June 19, 2025 • 25 mins
Ruth Mulligan demolishes the myth of the "natural speaker" in this conversation that will transform how you think about communication. A TEDx veteran and master storyteller, Ruth reveals why everyone develops speaking habits—and how to ensure yours serve rather than sabotage you.
At the heart of Ruth's approach is a profound belief that "everyone has a voice and everyone has a story." The challenge? Most people need guidance to make their voice heard effectively. Drawing from her new book "The Motivated Speaker," Ruth introduces the concept of "shaded habits"—those small, annoying speech patterns we all have that become major liabilities when illuminated on bigger stages. Whether it's filler words, failing to read the room, or speaking too quickly, these habits can derail your message when it matters most.
Ruth's practical frameworks revolutionize how we structure presentations. She recommends thinking of your content like a family tree—with a main message (the grandparent) that branches into three key points (children), each supporting up to three additional points (grandchildren). This hierarchy brings clarity while preventing information overload. Perhaps most counterintuitively, she insists we start with points before stories, ensuring our narratives serve our message rather than wander aimlessly.
The six principles from her book offer a comprehensive view of speaking: it's habitual, embodied, comes in many genres, is social, fleeting, and messy. Each provides actionable insights, particularly the emphasis on listening to recordings of yourself—uncomfortable yet transformational. As Ruth notes, "one minute of listening to yourself puts you in the audience," creating the perspective shift needed for improvement.
Whether you're delivering boardroom presentations, pitching clients, or simply communicating more effectively with colleagues, Ruth's approach offers a blueprint for becoming the speaker you've always wanted to be. As she reminds us, everyone can improve with practice and the right guidance. Ready to transform your speaking? This conversation is your first step.
Connect & Discover Ruth:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthmilligan/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ruthmilligan/?hl=en
Website: https://www.articulationinc.com/
Book: The Motivated Speaker
FOLLOW MICK ON:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mickunplugged/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mickunplugged/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MickUnpluggedPodcast
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickhunt
Website: https://www.mickhuntofficial.com
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mick-unplugged/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ruth Milligan (00:00):
there's no natural speaker.
(00:01):
No one's born a speaker.
Everyone is habitual, and ifyou are not a good speaker, you
can become one.
If you have a bad habit, youcan work out of it.
Intro (00:13):
Welcome to Mick Unplugged , the number one podcast for
self-improvement, leadership andrelentless growth.
No fluff, no filters, justhard-hitting truths, unstoppable
strategies and the mindsetshifts that separate the best
from the rest.
Ready to break limits, let's go.
Mick Hunt (00:40):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting
episode of Mick Unplugged, andtoday I have a brilliant
storyteller to introduce you to.
She's a TEDx veteran, a masterstoryteller and a coach, shaping
the voice of leaders around theworld, from ideas to impact,
from stages to boardrooms.
She's a visionary, she'sempowering, she's magnetic.
(01:02):
She's a good friend of mine, msRuth Mulligan.
Ruth, how are you doing today,dear?
Ruth Milligan (01:06):
Hi, mick, I'm so good and really honored and
delighted to be here.
I can't wait to have ourconversation.
Mick Hunt (01:13):
Well, I'm the honored one, you are the master
storyteller, and I think everystory as a fellow keynote
speaker starts with what I calla because, that thing that's
deeper than your, why, thatthing, that is really your true
passion, your true purpose.
And so I'd love to hear for thefirst time, ruth Milligan,
(01:34):
what's your because?
What keeps you doing what youdo?
Ruth Milligan (01:39):
Because I really truly believe that everyone has
a voice and everyone has a story.
That might sound trite, but itis true.
Mick Hunt (01:52):
Very true.
Ruth Milligan (01:53):
And everyone needs to practice for it to be
heard.
Mick Hunt (01:59):
Totally agree.
Ruth Milligan (02:01):
And that doesn't go well alone, totally agree.
And that doesn't go well alone.
And we love to be the guide andthe helper, the body double,
the coach, the whatever you wantto call us, to support those
who are trying to find theirplace in the world, in their
lives, in their business.
And it's a delight.
(02:22):
We dedicated the book that justcame out to the speakers that
we work with, because that takesa lot of trust for them to let
us into their worlds and thatall is my because.
Mick Hunt (02:34):
I love that, Ruth, and I love how you broke that
down.
As a speaker, as a coach, yousee a lot right and you help
transform a lot, and the reasonI call you a master is because I
know it's tough.
You know one of my mentors, youknow he calls me his son, I
call him.
My father is Les Brown.
(02:55):
So, like you, Les, you know,started his career in Ohio as
well.
Great storyteller and Les.
The first lesson I ever gotfrom Les is this, and I know you
embody this.
He said, Mick, the key tospeaking is this Never tell a
story without a point and nevermake a point without a story.
Ruth Milligan (03:16):
Love that.
Mick Hunt (03:17):
And if you can master that, you'll speak forever and
you'll be hired forever Becauseso many people, when they go on
stage, it's words, and you'll behired forever Because so many
people, when they go on stage,it's words.
So, ruth, for you, how do youhelp speakers transform what I'm
going to call stories andpoints, points and stories,
because that is something thatyou do brilliantly and you're
one of the few people that I canactually listen to.
Ruth Milligan (03:39):
You're very kind and generous, by the way.
Mick Hunt (03:42):
I've seen a ton of your videos.
I've seen a ton of yourteachings.
I've seen a ton of yourteachings, and that's how I know
that you do that.
Ruth Milligan (03:48):
You do good research so I always start with
the points.
The points are far outweigh thestories and they're very
difficult to organize, bringhierarchy, find the highest
level meaning and if I can getsomebody I did this yesterday on
(04:09):
a call there's a high.
You know I'm working generallyin high stakes presentations,
things with lots of consequencethat could, and the consequence
is how you define it but, it cango from a job interview, your
first interview for ascholarship in college, to a $5
billion contract.
It's your definition of highstakes.
And somebody had written out ascript and I said what are the
(04:32):
three points?
