June 17, 2025 • 41 mins
What happens when two of America's most fearless voices on race come together for an unfiltered conversation? In this powerful episode, host Mick sits down with Emmy and Peabody-winning storyteller W. Kamau Bell and education equity architect Glenn Singleton to explore what drives their decades-long commitment to racial justice.
The conversation dives deep into what Bell calls "the Black baton" – the generational responsibility passed down through families to make life better for those who come after. "When my grandparents handed the black baton to my parents, it was lighter than when they got it," Bell explains, describing his mission to ensure it doesn't become heavier during his lifetime. Singleton echoes this sentiment, sharing that his work stems from recognizing that his generation has "more than we've ever had" and feeling responsible to continue the progress.
Both men offer practical wisdom about having these crucial conversations. Singleton breaks down his groundbreaking "Beyond Diversity" framework, celebrating its 30th anniversary, which begins with the fundamental question: "What impact does race have on my life?" Bell shares how he navigates these discussions with his three daughters, emphasizing that even his seven-year-old understands political realities in age-appropriate ways. "Justice is sometimes a thing you see that authority will tell you not to see," he explains, highlighting how he empowers his children to recognize injustice.
Perhaps most valuable is their guidance for those hesitant to engage in race conversations for fear of saying something wrong. Bell suggests examining your social circle – are you surrounded by people who will lovingly "call you in" when you misspeak? Singleton adds that understanding the "paramount importance of racial justice" in American society is the starting point, followed by recognizing that "race is a symbol of power" with whiteness at the top of the hierarchy.
Whether you're a parent trying to have these conversations with your children, a professional navigating workplace dynamics, or simply someone committed to building a more equitable society, this episode offers both inspiration and practical approaches to moving beyond comfort into the spaces where real change happens.
Connect & Discover W. Kamau & Glenn:
W. Kamau:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wkamaubell/
Website: https://www.wkamaubell.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wkamaubellofficial/
Substack: @wkamaubell
Book: The Awkward Thoughts of W. Kamau Bell
Glenn:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courageousdove444/
Website: https://courageousconversation.com/
Book: Courageous Conversations About Race
Event: Beyond Diversity
FOLLOW MICK ON:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mickunplugged/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mickunplugged/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MickUnpluggedPodcast
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickhunt/
Website: https://www.mickhuntofficial.com &am
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Glenn Singleton (00:00):
we have to do the first work of looking inward
right and we have to ask thatsimple question of you know,
what impact does race have on mylife and what impact does my
race have on my life?
And as I look around mycommunity, how is race playing
out there?
Intro (00:21):
Welcome to Mick Unplugged , the number one podcast for
self-improvement, leadership andrelentless growth.
No fluff, no filters, justhard-hitting truths, unstoppable
strategies and the mindsetshifts that separate the best
from the rest.
Ready to break limits?
Let's go Break limits, let's go.
Mick Hunt (00:48):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another
exciting episode of MickUnplugged, and today I've got a
special moment.
I've got two guests and we'regoing to talk about it all.
One is an Emmy and Peabodywinning storyteller who uses
comedy to confront culture,peabody winning storyteller who
uses comedy to confront culture,and the other is an education
(01:08):
equity architect, redefining howwe talk about race in America.
Together, they're pushing pastcomfort to spark the real change
that we need today.
Please join me in welcoming thebrave, the brilliant, the
uncompromising two guys that Ilook up to the most W Kamau Bell
and Glenn Singleton.
Gentlemen, how are you bothdoing today?
W. Kamau Bell (01:27):
I mean, I know Glenn's used to those kind of
intros but I'm still gettingused to them so I know Glenn is
like that's exactly as it is.
Mick Hunt (01:35):
Glenn actually sent me everything to say about him
ahead of time.
He was like it has to be.
These do not sway from the textExactly.
Read it just like this.
W. Kamau Bell (01:48):
This is not a suggestion, right?
If it?
Mick Hunt (01:49):
doesn't go down this way.
It's not going down at all,yeah bad.
So, glenn, I'm actually goingto start with you.
I, I, I like talking about yourbecause that thing that's
deeper than your, why, right,like simon scenic wrote a book,
start with why, and I thinkeverybody got stuck there.
Right, you start with why, butit's your because that really
keeps you going.
(02:09):
So again, glenn, I'll startwith you.
Man, if I were to say what'syour because today, what's that
purpose, that passion behindwhat you do?
What is that?
Glenn Singleton (02:18):
You know, what is so clear to me is that
everybody who's looked like mehas had this journey before me,
and when I think about you knowcoming all the way across, you
know, the grounds of West Africathrough the Transatlantic slave
(02:38):
trade up through slavery, jimCrow, you know all of these
moments of oppression for peoplelike us when we get to my
generation and we have more thanwe've ever had, and so I just
feel like it can't fall apartwith me.
(03:00):
Wow.
Mick Hunt (03:02):
Wow, I love that.
I love it, love.
I'm taking some notes because Ihave a follow-up question on
something you said.
But come out, man, I'm gonnagive you the floor now.
What is your because?
Why do you continue to do whatyou do?
W. Kamau Bell (03:15):
I mean the uh, the flippant and probably truest
answer is because, uh, me andmy wife have three kids and I
can't just be like good luck.
I feel a responsibility to makesure that the world is as easy
a place to navigate for my threedaughters, my three mixed-race
(03:36):
black daughters, as possible,and I sort of think of it as the
black baton.
Like when my grandparentshanded the black baton to my
parents, it was lighter thanwhen they got it because they
had gotten it from people whohadn't been that disconnected
from enslavement.
And then when my mom passed itto me and my dad passed it to me
, it was much lighter becausethey had gone through the civil
(03:57):
rights movement and everythingthat that entailed there and
pushed the black people forward,black folks forward.
And I got it.
It I'm like it might be heavierthan when I had, when I handed
to my daughters, and so my goalright now is to sort of make
sure that I do everything I canto make sure that when I hand
them the black baton that it'snot heavier than it was when I
got it, which is going to be alot, but it but looks like I got
(04:20):
glenn and you and other peopleworking on that too.
So I mean, I think the otherthing is like I grew up in a
household where you sort of knewyou had two jobs the job to put
food on the table and the jobto make it easier on all the
people who look like you, whocouldn't get what you got.
And there wasn't really achoice there.
No, it was just.
It's what we do.
So this is just.
(04:41):
I think if I was a car mechanic, I'd be an anti-racist car
mechanic.
Mick Hunt (04:52):
I just think this is just a part of the deal.
I love that man, I love thatand I'm going to tie that into
the conversation I wanted tohave with you, glenn, and both
you.
Kamau is this Glenn, you saidwe have more now than we've ever
had.
Right, and I truly believe that.
I also feel to that point,enough of us don't realize that.
Right, because those are thethings that aren't talked about.
(05:14):
Right, and I'm not sayingeveryone and everything, but
we'll talk about Lil Wayne'salbum that just dropped and how
good or great that wasn't right,but we won't talk about Nobody
said it was good, slow down,slow down, slow down.
W. Kamau Bell (05:26):
Nobody said it was good.
Let's not put misinformationout there.
Mick Hunt (05:32):
Okay, continue he said it was good.
Whoever was in the productionbooth said it was good, but
Glenn man.
So how do we spark thoseconversations internally so that
we can have them externally,Because you do a brilliant job
of that, right?
I mean, you're a consultant toFortune 100, to Fortune 50
(05:54):
companies forget 100, rightRight on.
How do you lead thoseconversations internally first,
so that we can have them outside?
Glenn Singleton (06:01):
but we can have them outside.
Well, you know, when I talkabout having so much, oftentimes
we get hung up with the newshiny stuff, right.
So, absolutely, it takes lesstime for me to create the
guidelines for a conversation inthese corporations now because
(06:22):
I've got friendly AI.
Okay, we never had that right,I didn't even have a cell phone
when I was building this work atthe beginning, right.
So this is.
You know, this is three decadesdeep and so, you know, with
those two, there's a whole groupof people who have now
flourished from these moderntechnologies and from, you know,
(06:43):
the hard work that theentertainers, the athletes, the
corporate people have donebefore, and they've got bank to
prove it right.
So, when I think about what'sin the community in terms of
resources right now, and I thinkabout the challenges facing our
community third grade readinglevel in every major city across
(07:06):
the country for black childrenI'm pushing right now on the
multimillionaires and thebillionaires to figure out.
You know what it is that you'redoing with all that extra right
, Because you only can live inone house, you only can drive
one car, and it can be a niceone and it can be a big one, OK,
but after that, that, that,that space that's sitting around
(07:29):
, those those extra materialthings that the ploy of
capitalism have really hurt usthere.
And then the second thing, I'mgoing to the other side of the
prism, and the other side of theprism is what requires our
consciousness.
Because, you know, when I sitand talk with my 80-year-old
mother, I get the pearls right.
She tells me no, don't go thatway.
(07:50):
Don't go that way Becausethey're not going to like it
right.
And so if I'm trying to getfrom A to Z and I know I'm
already running into a roadblock, okay, then why wouldn't I
avoid that if my purpose, aswe've talked about, is to not
fail us right now?
