MikeyPod 352 | Interdisciplinary Sound Artist Brian Harnetty

This conversation with interdisciplinary sound artist and composer Brian Harnetty covers everything from spirituality to creative process, to ethics of sampling, and beyond. We talk about (and listen to a few tracks from) his exquisite new album, Words and Silences, which was inspired by and includes archival recordings Thomas Merton made while in his Kentucky hermitage in 1967. I had a great time with this chat, and it inspired me to dive a bit more into the life and work of Thomas Merton. Enjoy!

BRIAN HARNETTY is an interdisciplinary sound artist who uses listening to foster social change. He works with sound archives and the communities connected to them, creating encounters that are centered on place and the transformative power of listening. Since 2010, Harnetty’s projects have brought together myth, history, ecology, and economy in Appalachian Ohio, informed by his family’s roots there. His current project, Words and Silences, is a musical portrait of Kentucky monk and writer Thomas Merton, fusing archival recordings of Merton’s voice with newly composed music.

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
04:22 Sound of an Unperplexed Wren – Brian Harnetty
10:17 Conversation with Brian Harnetty
26:36 Who Is This I? – Brian Harnetty
34:15 Conversation with Brian Harnetty
52:14 Breath, Water, Silence – Brian Harnetty
58:08 Outro

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Photo of Brian Harnetty by Poynter Photo.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast,
episode 352 for October 19th, 2022.
Today's guest is interdisciplinary soundartist and composer Brian Barnetti.
We'll be talking about his mindblowing. I wrote this in my notes,
but it literally is a mind blowing album.Uh, it's titled Words and Silences,
which is a sonic portrait.

(00:20):
This is how it's described on Brian'swebsite of the Trappist Monk and writer
Thomas Merton bringstogether archival recordings,
Merton made alone in his KentuckyHermitage in 1967. Mind you,
along with newly composedmusic by Brian Barnetti. Uh,
it's a really cool album,
and it's a great conversation I'm gonnahave with Brian Achu here momentarily.

(00:43):
But first, I should tell you who I amin case you're new here. I'm your host,
Michael Herron. I'm a composer ofpianist, electronic musician, storyteller,
and perhaps somewhat dormant activistbased in New York City. On this podcast,
I have conversations with fellow creatorswho use their creativity to change the
world. I've been sending thispodcast to your ears for 17 years.
If you like what you hear,

(01:04):
subscribe using the colorful buttons inthe sidebar and [e-mail].
Or just search Mikey Podd inyour favorite podcast directory.
If you'd like to know more about me,stop by my [e-mail].
Hit me up on Twitter only as at MichaelHerron because I shut everything else
down. Or you can [e-mail].
Not a ton to check in on. In mypersonal world, lately,

(01:27):
I'm doing a lot of work. I puta big video up on Patreon, uh,
for those of you who are patrons,if you didn't check that out,
go back and check it out. I've beendoing a lot of behind the scenes,
like kind of housekeeping,gathering my files,
sort of getting my creativehouse in order. Um,
it feels like I'm clearing some spacefor some new work and maybe some new
creativity creative process.

(01:48):
You'll hear me talking with Brianon this a little bit. Um, and, uh,
that's really it. So this,
it would be very boring for me to tellyou about how I've found a great new way
to, uh,
categorize my folders ofarchival videos of things
I've done. So that alreadywas a little too much. Uh,
so that's what my world has beenlately. A lot of teaching and, um,

(02:11):
a lot of cleaning up filesand things, and that's great.
Isn't that fun? Um, I do wannamention the NYC Podcaster Expo,
which was a great time two weeksago, two weekends ago. And, um, yeah,
it was really nice to meet somefellow podcasters in person. Um,
there were some cool speakers. Um,

(02:31):
I spoke with my friend Sebastianabout pod fading and, um,
yeah, it was pretty cool.I just wanna mention it.
That's really all I wanna say aboutit. And, um, yeah, that's it. ,
we should get into the interview, but Iof course need to thank my podcast, my,
uh, subscribers on Patreonfor powering this podcast.
These are people who subscribe for $5or more a month and get special perks,

(02:54):
tons of free downloads of mymusic and zines bonus podcasts.
There are nearly 80 of them.Maybe it's over 80 now.
I keep estimating that it's 80 andI don't, I know it's not 80. Uh,
I'm saying 80. How manytimes did I just say 80? Uh,
you'll have immediate access to allthese files when you, when you subscribe,
including this week's bonus episode,
which will feature an extendedconversation with Brian Barnetti.

(03:17):
And we'll be talking about and listeningto a not yet released recording.
And I think maybe sharing thisin a slightly different way, Um,
I'm gonna experiment with some thingsbecause podcasting has been really fun
lately. So I wanna see what it's liketo do something different. So, um, yeah,
that's it. We're gonna listen toa track from Brian's new album,
Words and Silences. I wanna tellyou, just, just to make sure,

(03:40):
cause I kind of said it quicklyin the beginning of the show. Um,
the album is based off of andincludes recordings of Thomas Merton
from a, a retreat he wason in 1967 in Tennessee.
So you're gonna hear Thomas Merton'svoice at the beginning of this piece.
So that's what's goingon, . And this,
you'll hear it's a really fascinatingproject, and it's really interesting the,

(04:03):
the kind of questionsand observations that,
that Thomas Merton's observationsand questions raised in. It's,
it's really interesting. But thispiece is called Sound of an Unpled Ren.
And, uh, this is from BrianBarnett's album, Words and Silences.

