Civility amongst Crisis: Shola Richards on the LA Fires, Intellectual Humility, Cognitive Bias

Navigating Civility: A Deep Dive with Shola Richards

Join me and special guest Shola Richards as we discuss the importance of civility in today's world. Shola shares insights from his latest book, 'Civil Unity,' and reflects on its relevance to relationships, workplace environments, and social media conduct. We touch on Shola's testimony before Congress, the impact of the LA fires, and the nuances of maintaining civility amidst disagreements. Shola also delves into the concept of intellectual humility, the dangers of radicalization, and shares personal anecdotes that highlight the power of kindness and understanding in transforming lives. Don't miss this profound conversation on how civility can change the world.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:15 Discussing the Book 'Civil Unity'
01:33 Survivor's Guilt and Helpers
02:22 Uncivil Narratives on Social Media
03:55 Cognitive Biases and Confirmation Bias
07:00 The Importance of Intellectual Humility
08:04 Personal Anecdotes on Bias
11:40 The Pie of Knowledge
13:59 Engaging in Civil Discourse
27:04 The Role of Local Politics
32:11 Emotional Intelligence and Inner Work
33:05 The Power of Civil Discourse
33:50 Navigating Hard Lines in Civility
38:01 Social Media and Civility
46:52 Radicalization and Substance Abuse

Website: Sholarichards.com
Civil Unity (Book): https://a.co/d/3RrtMXo

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About Evan Meyer

Tech entrepreneur and civic leader - he founded mygovtools.org, a platform to drive government efficiency, constituent representation, and civic engagement; BeautifyEarth.com, a platform accelerating urban beautification through art; and its sister nonprofit, transforming schools in underserved areas. He also co-founded RideAmigos.com, a platform that optimizes commuter travel globally. Previously, he served as District Director for the California State Senate and led many civic initiatives in Santa Monica. Through seminars and his podcast Meyerside Chats, Evan inspires civic engagement, innovation, and cultural growth.
He loves the outdoors, is a master of creative projects, is an avid muralist and musician, and finds the world fascinating in every regard.

Episode Transcript

Evan Meyer (00:01):
Shola Richards.
Good to see you.

Shola Richards (00:04):
Pleasure's all mine, Evan.
Thanks for having me, man.

Evan Meyer (00:07):
You are an amazing guy.
You've written an amazing book.
I have it right here.

Shola Richards (00:14):
Let's go.

Evan Meyer (00:15):
Civil unity.
An incredible book.
I think it's relevant to life.
I think it's relevant torelationships.
To how we speak to one anotherand how we get along.
You do tons of these workshopsfor for fortune.
50 companies and for workplacecivility.
You've been at the Congresstestifying around civility.

(00:38):
You are just a fascinating andwonderful spirit here on this
planet and, making the world abetter place through all of your
work and your voice.
So There's some heat in LA rightnow.
And I mean, I mean that as adouble entendre the fires are
obviously a catastrophe.
How have you experienced thisconversation around civility or

(01:03):
how people are, are maintainingor handling civility around this
very traumatic incident formany.

Shola Richards (01:11):
So interesting.
Yeah.
So at the time, first of all,thanks for having me and thanks
for bringing up the Congressthing.
Cause clearly they, I killed itwith Congress.
They're so civil now.

Evan Meyer (01:19):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (01:23):
you know, at the time of this recording, we're
like a week into this horrificfirestorm.
And first of all, before offcamera, we were talking about
like, Are you safe, Evan?
You can show us.
So we had to make sure that wewere both in a good place, I'm
this because thankfully my wifeand daughters and myself are
safe.
So that's good.

(01:43):
But of things that I do feel, Ifeel a little bit of.
of survivors guilt in a sense,because I am safe and I'm seeing
friends and family lose homes.
And been really, really tough towash.
I'm also experiencing this.
You know, there's an old saying,Rogers.
I don't know if you rememberhim, but he's that when bad

(02:03):
things happen, look to thehelpers.
So I'm watching these firstresponders doing such amazing
work and so grateful for them.
I also feel like in a sense, wealso have to keep an eye out on
the jerks too during this time,right?
The ones who are like pricegouging and doing weird things
when folks are looking forhomes, which is really, really
sad.
but also what I've noticed andwe're kind of both shared a

(02:26):
little bit off camera, kind ofour disdain for, for social
media, but I I'm on it often forwork and I'm noticed there's a
lot of, really sad, uncivilnarratives that are going around
about our city.
It's like, well, rich peoplelosing their homes and this,
that, and the other boohoo, whocares?

(02:47):
And it's like, my God, these arenot just.
The ultra wealthy, the peoplehave this weird idea around LA,
but these are school teachersand these are bus drivers and
these are military.
There are law enforcement.
These are folks who run andYMCA's and places that we gather
as community folks who.

(03:09):
Are just like any othercommunity in this country.
So joy in the pain of the city,because you have a weird idea
about what the city is like.
And most probably people haven'teven visited it.
They're making those assumptionsis upsetting.
So I'm experiencing one, thepositive of seeing people really
leaning into help, but it's alsothe sadness that people are

(03:30):
using.
This is an opportunity to kindof kick dirt on our city.
And we're really in a toughplace.

Evan Meyer (03:36):
Yeah.
And even, and even on top ofthat, the looting and exploiting
the situation at that level.
Right.
When, when there's evacuations,it's it, it, it, it feels like
at any time there's a, there's,there's an intimidation.
When something goes wrong, youknow, we start running through
those biases that you mentioned,right?
The cognitive biases a lot ofthe work of Daniel Kahneman

(03:58):
which has been, like, one of themost influential books for me as
well it makes, you change howyou think about information you
receive, right?
And it's like, the second youhear anything, or people hear
anything, the first thing is to,like, categorize.
And we go, those people.
Okay, those rich people.
And then let's make storiesabout how we feel about rich

(04:18):
people.
Right?
Or even on the other side,right?

Shola Richards (04:21):
sure.

Evan Meyer (04:22):
right, around the mismanagement conversation,
right?
There's a conversation aroundthat.
And surely there are tons oftons of ways that this could
have been dealt with, like, alot better.

Shola Richards (04:33):
Sure.

Evan Meyer (04:34):
it doesn't mean that everyone is automatically evil,
either.

Shola Richards (04:38):
That's the whole point.

Evan Meyer (04:40):
Right.
Yeah.

Shola Richards (04:42):
gone to this weird place where we've lost the
ability to think with nuance andthat's super frustrating.
It's like you're either a goodperson or you're a bad person.
You're either normal or you'rehell bound.
It's like all these differentthings that I feel is like,
well, maybe more than onethought can exist at once.
And when I mean, God knows, youknow, you know, the conflict,

(05:05):
we're getting really deepalready, like

Evan Meyer (05:07):
Yeah.
Right into it.

Shola Richards (05:09):
you know, a lot of folks really struggle to
process the conflict in theMiddle East, and it's so nuanced
and so challenging that it's notalways just like.
people are evil.
These people are not.
And it's like, no, it's not.
Maybe we have to have adifferent conversation where
there's multiple things at play,but it doesn't matter if we're
talking about the conflict inthe Middle East, things in our
country, things in ourworkplaces, things within our

(05:31):
families, ability to think morerobustly of just the hair
trigger lizard brain stuff thatyou see so commonly in our
discourse.
is how we get to change theworld.
But just want to get one persona day, just onto a place of like
going a little bit deeper thanjust their really quick,
reflexive thought around howthey feel about a situation or a

(05:53):
person.

