaves Harvey's house, and this is the last time Harvey
sees him alive.

Speaker 12 (01:05:08):
So my dad was out of town or out of state.
While he was gone, Daniel was to stay with my mom.
Daniel had broken the house and stolen some items from
my dad. Upset my dad that he had broken and
stolen something from him. He did confront Daniel about it
and they had gotten into an argument, and so then
my dad left. And the bad thing about that is

(01:05:30):
that's something my dad had always had to live with.

Speaker 14 (01:05:34):
He hated that.

Speaker 12 (01:05:36):
That was the last thing he said to his son.

Speaker 14 (01:05:38):
The words got heated or whatever.

Speaker 12 (01:05:40):
A few days later, you know, he loses Daniel, and
you can't ever take that back. And so I know
throughout the years after that, my dad battled a lot
of depression and blamed himself. So that really really was hard.

Speaker 19 (01:05:57):
I went through his room and I found some money
eighty five dollars I was stashed in his mattress the
day that he left. We'll put it that way. I
confronted him, and then I finally said, I got it,
and if you will tell me where you got this,
you know I will give it right back. He said,

(01:06:17):
just give my money.

Speaker 12 (01:06:18):
Mom.

Speaker 19 (01:06:18):
We got a big fight. So the last time I
ever talked to my son too, it was a big fight,
and he walked down the street and away, and that
was my last words with him too.

Speaker 16 (01:06:30):
So I live with a lottery regret on that too.

Speaker 11 (01:06:32):
A witness states that Anthony Taylor and his crew showed
up at a friend's house and invited them to a
party at the quarry later that night. According to authorities,
it is believed that this night, July seventh, nineteen ninety five,
is the night Daniel is murdered either late that night
or early into the eighth at this party. From statements

(01:06:55):
to police, we gather that there could have been around
a dozen possible witnesses to Daniel's murder that night, all
underage kids he went to school with or quote gang members. However,
on July eighth, a girl will call MC says that
LM who was Anthony Taylor's girlfriend at the time, told

(01:07:16):
her that she saw Daniel around five thirty pm on
the eighth. She does not say where and I do
not have an interview with the police from her. On
July eleventh, nineteen ninety five, at five point fifty five pm,
a nine to one one call came into the Ada
Police dispatch from Pastor Bill Galbraith. Bill, at the time
was the pastor for the first Presbyterian Church in Aida

(01:07:39):
and the Scout troop leader for Troop nine. He informed
dispatch that several boy Scouts from his troop, which was
also Daniel's troop, had reported to him that they had
found a body at the west side of the old
brick plant or quarry, just east of the church near
the Rock cliffs. Daniel was five ten and around one
hundred and fifty pounds, so reports of the body being

(01:08:02):
six feet tall, weighing one hundred and sixty pounds, with
long black hair and no facial hair. Age is approximated
at twenty five years old, and at the bottom other
descriptors are recorded with height being five to four or
sixty four inches and weight is noted at ninety two
point five pounds, along with the age of fifteen and

(01:08:25):
the race of white. It also says his hair is brown.
These two descriptors are both on the same report, one
at the top, one at the bottom.

Speaker 12 (01:08:36):
I think this is the important part for everybody to
realize why we had so much doubt.

Speaker 19 (01:08:41):
I got it autopsy before the sheriff did. I had
one in hand. I had to waiting up there at
the Emmy's office fort At It said five to four.
That's what I started questioning. And I saw a picture
of the body and the hair went along the shoulder
to the end, and I said, just explain this long

(01:09:02):
black hare to me.

Speaker 11 (01:09:04):
It seems that the body was found in the active
decay stage, near the end of decomposition, with only advanced
decay or skeletonization remaining, which would take around a month.
Even in the heat, so the me did not note
what stages the maggots were in, nor their shape, size,
or color. Maggots can be present at any stage, but

(01:09:26):
these factors can tell us how long they have been present.
Since these things were not recorded, we cannot use them
for etymology purposes.

Speaker 19 (01:09:36):
I questioned the medical exam on that because I had
took homicide investigation courses just got out of them, and
I said, you put the day of death the day
you found the body. He said, how else were we
going to know? I said, the gestation of the maggots,
and he said, we don't do that for a homicide investigation.
You need to know the time of death. I had questions,
I had valid questions, and they would just tell me.

Speaker 6 (01:09:58):
I was in denial.

Speaker 11 (01:10:00):
With all of this information, our team believes the body
could have been dead for at least two weeks to
a month, with no blood present at the scene other
than one small leaf, and it's a suspected stabbing. We
believe that there's a good chance that the body was
killed somewhere else and then placed at this scene. This
would also explain why, if the body was older than

(01:10:22):
two weeks, no one found it in this spot. Prior,
as we know that the Scouts regularly meet at the
church every Tuesday and played around this spot each week,
yet did not witness the body there in previous weeks.
In August of nineteen ninety six, Gale speaks with Daniel's dentist,
doctor Clark. Doctor Clark didn't believe that they could have

(01:10:45):
matched ID with the records that he provided. He stated
that an X ray had not been done of Daniel's
teeth since nineteen ninety one, when Daniel was eleven years old.
He said he would have lost teeth and new ones
would have grown in so be unlikely that an ID
could be made from them. Those x rays from nineteen
ninety one were the ones sent to the Medical Examiner's

(01:11:07):
odeontologist and used in the comparison and eventual ID of
the body as Daniel.