(04:24):
Okay, now I hope we can go on recordinglike this. I think it will stay down.
Good. Let's go.
Reader.
Sound of an un perplexed.

(04:46):
To reader.
No comment necessary.

(05:18):
It's a cardinal metal lark,
cardinal fly catcher,

(05:50):
voice of the tape. Uh, commenton the silence of the Hermitage.
The silence commented on also by birds.
Now some experimental reading,
a piece of Samuel Beckett

(06:12):
abstract, like apainting, two dimensional,
The colors, It is flat,
but fascinating. Somethinglike clay, Paul Clay,

(07:02):
It has a strange effect,like a message of spies is
definitely affected by the media
that we use. The end of the piece
sounds almost metaphysical,

(07:24):
an interesting piece ofwriting. I wonder how it sounds,
pops. I'll play back in a minute.

(08:18):
Sounds very good. Now,what it brings out is the,
the monotony of thelanguage and of the syntax
evading complicated statements,
simply, uh,
stringing together nounsand adjectives and so on,

(08:39):
seems to emphasize themetaphysical silence behind
the person, the personsthat he is talking about.
And in the end,
the silence is emphasizedas being metaphysical.
This is a piece whichdoes manifest the silence.

(09:03):
The perplexity is very subdued in it,
and this is the right kind of perplexity,
not a an emphatic perplexity,
but a subdued and deep
awareness that everything is perplexed.

(09:24):
And that in this,
Getting back to a concreteelemental awareness of the things
without anything that we haveadded to them without any comment
of our own, seeing them in their bareness,
their way of merging into each other,

(09:49):
their flatness,
taking away the perspective thatwe have put into everything,
seeing them again as flat,
allowing them to make theirown different perspective
of something underneath whichwe have not presupposed,
which we have not putthere. Honest Beckett.

(10:17):
That was Brian Hardy's sound of the unperplexed run from his latest album,
Words and Silences. And Brianis here right now, right now,
to talk to us. Uh, thanksso much for joining me today.
Uh, thank you so much for having me.
Um,
there's so much that'skind of like encased in

(10:38):
in what you've done here. Um,
can you give a just ageneral rundown about what,
what the project is, what the album is?
Sure. Um, it's called Words and Silences,
and I like to think of it as amusic portrait or a sonic portrait
of Thomas Merton, who was, uh,
20th century monk writer and activist. Um,

(11:02):
he died in 1968, and, um,
this album contains recordingsthat he made, um, a year earlier,
um, in the solitude of his hermitage. Uh,
and the recordings are pretty remarkable.
They are intimate and, um,
very open, and I just love the way the,

(11:23):
the candor of his voice and the way thathe speaks about a variety of subjects,
including, uh, Samuel Beckett andMichelle Fuco and Sufi mystics,
and the racial protests that weregoing on in Louisville at the time. So,
uh, all of those things arereally attractive to me.
And then I have my ownensemble and we, um,

(11:44):
make music to go alongwith the recordings.
It all weaves together so beautifully.
And there's a chatbook that aaccompanies the album, which, um,
talks about your experiencediscovering his experience.
Like you talk a lot in thechatbook about how the,
the role of the tape recorderthat he was speaking into,

(12:06):
sort of changes dependingon what he's doing.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Sure. I mean, I, I mean, he,Merton immediately to my mind,
uh, used the tape recorder as a,uh, as a contemplative tool, um,
as a way to like, you know,both dive deeply into himself,

(12:28):
but also to connect with the world. Um,
and he had been doing this alreadywith, obviously with his writing,
but with poetry as well,and then experimental photography and, and painting.
Um, and so it just seemed likeregardless of what medium he was using,
um, he had that edge to it where hewas discovering the medium itself, um,

(12:50):
and also figuring out how to useit, um, as a contemplative tool.
So that's, that's one thing.
And then I also started to notice thatit was only like a couple days into it
where he started to interrogatethe tape recorder, um,
as a medium and what that means, um,
as a, as a person in solituderecording himself, you know, and then,

(13:15):
and then listening back to himself,um, with the recorder being, you know,
a a silent listener. And then,um, reflecting back at, uh,
a distorted mirror image of himself.I, I immediately thought of, um,
uh, Samuel Beckett's play Crapslast tape. I don't know if you,
if you know that one.
. I don't.

(13:35):
Uh, but basically it's, um, youknow, it's about an old man,
uh, who has been making tape recordingsof himself throughout the years. And,
um, it's late in his life, and he, he,um, listens back to the recordings,
of course, it's like withSamuel Beckett humor,
where he's like eating lots of bananasin the background. So, but this is not,

(13:56):
not quite the same there. But,um, uh, I just loved that, um,
that way of interrogating whatis tape and what can tape reveal.
And to my mind,
after listening to these recordingsso many times over and over again,
I think what the tape started toreveal was Merton's own uncertainty.

