Bipartisanship, Structural Partisanship, Activists vs Jurors & Comfort w/ Ambiguity | Shannon Watson
October 29, 2025 • 50 mins
About Evan Meyer
Tech entrepreneur and civic leader - he founded mygovtools.org, a platform to drive government efficiency, constituent representation, and civic engagement; BeautifyEarth.com, a platform accelerating urban beautification through art; and its sister nonprofit, transforming schools in underserved areas. He also co-founded RideAmigos.com, a platform that optimizes commuter travel globally. Previously, he served as District Director for the California State Senate and led many civic initiatives in Santa Monica. Through seminars and his podcast Meyerside Chats, Evan inspires civic engagement, innovation, and cultural growth.
He loves the outdoors, is a master of creative projects, is an avid muralist and musician, and finds the world fascinating in every regard.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (00:00):
Good morning everyone.
Thank you for joining anotherepisode of Meyer Side Chats.
What a day.
Today we have Shannon Watsonwith us.
Very excited to chat withShannon.
We had a wonderful conversationabout two days ago and we are
carrying it forward to today tobring you all the best of our
conversation.
Shannon has 20 plus years ofexperience in electoral
(00:23):
politics.
Advising candidates and workingon campaigns on both sides of
the aisle in Kansas, Colorado,Minnesota, and she has a
wonderful perspective on howgovernment works, on how
politics works, and how to bringus back towards center and have
reasonable conversations.
Shannon, hello.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (00:43):
Hi, how are you?
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (00:45):
Nice to see you again.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (00:46):
You too.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (00:48):
Yeah, I really enjoyed our
conversation the other day and,and very excited to, to now
share it with the world.
And tell me a little bit, let's,why don't we jump right into
just majority in the middle.
It says a lot, I think it
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (01:01):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (01:01):
what you're thinking, but what do
you, tell me a little bit aboutthat.
How'd you get into it and whatare you working on right now
that you're really excitedabout?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (01:07):
Okay, so, majority in the middle is a
non-partisan non-profitorganization, and we've work to
equip and empower civility andgood civic.
And political engagements.
And we do that by creatingspace, sometimes metaphorical
space and sometimes actual,literal spaces for people to
(01:27):
come together no matter sort ofwhat their personal political
persuasion is.
You know.
Left, right center, not youknow, whatever.
Anybody who, who comes to ourtable in good faith, we have a
spot for them.
we try to elevate the, theconduct of people who are sort
of acting like we want to seepoliticians conduct themselves.
(01:51):
And we do that by.
you know, using our platform andthen also encouraging
traditional media organizationsto, to highlight their work and
not just have all the spotlighton the people who are
representing all of thedivision.
And then we also work on a thingthat we call structural
(02:13):
partisanship, which is therules, customs, and sometimes
even physical infrastructurethat divides people and keeps
them divided primarily inlegislative, settings.
So we got a lot going on.
We just in September releasedour third stated bipartisanship
report, which is an analysis ofall of the bills that are here
heard here in Minnesota, and thethe partisan authoring of those
(02:37):
bills.
The, the first one we sort of,we sort of accidentally got into
this work, but the, the veryfirst.
Report showed a lot of thehidden bipartisanship that was
happening when people werecoming together and authoring
bills.
That wasn't showing up at theend of the session when
everything was getting voted onparty line votes.
(02:57):
So, we got to release that andwe did a little statewide tour,
with, with, with electedofficials and did a bunch of
press conferences around thestate.
Tried to make that coverage alittle more relevant for
different communities.
And yeah, we're about to haveour purple party which is a
thing that we do every year.
(03:17):
The second Saturday afterelection day.
We have a party no matter whowins, no matter who loses.
Everybody is welcome.
Generally some people like waituntil after the outcome of
elections to say if they reallywanted to come to a party or
not.
But we do that and, and that's areally, really fun thing to do.
So we're getting ready for thaton November 15th.
(03:39):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (03:40):
Very nice.
Very nice.
All right, let's jump into oneof the things you mentioned and
we talked about earlier, whichis this, this structural
partisanship and, and, and someof the things that get in the
way perhaps even at within theirown caucus.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (03:53):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (03:54):
is, right.
So what, what are some of thethings that you've noticed that
get in the way perhaps that thepublic doesn't know or common
knowledge about, about howthings work in that regard?
In, in finally getting somethingexecuted at the legislative
level?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (04:09):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (04:10):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (04:11):
well, Minnesota is a really
interesting place for a study ofbipartisanship and sort of an
analysis of, of what are those,you know, what are those things
that are, that are getting inthe way?
Because, you know, all, allkinds of Americans say, oh, well
we want our elected officials toget along.
And people, you know, campaignthe first time and they're like,
oh yeah, I'm gonna go and I'mgonna work across the aisle.
(04:31):
And then those things.
to not happen.
And so I did a lot of researchgoing into this and it turned
out I had been noodling on theidea for about 15 years before
we launched in 2020.
but one of the things that Iheard over and over from
legislators.
Was that the opposition toworking across the aisle
(04:52):
generally doesn't come from theother side of the aisle.
It comes from your own caucus.
There's some some sort of likegood hearted and then some like
really.
Organizational barriers put upbecause generally leadership
wants the caucus to sticktogether and wants everybody to
toe the party line.
(05:13):
And so sometimes they needincentives to brave, do that
brave thing, and work withsomebody across the aisle on,
something that their entirecaucus may not entirely agree
with.
So in Minnesota this year.
It's a, it's, we, we sort ofaccidentally wound up with an
(05:33):
opportunity to have a lot ofbipartisanship because our house
of Representatives, it's Houseof Representatives in, in
Minnesota, you know, inCalifornia, it's the assembly.
Our House of Representatives istied with 67 members in the
Democrats and 67 members in theRepublicans.
so you need constitutionally 68votes for anything to pass.
(05:56):
Which means you've gotta havebipartisanship on everything
that goes through.
Which in a good way means thereare a lot of people who are
getting an opportunity to workmembers of the other party in
ways that they haven't ever hadto.
it's also giving a lot of coverfor people who, who really are
(06:17):
interested in working across theaisle.
You know, it, it's not becausethey want to or because they're
brave, it's because they haveto.
And that gives'em a little coverwith constituents who might
otherwise be a little irritatedabout that.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (06:31):
Yeah.
What, and, and, and when we sayworking across the aisle, what,
what does it specifically meanto, in, for.
A Republican to supportsomething that's Strat typically
not supported.
What are the barriers that arepreventing that person from,
from supporting, whether it'sinternal or external?
What are some of the real thingsthat that happen in, in, in
(06:54):
reality,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (06:55):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (06:56):
you know.
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (06:57):
there's a couple.
The first one is that, and, andmost people don't understand
this until you, until you get,you know, you really inner
workings of a legislative body.
The primary organizing, ssituation that, you know, people
think, you know, okay, you'vegot a house, you got a Senate,
or you got an assembly and aSenate and you've got the
(07:17):
different districts and you'vegot the parties and whatever.
The main organizing factions arethe caucuses.
So the House, Republican Caucusand the house in Minnesota, the
Democratic Party is actually theDemocrat Farmer Labor Party.
So if I say DFL, that's whatthat is.
That's Democratic party in, inMinnesota.
So it's like the house, DFLcaucus and the house, the, the
(07:40):
Senate DFL caucus and the SenateRepublican Caucus, those four.
much sort of act likeindependent organizations.
They have their own structures,they have their own seniority,
they have their own leadership,they have their own staff, so,
so sometimes it is Democratsversus Republicans, and
(08:01):
sometimes it's the house versusthe Senate.
And, and actually that, thatcame up a lot this year because
as much as people expected those67 people to fight against the
other 67 people at the end ofthe day, they really had to come
together and be team houseagainst the Senate to try to
advance what, what they wanted.
So there's that.
There's also one of the, one ofthe biggest barriers to working
(08:25):
across the aisle that I haveheard from legislators is their
constituents.
And is the primarily the reallyactive constituents, the, the
party, party elders, but partyactivists who are the ones that
show up and do the endorsements.
And so they have a really hardtime.
(08:48):
Most of the party endorsementsfor legislative seats, like in
2026, every single one of ourlegislators is, is on the
ballot.
The house is elected every twoyears.
Our Senate is elected fouryears, four years, and two
years, which has to do withredistricting.
But this is one of those yearswhere everybody is on the
ballot.
And so they will all have to gothrough.
(09:09):
Endorsing conventions, in latewinter, early spring, so
February, March, April, in theresomewhere.
Which means their primaryaudience for a few months those
people who have votes in the theparty caucuses about whether
they're gonna get theendorsement or not.
(09:30):
And as you can imagine, the.
Language that you use and theopinions and the priorities of
200 very committed partyactivists is probably different
than the general population.
Or your constituents who are, donot share that party
(09:53):
affiliation.
So,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (09:54):
I don't know if the right term for
those folks.
I don't know if the right termfor these particular folks.
I think it may be partiallysqueaky wheel.
Is usually a good term todescribe People that like
continue to do the thing andhave the loudest voice and push
on the issue.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (10:08):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (10:09):
wheel a good term to describe these
types of.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (10:12):
it's, I think it's a good term.
And they, I mean, they're also,they're the ones that have the
power.
They are delegates to theendorsing convention.
If you don't get theendorsement, you still do have
the option to go to a primary toget, to get that party spot on
the ballot in November.
But a lot of people don't havethe desire or don't have the
(10:32):
resources to run againstsomebody else who may have
gotten the endorsement.
all the way until our, like ourprimary elections aren't until
August, which is a thing that Ithink universally nobody likes
because in August the only thingthat people in Minnesota are
doing is, is trying to beoutside.
'cause it's one of the monthsthat we can.
(10:54):
So, so it like, it takes a lotit takes a lot of resources.
It takes a lot of grit to run aprimary contest.
And I will tell, like, there isnot a single legislator that I
know who is more afraid of achallenger across the aisle you
know, like of the other partythan they are a, a primary kind
(11:15):
of candidate, primary andchallenger those are much harder
races to run.
For most
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (11:22):
When you say harder, you mean, you
just mean the, the, the chancesof winning,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (11:26):
Well, and just, it means that you have
to, you know, you have to sortof retreat to the fringes with
your language and with whatyou're trying to do.
And,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (11:33):
right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (11:34):
so in some districts it's not as
big of a deal as like, okay, soI live in Minneapolis, which is
a very sort of blue city.
That doesn't mean that, youknow, moderates and Republicans
don't live here.
It's just like.
We're, we're outnumbered by alot.
so the district that I used tolive in my house member has had
(11:55):
the DDFL endorsement, democraticendorsement ran unopposed two
years ago.
And and she got 93% of the vote.
She had no opponent whose namewas on the ballot, and yet 7% of
the people in the district whovoted wrote somebody else in or
(12:16):
didn't vote for her.
Goes to show, like even in thedistricts that are super red or
super blue, like every electedofficial has constituents that
they are supposed to representdidn't vote for them.
But it's it, it's, it's easierto in districts like that where,
(12:36):
you know, 90% of the people are,are, are with you most of the
time.
