Balancing Urban & Rural Policy in California Government | Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes, Simi Valley - Meyerside Chats: Government, Policy & Civility

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Meyer (00:01):
Hey everyone, and thank you for joining another
Meyerside Chats.
I am thrilled to be here todaywith a super exciting guest.
Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes ofSimi Valley, California.
His journey to public service isrooted in deep commitment to the
community and a diverseprofessional background.

(00:21):
That spans the technology andcoffee industries His
professional career began in thehigh tech sector, working with
prominent companies like IBM and9X.
This path eventually led him toLA in 1991.
In 96, he transitioned from thetech world to follow his passion
in the coffee industry, foundingRocky Roaster, a coffee roasting

(00:42):
and wholesale business in CanogaPark, California.
He successfully operated thisbusiness until 2010 when he sold
it and moved his family to SimiValley.
Currently, he owns and operatesInternational Coffee Consulting.
A business that has taken himaround the globe to improve
coffee supply chains and fosterrelationships between producers

(01:03):
and consumers.
His work in this field is guidedby the principle of
compassionate capitalism, aimingto enhance the quality of coffee
while improving the lives ofthose who produce it.
He's been a member of of RotaryInternational for over 20 years
and actively supports localnonprofits in Simi Valley Rocky
focuses on maintaining.
The city's high quality of life,advocating for sustainable

(01:24):
development and ensuring SimiValley remains a safe, thriving
community for its residents.
Sir, it's an honor to have youhere today.
Thank you.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes (01:33):
No, be honest.
Totally.
Did AI write that?
Because I'd vote for that guy.

Evan Meyer (01:40):
The honest answer?
A little.

Awesome.

Evan Meyer (01:46):
It's pretty good though.
Well, and it's, it was very, itwas very honed with, with
information I already found.

Right.
Excellent.
Well, that's pretty good.
It's great to be on yourpodcast.
I'm excited to see what the nexthour holds.
So

Evan Meyer (02:02):
Yeah, we're going to have some fun today.
I'm excited to pick your brainand learn more about your
experience, how you got here.
Your entrepreneurial way ofthinking.
And, and surely for me that'svery relatable when it comes to
working in government.
So, tell me a little bit aboutcompassionate capitalism and,

(02:22):
and what that means to you.

in that AI generated thing, there was
another line, which is and it'sactually a core tenant of the
Coffee Quality Institute, whichI teach their curriculum around
the world.
And it's, if you improve thequality of coffee, you can
improve the lives of people thatproduce that coffee.
So, what we get to do is help.
Coffee producing countries allaround the world and coffee

(02:45):
producing countries are not themost financially sound
countries.
I think the term third world isbecoming a little outdated, but
poverty stricken countries andone way to handle poverty,
certain countries is going tothrow a whole bunch of money
that's never worked ever.
But what we can do is improvethe quality of the things that
they are producing and selling.

(03:05):
And if we can do that, they willget more money for the things
that they produce and sell.
And that's compassionatecapitalism.
Getting there giving education,giving skill sets, so that It's
the hand up and then they canget their their move their way
out of poverty.
And I, I can honestly say that Ihave been able to change
villages and there is nothingmore humbling and gratifying and

(03:30):
that I'm more grateful for thanthe opportunity to get to go and
do that, to affect lives.
And it's not a ton of knowledge.
It's just a little bit.
And it just, it goes so far.
And so that's compassionatecapitalism, teaching people to
better themselves, to produce aproduct or, or get in the system
so that they can improve theirlives.

Evan Meyer (03:51):
I love that.
It's, it's a beautiful way oflooking at why you're doing what
you're doing and how to do itwell, and how to create good
value.
And at the same time, you know,have a, have a, have an
important mission behind it.
I think it's so important.
And I know this is this hastaken you all around the world,
right?

Yeah.
And, and there's a little bitof, if you will, redistribution
of wealth going on.
I teach this class in coffeeproducing countries where they
can't afford my services.
And so that's generally a, agive back.
But then I go to first worldcountries that consume coffee
and I teach the exact same classat top dollar and make all of
the money that I need to makefor, to, for myself to live and

(04:35):
be able to give back.
And so I'm, I'm taking fromthose people and charging them
for the skills and servicesbecause they can afford it and
they want to pay for it.
And then I go to the the othercountries and give that service
away where they want theservice, but they can't afford
it.
And that is another example ofcompassionate capitalism,

(04:55):
figuring out how to sustainablybe able to give the services and
needs to the people that needthem by producing a product or
creating a product that issellable.

Evan Meyer (05:08):
Yeah.
How how how is this going tothese countries and experiencing
their way of life and andworking with them directly?
Well, first, can you give me afew of the places that you've
gone to?
But but more importantly, howhas understanding those cultures
shaped how you think about whatyou do day to day, your
perspectives and as a leader ingovernment?

(05:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where have

lecture, he didn't speak in English and I
barely spoke Spanish, but Iasked him, Hey, like, Hey, where
can I get a machete like that?
And he looked at me like, that'sthe dumbest question I've ever
heard.
But hardware store in town, 20bucks.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Where can I get a machete likethat one that's been used in the
coffee fields of El Salvadorthat I can take back to my
coffee shop, hand it to mycustomers, explain where I have

(06:11):
been, and they will now touchthe earth in El Salvador through
this machete and we'll sell somuch more El Salvador coffee.
Being a very wise capitalisthimself, he went bucks and I got
his, his dinged up machete usedin the coffee fields of El
Salvador.

(06:31):
The thing about going to thesecountries is you actually
connect, you touch earth wherethey are.
And and the basket is fromMyanmar.
The placards are from RwandaKenya, Indonesia.
I, I get to travel these exoticlands and, and meet people,

(06:52):
scratch the earth with them,sometimes sleep on dirt floors.
And that is, that is the most,the best bonding you can do with
someone.
And they know that I'm there notfor personal gain, but to see if
I can help.
And how it affects my, mypolitics.
Here's, here's one of the truthsthat I've brought back, from

(07:16):
traveling.
I think I've hit 20 countriesnow in the world, big cities
everywhere are big citiesanywhere.
They have very similar problemsof density and growth and
traffic and transport and,education and poverty and,
places anywhere are rural placeseverywhere, right?
So, the people that scratch theearth, they have a simpler

(07:37):
mindset.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna love myGod.
I'm going to love my family.
I want to provide enough foodand as long as we're safe, I'm
good.
I don't actually care whathappens in politics.
And when you actually thinkabout our country, if you've got
L.
A.
In New York and then everythingin between, we have two sets of
problems in the world.
We have the rural people thatjust like, just leave me alone.
Let me be in my life.

