MikeyPod 351 | Musician Christopher Willits

Christopher Willits makes his third visit to the podcast today and I could not be more thrilled to share this with you. We talk about his latest album, Gravity, the concept of gravity, creativity, mortality, process, and the beauty in allowing things to be exactly what they are. This is another brilliant connection with a …

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast,
episode 351 for October 6th, 2022.
Today's guest is ChristopherWillits, who by the way,
is making his thirdappearance on the podcast, um,
and will be talking abouthis latest album, Gravity,
which either I've not been payingattention or this is a bit more of a,
um, personal work for him. Everytime I talk to Christopher,

(00:24):
we get into these really cool,
deep conversations about processand being humans. And ah,
it's a really great conversation. Um,
and he's also a hugeinspirational force in my work,
which I sort of mentioned at thebeginning of this interview. Um,
I'm so happy to share this interviewwith you. You're gonna love it. .
I'm your host, by the way, MichaelHerron. I'm a composer, pianist,

(00:45):
electronic musician, storyteller,and activist based in New York City.
On this podcast,
I have conversations with fellow creatorswho use their creativity to change the
world. I've been sending this podcastto your ears for over 17 years.
If you like what you hear,
subscribe using the colorful buttons andthe sidebar and [e-mail].
Or just search Mikey Podd inyour favorite podcast directory.

(01:06):
If you'd like to know more about me,stop by my [e-mail].
Hit me up on social, I gottatake that out. ,
I usually say hit me up on social mediaeverywhere as Michael at Michael Herron,
but on my social media's turned off.
So email [e-mail] or you
can join us in the Discord. Uh, I'll puta link there. There's a Discord server.

(01:30):
Uh, there are a few of us very activein there, and I would love for more, uh,
podcast listeners to come by. So, uh,check the show notes and you could just,
uh, click a little thing and go toDiscord, which is like a gigantic,
I don't even still know howto describe Discord, but it's,
it feels like a very safe place,. So join us there. Uh, hello.
Welcome to the show. Yeah,so I cut off my social media.

(01:53):
I have mentioned that on the showalready, and it's really great.
It's like, um, I wasspending a lot of energy.
I've talked about this before, but it'sbeen nice to like, take that sort of,
and every time I talk about it,
I wanna make sure I'm being clear thatit's not just social media that was the

(02:14):
problem. It was the way I wasengaging with social media, and, um,
I was really using it as a,
as a distraction tool anda procrastination tool, um,
but also as a outlet for my frustration
about things that are going on inthe world that I didn't like my own.
So I was arguing a lot with peoplewho really were just wanting to argue.

(02:38):
Um, and I'm really happyto not be doing that.
And it's been really cool tolike, start to kind of backtrack.
And I've like signed up for thisnews reader. I used to use News Blur,
and I've like signed, like,it's, I'm just being more, um,
uh, mindful about how I'm consumingand what I'm connecting with.

(03:00):
Um, when before, like, you know,
like Facebook felt likethis big flood of, you know,
I'd be follow following all thesethings I wanted to stay on top of.
And then it just, it's somuch, it was too hard to,
to really connect with any of it.So it's been really cool to like,
be very mindful aboutconnecting with things. And, um,

(03:21):
kind of,
it's been a really cool period ofcleaning up the back end of my website
of re just,
I'm cleaning house in like mydigital world organizing files.
I feel like I'm clearing theway for some new creation,
which I'm very excitedabout. It's been a long time.
And one of the things that I reallythought about too was that I used to be a

(03:42):
lot more personal on the podcast,and I sort of missed that. Uh,
one of the things that I've been doinghas been assembling this huge playlist of
all the music I've ever playedon the podcast. And, um,
so it's enabled me to sort of lookmore closely at the, at the posts, uh,
on Mikey Podd and whatI used to talk about.

(04:03):
And the engagement used tobe a lot different. So, uh,
I think right now I'm kind ofdoing that now, aren't I? Um,
and one of the things that wasreally interesting was Archer Radio.
I don't know if you've listened to thispodcast. It's really great. Um, I've,
I've kind of have been goingback and listening to podcasts.
I used to listen to that. Istopped over the, over a while.

(04:23):
So Archer and I have been talking inhis comments about commenting ,
which is a lost art, um, becausesocial media, that darn social media.
So, uh, anyway, check out ArcherRadio. I think it's archer radio.com,
but you could just search in yourpodcast, uh, thing. And, uh, ,
that's the technical term. And, uh,
just to subscribe and find his podcastthere. It's very, uh, it's very journaly,

(04:47):
but the more I'm looklistening to podcasts,
I really appreciate this kind ofpodcasting when I don't really,
I mean, there are some podcasts,Oh, blah, blah, blah. Um,
but I really do appreciate thattype of thing. And High Archer,
if you're listening, podcasting2.0 is super interesting to me,
and I still don't know how to talkabout it. But check out,

(05:08):
like there's some a apps that featurethese bon these, uh, new features.
Um, and one of them is being able to, uh,
pay, like as a listener, I don'teven, I can't even describe it,
but it's in Bitcoin, which I knowlike causes people to glaze over.
But check out the Fountain app,which I've been doing. And, um,

(05:29):
you can actually send Boosts toa podcast you're listening to.
And that app pays you for listening topodcasts like a, uh, what's it called?
A Satoshi, which is a fragment of aBitcoin. But it's really interesting,
It's interesting hearing thisconversation about that stuff. Uh,
and I think it's important to,um, to, uh, support this movement.
I wanna get one of the guysfrom Podcast Index on the show,

(05:52):
but I can't figure out how to reachthem because I'm not on social media
anymore. .
So the last thing I wanna talkabout is the NYC Podcaster Expo,
which is a, uh, a little,it's like a mini convention.
Yes. The second annual mini convention.I missed the first Shame on me. Uh,
it's this Sunday. Um, I'll put a linkwith more information about that.