(08:10):
And so when I think of thetrajectory from, you know, that
elder and ancestral wisdom, okay, all the way up to the modern
technology and the material,we've got a buttload of stuff
that we can use right now to getthis thing moving in a way that
those elders and ancestorswould be proud of us.
Mick Hunt (08:32):
Oh, man, I love that and I'm right there with you.
So, kamau, for you.
You talked about that baton,right, and how heavy it is right
.
And, just like you, I havethree mixed race Black kids,
right.
Black children they don't liketo be called kids anymore, so
Black children, how do you havethat conversation about the
(08:53):
baton internally with yourchildren?
W. Kamau Bell (08:58):
Let's see, my seven-year-old hates the
president and we'll say it outloud and while and I'm in and
you know, and while we may, wecan have a grownup discussion
about hate.
I think it's it's very savvy ofher to understand that this
person is not on my side, youknow.
And so therefore, I put thatperson into the hate camp along
(09:18):
with, like you know, lima beans,whatever you want to say.
So for me, the idea that myseven-year-old is aware of the
state of the world, and awareand even in a sort of a
seven-year-old way, is reallyimportant to me because it means
that, like, if you cause somepeople grow up not being aware
of the state of the world, andthen, when they're full grown
adults, you've had conversationswith them and they're like so
they say something like well,you know how many senators are
(09:40):
there, and you're like, oh no,which?
And it's fine and I will tellyou and we can have a
conversation.
But I think, the more that inmy house I grew up as an only
child, I heard my mom havingevery conversation, and so with
my kids they seem they'rehearing me have a lot of
conversations.
They're also seeing my work.
They're also seeing how peopletalk to me in the street, so
(10:01):
they're aware that, like datadoes things where he has to talk
to people about the state ofthis country regularly and
they've heard me speak enough toknow which sides we're on and
that we and they, that we wantto be on the side of the people,
and the people does.
It's not just people who looklike us and we live in oakland
so they can see those people.
And so then you have, like my,uh, my 14 year old, who just
(10:22):
graduated from eighth grade, who, as part of her graduation
celebration, her advisor saidand Sammy Bell, who, thanks to
her and the administrator whotalked to her, now every kid in
this school knows the words tolift every voice and sing,
because my daughter sang it atevery school function.
(10:43):
She was like at every school andthere was a black woman who
works in school who asked her toand sammy did it and I said,
sam, you got to learn the words,you got like we, you know, like
you can't fump her through anyof it, we're probably not going
to do the second verse, butlearned it anyway.
And so that's a kid who is like,just through the power of her
voice because she has a goodvoice, is engaging a little bit
of activism by teaching somewhite kids in her school and
(11:06):
some non-black kids about thewords of the different voices
and saying and so for me there'smore than one way to do this,
but I think it's important thatmy kids are aware of what's
going on in the world, and my10-year-old, who's pretty shy
like I was when I was her age, Igo look, you're never going to
get in trouble with me if you'redefending yourself or somebody
else who needs to be defended,you think needs to be defended,
(11:28):
and that's a very basic thing.
But I think it's cool.
You might hear the teacher saidI can do this and that and I go
.
Whatever the teacher says, youcome home to me and we'll take
care of it.
And so for me, creating a senseof like justice is not always
in the hands of authority.
Justice is sometimes a thingyou see, that authority will
tell you not to see, and so weare engaged in those
(11:48):
conversations regularly in ourhousehold, and we also celebrate
Kwanzaa, which is the finalpiece of raising a Black family.
Mick Hunt (11:59):
Man, that is deep.
That is deep.
But you're right, man,everything, again, I've been a
big believer.
I was raised that you can'thave outside conversations if
you don't have them inside first.
Right, and so my grandparentsinstilled that in me, my parents
instilled that in me, andthat's what I do with my
children as well, too is we gotto talk about it, because one,
if you don't know your truth, ifyou don't, if you can't have
(12:21):
your own voice in here, you'llnever have it out there.
And so you know and I know,glenn, that's something that
you're passionate about as welltoo that's a pillar that you
have, man, and I want to applaudyou and talk a little bit about
Beyond Diversity and all thegood things that's going on
there.
Talk to the viewers andlisteners a little bit about
that, because to me, beyondDiversity isn't just a
(12:43):
conversation, man, it's.
You know, in the 60s or 70s wewould call it a movement, right,
like, like.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
Glenn Singleton (12:51):
Right.
Well, you hit on the firstpillar right of beyond.
Diversity is a trainingframework that I wrote over 30
years ago.
So we're celebrating the markerof 30 years at LBJ Library next
week, right, and I think it'sfitting that that's where we're
going, because before we eventhink about the great society
(13:16):
and the civil rights movementand, you know, gaining insights
from that past, we have to dothe first work of looking inward
right and we have to ask thatsimple question of you know,
what impact does race have on mylife and what impact does my
race have on my life?
(13:37):
And as I look around mycommunity, how is race playing
out there?
So that when I come talk to youand Kamal I'm, I'm already at
that place of racialintrospection and my
consciousness is is moving mebeyond the first trappings of
defensiveness and fear and allof those things that we've been
(14:00):
given about this topic to whoa.
There's some power here.
Been given about this topic towhoa.
There's some power here, right.
And so 30 years ago, you know, Iwas looking at all of these
disparities in education.
I have worked in corporate andadvertising, and so I'm seeing
that we are just not reflectedin the goodies of society at the
(14:22):
same proportion that we live inthis society.
And so for me, the equitablefuture, the mark of racial
equity, is when we start to seeourselves proportionately
represented in all the goodstuff.
Right, all the good stuff.
And so if you can walk aroundsociety and say, hey, that's
(14:43):
good, right To be on a board,hey, that's good to be CEO, hey,
that's good to be at the top ofthe class when I graduate, or
to go off to the movement ofsociety, to that place of the
elusive, yet tangible sometimes,equality.
Mick Hunt (15:15):
Man.
So I'm going to tell you thisyou don't know this, glenn man,
I'm going to try not to getemotional.
I don't get emotional, but I'mgoing to hold it in.
Man.
So you know, been a huge fan ofyours for a long time, before
the internet and all that Like,I knew who you were and I was
one of those kids I can callmyself a kid then that you were
talking to man Like I had to bethe best at everything.
(15:37):
I did right, like my graduatinghigh school.
If I didn't have a scholarship,mike could have gone to college
, but I couldn't have ascholarship.
Mike could have gone to college, but I couldn't have gone to
the college.
I wanted to go to Right and soI genuinely had to be the best
so that I could get either anacademic or athletic scholarship
.
But then, when I got to collegeUniversity of North Carolina,
(15:58):
by the way, go Hills when I gotto college, that same mentality
was there, because I knew that Ihad a purpose to show everybody
that looked like me that we canbe excellent, right, that we
don't have a ceiling and theceilings that we have are the
ones we put on ourselves.
Now, not saying the world isfair, never going to say that
(16:21):
there are things we're going tohave to fight for that other
people don't have to fight for.
But damn it, I'm going to fight, right.
And so, glenn, I wanted to tellyou thank you for for being
that for me when you never knewthat you were a man.
Glenn Singleton (16:34):
Oh, brother, thank you, thank you for that
and those skills that all threeof us have developed.
You know, and, and Kamala and Icarry this, carry this special
pressure of being the only oneof the next generation, and it's
only this, only child syndrome.
But we learn to be excellentand the world would be a great
(16:55):
place if people had that skillof a desire to be excellent,
right.
So it's nothing wrong with that.
It's just that when you have tobe excellent and you might not
be noticed as that, yeah Right,as you look around and we think
about the conditions which we'reliving in right now the irony
Right Of the challenge to DEIwhere, you know, we have just
(17:21):
installed an entire governmentof people who are not excellent-
that's the nicest way to say it.
W. Kamau Bell (17:31):
They're an entire government of people who are
not excellent.
Glenn Singleton (17:35):
That is not excellent right, Not excellent
in the way that you need it tobe at Chapel Hill, right, Not
working over in the high schooldistrict right beside you, where
this is a community ofexcellence and a resource
community.
But we couldn't get the blackchildren and the brown children
to the top of the class so thatthey could continue to walk
(17:57):
right on over to that university, right?
And so that's why we cametogether to make sure that your
excellence was marked asexcellent and to make sure that
those who were not feelingexcellent were given the
resources so at least they couldbe that if they put in the
effort.
Mick Hunt (18:17):
Yes, sir, yes sir.
Now, kamau, I get to give yousome praise that you don't know
about man.
In my household we watch a lotof the things that you've
written that you don't knowabout man.
So in my household, you know,we watch a lot of the things
that you've written, that youproduce.
We've seen specials.
I want to talk about who's withme, man, like like seeing the
title of this tour and I knowyou're.
You're going towards the, theback leg of the tour.
(18:39):
I'm a little upset you're notgoing to be in greenville, south
carolina first of all, I we'restill adding dates.
W. Kamau Bell (18:45):
I will be in Durham and Charleston, literally
that's what I was going to say.
Mick Hunt (18:50):
I know you go back to back in Charleston and Durham.
I'm going to have to come seeyou in one of those too, man.
Glenn Singleton (18:57):
Talk to us about the framework.
The community center was killer, by the way.
W. Kamau Bell (19:02):
That was a special night.
Glenn Singleton (19:06):
I can't imagine where you are right now, kamal,
yeah, yeah.