(07:58):
And we have the large citiesthat have predominance of the
issues and problems because theyhave the predominance of the
people that are in them.
And so, the toughest thing forme is to reconcile trying to
solve for the cities without.
overpowering the rural.
And and that's that that's aproblem in L.

(08:21):
A.
L.
A.
Slash California Central Valleyare two different things.
a problem for our country.
The big cities on the coast andthe flyovers in the middle.
So, it really helped open myeyes that that there are city
problems and rural problems asopposed to, well, they're also
government problems, butcommunists versus democracies.

(08:42):
Or constitutional republics, butthat that's been opening my eyes
and it does affect how I thinkabout working on things in Simi
Valley.
Uh, I'm rambling a little bit,but Simi Valley, the biggest
enemy that we have is Sacramentotrying to solve problems for the
entire state with one law wherethat problem is really kind of a

(09:05):
city problem.
We're a suburb, we're not rural,we're not density city, we're a
suburb and our, our problems aredifferent to solve.

Evan Meyer (09:13):
So, where has that been most pressing for Simi
Valley

Yeah, housing.
It's all.
So the way that Sacramento isdealing with the homelessness
and housing problem is justbuild more houses and everything
will be okay.
Except for the fact that that'sdemonstrably a false way to to
solve that problem.
They then force density,solutions.

(09:38):
might work in large cities whereyou have 10 stories of living
and two or three stories ofcommerce and then a transit hub
down below because you have thatdensity of people and you need
to do that.
doesn't work or appeal to SimiValley.
Simi Valley, we are more singlefamily homes, we are spread out,

(09:58):
we're low, we don't like thingsover three stories, but we can
still find ways to createhousing in a responsible way to
get density where density fits.
But Sacramento doesn't let us dothat.
They don't, they've taken pieceby piece, they've taken control
over our zoning away so that wecan't build a plan and this is

(10:21):
how housing is going to work inour city.
it's super frustrating and Ispent a lot of my time now
against the, the the laws thathave already been passed or in
this recent season, the lawsthat are about to be passed and
signed by the governor, becausesome of them are just stripping
more of those rights andabilities for the city to solve

(10:42):
their own problems.

Evan Meyer (10:46):
you seen success in an alternative solution, or
would you propose that could besuccessful?

So I'm going to do, going to answer
with success and failure.
And, and why each one is asuccess and failure.
start with the failure.
Cause then it'll help me tellyou why success is so good.
The failure is a project we callthe Tapo Alamo apartment
complex.
It was a project that was forcedupon the city.
And it was forced because, lawssay that if you make so many of

(11:19):
your units affordable, then youget bonuses.
It can be a parking bonus.
You have more dense parking.
It can be a height bonus.
You can go as high as you want.
You can be a density bonus.
You can put more units, per, peracre than than other.
Things in the city might be andthe city can't say no.

(11:40):
this developer came in and said,we want to do this.
They went to the neighborhoodcouncil, neighborhood council
said, that's not us.
Then they said, well, fine.
They went to PlanningCommission.
Planning Commission said, no, wedon't like this project.
Came to City Council.
We said, no, we don't like thisproject.
And they said, yeah, well, weget to do it anyway.
So, they went to build and westopped them.

(12:00):
We used the city.
And this is just before I cameon.
And then, the developer says,that's fine.
I'm gonna sue the city.
before the ruling came down,Judge gave us some letters that
said, So, here's the thing.
You're gonna lose.
You fight this thing evenfurther, you're going to lose
and it's going to cost you amillion bucks to fight it.

(12:21):
if it was just a million bucks,I might have fought it.
If you lose, which you probablywill, because it's written in
law then you're going to loseall of your zoning rights in
Simi Valley.
The state takes over all zoning.
not only do you lose the money,you lose any ability to control
housing.
So, very reluctantly, the citycouncil, just before I came on,

(12:43):
had to vote yes.
I was sitting in the audienceand I was I was ticked.
I said, this is ridiculous andwe shouldn't be doing it, but
there was so I call that the badThere's not enough parking.
It went to four stories.
The density is too high.
It's going to create problemswith the neighbors and more
congestion on the roads.

(13:03):
project.
Here's a good project.
Another developer is developing280 units, almost the exact same
number of units, of apartmentson the Tapo Street corridor.
And they own the entire swath ofland that includes a Walmart
several other retail.
They're going to half of theretail and put in 280 units.

(13:26):
They took the, the density bonusbecause they're putting in
affordable.
And they got a fourth story, butthey it back.
So from the street, you won'teven be able to see the fourth
story.
residents behind went, this isgonna suck.
It's gonna look like a giantwall.
We hate it.
And the developers went, I hearyou.
And they redesigned the exteriorwall to the and did an elevation

(13:49):
of it.
And the residents went, that'scool.
I actually like that better thanwhat I look at now.
So they listened, work with,they put more parking than they
were required to put in becausethey knew that they would get
better tenants.
They have retail on the firstfloor so you can have live
above, you know, loft above andstore below for those people
that want to live and work intheir same shop.

(14:11):
It's walking distance to,

Evan Meyer (14:13):
part

it is on a major transit hub transit way.
They put the right project inthe right place and worked with
the city.
Didn't take maximum bonuses, butfigured out a way that they can
make money on the project.
And, We love that.
So we got our density.
We got

Evan Meyer (14:30):
of the

the

Evan Meyer (14:30):
It's

place.

Evan Meyer (14:31):
part of the It's part of the It's part of the

monolith box.
Think that that's the right wayto go about building density
into the city.

Evan Meyer (14:44):
So have you, have you replicated a version of that
since?