Speaker 12 (01:11:14):
Clearly, the X rays that were sent from Daniel's dentist
was done when Daniel was eleven years old. There's a
huge gap in between those times.

Speaker 11 (01:11:23):
We do have the official reports for that comparison. It's
very light and we agree it seems unlikely a match
could have been made from them. July of two thousand
and six, Daniel's family does a news story about possible
exhumation of the body to test it to find out
if it really was Daniel. The emmy stated after it

(01:11:46):
aired that they had a tissue sample from the body.
The family is told they will need to obtain a
court order for the samples. In January of two thousand
and seven, the family calls the Texas lab to see
how the testing is coming along. They are told then
that they never received the samples from the Medical Examiner's

(01:12:06):
Office for comparison.

Speaker 19 (01:12:08):
So I called the ma's office and asked them, and
they said it's too decomposed. I said, I don't care.
It belongs to me. Now I have a court order.
Will you please send it to my lab and they
can determine how decomposed it is. And they said, no,
you'll have to get another court order. And I was
just every time they did that to me, it knocked

(01:12:28):
the breath out of me. They just kept knocking me
on my feet.

Speaker 11 (01:12:32):
Family requested another court order to release the sample to
the lab anyway. While they are waiting on this second
court order, and six months later, Joe Glover finds samples
from blood from the body in the basement of the
courthouse in Ada labeled as Daniel Furr. It is sealed
in an evidence bag with a sample of DNA, a

(01:12:54):
leaf with blood and hair samples. The DNA and hair
are sent to the lab tested against Gail. That sample
was confirmed to be Daniel's DNA. But where is the
chain of custody for these samples? Why were they stored
in the courthouse basement instead of the Medical Examiner's office
or an official evidence locker. How did they have these

(01:13:16):
samples after the medical examiner themselves stated that their samples
were not viable and had no other samples. Was the
body found at the quarry misidentified due to an overwhelmed
system in the months after the Oklahoma City bombing? Why
did the medical examiner report one physical finding of the
body only to change it later. Why has the autopsy

(01:13:39):
report been left pending for twenty eight years? To hear
our full episode on Daniel's case, find The Sirens podcast
streaming wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find
Daniel's case in our new true crime book, Sense of
the South, a true crime case collection to advocate for
anywhere you get your books online. Don't let Daniel be forgotten.

(01:14:02):
Don't let his case, Grow Colder.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
Get Ready for Everything Scary podcast whose stories of anything
under the umbrella of fear are as captivating and humorous
as they are well researched.

Speaker 20 (01:14:23):
Hey, how's it going good?

Speaker 18 (01:14:24):
How are you good?

Speaker 14 (01:14:26):
So here's the deal.

Speaker 22 (01:14:26):
We're going to record a super short episode because we
were so honored to have been asked.

Speaker 14 (01:14:31):
To participate with a bunch of other podcasts. Nice, We're
all going to share but a fifteen minute story.

Speaker 22 (01:14:37):
And that way, different listeners can listen to different pods
and if you like the pod that you listen to,
then jump.

Speaker 18 (01:14:44):
On in what kind of podcasts? Any wrestling or it's all.

Speaker 14 (01:14:47):
True, definitely all asks not wrestling.

Speaker 18 (01:14:52):
Like, there's no dumb questions at your place.

Speaker 22 (01:14:57):
And I have to apologize beforehand because brevity not where
I shine. We understandably can't exceed fifteen minutes, because you know,
everybody's got to get a chance. Oh right, And this
is a huge case that I'm doing, so I will
be covering it in depth on our pod, okay, at
sometime in the near future, because it's fresh on my
brain now. But because I am also going to be

(01:15:19):
leaving out a bunch of important details. We're just going
to get like the kind of shall of the case
so they can understand Cole's notes.

Speaker 18 (01:15:26):
That's a reference that Americans got, Yeah, cliff notes probably.

Speaker 22 (01:15:29):
And so today we're going to be cover telling the
case of the Oklahoma girl Scout murders. This takes place
just outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I just I have
to say super quickly, Hanson's from Tulsa, Oklahoma. I'm gonna
leave it at that because I only have fifteen minutes,
but I had to say it, and I love Hanson.
So the theme that we're supposed to go with is

(01:15:51):
like summer crimes. This is a camp crime that takes
place at the beginning of summer. It was actually June twelfth,
nineteen seventy seven. One hundred to one hundred and fifty
girl scouts loaded onto the buses and they were headed
to Camp Scott, which was about two miles south of
Locust Grove, Oklahoma and Mays County. The camp had been

(01:16:12):
open for forty nine years and one of the little
girls that was headed to camp was eight year old
Lorie Farmer. Her parents were Sherry and Bow and they
said that it really kicked in how nervous they were
to send their oldest child to camp when they watched
her load onto the Greyhound bus as.

