January 26, 2024 • 43 mins
This episode peels back the curtain on the real-world application of IO Psychology, revealing how it serves as a crucial cog to ensure the smooth running of internal operations and the alignment of complex human dynamics with overarching business goals. Britni and I delve into her approach to solving organizational issues, demonstrating that it's not just about what's visible on the surface but about digging into the deep-rooted problems that often evade detection.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to MICE, the podcast where we empower HR
excellence, one conversation ata time.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
On this episode of MICE, we are unraveling the
mysteries behind the science ofoptimizing workplace
environments and enhancingindividual performance with IO
Psychology, and on today'sepisode, I am interviewing
Brittany Eisenman.
She is a founding principal ofStoke Fire and she is really, in
(00:30):
my opinion, like all things IOPsychology.
If I have questions, I go toher.
So, Brittany, tell us a littlebit about yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm in the Fort Wayne area.
I'm running Stoke Fire, whichoperates nationwide.
We help organizations that areeither dealing with a problem
that's been there for decades orcurrently we have a project
that spun off into its owncompany called Railtowns United,
that we're solving a problemthat's been around for 150 years
.
We also get pulled in when somevisionary at the top of the
(01:00):
organization has a massive goalthat someone says that is
absolutely impossible.
You can't do that.
So, for example, Stoke Fire'steam was able to take an entire
industry, the concrete industryof North America.
They had about 6% of the market.
We got them to 30%year-over-year growth until they
were at 50% of the market.
(01:21):
So massive goals or entrenchedchallenges, that's kind of what
we go after.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Awesome.
So can you kind of startdelving into what IO Psychology
is and really how you use it inthe real world today?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Absolutely.
I think one of the easiest waysto do this is to compare and
contrast it with an MBA, becauseeveryone knows what an MBA is.
So if you get an MBA, youshould graduate with skills to
lead teams and projectsefficiently.
You should be able to solvecomplex problems and communicate
well, and most graduates withan MBA have a good understanding
(02:00):
of business, financials and theability to build strategy from
data that's been gathered.
Higher education instituteshave literally spent billions of
dollars creating demand for anMBA, and in some industries it's
like a rite of passage, likenow it's time for you to get
your MBA and our company's goingto cover it.
And that's just what you do.
(02:22):
Folks with industrialorganizational psychology or IO
Psychology come out of schoolwith the internally focused
aspects of an MBA.
So we ask an answer how do youget your organization to run
effectively?
You match the human elements ofthat psychology piece to your
logistics, data and businessgoals.
(02:43):
So I have a master's in IOPsychology, so I have an MBA and
a degree on how to run internaloperations effectively.
I just have different letters.
I have a psych, so I know howto solve problems that
organizations have infunctioning.
Let the fail-by in marketingfolks that have MBAs.
Focus on that side.
I've got you covered at thecore of your business.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, someone a few years ago had to correct me
because I thought IO Psychologywas like the psychology that
everybody knows.
And they're like no, no, no.
And then they explain it to meand I was like, oh, I've never
even heard of this.
And so is it not really like apopular thing that colleges
offer.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think it's increasing in popularity, but I
have an undergraduate inpsychology and I had never heard
of IO Psychology until I wasjob searching I think it was
2017.
I was burnt out in the socialservices sector and I decided to
look for a job, found a jobthat all of the bullet points is
what I was already naturallydoing as I was being pushed up
(03:47):
into leadership and socialservices, and they wanted an IO
psych degree and I didn't knowwhat that was.
So I Googled it and realizedI'm doing all of this naturally.
I just need to go to school andlearn all of the frameworks and
all of the data analysis sothat I can do it officially
under that title.
But yeah, I actually do noteven talk about IO Psychology
(04:07):
with new clients because it'sjust acting, because nobody
knows what it is, and I getsidelined on this conversation
about oh so you're apsychologist, you help people in
our company that have problemswith X, y or Z psychologically,
and I'm like absolutely not, youdo not want me counseling
(04:28):
anyone.
That's what I thought it was.
Yeah, because that's what itsounds like.
We kind of internally in thefield, we joke about how badly
it's branded.
Our title doesn't reallyexplain what we do.
The fact that it has psychologyand psychology is known for
counseling, clinical psychology,is just a challenge.
So until that changes, itdoesn't help me to talk about it
(04:51):
.
But I can do all the things andthat's what the clients care
about, but I can get themresults.
So we just talked about that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So how do you explain what you do without talking
about the IO Psychology part?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Give examples of how we've done it before.
I tend to end up talking abouthow, when we come with solutions
and actually I will give you anexample of this but only come
with solutions, instead ofsolving the question that was
asked of us when we were broughtin, we dig underneath and we
can identify what's going on sothat we can solve the core issue
(05:25):
, so that this problem doesn'tcome up again.
Let me come up with an example.
So retention Retention is aproblem so many organizations
have and, honestly, at thisstage in capitalism, we will
continue to have retentionproblems.
So let's say a company wasstruggling to keep employees
after they restructured a fewmonths ago and they had a large
(05:48):
layoff.
And now employees won't stopleaving and so they're at risk
of the work getting done with nosign of resignation slowing.
So if you had an MBA, come in.
They would look forefficiencies and inefficiencies.
So where to cut, where toinvest and where to pivot.
So they might tell leadershipcut programs that don't directly
(06:11):
help get product out the door.
They might say invest inemployee engagement and employee
appreciation.
And they might tell you topivot to use temp agencies to
fill in the gap in the meantime.
There's nothing wrong with thatadvice.
It's logical and it answers thequestion I asked, which would
(06:31):
have been how do I keep moreemployees and how do we deal
with our issues while we don'thave enough employees?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But it doesn't really prevent it from happening again
.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yes, absolutely so.
If an IO psychologist came in,we know that retention itself is
a symptom.
100% of the times retention isa symptom, not the problem.
If you treat it as a problem,you actually can't solve it and
make it go away long term.
So if we don't find out how theorganization got to where it is
(07:02):
today, we cannot solve the rootcause.
And the answer isn't thatthere's some external factors,
that the government's payingpeople not to work, that this
generation doesn't want to work,that people are lazy, those
external things where we sayit's not our problem, it's their
problem.
That doesn't allow you to digdown and figure out what you do
have in your control underneaththe symptom that we're seeing.
(07:24):
So instead of taking each issueat face value that your data
says you have, the data sayswe're not retaining people and
people are leaving too quickly,an IO will dig underneath, trace
back the retention symptom toits cause and only then can that
problem be solved for the longterm.
Because instead of applyingthese logical band-aids, we
(07:47):
apply a solution that not onlysolves the cause of the symptom
but also helps the organizationstay more aligned long term so
that it can hit its goals.
You're not wasting so muchenergy, time and resources
resolving this retention problemthat keeps coming back, up and
up and up, because you solvedthe thing that leads to the
retention problem bubbling up.
That's the difference there.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Because retention gets brought up all the time, no
matter where you work.
And you said start withretention and work your way back
to the problem.
How exactly do you recommenddoing that?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
So in iOpsychology, most of our training is learning
different frameworks, so verysmart people at doctorate levels
often have done all thisresearch, identified ways of
organizing or solving orresearching that makes sense.
And then we have practitionersI'm a practitioner iOpsych, I'm
(08:43):
actually doing it in the realworld, I'm not just researching
it that then apply theseframeworks and help validate
that they work.
So an iO comes into yourworkplace with hundreds of
frameworks and tools at theirdisposal.
Some of us have favorites, someof us use certain sets of them,
but once we start identifyingwhat's going on, we can pull
(09:04):
from those frameworks.
A joke we say internally,though, is that every framework
is broken.
Some are useful, so none of themare absolutely perfect but,
often we can use them to eitheridentify exactly what's going on
or to help build a solutiononce we know what the issue is.
(09:25):
So at Stokefire and now in realtowns united, which came from
Stokefire, we have a frameworkthat has now been used on
hundreds of organizations.
It was developed internally toStokefire by Tate Linden he was
the original founder ofStokefire Starting in early
2000s, developing, developing,developing.
(09:46):
Until now.
We have all of this validation.