There's been one other project proposed
that wasn't retail oriented, butproximity close to retail and
transit.
And that was just allowed onErringer.
Neither one of these projectshave been built, but one other
thing that we were able to dowith some.
For lack of a better term,leftover federal money that we
are supposed to use for housing.
We given the interest rates areso high, we gave a bridge loan

(15:11):
of a million dollars to thedeveloper of this other
apartment complex to get themstarted.
They said, if we can bridge thisfinancing, we'll go and we know
we need to get something built.
So they'll actually startbuilding.
other thing that's reallyfrustrating is a city because we
don't build anything.
We just allow it to be built.
Rates where they are and supplycosts what they are.

(15:32):
No one's building.
They have the right to build.
Just no one's doing it.
And that's super.
We've been entitled hundreds andhundreds on thousands of units.
of, of housing and they're notbeing built.
So that's frustrating, but

Evan Meyer (15:49):
Sorry, explain a little bit why they're, why
they're not being built?

yeah.
So, in California you have thenormal things that slow down
building like CEQA and, andrules and regulations just make
it long.
Given the interest rates rightnow, developers aren't just
coming up with a hundred milliondollars to put in, they're
borrowing that money.
And if they're borrowing thatmoney at.

(16:12):
7 percent as opposed to 3%.
puts a huge dent in figuring outthe profitability of that
project.
So they're more likely to see ifinterest rates come down in the
near future so that they canmake them.
I mean,

Evan Meyer (16:26):
Yep.

of a million boxes is a chunk of
change and they've got to Turn aprofit on these units.
So, that generally delays them.
There was, it's eased now, butthere was the whole supply chain
problem where I think if youremember when we were in the
midst of that plywood was liketimes the cost that plywood was
a few months

Evan Meyer (16:45):
Mm hmm.

That

Evan Meyer (16:46):
I remember that.

its way back down.
So there's still elevated costs,but they're more towards
reasonable and interest ratesare on their way down.
And hopefully the, you know, thefed will do what they need to
do.
And

Evan Meyer (17:00):
So it's economic, it's economically not motivating
at the moment.

That's correct.
I mean, compassionatecapitalism.
I want you to build a house.
Yeah, but I'm not gonna do it ifI lose money.
Okay, let's see if we can comeup with a thing.
And for for the city, loaningthat 1, 000, 000 for less than
15 years will get that paidback.
We can loan it to somebody else.
That will actually get them tostart now instead of continue to

(17:26):
wait.
So think that was a success forthe city to, to Push some
housing forward.

Evan Meyer (17:32):
Do you think you're, the way that, that you're
thinking about this now isuseful for a lot of the smaller
cities?
or more rural areas

Yeah.
So, so I think every city shouldbe allowed to do what they're
going to do.
And here's, here's a problemwith government and maybe this
is a deeper philosophicalproblem with government

Evan Meyer (18:01):
Let's get into it.

see a problem and they go, I'm going
to fix this problem.
And they come up with a new rulefor everyone, right?
For every law there wassomething that caused that to be
a law.
So let's assume of the 482cities in California that, 10

(18:25):
percent of them are going to berun poorly by bad city man city
councils that are going to sayit's my little kingdom here and
I'm going to do whatever I wantand I'm going to block all
things.
So 10 percent bad, And 90percent of people trying to do
what's right for their communityand grow responsibly.
And that's, that's what it isabout grow responsibly.

(18:46):
will look at the 10 percent andgo, we need to solve that
problem.
There's bad actors out there andwe know better.
And so they create a law thatcovers all 100 percent of
cities.
And why, why are we under thisrule?
Now we were doing just fine andcreating housing and, and
meeting the needs of our people.
We understand that we're aValley.
that doesn't have any more floorspace to grow.

(19:09):
We can only infill.
We don't have a lot morecommerce that can come here for
people to work at.
So if we keep adding people,they're gonna have to drive out
of the valley in order to getwork.
We understand our situations.
Just let us be.
If Sacramento would get out ofthe way, cities would build
housing, and 90 percent of thepeople would be responsible, and
then 10 percent go crack down onthem.

(19:31):
right?
Get them straight, but let therest do their thing.
Instead, they just create lawsto get in the way

Evan Meyer (19:39):
Why do you feel that there's that kind of like us and
them from where, yeah, rightthere.
The goal is to representeverybody successfully, ideally,
but where is that coming from?

it's mind boggling that people of many of
the representatives in theassembly and so on came from
city councils then move up intoSacramento and I don't do their
job.
But from my perspective, itlooks like they've lost their
minds.
that there's some other wheelingand dealing that has to be going
on to get what they want.

(20:14):
So here's, here's what I thinkthe true problem is currently,
because other states aren't likethis.
Other states have a more dividedgovernment, and therefore they
actually have to talk with eachother, work on things, and come
up with responsible laws.
We have a super majority inSacramento, and you can throw

(20:35):
enough stuff at the wall,something's gonna stick, and may
not have been discussed orthought out or whatever.
And I don't see counterbalanceto a lot of the stuff that
that's coming out.
So cities like us have to raiseour hands and scream, but small
cities don't work.
So we band together with Leagueof Cities and Southern

(20:56):
California of Governments and wetry and join with other groups
to go give us local control.
And that just doesn't seem tohappen.
So until we get back to a lessthan super majority, Of one
party in Sacramento, this isgoing to continue.
And by the way, I'm notadvocating for a supermajority
the other way either.

(21:17):
That would just be the problemin reverse.

Evan Meyer (21:20):
Right.

care for some of the outcomes more
because I'm from the minorityside in Sacramento, but having a
supermajority sucks.
In, in federal, when we have TheHouse, the Senate and the
president all under party.
That makes me extremely nervous.
I like having it very, veryclose in the houses.

(21:43):
So you actually still have totalk to each other to get
something done.
Otherwise it can be stopped inSacramento.
We can't stop stupid.

Evan Meyer (21:53):
Yeah.
It, it seems that It doesn'tmatter which side would have a
supermajority when you, when youlose diversity of thought,

Correct.
There, that's it.
Perfect.

Evan Meyer (22:09):
And we, we talk about diversity in all sorts of
ways in California.

Mm hmm.

