MikeyPod 354 | Composer Molly Joyce

Molly Joyce is back on the podcast to discuss her brand new album, Perspective, which features disabled interviewees responding to what access, care, interdependence, and more means to them. We talk about the development of the album, expanding accessibility with our art, and how a question from a mentor inspired the project itself. Thank you …

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast,
episode 354 for November 8th, 2022.
On this episode,
composer Molly Joyce is joining me on theoccasion of her new album perspective.
This is Molly's second appearance onthis podcast. Welcome back, Molly.
And I'm endlessly fascinated by theway her work focuses on disability

(00:21):
as a creative source. And Iwanna give you this quote.
I wasn't gonna get intothis yet, but I have to,
I know we're still in theintro. Let's not go too deep,
but I want to give you this quote fromPitchfork. In their review of this album,
they said, Perspective,
This album is a powerful work of loveand empathy that underscores the poison
of ableism in American culture. Hi,

(00:43):
come on for that pollquote, . So we'll,
I'll be talking to this composer andwe'll be listening to some of her music
today too. Uh, I am your host, by theway, Michael Herron. I'm a composer,
pianist, electronic musician, storyteller,
and dormant activist based inNew York City. On this podcast,
I have conversations with fellow creatorswho use their creativity to change the
world. I've been sending this podcastto your ears for over 17 years.

(01:06):
If you like what you hear,
subscribe using the colorful buttons inthe sidebar and [e-mail].
Or just search Mikey Podd inyour favorite podcast directory.
If you'd like to know more about me,
you can stop by [e-mail],
and I really would love to hear fromyou. Hello, welcome to the show.
This is the check in time where I talkabout the things I would like to check in
about . Um, I'm working on some,

(01:29):
I I've been in this phase lately of, um,
how do I do this without getting toodeep? I, uh, my, my teaching, I'm,
I'm a teacher. I've probably mentionedthis a million times on the show. Um,
my piano teaching business thisyear, I got very serious about, uh,
policies, billing,
a lot of different things just so Icould really make it a business. And, um,

(01:50):
this has me on top of my budget ina way I never have been before. Um,
and I'm thinking about startingto post this progress on YouTube.
I don't wanna go too deep in it rightnow, but . But the general idea is,
holy shit, I'm 53 years old,um, in a ton of debt and,
um, I don't have anything sayfor retirement. So ,

(02:13):
what do you think about thatas a YouTube channel? Um,
but one of the reasons is I cameto a place finally where I kind of
realized like, okay, sothere's no shame here. Like,
this is just the situation.
And I think that shame is something thatkind of has me in this position where,
you know, I grew up at a time, well, Imean, it's still that time, isn't it,

(02:36):
where being an artist and amusician is sort of like, eh,
not considered a real thing. AndI really internalized that a lot.
I also have pretty scorching case of adhd,
which makes it difficult to see biggerpicture stuff, but there's a lot of,
like, I feel like I've kind of cometo a place where I'm like not as

(02:56):
feeling shameful about that,uh, as I did before. So anyway.
Does that resonate with you at all?
If I were to start doing aseries of videos about that?
Partly because I've beenlooking for someone who is in this position who's doing
videos about getting out of it,
and you don't really findthat exact thing. Uh,
so it might be interesting to,to just put it out there. Um,

(03:20):
yeah, I'd really love your feedbackon that. If you're listening and,
and it registers with you. Um, if youdo feel like asking questions like,
How would you let this happen? Orany other sort of shaming thing,
please just keep thatto yourself. I, I don't,
I'm already good with that kind of that perspective. Thanks. Um,
the other thing is that I'mstarting another creative project.

(03:41):
It's a very small one, um,
that I'm hoping to have wrappedup by the end of the year and, um,
to share with folks. So I'm just sayingthat also to keep myself accountable.
Uh, and that's really the checkin that I have for you today. Um,
I wanna make sure, I think my subscriberson Patreon for powering this podcast.
These are people who subscribe for $5or more a month and get special perks,
like tons of free downloads of mymusic and zines and bonus podcasts.

(04:05):
There are now, this, this week'swill be the 91st bonus podcast.
I can't believe it. I still can'tbelieve I, what is this episode?
300 something of 354 podcasts plus
91 now bonus podcasts thatif I could add quickly,
I'd tell you what that total is,But that's a lot of podcasts.

(04:25):
That's a lot of podcasts. Um, well anyway,
you'll have immediate access to allthose podcasts when you subscribe,
including this week's bonus episode,
which we'll feature anextended conversation with today's guest, Molly Joyce.
The track we're about to listento is, uh, called interdependence,
but I wanna talk to you about the premiseof, of what you're about to hear. Um,

(04:46):
Molly interviewed 47 differentpeople about how these
different words, whatthey meant to them, uh,
so that you're gonna hear the responses,What does interdependence mean to you?
And you'll hear it, it,it's gonna make sense now.
So I'll stop talking andlet's listen to Molly Joyce
Interdependence. And this isfrom the album perspective.

(05:13):
What is inter.
I was foundational part of existing.
For me.
How you interact with,
with the world is a direct relationship to
interdependence.

(05:34):
Boundaries.
If there's anything,
I would say that I'minterdependent on my chair as
a tool, not as a place, um,
or my locker or whateverI use as a tool. Uh,
but I don't consider myselfinterdependent on people.