Not only is there thick researchbelow this framework we use,
but we've seen it work in allsorts of challenges In an
organization that is working ingreen zones, so in the middle of
a war zone, the peace arearight in the middle, solving
(10:07):
problems for them all the way tolike meals on wheels, america,
so just all kinds of differentchallenges.
Our framework is all aboutpeeling back those layers to get
to the absolute core and thenyou apply it and you see how
many paths forward makes senseonce you know your actual issue,
(10:28):
and it helps leadership decidewhich path forward do we want,
based on where we actually wantto go.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So it sounds like there's more than one different
kind of framework.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, there's all kinds of frameworks that IOs use
.
The one that we use inStokefire is called Linden's
Lens, because it was invented byTate Linden.
Yeah, and it's a simpleframework, you know.
We look at a few core elements.
So one is you have to have ahigher calling.
So what's his name?
Simon Sinek talks about this.
(11:02):
He has a book about this, howyou can't just be after fame or
money.
You're going to crumble.
You have to be solely like yourvalues in your mission have to
be the higher calling.
And then we overlap that withall of your communications.
You have to be able tocommunicate what it is you're
after and what it is you'redoing, not just in your words
but all of the nonverbals too.
(11:23):
And then the third element isyour actions.
You have to be good at thething you do, Otherwise why the
heck are you doing it?
You're never going to get offof square one.
So when you take those threethings together so the what you
think and value, you know yourvalues in your mission, your
communications, in your actionsthere's social science below
each of the overlaps which hadnot been discovered before.
(11:46):
And then Tate realized when allthree are in perfect alignment,
you get what's called structuralintegrity.
So we have lots of frameworksthat are in the business world
that, like, mbas will use, likeEOS or scaling up, which is all
about like getting tractiongoing off in a certain direction
, kind of sprinting to get tothe end line.
And then you have frameworksthat talk about resilience and
(12:09):
then you have frameworks thathelp you get to sustainability.
If you have structuralintegrity, you don't just have
traction, you don't just havesustainability, you don't just
have resilience.
You have all of that.
You're able to overcomewhatever comes your way because
of who you are, the environmentyou're functioning in.
Even if there's a storm thathits you that is flipping over
(12:29):
all of your competitors, whenyou have structural integrity,
you can overcome all of it.
You can withstand any storm,and it's been thrilling to watch
it over and over and over again.
Organizations take it Likethere's usually a visionary at
the top that absolutelyunderstands the model.
We help them implement it andthey are unstoppable, no matter
(12:51):
what comes after them.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Can you give me or our listeners an example of a
client you've worked with andhow you implemented your
framework into that and then howit ended?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I'm assuming good, but you know the thing is,
working with Stokefire is toughwork because we shine a light in
all the places that haven't hada light showed on them.
And leaders have so muchpressure on them and many of
(13:23):
them, especially if you've beenthe organization for a long time
you're pretty entrenched andyou tend to be a little blind to
some of the stuff that's goingon and how you yourself impact
it.
Even the best leaders have thischallenge, so working with us
can be painful.
We've been kicked out of roomsbefore, out of projects before,
because we ticked off the CEO bynot gently enough saying the
(13:45):
truth.
And we've had to drop clientstoo that just once they saw what
was going on, they just weren'tinterested in doing the right
thing or going the rightdirection for whatever was going
on or whatever damage washappening, so you stuck to your
principles in those cases.
Yeah, and we aren't saints.
(14:09):
Part of the reason that we haveto do that too is because if we
apply the lens to an executiveteam that isn't ready for it or
isn't, that either don't havethe willingness or the ability
to apply it, it will break theexecutive team irreparably, and
(14:30):
so, even if you're notfunctioning well, we don't want
to do damage.
So if we're not right for youand we didn't identify that soon
enough, we're going to back outand leave you as good as we can
.
But yeah, that's another one ofthe reasons that we don't push.
We need to be brought in andthere needs to be.
(14:51):
The person at the top needs toabsolutely understand what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
In those cases, how far have you got along before
you realized you needed to step?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
out.
It usually comes at thetoughest emotional conjecture,
which is after our findingsphase.
At the very beginning, wepresent to the executives or the
key leadership group thatbrought us in everything that we
discovered and ourrecommendations.
We learned the hard way thatyou cannot bring everyone into
(15:23):
that room and then strip themnaked with the truth and dump an
ice bucket over them.
It doesn't work, it is not fair, it is unkind.
He'll be back, yeah.
So what we do now is all the waythrough the findings phase,
whether it's five weeks or threemonths, whatever it is, every
single step of the way, our keyconnection to the organization,
(15:46):
the handler, essentially getsall of the information about
what we're finding and wevalidate it.
So we'll say we found this, wethink you should be seeing this.
Is that true?
Is there anything we didn't seeyet?
That's also happening becauseof this.
So every step of the way, theyknow not only what we found, but
they're with us as we discover.
(16:07):
How big of an issue is this?
Did it just start two weeks agoor has it been around for six
years and we had no idea?
So by the time we get to thatroom and that one or two day
workshop however long it is,depending on the project.
There are zero surprises.
It's still hard, but nothing isshocking that helps.
(16:28):
So before we did that, we raninto a lot more resistance, got
kicked out of rooms or realizedthis absolutely isn't the right
place for us.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I just got us off track about the example that you
were going to tell us.
I just remembered that's whatwe were talking about.
Okay, so continue.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, so you wanted an example of how we've applied
the lens.
Yeah, okay, I will give anexample of actually one that's
fairly local.
We're both in Fort Wayne rightnow, so a client is a while back
.
But they brought us in for achallenge.
They had a retention issue 600%turnover in one of their
(17:07):
sectors.
So every couple of months theyessentially had a whole new
department there in that area.
We were either the sixth or theseventh consultant group that
had been brought in to solvethis challenge and as soon as we
realized that, I actually toldmy team.
(17:28):
We hit the brakes because Isaid there's no way that we're
just going to continue going on.
We can't just take their moneyand be one in a long line of
consultants.
We have to understand first whythe heck either could those
other consultants not find it or, if the consultants did find it
, why this organization isn'timplementing their
(17:48):
recommendations.
So we were able to get some ofthat information and use that as
part of our findings as well.
So we were brought in for aretention issue.
We use a survey to take theentire organization through our
model to get the rightinformation.
(18:10):
Then we validate all of thefindings from the survey.
So we surveyed, let's see, Ithink, four different groups, so
the two main departments, oneof which was salary, one was
hourly and then X employees, andthen sometimes we'll survey
stakeholder groups like clientsor ex-clients or community
(18:30):
members.
Through that we discovered thatthe retention challenge was
essentially a sibling of sixother very significant
challenges, so safety and moralebeing two examples of issues
that were happening at the samelevel.
And then we identified one coreissue underneath those seven
(18:55):
issues that they directly grewout of, and if this core issue
was solved, those seven wouldeach start to solve themselves.
So the core issue underneath allof those was something it's
mind-blowingly simple, but itwas administrative
follow-through.
So the organization at the tophad sprinters.
(19:18):
So these are like idea peoplethat were awesome at sourcing
really cool things fromconferences or the new books
that came out.
They had lots of connections,they were seeing what other
companies were doing and they'dbring back these sparkling,
awesome new initiatives thatsounded really good and appeared
on the internet and appeared onthe surface to be really good
(19:40):
fit for some of the challengesthat they were having.
And also a function of the topleadership team was that they
were really good at erasingbureaucracy.
If I was brand new at theorganization, I could, like day
one, walk up to the CEO and say,hey, my kid is on the
volleyball team at the localhigh school.
(20:01):
They're fundraising, will thecompany donate?
And get a yes.
So there was really nobureaucracy.
You could get answers rightaway.
But the challenge with theorganization was they'd pull in
awesome ideas.
Everybody could talk toeverybody.
We would implement a solutionas soon as the problem was
(20:21):
identified.
We would not evaluate if thisis the right solution, how to
roll it out?
Who needs to know how to rollit out and how to keep it going?
So the solution itself wouldstart.
Fires cause problems and thenext day we come in and, because
we consider this solutionalready solved, we're moving on
(20:43):
to the next thing.