Evan Meyer (22:15):
Except, except the one, the one that sometimes gets
missed, maybe diversity ofthought when it comes to, for
example, a super majority,right?
Like it's, it's interesting thatthat's not considered.
Not necessarily that it shouldbe some sort of but like that it
would be an importantconsideration for how to manage

(22:39):
an institution or anorganization or a state and say,
do we have the right board?
Of directors or does everyone onthe board tend to think one way
right like then you'd say wellWe need to diversify our board.
So

what elections are for.
I'm not a hundred percent surewhy it doesn't end up being
more.
There is other than the populacehas actually spoken and that
represents of California.
I don't really think it does.
I think it's, it's stilted, butyeah, that's what elections are
for here.
Here's where I think we are as acountry, maybe a little bit

(23:15):
different California, but Ithink that we've got 10 percent
wingdings on the right.
We got 10 percent wingdings onthe left and the rest of us
live, the 80 percent of us livein the middle and, and.
diversity of thought within themiddle.
It's a great thing.
Just having the two louds oneither end yelling at each
other.
That doesn't actually solveanything either.

(23:35):
That the extremes I'm both in.
So if we could just get the 80percent elected, we would have
that diversity of thought.
Even if it was of a singleparty, there's a

Evan Meyer (23:45):
Sure

of politicians up there that just
produce massively Extreme billsand thank God, some of them get
killed, but they're doing itjust for, for show.
But,

Evan Meyer (23:58):
Because and you know things those things are pr
worthy, you know at some pointmoney and pr are are part of the
equation where it's like, willthat get attention?
And that ends up often fittinginto that 10 percent you're
talking about okay, well then,then, and the world tends to
think that the whole state isjust in these extremes where

(24:20):
it's not, you're just gettingthrown that in your algorithm
because you click on it fasterand they make money on it.
So it's like.
And most people seem to, like,when I bring that up to people,
they seem to understand thealgorithm that they're being
fed, you know, in an echochamber that the extreme
viewpoints take dominate theengagement portion of the

(24:42):
algorithm.
And that's why you're seeing it.
You're not seeing the normalperson, like actually.
Everything's okay.
I got a little issue here, alittle issue there.
Everything extreme issue.
We have to solve the crisis.
And well, look, you've, you've,you've run for office.
So how is it different in howyou've run, right?
And how you've related to peopleto get their vote versus we'll

(25:05):
call it versus the problem.

So it's interesting.
Some inside baseball andpolitics then on there's two
jobs for every elected person,getting elected, being elected.
And I know a whole bunch ofpeople that have just be
outstanding in the position, butthey don't have a bone in their
body to be able to figure outhow to get elected.

(25:29):
And.
If if our if our presidentialelection isn't a case study in
throw the red meat to your baseso that you will rally them to
vote.
I don't know what is for me.
I went about it a little bitdifferently.
I said, Hey, I want to talk toeverybody because.

(25:54):
I think I'm an approachableperson, and I think that I
willingly take questions andanswer questions, and it may not
be the answer you want to hear,but at least you know where I
am, and you have the opportunityto change my mind when running
for office.
One of the strategies is knockon every door in your district.
And since seeing Valley went todistricting, which is a whole
another stupid conversation, itjust doesn't work here.

(26:17):
The districts are small.
And I was able to, myself and myteam, knock on every door, but
I, I looked at the list likethis, we get a list of who, what
the voters are in the House,number of Republicans, number of
Democrats, number ofIndependents, and I say, all the
people that are high propensityvoters to me, I let the team go
and talk to them, they wereprobably going to say yes
anyway, and I took all of theprecincts that had the most

(26:41):
people that are least likely tovote for me, and I went and
knocked on their doors.
And it is amazing when you'renot behind the keyboard and you
actually talk to someone face toface, how they go, huh,
reasonable.
You actually listen to me.
You talk to me.
So politics, if we can get outfrom behind the keyboards and

(27:03):
actually meet each other, moretown halls, that sort of thing,
then will become better.
It will be returned to somesense of civility.
And I went to my worst criticshomes.
said, right, what do you want tosay here to my face?
Not here on the keyboard.
And things got more civil.

Evan Meyer (27:23):
Well, let me bring it full circle.
If we would just have a coffeewith somebody.
You probably realize how muchyou have in common before you
start getting into where youdisagree about exactly, exactly.
If you would just get out in thefield with a machete, head out,
meet some strangers, get out tothe jungle,

Walk in somebody's shoes.
Yeah, and that's it.
I, of the skill sets that I haveone is I can align.
I can find something with everysingle person that we can find
common ground on.
And we start there and then wehave our conversation.

(28:03):
you know, where did you go toschool?
How many kids do you have?
Just get something where we canagree that this is a commonality
between us.
Once we have that, then the restis a conversation.

Evan Meyer (28:16):
And you have way more in common with people as
humans than we do that wedisagree with.
Somehow, somehow it's like, itseems like what happens is you
watch, some news channel and youlisten to the way they speak.
About people and issues.
And it's so attacking all thetime.

(28:38):
It's so attacking, even, I mean,you could just say, I don't
agree and not attack,

Yeah,

Evan Meyer (28:42):
but the attacking is what gets clicks and makes money
and people know that, but you'dthink that people could get past
that and say, oh, okay.
Well, all I'm doing right now isgetting emotionally invested in
this.
They're, they're, they're doingthat intentionally.
And just because this personthinks, even so, if I could look

(29:04):
past that, just because thisperson thinks differently than
me doesn't automatically meanthat I should ascribe every set
of terrible values that they mayhave to that person and think
that that, right?
You're hearing one instance in achopped up story with layers of
filters and cognitive biases andstorytelling and agendas, right?

(29:25):
Like so, so much.
And then you think you couldsay, well, I don't necessarily
have to say that.
That's like.
That person's miserable becausethey think that way about one
thing.
I don't know what room they'resitting in when they had the
original conversation before itgot to me.
They're not telling meeverything.
Right.

right.
One of the things that thatlends to that is this whole
litmus test thing, If there'sone topic that we disagree on,
then I can't talk to youanymore, right?
Because you're not on my side.
Like, really?
If we agree about 99 percent ofthe things out of 100 topics,
we're good on 99, but that one,

Evan Meyer (30:01):
Yeah.

And it's

Evan Meyer (30:03):
Yeah.
There's no turning back on thatone.
There's no turning back.
The biggest one I've found tendsto be on abortion.
Where if you, if you take thealternative position, the other
side will say, I can't even, IIt doesn't matter what the
president does, thinks, or, orhow they act.
If you vote yes or you vote no,I'm voting for the other person.