What's the one thing that youwant to get across that's most
important?
And the sort of puzzled lookcomes and I said how can?
we support that and it becomesthe shifting and organizing and
debating.
And I give people this visualwhich hopefully will help your
listeners.
I say think of it like a familytree and there's a grandparent
(04:54):
and that grandparent had threekids and those three kids might
have had three kids on their own.
And those are the most numberof points you're going to get,
and that's all.
Those are the most number ofpoints you're going to get and
that's the hardest part.
Once we get through that mess,the rest of it starts to fill in
the stories.
Then support those points.
(05:15):
If I started with the story, Idon't know where it's going to
lead.
Then that doesn't work.
So points first, then stories Ilove that and then some stories
might be a metaphor, it mightbe a one line, it might be
something longer.
Stories can take on so manydifferent shapes and sizes.
So then there's not like auniform, like every grandchild
is the same size, and I want tomake that point, but I don't
(05:38):
have a story to go with it.
So I might say this is Mick andI are both published by the
same publisher and their adviceto me was until publishing day
it's a sprint, and afterpublishing day it's a marathon
and my publishing day was lastweek and I feel like I just
started a marathon.
(06:01):
That is a story of an author'sjourney.
It doesn't have to be long.
I don't agree when people say Idon't have time to tell stories
.
That's just, you don't havetime to give yourself the
freedom to think about them, tobe vulnerable, to trust that
your audience wants to hear them.
So great.
I love points and stories.
That's terrific.
Mick Hunt (06:20):
I love it and I want to go straight to the book.
The Motivated Speaker.
Yeah Right, the MotivatedSpeaker.
Ruth Milligan (06:28):
That is you, Mick .
Mick Hunt (06:31):
Yes.
Ruth Milligan (06:31):
You are the ultimate you are.
It is not about motivationalspeaking.
Mick Hunt (06:36):
No.
Ruth Milligan (06:36):
This is about wanting to learn.
That's what this book is about.
Mick Hunt (06:40):
Totally agree, and because I truly feel everyone
may not be a keynote speaker, no, but everyone needs the skills
of speaking.
Whether you're doingpresentations, sales calls,
training your employees, right,everyone needs the skill of
(07:01):
speaking, and I think thatthat's what this book truly
delivers, right, like I wouldalmost call it a blueprint in
modern day form.
Ruth Milligan (07:12):
And may I quote you a blueprint, and I love that
.
Mick Hunt (07:15):
A blueprint in modern day form Absolutely, absolutely
.
Ruth Milligan (07:18):
We, we sought that, so I think we did it.
And what I love most about ourwriting process is what is
process is that we didn't setout to write a book.
We specifically set out toanswer a question how can we be
better coaches to our speakers?
And we sought out a writingscholar who I knew from my alma
(07:42):
mater, miami University, whotaught us the notion of
threshold concepts, which arethose troublesome, recursive,
nudgy things that you have topush through in order to get to
the learning.
Remember trying to learncalculus, and if you didn't get
that one, I can't tell you whatit is because I don't remember
calculus.
Those are the liminal spaces.
(08:05):
They feel uncomfortable.
When you get there, you're like, oh, I don't want to be here.
But when you get to the otherside for learning to speak and
that's what the book ended upbeing, because we spent a year
writing, blogging, thinkingabout what were the calls that
(08:27):
we'd get from people that didn'tdo well and what were they
missing along the way.
And so those are the sixprinciples, and then we put a
modern day blueprint in the backof every skill that you need to
learn to speak.
So if you are a fifth grader andyou are 10 years old and I had
a fifth grader start to read thebook last week with a
(08:48):
highlighter, somebody who gotthe book at the event and sent
me a picture the next morning ofher daughter who was there.
And I got on stage and I saidthis book is meant to be read
with a highlighter and post-itnotes and she said, mom, look,
I'm on page 25 and I've alreadyhighlighted the things I want to
remember.
This book is for her.
(09:08):
It's also for the 65 year oldwho's starting a consulting
practice in theirsemi-retirement.
I have a client like that who'slearning about what she needs
to know, about speaking that shenever learned, so it is at its
heart, a self-help book thatreads like a novel, as someone
else said.
Mick Hunt (09:29):
I love that.
Ruth Milligan (09:30):
So stories and points, we have three different
voices of stories in there fromour three coaches, and then we
have a collective voice ofperspective and tips and advice
that we have spent the betterpart of 15 years assembling.
Mick Hunt (09:46):
So I love this place, Honestly.
I love it.
So I want to go into some ofthe principles in the book and
oh, by the way, ruth doesn'tknow this and those that my, my
avid followers and listenersknow I always do this when I
have a great book that Ispecifically endorse.
And listeners know I always dothis when I have a great book
that I specifically endorse.
If you message me and it's gotto be the first 10 people
message me motivated speaker Idon't care what platform
(10:08):
LinkedIn, instagram, whateverand I am going to go send you a
copy of the book.
So, ruth, I'm buying 10 copiesor I'm going to buy 20 copies.
I'm giving 10 away to thelisteners and viewers and I'm
going to give 10 to some of myfamily.
Ruth Milligan (10:20):
That- and I'm giving 10 away to listeners and
viewers, and I'm going to give10 to some of my family and I'm
going to send you 10 of thosemyself.
Mick Hunt (10:26):
Well, I'm purchasing 20.
Ruth Milligan (10:28):
So if 30 show, up .
Mick Hunt (10:29):
30 show up, but I'm purchasing 20.
Ruth Milligan (10:31):
You are.
You're a hero.
That sounds great.
We want as many people to beable to get it as possible for
sure, perfect.
Mick Hunt (10:38):
So let's talk about some of the principles.
What do people that are, I'mgoing to say, truly speaking?
Just because you've been on astage also doesn't mean that
you're a speaker.
So I'm going to debunk somemyths right now and hurt some
feelings.
That's okay.
Some feelings need to be heard,right right.
What are a couple of key thingsthat people that want to speak,
(11:04):
that want to improve theirspeaking or that just want to
get started?