Speaker 18 (01:16:31):
All the reality yes, wait wait wait wait wait.

Speaker 14 (01:16:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, she's also eight. Baby, she is a baby.

Speaker 6 (01:16:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 14 (01:16:39):
But I mean the seventies, I'm sure was a different time.
Like we looked back on just the.

Speaker 22 (01:16:44):
Eighties and we think about like latchkey kids and stuff.
We're like, what the fuck were these parents thinking? I
had a patient yesterday, Matt. This is hand to god.
Her brother accidentally shot her with a shotgun when she
was eleven and he was twelve.

Speaker 14 (01:16:57):
Uh huh. Anyways, we only have fifteen minutes, so let
that sit with you.

Speaker 23 (01:17:02):
I mean, our American listeners will be like, okay, what
do you have a nice Tuesday story?

Speaker 18 (01:17:06):
That's nothing, So, you.

Speaker 22 (01:17:09):
Know, Sherry would say that she was worrying the entire
time that the bus was on the road that they
were getting to get into a wreck. So like, by
the time that the enough time had passed and they
hadn't heard anything about a bus getting into a wreck,
she was like, all right, great, breathe a sigh of relief,
and then just was like, Laurie's gonna have an amazing
time all right. Another little girl was ten year old

(01:17:29):
Denise Milner. Denise did not want to go.

Speaker 14 (01:17:33):
To camp at all.

Speaker 18 (01:17:34):
I hear you, Denise.

Speaker 22 (01:17:36):
She was really excited to go at the beginning, but
two of her friends were also planning on going, and
then they kind of canceled last minute, and so she
was going alone.

Speaker 14 (01:17:46):
And she was like, I don't want to do this,
but her mom.

Speaker 22 (01:17:48):
Was like, Okay, listen, go get a feel for it,
meet your cabin mates, and then like, if you're so
adamant that you.

Speaker 18 (01:17:54):
Don't want to come home, it's trap kids.

Speaker 14 (01:17:59):
They you're breaking up.

Speaker 18 (01:18:01):
Yeah, when I got along measuring your bedroom for an elliptical.

Speaker 22 (01:18:07):
Sadly though, that night, when all these little kids did
arrive to the camp, it was a thunderstorm, and Denise
did write her mom like a lengthy letter and saying
I want to come home, and then she signed it
your loving daughter, Denise. Then there was Michelle Gousse who
was nine years old. Her parents had put her on
the bus that day, were confident they were fine because
they had actually sent her the year before, and she was.

Speaker 14 (01:18:29):
She loved it. She had a great time.

Speaker 22 (01:18:31):
So when the girl Scouts arrived at the camp, it
was raining, and everyone was getting their room assignments, and Michelle, Denise,
and Laurie.

Speaker 14 (01:18:38):
Were assigned to Tent seven.

Speaker 22 (01:18:39):
And it's kind of confusing because there is eight tenths
they go around, but the first tent, which is going
to be on the left hand side, so it's kind
of like a rainbow shape. Okay, so the first tent
is the counselor's tent, and it doesn't count as a number,
but there are eight tenths, so it's like you read
it in different areas and it's either says eight or seven,
so the same thing. All of the other tents had

(01:19:02):
four occupants except for number seven or eight, and there
was another little.

Speaker 14 (01:19:07):
Girl that was actually supposed to be in this tent.

Speaker 22 (01:19:09):
But by the time everybody got organized, it was pouring,
and so everybody, the cancers and everybody were just like, okay,
just sleeping there tonight and then in the morning, we'll get.

Speaker 14 (01:19:18):
It all sorted out.

Speaker 18 (01:19:19):
Did you go to camp for you camp?

Speaker 14 (01:19:20):
I went to what's it called up there just in Bradford.
It was Scaling. I went to Scaling Creek when I
was in grade seven. Is that it's a camp? It's
a camp?

Speaker 16 (01:19:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 14 (01:19:30):
And then I went to arts camp. I went to
arts camp in grade eight, which was so much fun, except.

Speaker 22 (01:19:37):
For I had a crush on a dude and then
the last day it was like a dance and he
asked my friend Laura to go with him instead of me.

Speaker 18 (01:19:44):
So, wow, arts camp, You're like, I don't know which
way this is? Hey, what's up? I'm Lynn? Hi, I'm Lynn.
Has it going?

Speaker 6 (01:19:55):
So?

Speaker 22 (01:19:57):
So the way, like I said, it was a rainbow
type shape that the tents were in, But so you
would think like with the one the councellor's tent and
then the tent number seven or eight, they're directly parallel
to each other, but the shower unit is in between
those things. So technically the only tent that wasn't able

(01:20:19):
to be seen by the counselors was tent number eight.

Speaker 18 (01:20:22):
Shit, I don't like that. You said that.