(30:23):
Right?
And

I wish

Evan Meyer (30:26):
an interesting thought.
That just shows the single issuevoter mentality so often.
Right?

I wish the presidency was so simple that it
only had to deal with one thingthere done.
And, and now you can make yourdecision on the vote on that, on
that person.

Evan Meyer (30:40):
Right.

uh, you've got to look at the entire slate
of capabilities to be able todeal with an amazing amount of
so, Being president has to bethe most mind boggling job on
the face of the planet.
When you think about, okay, inone day, I got to fly overseas
and I got to negotiate tradedeals with adversaries.

(31:02):
And then I got to go to theMiddle East and I've got to try
and figure out how I can getpeople to shake hands and talk
to each other instead of shootat each other and blow each
other up.
then I've got, it's, one hasthat skillset going in.
No one has the completion.
They might have one area.
Like Trump businessman, right?
He, I actually liked the waythat he handles trade.

(31:25):
Great.
The other skill sets, not his,you know, main thing that he did
his whole life.
So, it finding someone that hasthat balance diversity of
everything.
Say that I'm a jack of alltrades and a master of one.
I'm good at coffee and, and therest of it is, I'm figuring it
out as I go.
I just happen to be a prettyquick learn and I read staff

(31:48):
reports.
But it's a, it's a, it's a toughjob being even the city level.
It's a tough job trying tofigure out all the things and do
the right thing.
And not everybody's happy withyou.

Evan Meyer (31:58):
That's part of leadership, right?
Is being willing to be unlikethem.
Um, having what it takes to dowhat you believe is right in the
face of, I mean, I always usethe Thanos example.
I, Thanos is, do you know whatI'm talking about?
This is like the reason why Ithought that was so, important
for those listening who don'tknow the Thanos, it's from the

(32:21):
Avenger, from the Avengers.
Two movie series end of end ofdays.
I forget, I forget the name ofthe thing.
But Thanos is such asignificant, he's one of my
favorite villains because Ithink he, the comment, the, the
social commentary on history isso important where it's just,
that's classic.
One, person's villain is anotherperson's hero in some eyes, like

(32:43):
Mao Zedong was one of those.
Right.
Where he's like, okay, morepeople lost their lives under
his leadership, arguably thanany other leader ever, something
like a hundred million, I think,is the estimate or something.
I mean, some crazy number oflike, you know, and here he is
into some people think that ifyou, when you look past human

(33:06):
life,

So that stuff,

Evan Meyer (33:09):
you can you can bring China to to be a, a global
leader.
And that's what it took.
Thanos, similarly, the worldwill be peaceful if I could just
get rid of half the people.
I mean, it's a creep.
Yeah.

(33:30):
It's so important.
I think that was such animportant movie for that, for
just for the, to watch thatcharacter.

Let's talk about China for a second.
you brought up, I get this yearI was scheduled to go to China
nine different times and weended up canceling some classes.
So I'll still probably make itthere about six times this year.
over the past few years, I'vedone a lot of traveling back and
forth.
And it is fascinating to meconversations with my friends

(33:59):
there about the differences inour governments.
Gosh, now that I'm saying thisout loud on a podcast and I'm
leaving for China in like, 10days.
Hmm.
Well, I'll say it anyway.
It's, it's just fascinating thateverything about your life.
Every piece of information is,is the right of the government
to have, and they have it.

(34:20):
They, they transact everythingon about three apps on their
phone.
almost, it's becoming nearcashless society because they
transact on WeChat.
They do their, we text liketheir Facebook.
Didi is their Uber and Alibabais their Amazon and, and they
transact everything on theirphones and stuff shows up not in

(34:40):
days, but in hours Shanghaianyway.
And it's, it is fascinating, butthere's cameras across the
streets.
There's cameras across thesidewalk doing facial
recognition and, and and see, Iasked my friends, does that
bother you to have every bit ofyour life?
by the government and they went,no, that's what keeps us safe.

(35:05):
Explain that.
So, well, Rocky, if I were goingto steal your wallet.
One, they probably know I wasgoing to steal it in the first
place, but two, by the time Igot home, the police would be
there because they could trackme and the wallet all the way
back home, and that's why wedon't steal anything.
And it hit me that all of thepeople that I'm talking to are
under 65 years old, and sothey've never known anything

(35:30):
other than the government havingcontrol over your life.
On the opposite end, capitalismis alive and well in China to an
extent.
capitalism.
And as soon as you becomeawesome at what you're doing,
all of a sudden you get a newpartner.
And the new partner says hi, I'mthe government.

(35:50):
I'm here to help.
And they get to dictate how muchyou grow and who you get to grow
with and that sort of thing.
So it's interesting.
And most of the capitalists comefrom being trained outside of
China and then come back to runtheir businesses, taking
advantage of a very low laborcost in their

Evan Meyer (36:08):
Sure.
Well, essentially, there's tradeoffs, right, with each style and
the things that we value here.
certain freedoms, limitedregulation, freedom of speech,
you know, things that are, that,that will say that America holds
as its highest, most importantvalues are, are not necessarily

(36:30):
things that they're maybe evenraised with there, that they
would even consider that,because when it comes to, say,
safety, as you just mentioned,Well, maybe I'll give up some
speech and privacy and, andfreedoms if it means that cops
are X times more effective whenthat happens.

(36:50):
And, and I'm not defending it,but I can, you know, this is a
matter of thinking about whenyou travel, that your way isn't
always the right way all thetime.

That's

Evan Meyer (37:01):
And it's not about China or the government in this
case.
It's just, it's just that we'revery quick.
To say how terrible things areto every, everything else, but
the way we think.
And when it comes down to it,when I was traveling in
countries like Vietnam or Cuba,I found some of the happiest
people

Exactly.

Evan Meyer (37:21):
seen who didn't have, who had a mattress, if at
all on the floor with no windowsor doors.

Exactly.
Difference between city andrural.
I found extremely happy peoplethat had no idea what the
communist party was really evenall about.
When I went out to the cot,there's coffee fields in the
South of China.
And and we just get out with thefarmers.
Well, that stuff is irrelevant.