The real contest is the primary,you know, if you have multiple
candidates from one party, andthis could be the same as, you
know, in Greater Minnesota whereyou get some of those deep red
districts, whoever gets throughthe primary is probably gonna
skate against.
Against their, their oppositeparty opponent if they even have
(12:57):
one.
So that's where it gets, it getsa little more difficult because
you know, you have to play tothat particular audience.
And sometimes people are morethan happy to, maybe that's, you
know, why they got intopolitics.
There are deep red or deep blueand that's what they wanna do.
But some, particularly the onesthat live in the more purple
districts have a harder time ofthat because they risk
(13:18):
alienating the people who aren'tthose party delegates.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (13:22):
Right.
Well, it also sounds like a bitof an activation energy issue,
right?
Like once you have the momentum,it's a lot easier and people
know you.
But getting to from zero to oneis hard, right?
Like, like if you don't, if youdon't have a community or an
audience or a following andyou're like, I have good ideas,
well.
That's great, but this person isbeing listened to by a quarter
(13:44):
million people and you're beinglistened to by none.
So how do you get in, in, justfrom an awareness standpoint, a
branding awareness standpoint,how do you do that?
And it's really hard.
And unfortunately, I know evenin California, for example you
know, you get access once youare in the Senate for assembly
to a massive voter registrationemail list
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (14:06):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (14:08):
like.
The Senate, it's like, you know,I, a quarter million, half a
million.
It depends on certain things,but like, it's just, it's
massive.
So then you're like, okay, howdo you even, how do you even
start to do that if you, unlessyou have already built that
somehow,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (14:23):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (14:23):
no, there, it's just an audience at
some point.
It's an audience and brandingexercise.
So like, so the first step islike, okay, you have an idea.
Oh, you wanna run?
Great.
How are you gonna go from zeroto one?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (14:37):
Yeah.
It's hard.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (14:39):
This is what they're doing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (14:41):
you know it.
It's interesting you mentionedin my bio, like I worked for
political campaigns for a reallylong time and that was either as
a volunteer or as a, as a paidstaff.
And then I got out of that and Iused to do a thing that I called
pre-campaign consulting, thatwas I would work with people who
were interested in running foroffice.
At some point, like not rightthen.
(15:02):
So this wasn't how do you doorknock or how do you fundraise or
how do you create a message or,you know, what do you need to
know about yard signs?
Way less than more people wantto know about yard signs.
You'd need to know way lessabout yard signs.
But what we would work on is youknow, becoming known in your
community if you are looking foran endorsement not having the
(15:23):
first time you ever show up.
To one of those precinctmeetings being when you're
trying to get the endorsement,no, you need to go a
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (15:29):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (15:30):
of time to
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (15:31):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (15:32):
your point, to start building that
audience.
And that's one of the ways thatis, is really helpful for
candidates to look at.
Sometimes even like, you know,you gotta run multiple times.
Your first raise something likeit there, there's a, I can't
find the the stat, but it'ssomething like 97% of first time
candidates lose.
(15:52):
Like 97% of first timecandidates lose
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (15:55):
Even at local elections, even, even
at the.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (15:57):
Yeah.
And that's that could be reallydaunting, especially if first
time candidates have a, a badexperience running and losing.
I mean, you could run and loseand still have a good experience
if you, if you frame it up theright way.
And if like the reason that youlose.
Is it sort of your fault, orsomething that you didn't know
(16:18):
that trips you up?
So,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (16:21):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (16:21):
I, I used to do that and that was,
that was really fun.
Because it, it gave us anopportunity to say, you know,
who are you cons?
Who are your constituencies?
Who is your network?
Who do you need to know?
Where do you.
Where are the places you need toknow?
And that actually I think helpeda lot.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (16:37):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (16:37):
'cause that's the thing, if, if a
candidate runs and doesn't winand never runs again, like that
can be a huge swing and a missfor some communities.
Especially because the otherpiece about first time
candidates, first timecandidates usually have a lot of
people around them.
for whom it's also their firstexperience of electoral
(16:59):
politics.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:00):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (17:01):
has a bad experience and their
family has a bad experience andtheir neighbors have a bad
experience, then,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (17:06):
just drives people further and
further away.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:10):
Yeah, it well, for sure.
And you're also putting your,your entire life under a
microscope.
So, and, and your family too.
And now with political violenceand.
There's stuff going on.
It's, it's quite scary to, to,to say, let me enter that game.
It's added yet another barrierto entry, not just activation,
energy and building a community,having better ideas, motivating
people to believe in you,believing your ideas are better
(17:31):
than other people's.
That you have the, you have allthe fix, you have the fixes,
right?
Well, now you have to worryabout political violence.
If you get too big, then youknow, are people, are your ideas
a little too much for somecrazy.
People.
And, and that adds unfortunatelyanother barrier to entry.
What do you think is, where arewe right now in terms of like,
(17:54):
the type of people, so given the97% statistic that you've,
you've mentioned given how hardit is with activation energy to
get to from zero to one to evenbe considered in a race like
that.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (18:05):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (18:06):
Right.
Especially at the state level, Imean.
Even at local levels, it's,it's, it's challenging.
So, what do we need to do toovercome these things?
Plus the political violence, thefears of getting involved so
people can, the right people canbubble up and start getting
elected.
'cause right now there's such asmall number of people who fit
(18:26):
into this, this mold.
It's like a certain type andstyle of person.
It's not the engineers.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (18:35):
right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (18:35):
And the entrepreneurs quite as much
you know,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (18:38):
the Are really high.
Elected office also doesn't payvery well, and none of us
actually have free time.
I mean, I don't know a singleperson who just, you know, at
the end of the day sits andstairs at the wall for an hour
and doesn't move.
Like we're all doing things withour time.
And so part of the challenge isfiguring out what trade-offs
there's gonna.
Are you gonna be stepping awayfrom work?
(18:58):
Are you gonna be stepping awayfrom your family?
We have made serving inelectoral office in this
country, like really, reallyunpleasant.
And
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (19:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (19:07):
think, geez, I wish I had a silver
bullet, but there's, there'sreally like 14 or 15 things that
we can probably do.
I think the first one is havinga little more support, a little
more respect for people who areserving in office.
The.
The social media comments thatthey have to deal with and the,
the harassment that's gottastop.
(19:29):
And like, I know, I know a guywho has served in office and he
is, he's running for anotheroffice and when people send him
nasty emails, he writes themback and says, you know, thank
you for your email.
Let's go to coffee and talkabout this.
And of course, almost nobodytakes him up on it because they
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (19:48):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (19:49):
wanna have a conversation.
They want to, you know, send anasty gram to somebody that they
don't know.
And I mean, I, I think there's,there's gotta be something to be
said about like our, likeeverybody's sort of mental
health threshold.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (20:06):
Yeah, these keyboard warriors and
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (20:08):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (20:09):
warrior type people.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (20:10):
And we're all very angry and we're
all very scared, and it seemslike a lot of this all the time.
And we wanna figure out who topoint that at and who to sort of
do harm to.
And we're, we're kind of doingit to each other which is
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (20:22):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (20:22):
it up more.
So anyways, a little morekindness on social media.
Another thing is, there are, inmy mind there are two different
kinds of people who, who run foroffice people who are more of an
activist or people who are moreof an analyst.
I used to say activist andjudge, but analyst is actually a
better, a, a better sort of termfor this.
So activists.
(20:44):
running for office because theyhave the solution to a problem
or they have something that theyvery much care about, whether
that is homelessness orimmigration or you know, the
taxes, you know, their propertytaxes or their kids' school or
whatever, they come in.
They have either volunteeredwith an advocacy organization or
(21:05):
they've been involved in, inthat in some way, and they bring
those experiences and those sortof solutions.
To the table.
To the table.
Like that's, that's their, theirreason for running for office.
I know how to fix this problem.
I wanna fix this problem.
Like, here I come.
I have found there's a lot ofadvocacy organizations who are
(21:25):
really pushing their theirsupporters and sometimes their
staff to run for office.
That is one way to get from zeroto one is to have an
organization like that behindyou.
But, but so that has, that has,people with a particular mindset
to to elected office.
And the challenge is once theyget elected, then they have to
make decisions.
And if you come in with yoursolution in mind, with your mind
(21:48):
made up,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (21:50):
Okay.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (21:50):
your statistics and stuff, you're not
really interested in theconversation, you're like, I
have this solution then thatmakes it much harder to
negotiate or deal with.
Deal with you know, your otherelected officials, an analyst or
like a juror the people who say,we've got a challenge.
(22:12):
I want to come help.
But I don't necessarily have asolution in mind.
Like, you know, you go in andyou sit on a jury and the jury
is presented with evidence andthis and the situation, and then
they have to get together withthe other jurors and make a
decision.
Those people generally, likethey don't know as much about
one thing.
They generally know a lot moreabout a lot of little things.
(22:35):
And they have a very open mind,which means they generally work
more slowly than the activistslife.
And there are activists andjurors on both sides.
Like, you know, you can haveright or left, it doesn't really
matter.
Old and young doesn't reallymatter.
but when you get those, thosetwo.
Kinds of, of elected officials,you get'em like sort of in the
(22:56):
same space.
Then they butt heads even ifthey agree on things just based
on how they want to approach thejob.
It's like, I want to enact thissolution, or let's talk about
the options to this solution.
We may get to yours.
But that's, that's one of thethings.
And so that's one of the reasonsthat I always try to look for.
(23:19):
People who are more like jurorsthan activists activists have a
place in democracy.
But the more jurors that youhave, the more likely you are
going to find consensus onissues.
and have people who are willingto, to compromise and
collaborate and, and notnecessarily just get thumbs up
(23:39):
for the, the thing that theycame in with.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (23:41):
I love that there, we, we need to
have an index, the juror toactivist index.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (23:47):
Wouldn't that be
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (23:47):
Right?
And what should it be?
50 50?
Should it be 75%?
J what you're, what you'resuggesting, I think, and I've
I've, something I've thoughtabout for a long time is why are
people not studying politicalphilosophy?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (24:00):
Hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (24:01):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:02):
dull.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:05):
It's, it's, I mean, but there's,
there's, there's brilliantpeople, John Locke and Thomas
Payne and like all these like,right, like people who have, who
have thought through the, the,the f because it's not, it's not
a science
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (24:20):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (24:21):
to create.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:22):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (24:23):
in art.
It's how to create a perfectsociety has not been discovered
yet.
We've been working on it forthousands of years.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:29):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:29):
one's figured it out.
Plato had great ideas,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (24:32):
Uhhuh,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (24:32):
thought he knew what he was, right?
Like we and we, we've had to gothrough iterations of what
ultimately is the mostutilitarian utilitarian approach
where most people can be mosthappy with the best quality of
life.
Most often.
And at the moment, it's the bestit's ever been, given all the
problems.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:49):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:50):
We're still not, we're not hitting
people with clubs.
One outta three people aren'tdying by, you know, because they
have different eyebrows thanyou.
When they're blindsided with a,a, a big, you know, wooden club.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (25:00):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (25:01):
You know, that's what it used to be
like.
You.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (25:03):
I be really fun.
A, a John Locke on TikTokchannel explaining political
philosophy in 30 seconds orless.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (25:12):
Yeah, there's, and you know what?