(06:12):
I'll be speaking with my friend Sebastian,about fading away from Pod Fade. Um,
and I hope you can make it ifyou do come by and say hello.
So we're gonna listen to a trackfrom Christopher Willett's new album,
but I want to first make sure I thankmy subscribers on Patreon for powering
this podcast. These are people whosubscribe for $5 or more a month,
Think it special perks,

(06:33):
like tons of free downloads of mymusic and zines and bonus podcasts.
They're close to 80 ofthose bonus podcasts on the
Patreon, which you will have immediateaccess to when you subscribe,
including this week's bonus episode,
which features an extended conversationwith today's guest, Christopher Willits,
which you're gonna be clamoring forbecause this conversation is so good.

(06:54):
You're gonna be sad that it's over andit'll be okay cuz you could just go to
Patreon and download, uh,that extra bonus episode.
So before we get to that interview,
I would like for you to listen to a newtrack from Christopher's album, Gravity.
This track is called Crescent,and one of the things he suggests,
and if you're in a placewhere you could do this

(07:18):
laying down and justlistening to this music, um,
maybe that's more of asuggestion for the whole album.
But if you're in a placeyou could do it. You,
maybe you could at least close your eyes,maybe you're sitting on the train. Um,
if you're driving, don'tclose your eyes. Um,
but think of a different way to reallyengage with this, with this music.
This is Crescent.

(13:28):
That was Crescent from ChristopherWillett's brand new album,
Gravity. And Christopher here joinedme for the third time on the podcast.
Welcome.
Thanks for having me again. It'sbeen three times. That is amazing.
Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. ,
we were just talking before westarted recording about, uh,
it's been a long time.
I'm gonna have to hesitate or like resistgoing into a whole thing about, um,

(13:53):
well, whatever I talk to, I guessI'm not gonna resist doing that.
I think about like,
a lot of just meeting you and having youon the podcast sort of introduced me to
Ableton live through your, uh,what you talking about Wills.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah. So, and it completely changedeverything that I do. Uh, so ,
I'm excited about that, andthank you for that influence.
Oh my gosh, that's, yeah. Well,

(14:15):
thanks Ableton for theincredible tools as well.
Before we get too far away from it,
we should talk about the trackthat we just heard, Crescent.
Yeah. There's a lot,
like this whole album weaves through allthese different emotions I was feeling
for the last two years. Andit's really, I think of a,
as one piece and each ofthe pieces, or, you know,

(14:35):
each of the tracks are, are part of this whole,
and Crescent leads itoff with this feeling
that, uh, kind of goesthrough much of the whole,
the whole album. Um,
it's this simultaneous feeling of like

(14:56):
inspiration, but also some sorrowin there. Mm-hmm. .
But ultimately it ends up ininspiration. Uh, it always,
it always does in, in somemysterious way because, you know,
whatever grief or sorrow you'reexperiencing, you start to, you know,
as you listen to that and reallyunderstand where that's coming from,

(15:17):
um, you learn and then thatbrings joy and inspiration.
So that kind of, that thread of, of, um,
you know, feeling is going throughthe whole album. And Crescent for me,
really kinda leaves it off. It. Um,it's really, I mean, this whole,
this whole album is about slowingdown and letting things fall

(15:39):
into place. Just gravityas a surface, you know,
gravity as a, as a, asthis flow that, you know,
things are just settling andcoming into where they need to be.
And the, the, the title of presentactually came from an experience.
It was like really a microcosm of that.I was, uh, working on this music and

(16:05):
a lot of, a lot of things were happeningwith my mother's health at the time.
It was really ramping up. Uh, shewas diagnosed with Alzheimer's, uh,
a few different, uh, or a few years ago.
She actually had a coupledifferent diagnoses where, um,
it was dementia and thenit was like Alzheimer's.
And I just kept getting worse andworse. And Crescent really emerged like,

(16:25):
um, during the peak ofrealizing that, you know,
she needed 24 7 care. Um,she was falling down a lot.
She like almost let the house onfire at one point. Oh wow. And, um,
coming to that realization washeavy. You like really heavy.
Um, you know, this person isjust such a creative force.

(16:46):
My mom is just absolutely incredible.
And then all of a sudden she can'tdo every everyday things that, uh,
she just took for granted. AndI remember going outside, I was,
I was working on the musicand went outside and just the most beautiful crescent
moon was in the sky and just feltlike this reminder that, you know,
despite things beingchallenging, you know,

(17:06):
this is like right in the height of thepandemic too. Um, this crescent moon.
And just like that bigpicture perspective of our
position on the cosmos and solar systemand everything just really shined a
light that, you know,this is challenging now,
but we're gonna get through it and Ican just let things fall into place.