We're implementing new, sparklysolutions to other problems
that we found.
So what was going on is therewere fires everywhere all the
time and everyone from, like,the supervisors of the front
level staff all the way up tothe CEO, all they got done was
putting out fire after fireafter fire and implementing
(21:05):
these really good solutions.
So you know, some of thefallout from that was people
didn't believe that solutionswere going to stick around
because they didn't.
People maybe had access to theCEO, but weren't sure if the CEO
knew what they were doing.
All they saw was all thesefires happening and there was a
lot of pride of working there.
(21:26):
So they had higher turnoverthan a lot of their peers, even
though a lot of the employeeswanted to stay.
So it sounds like kind of like alack of accountability after
implementation of something thatwas one key part of you know,
the lack of administrativefollow through, absolutely the
(21:48):
executive team keepingthemselves accountable, and part
of the issue I'm glad youbrought that up, because part of
the issue with that and I spenta while talking with the team
about this in our findingsdiscussion but was they kept
hiring people that were likethem in that personality and
that drive, and so they were alllike really, really, really
good sprinters.
(22:09):
So I talked about how, like thisis a strength, most companies
really struggle with bureaucracy.
Most companies really strugglewith like figuring out solutions
and implementing them, but likeyou're lacking the balance
strength which would keep youaccountable, and so we really
talked with them a lot about how, when you hire this person, you
can't develop them internallybecause you already hired
(22:29):
everybody that's like yourself.
When you hire this person orthis group of people that will
keep you accountable, that arethese careful people that need
to think before they implementthings that have lots of
questions that will push back.
It will be painful forabsolutely everyone and that
person needs to know, when youhire them, that they are up
against when T people that donot have their strength, that
(22:53):
have been used to having noleash, just sprinting whenever
they want on anything that theywant.
Yeah, so absolutelyaccountability and all the like
details of their specificsituation.
That meant what doesaccountability mean?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So do they end up going that direction and hiring
somebody that wasn't like them?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes.
So this company didn't hire usto do the full implementation.
We built a couple things andgave them some resources and
programmatic supports Long term.
They have hired in a couplepeople that trend this way, but
it is still a challenge for them.
(23:37):
I will say, at the top the CEOit was really hard to digest
what we had delivered and sothere wasn't a full buy-in of
the solution or ability to seehow the solution will help
things get better.
So there have been steps takingtoward that of building in more
(24:02):
accountability naturally intothe employee workspace, but
they're not there yet.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They're working on it .
Yes, so you mentioned buy-in.
That made me think of something.
Another question when you gointo these organizations and
it's like, hey, this is what'sgoing on, here you go, and so do
you not necessarily get all thebuy-in you need from, like, the
supervisors or the employees toparticipate and get the
(24:31):
information that you need.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Step one for us is the person at the very top of
the organization has to be 100%in.
We spend a lot of time beforewe sign a contract talking about
what it is we do, what it'sgoing to feel like, types of
results that we've gotten.
So, by the time we are signingan agreement and starting a
project, the very top one tofive people are fully in.
(24:56):
But, yes, below that and it'shighly dependent on what the
relationship is between theexecutive team and the
supervisors.
But there can absolutely beresistance and it's part of my
job to pick up on that rightaway so I can understand how to
implement how it is that we'regathering information.
Sometimes our survey is online,sometimes by phone, sometimes
I'm there in person, and that'soften dictated by how trusting
(25:20):
that person is of someone thatthis executive team would bring
in.
Our survey is objective.
It's not how do you feel about,it's your observations.
How many times have youobserved X, y or Z?
It's their measuring, theiractual experience.
So there isn't a lot of room tolie and we try to be careful
(25:45):
that there's not a lot ofmotivation to lie either.
So I'll give you an exampleFoundations, like family
foundations or like communityfoundations, that are
philanthropic, so giving outmoney either from a bunch of
tiny grants or they have onethat they're aiming toward a
certain thing.
(26:05):
When we see what was it?
2021, 2022,?
We started turning the modelthat we use into more concrete
tools and I started talking tofoundations and they were very
interested because we couldmeasure the structural integrity
of those that they were givinggrants, to see how likely is it
that this organization is goingto absolutely benefit from the
(26:27):
grant that you give them and beable to use it to serve the
people that they want to serve.
We won't let any foundation useour survey or apply our model
before the grant is given,because there is so much
pressure to just appear the bestyou can to get money and so
(26:50):
anything that could be slanted acertain direction or something
is going to be, because theyneed the money.
They're applying to the grantfor a reason.
So that's an example where,after they get the grant, we're
more than happy to work withthem, either with the grantees
as a group or individually, butbecause there's so much pressure
to lie before.
Not that they're bad people,but like any of us would Just
(27:14):
overselling.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So, ultimately, how does I have psychology help
businesses?
Speaker 1 (27:27):
When you're serious about getting to the core of an
issue and you're okay withtaking an ego hit, it's a good
time to bring in.
I have psychology Organizationsuse.
I have psychology in a fewdifferent ways One you can bring
us in and aim us at a veryspecific issue, so that's
generally what I do.
I'm a consultant.
I'm brought in when you have areally deep challenge or you
(27:49):
have a massive goal thateveryone says is crazy.
You can hire an IO onto yourexecutive team, so a lot of them
will end up in like COO typepositions.
Or you can hire them asindividual contributors, so a
lot of healthcare systems or bigorgs like John Deere, amazon,
(28:12):
rei.
They have groups of IO's thatare either parallel to HR or
within the HR function orleading HR but that are doing
things like building surveysthat only gather exactly what
you want to gather and employeeswant to take them and they can
help you get to your missionmore quickly.
(28:32):
Retention work, recruitment worksome IO's go into that very
specifically.
It's very broad.
You know, for me I'm anentrepreneur and a consultant I
didn't think that's what I wasgoing to do with the degree, but
that's what I'm doing with thedegree.
I thought I was going to end upinside of a big health network
just sitting in a cushy jobdoing surveys or something.
(28:54):
But I kind of get to do all ofit because I'm a consultant.
So that's depending on whatyour need is, you can pull in an
IO.
I had one client that was soexcited about the work that we
did with them that they actuallywent out and hired an IO and
plugged them into.
I think it was the safetyposition in the organization.
(29:16):
It was a manufacturing company,so they knew they wanted an IO
and that was the position thatwas open.
And so they were like we knowwe want an IO in our company and
we need a safety person.
We know that they can do that,so they plugged them in so that
they could access all the IOskills and abilities.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Because you say it's so broad, it's not really a
human resource departmentnecessarily.
So, like when you think of HR,you think of like diversity and
inclusion, employee engagement,motivation, leadership
development.
So how is that similar ordifferent to IO psychology?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Some IOs do go ahead and get certified as HR and some
become CHROs.
I agree with you, though I viewus more as a support to HR.
That's how I started.
My consultancy originally wasto support HR's work and what
they're doing.
I purposefully didn't learn allof the HR stuff because I
didn't want to be a competitor.
(30:14):
I just wanted to be a support.
Let's take, for example,diversity and inclusion.
If you want to make sure thatyou're including people that
have different abilities, havedifferent backgrounds, different
socioeconomic status, you cango out and you can grab
fantastic programs.
You can apply them to yourorganization.
(30:38):
The executive team is going tobe pretty happy with that.
This was what we wanted to do.
We wanted to have moreinclusion.
We applied a program that in 70other companies that's been
proven to improve inclusion.
What an IO is going to do isgoing to measure what that
program does and how it does itagainst your very specific needs
(31:00):
.
If it fits well, great.
We're going to implement it sothat we are absolutely matching
our needs and our goals withwhat this program can do.
Then IO will also be able tosee if this program even though
it's a very sexy program and hasworked for so many of our
competitors or companies that wewant to be like.
We can measure if it's not agood fit for us and why.
(31:23):
So that we can either go find aprogram that will work or build
only exactly what we need tohit our goals?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Ultimately, if someone from the company goes
and finds a one-size-fits-allsystem, but then the IO would
really be like, yes, this works,but we need to change it this
way or no, this doesn't work forus.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, and they'd be able to tell you why Employee
engagement is an area.