(14:17):
Um, you know, what I like tothink of as an uncertain self, um,
and his own vulnerabilityand openness, um,
which I think is, um, actually,
it's just remarkable toto hear on a recording,
and it's different hearingit than from reading it. Um,
there's the old adage that, um, uh,

(14:40):
speech conceals and tape reveals uhhuh and, uh, or,
or recording or voice orrecording reveals, and you can,
you can hear in his voice allkinds of extra information and, um,
curiosity and uncertaintythat I think, um,
I don't know. I find a lot of, uh,solace in that. I, I like that.

(15:02):
I prefer that to, um,being so self-assured,
um, that you seem to have all the answers.
Yeah, that,
and that was one of thethings that started to really grab me about the piece in
a, in a track we're gonna listen to ina little bit. Well, I would love to,
this is also a great time totalk about the first track,
which we really haven'tlike discussed much yet. Um,

(15:23):
which is the sound of the Unpled Ren.That's what we started the interview with.
And that in general,
sort of comes off as a little bit moreof an everyday sort of recording and just
his observations, unless of coursethere's more there that I'm,
that I'm missing .
Well, I, uh, so I, it's, youknow, in 2017, I, I went,

(15:47):
um,
to the Thomas Merton archives inLouisville to start to listen to these
recordings. And I had been, Ihad been trying to, you know,
I'd been listening to all kindsof public recordings that he made,
and they were all very, um, faced,uh, openly towards the public,
and they felt, um, I mean,they were, they're fine. Um,
but it didn't interest me very much.

(16:09):
I just couldn't find whatI was looking for. Uh,
and then the archivist therehanded me, um, you know,
a group of recordings that, youknow, that I ended up using,
which he made in Solitude,um, of the Hermitage.
And I was just so struck at how differentthey were and how intimate they were.
But yeah, this first track, um,
uses the very first recording that hemade in the, in the, uh, Hermitage.

(16:34):
And, you know, I turned the trackon, and he just sort of breathlessly,
belted out, you know, um,
really fast without any pauses orpunctuation, you know, Okay, let's go,
you know, and just right into it.And I just thought, Okay, here we go.
And I just seemed like theperfect way to, to begin. Uh,
and then he went outside andrecorded, you know, some of the, uh,

(16:57):
floor and fauna around him, and lotsof bird sounds. Uh, and then of course,
this is a pattern that I seem to findover and over again where he pays
attention to his surroundings and tonature. And then it drives him inward,
and he starts to reveal allkinds of knowledge, you know, uh,
about whatever philosophers or, uh,

(17:18):
religious mystics or something likethat. But he's always aware of his, um,
surroundings. So I wanted toground the album in, in that, too.
I didn't want it just to be some sortof like, philosophical treaty, you know,
that like, uh, Burton was doing,
but really to pay attention to thosesounds of the birds and how the birds
inspired him to think deeplyabout himself and the world.

(17:40):
Mm. I think one of the things that'sreally moving to me about the,
your project is, it, it really,
this is one of those moments I chI'm challenged to put into words,
but I think I can do it,the, the way that, you know,
his exploration and his creativityand his spirituality are
now like inspiring yours.You know, like you,

(18:02):
you've discovered these recordings.And if I understand correctly,
were you on retreat whileyou were transcribing,
you transcribed all these tapes? Isthat, am I on board right with that?
Yeah, I mean, I, you can tell that ittakes me a long time to do a project.
So this was a couple years later, and I, I was, I was in Vermont, um,
on, uh, an artist, uh, residency calledMarble House. Mm-hmm. , um,

(18:27):
and it's amazing. And,
and the music building is setapart and up the road a bit,
so it really felt like I could be insolitude as long as I wanted to. Um,
of course then I enjoyed going down andhaving dinner with everybody and hanging
out. But yeah, during that time, yeah,I was transcribing all of these tapes,
and I, I was able to slip intothe, that feeling of solitude.

(18:52):
And then again, um, uh,the next year at, um, uh,
Log Haven in Tennessee, I had anotherartist residency, was able to do it again,
and that one was really, reallyquiet and in the wintertime. And, um,
but I was able to, you know, finishrecording all the piano parts and like,
do you know, all ofthat work there. So, um,

(19:12):
it's that connecting with solitude, um,
that I think helped the projectalong a bit. Yeah, sure.
Yeah. And it's just, it'sinteresting seeing the,
the thread of contemplation and creativity
that, that he inspired, you know, yearsago in the late, late sixties Yeah.

(19:33):
1967, it seems.
Like. That's right.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, seeing that through lineand then where you're like, you know,
you're leaving this through line offwith having created this project and
with a,
with a string available to someone elseto take that same contemplation and in
different direction and creativity. Right.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and ofcourse, I mean, I have a family,

(19:55):
so it's a very different, uh, Oh yeah. Different experience. And, um,
but, uh, eventually that movedout into the garage and, you know,
like working there as well and trying tofind the solitude and then the pandemic
hit. And so that forced another kindof solitude altogether. And, um,
uh, and yet this materialseemed to be, you know,

(20:18):
um, a solace I would say, forme at least, to, you know,
to work on it during thattime period because it, it,
it offered all of these differentways to embrace, uh, solitude.
So it was a good, a goodreminder that way, .
Yeah. Uh, well, let's, let'stalk a little bit about, um,
who is this? I, um, I was listeningto the album for the Fir Well, I,