What are a couple of things?
Ruth Milligan (11:09):
all six, but very quickly, and I will tell you
the top two of the six, and thetop two are the first one and
the last one, so you have tolisten all the way through.
Mick Hunt (11:28):
Let's go.
Ruth Milligan (11:29):
First one is there's no natural speaker.
No one's born a speaker.
Everyone is habitual and if youare not a good speaker you can
become one.
If you have a bad habit, youcan work out of it.
So that's number one.
(11:52):
Number two speaking is embodied.
By the way this is not embodied, imagine how much energy I was
expending being who I thought Ihad.
That's reading someone'swritten word.
Right Comes through eye contact, body, hand gestures, our soma,
our bones, our energy, ourspace.
(12:12):
You know how we move in space.
Speaking is embodied.
Number three speaking comes inmany genres.
This is a genre.
I know that you and I are setup to have a conversation.
This is not meant for me tocome on here and monologue to
you.
A panel should be a dialogue,not a monologue.
Often isn't.
A keynote has a genre, aninterview has a genre, and if
(12:37):
you're not ruthlesslyinterrogating them, I say that
pun intended, no pun, you'reright.
Mick Hunt (12:41):
Then you're not ruthlessly interrogating them.
I say that pun intended.
No pun, you're right.
Ruth Milligan (12:44):
Then you're going to miss something.
You're going to not read theroom, you're not going to know
how long to go, you're not goingto know what kind of seat
you're in, right.
So speaking comes in manygenres.
Speaking is social, and we havethe uh.
We can edit that out.
Speaking is social, and we havethe uh we could edit that out.
Speaking of social our audiencesmake meaning of our words.
(13:07):
You start talking in jargon toan audience that doesn't get the
jargon.
They're not going to listen toyou.
It is fleeting.
Actually, one of my childhoodfriends posted on LinkedIn this
morning one sentence from thebook that struck her most.
She was the former CIO of OhioState.
She's big brain.
(13:27):
Speaking, they will forget thewords, and this is sort of the
Maya Angelou quote, right, butit's because speaking is
fleeting.
We don't actually remember whatyou said.
So we have to really thinkabout the impact we want to make
.
Speaking is, of course.
(13:50):
There's always one that Ialways sort of gloss over, but
the last one, I'll come back.
The last one, the mostimportant one, is speaking
requires feedback.
Yes, and your own yes Are thebookmark that we had made.
Since you think speaking, publicspeaking, is hard, imagine
(14:11):
trying to watch yourself on arecording.
That's harder.
Yeah, we are really reluctantto listen to ourselves speak.
Now, as a podcast host, you doall the time, so you catch
things in your edits and reviewthat have made you a better
speaker, naturally even though Isaid speaking isn't natural,
(14:32):
but the process of listening toyourself.
I had a speaker not want tolisten to themselves and refused
then in that moment to notlearn and not get better.
It's so painful, but one minuteof listening to yourself puts
yourself in the audience and allof a sudden, you're like wait,
(14:52):
do I want to be listening tomyself?
Yeah, I don't think so.
Right?
So the first one and the lastone are definitely the most
important.
Speaking is habitual, speakingrequires feedback and, oh,
speaking is messy.
That's the last one.
There's always something weforget.
Speaking is messy, and thisgoes back to the points.
There's a messy middle in everytalk we give.
(15:14):
We think we know what we'regoing to say and we think we're
down, and then all of a suddenwe have to switch.
It's like a train track.
We have to switch over to adifferent lane and we have to be
willing to be uncomfortable andwrong and we have to be willing
not to be perfect the firsttime.
We try, yep, and when you arewilling to do that, then it'll
flow and you run it by people,the right people with the right
(15:36):
feedback.
Speaking is messy and sometimeswe forget things.
Anyway, those are the six.
It's as fast as I can do them.
We are unpacked, each one ofthose, with sub points and lots
of stories, but we tuck thosestories in once the six are
finished.
So back to your point.
Mick Hunt (15:54):
No, I love that, ruth , because I tell people the same
thing.
I don't call it messy, and soI'm not going to take that
because it's yours.
I always tell people thatspeaking is complex, but, to
your point, you've got topractice and you've got to
rehearse, and I know it's boring, right, yes, but this is why
you have to do it, becauseyou've got to feel the audience,
(16:17):
right.
If there's one thing that Ilearned from, there's many
things I learned from Les Brown,but if there's an important
piece, it's listen to thelistening.
Yes, from Wes Brown, but ifthere's an important piece, it's
listen to the listening.
Ruth Milligan (16:28):
And he says that's where speakers go wrong,
because you've got this pointthat you want to make right and
maybe in your mind what ifyou're making that point and we
can see each other?
Yeah, yeah, exactly by the way,the listeners can't see that
unless they're watching thevideo.
But my daughter is two yearsolder than my son and my son
will start talking aboutsomething very nerdy and she
(16:50):
won't say anything.
She'll just put her head back.
Mick Hunt (16:54):
Right.
Ruth Milligan (16:56):
It's hilarious.
She won't even say anything tohim, like I'm not listening.
She just tells him through hernonverbals I'm not listening,
and if he misses it, it's evenfunnier.
Right, we have to speak.
We have to listen to thelistening, or speak to the
listening, as we like to say.
We have to address it.
I need to say, is that pointmaking it for you, cause it
(17:16):
sounds like it might be bored,or you're distracted, or are you
texting for dinner?
Mick Hunt (17:21):
No, exactly, and what I got from Les is this, right,
like you've got maybe fourpoints that you want to make in
a 30-minute keynote, right, yeah, maybe, but if the listening
says that point one is the point, then you've got to know.
All right, I'm only going toget to three points and the
(17:42):
point that I'm making here isthis You've got to know how to
tell your point or get to yourpoint in a 60 second version.
Ruth Milligan (17:50):
Yes.
Mick Hunt (17:51):
A three minute version, a seven minute version,
because when you're listeningto the listening, you never know
where that's going to go.