(17:27):
So that's really what Crescent isabout. So I think that was really the,
maybe the second track. It'sinteresting when you're making an album,
it kind of like, there's amomentum that starts to build. Um,
and that was the second track thatreally kind of validated this,
this direction for the wholealbum. The first one, uh,

(17:49):
being the track spinning,which is track seven.
It's funny to hear about the, the, uh,
sequence of the tracks beingcreated for some reason,
even though I know this isn't truefor most people, I'm like, Oh yeah,
I guess you didn't write them in theexact order that they're appearing on the
album.
Yeah, no, definitely not. Like spinningwas the first track for a long time.

(18:11):
And then, um, and then Creston justwas like, Nope. Need to be there.
It's interesting. It's, uh, it's, youcan't really, for me, I can't really like,
analyze what's happening. It's verymysterious process. It just becomes very,
very clear to me on a,a very intuitive level,
more like heart based level, less of amind kind of thinking kind of strategy.

(18:33):
Um, the music starts to just say,Hey, I, I want to go this direction,
or I wanna be in thissequence. Um, and it's,
it's my job to, to tend to that flow.
There's so many things aswe're talking to, I'm like, oh,
like so many potential topics like to,
or questions from a lot of this.I guess the first one that,

(18:55):
that I was thinking when you weretalking about Crescent and, you know,
the experience of seeing thatmoon and the idea of gravity,
Like when I first think of gravity,I think of like a pole, right?
Like something that's grabbingus and and jerking us down to the
earth. But it's interestingthat your take about it,

(19:15):
the way you described it, wasmore about kind of settling.
And I feel like I'm kind of feelingthat energy from your work a lot.
And also from whatyou're saying now of, um,
I don't know if acceptance is theright word, but just sort of this Yeah.
Kind of awareness of like,this is, this is everything.
Some of it feels bad or good,but it is the thing that it is.

(19:38):
Yeah. Gravity is, um,
it's, it's really this surface.It's very graceful and, and,
and it's, it's, it's not even, um,
this force, you know, we, wekind of are old school, um,
way of thinking about gravityis, it's like, yeah, what,

(20:00):
what goes up must comedown type thing. But, um,
relativity has shown us that, youknow, gravity is a surface. It's, uh,
it's bending time space, uh,light, you know, energy itself.
And the more matter something has,
the more gravitational pull it has,the more it's able to bend the surface.

(20:22):
And, um, it's, it's, uh,on a metaphorical level,
it's this, you know, when you'rekind of surfing those wave that,
that mass of, uh,attraction, that mass of,
um, modulation in a sense, you know,
you, you're letting go. You're,

(20:43):
you're just trusting thatthis process is happening.
You're letting things come to be.
So this is a big part of the inspirationof a lot of the imagery that came with
the album as well.
All the pictures came from WhiteSands National Park in, uh,
in New Mexico. And I visited there whenI was actually going back, See my mom.
This is like, when all the fightswere shut down. So I was like,

(21:05):
I'm just gonna drive.I'm gonna drive my, uh,
my Volkswagen bus out thereand just make it happen.
And on the way I stopped in, um,on the way and on the way back, um,
stopped in White Sands andhad some journeys out there,
and the patterns of the sand and the waythat they're falling in the place and
everything I was, I was always kindof, um, fascinated by this place.

(21:27):
And even like, dreams about it and stuff,I had never actually visited there.
And being there was actually, um,
even more vivid andamazing than the dreams.
And it was, uh,
around the time when I started playingwith the idea of Gravity being the,
the title of the album. Andthis place just epitomizes like,
the way that things havejust fall into place,

(21:48):
and all these different patternshave emerged from, you know,
the macro of the, uh,the waves of the dunes,
but also on this micro level whereyou're seeing actually this fr
of the larger macro waves of thedunes. And this almost like a pattern,
almost like a language really. It lookslike a language that's on the actual,

(22:11):
uh, dunes themselves. Um,
so I decided just to honein on, uh, those curves.
Cause I really saw a reflection in thosecurves and the way that the music was
flowing and, uh, this very slow low,
um, wavelike cord melody motion. And,

(22:33):
um, for me, yeah, just the wordgravity, it, it made so much sense.
Um, makes so much sense too. Theprocess I was going through. I mean,
it was heavy . Yeah. Ithad a lot of weight to it. And,
but what I was learning is justa deeper flow into letting go

(22:53):
and, and,
and really listening toeverything that was going on.
And I think the musicreally allowed me, uh,
to do that to a greater capacity as well.
It was just incredibly,
the relaxing and inspiring
to sit down and know that this,

(23:15):
this music was really like arepresentation of the feelings
that, um, very complex feelings, um,
that I was experiencing. You know?
So there was this beautiful feedback loopthat was happening to what I'm feeling
and what I'm creating, and then I'mlistening to the things I'm creating,
and that's also influencingwhat I'm feeling.
And then the music just takeson this life of its own.

(23:38):
Hmm. Thinking about, uh, becoming so, uh,
acquainted with our parents' mortality.
Mm-hmm.
is, uh, it, it'skind of conversation with you.
It's always like this forme that I'm like, Whoa,
I'm thinking about a lot of things froma new perspective and just that idea of
mortality and even death beingpart of what makes everything else

(24:02):
possible that we experience.
Totally. And, and that's whatwas so weird about this too,
Like this meaning, um,specifically, um, you know,
we're talking about our parents mortalityand I was talking about my mother, um,
and how she has Alzheimer's. And uh, just,
it's an absolutely surreal experiencebecause at some points you're actually

(24:24):
wondering, you know,
would this be easier ifshe could just, you know,
pass or mm-hmm. .And it's such a,
that's such a confusing thought to have,
but that's truly how painfuland challenging it is
at times. Cause uh, you know, it's,

(24:46):
it's a complete shift in theway the brain is working and
loss of words and, and, you know, itaffects everybody in different ways.
So no one can really tell you like, Okay,
well this is gonna happen next and thenyou can expect this . You know,
it's a, yeah. It's a completelynon-linear journey. Um,

(25:07):
so I'm just really grateful for mywhole family, my sister, my dad, um,
our, our extended family.I mean, just incredible,
incredible people that all just steppedup and supported each other. And,
you know, each step of the waywe're kinda like, Hey, ,
we're improvising thisexperience together,
and what do we do that'sbest for mom? Um, yeah.