(20:41):
the first time I listened toit, I was doing other things.
It was when I first gotit, and I was like, Oh,
I'll listen to this while I'm doingsomething else. And I was, I mentioned in,
before we started recording that, Iwas like, What, you know, what is this?
Cause I hadn't really read aboutit, so I had a long subway trip. I,
I'm in Brooklyn, and I waslistening to it on the subway,
which was interesting for otherreasons. Um, but who is this eye was,

(21:04):
I think in my process oflistening to the album,
that was the moment that I was like, Oh,
like I was really appreciating andenjoying the album, but that moment in,
who is the si where wereally feel a really human
natural expression from Thomas Merton?
And then your music's response tothat was really powerful. Like, I,

(21:27):
it was something I wentback and listened, like,
Did I hear that the way thatI did ? Um, yeah. Yeah.
It's a beautiful piece.
Is there anything you want to add ortalk about that piece before we give it a
listen?
Well, that's good. I'm glad that ithad that effect on you. Um, yeah,
the premise of,
of that particular pieceis that Merton is reading a

(21:48):
passage from the Sufi mystic,even Al Arab, and, um,
uh, and then commenting on it, soit, it feels a little dry at first.
And I,
I kept that in there because I just reallywanted to hear that passage that he's
using, which is essentially, um,
comparing like two sides of thesame coin, um, of different things,

(22:09):
uh, are really the, the samething. And it's all, you know,
whatever the absolute, So it's, it's basedin these Sufi, uh, texts or whatever,
but the, the text also asksthe question, Who is this? I?
And so Merton keeps, uh,repeating that, um, again,
he starts to comment on hissurroundings and the Hermitage,
he's thinking about the, thegas just turning off. Um,

(22:33):
and you can hear the tickingof the clock next to him. Um,
and as he continues to question
or to raise that question, um,
you can hear it like audibly affect him,
and there's like a little bit of a, awarble in his voice. Now, of course,
this is my totally subjective interpretation of the recording.

(22:55):
Yeah. I mean, it's, thisis not fact or anything.
This is just how I hear itafter listening to it. I mean,
probably a hundred times it seemslike, um, just again and again. Um,
but that's the, the feeling that I getis that there's something revealed.
And later on he asks, like, Whatdoes the tape reveal? And so to me,
this is what it does.

(23:16):
It reveals his own uncertainself and his humanity.
Um, and again, you know,he he had just, um,
fallen in love like, uh, uh, sixmonths earlier with, with, um,
he had, uh, back surgery and he fellin love with his nurse. And I, I,
I think he was sort of questioning,you know, all, you know,

(23:37):
whether he should leave and, and getmarried or if he should stay. And, um,
you could hear like that, that sadness,
I guess of all of that context,all that stuff that, you know,
I've read about, you know,
in his journals or whatever beforehandcome out in that one question.
So yeah, it feels, it feels very, um,there's like a lot of, a lot of layers,

(24:00):
um, to unpack with just that one word.And for the music, I just tried to like,
get it out of the way, you know,like try to like, keep it as,
as spare as possible. Um, the music'soften pretty ambient. I mean, it's not,
and by that I mean, it's, there'snot a lot of chord changes. I mean,
it's kind of like sitting in a particularsonic world for the duration of each

(24:22):
piece. And I thinkthat's on purpose. Well,
it is on purpose because I, I, I want,
I want the music to interact with, um,
and cohabitate with the, withthe recordings, but I don't,
I don't want it to be likenoodling. Like, you know, when it's,
when it's, uh, when the words arethere, I really want it to, to, um,

(24:45):
offer that open space sonic space. Yeah.
That, that,
that's something that I observedabout the music and sort of forgot that
I have had observed.But especially in that,
and this is just frommy memory of the piece,
I feel like the,
the music does a great job inthat little spot of just sort of

(25:09):
supporting the moment in away. Like, it's, it's, it's,
yeah, I think that's the best wayI could say it. It feels very, it,
it's there and it really, Idon't even know how to put into,
and I think that's what music does it,
it expresses things that wecan't find words for. That's.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's the goal. Yeah.For me too, .

(25:30):
Yeah. But it, it felt verymuch like, sort of like,
uh, how supporting him inthe moment, you know, like,
yeah.
And also like finding the, um, thecracks and the silences, um mm-hmm.
, um, and, and, um, fillingthose occasionally, but not always and,

(25:50):
and, and doing it quitesubtly or whatever,
just to kinda like punctuatelike different, um,
pauses or, um, yeah, to keep itmoving. You wanna keep it moving,
but you also wanna, um, yeah. Keep it, uh,
minimal as possible. Yeah. ,Yeah, in my mind at least. Yeah,

(26:11):
.
Uh, mission accomplished.
Yeah. Not that you seeking I did.
Go ahead. Go ahead.
Oh, no, I was just gonna say, I didjust use the word newland. So .
I appreciate that you left offthe G and I felt that apostrophe.
Yeah, that's great. Uh.
Well, let's give, let's listen tothis track. Um, who is this? I,

(26:33):
uh, from the album Words and Silences.

(26:58):
Sunday morning, April 23rd,
fourth Sunday after Easter,
some notes from a book on even Rrb,
The Sufi
about how the absolute is thecannot be known except as a
synthesis of opposites andhow God knows himself in us,

(27:23):
and, uh, recognizes himselfspeaking to himself in us.
This needs to be louder, I think.