For a while I stayed really faraway from that area Employee
appreciation, employeeengagement not from lack of
interest, but because there's somuch out there that just sounds
good but seemed like it wasn'treally working in an
organization.
I'll share a story I wastalking with a young HR
(32:13):
professional really sharp, hadbeen in a large company and then
was brought in as an HR managerkind of leap frog from a lower
position to a higher position ina new company, which is
fantastic, well-deserved, doinga good job.
The company that they hadlanded in was very much like a
family-like environment and didthat environment pretty well.
(32:39):
The employees were stickingaround for a long time.
They were very rarely openings.
When they were, it was usuallybecause someone had retired or
shifted into a higher position.
The company was doing reallywell.
This HR manager wanted to do areally good job and they were
the first HR manager that theorganization had had, so they
didn't have a lot of guidance asto what needs to be done.
(33:00):
The exhausted COO was just likehere, take this part of my job,
do what you do.
They went to this conferenceand heard this cool story about
it was you take bricks paperbricks or whatever and you write
(33:21):
something good that theemployee did or something, and
you put it up on the wall.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I've heard about this .
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yes, sounds good on the surface.
Right Could very well beperfect, exactly what your
organization needed.
But this HR manager implementedthis with a group of people
that already had belonging.
They already knew that theywere valued.
They already knew that theywere doing a good job.
It was a little bit like a17-year-old, like a
(33:52):
four-year-old.
She started implementing thisbecause it wasn't meeting a need
and they were already beyondthat in their relationships with
each other and with theorganization.
It almost had the oppositeeffect.
That's an example of anemployee engagement idea that
(34:13):
sounds really cool, has workedreally good in other
organizations, could absolutelywork good in your organization,
except her organization didn'tneed it.
She didn't actually end uphelping things A because they
didn't really need to be helpedto that much, but also she was
treating people like multiplelevels below where they were as
(34:35):
an organization.
Stuff like that being careful,being able to tease out where is
the program going to matchwhere we are.
That's an employee engagementstory around that concept.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
What about leadership development?
Because, again, I feel likethere's so many webinars,
seminars, people you can hire tocome in and talk to your
company.
You really want your leaders towork on communication, but
maybe what's being presented tothem doesn't really fit what
your actual problem is.
How do you work around that?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, the model that I explained earlier looking at
your values in your mission,your communications and what you
do can actually be applied tothe micro not just one team, but
one individual and evendecision by decision.
You can use it to guide youthrough this.
If you have someone that wantsto be a leader or you know that
(35:32):
you want to implement someleadership pipeline or system in
your organization.
Step one is identifying howdoes this person's core values
support the organization's corevalues?
They're never going to be theexact same set of values, but
how do they support ourorganization's values?
If there's good linkage there,what this person really cares
(35:53):
about absolutely helps supportwhat our company really cares
about.
Then you know, okay, we'restarting in the right place.
Then you can work on things likehow does this person
communicate I'm not just talkingdirectives and how they email
but how does their body languageand how they behave communicate
to other leaders around themand to their direct reports?
(36:15):
I value you.
You belong here.
I belong here as well.
Then do they have the skillsthat they need?
A lot of leadership developmentprograms just focus on the
skills you have the skills,communication being something
that we call a skill.
Yeah, absolutely.
We tend to negate.
Do you belong here?
Is this the right place for you?
(36:36):
Are your values a match for ustoday as it is?
If not, how can we get you tothe point where you're in a
place where you match?
Or maybe we need to help youmove into a different
organization where youabsolutely match?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, I was just going to say what do you do when
you get that leader who theircore values doesn't match your
core values?
Speaker 1 (37:00):
This is tricky.
I'm going to have to be carefulhow I answer this.
So, me as a consultant, that'snot my problem, but it's your
problem.
You can't change someone'svalues.
What you can do is if you havea leader, for whatever reason
(37:21):
they're not going to be leavinganytime soon but their values
don't match your values or theycan't help you get to your team
goal or the organization's goal,what you can do is identify
exactly what their values are,why they believe that, and then
see if you can find a way that,if they behave X way, which is
(37:42):
not what they're doing now ithelps them match one of their
values or get to the thing thatthey want to do.
Do we have time for a storyaround this?
Yep, I want to hear it.
Yes, so this was before I waswith Stokefire, but we worked
with the state of Iowa.
They had a conservativegovernment for decades upon
(38:05):
decades.
It had been 25 years since theyhad raised the gas tax and many
of their politicians had gottenvoted in.
Most of their platform was we'renot going to raise taxes,
period.
A small government did it, didit.
Their roads and their bridgeswere crumbling and one state
over there had actually been adeath because someone was
(38:25):
driving over a bridge in thatstate that had crumbled while
their vehicle was on it.
So the TransportationDepartment knew that this was an
issue.
So every year or every twoyears, the governor of the state
of Iowa would create what'scalled a blue ribbon committee
to look at the state of ourroads and our bridges.
So they would do a study of thestate of our roads and our
(38:49):
bridges and they would bringback the report and there would
be an awards ceremony where,like banquet and like here are
the results handshake photo, theend.
That's it, because we're notraising taxes, period.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
So, like, what was the purpose of that?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
That's a real good question.
So we were brought in.
You know it was a small job.
I think it was just $80,000 isall that.
Stokefire was paid to solve thisproblem that had been around
for 25 years.
That was going to get peoplekilled if we couldn't fix it.
Screaming about it had notworked.
These committees, of course,hadn't worked.
(39:30):
So as Tateland and the originalfounder of Stokefire did
research on politicians ingeneral, he realized if you are
a politician and you solve aproblem before it's a crisis,
it's up to like five pointslower your odds of getting voted
in again.
If you wait until the problemdoes create a crisis, like
(39:52):
people die, then you have up tothree points higher that you
will get voted back in becauseyou came in and you were the
hero and you solved this.
Now, if I'm a politician, it'sa little bit of a thankless job.
I'm there because I believe Iam the right person to solve the
problems of this constituency.
(40:13):
I view my job as getting votedback in.
That's my number oneprerogative.
So am I motivated to solveproblems before they become
crises and I'm not seen as thehero?
I do things that people don'tknow that they need.
There's almost negativemotivation there.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It's like an ethical dilemma, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah.
So what we needed to do wascreate a crisis before there was
an actual crisis.
So we put up billboards andactually we took this to the
state senate ahead of time andmany of them signed on and said
(40:55):
I don't want those billboards inmy area, absolutely don't do
this.
I will sign on.
Billboards would point atdeficient bridges and they would
say you're about to cross astructurally deficient bridge.
Here's a website.
And then the website would givethem all this information and
how to contact theirrepresentative, their state
(41:16):
senator, to ask for taxes to beraised so that we can fix this
and I don't have to drive mykids over this deficient bridge
twice a day.
So we created a crisis.
We got this conservativeconstituency begging to have
their taxes raised, so thegovernor was able to raise taxes
(41:36):
and be the hero when for 25years he hadn't been able to do
that.
In three months we got $3billion raised.
Wow, for 25 years of $0 raised.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Wow.
What was the mayor's initialreaction when you told him what
you were going to do?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
We didn't have much view of that, because the group
we were working with wasn't histeam.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So we're not sure what hethought that he was going to do
for now, but we got it done.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
What was their reactions?
Or just like do it.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Relief.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the team thatbrought us in was astounded and
relieved, which is, yeah,optimal outcomes.
That's what we want, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
So, with IO Psychology, how do you feel or
could you elaborate on how thishelps the future of businesses
or how you see the future of IObeing in the business world?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, io is really geared toward long term.
You would be hard pressed tofind an IO that will give you a
sexy solution that you canimplement today and is only
going to last for three months.
If you have a mission that thepeople you serve can't afford
for you to go under it's tooimportant then you need to be
(43:00):
bringing in an IO.
We measure everywhere that yoursystems and your people
interact and optimize all ofthat.
We also make sure you are fullyaligned with your mission and
your values and yourcommunications and your actions
so that, no matter what hits you, because you're aligned, you
(43:21):
can lean on the strength ofthose three.