(25:28):
And I think we got through it in a, in areally beautiful way, but I, it is, uh,
yeah, , you know, my dad wassaying this the other day, you know,
it's like none of us gets outtahere alive, you know? And, um, I,
I like his kind of courageousembrace of, of mortality.
Um, and I kinda wonder, like witheverything my mom's going through,

(25:51):
I'm wondering like, what capacity doesshe have to reflect on that right now?
Cause I know that there's beena lot of fear too, you know,
the change of her livingsituation and, um,
just confusion. You know, like you, it's,
it's when your brain is like sending, um,

(26:11):
signals in, in thesedifferent places or there's,
there's parts that are kind ofjammed up and, and it's not,
it's not sending those,uh, al impulses, uh,
the same way it always has.
It's like there's a lot ofconfusion that's going on. Um,
but I, I think just the simple,
the simple act of reflecting onmortality is, um, incredibly,

(26:36):
incredibly powerful cuz it helps us toreally embrace the present moment on a
deeper level.
Yeah. The, the idea of, um,
I'm going back to you something thatyou described your process of creating
music as, uh, this is my interpretationof it, of almost like, uh,
kind of getting, getting, uh,

(26:58):
your direction from themusic as it's emerging.
Um, Absolutely.
How was it to discover, this islike a big question, I think,
How was it to discover that process?
Like what that's, that feels likea potentially really big question.
Well, I think that, I think from ayoung age, I understood that, um,

(27:21):
they create a processgoes where it needs to go.
There is this mysterious ebb and flow, um,
that's occurring.
And what I can do as acreator to show up with
the vibe, with the intention,with like, why am I making this?
It could be a big idea that's relatedto other people could be something just

(27:45):
like, Hey, I just wanna play or explorethis thing, or whatever it is. Um,
but grounding thatinitial kind of like, um,
arrow of the compass, so to speak, um,
is kind of all we cando . Like, um,

(28:06):
whenever, I mean, some people worka little bit differently maybe,
but I just have never foundthat the creative process, um,
is going to bend to your,
uh, your sense of control oryour ego, uh, to an effect.
It's, it is life force itself,

(28:28):
and it's much bigger than you.
And I've always found that the,
the most kind of resonant music, themusic that really sounds the best to me,
means the most to me, is always music.
That I've set the intention and thegeneral direction where it's going,
and then that music starts to liveand grow. And then tell me, um,

(28:49):
which way it wants to be.
Guided.
One of the things I run into with mycreative process is exactly what you said
of getting into more, um,
more about what I want theproduct to be than letting,
letting it become what it's going to be.
And I think that's kindof an ego place for me.

(29:09):
Mm-hmm. .
Yeah.
It's, it's a,
it's a beautiful paradox becausewhen you actually surrender into the,
into the flow,
it ends up in a place that'ssurprising and better than you
even imagined. That's what happenswith me. Mm-hmm. . Um,
it's, uh, it's really fascinating,but I really like this,

(29:33):
this, um, this thread of like thecreative process and life force,
you know, I mean,everything is connected. Um,
and to me it's, it's, uh, the, you know,
I think an image that kind of likeshow the lines of the curves of
this is like, uh, it's very, like,

(29:54):
you think of like life force and plantsand the way the plants grow mm-hmm.
and the waythat, like a garden or, uh,
nurtures or intervenesin that process, Um,
I feel very much like a gardener andthis creative process is flowing,
um, and I'm tending toit. And yeah, I mean, I,
I know how I want my garden to look,and I wanna push and pull it this way,

(30:17):
that way, but I ultimately,as this gardener,
I can't dictate the way that, um,
this moringga tree is going tolook or the way my, um,
kale shows up and, and the curvesand the, and the lines and the veins.
You know, it's gonna look similarto what you think it's gonna be,
but it's gonna have its ownlife, you know? So I think,

(30:41):
uh, the most powerful musicrespects that in a lot of ways. Um,
you know, it's like, it's, it's always,there's always a level of improvisation,
even if you're, you know,writing stuff down and,
and scoring things and whatnot.And in this case, you know,
like working for hours and hours, um,
producing this immersive,

(31:03):
this immersive sound that's movingin three dimensions around people.
Um, it's, uh,
it's ultimately this,this dance of,
of all of this, all of thesevibrations coming into one and, um,
and creating this, thisspace ultimately to,

(31:26):
it's a space for slowingdown, and it's a space for,
for just letting things fall into place.
What, what's the moment I'm trying todescribe You? Just, there are, it's,
this conversation is like making methink of a lot of different things.
So I have these moments of like,ah, okay. But in a good way.
Awesome. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean,