Mick Hunt (19:08):
So.
So talk to us about theframework of this tour, man,
like everything from the name,because the name of the tour is
so compelling, right, and me andmy children talked about it,
but the message that you'retrying to to send the tour Like,
talk to us a little bit aboutthat development.
W. Kamau Bell (19:29):
Well, I mean.
So you know a lot of us whowork in the, the sort of the
showbiz I was going to try tofigure out a nicer way to say it
.
But just in Hollywood had theone, two punch of.
So post George Floyd's murderby Minneapolis, hollywood was
like we need to talk to moreblack creators and we need to
give them a voice and let them.
And so a lot of projects weregreenlit in that moment.
One of the projects that I gotwas a thousand percent me
(19:50):
growing up mixed.
That was about my mixed kidsand also other mixed kids in the
Oakland Bay area, which wasgreat.
But a lot of projects gotgreenlit but never got made
because by the time it was timeto make them, we'd already had
the backlash to the, to all thedei, and suddenly all the dei
people got fired.
I had a lot of means with a lotof black women who were in
charge of dei, of these, some ofthese corporations, who then
(20:11):
weren't there.
Months later you'd send anemail that said does not work
here anymore.
And then I had a deal gothrough.
So, and then the, then thestrike happened, the writers in
the actor strike, and althoughwe won, I I'm in both those
unions.
We won a lot of what we wantedthey.
What they did was we're justgoing to stop employing you,
we're just going to stop.
(20:31):
So we're going to stop makingcontent.
Famously, warner brothers, whoown CNN, where I used to work,
stopped for stopped thepost-production on a on the bat
woman movie in post-production.
So they were already $90million in and it was like a
black Batwoman, which I don'tknow if that's why they stopped
it but didn't help it, I'm sure.
(20:52):
But they were just like we'drather use this as a tax
write-off than release this as afilm, even though the directors
were in the edit bay twoEgyptian directors, I believe.
Again, who knows if this is allconnected we're in the edit bay
editing, finishing the movie,and they're like stop your work,
it's never coming out.
And so there came a point wherethere's people I know in
(21:14):
Hollywood who haven't workedsince the strikes, and that's
when I had this moment and a lotof projects I thought I was
going to do just sort ofdisappeared and I'd stopped
doing stand-up comedy and I hadthis moment of like, wait a
minute.
I was raised by janet cheathambell.
I was raised by walter alfredbell and sometimes people would
(21:34):
ask me what are your parents?
What did your parents do for aliving when you were growing up
and I wanted to go?
They're hustlers, but not inthe way you think, and my and my
mom's dad uh, father smithcheatham was one of those guys
who would walk onto a job siteand just start working.
He's like you don't work here,but wait, you did better than
everybody else.
You work here now.
He was just like I'm going toget a job, and so I chose as an
(21:54):
opportunity to start to reallylike okay, what can I do?
Well, I know I can write.
Where can I take my writing?
So I went to Substack, got ridof, went to Substack and was
able to go.
Okay, now that I can dowhatever I want to do.
What is the goal here?
And the goal is to find outwho's with me.
Like you know what I mean, likeyou know literally, it's that
simple.
Who is who believes 80% of thethings I do, and we can talk
(22:17):
about the other 20%, or who whobelieves very little of what I
believe, but seems like I'mmaking some good points and I
want to at least work throughthis, and so for me, that's
where the.
You know, it's sort of.
I always feel like it's like aflip on Kendrick Lamar's way of
saying it is they're not like us.
My way of saying it is who'swith me?
It's a Kyler Gentler way ofsaying they're not like us.
And so, and I know that for myCNN train and I got a lot of
(22:41):
people who are with me who don'tlook like me, a lot of older
white conservative folks whojust like the way I said stuff
and came to realize some thingsthey never thought about before.
And then, because I've donepodcasting, there's a lot of
younger folks with me, a lot ofblack and brown activists who
have been inspired by my work.
And I'm just trying to I feellike this is just me trying to
build the coalition, as asMartin Luther King Jr did
(23:02):
towards the end of his life thathe, I guess I was going to say
he didn't know, he knew whenit's like.
It's more than about black andwhite.
It's about race, it's aboutclass, it's about the United
States affecting the entireworld.
And so for me then it becametime to like I got back into
stand-up and I very quickly waslike oh, I'm still asking who's
(23:22):
with me?
This is all connected,especially because I started the
Substack before Trump.
But once Trump was in office itwas like oh, it's still, it's
definitely who's with me now.
Because I think before we canfigure out what we do, we've got
to figure out who's on our side.
Mick Hunt (23:35):
And right now in LA, people are in the streets
standing up to fascism,literally looking around and
going oh these are all thepeople who are with me, and it's
not just Latinos, it's not justpoor folks, it's all sorts of
types of people who are in yourcoalition.
So that's where that comes from.
(23:55):
I love that, and I want to godeeper with both of you on that,
too, because when you havepeople like yourselves and us,
the work that we do can never bealone, right, and so there are
always people that don't looklike us, that maybe don't even
have the same political viewsthat we have, but also know good
(24:17):
versus evil, right, and so talkto us about that, of how you
know.
It's a coalition of people.
It's a coalition of entitiesthat actually help make the
things that we do happen.
Glenn Singleton (24:31):
Well, so so many, I mean if, if, if people
don't want to, you know, strollthe history so far back.
If we, if we just look at youknow this, this first design of
the Great Society neitherKennedy nor LBJ were really
interested in the cause.
Ok, their purpose was somethingcompletely different, and
(24:55):
oftentimes that same purposethat you see pervading those,
those Congress halls of Congressright now they want to get
reelected, they want to, theywant to keep the gig going.
Right, right, reelected, theywant to keep the gig going.
And also, america has thisinteresting part of its culture
that we want to show the worldthat we're great even though
(25:15):
we're not acting great inside.
And so these two forces werehappening, right, and the
Kennedys, and then LBJ, theycame to understand that there is
some goodness in this moralobligation for all folks to feel
real citizenship and dignity.
But they also recognize that itwas in their best interest to
(25:42):
calm the storms.
And that's what I worry abouttoday, mick, because this
particular government is notinterested in harmony and peace
and community in this country.
They're interested in their ownindividual personal gains.
And so I don't know how youtalk to people who are only
(26:04):
interested in themselves.
Right, because there's nothingthat we have here.
So I think our coalition now isreally important to to come
together as people who have abigger interest than just
ourselves.
We're looking for, you know,what's going to happen for our
children.
We're thinking about theelderly, you know, and all of
(26:25):
those things, and as we servethem, as we serve them, we
actually serve ourselves bettertoo, and so that's the message.
When folks come in, you know,and they're sort of directed one
way on immigration and I'mdirected over here on racial
justice, okay, I've got to helpthem to see that when we all win
(26:47):
, we all win.
Right, that's that.
That's the key in here, totallyagree, totally agree.
Mick Hunt (26:54):
Come out your side on that one.
W. Kamau Bell (26:56):
I mean mostly, as you saw, I was dancing while he
was talking.
I was like, yes, yes, yes.
So the part that I reallystarted excited about was you
talk about?
Lbj and Kennedy weren't justborn into wanting to be on the
right side of history.
I mean, let's be clear,especially the Kennedys, they
were a couple generations awayfrom being bootleggers.
A lot of this is like thesepoliticians putting their
(27:19):
fingers in the air and seeingwhich way the wind is blowing.
And right now I'm in the middleof a lot of online back and
forth with people, becausethere's a lot of excitement in
some parts of California aboutGavin Newsom basically standing
up to Trump and putting out somevideos saying, hey, if you want
to treat California this way,we're going to stop paying into
this American system, sincewe're the fourth largest economy
(27:43):
in the world.
If we just stop paying into thesystem, the country falls, the
country collapses and a lot ofpeople got excited and I think
that's great.
But you know, I'm also don'ttalk about it.
Be about it, you know, and andI just and I was sort of seeing
some Californians who I know belike we got to be careful with
Newsom, because he's not alwayson our side.
He's not always clearly on ourside, he's not always.
He just he just started apodcast where he's interviewing
(28:06):
right-wing people.
He also made gay marriage legal.
He also won a universal healthcare, but he didn't want $35
insulin.
There's just a lot.
There's just a lot.
There's just a lot.
He has many pictures of himdismantling homeless encampments
, but looking good looking.
So it gets confusing.
So I've just been here to sayhey guys, let's not get.
(28:34):
Yes, yes, he's saying the rightthing, but let's also not
forget who he is, and the numberof people who are like this is
why the left can't ever win.
This is why democrats can'tever da, da, da.
This is why we're justbasically let him cook,
basically what they're sayinglike let him.
And I and I brought up theexample of like, do you think
lbj signed or pushed the civilrights act of 1964 because he
was excited about it?
No, he pushed it because MartinLuther King Jr wouldn't stop
showing up in his office and hewas like I got a lot of people
outside who are marching thisway.
(28:55):
He was pushed into doing thatand at some point realized I
want to be on the right side ofhistory, whether or not he had a
moral thing or not, that's forhis biographers to talk about.
But from the outside outside,it was clear without mlk it
doesn't happen, it doesn'thappen, and so it's because.