Together, you're going to lastthrough it.
That's what an IO can bring you.
Thank you for listening.
Stay tuned for our next episode.
Welcome to MICE, the podcast where we empower HR
excellence, one conversation ata time.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
On this episode of MICE, we are unraveling the
mysteries behind the science ofoptimizing workplace
environments and enhancingindividual performance with IO
Psychology, and on today'sepisode, I am interviewing
Brittany Eisenman.
She is a founding principal ofStoke Fire and she is really, in
(00:30):
my opinion, like all things IOPsychology.
If I have questions, I go toher.
So, Brittany, tell us a littlebit about yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm in the Fort Wayne area.
I'm running Stoke Fire, whichoperates nationwide.
We help organizations that areeither dealing with a problem
that's been there for decades orcurrently we have a project
that spun off into its owncompany called Railtowns United,
that we're solving a problemthat's been around for 150 years
.
We also get pulled in when somevisionary at the top of the
(01:00):
organization has a massive goalthat someone says that is
absolutely impossible.
You can't do that.
So, for example, Stoke Fire'steam was able to take an entire
industry, the concrete industryof North America.
They had about 6% of the market.
We got them to 30%year-over-year growth until they
were at 50% of the market.
(01:21):
So massive goals or entrenchedchallenges, that's kind of what
we go after.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Awesome.
So can you kind of startdelving into what IO Psychology
is and really how you use it inthe real world today?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Absolutely.
I think one of the easiest waysto do this is to compare and
contrast it with an MBA, becauseeveryone knows what an MBA is.
So if you get an MBA, youshould graduate with skills to
lead teams and projectsefficiently.
You should be able to solvecomplex problems and communicate
well, and most graduates withan MBA have a good understanding
(02:00):
of business, financials and theability to build strategy from
data that's been gathered.
Higher education instituteshave literally spent billions of
dollars creating demand for anMBA, and in some industries it's
like a rite of passage, likenow it's time for you to get
your MBA and our company's goingto cover it.
And that's just what you do.
(02:22):
Folks with industrialorganizational psychology or IO
Psychology come out of schoolwith the internally focused
aspects of an MBA.
So we ask an answer how do youget your organization to run
effectively?
You match the human elements ofthat psychology piece to your
logistics, data and businessgoals.
(02:43):
So I have a master's in IOPsychology, so I have an MBA and
a degree on how to run internaloperations effectively.
I just have different letters.
I have a psych, so I know howto solve problems that
organizations have infunctioning.
Let the fail-by in marketingfolks that have MBAs.
Focus on that side.
I've got you covered at thecore of your business.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, someone a few years ago had to correct me
because I thought IO Psychologywas like the psychology that
everybody knows.
And they're like no, no, no.
And then they explain it to meand I was like, oh, I've never
even heard of this.
And so is it not really like apopular thing that colleges
offer.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think it's increasing in popularity, but I
have an undergraduate inpsychology and I had never heard
of IO Psychology until I wasjob searching I think it was
2017.
I was burnt out in the socialservices sector and I decided to
look for a job, found a jobthat all of the bullet points is
what I was already naturallydoing as I was being pushed up
(03:47):
into leadership and socialservices, and they wanted an IO
psych degree and I didn't knowwhat that was.
So I Googled it and realizedI'm doing all of this naturally.
I just need to go to school andlearn all of the frameworks and
all of the data analysis sothat I can do it officially
under that title.
But yeah, I actually do noteven talk about IO Psychology
(04:07):
with new clients because it'sjust acting, because nobody
knows what it is, and I getsidelined on this conversation
about oh so you're apsychologist, you help people in
our company that have problemswith X, y or Z psychologically,
and I'm like absolutely not, youdo not want me counseling
(04:28):
anyone.
That's what I thought it was.
Yeah, because that's what itsounds like.
We kind of internally in thefield, we joke about how badly
it's branded.
Our title doesn't reallyexplain what we do.
The fact that it has psychologyand psychology is known for
counseling, clinical psychology,is just a challenge.
So until that changes, itdoesn't help me to talk about it
(04:51):
.
But I can do all the things andthat's what the clients care
about, but I can get themresults.
So we just talked about that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So how do you explain what you do without talking
about the IO Psychology part?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Give examples of how we've done it before.
I tend to end up talking abouthow, when we come with solutions
and actually I will give you anexample of this but only come
with solutions, instead ofsolving the question that was
asked of us when we were broughtin, we dig underneath and we
can identify what's going on sothat we can solve the core issue
(05:25):
, so that this problem doesn'tcome up again.
Let me come up with an example.
So retention Retention is aproblem so many organizations
have and, honestly, at thisstage in capitalism, we will
continue to have retentionproblems.
So let's say a company wasstruggling to keep employees
after they restructured a fewmonths ago and they had a large
(05:48):
layoff.
And now employees won't stopleaving and so they're at risk
of the work getting done with nosign of resignation slowing.
So if you had an MBA, come in.
They would look forefficiencies and inefficiencies.
So where to cut, where toinvest and where to pivot.
So they might tell leadershipcut programs that don't directly
(06:11):
help get product out the door.
They might say invest inemployee engagement and employee
appreciation.
And they might tell you topivot to use temp agencies to
fill in the gap in the meantime.
There's nothing wrong with thatadvice.
It's logical and it answers thequestion I asked, which would
(06:31):
have been how do I keep moreemployees and how do we deal
with our issues while we don'thave enough employees?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But it doesn't really prevent it from happening again
.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yes, absolutely so.
If an IO psychologist came in,we know that retention itself is
a symptom.
100% of the times retention isa symptom, not the problem.
If you treat it as a problem,you actually can't solve it and
make it go away long term.
So if we don't find out how theorganization got to where it is
(07:02):
today, we cannot solve the rootcause.
And the answer isn't thatthere's some external factors,
that the government's payingpeople not to work, that this
generation doesn't want to work,that people are lazy, those
external things where we sayit's not our problem, it's their
problem.
That doesn't allow you to digdown and figure out what you do
have in your control underneaththe symptom that we're seeing.
(07:24):
So instead of taking each issueat face value that your data
says you have, the data sayswe're not retaining people and
people are leaving too quickly,an IO will dig underneath, trace
back the retention symptom toits cause and only then can that
problem be solved for the longterm.
Because instead of applyingthese logical band-aids, we
(07:47):
apply a solution that not onlysolves the cause of the symptom
but also helps the organizationstay more aligned long term so
that it can hit its goals.
You're not wasting so muchenergy, time and resources
resolving this retention problemthat keeps coming back, up and
up and up, because you solvedthe thing that leads to the
retention problem bubbling up.
That's the difference there.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Because retention gets brought up all the time, no
matter where you work.
And you said start withretention and work your way back
to the problem.
How exactly do you recommenddoing that?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
So in iOpsychology, most of our training is learning
different frameworks, so verysmart people at doctorate levels
often have done all thisresearch, identified ways of
organizing or solving orresearching that makes sense.
And then we have practitionersI'm a practitioner iOpsych, I'm
(08:43):
actually doing it in the realworld, I'm not just researching
it that then apply theseframeworks and help validate
that they work.
So an iO comes into yourworkplace with hundreds of
frameworks and tools at theirdisposal.
Some of us have favorites, someof us use certain sets of them,
but once we start identifyingwhat's going on, we can pull
(09:04):
from those frameworks.
A joke we say internally,though, is that every framework
is broken.
Some are useful, so none of themare absolutely perfect but,
often we can use them to eitheridentify exactly what's going on
or to help build a solutiononce we know what the issue is.
(09:25):
So at Stokefire and now in realtowns united, which came from
Stokefire, we have a frameworkthat has now been used on
hundreds of organizations.
It was developed internally toStokefire by Tate Linden he was
the original founder ofStokefire Starting in early
2000s, developing, developing,developing.
(09:46):
Until now.
We have all of this validation.
Not only is there thick researchbelow this framework we use,
but we've seen it work in allsorts of challenges In an
organization that is working ingreen zones, so in the middle of
a war zone, the peace arearight in the middle, solving
(10:07):
problems for them all the way tolike meals on wheels, america,
so just all kinds of differentchallenges.