Evan Meyer (05:55):
Yeah.
Well, and this, you know,there's a number of biases that
immediately, you know, how a lotof this confirmation bias,
right, of how quickly they puttheir, their story together and
how they just immediately makethemselves right.
You know, with like, oh, see, Iknew it.

(06:15):
Well, this guy was like thisforever, and she was like this
forever.
It's so much as, yeah.
Right.

Shola Richards (06:22):
I mean, like if you believe something for a
really, really, really, really,really long time, right.
Confirmation bias.
Let's just go with that one.
It's like, you want to justbelieve that it's true.
So you're going to do whateverwe can to support that.
We're going to like find as muchinformation, go to whatever
cable news stations, findwhatever articles or follows on
social that support what webelieve, the last thing you want

(06:43):
to believe is like, I've beenwrong about this all this time.
I don't want to believe that.
My whole life has been a lie.
I mean, we know it's not true,but that's how people feel
around this idea.
I mean, check people's searchfor validation more than they
search for information.
So my

Evan Meyer (06:59):
Right.

Shola Richards (07:00):
me to be more of an information seeker versus a
validation seeker.
And the question that heintroduced to me that I shared
in the book is kind of thiswhole idea around.
How do you know that?
And really having to go deeperand think about, cause I mean, I
do have opinions and when I knowthat when I put it up against
the rigor of how do you knowthat if like, well, because

(07:21):
that's what I feel, okay, wellthen I was

Evan Meyer (07:23):
Yep.

Shola Richards (07:23):
show will I do better.
Right.

Evan Meyer (07:25):
Yep.

Shola Richards (07:26):
and I, I had to like, I had to kind of live with
this because yeah, I haveopinions, but I also know that
my opinions may not be right.
And I think that's also kind ofan interesting way of looking at
the

Evan Meyer (07:34):
Yep.
Well, there's another one you dotoo in the book, which is, what
do you mean by that?

Shola Richards (07:38):
Oh, yeah,

Evan Meyer (07:39):
Right?
How do you know that, and whatdo you mean by that?
And essentially what I'venoticed that you've done is,
instead of reacting, You'reclarifying and letting people
figure out for themselves andsee if they can unravel that
without going deeper.
And if they really go deeperthan they may have some issues,
but if they can unravel, maybethey have just a little bit

(08:00):
issues and they're workingthrough and they know that they
didn't mean that, but they saidit the wrong way.
Right.
And that situation, I rememberyou were in the cab in the Uber
and yeah, it was and, and hesaid something.
Racially annoying, I guess,

Shola Richards (08:16):
basically said, like, you know, God, I wish more
black people were polite likeyou

Evan Meyer (08:21):
right?

Shola Richards (08:22):
it was like, first of all, it's a wild take,
right?
Because there's impolite andpolite people of all races.
Right.
So like the idea is he had ajudgment that black people were
impolite.
And the whole idea around thesebiases, usually they dissolve
when we increase the proximity,when we get closer to people,
it's the space betweenourselves.
That make these biases live.

(08:44):
So if I don't have any blackfriends, only time I see black
people are on my, my cable newsstation of choice and watching a
football game, then I'm going tohave assumptions.
If I don't have friends who Italk to or work with our real
conversations with, that's like,Oh, whoa.
So I might've been one of thefirst black people he's seen in
a hot minute and seeing like,Hey, you know, I'm pleased.

(09:05):
Thank you.
This, that, and the other, whoa,what's going on here.
It's like my buddy who.
It's also black.
We have this joke.
It's like when we run into somefolks that are like this, it's
like the talking dog phenomenon.
They're like, what?
A talking dog?
Oh my God.
It's like, it's, it's ridiculousbecause it's like, it's like,
it's so sad.
But like, you gotta laugh tokeep from crying.

(09:26):
It's like this whole idea oflike, what?
You can speak in multisyllabicwords and say things that are
like, obviously, but like, dude,if you don't have any people of
color in your life,statistically speaking, 40
percent of white Americans donot have one friend of color,
right?
That's wild stat 40%.

Evan Meyer (09:47):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (09:48):
So the idea is, so what I hope to do is to help
folks to like, Get outside thecomfort zone, meet people who
are different than from you.
So you can really start todissolve those biases in a way
in real time that you can startrealizing, Oh my God, this is
wild.
They even thought these thingsabout these people in the first
place.

Evan Meyer (10:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's well, and, and, and, andjust, you know, I, I don't think
it's even just black or someonewho looks different than you,
but the idea that enforces ourecho chambers essentially is our
social The people that we spendthe most time with, and if they
all think exactly like you,right?
Then, you really, it's sort oflike not tra deciding not to

(10:26):
travel,

Shola Richards (10:27):
That's a good,

Evan Meyer (10:27):
right?

Shola Richards (10:28):
Yeah.

Evan Meyer (10:29):
You're like, yeah, I think I won't go anywhere and
just live in my city forever andthink that everyone does
everything the way that peoplein L.
A.
do,

Shola Richards (10:36):
Oh, there's so much there.
Evan, I.

Evan Meyer (10:38):
Heh, heh, heh.

Shola Richards (10:40):
a perfect example of this cause we both
live in LA.
I had an event in Oklahoma city,speaking of that, and I'm
traveling to about, say like,Hey, where are you going?
She'll like, I'm going toOklahoma city.
Like, Oh, gross.
Those people have running water,those hillbillies, basically,
you know, they're all probablyinto incest or whatever.
It's like, well, okay.
So then I get to Oklahoma cityand.

(11:00):
And the Uber driver's like,where are you from?
L.
A.
God, you must, must suck havingto dodge gunfire as you take
your kids to school every singleday.
So it's like, it's like, both ofthese two, the L.
A.
person and the Oklahoma CityUber driver, were just using
their limited experience.
I asked them both.
Have you ever been to OklahomaCity before?

(11:20):
No.
Have you ever been to LosAngeles before?
No.
So they're making thesejudgments based on very limited
experience, anecdotal fallacy.
And here we are.
And so it's like helping peopleto realize that using limited
pieces of information to makethese sweeping judgments is
really a bad faith way to starta conversation.

Evan Meyer (11:40):
It's, it's a, it's like the pie of knowledge and
that limited information I thinkapplies to most of the things
that we have to experience.
Like the pie of knowledge thatany one person has at any given
time about any situation,historical, not historical,
current, not a current is sosmall.
It's such a small piece of, of,of the pie of what can change.

(12:06):
There's so much that couldchange how you feel about that.
Whatever you believe.
If one more piece of informationwas provided to you that you
didn't know before, like, didyou know that all the people in
this country, because of, ofwhatever you think, you thought
it was a good thing.
And all those people now had toleave their country.
And it's like, you didn't knowthat.
Did you, that some small countryhad to like change no longer

(12:28):
exists because of that.
You just thought it was all.
Whatever the headline of thepolicy that you read, thought
you were rah rah ing about,right.
And we, we forget to have the.
The, like you said, like we'retoo, there's no intellectual
humility and people are just sostaunch in their beliefs about
something.
Like, I don't know why you haveto be so staunch in your beliefs

(12:50):
about it.
You know?