(27:47):
Hey,
Rrb quotes a saying of amystic of Baghdad and then
explains it.
The inward belies the outward whenthe latter says I and the outward
belies the inward. When the latter says I,
and this applies to every otherpair of opposites. In every case,

(28:07):
the one who says something is one, andyet he is the very same one who hears.
This is based on a phrase said by theprophet and what their own souls tell
them,
indicating clearly that the soul is thespeaker and the hearer of what it says.
At the same time,
the knower of what itself hassaid in all this phenomenon,

(28:29):
the essence itself is one, thoughit takes on different aspects.
Nobody can just ignore this becauseeverybody is aware of this in himself,
insofar as he is a form of the absolute.
Therefore, this business ofspeaking and hearing oneself

(28:50):
with a tape recorder can beregarded as an extension of
the coincidence of opposites bywhich the absolute is present in one

(29:52):
to return.
Tobi then the inward belies the outward.
When the latter says Iand the outward belies,
belie is the inward when thelatter says, I, who is this?
I, I speak, Here I am speaking.
And a moment ago, the birds weresinging and the guests just turned off.

(30:16):
Who is this I? Who am I who sit here?
It's very difficult to say,

(30:38):
Because the I who speaks outwardly,
who uses this tape recorder,
who speaks back to itselffrom a tape recorder,
is to some extent an illusion.
And to use a tape recorder isto perpetuate this illusion,
create this elusory identity,and yet it is a real identity.

(30:59):
And inside, within
there is that which has justcanceled and denied and negated
this outer identity.
And yet the outer identity also calls
into question. Cancels tendsto negate the inner identity,
and this produces the state,

(31:21):
which Rrb calls the state of perplexity in
which we are constantlycanceling out each other
inward and outward.
And this canceling out is thepresence of God in this mutual
dialectic between the inner and the outer,

(31:43):
for which there is no union,
except in the absolute who ispresent and who hears himself
when I speak and praises himself
in this perplexedawareness of an identity,
which I do not know, cannot grasp,
cannot understand,

(32:04):
but must affirm in simplefaith and in obedience to him
who leaves me in this perplexity.And it is the best place to live.
The perplexity of this solitude in which
you wonder who it is thatlooks at this valley and

(32:24):
says, I,
and is aware of seeing allthese beings out there,
which are in contrast to theeye, Which seem to deny it,
and which yet affirm andthe singing of the birds

(32:45):
makes also the absolute present.

(34:15):
That was, Who is this? I, uh,Brian Horny from his new album,
Words and Silences. Um, Brianis with me here with the album.
One of the things that Ithink is super interesting,
and I didn't really think about it muchuntil, um, reading the Chatbook too,
this idea of the taperecording capturing. And it,
I think the first track reallyas a great example of this too,

(34:38):
that it's capturing the wordsthat he's saying at the,
which go back and forth between beingsort of presentational like you've noted
in the, uh, in the chatbook.
Like he's has kind of a poet voicehappening sometimes and other times.
Um, but it really capturesthe, the time, like the,

(34:59):
the moment that he was in this retreat.
The time and the place too, uh, whichI think is really important. Yeah,
we feel the room, we feelthe, the birds and the sound,
it takes place in the spring. So like,he's noting all of these different birds,
obviously. Um, but I, I think that,
that that is just as importantas anything that the,

(35:20):
the place itself becomesa character in the.
Show, and you've referredto it as sort of a, a,
a one person play in a way, right?
That's what it feels like to me. Andthat's, I mean, obviously I'm, I'm, again,
it's a subjective,
and so I am editing the wordstogether in a way that feels good
to me. Um,

(35:41):
and so I approach the text as if I
am not a playwright,
but I what I imagine a playwright woulddo and essentially with like a,
like a cut up, uh, technique, um,
but also paying attention to the,
the grain of Thomas Burton's voice and,
and what sounds are there. And likethat, that's just as important too.

(36:05):
So it's texture place,um, the text itself, um,
and, um, all the sounds around. Yeah. Hmm.
How many hours of tape were there?
Do you, do you.
Know? That's a good question.I mean, I, uh, I, I, uh, as a,
as a way of moving through them, Itranscribed the text, the, the tapes,

(36:30):
um, that I had. Um, I mean, there are,
there are hundreds in the, in the, um,in, in the collection and the archive,
but I was really interested in theseHermitage tapes and that those are more
limited. So maybe, um,
I would say 15 tapes or so that eachare about an hour, so maybe, you know,
15 to 20 hours or so. Um, but Itranscribed a good chunk of those and,

(36:52):
and again, as a way to, uh,
move through the text and edit it, um,
cuz it's really hard to remember andsearch through something that
hasn't been transcribed before. So, um,so that was, that was my way through it.
A long, tedious process,but also really interesting.
I was sort of thinking howeasy it would be or easier

(37:16):
to have a computer transcribe the wholething, you know, and Right. ,
but that would've kind of removedyour part of the process, right?
Does, Yeah. Yeah. And, andagain, you know, listening for,
you know, size or laughter or, um,
coughing or, you know,when he shuts the tape off,

(37:38):
it's always interesting because he islike finishing a thought and then he is
just like, Fine bloom, youknow, And you feel,
you feel the tape shutting off. And,and, um, somehow I wanted to like,
um, well, it was already captured,
but I wanted to emphasize thosesorts of things. Um, so yeah,
just the text alone wouldn'thave done it. And I,
I needed all of the other soniccues for, for good context.