Our framework is all aboutpeeling back those layers to get
to the absolute core and thenyou apply it and you see how
many paths forward makes senseonce you know your actual issue,
(10:28):
and it helps leadership decidewhich path forward do we want,
based on where we actually wantto go.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So it sounds like there's more than one different
kind of framework.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, there's all kinds of frameworks that IOs use
.
The one that we use inStokefire is called Linden's
Lens, because it was invented byTate Linden.
Yeah, and it's a simpleframework, you know.
We look at a few core elements.
So one is you have to have ahigher calling.
So what's his name?
Simon Sinek talks about this.
(11:02):
He has a book about this, howyou can't just be after fame or
money.
You're going to crumble.
You have to be solely like yourvalues in your mission have to
be the higher calling.
And then we overlap that withall of your communications.
You have to be able tocommunicate what it is you're
after and what it is you'redoing, not just in your words
but all of the nonverbals too.
(11:23):
And then the third element isyour actions.
You have to be good at thething you do, Otherwise why the
heck are you doing it?
You're never going to get offof square one.
So when you take those threethings together so the what you
think and value, you know yourvalues in your mission, your
communications, in your actionsthere's social science below
each of the overlaps which hadnot been discovered before.
(11:46):
And then Tate realized when allthree are in perfect alignment,
you get what's called structuralintegrity.
So we have lots of frameworksthat are in the business world
that, like, mbas will use, likeEOS or scaling up, which is all
about like getting tractiongoing off in a certain direction
, kind of sprinting to get tothe end line.
And then you have frameworksthat talk about resilience and
(12:09):
then you have frameworks thathelp you get to sustainability.
If you have structuralintegrity, you don't just have
traction, you don't just havesustainability, you don't just
have resilience.
You have all of that.
You're able to overcomewhatever comes your way because
of who you are, the environmentyou're functioning in.
Even if there's a storm thathits you that is flipping over
(12:29):
all of your competitors, whenyou have structural integrity,
you can overcome all of it.
You can withstand any storm,and it's been thrilling to watch
it over and over and over again.
Organizations take it Likethere's usually a visionary at
the top that absolutelyunderstands the model.
We help them implement it andthey are unstoppable, no matter
(12:51):
what comes after them.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Can you give me or our listeners an example of a
client you've worked with andhow you implemented your
framework into that and then howit ended?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I'm assuming good, but you know the thing is,
working with Stokefire is toughwork because we shine a light in
all the places that haven't hada light showed on them.
And leaders have so muchpressure on them and many of
(13:23):
them, especially if you've beenthe organization for a long time
you're pretty entrenched andyou tend to be a little blind to
some of the stuff that's goingon and how you yourself impact
it.
Even the best leaders have thischallenge, so working with us
can be painful.
We've been kicked out of roomsbefore, out of projects before,
because we ticked off the CEO bynot gently enough saying the
(13:45):
truth.
And we've had to drop clientstoo that just once they saw what
was going on, they just weren'tinterested in doing the right
thing or going the rightdirection for whatever was going
on or whatever damage washappening, so you stuck to your
principles in those cases.
Yeah, and we aren't saints.
(14:09):
Part of the reason that we haveto do that too is because if we
apply the lens to an executiveteam that isn't ready for it or
isn't, that either don't havethe willingness or the ability
to apply it, it will break theexecutive team irreparably, and
(14:30):
so, even if you're notfunctioning well, we don't want
to do damage.
So if we're not right for youand we didn't identify that soon
enough, we're going to back outand leave you as good as we can
.
But yeah, that's another one ofthe reasons that we don't push.
We need to be brought in andthere needs to be.
(14:51):
The person at the top needs toabsolutely understand what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
In those cases, how far have you got along before
you realized you needed to step?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
out.
It usually comes at thetoughest emotional conjecture,
which is after our findingsphase.
At the very beginning, wepresent to the executives or the
key leadership group thatbrought us in everything that we
discovered and ourrecommendations.
We learned the hard way thatyou cannot bring everyone into
(15:23):
that room and then strip themnaked with the truth and dump an
ice bucket over them.
It doesn't work, it is not fair, it is unkind.
He'll be back, yeah.
So what we do now is all the waythrough the findings phase,
whether it's five weeks or threemonths, whatever it is, every
single step of the way, our keyconnection to the organization,
(15:46):
the handler, essentially getsall of the information about
what we're finding and wevalidate it.
So we'll say we found this, wethink you should be seeing this.
Is that true?
Is there anything we didn't seeyet?
That's also happening becauseof this.
So every step of the way, theyknow not only what we found, but
they're with us as we discover.
(16:07):
How big of an issue is this?
Did it just start two weeks agoor has it been around for six
years and we had no idea?
So by the time we get to thatroom and that one or two day
workshop however long it is,depending on the project.
There are zero surprises.
It's still hard, but nothing isshocking that helps.
(16:28):
So before we did that, we raninto a lot more resistance, got
kicked out of rooms or realizedthis absolutely isn't the right
place for us.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I just got us off track about the example that you
were going to tell us.
I just remembered that's whatwe were talking about.
Okay, so continue.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, so you wanted an example of how we've applied
the lens.
Yeah, okay, I will give anexample of actually one that's
fairly local.
We're both in Fort Wayne rightnow, so a client is a while back
.
But they brought us in for achallenge.
They had a retention issue 600%turnover in one of their
(17:07):
sectors.
So every couple of months theyessentially had a whole new
department there in that area.
We were either the sixth or theseventh consultant group that
had been brought in to solvethis challenge and as soon as we
realized that, I actually toldmy team.
(17:28):
We hit the brakes because Isaid there's no way that we're
just going to continue going on.
We can't just take their moneyand be one in a long line of
consultants.
We have to understand first whythe heck either could those
other consultants not find it or, if the consultants did find it
, why this organization isn'timplementing their
(17:48):
recommendations.
So we were able to get some ofthat information and use that as
part of our findings as well.
So we were brought in for aretention issue.
We use a survey to take theentire organization through our
model to get the rightinformation.
(18:10):
Then we validate all of thefindings from the survey.
So we surveyed, let's see, Ithink, four different groups, so
the two main departments, oneof which was salary, one was
hourly and then X employees, andthen sometimes we'll survey
stakeholder groups like clientsor ex-clients or community
(18:30):
members.
Through that we discovered thatthe retention challenge was
essentially a sibling of sixother very significant
challenges, so safety and moralebeing two examples of issues
that were happening at the samelevel.
And then we identified one coreissue underneath those seven
(18:55):
issues that they directly grewout of, and if this core issue
was solved, those seven wouldeach start to solve themselves.
So the core issue underneath allof those was something it's
mind-blowingly simple, but itwas administrative
follow-through.
So the organization at the tophad sprinters.
(19:18):
So these are like idea peoplethat were awesome at sourcing
really cool things fromconferences or the new books
that came out.
They had lots of connections,they were seeing what other
companies were doing and they'dbring back these sparkling,
awesome new initiatives thatsounded really good and appeared
on the internet and appeared onthe surface to be really good
(19:40):
fit for some of the challengesthat they were having.
And also a function of the topleadership team was that they
were really good at erasingbureaucracy.
If I was brand new at theorganization, I could, like day
one, walk up to the CEO and say,hey, my kid is on the
volleyball team at the localhigh school.
(20:01):
They're fundraising, will thecompany donate?
And get a yes.
So there was really nobureaucracy.
You could get answers rightaway.
But the challenge with theorganization was they'd pull in
awesome ideas.
Everybody could talk toeverybody.
We would implement a solutionas soon as the problem was
(20:21):
identified.
We would not evaluate if thisis the right solution, how to
roll it out?
Who needs to know how to rollit out and how to keep it going?
So the solution itself wouldstart.
Fires cause problems and thenext day we come in and, because
we consider this solutionalready solved, we're moving on
(20:43):
to the next thing.
We're implementing new, sparklysolutions to other problems
that we found.