Evan Meyer (37:46):
Right.

of the conversation though, when I
said, well, about the safety inChina.
And I said, well, In the U.
S.
We at least want to believe wehave a right to privacy.
Now I know that I carry a devicein my pocket all the time that's
listening to me at every momentwaiting to give me information
if I ask for it.
And there's cameras everywhere.
So I want to believe I haveprivacy, I said.

(38:07):
But for safety, I said in the U.
S.
We have this thing called theSecond Amendment.
And if you wanted to steal mywallet, you actually don't know
if I'm packing and and going topull out a gun and shoot you for
trying to steal my wallet.
And that's what that gives usour sense of safety.
And they looked at me like thatis the dumbest thing I've ever
heard in my life.

(38:28):
That's why you have schoolshootings.
That's why you have everything.
And the prism that we lookthrough life with is it's very
interesting.

Evan Meyer (38:36):
Yep.
And, and that's, and that's,

insight.

Evan Meyer (38:39):
That's the perfect example of, of, of a pot, like
something it's very complicated.
We're not, we're not a simplesociety.
We have lots of different peoplefrom everywhere with all sorts
of traumas, historical traumasthat people have dealt with.
We've, we're, we're a meltingpot, a beautiful melting pot
country that comes with, so Ishould say what it doesn't come

(39:04):
with is one size fits allapproaches to things.
It makes it harder.

and yet government thinks that that's
the great way to do it.
We have a one size that fits allsolutions to things.
I'm like, stop it.

Evan Meyer (39:17):
Yeah,

Yeah,

Evan Meyer (39:18):
is, which is interesting that you have that
perspective, given that, youknow, again, like we, the state,
at least, at least vocallycommunicates its level of, of
support for, of diversity in somany different ways, which is
again, a wonderful thing untilit's, I guess, until you're

(39:39):
like, well, how come you're notconsidering this piece of
diversity?

God, we haven't even touched on religion
yet either, but diversity ofreligion in the U.
S.
I think is absolutely one of thecornerstones of why we are
successful, even though we'rebased on Judeo Christian values
and that's sort of enshrined inthroughout the Constitution.
It is the fact that everyone cancome here and bring their

(40:07):
religion with them and worshipthe way they want, and we're
like, that's okay.
No, In all of my travels, Idon't do a lot in Europe, right?
So in a lot of my travels,though, it's very monotheistic
non countries that I go to.
And and I think that there'sjust such a richness to, to

(40:28):
having that diversity ofthought.
from a religious standpoint,too.

Evan Meyer (40:32):
I find religions, the study of religions to be a
fascinating, even justunderstanding why people think
the way they do.
Even if you weren't religious,like the importance of reading
the Bible, forget about thereligion.
If you just look at it as a, as,as, even if, If you said it's a

(40:55):
sliver of truth with a lot ofelaboration that is supposed to
have some sort of meaning to it,

There's

Evan Meyer (41:02):
even if

in there.

Evan Meyer (41:04):
there's, well, you would read it as something
that's been around for so long,like, even if, it's important to
understand perspective.
So that's one perspective.
You don't even have to bereligious, but to not understand
that perspective of why peoplefeel.
I mean, these stories are justthings that we've, we've adopted
into our way of being,especially in Western culture

(41:26):
as, as I should say, it's thefoundations of Western culture.
It's the, it's, it's, it's, itis, it is why we think the way
we do, even if it's wrong oruntrue, the Truth is separate
from narrative and storytellingas the news makes it very clear.

(41:47):
And it's always been that way.
It's like it, it starts fromthere with the Torah through the
Old Testament and into the NewTestament.
but it's important stuff and Ithink that's just, it's a slice
of the pie of knowledge.
That gives people saying, well,why, why would people be
religious in the first place?
Well, if you have to ask thatquestion, you should go and read

(42:08):
and understand.
If you say, I don't understandwhy anyone could vote for Trump,
or I don't understand why anyoneis gonna vote for Kamala, You
should go talk to people andlearn why.

Learn why.
and, and, well, to that one, Idon't think anybody's voting for
anybody.
I think they're voting againstsomebody in this

Evan Meyer (42:29):
Right.

maybe that's I have a quick story,
maybe, I hope it's quick, I hopeit's interesting, about,
diversity of religion.
And, I did a lot of work inIndonesia when I first started
in the coffee training andconsulting.
And one time I got to go on a, Itaught a class in Jakarta, the
big city.
And I said, I really want to seethe coffee fields of Indonesia.

(42:50):
They're the third or fourthlargest coffee producer,
depending on the year.
And I want to go see some ofthis.
So I went, great, fly across theisland of Java to this city.
And Lucianto, who was in myclass, he's a scientist for the.
Indonesia Coffee and CocoaResearch Institute, ICRI, and
he'll meet you, take you toICRI, and then you'll get in the

(43:12):
car, and you'll go up into thevolcano, and you'll see these
coffee fields.
I'm like, awesome! So I getthere, and then I realize I
don't speak any Bahasa, anddoesn't speak any English, but
we speak coffee.
And I also didn't realize thatonce we got through the thing at
the at Ikri, the center, and wegot in the car, it was a five
hour ride out to the volcano.

(43:35):
Like, okay, I got five hours inthe car with a guy who doesn't
speak English.
This is pre Google Translate,and I had a book, the Indonesia
to English Translate.
And we had five hours, so, withthe occasional interruption of
call to prayer, would pull offthe road, they'd go into the gas
station, they'd pray, they'dcome back out, and we would

(43:56):
continue our conversation.
I said, what do you pray for?
It took a while.
What do you pray for when youpray?
had the weirdest answer.
He said, I pray for health of myfamily.
Peace and a little bit ofprosperity.
I'm like, see, there's wherewe're different.
I would never pray for thosethings.
That's so strange and differentthat we'd want that.
And it just, it became a reallybonding moment between he and I,

(44:19):
and not only do we break a lotof bread together but we
actually got to, to share amoment that we even have the
same belief structure under.
Different gods or differentdeities of how you get there.
But it, yeah, it wasinteresting.
It was super

Evan Meyer (44:37):
Wow.
Yeah.
It's amazing how, how complacentwe get as people with everything
we have and everything we thinkall of a sudden you just adapt
immediately and that becomesyour norm.
And you forget that at the most,I think, I think people forget
at the most basic level, we'rethe same.
When you, when you, when yousubtract your, your apartment,

(45:01):
your, your, your first worldapartment with great plumbing
and hot water, unlimited amountsof hot water and toilets that
flush and, and

that goes on when you flick the switch.