(29:16):
So my feeling is like we youknow we have politicians only
exist to be pushed into theright forms and functions.
Even if you support them, 99 ofthe time there's gonna be one
person timing.
You're like, hey, and look, mymayor is barbara lee.
I don't know when she's been onthe wrong side of history, but
when she is eventually like, Iwill be there to say hey,
barbara, I need you to so.
But I think that, like wereally we, so many of us we're
(29:38):
so scared that we're looking fora hero instead of looking at
ourselves and going what can Ido?
So you want newsome to handleit and hope that he just handles
it and takes care of it so youcan get back to Pilates, and I'm
saying like, hey, maybe you canhave an anti-racism Pilates
session and figure out what thatis.
I'm not telling you not to doyour Pilates instead of just
(29:59):
hoping that Newsom is the herothat we've always wanted when no
politician is.
Mick Hunt (30:06):
Agree.
I talk to people all the timeabout when you understand the
politics of politics, nothingactually surprises you, because
it's one of those things likeI'm going to do this,
everybody's going to be excitedabout it.
But there's these other fourbills that I'm going to push
through with this one big onethat the world sees, but I'm
going to push these others thatthey're not going to realize for
(30:27):
a couple of months, a couple ofyears, and then they're going
to be like oh wait, what wasthis?
Well, you wanted this big shinything over here.
Well, to get this big shinything, I had to pass these other
three or four things that goalong with it.
W. Kamau Bell (30:38):
As my mom used to say or says, the only thing you
can trust less a politician whodoesn't want your vote is a
politician who wants your vote.
It's easier to deal with apolitician who doesn't want your
vote.
You can, you can sort of likecause you kind of know what that
guy's going to do, but thepolitician who wants your vote
might say anything.
Mick Hunt (30:59):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
All right, you guys have beengracious with your time.
I'm going to ask each of youlike one closing question and,
Glenn, I want to go with youbecause you know you pioneered
the courageous conversationsframework and I think you know,
today more than ever and I'm noteven talking about politics
here I think today more thanever, courageous conversations
(31:20):
need to happen, man.
So, like, how does someonestart that dialogue today with
your framework?
Glenn Singleton (31:29):
Right.
So the first thing that thatI'm going to suggest even before
you you go through the Internet, buy a book, you know, take a
seminar on courageousconversation is you just get a
sense of the paramountimportance of racial justice in
this society.
Right, this cannot be whateverybody understands America to
(31:53):
be without racial justice.
You just have to cross throughthat and so establishing that
personal relationship to race inyour life and to this
trajectory of showing up on theside of anti-racism, right, and
that is the on-ramp.
Once you get into that on-rampand you get into these
(32:16):
conversations across the board,you're going to find people who
don't agree with you, and ratherthan a retreat from that,
that's when you know that you'reentering the next level.
Right, because we can all sitaround and talk about people who
pretty much share those, youknow, those experiences and
understandings of race.
But it's when you get to peoplewho don't live the same
(32:39):
experience and their politicscould be on the same side, or
shade of blue, ok, but, butthey're just having a different
experience.
Or shade of blue, okay, butthey're just having a different
experience.
And so we've got to be open toreally having the questions in
that nuance.
And then finally, finally, wegot to get to the place of
understanding that race is asymbol of power, right, it's
(33:01):
metaphorical, right, and so yougotta not see that.
You know we're all the same andyou know all of those things
red, black, yellow, green, whiteyou know all the stories that
you're told.
No, no, no, there is ahierarchy of power, right, and
you've got to understand thisprinciple of whiteness.
You've got to see whitesupremacy and you've got to see
(33:24):
anti-black racism, these twoparts of that continuum, right,
and as you can step into thosethree levels, it's about me,
definitely.
There are multipleunderstandings and experiences
existing and there is thissystem of power race.
That is about a hierarchy thatholds power at white.
When you get that, we're readyto go.
(33:45):
Everything can change, it's notthat?
Mick Hunt (33:49):
hard, Not that hard?
Absolutely.
Come out for you, man One.
Congratulations on CelebrityJeopardy Absolutely.
W. Kamau Bell (34:00):
I jumped up when you won.
For all the smart Negroes whowere bullied.
I'm here for you.
Mick Hunt (34:08):
I know DonorsChoose was happy about that too.
I'm a big supporter of schoolsystems, so I know that was
amazing.
So my question for you, that Iwant you to be able to give
insight to the viewers andlisteners.
So for that person that'slistening or watching right now,
that's afraid to say somethingwrong, right, what's some advice
(34:30):
, what's some courage, somepower you can give that person
or those people today?
W. Kamau Bell (34:37):
I would say if you're afraid to say something
wrong, I would first say youneed to do an audit of your
friend group and see who you'resurrounding yourself with.
That you can't be honest withwho you are, with who you are
sitting near and who you areregularly in conversation with.
So it doesn't mean that I don'tthink I'm going to say
something wrong, but I feel like, if I do, I am surrounded by
(34:59):
people who want to go hey, comeout, come here for a second.
No, and they're going to do itwith love unless I keep doing it
, unless I keep saying it.
You know what I mean.
It's Adrian Brown taught me thedifference between calling in
and calling out.
They're going to call me in andif you haven't figured out a
way to have a friend group thatis also smart enough in
(35:22):
different areas and have enoughdifferent experiences and
backgrounds that you don't feellike you can be lovingly called
in and you don't have people whocan do that, then you need to
look at yourself and go who didI surround myself with?
This goes back to the Lil Waynealbum.
Clearly, lil Wayne is notsurrounded by people who can be
like hey, man, maybe not 19tracks, maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda
(35:43):
is not the right producer foryou.
Whatever, he doesn't have thosepeople around him.
So just so understand, be yourdon't, don't end up in that
situation is what I'm saying.
Like you have to, and then youhave to know that you're going
to say something wrong sometimeIf you're trying and I know this
is a standup comedian If wedon't try to say the wrong thing
(36:04):
, we're never going to say thefunny thing Right Now.
Sometimes the wrong thing is sowrong people write you up in an
article about it.
But I feel like that's just thenature of the business and you
just got to.
As a stand-up comedian, I'mnever going to go through what
Lenny Bruce went through orwhere he got arrested for saying
the wrong thing Although maybeI am.
Now we're going to a differentera of America, maybe that's
(36:25):
coming back again.
But I just feel like you knowI'm never going to go through
what Dick Gregory went through,performing at the Playboy Club
in front of a group of whitepeople.
For the first time a blackcomic had done that in this
country that we know of.
I'm not going to go throughthat situation.
So you know, as I talked about Ithink I talked about that night
at the Kennedy Center, wheneverI start to get caught up in my
own like what if I say the wrongthing, or why is this so hard?
(36:47):
Suddenly the ghost of HarryTubman shows up and goes what's
hard?
Can you explain to me what'shard that you're doing?
You're afraid to talk.
Oh, okay, so let me just beclear.
You're afraid to talk, you'reafraid to share an idea, you're
afraid to try a new thing,you're afraid to direct a
(37:08):
documentary about bill cosby.
Oh, these, what's first of all?
What's a documentary?
You know what I mean.
So I understand that, like, atsome point you got to get out of
your own way and stop thinkingthat every word you say is so
precious that you have to be socareful and scared of it and
understand that, like the the,that true change happens in the
uncomfortable spaces, in thespaces of like I don't know how
(37:31):
this is going to go down.
I don't know how this is goingto work.
Can you imagine being a youngMLK during, when they're talking
about the bus boycott and theysaid I think he should do it.
He's like I just moved here.
He was like nobody even knowshere.
He was like nobody even knowsme.
They're like exactly, and sothe idea being that that's where
(37:52):
true change occurs is in thoseuncomfortable spaces where you
might say the wrong thing, oryou do say the wrong thing and
you build to a better day.
Mick Hunt (37:59):
Amen to that.
Amen to that so much wisdomtoday.
Glenn Singleton, w Kamau Bellman, appreciate both of you.
Final one, glenn when canpeople find you?
Follow you?
What do you have going on?
You want to talk about thegreat society as opposed to make
.
Glenn Singleton (38:15):
America great again, and so that's going to be
down at Austin's the 17th and18th.
I would say, go to our website,wwwcourageousconversationcom
(38:43):
and check the events.
You can follow me on InstagramI'm CourageousDove444, linkedin,
all of those sources.
Facebook, I think, is the sameat this point.
Yeah, I haven't played aroundwith Twitter too much, but I
still am listening on there, soI'm going to cross over the
(39:05):
threads or something.
I don't know, but that's whereI am.
Mick Hunt (39:08):
That's where I am.
There you go, there you go,appreciate it, and I'll make
sure I have all the links in theshow notes and description for
everyone, and we'll send peopleout to Austin Kamau.
What about you?
W. Kamau Bell (39:32):
no-transcript in the country.
It's always about currentevents in the state of america.
Hopefully I can come up withsomething um and then connected
as my comedy tour, who's with Me, where June 17th through the
22nd we'll be at the BerkeleyRep and the proceeds are
actually going to go to localBay Area organizations that lost
NEA funding when Trump cut NEAfunding.
(39:53):
So that's coming up June 17ththrough 22nd and then July 11th
to 12th I'll be in Charlestonand Durham hanging out with Mick
here.