Shola Richards (12:51):
But you made a really good point though.
And I want to unpack this alittle bit, what you just said.
So the pie of knowledge, but Ireally liked that term.
I'm gonna have to steal thatfrom you is, is, is super
limited.
Yeah.
So we don't have a ton, we don'thave all knowledge of all
things.
So when you're talking tosomeone who feels like a know it
all, look, I have teenagers, soI'm in know it all hell right

(13:14):
now with my two daughters, youknow, besides going a step
beyond how do you know that,which is a great start, you can
go even deeper and just be like,okay, so.
If I were to present you withadditional information, would
you be open to possibly changingyour mind about your view?
I mean, and it's interesting tobe like, no, my mind's made up.

(13:35):
You can't tell me, you can'ttell me nothing.
And I was like, all right, wellthen you already know what
you're getting yourself into.
So I like to challenge peoplelike, Hey, listen, I, there's so
much, there's a, I hear whatyou're saying about this.
This is, thank you for sharing.
I see this differently.
Are you open to hearing how Iview this situation?
Nope.
Nope.
Don't give a damn.
Okay, then that's a D.

(13:56):
N.
E.
Do not engage.
I feel

Evan Meyer (13:58):
Yeah.
Right.

Shola Richards (13:59):
the only way that we, the only way that we
can end unproductive conflict isto reduce our time participating
in it.
And I feel like what we do islike, no, let me go ahead and
fight.
You have this, this, you know,spinning match that everyone
loses.
And I'm, I'm About this idea.

(14:19):
And whether this isscientifically sound or not, who
cares?
But in my head, this makessense.
There are 20 people on 20percent of people who are locked
into one ideology, 20 percentand another side, which leaves
like 60 percent the squishymiddle that's open to possibly
having some dialogue.
They may have opinions.
That are strong, but they'realso open to like, all right, so

(14:42):
if I find someone who's open tohaving a conversation and I, I
walk away from people ever sinceI had this book, I'm getting so
many different politicalconversations and other things
that are difficult aroundwhether it's trans athletes in
sports or the middle East orabortion or the Southern border.
it's like, we still can walkaway.
Disagreeing, no minds arechanged, but we're discussing

(15:05):
this in a way that's robust, away that's meaningful where
people aren't feeling attacked.
We're not disrespecting peoplebecause they view the world
differently.
And hopefully we walk awaythinking about that was an
interesting way that sheexplained that.
I never really thought about itthat way.
I don't necessarily agree withit, I now can understand why she
would come to that conclusion

Evan Meyer (15:25):
That's right.

Shola Richards (15:26):
people down, which does nothing, but just
further entrench people intotheir views that you don't like
in the first place.

Evan Meyer (15:31):
Yeah.
It, it takes, and I don't knowwhy it takes so much to do.
I mean, we can unpack why, why,why we can unpack.

Shola Richards (15:42):
podcast episode,

Evan Meyer (15:43):
It's, it sure is, I, and just cause it's on that
train of thought, like what isit's, it's the escalated
commitments that people don'twant to feel like they were
wrong.
Maybe they, they got into aheated argument over
Thanksgiving and their wholefamily thinks one way.
And if they were to say, I'msorry, it would be too, too hard
to say I'm sorry.
Right.

(16:03):
Like how far did you go withthis already?
I think that's a huge one.

Shola Richards (16:07):
some

Evan Meyer (16:08):
Sunk costs.
And, and, and from theintellectual's humility, could
I, just swallowing that youcould have been wrong about it,
or even a little wrong, youdidn't even, it's not even right
or wrong, just a little bit,maybe your one statement went
too far, and you didn't have toyell at them about the one
thing, right?
You could have been 60 percentright, but you really screwed up

(16:29):
on that couple lines there, youknow.
Yeah.

Shola Richards (16:34):
first of all, so astute and I'm so glad you said
that yes to all the things thatyou just said, if we can unpack
this a little bit, since we'rehere, why I do feel that there's
something around intellectualhumility aspect.
And just for folks who may notlike, what is, what are we
talking about?
Intellectual humility.
Just the idea that our knowledgearound a certain topic is

(16:55):
incomplete, in that we couldpotentially be wrong about what
we believe.
That's that humility aspectaround this.
You know, I think a lot of folksfeel that being right, or ceding
ground, means that you are nowsaying that the other person is
right.
I'm curious, Evan, In your life,do you two part question for
you?
I know it was your podcast.
I'm just curious.

(17:15):
Do you have do you know anyonewho's intellectually humble?
That's first.
And do you know someone whorefuses to apologize or ever
admit that the wrong?

Evan Meyer (17:25):
I, I, I think, I think both the answer to the
latter is a lot more, I know alot more people than I know who
are, are willing to say, I don'tknow.
I don't know.
I have some information.
I've read the news, but like,but no one's in the room where
it happens.
Like Hamilton, remember that?
Like, no, no one's in the roomwhere it happens.
You weren't in the room withNetanyahu and the, the, the, you

(17:48):
know, military general, likedeciding which.
to do what action, you justdon't know.
So like, you know, that's alwaysa good one.
It's like, well, that bomb wasindiscriminate.
And I'm like, what degree ofindiscrimination can we decide?
Cause no one really knows whatthe, the, the strategy or the

(18:08):
logic was in the room.
It's only what you see on thenews.
Maybe they weren't, maybe theyweren't, I don't know.
But when I hear things likethat, almost like people, people
will.
Just claim knowledge over thingsthat they're just, do you think
anyone's telling you thatinformation they don't in those
press, like, but when they havea meeting, when, when, when,

(18:29):
when Trump and Putin meet,they're going to have a
conversation and they're onlygoing to tell you what What each
of them wants you to hear.
And then that gets spun, thenthat gets spun out.
You're already two chain links.
That gets spun out in thestories and all that.
So it's like, why wouldn't youjust assume you don't have all
the information because youweren't there.
Mmm.

Shola Richards (18:51):
Yes.
To all that.
But I also feel like folks just,we're in a place now where it's
like being right.
And owning the other side is waymore fun and scratches that itch
than the idea of just beinglike, yeah, you know, there's
probably some things I don'tknow that, that unless you are
for me, Shola Richard speaking,not anyone else.

(19:13):
For me, I feel like.
Yeah.
The highest form of intelligenceis curiosity.
The idea of like, there's, gosh,this is what I feel, but like,
man, I'm open to learning morearound this and being open to
information and learning more.
But I, but if you're not intothat, that doesn't really
scratch the itch.

(19:33):
Right.
It was like, I, I don't likethese people, whoever these
people are just making this up.
And so I get a perverse sense ofjoy when they're harmed.
Me not knowing that that feelingis justified would be really
something that would cause me alot of pain.

(19:53):
So I need to feel that I'mrighteous in my anger.
I need to feel

Evan Meyer (19:58):
Right.

Shola Richards (19:59):
righteous in my hatred because if I wasn't, that
I'm a bad person

Evan Meyer (20:01):
Yeah, you're justifying.
Yeah, right.

Shola Richards (20:03):
people,

Evan Meyer (20:04):
Wow.
Yeah.

Shola Richards (20:05):
that's the whole idea behind this.
And that's why intellectualhumility and it's sister or big
sister critical thinking is soimportant.
It's like this idea of just likegoing deeper than headlines and
social media posts and loudfolks and podcasts and all these
types of things.
And just like being well read orgoing deeper.

(20:28):
I mean, listen, I know what Igot into when I wrote this book,
that this is the path lesstraveled.
It's not

Evan Meyer (20:34):
Right.

Shola Richards (20:35):
yeah, let me go ahead and be really thoughtful
around this.
I know that,

Evan Meyer (20:39):
It's definitely the path less traveled.

Shola Richards (20:41):
10 to 15 percent of people to at least consider
it, then I

Evan Meyer (20:45):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (20:45):
that it kind of possibly change the world in
some way.