Speaker 14 (01:20:23):
No, And it's also the youngest campers.

Speaker 22 (01:20:26):
Lorie Farmer was actually the youngest child that was there
at the camp at eight years old.

Speaker 14 (01:20:31):
She was turning nine relatively soon.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
Wow.

Speaker 22 (01:20:33):
Yeah, so they had an eight year old to nine
year old and a ten year old completely out of
view of anybody that is above sixteen.

Speaker 23 (01:20:41):
Yeah, I was just gonna say like, and then the
counselors they didn't like because some of the camps away
to the counselors were the highest level of yeah, like kids.

Speaker 22 (01:20:50):
They did have a camp like high, high up, but
she was in like like a brick and mortar kind
of nice of course she had, and it's still there
to this day. It's just abandoned and like, I watched
a YouTube video of them go through it and they
were like videotaping, like the kitchen and everything.

Speaker 14 (01:21:10):
Creepy as hell.

Speaker 22 (01:21:12):
Oh man, So cancers did a head check at ten
PM and then they two went to bed. At about
one point thirty, camp counselor Carla will Hit was woken
by giggles coming from tent number six, and she and
another councelor, d Elder, went to check on the kids
and tell them to go to sleep. As Carla was
headed back to Tent one, she heard what she described
as a low guttural growl love, somewhere between a foghorn

(01:21:37):
and a bull frog. She said, oh, like that, So
she shined her light into the woods and it stopped,
and then she went to walk away and it started again.
So she shone her light in there again, and it
stopped again, and so at this point she was just
convinced that it was some type of an animal. Carla
awoke next day at six am and went to have
a shower. As she walked the main path, she noticed

(01:22:00):
a few sleeping bags that were crumpled up at the base.

Speaker 14 (01:22:04):
Of a tree.

Speaker 22 (01:22:05):
As she got closer, she realized that there was a
child laying in one of the sleeping bags, and getting closer,
she realized that the child's eyes were open and vacant.

Speaker 14 (01:22:16):
She was no longer alive.

Speaker 22 (01:22:17):
Keulnclers began checking all of the tents, and when they
got to seven or eight, they discovered no children and
no sleeping bags on the beds. Camp director Barbara Day
would first call the authorities and then, in an extremely
strange move, would call the camp's insurance company before calling
the parents. She actually called her insurance company and attorney

(01:22:38):
before contacting the parents.

Speaker 18 (01:22:41):
I mean, you never know how you're going to react.

Speaker 14 (01:22:44):
No, I'm certain you can say that you should not
react like that. I'm going to go out on a
limb and say I don't think I would do that.

Speaker 18 (01:22:52):
It's so the correct order. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 24 (01:22:55):
Would be police, parents, attorney boss some way down, like
days later, you're calling your attorney like, yeah, get this
fucking figured out right now.

Speaker 14 (01:23:05):
And then we'll deal with the legalities of it later.

Speaker 22 (01:23:08):
Yes, So a bunch of evidence was left behind. Bloody
footprints would be left on the wooden base of the
girl's tents, a large flashlight that had a black plastic
like a garbage bake taped over the light, and then
they had just poked a pinhole in it so that
they could have like a.

Speaker 14 (01:23:22):
Little bit of light. The inside of the flashlight had
also been stuffed with newspaper, because you remember those old humongous.

Speaker 18 (01:23:30):
Flashlights that the battery would like rattle around.

Speaker 22 (01:23:33):
So whoever did this wanted that noise to be muffled. Yeah,
all three girls had been bound and sexually assaulted in
one way or another, and a near by home robbery
would show that a crowbar, a rope, and tape had
been taken from the home and they were believed to
be the exact same items that were used in the murders,
and those exact items would be found along the fence

(01:23:55):
line of the camp. If when I go into this deeper,
I will give you a bunch of deep tales. But now,
for brevity's sake, it was not the owner of the
shed who was robbed. He had nothing to do with it.
He was quite a suspect for quite some time, but
he was eliminated. A squirrel hunter would come across a cave.

Speaker 18 (01:24:13):
That was come on, just say, you're a loser, okay.

Speaker 14 (01:24:19):
A loser who would come across a cave that was
close to Camp.

Speaker 18 (01:24:23):
Scotch, I'm a big game squirrel hunter.

Speaker 14 (01:24:27):
I'll show them. It looked as though someone had been
living there.

Speaker 22 (01:24:30):
They found a pair of broken glasses in a beige case,
torn masking tape that would later match the tear pattern
exactly on the one that was on the flashlight, and
two pictures of pretty women. These photos were taken by
a prison photographer, Lewis Lindsay, who was a prison guard.
Where Jeane, Okay, so I'm going to tell you who

(01:24:51):
our suspect is.

Speaker 14 (01:24:52):
His name is going to be Jean.

Speaker 18 (01:24:56):
Ling was like, I didn't know what sort of garment
his name would sound like.

Speaker 23 (01:25:05):
I thought it was Dan with Denham, but then I went, Geane,
it's gotta be you figured it out.