(31:50):
this is one of ourstruggles as humans, right?
It's like we have the power to control,
but we, we think we can control, right?
But we actually we're justpart of this larger whole,
um, yeah, we need to direct theenergy and that life force in the,
in the way that can bebeneficial to ourselves and, um,

(32:14):
people around us. But, um, wecan't, we can't control it.
That process. Like, think of itas a creative process. Um, well,
I guess our lives are creative processestoo, when you really think about it.
But I think that's totally, you know, the,
the times in my life whenI've kind of just followed
direction rather than,you know, chosen my own,

(32:38):
like, exact destination orsomething that I wanted to happen,
the times I've been able to justsort of let the flow happen mm-hmm.
, it's always paid off.
It's always turned into somethingbetter than I could have thought of.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a lot aboutour vision. I mean, that's kind of,
when I'm talking about thebeginning of what I'm creating,

(32:58):
it's like setting this intentionor this vibe or whatever.
It's envisioning whatthis space looks like,
and that's a combination ofsounds and emotions and imagery,
but it's just this generalvibe and this feeling.
And I'm envisioning that, butI'm not getting into the future.
I'm actually, it's like headlightsof a car, seeing what's coming up,

(33:21):
but I'm not actually in that, you know,
wherever that mountain is that thelight is shining out. I'm actually,
I'm in the car driving in the present moment,
and then my vision's shiningout so I can kind of, you know,
get an idea of what's comingup. But I'm not, like,
I'm not trying to, um,I'm not trying to control

(33:43):
the outcome. I'm envisioning whereI want it to go. So there's like a,
there's a, a light touch and a, anda, a really drastic difference in,
in the flow right there. Um, you know, I,
I teach a lot of classes and I,I've noticed with a lot of, um,
especially youngerstudents that, um, there,

(34:05):
there's kind of this almost judgmentor expectation of themselves that they
are going to create thisthing that may, you know,
it's like, sounds like somethingthey've heard before, perhaps. Um,
and it's really just thisjudgment on themselves. I mean,
you could be inspired by something andbe like, Okay, I wanna emulate, you know,

(34:26):
a certain track or whatever. Um, butthere, there's a sense of control.
It's really, it's,
it's ultimately linked to thiskind of fear of failure or
rejection of others or of themself.And there's just a lot of judgment.
And so they're never actuallygetting into the space where

(34:46):
they can just allow whatthey envision to occur.
They're kind of just in this fearstate of like, Oh, how do I make this,
you know, sound better to be thisway or this way? Um, and it's,
you know, it's not a, it's just amatter of practice, you know, it's, uh,
it's not anything that's like, Okay,we'll do this and do this like a recipe.

(35:06):
It's truly just a,
a matter of practice and listening towhat you wanna do and experimenting and
seeing how that comes out, likethousands and thousands of times.
And then you start to realize that subtle,
that subtle touch and thegrace that comes with really,
um, authentically created music, you know,
music that's coming from yourheart and it's growing out.

(35:30):
It's not something that's likethis preconceived idea of like,
this is where it needs to fit into themarket , you know? Yeah. Yeah.
A's certain genre or certain thingslike this, you know, it's, um,
just, just music, you know, Itdoesn't, it doesn't have to,
it doesn't have to belabeled, uh, this way or that.

(35:51):
That is, uh, there's so much,there's so much loaded or,
or potentially loaded intobeing an artist or just
allowing ourselves to think aboutourselves as artists. And then, you know,
like, there's just somuch, so many levels of
validation that we feel likewe need. I'm speaking for my,

(36:15):
for myself here too. Like, there'sa lot of that that, you know,
and what you were talking about,
about allowing music to bewhat it is going to become
without trying to, youknow, direct it. Well,
it's so much of what we havealready been saying, um, but it's,
I'm just kind of being aware,
like you were talking about marketingand genre and all of those type of things

(36:37):
that also, you know,
become something that we're trying toturn our kale into in the garden, right?
Mm-hmm. whenit's really just gonna be kale.
. Yeah. I mean,it's just, you know,
I I, I just see that, um,within myself that's like,

(36:57):
if I'm, I've fullygiven up over the years,
but like when I was younger, I've,
I think that there was definitelykinda an impulse to be like,
I wanna really control theoutcome of what this thing is,
the outcome in terms of like, whatit is not the outcome of like,
why does it exist and how is it

(37:20):
operating? How is it creating aspace? How is it helping people or,
you know,
anything or augmenting someone'sinspiration or experience just
in general, you know? So yeah. It's, uh,
it's just, it's just somethingover the years. It's like,
just have to completely let go of,

(37:42):
because if I'm trying so hard
to make this certain thingbe what I think it should be,
then I'm not truly showingup in the moment to let it
be what it is and what, um,

(38:02):
what it needs to be. Right. .
Yeah.
Um, you know, it's a very kinda,I mean, it's very comic in a way.
Cause what's what's thepoint of making, you know,
your heart's music ifyou're not truly completing,
um, a new chapter in the journey?
And if you're kind of whatyou were saying of like,

(38:24):
kinda chasing things, it'slike if you're in that mode,
um, you know, like
it's just, uh, there's,there's ways where you can,
you can zoom out andreally think about how,
how your music is functioning, um,

(38:46):
for yourself and with humanity
in general. ,
instead of it being thisthing where it's so driven
by a desire to kind of fit into
a certain thing or forminto a certain image and,

(39:08):
and all these things.Um, just think that, uh,
for me, um,
I'm always striving to makethe most authentic music.
And a lot of times that ends up beingthings that I never really heard
before, um, from myselfor maybe other places too.