Evan Meyer (20:47):
What's the number?
11 million, 3.
5 percent needs to,

Shola Richards (20:50):
million.
Yeah, man, that's it.
And first of all, can we justtake a minute to just, to just
give you some, some propspublicly on your podcast.
I mean, I, it's really, really,really nice to talk to someone
has.
Actively read the work in it.
And I want to give you creditfor that.
You, you might be like, dude,that's table stakes.
I run a podcast.

(21:11):
Well, I've been on a ton andthey don't, not always the case.
So I don't want to just be like,dude, I expect this.
I don't.
So grateful for you taking thetime to read it and just being
up to speed on it because itcreates a more robust
conversation.
3.
5 percent is really the idea andthat's not a big, a huge number,
but it kind of is when you thinkabout how big our country is in

(21:33):
the

Evan Meyer (21:33):
yeah.
How big, what does it take tohave movement?
There's a book called How ChangeHappens.

Shola Richards (21:38):
I've heard that I've never, I've not read it.

Evan Meyer (21:40):
yeah Leslie Crutchfield.

Shola Richards (21:42):
Oh, okay.

Evan Meyer (21:44):
I think I got it.
I've interviewed her, actually.

Shola Richards (21:46):
Did she

Evan Meyer (21:46):
yeah.

Shola Richards (21:47):
I mean, cause I'm, I'm When it comes to like
this change stuff.
So any

Evan Meyer (21:52):
She does an incredible job.
She, like, leads theentrepreneur program.
Business department at Duke

Shola Richards (22:00):
Oh,

Evan Meyer (22:01):
for their policy, yeah, she's, she's really, and
she wrote this wonderful bookand did great research, and just
like, the way that movementshappen, and the way that they
have, the ones that have beensuccessful and the ones that
haven't, why the NRA is sosuccessful, but also how gay

(22:23):
rights.
Became so successful, right?
Or not smoking, right?
Like certain things that werelike not the norm and became the
norm on both sides of the eye,it's irrelevant, the issue, but
more about what what made thatsuccessful.

(22:44):
And a lot of it comes down tostarting local.
The, like the, the bottom upkind of approach of like having
all of these little pockets anddeveloping all these chapters
locally, winning locally,getting it done at the state
level and then getting it doneat the national level.
Right.
Because the, everyone starts tolike all the cities start

(23:06):
voting.
Okay.
Then the States vote and thenyou get one state and then the
dominoes, it's kind of thedomino theory.
And I'm wondering if we could dothat with civility, like what's
the domino, the domino effect.
Of civility to get to 11 millionpeople where we can say, look,
we're not doing this atThanksgiving anymore.
That joke about Thanksgivingdinner is done.

(23:28):
We're done with that joke.
We don't even say that jokebecause it's not funny and it's,
it's not fun either.

Shola Richards (23:34):
Right.

Evan Meyer (23:34):
to make Thanksgiving fun all the time.

Shola Richards (23:37):
But we're kind of kidding, but we're not
though.
Cause I think what you're

Evan Meyer (23:41):
Right,

Shola Richards (23:41):
the idea.
I mean, it's like, If there is aguy or if aunt Jane finds it
funny to make horrific, likeanti Semitic or homophobic or
racist jokes at, at, atThanksgiving, but we're like,
Hey, well, it says on Jane beingon Jane, you know, she's into

(24:01):
her third glass of Rose.
Hey, what do you expect?
Then it's like, are nowcontributing to the problem that
we're trying to fix.
Right.
So I do feel like part of that,getting to that point, I think
was, I don't know how relevantthis is to the conversation, but
it just kind of hit me, therewas a conversation around change
and like around voting inelections.
Right.
And so one of the things isthere was a campaign that said,

(24:24):
please vote or something likethat.
And it didn't really work, but Iwas like, Be a voter where now
you're like identified as avoter that got people more
interested, like saying like,don't litter don't be a litter
bug.
Like, I don't want to be alitter,

Evan Meyer (24:39):
right.

Shola Richards (24:40):
litter, like, ah, whatever I take my Coke and
throw it out the window, but Idon't

Evan Meyer (24:42):
Oh yeah.

Shola Richards (24:43):
bug.
So when it comes to civility,I'm still trying to think about
how this works in terms ofidentifying.
Who we are as people who believein this stuff, because what I do
want people to realize, and thisis shocking for some people,
sadly, this idea that you candisagree without disrespect.
You're like, wait, what?
That's a thing.
You can actually do that.
I was like,

Evan Meyer (25:03):
You mean they're not all idiots.
All the other people aren'tidiots.

Shola Richards (25:07):
shocking.
Right.

Evan Meyer (25:08):
Yeah,

Shola Richards (25:08):
like, but I think that's, that's the first
step.
Like it's all baby steps.
Right.
I feel like using Congress as anexample, when I went to Congress
and talk to them aroundcivility, I was joking at the
top of the podcast.
Thanks for sharing your failure.
It actually wasn't, it was sogreat that, that, that visit to
Congress.

(25:28):
Yes.
I was with the Select Committeefor the Modernization of
Congress, and it's now defunct,unfortunately, but there were 12
people there 12 lawmakers, 6Republicans, 6 Democrats, and at
the time the House ofRepresentatives was run by the
Democrats, and they made adecision, we're going to make
this purely bipartisan.
They could have one person more,make it 7 and 6, but decided to
make it 6 and 6.

(25:49):
The 12 people in this committeehearing, I can tell you, And it
sucks because it doesn't makenational news.
These folks on both sides of theaisle are like, this frigging
place is a dumpster fire.
I see it.
Everyone sees it.
We may not be ideologicallyaligned, the 12 of us.
However, we all agree that thisplace is a dumpster fire and we

(26:12):
just need to get back to the,the, the way of legislating
instead of like getting these 10second sound bites to own the
other side on Twitter orwhatever.
And I left there was so muchhope.
And I was like, Oh my gosh,these folks, sure.
We see the loud mouth that areon cable news stations,
pontificating and putting theirchest out and all that type of
fun stuff.

(26:34):
The reality is the majority ofthe lawmakers are the ones who
are really working there fortheir constituents.
And they don't get the airtanks.
They're not that they'reyelling,

Evan Meyer (26:41):
that's right.

Shola Richards (26:42):
celebrity, but people like us.
know that because we don't seethese people because they're too
busy working for theirconstituents.
That's the whole idea.

Evan Meyer (26:51):
Right.

Shola Richards (26:51):
getting back to your original question.
Why I share this is how we canstart is having these
conversations where people cansee that there's more to the
story than just the soundbitesthat we see on social media.
We just got to go a little bitdeeper.

Evan Meyer (27:03):
Yeah.
It's so, it's, I'm so glad yousay that there's so many people
and, and I think it's easier tosay this for people who, who run
locally or who are part of localpolitics.
The purity of their intentionsis, is there's more purity for
intentions for more people atthe local level until people
start getting corrupted.
Right.
And, and, but I think you're ahundred percent right.

(27:24):
There's plenty of good peopleout there and that's originally
what I was even doing thispodcast for was to showcase the
humanity for the good publicservice.
Right?
It was like, like people whoreally care and really want to
make a difference, don'tnecessarily want to, necessarily
want to be career politicians,don't necessarily get involved
in that stuff.
We're just trying, and I startedthis in Santa Monica, just for

(27:44):
Santa Monica,

Shola Richards (27:45):
Okay.