There's actually a lot of goodcontent if people were more
philo philosophical.
And I think that aligns withyour juror comment because I
think what you're suggesting iscan you weigh out pros and cons
and see the Right.
So, and, and, and a philosopheris essentially someone who does
that well without taking alarge.
(25:32):
Emotional investment on eitherside.
They can weigh them outobjectively and a juror does
that, is supposed to be able todo that.
And they study philosophy.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (25:41):
Uhhuh.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and in practice you know,the, the jurors generally have,
a little more comfort withambiguity, and they bring more
voices to the table, actually.
Because it's, it's not that the,the person who's coming in is,
(26:03):
has to be more
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (26:04):
it's a great line.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (26:05):
But the one place where activists
really do excel is in anattention economy, like an
activist can explain their thingto you in 30 seconds.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (26:17):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (26:18):
A juror has a really hard time to
do that.
So we are very much in anattention economy and elected
officials have had to be it's,it's really hard to.
Well, it's, it's the whole, thenext 10 words thing from, from
West Wing.
What are the next 10 words?
Like 10 words is great.
What are the next 10 words?
Tell me the next 10 words.
I am an enormous fan ofeverything.
(26:39):
Aaron Sorkin, by the way.
A lot of us are I used to have,I actually used to have a sticky
note.
This is a sidebar.
I used to have a sticky note onmy monitor.
And I do a lot of writing andthe sticky notes said what would
Aaron Sorkin write?
And after a couple years I hadto take it down because I
realized it was so much pressureI wasn't getting anything done.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (26:59):
A little.
A little too hard.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (27:01):
right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (27:02):
That's funny.
shannon-watson_1_10-2 (27:03):
activists work really well in the
attention economy and so theyhave a much better.
Embrace of how we are doingcommunication these days.
And so that el that, that gives'em a little extra lift in that
getting from zero to one,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (27:21):
I see,
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (27:22):
problem.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (27:22):
see.
Yeah.
They excel in the attentioneconomy and the rage bait and
the, in the, in the click baitand the how to, you know, get
people,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (27:29):
it down to something really simple.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (27:31):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (27:32):
know,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (27:32):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (27:32):
don't like my
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (27:33):
Mm-hmm.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (27:33):
are a terrible person
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (27:34):
Yep, yep.
Right.
What click advertising dollars.
So, and that's, and that's,that's an unfortunate reality
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (27:45):
It is.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (27:46):
because it's taking the, the emotional
impulsive, often even whimsicalmentality and behavior of what
people feel in the momentwithout considering
implications, consequences, andperspective.
And it, and it throws it at thetop of the list and, and.
You know, I'm, I'm glad there'sat least some recognition that
(28:09):
this is happening.
And it seems like people know,if you tell them this, they'll
be like, oh, yeah, yeah, ofcourse.
But they're the first ones toparticipate in it, so it's very,
and they'll, well, let's justplay the game, you know, and
some people don't wanna playthat game.
And if you play, how do you playthat game in a way that is not
just doing, you know, click baittype stuff, but, but you said
something really interesting,you said comfort with ambiguity.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (28:31):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (28:33):
This is an interesting you have to do
a lot of self work,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (28:37):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (28:38):
right?
To, to, to be able to feelcomfortable in, in ambiguous
spaces, especially ones that arefear, where there's fear can
come up and you've got tr pasttraumas or whatever triggers you
to get real invested in thisthing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (28:53):
Yes.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (28:54):
do you, how do you put that aside
and say, oh man, wait a second.
150 million people thinkdifferently than me
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (29:02):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (29:03):
Even with all that, how do you
suppress those things so thatyou can let even have a, be
comfortable and ambiguity
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (29:11):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (29:12):
embrace a reason rational conversation.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (29:15):
Right.
Well, and that, I think that'sone of the places where, you
know, I tell people all the timethat if they want better
political camp, you don't reallywant, like, I don't like the
people on my ballot.
Okay.
Then either run for officeyourself or that may you, you
may not be the best person onthe ballot but think of the best
person, you know, like who isthe best person, you know.
(29:37):
And encourage them to run foroffice.
And 99 times out of a hundredthey will laugh at you.
'Cause they'll be like, I don'twant any part of
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (29:43):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (29:44):
But that's the thing.
It's the people who are, youknow, just kind of the best
people, the smartest the mostthe most compassionate, the most
thoughtful you know, the, theones who.
you know, have a, a breadth anddepth of life experience.
That gives them an interestingperspective.
(30:05):
And those are not always thepeople who talk the most or talk
the loudest actually.
They're often not the personwho's talking the most or the
person who's talking theloudest.
Loudest.
probably not.
And I say that as somebody whotalks a lot and talks pretty
loud, so
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (30:22):
I think there's a reason for that,
I think.
I think one of the reasons, andlook, I find myself thinking
about this a lot also, where youwanna reply to something and say
something and then you go.
What are the chances you'regonna convince someone of your
argument on a thread, on a con?
Like you think that, and you'regonna spend the time to convince
people of, of, of your idea.
(30:43):
Like when, you know, when yousay like, we, we've had this is
it When you have something tocommunicate to you communicate
via SMS, do you communicate viaemail?
Do you, is it a phone call?
All that.
And sometimes in the businessworld or in anyway, you know,
you have to say, ah, I don'tthink I'm gonna send that in an
email.
I think that's a phone call,right?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (31:00):
I had
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (31:00):
Things.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:01):
call like right before I got on the
thing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (31:04):
It's a phone,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:05):
call me'cause she was like, I don't
wanna put this in writing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (31:08):
right?
They've taken all the worstthings that are not meant for
text messages, you know, and,and, and they've put it in
hateful short messaging,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (31:17):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (31:17):
which is not where it belongs to get
to the bottom of points, and noone is gonna be like, oh, man.
You're so right and all thethousand people on who've
commented on this are now gonnaagree with you and change their
perspective.
You may get a few thumbs up, youmay get a couple people go,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like, you're not gonna shiftanything on that co on that
thread with that comment withyour long, thoughtful response
(31:39):
on that one thread.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:41):
That when people post on social media
and they have arguments onsocial media it actually, it
doesn't it, it almost neverchanges anybody else's mind.
But what it does is itreinforces your position in your
own mind.
So it shoves you further downyour rabbit hole.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (31:56):
Oh, oh boy.
Yeah, I, I'd have to imagineit's so much more weighted in
the way that you're talkingabout than like the number of
people.
You think it affected.
So it's not a good use of timeor your brain power or
intellect.
You're better intellect, you'rebetter off spending time with
your kids traveling reading abook you like and, and, and
perhaps writing something thatcan be shared in a much
(32:16):
different way.
More, more effectively.
But that comment on social, Ithink people gotta stop that.
It's like, stop.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (32:23):
You know, it's interesting, I've
read the, I have always been theperson to read the comments, and
I know the rule is don't readthe comments.
Comments that I know are notcoming from bots, I generally
still read.
I still read because thecomments that people will put on
like moderated forums it, it maynot be it may not be super
(32:43):
nuanced.
Those are what people reallythink.
the, the best way to make surethat you're not gonna solve a
problem is to ignore half of thepeople who are engaged in a
problem and not know, like, youknow, the, the first step to
solving any problem isacknowledging that there is one.
(33:05):
the first step to overcoming anyargument is to find out that
there is one,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:10):
Yeah, that's right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (33:12):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (33:13):
no, just versus noticing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (33:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:16):
Yeah,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (33:16):
and listening and, and then not
immediately discounting likethat person said that thing
because they are
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:23):
yeah.
Well the, you know, a good testand, and could be sometimes take
the hardest possible issue.
Gun control, abortion you know,any of these like top line
things, which in my opinion,there's not a right answer for,
because if there was, it wouldbe, it wouldn't.
It's a philosophical problem,not an obvious scientific
(33:47):
answer, and enough pe thingsthat are divided 50 50.
It's not like there's dumbpeople on one side and smart
people on the other side.
Like there's, there's obviouslyreal intellectual rationale and
concern.
For, for any of these sides, ifthings are di, when things are
divided 50 50, you didn't win.
If you won by 51%,
shannon-watson_1_10 (34:07):
Absolutely.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (34:08):
win.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:08):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (34:09):
you know, so.
shannon-watson_1_10-2 (34:10):
actually, I'm in support, like when we
talk about federal government,like, which I don't talk about
very often, but like the 60 per60 votes you need in the Senate.
I think that's great becausestill that's not an overwhelming
majority, but that's, that'smore than just
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (34:27):
Right, right.
It's funny to think about.
It's like, yes, we won.
It's like, sort of a zero sumgame.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:34):
Yeah.
Oh
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (34:35):
Okay.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (34:35):
We could,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (34:36):
Right.
So,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (34:37):
on zero sum games.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (34:38):
oh, we won the abortion thing this
time.
It's like, hmm.
Sort of a zero sum game.
You won, someone else lost.
shannon-watson_1_1 (34:45):
permanently,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (34:47):
Exactly, and it's, and it's just too
complicated for people to thinkthat there's a right answer.
And anytime anyone comes up andis like, oh, I can solve the
health insurance problem soeasily, all you have to do is
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:57):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (34:57):
this one thing.
And it's like, wow, you shouldrun for office and make that
happen because if, because allthese very smart people, if not
figured out that brilliant
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (35:07):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (35:08):
minute solution to a hundred year old
problem.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (35:11):
And that's the thing.
I mean, we're, we're left, likethe easy stuff is done.
We are left with the hard stuff.
You know, you,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (35:17):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (35:19):
and a brilliant, brilliant friend of
mine.
Catalyzed for me the gunargument several years ago.
So she is a woman, she is a gunowner.
She carries a gun, she has a, apermit to carry, a concealed
carry permit.
She was going to school and thecampus had a no guns on campus
(35:39):
policy.
And so one of the things thatshe wanted to do is she wanted
to, she wanted the school tochange that.
because she wanted to have her,her gun with her as she does
most of the time.
And her thing was that thechallenge with guns is that gun
(36:01):
makes her feel safe and we comeinto a problem when her gun
makes me feel unsafe.
Like that's, that's the thing.
Her gun makes her feel safe.
Her gun makes me feel, andactually her gun doesn't make me
feel unsafe, but, you know,whatever.
(36:21):
Like we're talk beyond justwho's, who's feeling of safety?
Are we gonna lean into and, andhold up.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (36:32):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (36:32):
also when you're talking about
something that's fear based.
That's not the rational part ofyour brain, that that's, that's
the limbic part of your brain.
That's the reptilian, the oldestpart.
And to your point, you can't,you can't rationalize your way
out of fear.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (36:48):
No,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (36:49):
So
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (36:49):
you can't.
shannon-watson_1_10- (36:50):
brilliant.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (36:51):
Yeah, I think that's a, an interesting
one of the fundamental,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (36:55):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10- (36:56):
Philosophical.
Arguments of of, of why it'scomplicated.
There's a lot of'em, I think.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (37:02):
And that's, and that's one of the
reasons that we use that tactic.
And I say we as people in the,you know, sort of politics
industry, we as the tactics tomake know, very dry policy
considerations into somethingthat people are going to have an
emotional reaction to.