So what was going on is therewere fires everywhere all the
time and everyone from, like,the supervisors of the front
level staff all the way up tothe CEO, all they got done was
putting out fire after fireafter fire and implementing
(21:05):
these really good solutions.
So you know, some of thefallout from that was people
didn't believe that solutionswere going to stick around
because they didn't.
People maybe had access to theCEO, but weren't sure if the CEO
knew what they were doing.
All they saw was all thesefires happening and there was a
lot of pride of working there.
(21:26):
So they had higher turnoverthan a lot of their peers, even
though a lot of the employeeswanted to stay.
So it sounds like kind of like alack of accountability after
implementation of something thatwas one key part of you know,
the lack of administrativefollow through, absolutely the
(21:48):
executive team keepingthemselves accountable, and part
of the issue I'm glad youbrought that up, because part of
the issue with that and I spenta while talking with the team
about this in our findingsdiscussion but was they kept
hiring people that were likethem in that personality and
that drive, and so they were alllike really, really, really
good sprinters.
(22:09):
So I talked about how, like thisis a strength, most companies
really struggle with bureaucracy.
Most companies really strugglewith like figuring out solutions
and implementing them, but likeyou're lacking the balance
strength which would keep youaccountable, and so we really
talked with them a lot about how, when you hire this person, you
can't develop them internallybecause you already hired
(22:29):
everybody that's like yourself.
When you hire this person orthis group of people that will
keep you accountable, that arethese careful people that need
to think before they implementthings that have lots of
questions that will push back.
It will be painful forabsolutely everyone and that
person needs to know, when youhire them, that they are up
against when T people that donot have their strength, that
(22:53):
have been used to having noleash, just sprinting whenever
they want on anything that theywant.
Yeah, so absolutelyaccountability and all the like
details of their specificsituation.
That meant what doesaccountability mean?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So do they end up going that direction and hiring
somebody that wasn't like them?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes.
So this company didn't hire usto do the full implementation.
We built a couple things andgave them some resources and
programmatic supports Long term.
They have hired in a couplepeople that trend this way, but
it is still a challenge for them.
(23:37):
I will say, at the top the CEOit was really hard to digest
what we had delivered and sothere wasn't a full buy-in of
the solution or ability to seehow the solution will help
things get better.
So there have been steps takingtoward that of building in more
(24:02):
accountability naturally intothe employee workspace, but
they're not there yet.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They're working on it .
Yes, so you mentioned buy-in.
That made me think of something.
Another question when you gointo these organizations and
it's like, hey, this is what'sgoing on, here you go, and so do
you not necessarily get all thebuy-in you need from, like, the
supervisors or the employees toparticipate and get the
(24:31):
information that you need.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Step one for us is the person at the very top of
the organization has to be 100%in.
We spend a lot of time beforewe sign a contract talking about
what it is we do, what it'sgoing to feel like, types of
results that we've gotten.
So, by the time we are signingan agreement and starting a
project, the very top one tofive people are fully in.
(24:56):
But, yes, below that and it'shighly dependent on what the
relationship is between theexecutive team and the
supervisors.
But there can absolutely beresistance and it's part of my
job to pick up on that rightaway so I can understand how to
implement how it is that we'regathering information.
Sometimes our survey is online,sometimes by phone, sometimes
I'm there in person, and that'soften dictated by how trusting
(25:20):
that person is of someone thatthis executive team would bring
in.
Our survey is objective.
It's not how do you feel about,it's your observations.
How many times have youobserved X, y or Z?
It's their measuring, theiractual experience.
So there isn't a lot of room tolie and we try to be careful
(25:45):
that there's not a lot ofmotivation to lie either.
So I'll give you an exampleFoundations, like family
foundations or like communityfoundations, that are
philanthropic, so giving outmoney either from a bunch of
tiny grants or they have onethat they're aiming toward a
certain thing.
(26:05):
When we see what was it?
2021, 2022,?
We started turning the modelthat we use into more concrete
tools and I started talking tofoundations and they were very
interested because we couldmeasure the structural integrity
of those that they were givinggrants, to see how likely is it
that this organization is goingto absolutely benefit from the
(26:27):
grant that you give them and beable to use it to serve the
people that they want to serve.
We won't let any foundation useour survey or apply our model
before the grant is given,because there is so much
pressure to just appear the bestyou can to get money and so
(26:50):
anything that could be slanted acertain direction or something
is going to be, because theyneed the money.
They're applying to the grantfor a reason.
So that's an example where,after they get the grant, we're
more than happy to work withthem, either with the grantees
as a group or individually, butbecause there's so much pressure
to lie before.
Not that they're bad people,but like any of us would Just
(27:14):
overselling.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So, ultimately, how does I have psychology help
businesses?
Speaker 1 (27:27):
When you're serious about getting to the core of an
issue and you're okay withtaking an ego hit, it's a good
time to bring in.
I have psychology Organizationsuse.
I have psychology in a fewdifferent ways One you can bring
us in and aim us at a veryspecific issue, so that's
generally what I do.
I'm a consultant.
I'm brought in when you have areally deep challenge or you
(27:49):
have a massive goal thateveryone says is crazy.
You can hire an IO onto yourexecutive team, so a lot of them
will end up in like COO typepositions.
Or you can hire them asindividual contributors, so a
lot of healthcare systems or bigorgs like John Deere, amazon,
(28:12):
rei.
They have groups of IO's thatare either parallel to HR or
within the HR function orleading HR but that are doing
things like building surveysthat only gather exactly what
you want to gather and employeeswant to take them and they can
help you get to your missionmore quickly.
(28:32):
Retention work, recruitment worksome IO's go into that very
specifically.
It's very broad.
You know, for me I'm anentrepreneur and a consultant I
didn't think that's what I wasgoing to do with the degree, but
that's what I'm doing with thedegree.
I thought I was going to end upinside of a big health network
just sitting in a cushy jobdoing surveys or something.
(28:54):
But I kind of get to do all ofit because I'm a consultant.
So that's depending on whatyour need is, you can pull in an
IO.
I had one client that was soexcited about the work that we
did with them that they actuallywent out and hired an IO and
plugged them into.
I think it was the safetyposition in the organization.
(29:16):
It was a manufacturing company,so they knew they wanted an IO
and that was the position thatwas open.
And so they were like we knowwe want an IO in our company and
we need a safety person.
We know that they can do that,so they plugged them in so that
they could access all the IOskills and abilities.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Because you say it's so broad, it's not really a
human resource departmentnecessarily.
So, like when you think of HR,you think of like diversity and
inclusion, employee engagement,motivation, leadership
development.
So how is that similar ordifferent to IO psychology?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Some IOs do go ahead and get certified as HR and some
become CHROs.
I agree with you, though I viewus more as a support to HR.
That's how I started.
My consultancy originally wasto support HR's work and what
they're doing.
I purposefully didn't learn allof the HR stuff because I
didn't want to be a competitor.
(30:14):
I just wanted to be a support.
Let's take, for example,diversity and inclusion.
If you want to make sure thatyou're including people that
have different abilities, havedifferent backgrounds, different
socioeconomic status, you cango out and you can grab
fantastic programs.
You can apply them to yourorganization.
(30:38):
The executive team is going tobe pretty happy with that.
This was what we wanted to do.
We wanted to have moreinclusion.
We applied a program that in 70other companies that's been
proven to improve inclusion.
What an IO is going to do isgoing to measure what that
program does and how it does itagainst your very specific needs
(31:00):
.
If it fits well, great.
We're going to implement it sothat we are absolutely matching
our needs and our goals withwhat this program can do.
Then IO will also be able tosee if this program even though
it's a very sexy program and hasworked for so many of our
competitors or companies that wewant to be like.
We can measure if it's not agood fit for us and why.
(31:23):
So that we can either go find aprogram that will work or build
only exactly what we need tohit our goals?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Ultimately, if someone from the company goes
and finds a one-size-fits-allsystem, but then the IO would
really be like, yes, this works,but we need to change it this
way or no, this doesn't work forus.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, and they'd be able to tell you why Employee
engagement is an area.