And I, you know, I have a lotof friends that are comedians
and they do the same thing,right Like this joke might not
be hitting and I need to knowhow to wrap it up in 60 seconds,
or the audience is loving thisjoke.
How can I keep hammering thisjoke over and over again?
(18:13):
And now it's a five minute bit.
But from a speaker'sperspective, that should be the
best feeling.
When what you thought was gonnabe a three minute point, you
can feel the audience and nowyou can go places and make that
point five, seven, 10 minutes.
And now you're engaged, they'reengaged and you just had an
impactful keynote.
(18:34):
But you rehearsed it, youpracticed it, going back to your
point.
It's complex, it's never thesame.
I can take the same keynote,ruth, and do that keynote 15
different ways because of theaudience listening or the
audience reaction, and it's alsowho came before you, and did
you have coffee or not?
Ruth Milligan (18:54):
Is it after lunch ?
Like there's so manyenvironmental things that you
have to take into consideration.
Hey, Mick, can I run my onesentence?
Keynote promise by you.
Mick Hunt (19:03):
Let's do it.
Ruth Milligan (19:05):
Somebody taught me early in my career that you
don't have a keynote unless youhave a promise.
What do I promise to leave you?
So we've been working on whatis that thing that we would say?
Or you know, it's becausenobody wants to like be lectured
about the threshold concepts.
They are important to read anddigest.
So here it goes.
Let's see if I can get it down.
(19:28):
In every situation when you'respeaking there's something you
do that's a little annoying,could be a filler word, might
talk on too long, talk too fast,not read the room.
I call that a shaded habit, nota habit in the shadows, but
(19:49):
something that's everyone cansee.
It's just a little muted andeveryone goes yeah, that's just
Mick.
But the minute you move tosomething illuminated an
executive presentation, a boardpresentation, a keynote stage, a
very big business pitch there'sno more shade and that carries
(20:10):
with you and now becomes a riskof them not hearing you, of them
getting in your own way, ofyour message.
And it's my presumption thateveryone's got at least one
shaded habit, at least oneshaded habit.
(20:30):
And so in the next, in ourkeynotes, we invite people and
we tell a few stories to getthem thinking and then we invite
them to whiteboard, and I didit last night and I had a
hundred habits on a whiteboardbehind me within like a minute
and a half and we see, kind ofby a vote, which one is the most
pervasive in the room, and thenwe go there and we work on it.
Wow, what do you think?
Mick Hunt (20:49):
That's amazing.
That's why you're brilliant,Ruth.
Ruth Milligan (20:52):
Oh, I'm not brilliant, but we've been
working that.
That.
That took a lot of mess to getto as a demonstration for your
listeners.
We started in many differentplaces.
How do you actually take 240pages of content and distill it
down?
That makes it relevant in alive setting?
Just hard, it's really hard,but we're excited.
We're excited about that andhopefully that struck a chord
(21:15):
with you.
Mick Hunt (21:16):
It did, it did.
Ruth, and I know we're short ontime, but, goodness, I could
talk to you forever.
Ruth Milligan (21:22):
Really quick, you can do part two.
Mick Hunt (21:25):
We're definitely going to do part two, because we
haven't even talked about TEDx,columbus and all the cool
things you're doing with TEDxand all of that I did officially
retire.
Ruth Milligan (21:35):
I don't know how many others have retired, but we
had to give it up in COVID.
I did it for 2009 to 2021.
Mick Hunt (21:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Milligan (21:43):
And I would be delighted to come back, and it's
still going strong, but it wasthe seminal moment for me in
shifting my business to doingthis work.
Mick Hunt (21:53):
Cool.
Well, that's going to segueinto my top five with Ruth.
Okay, here we go.
This is my quick five One.
What is your favorite TEDx talkof all time?
Ruth Milligan (22:04):
Oh, you got to cut this out.
There's three and I want togive the one.
It's oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry.
The lawyer, theAfrican-American lawyer, help me
out, brian Stevenson.
(22:24):
My favorite talk of all time isBrian Stevenson.
Mick Hunt (22:27):
Brian Stevenson Got it, love it.
We're going to follow up onthat one.
On part two yes, what is yourgo-to ritual before stepping on
stage?
Ruth Milligan (22:36):
It starts several weeks before, and the exact
moments before is I put my notesdown and I tell myself I got
this.
Mick Hunt (22:45):
Love it, love it.
What's the most surprisinglesson you've learned as a coach
?
Ruth Milligan (22:52):
That I have to go to where people are, but keep
in mind where I want them to be.
I like that that was an earlyhard lesson.
I have this expectation.
I want them to be here.
It may take us seven steps,when I thought it would only
take two.
Mick Hunt (23:08):
I love that.
Ruth Milligan (23:09):
And my clients now tell me trust Ruth and trust
the process.
Like they'll say you know, gowork with Ruth.
I'll get invited to anotherteam and they'll say just trust
the process, because I have cometo believe that everyone will
get there, but maybe atdifferent speeds and different
paces.
So that was, that was.
That's been everything for me.
Mick Hunt (23:29):
Mick is realizing that everyone's got a different
pathway but I keep in mind whatI need them to do at the end
Describe Ruth, describe Ruth inone word.
Ruth Milligan (23:43):
Full, ooh, I like that describe Ruth in one word
full.
I have had a full life.
I have, I'm full of ideas.
I have full expectations forpeople.
I feel very full in myprivilege and my opportunities
and I'm full of family.
I just feel right now, at leastin this moment in my life, I'm
(24:04):
an author now.
My children are both in college.
Paid off my house, I feel full.
Mick Hunt (24:10):
I love that, I love that.
And then the last one where doyou want people to go buy this
book?
Ruth Milligan (24:17):
It's kind of a tricky question today For
purposes of reviews.
I would like you to buy it onAmazon and I would like you to
buy.
I would like you to review it.
Mick Hunt (24:28):
All right.