Because
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:20):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (37:20):
can't, you can't rationalize your way
out of that if they are afraid.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:25):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (37:25):
it is that you're trying to promote
or trying to stop, like
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:30):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (37:31):
easy.
You just got now.
Now the next part is you justhave to keep'em afraid or angry
to do what you want.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (37:37):
Right, right.
So the, the, a lot, there's somany human psychology underlying
problems with this andfear-based emotional responses
to things and sense of selfpurpose and like why people even
engage in the first place.
Like, you're not gonna doanything about it.
Why are you even read somethingelse?
It's just the craziest thing.
I've had this conversation withway too many friends and family,
(37:58):
like, all you're doing isthere's so much beauty in the
world.
Go and join if you're, if youcan't, is it Maya Angelou, this
famous quote, I forget who said,if you can't, if you can't, uh
uh.
If you don't like it, fix,change it.
If you can't change it, changeyour attitude.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (38:12):
yeah.
Something like that.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (38:13):
Right.
It's like you're gonna spend allthis time hating.
You're not doing anything.
You're gonna just go work onyour business and read something
nice.
Go read books about art andbeauty and music, and enjoy
life.
You're so frustrated and you'reso privileged and you're just,
you feel bad that you'reprivileged to live in America in
the top 1% of people in West LosAngeles and have everything, and
you don't have to worry abouthot water or plumbing or
(38:34):
anything like that.
You got all this incredible, thefood is always fine.
The water's always fine.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (38:40):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-20 (38:40):
doorstep, and all you wanna do is go out
and hate things that you're notgonna do anything about.
I, I don't, I don't get thatmentality.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (38:46):
of us push the message that if
you're, you know, like the, the,the thing, if you're not
outraged, you're not payingattention.
I hate that.
Like,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (38:55):
I mean,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (38:56):
to
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (38:56):
no.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (38:57):
up, even though it, that's, that's
the entire point of,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (39:01):
Yeah,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (39:01):
thing is
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (39:02):
that's right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (39:03):
up.
So yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (39:04):
So let's bring it back to, let's
bring it back a little tomajority in the middle.
I want to, I want to get alittle bit more about, so maybe
the most exciting thing you'reworking on right now.
And let's encapsulate thisconversation a little bit around
about what you are doing rightnow in your organization to, to
make some of these improvementsin our society.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (39:23):
Yeah.
So one of the things that we areworking on, we've got this whole
body of work that is, is just,it's just waiting to get off the
ground.
It, it is formulated, it's justwaiting to get off the ground.
But it is a focus on nonpartisanlocal officials.
So like, you know, thelegislature and the Congress,
those are partisan roles.
In Minnesota, every localelected office so that's county
(39:46):
commissioner, city council,mayor, school board, park board,
you know, supervisor, whatever.
Those are all legallynon-partisan offices.
They're not always functionallynon-partisan offices, but
they're legally non-partisanoffices.
And so we have spent the lastcouple of years talking with our
friends and doing research andtrying to figure out like how do
(40:08):
we keep the non-partisan officesnon-partisan?
How do we create communityaround nonpartisan offices and
people who hold them so that,you know, they have a community.
It's really hard to say.
No to an endorsement or to beinga, a member of a party because
so many things come along withthat.
(40:28):
And then also Minnesota's got, Idon't know if it's a significant
problem, but it depends on whoyou talk to and who's using it
but sort of a rural urbandivide.
And so, we
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (40:40):
I think that's the whole country.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (40:42):
Right.
Probably.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (40:43):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (40:44):
we have been convening some Zoom
groups.
It used to be that we wouldconvene a, a group of elected
officials for whatever reason,and we would spend the first
half of the call talking aboutwhatever we were had intended to
talk about.
And then we spent the other halfof the call when they would
basically be having a supportgroup meeting and talking about
(41:05):
zoning or pickleball.
Or how do you deal with the, thefrequent flyer constituents who
show up at every meeting andthey always have a comment about
something on the agenda.
Like, how do you, how do yourespectfully deal with them?
And so, so we, we put togetherthis whole thing that is, is
basically just that it's thesecond half of the meeting.
(41:26):
And created these cohorts ofsome people who are in rural
areas.
Some are in suburban, some arein urban.
And trying to mix those up sopeople can find commonalities
and, and then sort of like ideasof things that they might have
not thought of because it hadn'tapplied to them yet, or they can
exchange information.
So like that has been a reallycool thing to watch.
(41:48):
And then we've got, you know, abunch of other work that.
That is, is getting ready tojump off, but it's, it's all
based on that and creating thoserelationships and
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (41:56):
So, so the goal is to create a, a
non-par cities should benon-partisan.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:02):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (42:03):
Is that the idea in, in.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:05):
Well, I mean, legally, those, those
those offices are, becausethey're not meant to be, you
know, there's no such thing asa, as a DFL or a Republican
pothole
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (42:15):
Right, but what makes the city
partisan?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (42:18):
The the when the endorsements when
local party units start doingendorsements and candidates feel
like they need to carry thatbanner.
There are some places inMinnesota where the party
endorsement is a, a big thing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (42:31):
You mean the city council?
The people on the city council,for example, let's just say
they're all Democrat.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (42:38):
right, right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (42:38):
Which in many California cities they
are, they're just, all right.
I, I, so, okay, so now you have,so now, and, and so you're
suggesting that if we remove theendorsements, which is hard to
do, like you said,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:54):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (42:55):
from the democratic parties
endorsement of this candidatefor this position, and so well,
let's, let's say this.
So since it's.
Let's say that's a, the hardproblem is to prevent the, them
taking money for their campaignfrom these political parties.
How can we make sure that thecities themselves operated and
(43:19):
run by the city manager, forexample, which is separate than
the political body of the, ofthe council.
Kind of like a board ofdirectors and a CEO.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (43:31):
Exactly.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (43:32):
How do we make sure there, because
there's two versions of that.
One is let's make sure all thecandidates are nonpartisan.
The other is how do you makesure the city is, is, is making
sure that those candidates, evenif they are getting that money,
are not pushing political issuesthat could make them come off as
partisan.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (43:51):
Right.
Well, and that's, and that's agood question.
And the, the bigger problem fromour perspective is, there is
some mission creep when, youknow, they take on issues that
they're probably not that'sprobably not their focus or they
bring a, a partisan sort of lensto what, what's on the city
council agenda.
But also that just gives anotherlayer of, you know, my city
(44:16):
counselor isn't the same as me.
so that creates a divide andthat's an artificial divide
that.
Still in Minnesota, in a lot ofplaces it doesn't exist.
There are a couple of citieswhere it, it's a big thing.
And one of the things that wewere hearing from elected
officials the last couple ofyears was, live in that city.
(44:36):
I really don't want thissituation.
There's, there's, a couple ofpeople who have gone to the
endorsing convention.
Like they're, they're still amember of their party, but they
just aren't wearing that hat asa
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (44:49):
To,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (44:50):
There are a couple of'em that I know
of.
Who have gone to the endorsinginterview to tell the people
they really shouldn't beendorsing in that race because
it is a nonpartisan race and allof that.
There are always people who say,well, why don't you just.
Like ban endorsements, like havea law to ban endorsements.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (45:08):
mm-hmm.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (45:09):
your state California tried that in
the 1980s and it isunconstitutional.
So that's why we, we don't trythat.
So that's part of the, thechallenge, just like, with
legislative candidates and, andlegislative elected
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (45:21):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (45:22):
you know, you, you have to, you have
to figure out what are theincentives for
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (45:26):
Yep.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (45:27):
or not doing it.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (45:29):
Well, tell me what cities are first on
the list.
What do we, which cities aregonna commit to this behavior?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (45:34):
Oh well, this is the thing.
It's, it's done withindividuals, so we're not asking
necessarily a, an entire city toright, to organizationally take
a position on this.
For a lot of them that would bevery awkward to have to do that.
And so we're, we're going.
by person.
And, you know, we've got the,the support groups who you know,
(45:55):
have, they do, they, theysupport each other and they
trade tips and tricks and hey,what can we do about this person
on our council who keeps doingthese really partisan things and
doesn't
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:06):
their hat is different and all those
things.
So it's
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:10):
Look, I know, I know a, I know so many
council members who would rathernot
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (46:18):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (46:18):
play the game
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:19):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (46:21):
and if they had a good reason or,
or, or they could have been,they, they could be supported in
a way to not.
Play the game.
They would,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:30):
Yeah.
And
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (46:31):
and some are more.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (46:32):
letting, letting your constituents know,
like a lot of constituents don'trealize that yes, there state
representative is gonna have aletter behind their name, but
their city council, or it isn't.
For good reason because
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:46):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_1 (46:47):
non-partisan offices and these are partisan
offices.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:49):
Yeah.
It's almost, you know, you knowwhat's even more interesting
that an individual.
At any level could not want toaspire to take a philosophical,
more centrist approach tothings,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (47:03):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (47:05):
right?
Because you think like, you'vegot all these groups and we're
the Democratic Party and theRepublican party, and they were
like, go blue, and whatever the,whatever it is, like, and then
you're like, don't you see, youknow, there's polarization and
you're playing into it like you,like people know.
But they choose to continue todo it for money, power.
Maybe they're really strong onlike one issue that they just
(47:27):
can't get over and, but youwould,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (47:30):
Di
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (47:31):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (47:31):
one of the things that really, I, I
find comfort in this, and as Iwas looking at division and all
these, just like, what are the,what are the basics of division?
One of the things that we do,like, we divide because we're
human.
It is part of our genetic codeto put people in, in groups or,
and out groups.
you with me or are you that you,are you us, or are you them?
(47:54):
that makes a difference whenyou're talking about, you know,
being in a political party ornot.
One of the things that we'redoing with the support groups is
reminding people they are notalone.
It's not them versus me, it'sthem versus us.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:10):
Right,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (48:10):
Us isn't always as as visible
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:13):
right,
shannon-watson_1_10 (48:14):
situations.
So that's a i
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:15):
right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (48:16):
that's a
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (48:17):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (48:17):
thing to get to do.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (48:19):
Alright, well, tell me how do people,
what do you want people to knowabout Majority in the Middle and
how do they get in touch withyou?
How do they sign up?
How do they join?
How do they lead in the movementthat you are creating here?
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (48:30):
Awesome.
One of the questions that we geta lot is are you just Minnesota
And we are just Minnesota rightnow.
That being said, our goal.
Is to to take what we learned inMinnesota and be able to
replicate it in other places.
So if you are interested and youdo not live in Minnesota, still
sign up anyway because maybeeventually we will get there.
So, our website is majoritymiddle.org.
(48:53):
Not majority in the middle.org.
I don't know who owns that.
I, I want to steal it with fromthem as soon as, as soon as I
can.
But I don't wanna ask'em if Ican buy it.
'cause then they'll think it'sa, a thing.
So anyways majority middle.org.
We suggest the first thing youdo is sign up for the
newsletter.
We only send like three a month.
That give gives you a littleview into what we're doing and
(49:17):
who we are and that kind ofthing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (49:19):
Awesome.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (49:20):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (49:20):
Shannon Watson thank you so much.
Best of luck on this, on thismission and I I enjoyed this
conversation
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (49:27):
Me
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (49:27):
I will
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (49:28):
This
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (49:28):
speak to you.