For a while I stayed really faraway from that area Employee
appreciation, employeeengagement not from lack of
interest, but because there's somuch out there that just sounds
good but seemed like it wasn'treally working in an
organization.
I'll share a story I wastalking with a young HR
(32:13):
professional really sharp, hadbeen in a large company and then
was brought in as an HR managerkind of leap frog from a lower
position to a higher position ina new company, which is
fantastic, well-deserved, doinga good job.
The company that they hadlanded in was very much like a
family-like environment and didthat environment pretty well.
(32:39):
The employees were stickingaround for a long time.
They were very rarely openings.
When they were, it was usuallybecause someone had retired or
shifted into a higher position.
The company was doing reallywell.
This HR manager wanted to do areally good job and they were
the first HR manager that theorganization had had, so they
didn't have a lot of guidance asto what needs to be done.
(33:00):
The exhausted COO was just likehere, take this part of my job,
do what you do.
They went to this conferenceand heard this cool story about
it was you take bricks paperbricks or whatever and you write
(33:21):
something good that theemployee did or something, and
you put it up on the wall.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I've heard about this .
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yes, sounds good on the surface.
Right Could very well beperfect, exactly what your
organization needed.
But this HR manager implementedthis with a group of people
that already had belonging.
They already knew that theywere valued.
They already knew that theywere doing a good job.
It was a little bit like a17-year-old, like a
(33:52):
four-year-old.
She started implementing thisbecause it wasn't meeting a need
and they were already beyondthat in their relationships with
each other and with theorganization.
It almost had the oppositeeffect.
That's an example of anemployee engagement idea that
(34:13):
sounds really cool, has workedreally good in other
organizations, could absolutelywork good in your organization,
except her organization didn'tneed it.
She didn't actually end uphelping things A because they
didn't really need to be helpedto that much, but also she was
treating people like multiplelevels below where they were as
(34:35):
an organization.
Stuff like that being careful,being able to tease out where is
the program going to matchwhere we are.
That's an employee engagementstory around that concept.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
What about leadership development?
Because, again, I feel likethere's so many webinars,
seminars, people you can hire tocome in and talk to your
company.
You really want your leaders towork on communication, but
maybe what's being presented tothem doesn't really fit what
your actual problem is.
How do you work around that?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, the model that I explained earlier looking at
your values in your mission,your communications and what you
do can actually be applied tothe micro not just one team, but
one individual and evendecision by decision.
You can use it to guide youthrough this.
If you have someone that wantsto be a leader or you know that
(35:32):
you want to implement someleadership pipeline or system in
your organization.
Step one is identifying howdoes this person's core values
support the organization's corevalues?
They're never going to be theexact same set of values, but
how do they support ourorganization's values?
If there's good linkage there,what this person really cares
(35:53):
about absolutely helps supportwhat our company really cares
about.
Then you know, okay, we'restarting in the right place.
Then you can work on things likehow does this person
communicate I'm not just talkingdirectives and how they email
but how does their body languageand how they behave communicate
to other leaders around themand to their direct reports?
(36:15):
I value you.
You belong here.
I belong here as well.
Then do they have the skillsthat they need?
A lot of leadership developmentprograms just focus on the
skills you have the skills,communication being something
that we call a skill.
Yeah, absolutely.
We tend to negate.
Do you belong here?
Is this the right place for you?
(36:36):
Are your values a match for ustoday as it is?
If not, how can we get you tothe point where you're in a
place where you match?
Or maybe we need to help youmove into a different
organization where youabsolutely match?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, I was just going to say what do you do when
you get that leader who theircore values doesn't match your
core values?
Speaker 1 (37:00):
This is tricky.
I'm going to have to be carefulhow I answer this.
So, me as a consultant, that'snot my problem, but it's your
problem.
You can't change someone'svalues.
What you can do is if you havea leader, for whatever reason
(37:21):
they're not going to be leavinganytime soon but their values
don't match your values or theycan't help you get to your team
goal or the organization's goal,what you can do is identify
exactly what their values are,why they believe that, and then
see if you can find a way that,if they behave X way, which is
(37:42):
not what they're doing now ithelps them match one of their
values or get to the thing thatthey want to do.
Do we have time for a storyaround this?
Yep, I want to hear it.
Yes, so this was before I waswith Stokefire, but we worked
with the state of Iowa.
They had a conservativegovernment for decades upon
(38:05):
decades.
It had been 25 years since theyhad raised the gas tax and many
of their politicians had gottenvoted in.
Most of their platform was we'renot going to raise taxes,
period.
A small government did it, didit.
Their roads and their bridgeswere crumbling and one state
over there had actually been adeath because someone was
(38:25):
driving over a bridge in thatstate that had crumbled while
their vehicle was on it.
So the TransportationDepartment knew that this was an
issue.
So every year or every twoyears, the governor of the state
of Iowa would create what'scalled a blue ribbon committee
to look at the state of ourroads and our bridges.
So they would do a study of thestate of our roads and our
(38:49):
bridges and they would bringback the report and there would
be an awards ceremony where,like banquet and like here are
the results handshake photo, theend.
That's it, because we're notraising taxes, period.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
So, like, what was the purpose of that?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
That's a real good question.
So we were brought in.
You know it was a small job.
I think it was just $80,000 isall that.
Stokefire was paid to solve thisproblem that had been around
for 25 years.
That was going to get peoplekilled if we couldn't fix it.
Screaming about it had notworked.
These committees, of course,hadn't worked.
(39:30):
So as Tateland and the originalfounder of Stokefire did
research on politicians ingeneral, he realized if you are
a politician and you solve aproblem before it's a crisis,
it's up to like five pointslower your odds of getting voted
in again.
If you wait until the problemdoes create a crisis, like
(39:52):
people die, then you have up tothree points higher that you
will get voted back in becauseyou came in and you were the
hero and you solved this.
Now, if I'm a politician, it'sa little bit of a thankless job.
I'm there because I believe Iam the right person to solve the
problems of this constituency.
(40:13):
I view my job as getting votedback in.
That's my number oneprerogative.
So am I motivated to solveproblems before they become
crises and I'm not seen as thehero?
I do things that people don'tknow that they need.
There's almost negativemotivation there.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It's like an ethical dilemma, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah.
So what we needed to do wascreate a crisis before there was
an actual crisis.
So we put up billboards andactually we took this to the
state senate ahead of time andmany of them signed on and said
(40:55):
I don't want those billboards inmy area, absolutely don't do
this.
I will sign on.
Billboards would point atdeficient bridges and they would
say you're about to cross astructurally deficient bridge.
Here's a website.
And then the website would givethem all this information and
how to contact theirrepresentative, their state
(41:16):
senator, to ask for taxes to beraised so that we can fix this
and I don't have to drive mykids over this deficient bridge
twice a day.
So we created a crisis.
We got this conservativeconstituency begging to have
their taxes raised, so thegovernor was able to raise taxes
(41:36):
and be the hero when for 25years he hadn't been able to do
that.
In three months we got $3billion raised.
Wow, for 25 years of $0 raised.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Wow.
What was the mayor's initialreaction when you told him what
you were going to do?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
We didn't have much view of that, because the group
we were working with wasn't histeam.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So we're not sure what hethought that he was going to do
for now, but we got it done.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
What was their reactions?
Or just like do it.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Relief.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the team thatbrought us in was astounded and
relieved, which is, yeah,optimal outcomes.
That's what we want, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
So, with IO Psychology, how do you feel or
could you elaborate on how thishelps the future of businesses
or how you see the future of IObeing in the business world?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, io is really geared toward long term.
You would be hard pressed tofind an IO that will give you a
sexy solution that you canimplement today and is only
going to last for three months.
If you have a mission that thepeople you serve can't afford
for you to go under it's tooimportant then you need to be
(43:00):
bringing in an IO.
We measure everywhere that yoursystems and your people
interact and optimize all ofthat.
We also make sure you are fullyaligned with your mission and
your values and yourcommunications and your actions
so that, no matter what hits you, because you're aligned, you
(43:21):
can lean on the strength ofthose three.
Together, you're going to lastthrough it.
That's what an IO can bring you.
Thank you for listening.
Stay tuned for our next episode.
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