So we'll be there doing mywho's With Me tour and yeah, so
I have other tour day and also Ihave two days coming up in the
26th and 27th of June in Seattleand Portland.
So just w come out bellcom, youcan get everything, or go to
(40:15):
sub stack who's with me or Wcome out bell to find out
everything.
Mick Hunt (40:20):
Gentlemen, both of you made my day.
Both of you inspire me and havebeen a huge inspiration to the,
the person that is before youtoday.
So I just wanted to to tellboth of you I appreciate you um
more than you'll both ever know.
If you ever need me, don't ask.
Consider me there, consider itdone, supporting everything you
(40:42):
do, and, from the bottom of mysoul, thank you for who you both
are.
Thank you Thanks for having me,thanks for having us.
You got it.
And for all the viewers andlisteners, remember your because
is your superpower.
Go unleash it.
Outro (40:55):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.
If today hits you hard, thenimagine what's next.
Be sure to subscribe, rate andshare this with someone who
needs it and, most of all, makea plan and take action, because
the next level is alreadywaiting for you.
Have a question or insight toshare?
Send us an email to hello atmick unpluggedcom.
(41:19):
Until next time, ask yourselfhow you can step up.
we have to do the first work of looking inward
right and we have to ask thatsimple question of you know,
what impact does race have on mylife and what impact does my
race have on my life?
And as I look around mycommunity, how is race playing
out there?
Intro (00:21):
Welcome to Mick Unplugged , the number one podcast for
self-improvement, leadership andrelentless growth.
No fluff, no filters, justhard-hitting truths, unstoppable
strategies and the mindsetshifts that separate the best
from the rest.
Ready to break limits?
Let's go Break limits, let's go.
Mick Hunt (00:48):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another
exciting episode of MickUnplugged, and today I've got a
special moment.
I've got two guests and we'regoing to talk about it all.
One is an Emmy and Peabodywinning storyteller who uses
comedy to confront culture,peabody winning storyteller who
uses comedy to confront culture,and the other is an education
(01:08):
equity architect, redefining howwe talk about race in America.
Together, they're pushing pastcomfort to spark the real change
that we need today.
Please join me in welcoming thebrave, the brilliant, the
uncompromising two guys that Ilook up to the most W Kamau Bell
and Glenn Singleton.
Gentlemen, how are you bothdoing today?
W. Kamau Bell (01:27):
I mean, I know Glenn's used to those kind of
intros but I'm still gettingused to them so I know Glenn is
like that's exactly as it is.
Mick Hunt (01:35):
Glenn actually sent me everything to say about him
ahead of time.
He was like it has to be.
These do not sway from the textExactly.
Read it just like this.
W. Kamau Bell (01:48):
This is not a suggestion, right?
If it?
Mick Hunt (01:49):
doesn't go down this way.
It's not going down at all,yeah bad.
So, glenn, I'm actually goingto start with you.
I, I, I like talking about yourbecause that thing that's
deeper than your, why, right,like simon scenic wrote a book,
start with why, and I thinkeverybody got stuck there.
Right, you start with why, butit's your because that really
keeps you going.
(02:09):
So again, glenn, I'll startwith you.
Man, if I were to say what'syour because today, what's that
purpose, that passion behindwhat you do?
What is that?
Glenn Singleton (02:18):
You know, what is so clear to me is that
everybody who's looked like mehas had this journey before me,
and when I think about you knowcoming all the way across, you
know, the grounds of West Africathrough the Transatlantic slave
(02:38):
trade up through slavery, jimCrow, you know all of these
moments of oppression for peoplelike us when we get to my
generation and we have more thanwe've ever had, and so I just
feel like it can't fall apartwith me.
(03:00):
Wow.
Mick Hunt (03:02):
Wow, I love that.
I love it, love.
I'm taking some notes because Ihave a follow-up question on
something you said.
But come out, man, I'm gonnagive you the floor now.
What is your because?
Why do you continue to do whatyou do?
W. Kamau Bell (03:15):
I mean the uh, the flippant and probably truest
answer is because, uh, me andmy wife have three kids and I
can't just be like good luck.
I feel a responsibility to makesure that the world is as easy
a place to navigate for my threedaughters, my three mixed-race
(03:36):
black daughters, as possible,and I sort of think of it as the
black baton.
Like when my grandparentshanded the black baton to my
parents, it was lighter thanwhen they got it because they
had gotten it from people whohadn't been that disconnected
from enslavement.
And then when my mom passed itto me and my dad passed it to me
, it was much lighter becausethey had gone through the civil
(03:57):
rights movement and everythingthat that entailed there and
pushed the black people forward,black folks forward.
And I got it.
It I'm like it might be heavierthan when I had, when I handed
to my daughters, and so my goalright now is to sort of make
sure that I do everything I canto make sure that when I hand
them the black baton that it'snot heavier than it was when I
got it, which is going to be alot, but it but looks like I got
(04:20):
glenn and you and other peopleworking on that too.
So I mean, I think the otherthing is like I grew up in a
household where you sort of knewyou had two jobs the job to put
food on the table and the jobto make it easier on all the
people who look like you, whocouldn't get what you got.
And there wasn't really achoice there.
No, it was just.
It's what we do.
So this is just.
(04:41):
I think if I was a car mechanic, I'd be an anti-racist car
mechanic.
Mick Hunt (04:52):
I just think this is just a part of the deal.
I love that man, I love thatand I'm going to tie that into
the conversation I wanted tohave with you, glenn, and both
you.
Kamau is this Glenn, you saidwe have more now than we've ever
had.
Right, and I truly believe that.
I also feel to that point,enough of us don't realize that.
Right, because those are thethings that aren't talked about.
(05:14):
Right, and I'm not sayingeveryone and everything, but
we'll talk about Lil Wayne'salbum that just dropped and how
good or great that wasn't right,but we won't talk about Nobody
said it was good, slow down,slow down, slow down.
W. Kamau Bell (05:26):
Nobody said it was good.
Let's not put misinformationout there.
Mick Hunt (05:32):
Okay, continue he said it was good.
Whoever was in the productionbooth said it was good, but
Glenn man.
So how do we spark thoseconversations internally so that
we can have them externally,Because you do a brilliant job
of that, right?
I mean, you're a consultant toFortune 100, to Fortune 50
(05:54):
companies forget 100, rightRight on.
How do you lead thoseconversations internally first,
so that we can have them outside?
Glenn Singleton (06:01):
but we can have them outside.
Well, you know, when I talkabout having so much, oftentimes
we get hung up with the newshiny stuff, right.
So, absolutely, it takes lesstime for me to create the
guidelines for a conversation inthese corporations now because
(06:22):
I've got friendly AI.
Okay, we never had that right,I didn't even have a cell phone
when I was building this work atthe beginning, right.
So this is.
You know, this is three decadesdeep and so, you know, with
those two, there's a whole groupof people who have now
flourished from these moderntechnologies and from, you know,
(06:43):
the hard work that theentertainers, the athletes, the
corporate people have donebefore, and they've got bank to
prove it right.
So, when I think about what'sin the community in terms of
resources right now, and I thinkabout the challenges facing our
community third grade readinglevel in every major city across
(07:06):
the country for black childrenI'm pushing right now on the
multimillionaires and thebillionaires to figure out.
You know what it is that you'redoing with all that extra right
, Because you only can live inone house, you only can drive
one car, and it can be a niceone and it can be a big one, OK,
but after that, that, that,that space that's sitting around
(07:29):
, those those extra materialthings that the ploy of
capitalism have really hurt usthere.
And then the second thing, I'mgoing to the other side of the
prism, and the other side of theprism is what requires our
consciousness.
Because, you know, when I sitand talk with my 80-year-old
mother, I get the pearls right.
She tells me no, don't go thatway.
(07:50):
Don't go that way Becausethey're not going to like it
right.
And so if I'm trying to getfrom A to Z and I know I'm
already running into a roadblock, okay, then why wouldn't I
avoid that if my purpose, aswe've talked about, is to not
fail us right now?
(08:10):
And so when I think of thetrajectory from, you know, that
elder and ancestral wisdom, okay, all the way up to the modern
technology and the material,we've got a buttload of stuff
that we can use right now to getthis thing moving in a way that
those elders and ancestorswould be proud of us.
Mick Hunt (08:32):
Oh, man, I love that and I'm right there with you.
So, kamau, for you.
You talked about that baton,right, and how heavy it is right
.
And, just like you, I havethree mixed race Black kids,
right.
Black children they don't liketo be called kids anymore, so
Black children, how do you havethat conversation about the
(08:53):
baton internally with yourchildren?
W. Kamau Bell (08:58):
Let's see, my seven-year-old hates the
president and we'll say it outloud and while and I'm in and
you know, and while we may, wecan have a grownup discussion
about hate.
I think it's it's very savvy ofher to understand that this
person is not on my side, youknow.
And so therefore, I put thatperson into the hate camp along
(09:18):
with, like you know, lima beans,whatever you want to say.
So for me, the idea that myseven-year-old is aware of the
state of the world, and awareand even in a sort of a
seven-year-old way, is reallyimportant to me because it means
that, like, if you cause somepeople grow up not being aware
of the state of the world, andthen, when they're full grown
adults, you've had conversationswith them and they're like so
they say something like well,you know how many senators are
(09:40):
there, and you're like, oh no,which?