This was good.
I will speak to you again soon.
Thanks for all the good, hardwork you're doing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (49:33):
Thanks, Evan.
Appreciate it.
Good morning everyone.
Thank you for joining anotherepisode of Meyer Side Chats.
What a day.
Today we have Shannon Watsonwith us.
Very excited to chat withShannon.
We had a wonderful conversationabout two days ago and we are
carrying it forward to today tobring you all the best of our
conversation.
Shannon has 20 plus years ofexperience in electoral
(00:23):
politics.
Advising candidates and workingon campaigns on both sides of
the aisle in Kansas, Colorado,Minnesota, and she has a
wonderful perspective on howgovernment works, on how
politics works, and how to bringus back towards center and have
reasonable conversations.
Shannon, hello.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (00:43):
Hi, how are you?
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (00:45):
Nice to see you again.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (00:46):
You too.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (00:48):
Yeah, I really enjoyed our
conversation the other day and,and very excited to, to now
share it with the world.
And tell me a little bit, let's,why don't we jump right into
just majority in the middle.
It says a lot, I think it
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (01:01):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (01:01):
what you're thinking, but what do
you, tell me a little bit aboutthat.
How'd you get into it and whatare you working on right now
that you're really excitedabout?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (01:07):
Okay, so, majority in the middle is a
non-partisan non-profitorganization, and we've work to
equip and empower civility andgood civic.
And political engagements.
And we do that by creatingspace, sometimes metaphorical
space and sometimes actual,literal spaces for people to
(01:27):
come together no matter sort ofwhat their personal political
persuasion is.
You know.
Left, right center, not youknow, whatever.
Anybody who, who comes to ourtable in good faith, we have a
spot for them.
we try to elevate the, theconduct of people who are sort
of acting like we want to seepoliticians conduct themselves.
(01:51):
And we do that by.
you know, using our platform andthen also encouraging
traditional media organizationsto, to highlight their work and
not just have all the spotlighton the people who are
representing all of thedivision.
And then we also work on a thingthat we call structural
(02:13):
partisanship, which is therules, customs, and sometimes
even physical infrastructurethat divides people and keeps
them divided primarily inlegislative, settings.
So we got a lot going on.
We just in September releasedour third stated bipartisanship
report, which is an analysis ofall of the bills that are here
heard here in Minnesota, and thethe partisan authoring of those
(02:37):
bills.
The, the first one we sort of,we sort of accidentally got into
this work, but the, the veryfirst.
Report showed a lot of thehidden bipartisanship that was
happening when people werecoming together and authoring
bills.
That wasn't showing up at theend of the session when
everything was getting voted onparty line votes.
(02:57):
So, we got to release that andwe did a little statewide tour,
with, with, with electedofficials and did a bunch of
press conferences around thestate.
Tried to make that coverage alittle more relevant for
different communities.
And yeah, we're about to haveour purple party which is a
thing that we do every year.
(03:17):
The second Saturday afterelection day.
We have a party no matter whowins, no matter who loses.
Everybody is welcome.
Generally some people like waituntil after the outcome of
elections to say if they reallywanted to come to a party or
not.
But we do that and, and that's areally, really fun thing to do.
So we're getting ready for thaton November 15th.
(03:39):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (03:40):
Very nice.
Very nice.
All right, let's jump into oneof the things you mentioned and
we talked about earlier, whichis this, this structural
partisanship and, and, and someof the things that get in the
way perhaps even at within theirown caucus.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (03:53):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (03:54):
is, right.
So what, what are some of thethings that you've noticed that
get in the way perhaps that thepublic doesn't know or common
knowledge about, about howthings work in that regard?
In, in finally getting somethingexecuted at the legislative
level?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (04:09):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (04:10):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (04:11):
well, Minnesota is a really
interesting place for a study ofbipartisanship and sort of an
analysis of, of what are those,you know, what are those things
that are, that are getting inthe way?
Because, you know, all, allkinds of Americans say, oh, well
we want our elected officials toget along.
And people, you know, campaignthe first time and they're like,
oh yeah, I'm gonna go and I'mgonna work across the aisle.
(04:31):
And then those things.
to not happen.
And so I did a lot of researchgoing into this and it turned
out I had been noodling on theidea for about 15 years before
we launched in 2020.
but one of the things that Iheard over and over from
legislators.
Was that the opposition toworking across the aisle
(04:52):
generally doesn't come from theother side of the aisle.
It comes from your own caucus.
There's some some sort of likegood hearted and then some like
really.
Organizational barriers put upbecause generally leadership
wants the caucus to sticktogether and wants everybody to
toe the party line.
(05:13):
And so sometimes they needincentives to brave, do that
brave thing, and work withsomebody across the aisle on,
something that their entirecaucus may not entirely agree
with.
So in Minnesota this year.
It's a, it's, we, we sort ofaccidentally wound up with an
(05:33):
opportunity to have a lot ofbipartisanship because our house
of Representatives, it's Houseof Representatives in, in
Minnesota, you know, inCalifornia, it's the assembly.
Our House of Representatives istied with 67 members in the
Democrats and 67 members in theRepublicans.
so you need constitutionally 68votes for anything to pass.
(05:56):
Which means you've gotta havebipartisanship on everything
that goes through.
Which in a good way means thereare a lot of people who are
getting an opportunity to workmembers of the other party in
ways that they haven't ever hadto.
it's also giving a lot of coverfor people who, who really are
(06:17):
interested in working across theaisle.
You know, it, it's not becausethey want to or because they're
brave, it's because they haveto.
And that gives'em a little coverwith constituents who might
otherwise be a little irritatedabout that.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (06:31):
Yeah.
What, and, and, and when we sayworking across the aisle, what,
what does it specifically meanto, in, for.
A Republican to supportsomething that's Strat typically
not supported.
What are the barriers that arepreventing that person from,
from supporting, whether it'sinternal or external?
What are some of the real thingsthat that happen in, in, in
(06:54):
reality,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (06:55):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (06:56):
you know.
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (06:57):
there's a couple.
The first one is that, and, andmost people don't understand
this until you, until you get,you know, you really inner
workings of a legislative body.
The primary organizing, ssituation that, you know, people
think, you know, okay, you'vegot a house, you got a Senate,
or you got an assembly and aSenate and you've got the
(07:17):
different districts and you'vegot the parties and whatever.
The main organizing factions arethe caucuses.
So the House, Republican Caucusand the house in Minnesota, the
Democratic Party is actually theDemocrat Farmer Labor Party.
So if I say DFL, that's whatthat is.
That's Democratic party in, inMinnesota.
So it's like the house, DFLcaucus and the house, the, the
(07:40):
Senate DFL caucus and the SenateRepublican Caucus, those four.
much sort of act likeindependent organizations.
They have their own structures,they have their own seniority,
they have their own leadership,they have their own staff, so,
so sometimes it is Democratsversus Republicans, and
(08:01):
sometimes it's the house versusthe Senate.
And, and actually that, thatcame up a lot this year because
as much as people expected those67 people to fight against the
other 67 people at the end ofthe day, they really had to come
together and be team houseagainst the Senate to try to
advance what, what they wanted.
So there's that.
There's also one of the, one ofthe biggest barriers to working
(08:25):
across the aisle that I haveheard from legislators is their
constituents.
And is the primarily the reallyactive constituents, the, the
party, party elders, but partyactivists who are the ones that
show up and do the endorsements.
And so they have a really hardtime.
(08:48):
Most of the party endorsementsfor legislative seats, like in
2026, every single one of ourlegislators is, is on the
ballot.
The house is elected every twoyears.
Our Senate is elected fouryears, four years, and two
years, which has to do withredistricting.
But this is one of those yearswhere everybody is on the
ballot.
And so they will all have to gothrough.
(09:09):
Endorsing conventions, in latewinter, early spring, so
February, March, April, in theresomewhere.
Which means their primaryaudience for a few months those
people who have votes in the theparty caucuses about whether
they're gonna get theendorsement or not.
(09:30):
And as you can imagine, the.
Language that you use and theopinions and the priorities of
200 very committed partyactivists is probably different
than the general population.
Or your constituents who are, donot share that party
(09:53):
affiliation.
So,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (09:54):
I don't know if the right term for
those folks.
I don't know if the right termfor these particular folks.
I think it may be partiallysqueaky wheel.
Is usually a good term todescribe People that like
continue to do the thing andhave the loudest voice and push
on the issue.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (10:08):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (10:09):
wheel a good term to describe these
types of.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (10:12):
it's, I think it's a good term.
And they, I mean, they're also,they're the ones that have the
power.
They are delegates to theendorsing convention.
If you don't get theendorsement, you still do have
the option to go to a primary toget, to get that party spot on
the ballot in November.
But a lot of people don't havethe desire or don't have the
(10:32):
resources to run againstsomebody else who may have
gotten the endorsement.
all the way until our, like ourprimary elections aren't until
August, which is a thing that Ithink universally nobody likes
because in August the only thingthat people in Minnesota are
doing is, is trying to beoutside.
'cause it's one of the monthsthat we can.
(10:54):
So, so it like, it takes a lotit takes a lot of resources.
It takes a lot of grit to run aprimary contest.
And I will tell, like, there isnot a single legislator that I
know who is more afraid of achallenger across the aisle you
know, like of the other partythan they are a, a primary kind
(11:15):
of candidate, primary andchallenger those are much harder
races to run.
For most
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (11:22):
When you say harder, you mean, you
just mean the, the, the chancesof winning,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (11:26):
Well, and just, it means that you have
to, you know, you have to sortof retreat to the fringes with
your language and with whatyou're trying to do.
And,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (11:33):
right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (11:34):
so in some districts it's not as
big of a deal as like, okay, soI live in Minneapolis, which is
a very sort of blue city.
That doesn't mean that, youknow, moderates and Republicans
don't live here.
It's just like.
We're, we're outnumbered by alot.
so the district that I used tolive in my house member has had
(11:55):
the DDFL endorsement, democraticendorsement ran unopposed two
years ago.
And and she got 93% of the vote.
She had no opponent whose namewas on the ballot, and yet 7% of
the people in the district whovoted wrote somebody else in or
(12:16):
didn't vote for her.
Goes to show, like even in thedistricts that are super red or
super blue, like every electedofficial has constituents that
they are supposed to representdidn't vote for them.
But it's it, it's, it's easierto in districts like that where,
(12:36):
you know, 90% of the people are,are, are with you most of the
time.
The real contest is the primary,you know, if you have multiple
candidates from one party, andthis could be the same as, you
know, in Greater Minnesota whereyou get some of those deep red
districts, whoever gets throughthe primary is probably gonna
skate against.
Against their, their oppositeparty opponent if they even have
(12:57):
one.
So that's where it gets, it getsa little more difficult because
you know, you have to play tothat particular audience.
And sometimes people are morethan happy to, maybe that's, you
know, why they got intopolitics.
There are deep red or deep blueand that's what they wanna do.
But some, particularly the onesthat live in the more purple
districts have a harder time ofthat because they risk
(13:18):
alienating the people who aren'tthose party delegates.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (13:22):
Right.
Well, it also sounds like a bitof an activation energy issue,
right?