Speaker 22 (01:25:10):
So Jean Leroy Hart he was a fugitive that was
on the run. He had broken out of a prison
in nineteen seventy three, so he had been on the
run for four years at this point in time, and
he had been sent to jail in nineteen sixty six
for rapes of two pregnant women at the same time.

(01:25:30):
He also beat them up and put tape covering their
mouth and nose and eyes, so he kind of just
left them for dead.

Speaker 6 (01:25:36):
Wow.

Speaker 22 (01:25:37):
He covered them with you know, brush and then he
went away. These women, of course, survived, and they would
also say.

Speaker 14 (01:25:44):
That when he was raping them, he.

Speaker 22 (01:25:46):
Too would let out a low guttural noise, much like
the one that can't cancer.

Speaker 14 (01:25:52):
Hurt un the murders. So he would be paroled for
that crime in nineteen sixty nine. Two pregnant women years parol. Yep,
get out of here. What are you doing in here? Gene.

Speaker 22 (01:26:05):
He was then put back in jail because of robberies,
and he was given like something absurd like eight hundred
years or something.

Speaker 14 (01:26:11):
He's like, pregnant women rape, Yeah, three years and not
a day more. But robberies. Did you buy the old
Henry did?

Speaker 6 (01:26:21):
Well?

Speaker 18 (01:26:21):
That's the oj robbery thing, right, FJ. Was jaywalking.

Speaker 14 (01:26:25):
He was going to go, yeah, fair enough, sentence was
going to be fair enough.

Speaker 22 (01:26:28):
I like the way you think so positively because I
just think that they value robbery more than women.

Speaker 14 (01:26:33):
But who am I?

Speaker 22 (01:26:34):
So then he was able to break out nineteen seventy three,
and this was his second breakout, and an inmate that
had broken out with him said that they would carry
flashlights when they were committing crimes, and they would tape
garbage bags covering the lights and would make small pinpricks
in the bag so that they could use the tiny
little bit of light when they were committing their crimes.

(01:26:56):
This convict would also say that Gene would steal glasses
because he had really shitty eyesight and he was just
hoping that one of these days he would steal his
perfect prescription.

Speaker 18 (01:27:07):
I know, maybe wait till.

Speaker 23 (01:27:09):
You find your perfect pair and then start stealing, Like
I know, it's like a chicken in the egg, and
but like you know, wonder you find them.

Speaker 22 (01:27:18):
So, like I was saying, in that cave, they found
these pictures that were taken by the you.

Speaker 18 (01:27:24):
Know, prison guards, guardbiographer.

Speaker 22 (01:27:26):
And those particular pictures were ones that Gene himself had
Actually what is it called when you make.

Speaker 18 (01:27:32):
The photo commissioned?

Speaker 14 (01:27:34):
No, like he directed, No, when you go to like
a photo place and they.

Speaker 18 (01:27:39):
Take portrait, take a photo photograph, I want to kill
you now subject.

Speaker 14 (01:27:45):
Developed developed, so he had developed those photos.

Speaker 22 (01:27:50):
Also in the cave, they would find the rest of
the newspaper that went hand in hand with the one
that had been shoved in the flashlight, and it.

Speaker 14 (01:27:57):
Was also written on the cave walls. The killer was here.
Bye bye fools seventy seven, six seventeen.

Speaker 18 (01:28:03):
What an idiot.

Speaker 15 (01:28:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 14 (01:28:06):
So, like I mentioned before, we will be doing a
way deeper dive on this case.

Speaker 22 (01:28:11):
But there's so much more. They finally were able to
arrest Gene. He was founded a friend's home and taken
into custody. During his preliminary hearing, Gene would be acquitted
of his crimes.

Speaker 18 (01:28:22):
Oh wow.

Speaker 22 (01:28:23):
He was a native to the area, and by native,
I mean it in every he was like indigenous yea.

Speaker 14 (01:28:29):
And he he was very respected in the area.

Speaker 22 (01:28:33):
And he had so many family and friends and supporters
that they were actually rallying out front of the courthouse
for him. But luckily he still had all those bajillion
years that he had to serve for stealing an o' henry.
So they were like, hey, well you're fucking you broke out,
like you can't just go back, so go to jail,

(01:28:53):
and lucky for everyone, two months after his preliminary hearing,
Jane would drop dead in the workyardice as he had
an apparent heart attack.

Speaker 14 (01:29:02):
He was thirty five. Oh nice, and demon years. I
think it's a lot more. It's like dogs, it's like
seven years to the I don't know.

Speaker 22 (01:29:11):
In twenty nineteen, they would test the DNA that was
located and it would cost tens of thousands of dollars
that the Sheriff's department did not have, but people in
the community would rally and they came up with the money.
And there was two DNA samples, but they only had
partial profiles. One was a hair fall of cule and
the other was seamen that was left on one of

(01:29:32):
the little girl's sleeping bags.

Speaker 14 (01:29:35):
They were only able to say that it did not.