And it's fine and I will tellyou and we can have a
conversation.
But I think, the more that inmy house I grew up as an only
child, I heard my mom havingevery conversation, and so with
my kids they seem they'rehearing me have a lot of
conversations.
They're also seeing my work.
They're also seeing how peopletalk to me in the street, so
(10:01):
they're aware that, like datadoes things where he has to talk
to people about the state ofthis country regularly and
they've heard me speak enough toknow which sides we're on and
that we and they, that we wantto be on the side of the people,
and the people does.
It's not just people who looklike us and we live in oakland
so they can see those people.
And so then you have, like my,uh, my 14 year old, who just
(10:22):
graduated from eighth grade, who, as part of her graduation
celebration, her advisor saidand Sammy Bell, who, thanks to
her and the administrator whotalked to her, now every kid in
this school knows the words tolift every voice and sing,
because my daughter sang it atevery school function.
(10:43):
She was like at every school andthere was a black woman who
works in school who asked her toand sammy did it and I said,
sam, you got to learn the words,you got like we, you know, like
you can't fump her through anyof it, we're probably not going
to do the second verse, butlearned it anyway.
And so that's a kid who is like,just through the power of her
voice because she has a goodvoice, is engaging a little bit
of activism by teaching somewhite kids in her school and
(11:06):
some non-black kids about thewords of the different voices
and saying and so for me there'smore than one way to do this,
but I think it's important thatmy kids are aware of what's
going on in the world, and my10-year-old, who's pretty shy
like I was when I was her age, Igo look, you're never going to
get in trouble with me if you'redefending yourself or somebody
else who needs to be defended,you think needs to be defended,
(11:28):
and that's a very basic thing.
But I think it's cool.
You might hear the teacher saidI can do this and that and I go
.
Whatever the teacher says, youcome home to me and we'll take
care of it.
And so for me, creating a senseof like justice is not always
in the hands of authority.
Justice is sometimes a thingyou see, that authority will
tell you not to see, and so weare engaged in those
(11:48):
conversations regularly in ourhousehold, and we also celebrate
Kwanzaa, which is the finalpiece of raising a Black family.
Mick Hunt (11:59):
Man, that is deep.
That is deep.
But you're right, man,everything, again, I've been a
big believer.
I was raised that you can'thave outside conversations if
you don't have them inside first.
Right, and so my grandparentsinstilled that in me, my parents
instilled that in me, andthat's what I do with my
children as well, too is we gotto talk about it, because one,
if you don't know your truth, ifyou don't, if you can't have
(12:21):
your own voice in here, you'llnever have it out there.
And so you know and I know,glenn, that's something that
you're passionate about as welltoo that's a pillar that you
have, man, and I want to applaudyou and talk a little bit about
Beyond Diversity and all thegood things that's going on
there.
Talk to the viewers andlisteners a little bit about
that, because to me, beyondDiversity isn't just a
(12:43):
conversation, man, it's.
You know, in the 60s or 70s wewould call it a movement, right,
like, like.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
Glenn Singleton (12:51):
Right.
Well, you hit on the firstpillar right of beyond.
Diversity is a trainingframework that I wrote over 30
years ago.
So we're celebrating the markerof 30 years at LBJ Library next
week, right, and I think it'sfitting that that's where we're
going, because before we eventhink about the great society
(13:16):
and the civil rights movementand, you know, gaining insights
from that past, we have to dothe first work of looking inward
right and we have to ask thatsimple question of you know,
what impact does race have on mylife and what impact does my
race have on my life?
(13:37):
And as I look around mycommunity, how is race playing
out there?
So that when I come talk to youand Kamal I'm, I'm already at
that place of racialintrospection and my
consciousness is is moving mebeyond the first trappings of
defensiveness and fear and allof those things that we've been
(14:00):
given about this topic to whoa.
There's some power here.
Been given about this topic towhoa.
There's some power here, right.
And so 30 years ago, you know, Iwas looking at all of these
disparities in education.
I have worked in corporate andadvertising, and so I'm seeing
that we are just not reflectedin the goodies of society at the
(14:22):
same proportion that we live inthis society.
And so for me, the equitablefuture, the mark of racial
equity, is when we start to seeourselves proportionately
represented in all the goodstuff.
Right, all the good stuff.
And so if you can walk aroundsociety and say, hey, that's
(14:43):
good, right To be on a board,hey, that's good to be CEO, hey,
that's good to be at the top ofthe class when I graduate, or
to go off to the movement ofsociety, to that place of the
elusive, yet tangible sometimes,equality.
Mick Hunt (15:15):
Man.
So I'm going to tell you thisyou don't know this, glenn man,
I'm going to try not to getemotional.
I don't get emotional, but I'mgoing to hold it in.
Man.
So you know, been a huge fan ofyours for a long time, before
the internet and all that Like,I knew who you were and I was
one of those kids I can callmyself a kid then that you were
talking to man Like I had to bethe best at everything.
(15:37):
I did right, like my graduatinghigh school.
If I didn't have a scholarship,mike could have gone to college
, but I couldn't have ascholarship.
Mike could have gone to college, but I couldn't have gone to
the college.
I wanted to go to Right and soI genuinely had to be the best
so that I could get either anacademic or athletic scholarship
.
But then, when I got to collegeUniversity of North Carolina,
(15:58):
by the way, go Hills when I gotto college, that same mentality
was there, because I knew that Ihad a purpose to show everybody
that looked like me that we canbe excellent, right, that we
don't have a ceiling and theceilings that we have are the
ones we put on ourselves.
Now, not saying the world isfair, never going to say that
(16:21):
there are things we're going tohave to fight for that other
people don't have to fight for.
But damn it, I'm going to fight, right.
And so, glenn, I wanted to tellyou thank you for for being
that for me when you never knewthat you were a man.
Glenn Singleton (16:34):
Oh, brother, thank you, thank you for that
and those skills that all threeof us have developed.
You know, and, and Kamala and Icarry this, carry this special
pressure of being the only oneof the next generation, and it's
only this, only child syndrome.
But we learn to be excellentand the world would be a great
(16:55):
place if people had that skillof a desire to be excellent,
right.
So it's nothing wrong with that.
It's just that when you have tobe excellent and you might not
be noticed as that, yeah Right,as you look around and we think
about the conditions which we'reliving in right now the irony
Right Of the challenge to DEIwhere, you know, we have just
(17:21):
installed an entire governmentof people who are not excellent-
that's the nicest way to say it.
W. Kamau Bell (17:31):
They're an entire government of people who are
not excellent.
Glenn Singleton (17:35):
That is not excellent right, Not excellent
in the way that you need it tobe at Chapel Hill, right, Not
working over in the high schooldistrict right beside you, where
this is a community ofexcellence and a resource
community.
But we couldn't get the blackchildren and the brown children
to the top of the class so thatthey could continue to walk
(17:57):
right on over to that university, right?
And so that's why we cametogether to make sure that your
excellence was marked asexcellent and to make sure that
those who were not feelingexcellent were given the
resources so at least they couldbe that if they put in the
effort.
Mick Hunt (18:17):
Yes, sir, yes sir.
Now, kamau, I get to give yousome praise that you don't know
about man.
In my household we watch a lotof the things that you've
written that you don't knowabout man.
So in my household, you know,we watch a lot of the things
that you've written, that youproduce.
We've seen specials.
I want to talk about who's withme, man, like like seeing the
title of this tour and I knowyou're.
You're going towards the, theback leg of the tour.
(18:39):
I'm a little upset you're notgoing to be in greenville, south
carolina first of all, I we'restill adding dates.
W. Kamau Bell (18:45):
I will be in Durham and Charleston, literally
that's what I was going to say.
Mick Hunt (18:50):
I know you go back to back in Charleston and Durham.
I'm going to have to come seeyou in one of those too, man.
Glenn Singleton (18:57):
Talk to us about the framework.
The community center was killer, by the way.
W. Kamau Bell (19:02):
That was a special night.
Glenn Singleton (19:06):
I can't imagine where you are right now, kamal,
yeah, yeah.
Mick Hunt (19:08):
So.
So talk to us about theframework of this tour, man,
like everything from the name,because the name of the tour is
so compelling, right, and me andmy children talked about it,
but the message that you'retrying to to send the tour Like,
talk to us a little bit aboutthat development.
W. Kamau Bell (19:29):
Well, I mean.
So you know a lot of us whowork in the, the sort of the
showbiz I was going to try tofigure out a nicer way to say it
.
But just in Hollywood had theone, two punch of.
So post George Floyd's murderby Minneapolis, hollywood was
like we need to talk to moreblack creators and we need to
give them a voice and let them.
And so a lot of projects weregreenlit in that moment.
One of the projects that I gotwas a thousand percent me
(19:50):
growing up mixed.
That was about my mixed kidsand also other mixed kids in the
Oakland Bay area, which wasgreat.
But a lot of projects gotgreenlit but never got made
because by the time it was timeto make them, we'd already had
the backlash to the, to all thedei, and suddenly all the dei
people got fired.
I had a lot of means with a lotof black women who were in
charge of dei, of these, some ofthese corporations, who then
(20:11):
weren't there.