Like once you have the momentum,it's a lot easier and people
know you.
But getting to from zero to oneis hard, right?
Like, like if you don't, if youdon't have a community or an
audience or a following andyou're like, I have good ideas,
well.
That's great, but this person isbeing listened to by a quarter
(13:44):
million people and you're beinglistened to by none.
So how do you get in, in, justfrom an awareness standpoint, a
branding awareness standpoint,how do you do that?
And it's really hard.
And unfortunately, I know evenin California, for example you
know, you get access once youare in the Senate for assembly
to a massive voter registrationemail list
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (14:06):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (14:08):
like.
The Senate, it's like, you know,I, a quarter million, half a
million.
It depends on certain things,but like, it's just, it's
massive.
So then you're like, okay, howdo you even, how do you even
start to do that if you, unlessyou have already built that
somehow,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (14:23):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (14:23):
no, there, it's just an audience at
some point.
It's an audience and brandingexercise.
So like, so the first step islike, okay, you have an idea.
Oh, you wanna run?
Great.
How are you gonna go from zeroto one?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (14:37):
Yeah.
It's hard.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (14:39):
This is what they're doing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (14:41):
you know it.
It's interesting you mentionedin my bio, like I worked for
political campaigns for a reallylong time and that was either as
a volunteer or as a, as a paidstaff.
And then I got out of that and Iused to do a thing that I called
pre-campaign consulting, thatwas I would work with people who
were interested in running foroffice.
At some point, like not rightthen.
(15:02):
So this wasn't how do you doorknock or how do you fundraise or
how do you create a message or,you know, what do you need to
know about yard signs?
Way less than more people wantto know about yard signs.
You'd need to know way lessabout yard signs.
But what we would work on is youknow, becoming known in your
community if you are looking foran endorsement not having the
(15:23):
first time you ever show up.
To one of those precinctmeetings being when you're
trying to get the endorsement,no, you need to go a
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (15:29):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (15:30):
of time to
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (15:31):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (15:32):
your point, to start building that
audience.
And that's one of the ways thatis, is really helpful for
candidates to look at.
Sometimes even like, you know,you gotta run multiple times.
Your first raise something likeit there, there's a, I can't
find the the stat, but it'ssomething like 97% of first time
candidates lose.
(15:52):
Like 97% of first timecandidates lose
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (15:55):
Even at local elections, even, even
at the.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (15:57):
Yeah.
And that's that could be reallydaunting, especially if first
time candidates have a, a badexperience running and losing.
I mean, you could run and loseand still have a good experience
if you, if you frame it up theright way.
And if like the reason that youlose.
Is it sort of your fault, orsomething that you didn't know
(16:18):
that trips you up?
So,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (16:21):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (16:21):
I, I used to do that and that was,
that was really fun.
Because it, it gave us anopportunity to say, you know,
who are you cons?
Who are your constituencies?
Who is your network?
Who do you need to know?
Where do you.
Where are the places you need toknow?
And that actually I think helpeda lot.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (16:37):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (16:37):
'cause that's the thing, if, if a
candidate runs and doesn't winand never runs again, like that
can be a huge swing and a missfor some communities.
Especially because the otherpiece about first time
candidates, first timecandidates usually have a lot of
people around them.
for whom it's also their firstexperience of electoral
(16:59):
politics.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:00):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (17:01):
has a bad experience and their
family has a bad experience andtheir neighbors have a bad
experience, then,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (17:06):
just drives people further and
further away.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (17:10):
Yeah, it well, for sure.
And you're also putting your,your entire life under a
microscope.
So, and, and your family too.
And now with political violenceand.
There's stuff going on.
It's, it's quite scary to, to,to say, let me enter that game.
It's added yet another barrierto entry, not just activation,
energy and building a community,having better ideas, motivating
people to believe in you,believing your ideas are better
(17:31):
than other people's.
That you have the, you have allthe fix, you have the fixes,
right?
Well, now you have to worryabout political violence.
If you get too big, then youknow, are people, are your ideas
a little too much for somecrazy.
People.
And, and that adds unfortunatelyanother barrier to entry.
What do you think is, where arewe right now in terms of like,
(17:54):
the type of people, so given the97% statistic that you've,
you've mentioned given how hardit is with activation energy to
get to from zero to one to evenbe considered in a race like
that.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (18:05):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (18:06):
Right.
Especially at the state level, Imean.
Even at local levels, it's,it's, it's challenging.
So, what do we need to do toovercome these things?
Plus the political violence, thefears of getting involved so
people can, the right people canbubble up and start getting
elected.
'cause right now there's such asmall number of people who fit
(18:26):
into this, this mold.
It's like a certain type andstyle of person.
It's not the engineers.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (18:35):
right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (18:35):
And the entrepreneurs quite as much
you know,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (18:38):
the Are really high.
Elected office also doesn't payvery well, and none of us
actually have free time.
I mean, I don't know a singleperson who just, you know, at
the end of the day sits andstairs at the wall for an hour
and doesn't move.
Like we're all doing things withour time.
And so part of the challenge isfiguring out what trade-offs
there's gonna.
Are you gonna be stepping awayfrom work?
(18:58):
Are you gonna be stepping awayfrom your family?
We have made serving inelectoral office in this
country, like really, reallyunpleasant.
And
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (19:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (19:07):
think, geez, I wish I had a silver
bullet, but there's, there'sreally like 14 or 15 things that
we can probably do.
I think the first one is havinga little more support, a little
more respect for people who areserving in office.
The.
The social media comments thatthey have to deal with and the,
the harassment that's gottastop.
(19:29):
And like, I know, I know a guywho has served in office and he
is, he's running for anotheroffice and when people send him
nasty emails, he writes themback and says, you know, thank
you for your email.
Let's go to coffee and talkabout this.
And of course, almost nobodytakes him up on it because they
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (19:48):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (19:49):
wanna have a conversation.
They want to, you know, send anasty gram to somebody that they
don't know.
And I mean, I, I think there's,there's gotta be something to be
said about like our, likeeverybody's sort of mental
health threshold.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (20:06):
Yeah, these keyboard warriors and
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (20:08):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (20:09):
warrior type people.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (20:10):
And we're all very angry and we're
all very scared, and it seemslike a lot of this all the time.
And we wanna figure out who topoint that at and who to sort of
do harm to.
And we're, we're kind of doingit to each other which is
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (20:22):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (20:22):
it up more.
So anyways, a little morekindness on social media.
Another thing is, there are, inmy mind there are two different
kinds of people who, who run foroffice people who are more of an
activist or people who are moreof an analyst.
I used to say activist andjudge, but analyst is actually a
better, a, a better sort of termfor this.
So activists.
(20:44):
running for office because theyhave the solution to a problem
or they have something that theyvery much care about, whether
that is homelessness orimmigration or you know, the
taxes, you know, their propertytaxes or their kids' school or
whatever, they come in.
They have either volunteeredwith an advocacy organization or
(21:05):
they've been involved in, inthat in some way, and they bring
those experiences and those sortof solutions.
To the table.
To the table.
Like that's, that's their, theirreason for running for office.
I know how to fix this problem.
I wanna fix this problem.
Like, here I come.
I have found there's a lot ofadvocacy organizations who are
(21:25):
really pushing their theirsupporters and sometimes their
staff to run for office.
That is one way to get from zeroto one is to have an
organization like that behindyou.
But, but so that has, that has,people with a particular mindset
to to elected office.
And the challenge is once theyget elected, then they have to
make decisions.
And if you come in with yoursolution in mind, with your mind
(21:48):
made up,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (21:50):
Okay.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (21:50):
your statistics and stuff, you're not
really interested in theconversation, you're like, I
have this solution then thatmakes it much harder to
negotiate or deal with.
Deal with you know, your otherelected officials, an analyst or
like a juror the people who say,we've got a challenge.
(22:12):
I want to come help.
But I don't necessarily have asolution in mind.
Like, you know, you go in andyou sit on a jury and the jury
is presented with evidence andthis and the situation, and then
they have to get together withthe other jurors and make a
decision.
Those people generally, likethey don't know as much about
one thing.
They generally know a lot moreabout a lot of little things.
(22:35):
And they have a very open mind,which means they generally work
more slowly than the activistslife.
And there are activists andjurors on both sides.
Like, you know, you can haveright or left, it doesn't really
matter.
Old and young doesn't reallymatter.
but when you get those, thosetwo.
Kinds of, of elected officials,you get'em like sort of in the
(22:56):
same space.
Then they butt heads even ifthey agree on things just based
on how they want to approach thejob.
It's like, I want to enact thissolution, or let's talk about
the options to this solution.
We may get to yours.
But that's, that's one of thethings.
And so that's one of the reasonsthat I always try to look for.
(23:19):
People who are more like jurorsthan activists activists have a
place in democracy.
But the more jurors that youhave, the more likely you are
going to find consensus onissues.
and have people who are willingto, to compromise and
collaborate and, and notnecessarily just get thumbs up
(23:39):
for the, the thing that theycame in with.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (23:41):
I love that there, we, we need to
have an index, the juror toactivist index.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (23:47):
Wouldn't that be
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (23:47):
Right?
And what should it be?
50 50?
Should it be 75%?
J what you're, what you'resuggesting, I think, and I've
I've, something I've thoughtabout for a long time is why are
people not studying politicalphilosophy?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (24:00):
Hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (24:01):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:02):
dull.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:05):
It's, it's, I mean, but there's,
there's, there's brilliantpeople, John Locke and Thomas
Payne and like all these like,right, like people who have, who
have thought through the, the,the f because it's not, it's not
a science
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (24:20):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (24:21):
to create.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:22):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (24:23):
in art.
It's how to create a perfectsociety has not been discovered
yet.
We've been working on it forthousands of years.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:29):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:29):
one's figured it out.
Plato had great ideas,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (24:32):
Uhhuh,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (24:32):
thought he knew what he was, right?
Like we and we, we've had to gothrough iterations of what
ultimately is the mostutilitarian utilitarian approach
where most people can be mosthappy with the best quality of
life.
Most often.
And at the moment, it's the bestit's ever been, given all the
problems.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (24:49):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (24:50):
We're still not, we're not hitting
people with clubs.
One outta three people aren'tdying by, you know, because they
have different eyebrows thanyou.
When they're blindsided with a,a, a big, you know, wooden club.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (25:00):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (25:01):
You know, that's what it used to be
like.
You.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (25:03):
I be really fun.
A, a John Locke on TikTokchannel explaining political
philosophy in 30 seconds orless.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (25:12):
Yeah, there's, and you know what?
There's actually a lot of goodcontent if people were more
philo philosophical.
And I think that aligns withyour juror comment because I
think what you're suggesting iscan you weigh out pros and cons
and see the Right.
So, and, and, and a philosopheris essentially someone who does
that well without taking alarge.
(25:32):
Emotional investment on eitherside.
They can weigh them outobjectively and a juror does
that, is supposed to be able todo that.
And they study philosophy.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (25:41):
Uhhuh.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and in practice you know,the, the jurors generally have,
a little more comfort withambiguity, and they bring more
voices to the table, actually.