Ruth Milligan (24:29):
I'm a big independent bookstore person
though, so go find, go ask yourindependent bookstore and
support them through bookshop.
I'm, you know I'm I'm a littletorn because the book industry
creates a little bit of tension,but it's on all the channels,
and themotivatedspeakercom willtake you there.
Mick Hun (24:47):
Themotivatedspeakercom .
I'm going to have that in theshow notes in the description.
Ladies and gentlemen, this ismy good friend, ruth Milligan.
Ruth, thank you so much foryour time today.
You mean the world to me, sothank you.
Ruth Milligan (24:58):
Mick, thank you, what a delight.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Mick Hunt (25:03):
You got it To all the viewers and listeners.
Remember your because is yoursuperpower.
Go unleash it.
Outro (25:12):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.
If today hits you hard, thenimagine what's next.
Be sure to subscribe, rate andshare this with someone who
needs it and, most of all, makea plan and take action, because
the next level is alreadywaiting for you.
Have a question or insight toshare?
Send us an email to hello atmickunpluggedcom.
(25:36):
Until next time, ask yourselfhow you can step up.
there's no natural speaker.
(00:01):
No one's born a speaker.
Everyone is habitual, and ifyou are not a good speaker, you
can become one.
If you have a bad habit, youcan work out of it.
Intro (00:13):
Welcome to Mick Unplugged , the number one podcast for
self-improvement, leadership andrelentless growth.
No fluff, no filters, justhard-hitting truths, unstoppable
strategies and the mindsetshifts that separate the best
from the rest.
Ready to break limits, let's go.
Mick Hunt (00:40):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting
episode of Mick Unplugged, andtoday I have a brilliant
storyteller to introduce you to.
She's a TEDx veteran, a masterstoryteller and a coach, shaping
the voice of leaders around theworld, from ideas to impact,
from stages to boardrooms.
She's a visionary, she'sempowering, she's magnetic.
(01:02):
She's a good friend of mine, msRuth Mulligan.
Ruth, how are you doing today,dear?
Ruth Milligan (01:06):
Hi, mick, I'm so good and really honored and
delighted to be here.
I can't wait to have ourconversation.
Mick Hunt (01:13):
Well, I'm the honored one, you are the master
storyteller, and I think everystory as a fellow keynote
speaker starts with what I calla because, that thing that's
deeper than your, why, thatthing, that is really your true
passion, your true purpose.
And so I'd love to hear for thefirst time, ruth Milligan,
(01:34):
what's your because?
What keeps you doing what youdo?
Ruth Milligan (01:39):
Because I really truly believe that everyone has
a voice and everyone has a story.
That might sound trite, but itis true.
Mick Hunt (01:52):
Very true.
Ruth Milligan (01:53):
And everyone needs to practice for it to be
heard.
Mick Hunt (01:59):
Totally agree.
Ruth Milligan (02:01):
And that doesn't go well alone, totally agree.
And that doesn't go well alone.
And we love to be the guide andthe helper, the body double,
the coach, the whatever you wantto call us, to support those
who are trying to find theirplace in the world, in their
lives, in their business.
And it's a delight.
(02:22):
We dedicated the book that justcame out to the speakers that
we work with, because that takesa lot of trust for them to let
us into their worlds and thatall is my because.
Mick Hunt (02:34):
I love that, Ruth, and I love how you broke that
down.
As a speaker, as a coach, yousee a lot right and you help
transform a lot, and the reasonI call you a master is because I
know it's tough.
You know one of my mentors, youknow he calls me his son, I
call him.
My father is Les Brown.
(02:55):
So, like you, Les, you know,started his career in Ohio as
well.
Great storyteller and Les.
The first lesson I ever gotfrom Les is this, and I know you
embody this.
He said, Mick, the key tospeaking is this Never tell a
story without a point and nevermake a point without a story.
Ruth Milligan (03:16):
Love that.
Mick Hunt (03:17):
And if you can master that, you'll speak forever and
you'll be hired forever Becauseso many people, when they go on
stage, it's words, and you'll behired forever Because so many
people, when they go on stage,it's words.
So, ruth, for you, how do youhelp speakers transform what I'm
going to call stories andpoints, points and stories,
because that is something thatyou do brilliantly and you're
one of the few people that I canactually listen to.
Ruth Milligan (03:39):
You're very kind and generous, by the way.
Mick Hunt (03:42):
I've seen a ton of your videos.
I've seen a ton of yourteachings.
I've seen a ton of yourteachings, and that's how I know
that you do that.
Ruth Milligan (03:48):
You do good research so I always start with
the points.
The points are far outweigh thestories and they're very
difficult to organize, bringhierarchy, find the highest
level meaning and if I can getsomebody I did this yesterday on
(04:09):
a call there's a high.
You know I'm working generallyin high stakes presentations,
things with lots of consequencethat could, and the consequence
is how you define it but, it cango from a job interview, your
first interview for ascholarship in college, to a $5
billion contract.
It's your definition of highstakes.
And somebody had written out ascript and I said what are the
(04:32):
three points?
What's the one thing that youwant to get across that's most
important?
And the sort of puzzled lookcomes and I said how can?
we support that and it becomesthe shifting and organizing and
debating.
And I give people this visualwhich hopefully will help your
listeners.
I say think of it like a familytree and there's a grandparent
(04:54):
and that grandparent had threekids and those three kids might
have had three kids on their own.
And those are the most numberof points you're going to get,
and that's all.
Those are the most number ofpoints you're going to get and
that's the hardest part.
Once we get through that mess,the rest of it starts to fill in
the stories.
Then support those points.
(05:15):
If I started with the story, Idon't know where it's going to
lead.
Then that doesn't work.
So points first, then stories Ilove that and then some stories
might be a metaphor, it mightbe a one line, it might be
something longer.
Stories can take on so manydifferent shapes and sizes.
So then there's not like auniform, like every grandchild
is the same size, and I want tomake that point, but I don't
(05:38):
have a story to go with it.