Evan Meyer (27:46):
to try to bring civility to what was, what was
happening.
difficult to watch councilmeetings very long and, and
painful and a lot of anger andthen yelling and ad hominem
attacks at the council members.
And I'm like, look, and Iremember when I was running and
I was president of myneighborhood association, even
there would be people who wouldcome in and yell at the council

(28:07):
members that would come and thatI'd have come and speak to the
neighborhood.
And I'd be like, look, I don'tcare if you agree with them or
not, but this room is not aplace for that.
Like you, we, we are notaccepting yelling at people who
are out there serving whetheryou like them or not.
And I sort of have this littlebit of a hump, this respect for
anyone who's willing to go puttheir life under a microscope

(28:31):
is, is there some level ofrespect, even if I don't like
your politics, like, becausethey're the ones doing it.

Shola Richards (28:37):
How did he respond to that?
I'm super curious when, sothey're coming to these meetings
they're screaming and attackingthese folks who decided to come
in and you're saying, Hey, We'renot doing that here.
This is not going to happenhere.
We're going to engagerespectfully and with civility,
be passionate if you choose, butwe're not going to use this as a

(28:58):
devolving into attacks.
How has that received?
I'm always curious about likethe real world application of
like, when you're seeing folksthat are feeling the need to
stream and yell at someone, andthen you're trying to pull them
back into a place where they'reback into using their prefrontal
cortex, their

Evan Meyer (29:14):
Right.

Shola Richards (29:15):
How did that work out?

Evan Meyer (29:17):
Well, it's hard to remember each situation of how I
responded, but in general, whatyou try to do is be very
respectful to all the parties atthe same time, saying, look, you
know, we're not going to getanywhere.
If you're putting this person ina very difficult place mentally
and emotionally, when you yellat someone in public, there's a
lot of things that arehappening.

(29:38):
You're in public, you're beingpublicly shamed.
So you have to either ignorethat.
Somehow, turn that off entirely,and act as if it, yeah, like,
there, there's, there are peopletoo, and when they're up there,
they, they have an emotionalresponse.
Ideally, it's not a lot, andthey're able to, to quell a lot
of that, but, like, it, ithappens.
So you want to be respectfulthat that could be happening on

(30:00):
one, on, on that side.
Again, we're not even talkingabout what the conversation is.
It doesn't even matter.

Shola Richards (30:04):
Yeah,

Evan Meyer (30:05):
just about being able to have the discourse.
So it's like, so if you're goingto come in and yell at them and
put them in a position, theycame here to be here tonight to
talk to you civilly, they'respeaking civilly, you're not
speaking civilly at the moment.
And we need to just, if you'dlike to take a breath and come
back when you're ready to, to,to, to have a conversation that
is not at this level, it has,you have to reduce the, the,

(30:29):
the, the, the heat in the room.
Right.
And, and I don't rememberexactly how I handle that, but
that was the general sentimentis like, how do I do this
respectfully?
And this person doesn't feellike I'm attacking them for
their beliefs.

Shola Richards (30:43):
See, this is the reason why I was asking and
thanks for sharing.
It's like, just scientifically.
I mean, I get it.
I mean, we're sitting herehaving a calm conversation.
It's one thing.
We're in the heat of the moment,right?
But scientifically screaming andshouting someone down never
works.
I mean, that's not shocking,right?

Evan Meyer (31:00):
Right.

Shola Richards (31:01):
car, the research on the reactants theory
from 1966, the guy Jack Graham,who talked about this, that in
the book, I described it as theboomerang, the

Evan Meyer (31:10):
Boomerang effect.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.

Shola Richards (31:12):
So it's like if you were to, if, if I If I have
a strong view about somethingand I am coming at someone who
is diametrically opposed interms of their belief on the
same idea, and I choose toattack them for it, I call them
stupid or or racist or Or a Nazior you're some liberal snowflake

(31:37):
or,

Evan Meyer (31:38):
Fascist.

Shola Richards (31:39):
fascism, whatever the word, I mean, both
sides have their words, right?
So it's like, whatever it maybe, it's not like I made a joke
in the book.
It's like around like guncontrol.
If I said, God, you know, yourguns stupid.
I can't believe you have guns.
You're an idiot.
You know, like, you know, stopusing your guns as your way to
overcompensate for yourinability to please your wife.
It's like, Oh, you know what?

(32:00):
You're right.
Yeah.
you for your commentary.
I'm so grateful that you told myusing my guns to self soothe for
my bedroom failures.
Like no one's doing that.
Right.
So.
Instead of like using, I mean,listen, both sides use attacks,
but I know that one thing thatis so true in science is that if

(32:21):
you're able to wrap your mindaround a level of emotional
intelligence, and that's why Imade sure I developed the
chapter on making sure we do.
Inner work.
So we're prepared to not gethijacked consistently when you
see people that thinkdifferently, cause we're going
to share the world with peoplewho don't see it the way we do.
There's

Evan Meyer (32:37):
Right.

Shola Richards (32:37):
that.
Unless you choose to like livein a cave for the rest of your
life.
I'm not choosing to do that.
So we've got to figure out howto navigate this stuff.
And part of it is if you chooseto attack, come in hot with
attacks, three things are goingto happen.
One, going to become moreentrenched in the beliefs.
That you hate the merits of yourposition are gone.

(32:58):
They're not going to see it.
And three, you're contributingto the discourse that we all
hate, lose, lose, unless you'recool with that, which I don't
know why you would be.
So it's like finding a way to belike, Hey, you know, I'm glad
you came to this meeting.
I really, really disagree withsome of the policies that you
put forth.
And if you.
I would like to share why andhow this would affect me and my
family going forward and why Iwould hope you'd reconsider more

(33:22):
chance that they'll maybethey'll walk away like screw you
lady or whatever.
But at least you have a chanceto like, made a good point.
He made a good point.
And you're never going to getthat by screaming people down.
Unless you just want to satiatethat need to own the other side,
that really basic level of ourhumanity.

Evan Meyer (33:39):
Yeah.
Right.

Shola Richards (33:40):
We got to do better.
And I

Evan Meyer (33:41):
We got to do better.

Shola Richards (33:42):
that's what I'm trying to push people to kind of
towards this.
Like there's a better way y'allgive it a

Evan Meyer (33:45):
Yep.
Yeah.
And, and, and you, you actuallybring up a good thing in your
book too.
It's like, where, what are thosecases that feel impossible to be
civil?
Right.
Have you experienced, where arethose hard lines for you?

(34:06):
Do you find, and I'm sureyou've, you've even mentioned
how you've been challengedpersonally in the book through
some of this.
Do you have hard lines whereyou're like, you know, you do
this.
Yeah.
There's no civility, right?

Shola Richards (34:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fair.
Like, you know, I, I'm so gladwe're talking about this because
one of the, and I willabsolutely answer your question,
but a quick preface is of thebiggest misconceptions around
civility is like, Oh, whenpeople are being abusive, just
smile and be like, I'm sendingyou love.
I love you.

(34:38):
Like, screw that.
So like, if someone came to my,if someone like came and like,
was attacking my family orsomething like, sir, do you mind

Evan Meyer (34:47):
Yeah, right

Shola Richards (34:48):
just take a minute to reflect on your
behavior, like, screw that he'sgetting these hands and I'm not
like, even that's, that's, Ijust need people to understand,
like there's time for civility.
I would say probably 80 percentof the situations in our world,
is a civil answer for it.
God, he said it.