Because it's, it's not that the,the person who's coming in is,
(26:03):
has to be more
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (26:04):
it's a great line.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (26:05):
But the one place where activists
really do excel is in anattention economy, like an
activist can explain their thingto you in 30 seconds.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (26:17):
Right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (26:18):
A juror has a really hard time to
do that.
So we are very much in anattention economy and elected
officials have had to be it's,it's really hard to.
Well, it's, it's the whole, thenext 10 words thing from, from
West Wing.
What are the next 10 words?
Like 10 words is great.
What are the next 10 words?
Tell me the next 10 words.
I am an enormous fan ofeverything.
(26:39):
Aaron Sorkin, by the way.
A lot of us are I used to have,I actually used to have a sticky
note.
This is a sidebar.
I used to have a sticky note onmy monitor.
And I do a lot of writing andthe sticky notes said what would
Aaron Sorkin write?
And after a couple years I hadto take it down because I
realized it was so much pressureI wasn't getting anything done.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (26:59):
A little.
A little too hard.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (27:01):
right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (27:02):
That's funny.
shannon-watson_1_10-2 (27:03):
activists work really well in the
attention economy and so theyhave a much better.
Embrace of how we are doingcommunication these days.
And so that el that, that gives'em a little extra lift in that
getting from zero to one,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (27:21):
I see,
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (27:22):
problem.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (27:22):
see.
Yeah.
They excel in the attentioneconomy and the rage bait and
the, in the, in the click baitand the how to, you know, get
people,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (27:29):
it down to something really simple.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (27:31):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (27:32):
know,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (27:32):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (27:32):
don't like my
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (27:33):
Mm-hmm.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (27:33):
are a terrible person
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (27:34):
Yep, yep.
Right.
What click advertising dollars.
So, and that's, and that's,that's an unfortunate reality
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (27:45):
It is.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (27:46):
because it's taking the, the emotional
impulsive, often even whimsicalmentality and behavior of what
people feel in the momentwithout considering
implications, consequences, andperspective.
And it, and it throws it at thetop of the list and, and.
You know, I'm, I'm glad there'sat least some recognition that
(28:09):
this is happening.
And it seems like people know,if you tell them this, they'll
be like, oh, yeah, yeah, ofcourse.
But they're the first ones toparticipate in it, so it's very,
and they'll, well, let's justplay the game, you know, and
some people don't wanna playthat game.
And if you play, how do you playthat game in a way that is not
just doing, you know, click baittype stuff, but, but you said
something really interesting,you said comfort with ambiguity.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (28:31):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (28:33):
This is an interesting you have to do
a lot of self work,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (28:37):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (28:38):
right?
To, to, to be able to feelcomfortable in, in ambiguous
spaces, especially ones that arefear, where there's fear can
come up and you've got tr pasttraumas or whatever triggers you
to get real invested in thisthing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (28:53):
Yes.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (28:54):
do you, how do you put that aside
and say, oh man, wait a second.
150 million people thinkdifferently than me
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (29:02):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (29:03):
Even with all that, how do you
suppress those things so thatyou can let even have a, be
comfortable and ambiguity
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (29:11):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (29:12):
embrace a reason rational conversation.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (29:15):
Right.
Well, and that, I think that'sone of the places where, you
know, I tell people all the timethat if they want better
political camp, you don't reallywant, like, I don't like the
people on my ballot.
Okay.
Then either run for officeyourself or that may you, you
may not be the best person onthe ballot but think of the best
person, you know, like who isthe best person, you know.
(29:37):
And encourage them to run foroffice.
And 99 times out of a hundredthey will laugh at you.
'Cause they'll be like, I don'twant any part of
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (29:43):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (29:44):
But that's the thing.
It's the people who are, youknow, just kind of the best
people, the smartest the mostthe most compassionate, the most
thoughtful you know, the, theones who.
you know, have a, a breadth anddepth of life experience.
That gives them an interestingperspective.
(30:05):
And those are not always thepeople who talk the most or talk
the loudest actually.
They're often not the personwho's talking the most or the
person who's talking theloudest.
Loudest.
probably not.
And I say that as somebody whotalks a lot and talks pretty
loud, so
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (30:22):
I think there's a reason for that,
I think.
I think one of the reasons, andlook, I find myself thinking
about this a lot also, where youwanna reply to something and say
something and then you go.
What are the chances you'regonna convince someone of your
argument on a thread, on a con?
Like you think that, and you'regonna spend the time to convince
people of, of, of your idea.
(30:43):
Like when, you know, when yousay like, we, we've had this is
it When you have something tocommunicate to you communicate
via SMS, do you communicate viaemail?
Do you, is it a phone call?
All that.
And sometimes in the businessworld or in anyway, you know,
you have to say, ah, I don'tthink I'm gonna send that in an
email.
I think that's a phone call,right?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_1 (31:00):
I had
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (31:00):
Things.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:01):
call like right before I got on the
thing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (31:04):
It's a phone,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:05):
call me'cause she was like, I don't
wanna put this in writing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (31:08):
right?
They've taken all the worstthings that are not meant for
text messages, you know, and,and, and they've put it in
hateful short messaging,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (31:17):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (31:17):
which is not where it belongs to get
to the bottom of points, and noone is gonna be like, oh, man.
You're so right and all thethousand people on who've
commented on this are now gonnaagree with you and change their
perspective.
You may get a few thumbs up, youmay get a couple people go,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like, you're not gonna shiftanything on that co on that
thread with that comment withyour long, thoughtful response
(31:39):
on that one thread.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (31:41):
That when people post on social media
and they have arguments onsocial media it actually, it
doesn't it, it almost neverchanges anybody else's mind.
But what it does is itreinforces your position in your
own mind.
So it shoves you further downyour rabbit hole.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (31:56):
Oh, oh boy.
Yeah, I, I'd have to imagineit's so much more weighted in
the way that you're talkingabout than like the number of
people.
You think it affected.
So it's not a good use of timeor your brain power or
intellect.
You're better intellect, you'rebetter off spending time with
your kids traveling reading abook you like and, and, and
perhaps writing something thatcan be shared in a much
(32:16):
different way.
More, more effectively.
But that comment on social, Ithink people gotta stop that.
It's like, stop.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (32:23):
You know, it's interesting, I've
read the, I have always been theperson to read the comments, and
I know the rule is don't readthe comments.
Comments that I know are notcoming from bots, I generally
still read.
I still read because thecomments that people will put on
like moderated forums it, it maynot be it may not be super
(32:43):
nuanced.
Those are what people reallythink.
the, the best way to make surethat you're not gonna solve a
problem is to ignore half of thepeople who are engaged in a
problem and not know, like, youknow, the, the first step to
solving any problem isacknowledging that there is one.
(33:05):
the first step to overcoming anyargument is to find out that
there is one,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:10):
Yeah, that's right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (33:12):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (33:13):
no, just versus noticing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (33:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:16):
Yeah,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (33:16):
and listening and, and then not
immediately discounting likethat person said that thing
because they are
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (33:23):
yeah.
Well the, you know, a good testand, and could be sometimes take
the hardest possible issue.
Gun control, abortion you know,any of these like top line
things, which in my opinion,there's not a right answer for,
because if there was, it wouldbe, it wouldn't.
It's a philosophical problem,not an obvious scientific
(33:47):
answer, and enough pe thingsthat are divided 50 50.
It's not like there's dumbpeople on one side and smart
people on the other side.
Like there's, there's obviouslyreal intellectual rationale and
concern.
For, for any of these sides, ifthings are di, when things are
divided 50 50, you didn't win.
If you won by 51%,
shannon-watson_1_10 (34:07):
Absolutely.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (34:08):
win.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:08):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (34:09):
you know, so.
shannon-watson_1_10-2 (34:10):
actually, I'm in support, like when we
talk about federal government,like, which I don't talk about
very often, but like the 60 per60 votes you need in the Senate.
I think that's great becausestill that's not an overwhelming
majority, but that's, that'smore than just
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (34:27):
Right, right.
It's funny to think about.
It's like, yes, we won.
It's like, sort of a zero sumgame.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:34):
Yeah.
Oh
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (34:35):
Okay.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (34:35):
We could,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (34:36):
Right.
So,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (34:37):
on zero sum games.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (34:38):
oh, we won the abortion thing this
time.
It's like, hmm.
Sort of a zero sum game.
You won, someone else lost.
shannon-watson_1_1 (34:45):
permanently,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (34:47):
Exactly, and it's, and it's just too
complicated for people to thinkthat there's a right answer.
And anytime anyone comes up andis like, oh, I can solve the
health insurance problem soeasily, all you have to do is
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (34:57):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (34:57):
this one thing.
And it's like, wow, you shouldrun for office and make that
happen because if, because allthese very smart people, if not
figured out that brilliant
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (35:07):
Right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (35:08):
minute solution to a hundred year old
problem.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (35:11):
And that's the thing.
I mean, we're, we're left, likethe easy stuff is done.
We are left with the hard stuff.
You know, you,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (35:17):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (35:19):
and a brilliant, brilliant friend of
mine.
Catalyzed for me the gunargument several years ago.
So she is a woman, she is a gunowner.
She carries a gun, she has a, apermit to carry, a concealed
carry permit.
She was going to school and thecampus had a no guns on campus
(35:39):
policy.
And so one of the things thatshe wanted to do is she wanted
to, she wanted the school tochange that.
because she wanted to have her,her gun with her as she does
most of the time.
And her thing was that thechallenge with guns is that gun
(36:01):
makes her feel safe and we comeinto a problem when her gun
makes me feel unsafe.
Like that's, that's the thing.
Her gun makes her feel safe.
Her gun makes me feel, andactually her gun doesn't make me
feel unsafe, but, you know,whatever.
(36:21):
Like we're talk beyond justwho's, who's feeling of safety?
Are we gonna lean into and, andhold up.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (36:32):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (36:32):
also when you're talking about
something that's fear based.
That's not the rational part ofyour brain, that that's, that's
the limbic part of your brain.
That's the reptilian, the oldestpart.
And to your point, you can't,you can't rationalize your way
out of fear.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (36:48):
No,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (36:49):
So
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (36:49):
you can't.
shannon-watson_1_10- (36:50):
brilliant.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (36:51):
Yeah, I think that's a, an interesting
one of the fundamental,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (36:55):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10- (36:56):
Philosophical.
Arguments of of, of why it'scomplicated.
There's a lot of'em, I think.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (37:02):
And that's, and that's one of the
reasons that we use that tactic.
And I say we as people in the,you know, sort of politics
industry, we as the tactics tomake know, very dry policy
considerations into somethingthat people are going to have an
emotional reaction to.
Because
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:20):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (37:20):
can't, you can't rationalize your way
out of that if they are afraid.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:25):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (37:25):
it is that you're trying to promote
or trying to stop, like
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (37:30):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (37:31):
easy.
You just got now.
Now the next part is you justhave to keep'em afraid or angry
to do what you want.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (37:37):
Right, right.
So the, the, a lot, there's somany human psychology underlying
problems with this andfear-based emotional responses
to things and sense of selfpurpose and like why people even
engage in the first place.
Like, you're not gonna doanything about it.
Why are you even read somethingelse?
It's just the craziest thing.
I've had this conversation withway too many friends and family,
(37:58):
like, all you're doing isthere's so much beauty in the
world.