So I might say this is Mick andI are both published by the
same publisher and their adviceto me was until publishing day
it's a sprint, and afterpublishing day it's a marathon
and my publishing day was lastweek and I feel like I just
started a marathon.
(06:01):
That is a story of an author'sjourney.
It doesn't have to be long.
I don't agree when people say Idon't have time to tell stories
.
That's just, you don't havetime to give yourself the
freedom to think about them, tobe vulnerable, to trust that
your audience wants to hear them.
So great.
I love points and stories.
That's terrific.
Mick Hunt (06:20):
I love it and I want to go straight to the book.
The Motivated Speaker.
Yeah Right, the MotivatedSpeaker.
Ruth Milligan (06:28):
That is you, Mick .
Mick Hunt (06:31):
Yes.
Ruth Milligan (06:31):
You are the ultimate you are.
It is not about motivationalspeaking.
Mick Hunt (06:36):
No.
Ruth Milligan (06:36):
This is about wanting to learn.
That's what this book is about.
Mick Hunt (06:40):
Totally agree, and because I truly feel everyone
may not be a keynote speaker, no, but everyone needs the skills
of speaking.
Whether you're doingpresentations, sales calls,
training your employees, right,everyone needs the skill of
(07:01):
speaking, and I think thatthat's what this book truly
delivers, right, like I wouldalmost call it a blueprint in
modern day form.
Ruth Milligan (07:12):
And may I quote you a blueprint, and I love that
.
Mick Hunt (07:15):
A blueprint in modern day form Absolutely, absolutely
.
Ruth Milligan (07:18):
We, we sought that, so I think we did it.
And what I love most about ourwriting process is what is
process is that we didn't setout to write a book.
We specifically set out toanswer a question how can we be
better coaches to our speakers?
And we sought out a writingscholar who I knew from my alma
(07:42):
mater, miami University, whotaught us the notion of
threshold concepts, which arethose troublesome, recursive,
nudgy things that you have topush through in order to get to
the learning.
Remember trying to learncalculus, and if you didn't get
that one, I can't tell you whatit is because I don't remember
calculus.
Those are the liminal spaces.
(08:05):
They feel uncomfortable.
When you get there, you're like, oh, I don't want to be here.
But when you get to the otherside for learning to speak and
that's what the book ended upbeing, because we spent a year
writing, blogging, thinkingabout what were the calls that
(08:27):
we'd get from people that didn'tdo well and what were they
missing along the way.
And so those are the sixprinciples, and then we put a
modern day blueprint in the backof every skill that you need to
learn to speak.
So if you are a fifth grader andyou are 10 years old and I had
a fifth grader start to read thebook last week with a
(08:48):
highlighter, somebody who gotthe book at the event and sent
me a picture the next morning ofher daughter who was there.
And I got on stage and I saidthis book is meant to be read
with a highlighter and post-itnotes and she said, mom, look,
I'm on page 25 and I've alreadyhighlighted the things I want to
remember.
This book is for her.
(09:08):
It's also for the 65 year oldwho's starting a consulting
practice in theirsemi-retirement.
I have a client like that who'slearning about what she needs
to know, about speaking that shenever learned, so it is at its
heart, a self-help book thatreads like a novel, as someone
else said.
Mick Hunt (09:29):
I love that.
Ruth Milligan (09:30):
So stories and points, we have three different
voices of stories in there fromour three coaches, and then we
have a collective voice ofperspective and tips and advice
that we have spent the betterpart of 15 years assembling.
Mick Hunt (09:46):
So I love this place, Honestly.
I love it.
So I want to go into some ofthe principles in the book and
oh, by the way, ruth doesn'tknow this and those that my, my
avid followers and listenersknow I always do this when I
have a great book that Ispecifically endorse.
And listeners know I always dothis when I have a great book
that I specifically endorse.
If you message me and it's gotto be the first 10 people
message me motivated speaker Idon't care what platform
(10:08):
LinkedIn, instagram, whateverand I am going to go send you a
copy of the book.
So, ruth, I'm buying 10 copiesor I'm going to buy 20 copies.
I'm giving 10 away to thelisteners and viewers and I'm
going to give 10 to some of myfamily.
Ruth Milligan (10:20):
That- and I'm giving 10 away to listeners and
viewers, and I'm going to give10 to some of my family and I'm
going to send you 10 of thosemyself.
Mick Hunt (10:26):
Well, I'm purchasing 20.
Ruth Milligan (10:28):
So if 30 show, up .
Mick Hunt (10:29):
30 show up, but I'm purchasing 20.
Ruth Milligan (10:31):
You are.
You're a hero.
That sounds great.
We want as many people to beable to get it as possible for
sure, perfect.
Mick Hunt (10:38):
So let's talk about some of the principles.
What do people that are, I'mgoing to say, truly speaking?
Just because you've been on astage also doesn't mean that
you're a speaker.
So I'm going to debunk somemyths right now and hurt some
feelings.
That's okay.
Some feelings need to be heard,right right.
What are a couple of key thingsthat people that want to speak,
(11:04):
that want to improve theirspeaking or that just want to
get started?
What are a couple of things?
Ruth Milligan (11:09):
all six, but very quickly, and I will tell you
the top two of the six, and thetop two are the first one and
the last one, so you have tolisten all the way through.
Mick Hunt (11:28):
Let's go.
Ruth Milligan (11:29):
First one is there's no natural speaker.
No one's born a speaker.
Everyone is habitual and if youare not a good speaker you can
become one.
If you have a bad habit, youcan work out of it.
So that's number one.
(11:52):
Number two speaking is embodied.
By the way this is not embodied, imagine how much energy I was
expending being who I thought Ihad.
That's reading someone'swritten word.
Right Comes through eye contact, body, hand gestures, our soma,
our bones, our energy, ourspace.
(12:12):
You know how we move in space.
Speaking is embodied.
Number three speaking comes inmany genres.
This is a genre.
I know that you and I are setup to have a conversation.
This is not meant for me tocome on here and monologue to
you.
A panel should be a dialogue,not a monologue.
Often isn't.