(35:09):
God, I hope I'm not jacking uphis quote, but he said, you
know, violence is rarely theanswer, when violence is the
answer, it is the only answer.
I'm like jacking up his quote,but like, basically he's saying
like, usually it's not theanswer, but when it is, it is
the only answer.
And there's times where for me,I shared in the book that I was
sexually abused when I wasyounger.

(35:30):
And yeah, man, I'm, I'm nottrying to, like, if I were to
ever run into these people, Icouldn't even pick it on the
lineup.
I'm not trying to give civilityto them.
Now, what's interesting aboutthis, and this is going to be
kind of confusing, but stickwith me on this.
I have forgiven them, but I haveno interest in spending any time

(35:52):
offering them kindness orcivility.
Forgiveness, this means thatI've released them, and I've
forgiven them.
I am no longer letting thesefools live right through my mind
and I'm free from that.
it doesn't mean that if I everran into them and I wouldn't
even know them if I saw them,we're going to hug it out and
just be like, yo, I forgive youfor what you did to me.

(36:13):
No, I forgave you, but I don'tneed to give you that kindness.
I don't need to, I'm not doingit for them.
That's the

Evan Meyer (36:19):
Right,

Shola Richards (36:20):
doing this for me.

Evan Meyer (36:21):
right,

Shola Richards (36:21):
that's a hard line and that's an extreme line
to be clear.
So I get it.
Another example is like.
When I'm dealing with someonewho is clearly racist and does
not see my humanity and is happyto let me know that I will never
be equal to them, I'm not goingto be like, Hey, well, you know,
I still love you.
I'm like, no, I'm not going toengage in back and forth with

(36:43):
them.
Cause I don't

Evan Meyer (36:44):
right.

Shola Richards (36:45):
my time and my emotional energy, but they're
not going to get civilityeither.
I'm just going to leave.
I'm just going to bounce.
I'm just going to move on.
There's a quote that I had inthe book.
That said honeybees don't wastea moment of their time trying to
convince house flies that honeytastes better than shit.
And I think about this all thetime.

Evan Meyer (37:02):
I took that note by the way

Shola Richards (37:04):
that's a solid one, right?
I mean, so like, if you're, ifyou are into like, like swirling
around the stinky pile in thegrass, like have at it, my guy,
but like, I'm trying to findthis honey and I'm trying to,
it's so much sweeter beingkinder to people being, even
with people that you don't.
Understand or see the world thesame way.
So my hard line is if someone'slike truly hateful and

(37:26):
thankfully there's not a ton ofthese people percentage wise,
but truly, truly hateful, I gotno time for you and I'm not
going to be wasting my timegiving you civility when I can
talk to this big meaty portion,the 70, 60, 70 percent of folks
out there who are open to beingself aware around how their
words and actions affect others.
So yeah, I have a few red

Evan Meyer (37:45):
Yeah, well you don't and 11 million people

Shola Richards (37:49):
Exactly.
And so,

Evan Meyer (37:50):
so 60 percent is within that

Shola Richards (37:52):
5 percent that we can just like, whatever.

Evan Meyer (37:54):
That's right.
There's plenty, there's plentyin that 60 percent you were
talking about.
That's, that's, that's that wecan, we can figure out how to
change.
So, there's been a coupleinteresting movements on this
front, that, in speaking of,like, trying to get those people
to be more civil.
One is on X, where Musk has, isupdating the algorithm to be

(38:15):
less, to deprioritizenegativity, and prioritize
things that are more,inspirational or informative or
entertaining.
And he uses the community notesto help to validate ideas.
And then, right, right afterthat, Zuckerberg comes out and
says that they're not going touse fact checkers anymore, and,
those fact checkers are way toobiased, and we're going to start

(38:36):
using community mo notes likeMusk in order to have freedom of
speech, but also do better youknow, clarifying what could be
considered misinformation orwhatever.
Now, two interesting things onthis.
One, the idea that part of theidea of X is to reduce
negativity, which I thought wasa very interesting move from a

(38:58):
civility standpoint at least.
And then the the other isZuckerberg's fact checkers.
They're biased fact checkers,and we were talking before like,
I asked this to so many people,like, does anyone even agree on
the word fact anymore?
You can't even agree on the mostbasic words in the lexicon.

Shola Richards (39:14):
That's the

Evan Meyer (39:14):
How do you, right?
Like, oh, this is a fact.
These are facts.
Oh, no, these are facts.
No, these are facts.
You're just like.

Shola Richards (39:24):
used to be arguable.
And I think that's, what's sosad when it's like post truth
world, it's like, like two plustwo equals four.
No, two plus two equals Tuesday.
It's like, it it's four.
Like, how did we get to Tuesday?
Like what

Evan Meyer (39:36):
Right.
Well, there's a differencebetween, I think, and I think
this is where it's part of theintellectual humility problem,
but there's so much that'scoming out now and there's this
need to, you know, all thethings we said before, but the
truth is very, it's not clear ingeneral what truth is because
it's complicated, right?
There's only very, there's veryfew absolute truths, right?

(40:00):
Then there's, we'll call itempirical truths, like
scientific, like, Force equalsmass times acceleration, right?
These are scientific laws,certain formulas that work under
all the conditions we've everbeen able to test.
Right?
There's those truths.
And those could still bedisrupted.
Things get proven wrong overtime.
That's what science is allabout.

Shola Richards (40:20):
Yes.

Evan Meyer (40:20):
there's very, once you add narrative, period, to
anything, once you communicatesomething and play the game of
telephone at all, my hypothesisis that You have to then add a
level of humility that there wasnarrative and humans love
narrative.
We love good stories.
It's our whole thing.
So there's very few actual realhard truths without understood

(40:44):
to get the full pie ofknowledge.
You just, I think it's generallyimpossible.
So you have to lead with thatintellectual humility.
And that's my, I guess my mainpoint on the narrative front

Shola Richards (40:53):
And that's a fair point.
I think what, what gets kind ofsquishy and questionable is like
when bad actors use that ascover to spread blatant
misinformation anddisinformation, things that they
know is untrue and that they'relike, well, you know, we don't
know what facts are.
And if you coming from a placeof.
ill intent to harm or to deceiveor to increase whatever value

(41:19):
share you have from a politicalor financial standpoint.
That's when it's gross and bad,you know, back to your original
around what's going on in X.
I'm not on there.
So I don't really know, but Ican tell you One of the things
that's really challenging aroundthis is you can deprioritize
whatever the hell you want toprioritize.
I don't know how that's going tochange.

(41:40):
Like the cesspool of negativitythat is social media.
Like I don't, I don't, I, I feellike, and again, from a place of
intellectual humility, I'msharing my opinion, I can't say
anything factually, but what Ican say in my opinion is from
doing this for a while, likeI've tried to carve out my own
little pockets of like, goodnesson on social media.

(42:03):
But I feel like it's so easywith the cloak of anonymity to
do some really, really crazythings that you would never say
to a person's face and have thatface to face interaction.
So I know how much juice isworth the squeeze and whatever
these folks are trying to do onFacebook or X.
But what I can say is that fromour own individual agency

(42:25):
perspective, if we are going tobe on social media, we should be
like, am I doing harm or am Iactually helping making this a
little better place?
I, you hear this all the time.
Like my girls were in GirlScouts for a while.
And like, Leave it better thanyou found it.
Just simple, basic stuff.
Like if you're on there andyou're like, Gur, I can't wait

(42:45):
to go on the comment section ofthis political site person that
I hate.
And let's let them know that allthis stuff is stupid.
There's a, there's a friend ofmine, who first thing that this
person does when they wake up inthe morning is go on X and like
troll the other political side.
And this spends day doing this.