(38:02):
Well, two things aboutthe time of transcribing.
There was at some point during the, um,reading the chat book, when you talk,
we're talking about transcribingit, and I first realized like, Oh,
he transcribe these things. Andin a way I was like, Oh, it,
my first thought was like, Oh,you're wasting all that great, uh,
retreat time transcribing these tapes,. But then I realized like, Oh,

(38:23):
wait, this is the, that is theproject. Like, that's the piece too.
I think, I think my projectsare 80% listening, you know, or,
or more. And then, um, when Ican't stand it anymore, ,
Then I start to, to play with thematerial. Um, but I really wanna,

(38:44):
I want to find ways to,
to get that material into my mind sothat I'm thinking about it all the time.
Or even when I'm, you know, just wakingup in the morning or tired at night,
those things are, are popping up inmy mind and, and moving around and,
and I'm paying attention to that.
I'm paying attention to what littleglimmers and clues or things that might
speak speak out to me, youknow, as I'm, you know,

(39:05):
going through all of this informationI do with the music too. Uh, um,
I, for example, um,
other scholars had had figured out allof this music that Merton had listened
to throughout his life, um, andthey generously shared that with me.
And so I went through the process offinding the music that I appreciated,

(39:25):
you know, from like early Boogie Woogiepianist and, uh, Mary Lou Williams and,
and so forth, Um, and transcribedthat, and then thought about,
you know, what was it like for Mertonto listen to these people, you know,
growing up or partially in NewYork and, and listening to, um,
all of these bands play.And then in solitude,
he was like listening to Dylanand, and John Coltrane's ascension.

(39:49):
So it's like really, um, uh,
a wide variety of music. And so I, my,
my process again,
just like with the tapes is to transcribesmall bits and pieces of the music,
um,
to think those through and see if there'ssomething that I can be inspired by
that. And then, I mean, itcould be something as much as a meter or a tempo or,

(40:12):
you know, a small phraseor something like that. Um,
and then that for me givesthe project a kind of, um,
logic to it aroundMerton's interests and, um,
love for these musics.
Well, so you, you transcribed themusic he was listening to at the time.
Did I understand that correctly? Some.

(40:33):
Of it, yeah. Not, Imean, little bit. I mean,
I'm not doing the whole thing ,let's just be honest too. ,
I'm finding like little bits andpieces that I think, Oh wow, that's,
that's an interesting chord. Or, um,there's a small phrase, you know,
like that kind of stuff. And then,yeah, using that to spin out. Um,
I mean, it's related to, um,

(40:55):
sampling and the long history of musicalborrowing mm-hmm. . Um,
but it's sort of stepped backa few, a few layers, um, and,
and not quite as overtbecause I'm, again, you know,
I'm really thinking about therecordings that being in the,
in the front of the forefront, um,
but wanting the music to be inspired bythe place and the time. So it's like,

(41:18):
with earlier projects, you know,I was like working in Appalachian,
Ohio around recordings andpeople that were, you know,
grew up in the 1920s forexample. So it's like, Oh, okay,
I'm gonna listen to that music and take,
take little bits from there and then seeif I can't spin it out into something
new.
Huh. That's really interesting.It's just something that,
that I think about in termsof my own creative process,

(41:40):
which is a little bit kind of beingreformed . But, um, yeah,
that, that idea of, you know,
those are tasks that I would typicallybe like, Oh God, I gotta, you know,
I wouldn't really lean into transcribingeven a section of a piece of music,
partly cuz I'm really slowat doing that, but, um.

(42:02):
Me too .
But the idea of reallyletting that be a part of the,
or or remembering or noticingthat that's part of creating
something new is sort of, yeah.
Really examining and being a part of what
you're drawing from or what hasled you to create this thing.

(42:23):
Yeah. Well, it's, it's world building,right? Mm-hmm. ,
and it's also giving you the spaceand time to, um, build that world,
but also in try to inhabit as much asone can, you know, the subject of your,
of your work. And also, I mean,I do think of material, right?
Like sound material. It's, it'sjust more interesting for me.

(42:44):
Or maybe it's a, a fault ,you know, it's like, rather than,
uh, I don't know, rather thanlike a scale or, you know,
a set of pitches orsomething like that. I'm,
I'm just interested in materialand how other people have made,
made music and in history. Right.So, and then how do you perform that,
that history? Um, of course it's,you know, it's really complicated,

(43:05):
you know,
and can be problematic along the linesof appropriation and stuff like that.
So it's, you have to do it with acertain kind of, um, respect and,
you know, stewardshiptoo, you know, and, um,
to try to figure out what the best, bestbet is through all of that stuff. Yeah.
Yeah. That is a, a.
Big question. That's allother conversation. Yeah.