Speaker 22 (01:29:37):
Rule Jean Leroy heart out, but anyone else that was
on the list of suspects was able to be ruled
out with those partial profiles.

Speaker 18 (01:29:48):
Who rallied his supporters.

Speaker 22 (01:29:50):
At well, it's twenty nineteen too, so we're talking twenty
two years later and like I don't understand, like his
friends and family, Yeah whatever, but.

Speaker 14 (01:30:03):
You can't killed three babies.

Speaker 22 (01:30:06):
So that is the extremely condensed version of the And
I will be posting letters that all three girls wrote
to send home to the parents on their first night
of camp. Devastatingly, the parents would not receive the letters
until after their children had passed. I will also post
a picture of the tent setup so that you guys

(01:30:26):
can understand. And our Instagram is at everything scary pod
and thanks for listening.

Speaker 18 (01:30:33):
I hope to hear from you again.

Speaker 14 (01:30:34):
We really guys, come join us. We're a lot of fun,
kind of cool.

Speaker 18 (01:30:38):
I mean some people say they have said it before.

Speaker 14 (01:30:40):
There's been a guy. Okay, okay, okay, bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
Rounding out our lineup is Private Dix, a group of
podcasters known for their ability to turn up the humorous
heat on unsolved mystery.

Speaker 25 (01:30:59):
Hello everybody, Richard here from Private Dicks podcast. Thanks for
getting us in on this summertime collab.

Speaker 20 (01:31:04):
We're excited to do it.

Speaker 25 (01:31:05):
What you're getting today is a preview for an upcoming
episode of Private dis which will be airing on July thirty,
first on our feed. It's about El chupa Cabra, the
Puerto Rican goat sucker, or the Texan goat Sucker. So
if you like comedy, you like solving mysteries, if you

(01:31:29):
like having a new guest on the episodes each and
every single episode, and if you can handle it a
little bit of swearing, then.

Speaker 20 (01:31:37):
This podcast is for you.

Speaker 25 (01:31:38):
I bleeped out the swears in this one for the
people who do not like the swears. So I'm thinking
about you. I love you, guys. Okay, So if you
do have time and you want to listen to something new,
something a little different, please just give us a chance
and go subscribe to our feed, download.

Speaker 20 (01:31:56):
A bunch of episodes, and hopefully we're you're a cup
of tea.

Speaker 25 (01:31:59):
Thanks for listen. Here's a little preview of Elchopa Cabra.

Speaker 20 (01:32:06):
Like, yespar for sure in origin. That's a good one
to pick part of it.

Speaker 15 (01:32:10):
Yeah, so it's probably Rick's cousin true my ex wife
and my right.

Speaker 14 (01:32:19):
Is that because you captured her and used her as
a prop in a horror movie?

Speaker 19 (01:32:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 15 (01:32:22):
Real bloodsucker.

Speaker 25 (01:32:24):
Oh yeah, I didn't think I thought I knew what
Elchupicapra was when I first started reading on this, but
like what I thought was it was a Mexican cryptid
that eight goats. Choop of Cobra starts in Puerto Rico,
but there's been reports of Choopacabra in Mexico, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Florida, Texas.

Speaker 20 (01:32:42):
There's even one sighting in China. He's made his way
over to Asia.

Speaker 25 (01:32:46):
All right, let's this episode is hard to do because
it's like so but okay, let's start with the name.
Choopacabra literally means goat sucker in Spanish, so like chupar
means suck and cabra means goat, so it's literally goatsucker.

Speaker 20 (01:33:01):
That's fun, right, goat sucker rocks is ault. It's pretty
good as an insult.

Speaker 25 (01:33:12):
They don't actually like eat goats, what you said, they're vampire,
so they like suck the blood out of goats and
other livestock. Goats, just I don't know, for some reason,
seem to be their favorite meal from all these reports
that are out there, But they've also known to suck
the blood of cats, sheep, rabbits, dogs, chickens, ducks, hogs,
hogsucker hogsucker might have been better than goat sucker. You're

(01:33:36):
probably do.

Speaker 15 (01:33:38):
You think this thing ever goes after roosters?

Speaker 25 (01:33:47):
I say chickens anyways, Honestly, like, man, I had to
look up this chup of copper for hours because it's
so all over the place and the internet doesn't have
that all that much. Like, yes, it has lots, but
it's all over them. So I was like, you know what,
I'm going to read a book on this on someone
who like did some work on some choop of coppra
action and it's book called Tracking the Choop of Cobra

(01:34:08):
by Benjamin Radford from twenty eleven, and uh, it was good.
I enjoyed it a lot because he's a huge skeptic,
so he just went to go. He like he researched
the choop oficabra for five years, running down leads like
all over South America, like all over the world really
and just to like debunk them.

Speaker 20 (01:34:26):
Like I love that.

Speaker 25 (01:34:26):
Like all you're doing, dude, is just ruining these people's
like fun price PC exactly. I can find that hilarious.

Speaker 15 (01:34:32):
This guy's walking around kicking sand castles over this is
what he is. Yeah, because there's so much like it,
Like what is he gonna do, like trying to make
himself happy somehow else?