A keynote has a genre, aninterview has a genre, and if
(12:37):
you're not ruthlesslyinterrogating them, I say that
pun intended, no pun, you'reright.
Mick Hunt (12:41):
Then you're not ruthlessly interrogating them.
I say that pun intended.
No pun, you're right.
Ruth Milligan (12:44):
Then you're going to miss something.
You're going to not read theroom, you're not going to know
how long to go, you're not goingto know what kind of seat
you're in, right.
So speaking comes in manygenres.
Speaking is social, and we havethe uh.
We can edit that out.
Speaking is social, and we havethe uh we could edit that out.
Speaking of social our audiencesmake meaning of our words.
(13:07):
You start talking in jargon toan audience that doesn't get the
jargon.
They're not going to listen toyou.
It is fleeting.
Actually, one of my childhoodfriends posted on LinkedIn this
morning one sentence from thebook that struck her most.
She was the former CIO of OhioState.
She's big brain.
(13:27):
Speaking, they will forget thewords, and this is sort of the
Maya Angelou quote, right, butit's because speaking is
fleeting.
We don't actually remember whatyou said.
So we have to really thinkabout the impact we want to make
.
Speaking is, of course.
(13:50):
There's always one that Ialways sort of gloss over, but
the last one, I'll come back.
The last one, the mostimportant one, is speaking
requires feedback.
Yes, and your own yes Are thebookmark that we had made.
Since you think speaking, publicspeaking, is hard, imagine
(14:11):
trying to watch yourself on arecording.
That's harder.
Yeah, we are really reluctantto listen to ourselves speak.
Now, as a podcast host, you doall the time, so you catch
things in your edits and reviewthat have made you a better
speaker, naturally even though Isaid speaking isn't natural,
(14:32):
but the process of listening toyourself.
I had a speaker not want tolisten to themselves and refused
then in that moment to notlearn and not get better.
It's so painful, but one minuteof listening to yourself puts
yourself in the audience and allof a sudden, you're like wait,
(14:52):
do I want to be listening tomyself?
Yeah, I don't think so.
Right?
So the first one and the lastone are definitely the most
important.
Speaking is habitual, speakingrequires feedback and, oh,
speaking is messy.
That's the last one.
There's always something weforget.
Speaking is messy, and thisgoes back to the points.
There's a messy middle in everytalk we give.
(15:14):
We think we know what we'regoing to say and we think we're
down, and then all of a suddenwe have to switch.
It's like a train track.
We have to switch over to adifferent lane and we have to be
willing to be uncomfortable andwrong and we have to be willing
not to be perfect the firsttime.
We try, yep, and when you arewilling to do that, then it'll
flow and you run it by people,the right people with the right
(15:36):
feedback.
Speaking is messy and sometimeswe forget things.
Anyway, those are the six.
It's as fast as I can do them.
We are unpacked, each one ofthose, with sub points and lots
of stories, but we tuck thosestories in once the six are
finished.
So back to your point.
Mick Hunt (15:54):
No, I love that, ruth , because I tell people the same
thing.
I don't call it messy, and soI'm not going to take that
because it's yours.
I always tell people thatspeaking is complex, but, to
your point, you've got topractice and you've got to
rehearse, and I know it's boring, right, yes, but this is why
you have to do it, becauseyou've got to feel the audience,
(16:17):
right.
If there's one thing that Ilearned from, there's many
things I learned from Les Brown,but if there's an important
piece, it's listen to thelistening.
Yes, from Wes Brown, but ifthere's an important piece, it's
listen to the listening.
Ruth Milligan (16:28):
And he says that's where speakers go wrong,
because you've got this pointthat you want to make right and
maybe in your mind what ifyou're making that point and we
can see each other?
Yeah, yeah, exactly by the way,the listeners can't see that
unless they're watching thevideo.
But my daughter is two yearsolder than my son and my son
will start talking aboutsomething very nerdy and she
(16:50):
won't say anything.
She'll just put her head back.
Mick Hunt (16:54):
Right.
Ruth Milligan (16:56):
It's hilarious.
She won't even say anything tohim, like I'm not listening.
She just tells him through hernonverbals I'm not listening,
and if he misses it, it's evenfunnier.
Right, we have to speak.
We have to listen to thelistening, or speak to the
listening, as we like to say.
We have to address it.
I need to say, is that pointmaking it for you, cause it
(17:16):
sounds like it might be bored,or you're distracted, or are you
texting for dinner?
Mick Hunt (17:21):
No, exactly, and what I got from Les is this, right,
like you've got maybe fourpoints that you want to make in
a 30-minute keynote, right, yeah, maybe, but if the listening
says that point one is the point, then you've got to know.
All right, I'm only going toget to three points and the
(17:42):
point that I'm making here isthis You've got to know how to
tell your point or get to yourpoint in a 60 second version.
Ruth Milligan (17:50):
Yes.
Mick Hunt (17:51):
A three minute version, a seven minute version,
because when you're listeningto the listening, you never know
where that's going to go.
And I, you know, I have a lotof friends that are comedians
and they do the same thing,right Like this joke might not
be hitting and I need to knowhow to wrap it up in 60 seconds,
or the audience is loving thisjoke.
How can I keep hammering thisjoke over and over again?
(18:13):
And now it's a five minute bit.
But from a speaker'sperspective, that should be the
best feeling.
When what you thought was gonnabe a three minute point, you
can feel the audience and nowyou can go places and make that
point five, seven, 10 minutes.
And now you're engaged, they'reengaged and you just had an
impactful keynote.
(18:34):
But you rehearsed it, youpracticed it, going back to your
point.
It's complex, it's never thesame.
I can take the same keynote,ruth, and do that keynote 15
different ways because of theaudience listening or the
audience reaction, and it's alsowho came before you, and did
you have coffee or not?
Ruth Milligan (18:54):
Is it after lunch ?
Like there's so manyenvironmental things that you
have to take into consideration.
Hey, Mick, can I run my onesentence?
Keynote promise by you.