(43:25):
And it's a, it's one that I'mreally interested in, but, um, Yeah.
Too, Yeah.
Because it's very, especially as, youknow, , I guess we're going there,
but we'll do it quickly., you know, like,
especially because of the last like 10years and especially the last maybe five,
three years, um,

(43:45):
this has really become a big largerpart of our conversation as a culture,
as a society, realizing
I'm, I wasn't as woke asI thought I was, you know,
like the mistakes made along the way.Sure. And like those moments of like,
do I, do I get it yet? Is ita, you know, is it, you know,

(44:06):
like there's so many like momentsthat I question myself as a,
as an artist and an educator,
all the different ways that I presentother people's work or I'm inspired by
others, people, other people'swork. Um, yeah, it's a big,
it's a big question That mightjust be a comment on what.
Well, yeah, I'll, I'll offerthis, which is, I mean,
I've struggled with this too fora very long time. And, um, um,

(44:31):
certainly the, the ethical problemsaround sampling in particular. Um,
and so I don't have, Idon't have answers, um,
and it changes all the time,
but a few of the things that I do areto develop relationships with the people
and the communities that are connectedto the archives that I work with. Um,
and that, that is a really goodprocess because it informs, um,

(44:54):
what I do. And then I also, um, enter into contracts,
um, like willingly, um,with both, you know, if,
if it's a formal archive with thearchivists and then also with, um,
family members or peoplethat might own, uh,
the rights to the recordings.Um, and I feel like that sort of,

(45:16):
um, relational, um, uh, interaction, uh,
really goes a long way in, in, uh,
affecting how you use the material.
And so when I think about archivesand sampling as not being abstract
at all, but really connected to agroup of people who are alive mm-hmm.
and loved those people onthe recordings, for example, Right. Um,

(45:40):
uh, it changes how I use therecordings, it changes what,
what material I'll use andthen how, how I use it.
And so I'm very much interested inthat being part of my process and then
being audible in, in the projectstoo. So there's my 2 cents too.
. I really appreciate that 2cents. And it, it really shows up here,

(46:01):
you know, in the way thatyou've used this work. I mean,
obviously it's something that you're,you feel personally connected to,
um, but there's a lotof care in how you use
Thomas Merton's recordings. Um,
so I can see how that all sort ofconnects there. There's a spot,
like one thing you said at the beginningof that 2 cents that I think is a

(46:25):
really important thing for, forme to remember. And that is,
I don't have all theanswers. And I think when we,
when we really understand thatwe don't know how to, you know,
we don't know exactly how to moveforward respectfully and aware of our own
privilege and, you know, allof these different things that,
that are things we should have beenthinking about for a long time. Um,

(46:48):
yeah. Just being able to say, Oh, Idon't know. Or, Oh, I got that. Yeah, I,
I missed that one. . Um, here'show I'll do it differently next time.
, you know, it makesa huge, a huge difference.
Right? Well, when I was alot younger, um, you know,
I really loved the ideaof sampling and, you know,
my composition teacher in the uk, MichaelFinny, like, was all about, you know,

(47:12):
notated, um, you know, musicalborrowing. And so I, I mean,
I come from that, that tradition likegoing back to Charles Ives or whatever.
But, um, you know, I, it just,it didn't just occur to me.
I like started to slowly realizethe ethical problems with,
you know, just taking whatever you wantand using it however you'd like. Um,

(47:34):
and, uh, so that, thatbuilt up rather slowly.
And then when I was in Kentucky,in, in Bere, I, I met, uh,
relatives of people that I hadbeen listening to on the tapes,
and it just hit me sohard. It was just like,
it really changed everything forme. It, it really, again, um,
made me realize that those tapesaren't abstract at all. They can't,

(47:57):
you can't just do whateveryou would like with them,
but you really need to spend the timeto build up trust between yourself
and, and those, those peopleconnected to those recordings.
Mm. Uh, I can't wait to dig intomore of your catalog , like,
as, as I'm talking aboutthis stuff, I'm like, Oh,
there's so much morefor me to listen to. Uh.

(48:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, andthen just lastly, and then I,
I did do a project withthe Sun Archives in,
in Chicago at Experimental SoundStudio. And again, like the,
the way into it was to be, I mean,I was invited to be, you know,
alongside other people and it'slike those many different voices all
interpreting the samearchive is really important.

(48:40):
And then I also like literally entereda contract with the archivists and with
Sunrise Nephew. Right. So it's like,
and they had to approvewhatever I sent them. And,
and to me that like made completesense. I mean, it was, you know,
biting your nails nervewracking, but it also, um,
I was really an important part ofthe process. Okay. Yeah. There's my.

(49:02):
. I'm actually really happy.
I'm happy we're talking about thiscause it's, it's a vital topic.
Like it's very important.
Yeah. It's really, really important.
Yeah. Um, we should, um, start windingdown this part of our conversation,
but we are gonna listen to anothertrack, um, breath water, Silence,
which hasn't been one thatI've really like dug deep into,

(49:23):
so I'm excited to listen to itagain and also to hear what,
what you'd like to sayabout it before we listen.
Um, Sure. I mean, I, uh, well, I mean,
you know, these are obviously, again,he's thinking about Sufi mystics again,
and he's thinking about a passagewhich, you know, is a, um,

(49:43):
obviously a religious passagearound the idea of, um, you know,
all of humanity being a, a breath, youknow, like a breath of God. And you know,
we're, our lives are breathed outand then it's breathed back in. Um,
I appreciate the, themetaphor of it and um, uh,
but he's also, you know, there'ssome rain outside. There's like,