Months later you'd send anemail that said does not work
here anymore.
And then I had a deal gothrough.
So, and then the, then thestrike happened, the writers in
the actor strike, and althoughwe won, I I'm in both those
unions.
We won a lot of what we wantedthey.
What they did was we're justgoing to stop employing you,
we're just going to stop.
(20:31):
So we're going to stop makingcontent.
Famously, warner brothers, whoown CNN, where I used to work,
stopped for stopped thepost-production on a on the bat
woman movie in post-production.
So they were already $90million in and it was like a
black Batwoman, which I don'tknow if that's why they stopped
it but didn't help it, I'm sure.
(20:52):
But they were just like we'drather use this as a tax
write-off than release this as afilm, even though the directors
were in the edit bay twoEgyptian directors, I believe.
Again, who knows if this is allconnected we're in the edit bay
editing, finishing the movie,and they're like stop your work,
it's never coming out.
And so there came a point wherethere's people I know in
(21:14):
Hollywood who haven't workedsince the strikes, and that's
when I had this moment and a lotof projects I thought I was
going to do just sort ofdisappeared and I'd stopped
doing stand-up comedy and I hadthis moment of like, wait a
minute.
I was raised by janet cheathambell.
I was raised by walter alfredbell and sometimes people would
(21:34):
ask me what are your parents?
What did your parents do for aliving when you were growing up
and I wanted to go?
They're hustlers, but not inthe way you think, and my and my
mom's dad uh, father smithcheatham was one of those guys
who would walk onto a job siteand just start working.
He's like you don't work here,but wait, you did better than
everybody else.
You work here now.
He was just like I'm going toget a job, and so I chose as an
(21:54):
opportunity to start to reallylike okay, what can I do?
Well, I know I can write.
Where can I take my writing?
So I went to Substack, got ridof, went to Substack and was
able to go.
Okay, now that I can dowhatever I want to do.
What is the goal here?
And the goal is to find outwho's with me.
Like you know what I mean, likeyou know literally, it's that
simple.
Who is who believes 80% of thethings I do, and we can talk
(22:17):
about the other 20%, or who whobelieves very little of what I
believe, but seems like I'mmaking some good points and I
want to at least work throughthis, and so for me, that's
where the.
You know, it's sort of.
I always feel like it's like aflip on Kendrick Lamar's way of
saying it is they're not like us.
My way of saying it is who'swith me?
It's a Kyler Gentler way ofsaying they're not like us.
And so, and I know that for myCNN train and I got a lot of
(22:41):
people who are with me who don'tlook like me, a lot of older
white conservative folks whojust like the way I said stuff
and came to realize some thingsthey never thought about before.
And then, because I've donepodcasting, there's a lot of
younger folks with me, a lot ofblack and brown activists who
have been inspired by my work.
And I'm just trying to I feellike this is just me trying to
build the coalition, as asMartin Luther King Jr did
(23:02):
towards the end of his life thathe, I guess I was going to say
he didn't know, he knew whenit's like.
It's more than about black andwhite.
It's about race, it's aboutclass, it's about the United
States affecting the entireworld.
And so for me then it becametime to like I got back into
stand-up and I very quickly waslike oh, I'm still asking who's
(23:22):
with me?
This is all connected,especially because I started the
Substack before Trump.
But once Trump was in office itwas like oh, it's still, it's
definitely who's with me now.
Because I think before we canfigure out what we do, we've got
to figure out who's on our side.
Mick Hunt (23:35):
And right now in LA, people are in the streets
standing up to fascism,literally looking around and
going oh these are all thepeople who are with me, and it's
not just Latinos, it's not justpoor folks, it's all sorts of
types of people who are in yourcoalition.
So that's where that comes from.
(23:55):
I love that, and I want to godeeper with both of you on that,
too, because when you havepeople like yourselves and us,
the work that we do can never bealone, right, and so there are
always people that don't looklike us, that maybe don't even
have the same political viewsthat we have, but also know good
(24:17):
versus evil, right, and so talkto us about that, of how you
know.
It's a coalition of people.
It's a coalition of entitiesthat actually help make the
things that we do happen.
Glenn Singleton (24:31):
Well, so so many, I mean if, if, if people
don't want to, you know, strollthe history so far back.
If we, if we just look at youknow this, this first design of
the Great Society neitherKennedy nor LBJ were really
interested in the cause.
Ok, their purpose was somethingcompletely different, and
(24:55):
oftentimes that same purposethat you see pervading those,
those Congress halls of Congressright now they want to get
reelected, they want to, theywant to keep the gig going.
Right, right, reelected, theywant to keep the gig going.
And also, america has thisinteresting part of its culture
that we want to show the worldthat we're great even though
(25:15):
we're not acting great inside.
And so these two forces werehappening, right, and the
Kennedys, and then LBJ, theycame to understand that there is
some goodness in this moralobligation for all folks to feel
real citizenship and dignity.
But they also recognize that itwas in their best interest to
(25:42):
calm the storms.
And that's what I worry abouttoday, mick, because this
particular government is notinterested in harmony and peace
and community in this country.
They're interested in their ownindividual personal gains.
And so I don't know how youtalk to people who are only
(26:04):
interested in themselves.
Right, because there's nothingthat we have here.
So I think our coalition now isreally important to to come
together as people who have abigger interest than just
ourselves.
We're looking for, you know,what's going to happen for our
children.
We're thinking about theelderly, you know, and all of
(26:25):
those things, and as we servethem, as we serve them, we
actually serve ourselves bettertoo, and so that's the message.
When folks come in, you know,and they're sort of directed one
way on immigration and I'mdirected over here on racial
justice, okay, I've got to helpthem to see that when we all win
(26:47):
, we all win.
Right, that's that.
That's the key in here, totallyagree, totally agree.
Mick Hunt (26:54):
Come out your side on that one.
W. Kamau Bell (26:56):
I mean mostly, as you saw, I was dancing while he
was talking.
I was like, yes, yes, yes.
So the part that I reallystarted excited about was you
talk about?
Lbj and Kennedy weren't justborn into wanting to be on the
right side of history.
I mean, let's be clear,especially the Kennedys, they
were a couple generations awayfrom being bootleggers.
A lot of this is like thesepoliticians putting their
(27:19):
fingers in the air and seeingwhich way the wind is blowing.
And right now I'm in the middleof a lot of online back and
forth with people, becausethere's a lot of excitement in
some parts of California aboutGavin Newsom basically standing
up to Trump and putting out somevideos saying, hey, if you want
to treat California this way,we're going to stop paying into
this American system, sincewe're the fourth largest economy
(27:43):
in the world.
If we just stop paying into thesystem, the country falls, the
country collapses and a lot ofpeople got excited and I think
that's great.
But you know, I'm also don'ttalk about it.
Be about it, you know, and andI just and I was sort of seeing
some Californians who I know belike we got to be careful with
Newsom, because he's not alwayson our side.
He's not always clearly on ourside, he's not always.
He just he just started apodcast where he's interviewing
(28:06):
right-wing people.
He also made gay marriage legal.
He also won a universal healthcare, but he didn't want $35
insulin.
There's just a lot.
There's just a lot.
There's just a lot.
He has many pictures of himdismantling homeless encampments
, but looking good looking.
So it gets confusing.
So I've just been here to sayhey guys, let's not get.
(28:34):
Yes, yes, he's saying the rightthing, but let's also not
forget who he is, and the numberof people who are like this is
why the left can't ever win.
This is why democrats can'tever da, da, da.
This is why we're justbasically let him cook,
basically what they're sayinglike let him.
And I and I brought up theexample of like, do you think
lbj signed or pushed the civilrights act of 1964 because he
was excited about it?
No, he pushed it because MartinLuther King Jr wouldn't stop
showing up in his office and hewas like I got a lot of people
outside who are marching thisway.
(28:55):
He was pushed into doing thatand at some point realized I
want to be on the right side ofhistory, whether or not he had a
moral thing or not, that's forhis biographers to talk about.
But from the outside outside,it was clear without mlk it
doesn't happen, it doesn'thappen, and so it's because.
(29:16):
So my feeling is like we youknow we have politicians only
exist to be pushed into theright forms and functions.
Even if you support them, 99 ofthe time there's gonna be one
person timing.
You're like, hey, and look, mymayor is barbara lee.
I don't know when she's been onthe wrong side of history, but
when she is eventually like, Iwill be there to say hey,
barbara, I need you to so.
But I think that, like wereally we, so many of us we're
(29:38):
so scared that we're looking fora hero instead of looking at
ourselves and going what can Ido?
So you want newsome to handleit and hope that he just handles
it and takes care of it so youcan get back to Pilates, and I'm
saying like, hey, maybe you canhave an anti-racism Pilates
session and figure out what thatis.
I'm not telling you not to doyour Pilates instead of just
(29:59):
hoping that Newsom is the herothat we've always wanted when no
politician is.
Mick Hunt (30:06):
Agree.
I talk to people all the timeabout when you understand the
politics of politics, nothingactually surprises you, because
it's one of those things likeI'm going to do this,
everybody's going to be excitedabout it.
But there's these other fourbills that I'm going to push
through with this one big onethat the world sees, but I'm
going to push these others thatthey're not going to realize for
(30:27):
a couple of months, a couple ofyears, and then they're going
to be like oh wait, what wasthis?