(43:05):
Like I personally cannot think.
Of a worse use of

Evan Meyer (43:11):
use of time.

Shola Richards (43:13):
mean, it's like, and it's weird because it does,
it doesn't do any objective.
Good.
You're not changing anyone'sminds and you're getting your
cortisol raised up.
Your sympathetic nervous systemis like flaring out of control.
You're probably losing a coupleof minutes or hours off of your
life.
Every single time you do thisfor what end.

(43:35):
So like.
I just try to find like findinga way to get an environment
where people can be morethoughtful and kinder and, and,
and yes, passionate.
I don't want people like youhave to roll over when you
believe something.
If like, if you believesomething, you're talking to
someone who disagrees, it.
One of my dear friends has apodcast where her mom What that

(43:58):
was is a Trump supporter and afriend was a hardcore Kamala
Harris supporter, and they had abeautiful podcast they didn't
tell, they had the rule was thatthey didn't share which view
kind of gave it away.
That sucks anyway.
So like share what side of the,of the political aisle they're
on.

(44:18):
the podcast interview was sointeresting.
How they talked about how theycan navigate going forward.
Cause they both have reallystaunch views.
And.
To see how they're able to becivil, talk about how these
conversations have, how oneperson has kind of made it worse
than the other, how we can kindof find a way to navigate around
it was one of the things thatgave me hope in 2024.

(44:39):
And I think about that podcastepisode, whenever I run into
folks who are having thesereally difficult conversations
around the middle East ortransgender athletes in sports
or LGBTQ rights in general, orrace relations or politics or
what have you.
is hope that we can get there ifwe're able to see the shared

(44:59):
humanity across from us.
And I think

Evan Meyer (45:00):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (45:01):
one area that we struggle with collectively.

Evan Meyer (45:03):
Yeah, we've almost dehumanized the other side,

Shola Richards (45:08):
Oh yeah.
Way.

Evan Meyer (45:09):
it's not good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, go jump into that.
That was a good, that was a goodjump into.

Shola Richards (45:16):
Yeah.
I didn't say I think it'sintentional because it kind of
goes back to my earlier point.
You want to feel justified inyour righteous anger.
Yeah.
So if I see you as someone whoroots for the same sports teams
that I do when our kids go tothe same schools and we have the
same hopes and fears and like,you know, all these things that
help to Tether that person totheir humanity.

(45:37):
It's like, screw that.
Like, no, you're a terribleperson

Evan Meyer (45:42):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (45:42):
wants to bring all this crime into this country
and blah, blah, blah.
And so it's like, instead ofseeing them for the humans that
they are, it's like, It's somuch easier to dehumanize.
And this again, both sides dothis.
And I think part of thechallenge is, can you look at
someone who doesn't see theworld as you do, but still keep

(46:03):
their humanity in the center ofthe conversation?
It's not, listen, real talk,Evan, if this was easy, everyone
would be doing it.
We wouldn't have to have thispodcast interview.
It wouldn't even be a pointwhere there would no need for me
to spend 19 months writing thisthing.
What, what is real?
This is super hard work.
That's going to require us to goback to your earlier point
around.

(46:23):
Well, why, why, why would Iadmit that I'm wrong?
I don't want to do that.
It's feels weird.
Then if I'm wrong, that meansyou're right.
And I'll never say that you'reright because you're wrong.
So I'm not gonna say that I'mwrong.
It's this, this.
Binary false dilemma fallacyback to our logical

Evan Meyer (46:38):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (46:39):
So there's more to it, but it requires nuance.
And that's what I'm trying toteach people that there's a way
to get there, but we have to bewilling to

Evan Meyer (46:45):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (46:46):
and our hearts to do it.

Evan Meyer (46:47):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's an amazingrelate.
You found similarities between,I mean, just to kind of carry on
this, it's, This point of thewhy I guess right is that you've
you've found similaritiesbetween substance abuse and the
radicalization right in theradicalization is 10 percent on

(47:09):
both sides, right?
20 percent of the population orsomething.
I forget, but whatever the rat,the very far the people you
can't convince the ones that arein civil, you know, will never
be wrong.
What can you can you jump intothat a little bit?
I think it's an incredible wayto think of.
Because a lot of the people thatI think that I know that I would
consider to be more radicalizedtend to have some addictive

(47:34):
personality to some degree.
They do something too much inthe, in the substance category.
I love that.

Shola Richards (47:46):
you're saying, you know, it's, it's, it's,
it's.
It's not a one to onecomparison, but it's close
enough that we can make thisright.
So usually folks who are dealingwith some sort of substance
misuse or abuse, one reallywell, first things first, in
order to take the next step,there has to be some sort of
realization that there's aproblem.
That's the first step of anyreal mainstream change.

(48:09):
They're not going to be veryreceptive to being shamed.
About their behavior.
And oftentimes similar to folkswho are radicalized, they do
find a way to kind of isolatethemselves around people who
share similar beliefs because itallows them to, or in substance
abuse scene activities, right?
So you don't feel the guiltthat.

(48:30):
That would happen if likeyou're, if you're an alcoholic
and you're drinking at someparty, if you're around other
alcoholics, it's easier toengage in that behavior.
If you are radicalized and youfind an online group supports
your ideology, your ideology,it's easier to do that.
You're not going to feel asguilty around being around these
folks because they help supportthat.
And it's these environments thatare created around that.

(48:53):
That allows these behaviors thatare maladaptive to thrive
because if you are aroundsomething, Hey, you should put
down the pipe.
You should put down the drink.
Hey, you know, these beliefsthat you have around these
people.
I don't know.
This is a really good idea.
I kind of disagree with you.
So, and most importantly,They're not going to be super

(49:14):
open and coming back to pointnumber one, full circle.
They're not going to be reallyopen to changing by you, forcing
them into change.
So one of the things that wetalk around and the same thing
with substance abuse, I wouldargue with civility as well.
When folks are radicalized isthe willingness.
To show this person kindness andrespect.
Like what respect for what thewhat it's not that you have a

(49:38):
shred of respect for theirbehavior or their beliefs.
But the idea is this very simplephrase that I talked about in
the book.
Most bad behavior is anunskilled expression of an unmet
need.
a need that's being met, right?
Whatever it is, the need to feelseen a need to feel important
and you'll need to feel part ofcommunity, whatever the heck it
is.
Right.

(49:58):
so.
If you're able to listen tosomeone like, yeah, how did you
get to this?
What makes you believe that, youknow, X, Y, and Z is true.
Yeah, because they're all tellme more.
And then they're like, you'renot judging your listening.
And just by doing that, you'regiving this person a way to get
their needs met.
In a way that is notmaladaptive, dangerous, possibly

(50:22):
even harmful to another humanbeing.
God, this is hard.
And that's why most people don'tdo it.
I'm like, screw you.
You're crazy.
And because you're crazy, I wantnothing to do with you.
And to be super clear, justbecause you listen to someone
and give them that space, theymay end up being dangerous or
whatever you need to Scommunicate them from your life
and do that.
as a starting point to justdismiss people, especially if

(50:43):
it's something you care about,have a relationship, I think
it's worth going a little bitdeeper.

Evan Meyer (50:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Are there people, are therepeople in your life that you
would say lean on this?
Substance abuse, radicalization,combo.