Mick Hunt (19:03):
Let's do it.
Ruth Milligan (19:05):
Somebody taught me early in my career that you
don't have a keynote unless youhave a promise.
What do I promise to leave you?
So we've been working on whatis that thing that we would say?
Or you know, it's becausenobody wants to like be lectured
about the threshold concepts.
They are important to read anddigest.
So here it goes.
Let's see if I can get it down.
(19:28):
In every situation when you'respeaking there's something you
do that's a little annoying,could be a filler word, might
talk on too long, talk too fast,not read the room.
I call that a shaded habit, nota habit in the shadows, but
(19:49):
something that's everyone cansee.
It's just a little muted andeveryone goes yeah, that's just
Mick.
But the minute you move tosomething illuminated an
executive presentation, a boardpresentation, a keynote stage, a
very big business pitch there'sno more shade and that carries
(20:10):
with you and now becomes a riskof them not hearing you, of them
getting in your own way, ofyour message.
And it's my presumption thateveryone's got at least one
shaded habit, at least oneshaded habit.
(20:30):
And so in the next, in ourkeynotes, we invite people and
we tell a few stories to getthem thinking and then we invite
them to whiteboard, and I didit last night and I had a
hundred habits on a whiteboardbehind me within like a minute
and a half and we see, kind ofby a vote, which one is the most
pervasive in the room, and thenwe go there and we work on it.
Wow, what do you think?
Mick Hunt (20:49):
That's amazing.
That's why you're brilliant,Ruth.
Ruth Milligan (20:52):
Oh, I'm not brilliant, but we've been
working that.
That.
That took a lot of mess to getto as a demonstration for your
listeners.
We started in many differentplaces.
How do you actually take 240pages of content and distill it
down?
That makes it relevant in alive setting?
Just hard, it's really hard,but we're excited.
We're excited about that andhopefully that struck a chord
(21:15):
with you.
Mick Hunt (21:16):
It did, it did.
Ruth, and I know we're short ontime, but, goodness, I could
talk to you forever.
Ruth Milligan (21:22):
Really quick, you can do part two.
Mick Hunt (21:25):
We're definitely going to do part two, because we
haven't even talked about TEDx,columbus and all the cool
things you're doing with TEDxand all of that I did officially
retire.
Ruth Milligan (21:35):
I don't know how many others have retired, but we
had to give it up in COVID.
I did it for 2009 to 2021.
Mick Hunt (21:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Milligan (21:43):
And I would be delighted to come back, and it's
still going strong, but it wasthe seminal moment for me in
shifting my business to doingthis work.
Mick Hunt (21:53):
Cool.
Well, that's going to segueinto my top five with Ruth.
Okay, here we go.
This is my quick five One.
What is your favorite TEDx talkof all time?
Ruth Milligan (22:04):
Oh, you got to cut this out.
There's three and I want togive the one.
It's oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry.
The lawyer, theAfrican-American lawyer, help me
out, brian Stevenson.
(22:24):
My favorite talk of all time isBrian Stevenson.
Mick Hunt (22:27):
Brian Stevenson Got it, love it.
We're going to follow up onthat one.
On part two yes, what is yourgo-to ritual before stepping on
stage?
Ruth Milligan (22:36):
It starts several weeks before, and the exact
moments before is I put my notesdown and I tell myself I got
this.
Mick Hunt (22:45):
Love it, love it.
What's the most surprisinglesson you've learned as a coach
?
Ruth Milligan (22:52):
That I have to go to where people are, but keep
in mind where I want them to be.
I like that that was an earlyhard lesson.
I have this expectation.
I want them to be here.
It may take us seven steps,when I thought it would only
take two.
Mick Hunt (23:08):
I love that.
Ruth Milligan (23:09):
And my clients now tell me trust Ruth and trust
the process.
Like they'll say you know, gowork with Ruth.
I'll get invited to anotherteam and they'll say just trust
the process, because I have cometo believe that everyone will
get there, but maybe atdifferent speeds and different
paces.
So that was, that was.
That's been everything for me.
Mick Hunt (23:29):
Mick is realizing that everyone's got a different
pathway but I keep in mind whatI need them to do at the end
Describe Ruth, describe Ruth inone word.
Ruth Milligan (23:43):
Full, ooh, I like that describe Ruth in one word
full.
I have had a full life.
I have, I'm full of ideas.
I have full expectations forpeople.
I feel very full in myprivilege and my opportunities
and I'm full of family.
I just feel right now, at leastin this moment in my life, I'm
(24:04):
an author now.
My children are both in college.
Paid off my house, I feel full.
Mick Hunt (24:10):
I love that, I love that.
And then the last one where doyou want people to go buy this
book?
Ruth Milligan (24:17):
It's kind of a tricky question today For
purposes of reviews.
I would like you to buy it onAmazon and I would like you to
buy.
I would like you to review it.
Mick Hunt (24:28):
All right.
Ruth Milligan (24:29):
I'm a big independent bookstore person
though, so go find, go ask yourindependent bookstore and
support them through bookshop.
I'm, you know I'm I'm a littletorn because the book industry
creates a little bit of tension,but it's on all the channels,
and themotivatedspeakercom willtake you there.
Mick Hun (24:47):
Themotivatedspeakercom .
I'm going to have that in theshow notes in the description.
Ladies and gentlemen, this ismy good friend, ruth Milligan.
Ruth, thank you so much foryour time today.
You mean the world to me, sothank you.
Ruth Milligan (24:58):
Mick, thank you, what a delight.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Mick Hunt (25:03):
You got it To all the viewers and listeners.
Remember your because is yoursuperpower.
Go unleash it.
Outro (25:12):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.
If today hits you hard, thenimagine what's next.
Be sure to subscribe, rate andshare this with someone who
needs it and, most of all, makea plan and take action, because
the next level is alreadywaiting for you.
Have a question or insight toshare?
Send us an email to hello atmickunpluggedcom.
(25:36):
Until next time, ask yourselfhow you can step up.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.