(39:32):
Um, and it's,
and it's a discoveryof that vision and that
intention that I plantedlike a seed, you know,
sometimes years ago. But thenafter thousands of touches
and movements through this emergingspace, and all of a sudden,

(39:55):
you know, this experience growsout in a way that I would've never
really, um, imagined inthat exact form. But it's,
it's, it's occupying this,
this space in a way that's oftenbetter than what I was even originally
thinking it would be.
Yeah.

(40:16):
It's really fun .
Yeah, it's.
Really incredible.
It's kind of cool to think about the, the,
the sort of the path ofyour releases and like,
when I first became awareof your music, it, it, it's,
there's still a definite connection,but it's a, it's a big difference in,

(40:36):
in action in.
A way. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
I was reflecting on that recently becausethe 20 year anniversary of Fold Amen.
The tea is coming up here, Ibelieve it's like next month.
And that was released in 2002. That waskind of my first official, you know,
distributed release as, uh,under my, my own name. Yeah.

(40:59):
And yeah, just, it just kindof hit me, It's like, oh wow,
it's been 20 years of puttingthis music out and then kind of
tracing the thread of how the musickeeps changing in different ways. And,
um, yeah,
what you said is interesting cuz itactually was resonating with what I was
doing. I was like, like harmonically,

(41:20):
there's this similar thing thatI'm always wanting to explore
in these like, um, cord melody type work.
Um, it's almost like makingmusic that's just like, uh,
it's like elongated, sloweddown guitar solos, ,

(41:41):
or something like this. Like it's,yeah, it's like, it's, uh, the,
the chords and the melodies kind ofall go together, but then I've been,
you know, playing with different,
all these different waysto do it over the years,
and there's definitely been a number oftwists and turns and so, so grateful,
um, for all the exploration.And I remember thinking when I was younger, like,

(42:04):
um, I kinda made a promise to myself.I was like, I'm never, you know,
I'm always gonna be listeningto where the music wants to go,
which is gonna be, you know,
extricable linked to my own personal, um,
evolution and journey, um,and this whole cosmos here.
And so, um, to really dothe music, um, and this,

(42:28):
and myself and the process and thepeople around me, um, to do them,
do them good. It's likeI have to surrender my
kind of, uh,
expectations of like how thingsshould end up sounding . Um,
and I'm, it's reallyliberating, but it's also, you,

(42:51):
you're kind of like looking intothe abyss a little bit too. Um,
but ultimately I think I've beenreally a much happier artist over these
last 20 years. Um, there's never beenlike an existential crisis. Like,
what am I doing and, you know,
or feeling locked into some type of asound because that's what everyone's
expecting you to do. I'vealways just been like,

(43:12):
I want people to expect thatI'm just gonna, you know,
I want people to expect that they're notgonna expect something in a way. Yeah.
Like even the next albumfrom Gravity, it's, you know,
might be a whole hundred 80degree turn from that. And Sure.
On one side that might be like, you know,
some people would say that's likethis bargaining suicide or something.

(43:34):
And it's like, well, youknow, sorry, that's just,
this is what, if this is the musicthat needs to happen at this time,
then that's gonna happen. Youknow, it's like, I'm not gonna be,
I'm not gonna be, uh, changingthat just because, you know,
people think this needs to happen or,or something else needs to happen,

(43:55):
You know what I mean? Thatthat would be authentic, um,
music in my opinion.
Yeah. This is, they're like, a lotof times in these conversations on,
on the podcast that I, they'relittle moments that I'm like, Oh,
this is why I'm talking tothis person. Like, per my,
my personal like unlocking. And, um,

(44:18):
I think a lot of what kind of,in my creative process lately,
something about the pandemic really kindof made me start thinking like, Well,
I don't know what I'm, I wanna make next.
And it's really interestingto think about, like,
maybe just start making it and see.
What it's, Oh my gosh, yes. I mean,

(44:38):
that's how everythingbegins for me is like,
just play, you know? Yeah. Um,
having a vision of where thingscan go and then just playing.
And then sometimes theintention will just be
to explore, you know? That's fine.That's like enough of a, you know,

(45:01):
direction. Just explore .Yeah. See what, see what feels good,
Try a new technique, try this, try that.
And then something comes up andthen that sparks the vision and
then you're like, Okay,
now I can see these things falling intoplace and you slow down with it. Listen.
And then just work your ass off .And that's the trick too, right?

(45:23):
Because I worked my ass off on this album,
but the whole time I was remindingmyself to have a light touch, you know,
and to constantly, like, ifsomething needs to be changed,
it doesn't matter where I'm in theprocess, I'm gonna do that. And, um,
gratefully over time you learn how youwork and you learn how these, how the,

(45:44):
this mysterious flow of creativity startsto emerge through your body and out
into the music. And, youknow, I can know that, okay,
this is the time of the album that I'mprobably gonna think the whole thing is
just horrible ,and that's okay. You know,
like that's part of the process.And then I'm gonna get through that,
and then there's gonna be another mountainand that's fine too. You know. Um,

(46:06):
there's always that time,like towards the end of, um,
like compos, it's basically whenI'm, I'm starting to like mix.
Mm-hmm. .
And, you know, I've, I've put down all,
you know, um, instruments, so no,I'm not adding guitar anymore,
or bass scent or whatever is, isin there. I'm just like, Okay,