Shola Richards (50:59):
Yeah, I had a friend who really struggled with
alcohol abuse and still friendsand he's done so much better.
It just got to a point where itwasn't serving me to be around
him.
And I found myself, you know,kind of more than they probably
should have around.

(51:20):
And I was like, I don't like howI feel.
I don't want to be hung over.
I'm not a big drinker.
So there's that.
So I, Kind of like listening tohis challenges with this.
And eventually he got to a pointwhere it's like, you know what?
I don't know.
I, I'm, I don't like how I, andI said to him, like, well, grab
a drink.
Like, I don't like how I feelthe next day.

(51:40):
That was really all I said.
And then it took a while.
And then he came back and youknow what?
I'm going to realization that Idon't like how I feel.
And he decided to take himselfto rehab and do the work.
And.
in a much, much better placenow.
if I shamed him and to be superclear, this was way before I

(52:01):
knew anything about the bookthat I wrote or these
techniques, I was just like, butI had an idea, I knew that
shaming him wasn't going to beeffective.
So I did.
And the thing about that,because I gave him that freedom
to just, you know, make thedecision on his own.
He reclaimed his life and nowhe's very happy doing what he,
what he Does well, I feel likethis radicalization, substance

(52:22):
abuse issues where folks go sofar,'cause they're missing
something, that a need is notbeing fulfilled.
And if the need isn't beingfulfilled, whatever that need
is, they're gonna find itelsewhere.
And maybe in ways that aren'tvery helpful or productive.

Evan Meyer (52:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when I was reading that,you know, I started to have my
own, like, relationships to whatyou were saying in my head of,
like, things I was thinking, andpeople, or why this is such a
powerful way of looking at it,even if it's, even partially
true.
You know, you could start tolook at why, what is it about

(52:56):
addictive behavior that makesit?
Something addictive, right?
And that can continue willpursuit in a thing to feel a
certain way.

Shola Richards (53:05):
Yep,

Evan Meyer (53:06):
And maybe, I'm not a psychologist, but, but, but I do
think that the problem we'redealing with is largely
psychology of the individual.
It's a personal responsibility,psychology, understanding
yourself.
So you could be better out therein the real world.
And on the substance abuse.
the relationship, you know,maybe there's a psychological

(53:28):
element where the, the need tocontinue to do a certain thing,
to feel a certain way over andover again, that substance is
fulfilling some of that unmetneed.
And also it's the same behaviorthat they would exhibit in a
conversation in somethingdifficult, that continual force

(53:48):
to, at any cost.
Pursue a conversation style inorder to be right.
And, and again, I don't know ifit's, it's, it's causal or
correlated, but there'ssomething there that's similar,
which I found reallyinteresting.

Shola Richards (54:02):
is super interesting, but I mean, there's
like, most people do thingsbecause there's a payoff,
whatever it may be.
Right.
So it's like, there's somethingthat feels good.
Like, it's like you drink thatdrink, you do the drug, you
scream at someone on socialmedia.
There's something that's like,yeah, that dopamine hit.
So if we're able to like retrainour dopamine receptors to like

(54:24):
things that are more healthy andhelpful, we have a way to maybe
turn this around.
But I think that's part of thechallenge.
It requires that first step.
Realizing like, Oh, this is not,is not, it's like using cotton
candy for energy.
Like how stupid is that?
It's like, that's not gonnawork.
So it's like, it's like, why notjust try something that's way
more sustaining?

(54:45):
It's going to be so much morehealthy for you.
But it's like, until theyrealize like, nah, this cotton
candy does work.
Every time I do, I get this bigboost.
Then you crash.
So there's gotta be a betterway.
And I

Evan Meyer (54:54):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (54:55):
part of this conversation is to help people
to get there.

Evan Meyer (54:57):
Yeah.
And a lot of people wouldrather, would rather crash than
be wrong.

Shola Richards (55:03):
Sadly, that's true.
And I think that says a lotabout our, our, our ego based
way of looking at the world.
It's like, I personallyspeaking, I'd rather I'd rather
be happy than right.
Like have your win.
I'm just going to,

Evan Meyer (55:16):
Yeah.
What's the point

Shola Richards (55:17):
me.

Evan Meyer (55:18):
of even, you know, it's even, it's happened the
other day where someone saidyou're wrong in a conversation.
And I'm like, it's just funnythat you'd even say that to
someone on such a, on such a,like, to be right and wrong on
things, I think, you know, maybethat's one of the first ways of
looking at it is like, it's,there's no such thing as right
and wrong.

Shola Richards (55:38):
I just

Evan Meyer (55:39):
Most of the time.

Shola Richards (55:40):
Yeah.
It's

Evan Meyer (55:41):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (55:42):
So cool.
You see it that way.
I see it differently.
I mean, I may be wrong.
You may be wrong.
We both may be right.
I don't know.
Who knows, but I just see itdifferently.
So I need to be, you're wrong.

Evan Meyer (55:51):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (55:51):
no, I was like, oh, that's interesting that you
think that I, I, I have to seeit differently.

Evan Meyer (55:55):
Yeah.

Shola Richards (55:56):
And that doesn't need, because if you like, I
disagree, you're wrong.
So I was like, Whoa, okay.
So now we're like, there'salready that, like that primal.
Ooh, I got to square up.
It's like, we're about to gointo this.
Instead, it's more like I see itdifferently.
It doesn't

Evan Meyer (56:10):
Yep.

Shola Richards (56:11):
It doesn't mean I'm right.
It doesn't mean that you areeither, by the way, it just
means that I see it differently.

Evan Meyer (56:16):
Yeah, that's okay.
So I, hey, we, we got to figurethis out.
I'm so, I am so grateful thatthere's a person like you who is
pursuing this at such a at sucha passionate level to make the
world more civil.
And, and in a, in a way that islogical, right?
It's not in a, in a way that'snot, you know, it's not just

(56:38):
Kumbaya soft, mushy stuff.
It's just, it's, it's, it'sreally about understanding your
own psychology and understandinghow you can.
Improve the world by improvingyourself in a lot of ways.
That's a lot of what I got fromyour book.
Helps relationships.

Shola Richards (56:54):
That was what

Evan Meyer (56:54):
I think it, I think you did such a good job, man.
Thank you for everything.
Thanks for joining today.
Any, any last things you want totell the world?

Shola Richards (57:02):
Yeah.
Something really simple.
Just be a little bit kinder thanyou feel comfortable being.
Just do a little bit more.
I know it's like, if we can justkind of look at that place where
we can just Everyone thinks thatthey're kind enough, but can we
just be a little kinder?
Maybe that one person who youjust have some sort of issue
with, or maybe you haven't saidhello to making eye contact with

(57:25):
folks who you don't really knowand give them a little smile or
even a hello.
If you're not a big smiler, justgo a little bit further.
We don't know what other peopleare struggling with.
And that little bit ofconnection could give someone a
renewed faith and hope inhumanity.

Evan Meyer (57:39):
That's it.
Shola Richards, the, the one andonly, the inspirational, the
amazing.
If you haven't read it, pleaseread it.
Please read this to the whole,the whole world.
Please read this book.

Shola Richards (57:52):
We'll get there, Evan.
We'll get there one day.
One day.

Evan Meyer (57:57):
Or at least 11 million people.
I think, would that be enough?
That'd be enough.

Shola Richards (58:00):
I wouldn't be mad.

Evan Meyer (58:02):
Ah, thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.

Shola Richards (58:07):
Appreciate you, brother.
Thanks, Evan.
Take care, man.