Evan Meyer (45:12):
immediately goes on when you flick with cheap light
bulbs that can be replacedimmediately.
you just start to forget that,you start thinking again that
there's like an us and them, andit's just the most basic level.
We're all the we're all thesame.
So let me ask you this.
What needs to be done in orderObviously trust in government

(45:34):
has been eroding devolving asfar as I can tell.
It's

That's a very nice word.
No, it's eroding.
It's yeah.

Evan Meyer (45:45):
eroding

Yeah.
No evolving as, as I think thethe kind of twist on that spin
on the back.

Evan Meyer (45:51):
Devolving.

devolving.
Yes, absolutely.
A

Evan Meyer (45:54):
It's eroding and devolving.

devolving.
Okay.
Got it.

Evan Meyer (45:58):
it's evolving for the worst.
As far as I can tell and it's,it seems to be at the worst it's
ever been.
I've been doing these, trying tounderstand the nature of, I've
started coming from aperspective of people just need
to have some civic humilityabout what they think, why they
think they're right all the timeafter watching the news or

(46:19):
social media, and it doesn'tseem to be happening.
Like people still get deep intheir echo chambers and think
they have all the informationand everyone else who has a
different story is.
An idiot and what needs tohappen in your from your
perspective to create

I think I actually have this answer it
came to me and I'll even tellyou when it came to me.
I got the news feed that theprevious president had an
assassination attempt.
And I went, Oh crap.
turned on the news and I watchedthe replay over and over again
of this, this attemptedassassination of Trump.

(46:57):
And I went, how did we get tothis?
here.
And I also experienced the samething during the riots way back
when I had to drive my car downinto the riot zone because it
didn't didn't fit.
It didn't make sense to me.
And when I got there, It's thesame sense of, of desperation
when words you're when, whenHitler and genocide and

(47:21):
xenophobe and when words nolonger have anywhere to go, you
can't escalate any further thanHitler.
Right?
Right.
And so what's the next logicalconclusion?
Are you going to push somebody?
And then you're going to pushback and, and so we've run out
of places for words to go.
Where's the solution?

(47:42):
The words are coming from theextremes, the 10 percent and the
10 percent on either side.
That's where the words arecoming from.
The 80 percent in the middlehave been silent because they
didn't want to be cancelled bythe 10 percent on either side.
So the solution is the 80percent of us in the middle that
go that stupid and that stupidneed to call out stupid on both

(48:03):
sides.
Not one side or the other needto call out stupid on both
sides.
If media would say, You're nolonger going to be allowed on
our network if you continue thistype of dangerous, hateful
rhetoric because we're not goingto publicize it.
And now it's going to damagetheir ratings because going on,
as you said, the algorithm showsthat every time that someone

(48:26):
screams evil, then go up.
But if the, if we took aresponsibility within ourselves
to call out stupid on bothsides, To call it hostile on
both sides, then we're going toget to a place where the middle
will rise up and no longer fearbeing canceled or yelled at or
screamed at.
But if we don't, then we'regoing to be oppressed by these

(48:49):
extremes as they shoot at eachother right over our heads.
And we're going to get caught inthe, in the, in the crossfire.
So the solution is stand up andgently call out ignorance on
both sides.

Evan Meyer (49:04):
Do you do this as mayor pro tem in Simi Valley?
How do you enact this kind ofthis, this beautiful philosophy?

I will tell you that the extremes are
maybe even less than 10 and 10in Simi Valley.
I would say the majority of thepeople live in the 90 percent of
the middle, and there's five andfive.
absolutely, I do.
We our city council meetings, wewill often get the 5 percent
from one side and in othermeetings where I'm out like the

(49:36):
I'm part of the RepublicanCentral Committee.
And we will get stupid in and Iwill call it out in the middle
of like if you want to keepfailing in in life and moving
people.
Just keep doing what you'redoing.
Keep being loud, extreme,obnoxious and people will keep
treating you the same way andyou will get nothing done.
I call it out there.

(49:58):
It's tough and on the dais,you're not allowed to really
call out a lot of the people,especially if they're citizens.
But they know there's ways ofsaying you're not gonna get what
you want.
And yes, I I feel confidentenough in my, here's two things.
I feel confident enough inmyself and where I stand on

(50:20):
things that I live in that 80percent common sense middle that
I can have the conversations andI know where, where the line of
stupid and sensible lie oneither end.
The other thing is, I actuallydon't care if I get reelected.
gonna do the best I can I lovewhat I'm doing and it's

(50:40):
fascinating to me and I'm superglad it's me in this in the
chair making really goodstrategic decisions because I
can see some of these otherpeople that would make him a
scare me.
if I didn't get elected againand but I spoke my truth the
whole time, be it.
I think that it's just beenmaking me stronger by being able
to, you know, Calmly stay in themiddle and deal with both sides.

Evan Meyer (51:07):
Do you think some of that comes from the, the, the
ways of being that are requiredin order to be a successful
entrepreneur,

Yes.
Yes.
You're if you realize that everysingle citizen is your customer
and you want to do what's rightfor the customer that you will
be a stronger business, strongercity, then you're in the right
mindset.
And that's a goodentrepreneurial mindset.
But I did, hang a sign in theback of my coffee shop and and

(51:39):
it was for the baristas and itsaid sometimes the customers
full of crap, but only I get totell them and and that happens,
right?

Evan Meyer (51:47):
that's very Larry David.

Yeah.

Evan Meyer (51:52):
I forgot, I forget what this coffee, the coffee
shop episode, there's a, there'ssomething he puts on the
customers.
I forget what it was.
Okay.
It's funny though.

Yeah, we, in retail, in business, you get
a 5 percent of the crazies.
I, I banned a couple of peoplefrom my coffee shop forever
because they were stupid.
would either berate my employeesand like, don't ever come back.
Had one guy says, I make aliving by going into retail
establishments and finding outhow they're not ADA compliant
and blackmailing them.