Go and join if you're, if youcan't, is it Maya Angelou, this
famous quote, I forget who said,if you can't, if you can't, uh
uh.
If you don't like it, fix,change it.
If you can't change it, changeyour attitude.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (38:12):
yeah.
Something like that.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (38:13):
Right.
It's like you're gonna spend allthis time hating.
You're not doing anything.
You're gonna just go work onyour business and read something
nice.
Go read books about art andbeauty and music, and enjoy
life.
You're so frustrated and you'reso privileged and you're just,
you feel bad that you'reprivileged to live in America in
the top 1% of people in West LosAngeles and have everything, and
you don't have to worry abouthot water or plumbing or
(38:34):
anything like that.
You got all this incredible, thefood is always fine.
The water's always fine.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (38:40):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-20 (38:40):
doorstep, and all you wanna do is go out
and hate things that you're notgonna do anything about.
I, I don't, I don't get thatmentality.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (38:46):
of us push the message that if
you're, you know, like the, the,the thing, if you're not
outraged, you're not payingattention.
I hate that.
Like,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (38:55):
I mean,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (38:56):
to
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (38:56):
no.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (38:57):
up, even though it, that's, that's
the entire point of,
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (39:01):
Yeah,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (39:01):
thing is
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (39:02):
that's right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (39:03):
up.
So yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (39:04):
So let's bring it back to, let's
bring it back a little tomajority in the middle.
I want to, I want to get alittle bit more about, so maybe
the most exciting thing you'reworking on right now.
And let's encapsulate thisconversation a little bit around
about what you are doing rightnow in your organization to, to
make some of these improvementsin our society.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (39:23):
Yeah.
So one of the things that we areworking on, we've got this whole
body of work that is, is just,it's just waiting to get off the
ground.
It, it is formulated, it's justwaiting to get off the ground.
But it is a focus on nonpartisanlocal officials.
So like, you know, thelegislature and the Congress,
those are partisan roles.
In Minnesota, every localelected office so that's county
(39:46):
commissioner, city council,mayor, school board, park board,
you know, supervisor, whatever.
Those are all legallynon-partisan offices.
They're not always functionallynon-partisan offices, but
they're legally non-partisanoffices.
And so we have spent the lastcouple of years talking with our
friends and doing research andtrying to figure out like how do
(40:08):
we keep the non-partisan officesnon-partisan?
How do we create communityaround nonpartisan offices and
people who hold them so that,you know, they have a community.
It's really hard to say.
No to an endorsement or to beinga, a member of a party because
so many things come along withthat.
(40:28):
And then also Minnesota's got, Idon't know if it's a significant
problem, but it depends on whoyou talk to and who's using it
but sort of a rural urbandivide.
And so, we
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (40:40):
I think that's the whole country.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (40:42):
Right.
Probably.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (40:43):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (40:44):
we have been convening some Zoom
groups.
It used to be that we wouldconvene a, a group of elected
officials for whatever reason,and we would spend the first
half of the call talking aboutwhatever we were had intended to
talk about.
And then we spent the other halfof the call when they would
basically be having a supportgroup meeting and talking about
(41:05):
zoning or pickleball.
Or how do you deal with the, thefrequent flyer constituents who
show up at every meeting andthey always have a comment about
something on the agenda.
Like, how do you, how do yourespectfully deal with them?
And so, so we, we put togetherthis whole thing that is, is
basically just that it's thesecond half of the meeting.
(41:26):
And created these cohorts ofsome people who are in rural
areas.
Some are in suburban, some arein urban.
And trying to mix those up sopeople can find commonalities
and, and then sort of like ideasof things that they might have
not thought of because it hadn'tapplied to them yet, or they can
exchange information.
So like that has been a reallycool thing to watch.
(41:48):
And then we've got, you know, abunch of other work that.
That is, is getting ready tojump off, but it's, it's all
based on that and creating thoserelationships and
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (41:56):
So, so the goal is to create a, a
non-par cities should benon-partisan.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:02):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1207 (42:03):
Is that the idea in, in.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:05):
Well, I mean, legally, those, those
those offices are, becausethey're not meant to be, you
know, there's no such thing asa, as a DFL or a Republican
pothole
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (42:15):
Right, but what makes the city
partisan?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (42:18):
The the when the endorsements when
local party units start doingendorsements and candidates feel
like they need to carry thatbanner.
There are some places inMinnesota where the party
endorsement is a, a big thing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (42:31):
You mean the city council?
The people on the city council,for example, let's just say
they're all Democrat.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (42:38):
right, right.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (42:38):
Which in many California cities they
are, they're just, all right.
I, I, so, okay, so now you have,so now, and, and so you're
suggesting that if we remove theendorsements, which is hard to
do, like you said,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (42:54):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (42:55):
from the democratic parties
endorsement of this candidatefor this position, and so well,
let's, let's say this.
So since it's.
Let's say that's a, the hardproblem is to prevent the, them
taking money for their campaignfrom these political parties.
How can we make sure that thecities themselves operated and
(43:19):
run by the city manager, forexample, which is separate than
the political body of the, ofthe council.
Kind of like a board ofdirectors and a CEO.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (43:31):
Exactly.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (43:32):
How do we make sure there, because
there's two versions of that.
One is let's make sure all thecandidates are nonpartisan.
The other is how do you makesure the city is, is, is making
sure that those candidates, evenif they are getting that money,
are not pushing political issuesthat could make them come off as
partisan.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (43:51):
Right.
Well, and that's, and that's agood question.
And the, the bigger problem fromour perspective is, there is
some mission creep when, youknow, they take on issues that
they're probably not that'sprobably not their focus or they
bring a, a partisan sort of lensto what, what's on the city
council agenda.
But also that just gives anotherlayer of, you know, my city
(44:16):
counselor isn't the same as me.
so that creates a divide andthat's an artificial divide
that.
Still in Minnesota, in a lot ofplaces it doesn't exist.
There are a couple of citieswhere it, it's a big thing.
And one of the things that wewere hearing from elected
officials the last couple ofyears was, live in that city.
(44:36):
I really don't want thissituation.
There's, there's, a couple ofpeople who have gone to the
endorsing convention.
Like they're, they're still amember of their party, but they
just aren't wearing that hat asa
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (44:49):
To,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (44:50):
There are a couple of'em that I know
of.
Who have gone to the endorsinginterview to tell the people
they really shouldn't beendorsing in that race because
it is a nonpartisan race and allof that.
There are always people who say,well, why don't you just.
Like ban endorsements, like havea law to ban endorsements.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (45:08):
mm-hmm.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (45:09):
your state California tried that in
the 1980s and it isunconstitutional.
So that's why we, we don't trythat.
So that's part of the, thechallenge, just like, with
legislative candidates and, andlegislative elected
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (45:21):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (45:22):
you know, you, you have to, you have
to figure out what are theincentives for
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (45:26):
Yep.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (45:27):
or not doing it.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (45:29):
Well, tell me what cities are first on
the list.
What do we, which cities aregonna commit to this behavior?
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (45:34):
Oh well, this is the thing.
It's, it's done withindividuals, so we're not asking
necessarily a, an entire city toright, to organizationally take
a position on this.
For a lot of them that would bevery awkward to have to do that.
And so we're, we're going.
by person.
And, you know, we've got the,the support groups who you know,
(45:55):
have, they do, they, theysupport each other and they
trade tips and tricks and hey,what can we do about this person
on our council who keeps doingthese really partisan things and
doesn't
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:06):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:06):
their hat is different and all those
things.
So it's
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:10):
Look, I know, I know a, I know so many
council members who would rathernot
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (46:18):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12 (46:18):
play the game
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:19):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (46:21):
and if they had a good reason or,
or, or they could have been,they, they could be supported in
a way to not.
Play the game.
They would,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (46:30):
Yeah.
And
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_120 (46:31):
and some are more.
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (46:32):
letting, letting your constituents know,
like a lot of constituents don'trealize that yes, there state
representative is gonna have aletter behind their name, but
their city council, or it isn't.
For good reason because
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:46):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_1 (46:47):
non-partisan offices and these are partisan
offices.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (46:49):
Yeah.
It's almost, you know, you knowwhat's even more interesting
that an individual.
At any level could not want toaspire to take a philosophical,
more centrist approach tothings,
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (47:03):
Mm-hmm.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (47:05):
right?
Because you think like, you'vegot all these groups and we're
the Democratic Party and theRepublican party, and they were
like, go blue, and whatever the,whatever it is, like, and then
you're like, don't you see, youknow, there's polarization and
you're playing into it like you,like people know.
But they choose to continue todo it for money, power.
Maybe they're really strong onlike one issue that they just
(47:27):
can't get over and, but youwould,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (47:30):
Di
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (47:31):
yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025 (47:31):
one of the things that really, I, I
find comfort in this, and as Iwas looking at division and all
these, just like, what are the,what are the basics of division?
One of the things that we do,like, we divide because we're
human.
It is part of our genetic codeto put people in, in groups or,
and out groups.
you with me or are you that you,are you us, or are you them?
(47:54):
that makes a difference whenyou're talking about, you know,
being in a political party ornot.
One of the things that we'redoing with the support groups is
reminding people they are notalone.
It's not them versus me, it'sthem versus us.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:10):
Right,
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (48:10):
Us isn't always as as visible
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:13):
right,
shannon-watson_1_10 (48:14):
situations.
So that's a i
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_ (48:15):
right.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2 (48:16):
that's a
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (48:17):
Yeah.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (48:17):
thing to get to do.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (48:19):
Alright, well, tell me how do people,
what do you want people to knowabout Majority in the Middle and
how do they get in touch withyou?
How do they sign up?
How do they join?
How do they lead in the movementthat you are creating here?
shannon-watson_1_10-23 (48:30):
Awesome.
One of the questions that we geta lot is are you just Minnesota
And we are just Minnesota rightnow.
That being said, our goal.
Is to to take what we learned inMinnesota and be able to
replicate it in other places.
So if you are interested and youdo not live in Minnesota, still
sign up anyway because maybeeventually we will get there.
So, our website is majoritymiddle.org.
(48:53):
Not majority in the middle.org.
I don't know who owns that.
I, I want to steal it with fromthem as soon as, as soon as I
can.
But I don't wanna ask'em if Ican buy it.
'cause then they'll think it'sa, a thing.
So anyways majority middle.org.
We suggest the first thing youdo is sign up for the
newsletter.
We only send like three a month.
That give gives you a littleview into what we're doing and
(49:17):
who we are and that kind ofthing.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-202 (49:19):
Awesome.
shannon-watson_1_10-23-20 (49:20):
Yeah.
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025 (49:20):
Shannon Watson thank you so much.
Best of luck on this, on thismission and I I enjoyed this
conversation
shannon-watson_1_10-23-2025_ (49:27):
Me
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_12073 (49:27):
I will
shannon-watson_1_10-23-202 (49:28):
This
evan-meyer_1_10-23-2025_1 (49:28):
speak to you.
This was good.
I will speak to you again soon.
Thanks for all the good, hardwork you're doing.
shannon-watson_1_10-23- (49:33):
Thanks, Evan.
Appreciate it.
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