Speaker 20 (01:34:40):
Like, no, that's that's so much more difficult. Everyone knows
that like way easier to just like bring other people
down to your level.

Speaker 18 (01:34:47):
I love this, dude.

Speaker 20 (01:34:48):
Yeah, it was fun to read, but I did.

Speaker 25 (01:34:51):
Even reading that book, you find out how laughable the
whole choop of Cobra thing is because it's so vastly
the same and so vastly different at the same time.

Speaker 20 (01:34:58):
It's crazy. It is the newest of all the cryptids, which.

Speaker 25 (01:35:01):
I found that was interesting, Like it started nineteen ninety five, really,
so it's Internet age. It's like first thing that's like
grown from the Internet. But like the chup Oficabra, no
one really even has a full blown description for it,
Like there's so many different descriptions.

Speaker 7 (01:35:12):
So wait, hold on one second, you're telling me that
they haven't come up with any other cryptids since nineteen
ninety five.

Speaker 25 (01:35:19):
It was just the first one from the Internet age,
like from ninety five, the newest, Like slender Man's not
really a cryptid, he's really a monster. Like you can't
really think of anything that's been created past, like what
like a like an animal that lives out in the
bush that we haven't seen.

Speaker 16 (01:35:32):
Hmmm, what was it that that mon talk monster thing
that was going around like, I don't know, I had
to be like ten fifteen years ago.

Speaker 20 (01:35:39):
I know, Charuto, but I'm pretty sure that's an oldie.

Speaker 9 (01:35:41):
It's not older than the cheap Oficabre.

Speaker 20 (01:35:43):
I'm looking up right now because I know what you're talking.

Speaker 15 (01:35:45):
About two thousand years lateawl oh, No.

Speaker 20 (01:35:48):
That's from two thousand and eight.

Speaker 15 (01:35:50):
One of the things I found really interesting about the
whole sucking of blood is that in the first wave
in Puerto Rico and not so much once it moved
to different parts of the world. Thing we found when
we were looking at it over coffee was that a
lot of these neck puncture wounds when followed with different
instruments in an autopsy after the fact, the puncture wounds

(01:36:12):
always went to the brain. Yeah, So whatever it was
that was going into the neck, the assumption was they
were long enough where they were also puncturing the brains
like it was always directed. They would follow these puncture wounds,
and they was always directed. So it's just weird. That's
the first account of the first hundred in Puerto Rico,

(01:36:32):
but then it changes.

Speaker 25 (01:36:33):
But okay, let's I will talk about the autopsies later,
Like no one's ever actually done an autopsy on it,
and if they have, Benjamin Radford did a terrible job
because that's all he wanted was to go. He wanted
to find one, honestly, but like if he never he
never found anybody who actually did ever did an autopsy
on one of these things. They just say it sucked
out dry blood, and we'll talk about that later. But like,
I love this guy. But the chupicapra, even in early times,

(01:36:56):
was described like ten different ways, and then now it's
like described like, hey, here's the fun ways.

Speaker 20 (01:37:00):
This is how it has been described.

Speaker 25 (01:37:01):
Okay, been described, been described by people who've actually said
they've found a dead choop ofcabra too, So let's let's
keep that in mind. This thing's been caught or atlasa
carcass has been found of a choop of copra allegedly.

Speaker 20 (01:37:13):
So here's the thing.

Speaker 25 (01:37:14):
The ways it has been described gray skinned, but also
Harry could have scales like some sort of lizard. Chupa
sometimes changes its color like a chameleon. Also saw it
was three feet tall or five feet tall or four
feet tall. It has a huge nose, or it doesn't
have a nose at all, just two nostrils. It walked
like a monkey or a kangaroo or a dog, or.

Speaker 14 (01:37:37):
I don't appreciate this because this does sound like some
of the dates have been on.

Speaker 20 (01:37:43):
Oh, this one's gonna sound like your current wife. I'm
just kidding. Wow, Okay, take that misty.

Speaker 25 (01:37:50):
And it says that spikes run down its back, or
it has feathers running down its back, or it's a
mixture of spikes and feathers running down its back. It's
got long with giant claws, or like short limbs with
giant claws.

Speaker 20 (01:38:04):
Or like their toes are.

Speaker 25 (01:38:06):
Webbed, or like they're not webbed, but like they have
webbed arms, so they kind of glide like a flying squirrel,
but also not that because they could have wings. Sometimes
they're bat wings, but like sometimes they're just like straight
up feathered wings, whatever wings you want.

Speaker 20 (01:38:25):
They usually have.

Speaker 25 (01:38:26):
Its mouth has two giant protruding fangs. That's the only
thing that's usually the same in anything. Eyes were in
the front of its face or the side of its
face or near the mouth on the base of its face, lids,
eyelids sometimes sometimes not. Eyes were blood red sometimes also
sometimes orange yellow, sometimes not even a weird color at all,

(01:38:48):
they're just normal colors. Sometimes this is another thing you
said earlier. Sometimes there's even a description of the creature
that it has like basic language skills. So like, I'm
not gonna tell you ever encounter for tubic because it's
from so many, but I'm gonna tell you this one.
Apparently there was a witness who locked eyes with the
creature and said, if you're a cheop of cabra, you're

(01:39:09):
a pretty sorry excuse for a creature.