Well, you wanted this big shinything over here.
Well, to get this big shinything, I had to pass these other
three or four things that goalong with it.
W. Kamau Bell (30:38):
As my mom used to say or says, the only thing you
can trust less a politician whodoesn't want your vote is a
politician who wants your vote.
It's easier to deal with apolitician who doesn't want your
vote.
You can, you can sort of likecause you kind of know what that
guy's going to do, but thepolitician who wants your vote
might say anything.
Mick Hunt (30:59):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
All right, you guys have beengracious with your time.
I'm going to ask each of youlike one closing question and,
Glenn, I want to go with youbecause you know you pioneered
the courageous conversationsframework and I think you know,
today more than ever and I'm noteven talking about politics
here I think today more thanever, courageous conversations
(31:20):
need to happen, man.
So, like, how does someonestart that dialogue today with
your framework?
Glenn Singleton (31:29):
Right.
So the first thing that thatI'm going to suggest even before
you you go through the Internet, buy a book, you know, take a
seminar on courageousconversation is you just get a
sense of the paramountimportance of racial justice in
this society.
Right, this cannot be whateverybody understands America to
(31:53):
be without racial justice.
You just have to cross throughthat and so establishing that
personal relationship to race inyour life and to this
trajectory of showing up on theside of anti-racism, right, and
that is the on-ramp.
Once you get into that on-rampand you get into these
(32:16):
conversations across the board,you're going to find people who
don't agree with you, and ratherthan a retreat from that,
that's when you know that you'reentering the next level.
Right, because we can all sitaround and talk about people who
pretty much share those, youknow, those experiences and
understandings of race.
But it's when you get to peoplewho don't live the same
(32:39):
experience and their politicscould be on the same side, or
shade of blue, ok, but, butthey're just having a different
experience.
Or shade of blue, okay, butthey're just having a different
experience.
And so we've got to be open toreally having the questions in
that nuance.
And then finally, finally, wegot to get to the place of
understanding that race is asymbol of power, right, it's
(33:01):
metaphorical, right, and so yougotta not see that.
You know we're all the same andyou know all of those things
red, black, yellow, green, whiteyou know all the stories that
you're told.
No, no, no, there is ahierarchy of power, right, and
you've got to understand thisprinciple of whiteness.
You've got to see whitesupremacy and you've got to see
(33:24):
anti-black racism, these twoparts of that continuum, right,
and as you can step into thosethree levels, it's about me,
definitely.
There are multipleunderstandings and experiences
existing and there is thissystem of power race.
That is about a hierarchy thatholds power at white.
When you get that, we're readyto go.
(33:45):
Everything can change, it's notthat?
Mick Hunt (33:49):
hard, Not that hard?
Absolutely.
Come out for you, man One.
Congratulations on CelebrityJeopardy Absolutely.
W. Kamau Bell (34:00):
I jumped up when you won.
For all the smart Negroes whowere bullied.
I'm here for you.
Mick Hunt (34:08):
I know DonorsChoose was happy about that too.
I'm a big supporter of schoolsystems, so I know that was
amazing.
So my question for you, that Iwant you to be able to give
insight to the viewers andlisteners.
So for that person that'slistening or watching right now,
that's afraid to say somethingwrong, right, what's some advice
(34:30):
, what's some courage, somepower you can give that person
or those people today?
W. Kamau Bell (34:37):
I would say if you're afraid to say something
wrong, I would first say youneed to do an audit of your
friend group and see who you'resurrounding yourself with.
That you can't be honest withwho you are, with who you are
sitting near and who you areregularly in conversation with.
So it doesn't mean that I don'tthink I'm going to say
something wrong, but I feel like, if I do, I am surrounded by
(34:59):
people who want to go hey, comeout, come here for a second.
No, and they're going to do itwith love unless I keep doing it
, unless I keep saying it.
You know what I mean.
It's Adrian Brown taught me thedifference between calling in
and calling out.
They're going to call me in andif you haven't figured out a
way to have a friend group thatis also smart enough in
(35:22):
different areas and have enoughdifferent experiences and
backgrounds that you don't feellike you can be lovingly called
in and you don't have people whocan do that, then you need to
look at yourself and go who didI surround myself with?
This goes back to the Lil Waynealbum.
Clearly, lil Wayne is notsurrounded by people who can be
like hey, man, maybe not 19tracks, maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda
(35:43):
is not the right producer foryou.
Whatever, he doesn't have thosepeople around him.
So just so understand, be yourdon't, don't end up in that
situation is what I'm saying.
Like you have to, and then youhave to know that you're going
to say something wrong sometimeIf you're trying and I know this
is a standup comedian If wedon't try to say the wrong thing
(36:04):
, we're never going to say thefunny thing Right Now.
Sometimes the wrong thing is sowrong people write you up in an
article about it.
But I feel like that's just thenature of the business and you
just got to.
As a stand-up comedian, I'mnever going to go through what
Lenny Bruce went through orwhere he got arrested for saying
the wrong thing Although maybeI am.
Now we're going to a differentera of America, maybe that's
(36:25):
coming back again.
But I just feel like you knowI'm never going to go through
what Dick Gregory went through,performing at the Playboy Club
in front of a group of whitepeople.
For the first time a blackcomic had done that in this
country that we know of.
I'm not going to go throughthat situation.
So you know, as I talked about Ithink I talked about that night
at the Kennedy Center, wheneverI start to get caught up in my
own like what if I say the wrongthing, or why is this so hard?
(36:47):
Suddenly the ghost of HarryTubman shows up and goes what's
hard?
Can you explain to me what'shard that you're doing?
You're afraid to talk.
Oh, okay, so let me just beclear.
You're afraid to talk, you'reafraid to share an idea, you're
afraid to try a new thing,you're afraid to direct a
(37:08):
documentary about bill cosby.
Oh, these, what's first of all?
What's a documentary?
You know what I mean.
So I understand that, like, atsome point you got to get out of
your own way and stop thinkingthat every word you say is so
precious that you have to be socareful and scared of it and
understand that, like the the,that true change happens in the
uncomfortable spaces, in thespaces of like I don't know how
(37:31):
this is going to go down.
I don't know how this is goingto work.
Can you imagine being a youngMLK during, when they're talking
about the bus boycott and theysaid I think he should do it.
He's like I just moved here.
He was like nobody even knowshere.
He was like nobody even knowsme.
They're like exactly, and sothe idea being that that's where
(37:52):
true change occurs is in thoseuncomfortable spaces where you
might say the wrong thing, oryou do say the wrong thing and
you build to a better day.
Mick Hunt (37:59):
Amen to that.
Amen to that so much wisdomtoday.
Glenn Singleton, w Kamau Bellman, appreciate both of you.
Final one, glenn when canpeople find you?
Follow you?
What do you have going on?
You want to talk about thegreat society as opposed to make
.
Glenn Singleton (38:15):
America great again, and so that's going to be
down at Austin's the 17th and18th.
I would say, go to our website,wwwcourageousconversationcom
(38:43):
and check the events.
You can follow me on InstagramI'm CourageousDove444, linkedin,
all of those sources.
Facebook, I think, is the sameat this point.
Yeah, I haven't played aroundwith Twitter too much, but I
still am listening on there, soI'm going to cross over the
(39:05):
threads or something.
I don't know, but that's whereI am.
Mick Hunt (39:08):
That's where I am.
There you go, there you go,appreciate it, and I'll make
sure I have all the links in theshow notes and description for
everyone, and we'll send peopleout to Austin Kamau.
What about you?
W. Kamau Bell (39:32):
no-transcript in the country.
It's always about currentevents in the state of america.
Hopefully I can come up withsomething um and then connected
as my comedy tour, who's with Me, where June 17th through the
22nd we'll be at the BerkeleyRep and the proceeds are
actually going to go to localBay Area organizations that lost
NEA funding when Trump cut NEAfunding.
(39:53):
So that's coming up June 17ththrough 22nd and then July 11th
to 12th I'll be in Charlestonand Durham hanging out with Mick
here.
So we'll be there doing mywho's With Me tour and yeah, so
I have other tour day and also Ihave two days coming up in the
26th and 27th of June in Seattleand Portland.
So just w come out bellcom, youcan get everything, or go to
(40:15):
sub stack who's with me or Wcome out bell to find out
everything.
Mick Hunt (40:20):
Gentlemen, both of you made my day.
Both of you inspire me and havebeen a huge inspiration to the,
the person that is before youtoday.
So I just wanted to to tellboth of you I appreciate you um
more than you'll both ever know.
If you ever need me, don't ask.
Consider me there, consider itdone, supporting everything you
(40:42):
do, and, from the bottom of mysoul, thank you for who you both
are.
Thank you Thanks for having me,thanks for having us.
You got it.
And for all the viewers andlisteners, remember your because
is your superpower.
Go unleash it.
Outro (40:55):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.
If today hits you hard, thenimagine what's next.
Be sure to subscribe, rate andshare this with someone who
needs it and, most of all, makea plan and take action, because
the next level is alreadywaiting for you.
Have a question or insight toshare?
Send us an email to hello atmick unpluggedcom.
(41:19):
Until next time, ask yourselfhow you can step up.
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