(50:04):
it might be thundering lateron or rain coming later on.
And so he's thinking aboutthe weather as well. Um, and,
and he starts to apply breath and um,
and water together in my mindwhere water becomes another
metaphor for, for life. Um, and, you know,
he just speaks very eloquently aboutthat. Um, one thing I'll say is,

(50:27):
is that I went down this summer toMerton's Hermitage to record and,
um, to shoot some film or whatever,but we were performing there too. Um,
and ,
I performed this piece on Merton's frontporch and we just did it in one take,
but like when we started, the weatherwas fine. Um, but like six minutes later,
like a,
a complete thunderstorm hadcome in and so on

(50:52):
the tape you get to watch, you know,
he's merton's talking about a thunderstormrolling in, and then one does. And I,
you know, it just was areminder for me like, Oh wow,
place plays a big part in, in this.
And I was glad that we were ableto sort of interact with it and,
and capture it in a way. Andthen when I finished, you know,
I had to take just a few seconds and thenwe just ran to get the cameras

(51:17):
. Cause we didn't, we didn'twant them to get all, you know,
and the recording equipment to getall, all wet. But, um, of course, yeah,
it was a pretty remarkableexperience. Yeah.
Uh, is that film somewhere that itcan be seen? I totally have missed it.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I, I mean I,we, I just put it out a couple days ago,
so it's, it's on FIO and YouTube and Ican give you the link and everything.

(51:39):
Okay.
I'll put, for those who are listening,
I'll put a link to that in the shownotes for this episode. Uh, alright,
well it's time to say goodbye. Andalso, uh, thank you so much for, uh,
joining me. Uh, brian hardy.com isyour website. I didn't write that down,
but I think I'mremembering that correctly.
That's correct, yeah.
Um, and the album is on bandcamp and all the streaming places

(52:02):
basically, right?
Yes, it is.
Uh, perfect. All right. Well thanksso much for joining me today.
Oh, thank you for having me.
Sure. This is, uh, breath water silence.

(52:24):
Sunday morning, April 30th.
The bell's ringing downin the monastery for
lads.
It's a dark gray morning.It may rain later.

(52:47):
.
I wanna record some thoughts from, again,
even Rrb on Islam and on
the relation of the Lord to creaturesand the relation of the Lord to
nature.

(53:21):
Nature is described by even Rrb
as the breathing of God all being
is grounded in the divine breath.
The prophet says,
He who wants to know the divinebreath must try to know the world.

(53:46):
For he who knows himself, knows his Lord,
we seek our Lord then inthe midst of the creatures,
which he has breathed out, andwhich he breathes out around us,
and while he breathes us out also.

(54:06):
And then he will breathe in andtake us all back into himself.
And we will realize thatall the time we were He

(54:35):
more morning sounds the bright morning,
the sound of water dripping in thebucket is to be heard beside the rain
and the other birds out there.
Uh, for ibi,
water is the mostappropriate symbol of life.

(54:58):
He says, The secret of life is in theact of flowing, peculiar to water.
The watery element is for him themost fundamental element. Of course,
what he's saying there is simply that

(55:21):
he's simply expressingan intuition of dynamism,
movement, and becoming in all things, uh,
a sense of vitalism andof life in everything
Corresponding to his idea of God's mercy.
Breathing into everything course,

(55:43):
the breathing would suggest that air isthe most subtle element as some of these
other medical decisions would'vesaid. In any case, for him,
water symbolizes the lifethat runs through everything.
And to be immersed in water
as a baptism in life,to be baptized in life,

(56:06):
I would say that wouldbe a very good symbol
of the hermit life to betotally baptized in the silence
and the flow and the reality of life.
And thereby to know thefull reality of existence.

(58:08):
From his brand new album,Words and Silences.
That was Brian Barnetti withBreath, Water, and Silence.
Thank you so much forlistening. Thank you, Brian,
for being on the show today and forsharing your work in the bonus podcast.
That'll be up for pod, for I keepsaying podcasters instead of patrons.
That'll be up for patrons in just acouple of days. Um, that's really it.

(58:30):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyedthis show, tell a friend, um,
but spread the word. I'm really taking abig hiatus from social media right now,
which is where I typicallypromoted the show.
And I feel great about that ,
but I think right now is a great timefor you to be telling your friends or
people that you know, who you think mightlike the podcast, um, to listen to it.

(58:52):
And as always, please send me an email,
mikey pot gmail.com ifyou listen to the show.
It's really nice to know that peopleare out there. And, uh, aside from that,
stay tuned for somereally cool interviews.
I should have mentioned thisin the beginning of the show.
Molly Joyce will be returning tothe show in a couple of weeks. And,
um, Martina Oke,

(59:12):
who is a pu enter prizewinning playwright who has a
show on Broadway, she'll beon the show next week. Um,
that was a great conversation too. So ifyou're not already sub, I'm really, I,
I took a nap not long agoand then I chugged a bunch of coffee so I could finish
this podcast. And I think thatI'm getting a little jittery. Um,

(59:36):
so subscribe, Tell a friend andI better turn this thing off.
Uh, see you next week. Bye-bye.