(52:25):
I'm like, really get out, nevercome back to my store.
He thought that that was somesort of brilliance.
And I think it's just the dredgeof humanity.
So entrepreneurialism andrealizing who your customer is.
I think they go hand in hand

Evan Meyer (52:40):
Why aren't there more entrepreneurs in
government?.

because they're busy doing their, their
business, busy doing their job.
That's why there's a lot of oldpeople in government.
Until my kids got up and out ofthe house, I was concentrating
my business and, I'm in ablessed position now where my
kids are comfortably, andthrough school.
One's got a couple more weeks togo and he'll be through school.
And my business is one that'sextremely flexible.

(53:05):
And since My calendar forgovernment stuff is set in
December for the whole year.
I can fit my work in between.
Another entrepreneurialflexibility that you can, you
can do that.
But yeah, if I had to work eighthours a day in a real job, and I
do work eight hours a day.
They just sometimes at midnightto three weird hours because

Evan Meyer (53:28):
Yeah,

zones, but yeah, it's tough for people to
give up their business.
And they're also responsible fortons of employees and making
sure that they're successful.

Evan Meyer (53:39):
yeah.
It feels, it feels, you know,I've, I've always wished there'd
be more engineers for problemsolving and, and entrepreneurs
for creativity, you know,problem solving with creativity
and, and how to look at.
Thinking about people ascustomers, and, and, you know,

(54:01):
in government, that's such,that's such an important thing.
And, and they, in fact, are yourcustomers.

They

Evan Meyer (54:06):
They're, they're paying your salary right?
In essence, there's, there's alevel of that.
But it seems like the culture,the differences of culture in a
government organization and abusiness are so radically
different and, and the way thatbureaucracy is thought about,
like, like sometimes if you tellsomeone in government, sometimes

(54:28):
not all the time, like, Hey, Ican make your job more efficient
if you, all you have to do isuse AI and you can like do that
in a second, or like, here'ssome good software sometimes,
and again, I'm not speaking foreveryone.
It's like, well, then what am Igoing to do all day?

Right?
Right.
Exactly.
Well, you're going to becreative and you're going to
find something else.
You're going to expand theservices of the city.
Right.
Yeah.

Evan Meyer (54:51):
How about represent more people better?

Right.
it's true.
I have so many frustrations withbureaucracy.
And, and maybe this, thisactually works in entrepreneur.
When I was an entrepreneur, Ihad like five different versions
of the health department thatcame and inspected my place.
I'm like, why are you here?
It's like, because somebodystupid did something wrong and
we have to make sure you do itright.

(55:14):
Okay.
rules.
It finally hit me.
Government rules are there.
protect all of us from thedumbest amongst us, the Darwin
award winners, right?
Now, what if government hasn'tfigured out is how to fast track
the responsible, ethical peoplethat are going to do it right.
And so we're all subject to thesame amount of slow to make sure

(55:38):
that stupid doesn't get through.
If we can figure that out, A.
I might be a great tool in, in,in Looking at the background of
a particular person and you'regonna make horrible decisions.
You're on this path and oh,you've done this before you go
on this path.
That would be that would be agreat boon for government
working for everyone.

(55:59):
Not just that blanket rule foreverybody.

Evan Meyer (56:03):
Yeah, it seems to me that there's a lot of cultural
shifts that could happen.
That could make things, youknow, to think about efficient,
but the government is myexperience in many years,
working with government or forgovernment.
Efficiency is not part of theconversation.

(56:25):
Yeah, outcomes are another onethat doesn't seem to be Well, we
invested five billion.
What are the outcomes?
What did we learn?
Can we do it better next time?
We're investing that money intosomething.
It's easy to say there's a lotof investment and money put into
something But if you didn't getout what you expected, what
hypothesis, hypotheses were youtesting?
What did you learn?
How did you get to the outcomesyou needed to get to eventually?

(56:47):
Right?

if you want to get me on a just a
hateful role, just ask me aboutMTA, our transit system in Simi
and every other city of oursize, everywhere in the country
that doesn't work.
And it's just throwing stupidmoney after stupid money.
And I like, I raised my hand thefirst day I was being
introduced.

(57:08):
I'm like, I can fix this.
yeah, but that's not allowed bythe federal government.
I'm like, oh, I just want tosmash my head.
And, and every time that topiccomes up, I get, cause it's so
inefficient.
It's so horrible.
It's such a boondoggle waste ofmoney.

Evan Meyer (57:23):
I remember hearing a story about like a canopy at a
school in order to put shade, itcosts, given all the rules and
regulations and everything thatneeded to, it was like, I want
to say like 20 by 20 shadestructure ended up caught
immediately.
It would have to cost 150, 000or something.
Because of all the things inbetween, yeah,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhod (57:47):
inefficiency at its best.
Yeah.

Evan Meyer (57:49):
maybe, maybe our next podcast, we'll get into
bureaucracy and inefficiency.

Start with transit.

Evan Meyer (57:57):
Start with transit.
Okay, I'll tell him.

All right.
Cool.

Evan Meyer (58:03):
that is our hour.
And.
What a great conversation.
I'm grateful to have had you on.
I think this is wonderful.
Thanks for taking your time andsharing.
I think people need to hearthat, you know, the main thing
here is that difference betweenbig city and small city or urban
and rural is really the thingthat if we can respect our

(58:25):
differences and understand thatit's not even California versus
Texas.
It's, you know, all the bigcities vote blue.

Yeah.
Central

Evan Meyer (58:33):
And all the, so like, you know, we can get a
long way.
So any final words you want toshare with your constituents,

Nope.

Evan Meyer (58:45):
out there in the state

a beautiful Ethiopia, Sadamo
natural process coffee.
And and since we're about to thebottom, I guess the podcast must
be over.

Evan Meyer (58:54):
podcast is over, but I will finish it by saying you
have a book and it's profilingprofiling practicum, a book you
wrote.
Give me a quick brief on that.

I did.
I gratuitously put it in thebackground.
It's on coffee roasting.
So for all you home roasters oranybody that wants to like go
roast your own coffee.
Come talk to me.

Evan Meyer (59:14):
Thank you for that book placement.
A great pleasure, sir.

And to you, I really enjoyed this.

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Balancing Urban & Rural Policy in California Government | Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes, Simi Valley

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Balancing Urban & Rural Policy in California Government | Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes, Simi Valley