Speaker 20 (01:39:11):
But it was in Spanish because it was Mexico when
this happened. And then the choop.

Speaker 25 (01:39:15):
Ofcabra turned to her and replied, hendejo, So it swears
that people. Okay, not even the funniest one.

Speaker 18 (01:39:22):
What does that mean?

Speaker 25 (01:39:23):
It means, that's all I think, pandeo pretty sure pendejo. Anyways,
that's not even the funniest one. One account, the cheop
of Cabra said that some farmers like, you know what
aids comes from choop of cabras because they fucked the cows.

Speaker 20 (01:39:37):
You know what I mean? They fucked my cows, and
then that's how AIDS came about.

Speaker 6 (01:39:41):
Makes sense.

Speaker 20 (01:39:44):
The cow. This is another one.

Speaker 15 (01:39:46):
If you're know, no reason should any of you smell
my dick right now.

Speaker 20 (01:39:52):
There's another story, and this reported in a newspaper that
the Chewbacca abducted a Chewbacca, the cheop of Cabra, Schup
of Cabra abducted a little girl, tattooed a series of
letters and numbers on her forearm, and founded very german,
dropped the little girl off and then escaped. I don't know,

(01:40:13):
I don't know. Got a tattoo gun now too. Never
captured that one.

Speaker 25 (01:40:18):
Like I said, the only thing that's the same in
any of these like as they go, like some of
them are similar, but they just keep.

Speaker 20 (01:40:23):
Going all over the map.

Speaker 25 (01:40:23):
It gets crazy. The only thing that's similar is the
big long teeth that you're saying, big long sharp canines.

Speaker 6 (01:40:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 16 (01:40:29):
I just did a Google image search.

Speaker 12 (01:40:32):
It's been a while since I've seen a cheap of
Cobra depiction.

Speaker 15 (01:40:35):
And I will say, across the board, there is a
zero sense of consistency, and yeah.

Speaker 20 (01:40:41):
It's crazy, right.

Speaker 15 (01:40:42):
The consistency is only if there's one thing that's consistent
is that all of the reports of anything that was
bipedal with no tail things looked at as being a
kangaroo or quite possibly a monkey or something. Those sightings
were all in and around Puerto Rico, where where it
seems and what is the city where it started. It
starts with an ambum I forget now.

Speaker 18 (01:41:03):
We looked at it Mount choop of cabra.

Speaker 20 (01:41:07):
Yeah, that would be as good as Boca.

Speaker 15 (01:41:10):
Yeah, okay, so this place anything in and around there,
it's similar in what the descriptions was, and everything we
saw suggested that once it left from that part of
the world, this is where it became more of like
a dog like thing, you.

Speaker 20 (01:41:24):
Know, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 25 (01:41:25):
And that's kind of what's fun about this is that
it like it's so confusing, and it's still captured people's
imagination for a long time.

Speaker 20 (01:41:33):
It's still around today.

Speaker 25 (01:41:34):
What I did find out is there's two different kind
of chop of cabra, and that's what you're trying to
say right now. So there's the original choop of cabra,
which they call the Puerto Rican choop of cabra, and
then there's the choop of cabra that it turned into,
which they're calling the text in choop of Cabra. Similar
in a lot of ways, but different in a lot
of different ways as well. So let's just go from
the beginning and then we'll work our way into like

(01:41:55):
how this moved around. So, like you said, starting Puerto Rico,
a lot of accounts first place the attacks of the
Tchupicabra and a small town of Mocha, Puerto Rico, nineteen
seventy five during the months of February March that year,
some unknown beasts that attacked and killed some animals around
various farms over one hundred and one night.

Speaker 17 (01:42:14):
At some point, I just watched Private Dixon and I
thank god Jay's deflins.

Speaker 20 (01:42:20):
What come on?

Speaker 1 (01:42:24):
And that wraps up the first segment of our series
Hot Pursuit. We hope these stories have not only captivated you,
but also inspired you to think more deeply about each case.
Justice is a pursuit that never truly ends, and sometimes
it needs a little help from the public to keep
that fire burning.

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):
A huge thank you to all the podcasters who contributed
to this collaborative effort. Your passion and dedication to uncovering
the truth and telling these important stories is what makes
the true crime community so powerful.

Speaker 15 (01:42:55):
Member.

Speaker 1 (01:42:55):
You can always find more information on these cases in
our show notes. Make sure you subscribe to the podcasters
you enjoy so you never miss.

Speaker 2 (01:43:02):
A new episode, and if you have any tips or
information about the cases discussed, don't hesitate to reach out
to the appropriate authorities. Together, we can help bring justice
to those who need it most in the hot pursuit
of the truth. We're all in this together.

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