(46:31):
that's done. I'm going to, to mixing.
And there's always gonna bea time where I'm just like,
it's almost like a littlebit of a grieving, um,
cuz you know, it's like you, youmust surrender and, and, uh,
and then it turns quick. You know,it's just like a phase of the moon.
All of a sudden. It'sjust like you listen,

(46:53):
give yourself a little space maybe andlisten again. You're like, Oh my gosh,
this, this is, I was justin my head, you know?
I was just completelycreating this whole reality.
And so now when I start to have littlelike, kind of seeds of those thoughts, I,
I am like, ah, I can laughat it. I'm be like, Wow,
that's something that's so interestingthat like, um, I'm kind of, you know,

(47:17):
experiencing this from like adifferent vantage point. You know,
I can see the ups and downs.
I can kind of almost have like alook ahead to know, okay,
well there's a valley comingup here and it's all good.
And then it's not really avalley, you know, it's, it's just,
it's just part of the, part of the flow.
Yeah. Oh yeah. So like letting all of it,

(47:39):
that's our, that's the takeaway. Let itall, like all the whole process, the.
Music, let it all fall into place.
Yeah. And your response to itand your like inevitable, um,
push and pull with whatyou think of your own work.
It's just part of the experience.
It's so fun. I mean, yeah. Kind oftalking deeper into that a little bit,

(48:01):
it's like finding the balance of
working very hard towards this
objective, you know, likefinishing an album, let's say. Um,
and at the same time, you know,
surrendering to what it is, um, it's,

(48:24):
it's, it's just an incredible, um,
balancing act at times because there are,
there are moments where you've just got to
like, put your seatbelton and just dig into
some, like, the work that maybeisn't as fun , you know? Yeah.

(48:47):
You gotta just, you gotta just, um,chop the wood and carry the water.
And then, but when yourelieve the judgment that, Oh,
this isn't as fun as playing guitar,You know, I'm talking about like,
once you get into mixing stuffor really just the first,
first kind of phasesof mixing for me, I'm,
you gotta kinda like warm up intothe process. Cause I'm like, ah,

(49:10):
I just wanna keep playing guitar. Yeah. And so let it go.
And then all of a sudden it just likeopens up and it's like the, you know,
it's the most fun thingin the world to just, um,
explore like exactly where thesedifferent frequencies need to fall
into place with each other.
And just that tiny little bitof compression and which tool,

(49:32):
or should I use this like analogcompressor on there that has this
very subtle thing, Should I use this otherdigital tool that's doing this thing?
And you start to,
these very microscopic kindof details start to emerge
that are related to thewhole larger flow, um,

(49:53):
of like the core progressionsand, and the different, um,
wavelike motion of this, this coremelody work and stuff like that. So it's,
um, it's, it's really just about beingpresent when you, when you boil it down,
you know, it's like you're,
you're envisioning this experience and

(50:14):
every single moment that youare touching and creating,
uh, this music, you are, youare embodying that experience.
Right? So it's like every, everysingle touch is kind of like,
it all,
like stratifies into this experience that

(50:35):
that happens, uh, you know, in a,
in a linear sense in the future.
But we're actually every momentcreating it through that.
So it's,
it's actually just likevery non-linear kind of
timeless thing.
Cause at the very beginning I'm seeingan envisioning kinda where it's gonna go,

(50:55):
but I'm not controlling it. And then asI get to the end, then I'm also seeing,
you know, or or kind ofreflecting on these are,
these are the inspirations of thevibes and the space that like,
brought this to be. And now it's,
it's showing up for me in a waythat, um, I maybe didn't expect.

(51:16):
Um, but it's, you know, it's,
it's completing this really important, uh,
process or kind of chapter for me.
Uh, it's always so good to talk toyou about this stuff. It's like.
Really, It's cool. Cause yeah,
it seems like our conversations usuallytend to fall on creative process things.
That's really cool. Yeah. I mean, causeyou're a creator man. Yeah. And you,

(51:39):
and you're like, you're,
you're making within so manydifferent materials and things.
So it's like you're, And I thinkthat's, that's part of it too.
You start to understand these differentkind of like, wave lengths of, it's all,
it's all connected for sure. But there'sthese different wave lengths of, um,
you know, for me it's like the,
the music and it's all the componentsof that music and it's like the visuals

(52:04):
and then, um, it's, you know, the,
the writing and stuff.
Cause I do a lot of writing thatgoes around it and it all just,
it informs each other in a differentway and they all have these
different kind of like, nuances to it. Um,
so yeah, I think maybe it's like, cuz you,

(52:25):
you've worked with all thesekind of different materials, um,
and you've been exploring all thesedifferent sounds and ways to kinda present
those to people. Um, this, you know,
that this conversational likecreative process really becomes like
foregrounded cuz you're always exploring.
And it is a really good reinforcementof the exploration part of

(52:48):
all of that.
Mm-hmm. .
Yeah.
Really is, it's all anexploration. That is for sure.
beautiful. I'mlooking at the time and it's,
we need to wrap up this partof our conversation, but I want talk wrap up about,
we're gonna wrap it up, but Iwanna listen to Regrowth. Um,

(53:10):
is there anything you wanna sayabout regrowth before we, uh,
say goodbye and listen to.
The trip? Yeah, yeah. Regrowth.Um, well I just wanna,
I just wanna say, um, you know,
for anyone out there listening,
thank you for listening and I encourageyou to just put some headphones

(53:31):
on and lie down on yourbed and just let this music
take you wherever it needs togo. And just feel it slow down.
Um, let things fall into place. Um, um,
and that's, you know, regrowth again,
each of these tracks isvery much like these,

(53:52):
the same feelings I was talking aboutwith Crescent were emerging and these
different shapes thatactually came about. Uh,
it was the night after we, um,
moved my mother out of the houseshe created for us. And, um,
it was incredibly, uh,
surreal and bizarre andsad and, um, unknown.

(54:18):
And, um, got back fromthat and I was just like,
I was just flattened. I was justlike, like a pancake .
It was just like laying onthe grounds. Like, oh man,
that is the kinda thing where it's likereally hitting like the mortality level.
Um, but on this other kind ofside branch where you're like,

(54:39):
Oh my goodness, like thisis, this is a kind of a,
a torturous situation for my mother,you know, and kind of trying to,
wanting to support her, but it's likekind of feeling like we had failed.
You know,
there's like a lot of kind of guilttype feelings that are coming through it
too. Cause she's like, Why can't wejust take care of really 24 7? But, um,

(55:01):
it's just, it's really hard.
And plus we were very grateful to havethe o like the options to be able to get
her into a memory care place. So, um,
regrowth basically emergedthat evening and after I
was a pancake , I was like, Ineed to make music. And then I just,

(55:22):
I just kept hearing thesechords. I just wanted to this,
uh, very,
very like stripped down and misty, um,
chord melody thing to happen. Andas I started playing the music,
really just expressingwhat I was feeling, um,

(55:45):
I could just feel all this. I, itreally felt like my heart was regrowing.
It was like this whole paradigm shiftwas happening at our family at this time.
And also this shift of um,
you know, like my relationship to my mom.
She took care of me and now I'mtaking care of her , you know,

(56:07):
that mm-hmm. ,
this whole role reversal thing thatwe experience in our lives. Um,
I could just feel thisregrowth happening. So that's,
that's why it's called Regrowth.
Uh, I'm really looking forwardto re-listening to these tracks,
knowing more of the, this background.
Oh, awesome.
Uh, alright. So we shouldlisten to Regrowth, um,

(56:29):
and also say goodbye. Your, uh,
website is christopherwillits.com and, uh, is,
well, I'll put links in the show notesfor this, where to find the album. Uh,
anything else I should,
we should include or say for peopleto track down the album and your work?
I think that's it. .

(56:49):
Perfect.
Just, yeah, I think you canfind it. Yeah, just search,
search my name and searchand it'll come up and, um,
if anyone's in San Franciscocome through Envelope SF and,
uh,
you can listen to it in 32Speaker three Dimensional sound,

(57:11):
but headphones are nice too, so justlie down on your bed and just, uh,
just let the music takeyou where it needs to go.
Oh, love it. And that's on my list.I really want to go to Envelope.
Uh,
maybe that's something we can talk aboutreally briefly in the bonus podcast,
which, uh, patrons can findat patron.com/bylar. Right.

(57:33):
Anyway, enough of that stuff,, I didn't wanna talk too much,
but between your description ofthe song and the song. So, um,
this is regrowth and thank youfor joining me, Christopher.
Thank you. So.

(01:02:47):
And so we come to the end ofanother episode of Mikey Podd.
Thank you so much for listening. Thankyou Chris, for, for being on the show.
Um, always an inspiration and it's,
I don't know if I understated itin the beginning of this interview,
but literally I had not, well,
I had dabbled in electronicmusic very, very slightly.

(01:03:07):
Like in high school Ihad a great synthesizer,
which I wish I still had the rolein Juno 1 0 6, um, back in the day.
Oh, I still wish I had that keyboard.Every time I mention it I'm like, Oh,
they're still available,
but they're getting more and moreexpensive and there are, Anyway, this is,
I really miss that keyboard.Um, but, uh, the point is,

(01:03:30):
um, when I first metChristopher, it was through, uh,
Rii Sakamoto, they did an albumtogether and I wrote to um, uh,
Sakamoto s I'm always concernedI'm mispronouncing his name,
but I think I have it right.Um, I wrote to his, um,
management about getting an interviewand they said they couldn't set that up,
but would I like to talk to ChristopherWillits? And I was like, Oh, okay.

(01:03:53):
But it was a really , itfeels like over the top to say it,
but it was a life changing thing becausethe conversations I have with him every
time are, um, opening for me,
which is interesting cuz that'sthe name of one of his albums.
And also it was through discoveringhis work in my conversation

(01:04:14):
with him and some of the tutorials hehad online at the time that introduced me
to Ableton Live, which iswhat I have used as. Like,
it's what I'm using tomake this podcast now.
Like right now I'm recordingon Ableton Live. Um,
and I learned the software and it'swhat I've used for my solo shows and my
albums. I use it for so much and it,
it changed the way Imake music and it opened

(01:04:38):
the way for me to createmy own music and, uh,
experiment and, and learn like, oh,
this software is so good, it's forsomeone like me. Like it's great. And,
uh, it's Christopher Woods that reallydirected me to it. So Christopher,
thank you. Um, yeah, I get,
I get sort of stunnedthinking about, you know,

(01:05:01):
what's changed for me over the years.Anyway, uh, thanks so much for listening.
Thank you Christopher for, uh,
sharing your music and yourheart with this, uh, podcast.
And I will see all of you next time.