(05:54):
Plus.
I'm also chair and knowing one's strength
and.
Weakness.
And.
Embracing those.
Things.
Is.
Surrendering to your neighborhood.
About rejecting that mastery modelthat would suggest I know it all.
I can do it all.
I will impose it all on everyone else.

(06:20):
And it is humbly recognizing that actually
all of our lives are
facilitating by multiple others,
usually unseen, others,
wherever any of us got itrequired so many others,

(06:40):
uh, to support us.
And we should value that rather thansuggest that it's some sort of weakness.
Collaboration.
Access and inclusion and lackof access and exclusion are
interdependent on each other.
A way of life for me. I mean,

(07:01):
I feel like so much about life is that
exercise and inters, you know,
as somebody who needs,
needs total help with daily activities,
uh,
you have to share yourself with others.

(07:23):
You have to share your privacyto with others. You have to be
dependent on others and, uh.
Have.
A lot of life care.
Mm-hmm.
Wellness, both at your,
the ability to do things all, you know,

(07:45):
people that, to be incredibly at a,
a loss control.
It's.
About being invested inothers' lives just as
much as your own to beconnected to each other.

(08:05):
Cause you want be, and you need to be, um,
not cause you're expectingsomething in return.
I think human beings arenaturally interdependent.
I get here by the bus driver in theshop that sells me milk or coffee,
uh, my porter at the door of my building.
All of those other things which we takefor granted enable us to live the life

(08:29):
we appreciate.
And I think that normally peopleignore it and they think the
disabled people are the ones that needextra help, but we're all interdependent.
The.
Only way to be successful and intruth in some ways to be happy is that
kind of interdependence you get whenyou engage with other human beings.

(08:52):
So.
Interdependence is that reliancethat we have back and forth,
that exchange we have, notjust for physical need,
but also emotional need. Um,it's the fact that it's not, I,
it's never, I, it's always.

(09:13):
Realizing that we allhave our care networks
and we all need them.

(09:34):
That was interdependencefrom Molly Joyce's new album
perspective.
And Molly Joyce is joining me for asecond visit to the podcast today.
Thanks so much for being here.
Yeah, thanks so much for having.
Me. It's so cool to sort of liketouch base again after, you know,
it's been at least a couple years.
I should have looked up tosee when I talked to you last.
Do you have a new album perspectiveand the track we just listened to

(09:58):
Interdependence is from that. Um, isit, is it possible to give like a,
the elevator pitch, I guess it's called?
How much time do you have now,? Um, um, yeah, the album,
I call it kind of like adisability interview album. Um,
so it features what I like to say,
like the voices and viewpoints ofdisabled interviewees responding to, um,

(10:19):
concepts like what is access forthem, um, what is care for them. And.
It's, and it was originallya, um, installation. Yeah.
Like there's so much I learned aboutthis that I didn't realize this was all
going on.
Yeah. It's more of, yeah,
definitely the initial impetus wasan installation for like a public art

(10:39):
festival, um, as part of a fellowship. Um,
I was involved with that House Artslab in dc which then that was like from
2019 to 2020, just so that, of coursethat festival got canceled with Covid. Um,
and then from that, I guesswith the Covid cancellation,
but I think even from thestart of the project, I was,
I wasn't always envisioningas an album to be honest,

(10:59):
but I was trying to keepit as flexible as possible.
I think especially Covid showed me to dolike online presentations or the video
formats, et cetera. Um,although I still, I don't,
I probably shouldn't say this, butI do like the dream format for it.
Is the installation, like very,
very much being immersed in it with thesound and the projection in front of
you.
The inspiration for the albumwas really interesting to me as,

(11:22):
as it's written about in the pressstuff. Can you talk about that a.
Little? Yeah, so I guess the, um, soI, I'm fortunate to have a kind of, I,
um, an ongoing whatever dialogueif you will, with Judy Human,
who's kind of a legendary disabilityactivist. Um, she had this,
a memoir come out a few yearsago. I highly recommend.
And she's also featuredprominently in Crip camp, um,

(11:44):
the Oscar nominated documentaryon Netflix. Um, and,
and one of my conversationswith her, um, she's really just,
she's such an amazing mentor to so manypeople cuz I feel like she always knows
the right question to ask at the righttime, kind of progress your thinking. Um,
and in one of my conversations with her,
she asked why I referred tomy left hand this week. Um,

(12:05):
and my left hand was impaired in a caror accident about 20 years ago. Um,
and I knew that I would always say likeif I had to explain why I couldn't do
something or lift something, et cetera,or if someone asked what happened,
I would usually just say like,Oh I have a weaker left side.
Just to try to get it over with, I think,
and kind of get my disabilityout of the room in a way,
like as fast as possible ornot go into a deep explanation.

(12:27):
I think also a lot oftimes for disabled people,
like sometimes when you go into a deeperexplanation it elicits more questions,
which can sometimes be really niceconversation or lead to a not so nice
conversation. It would be a littlemore, I don't know the right word,
traumatizing or so sometimes would tryto just get it out of the room as quickly
as possible. Um,
and this question really struck me causeI don't think Judy was saying I have to

(12:50):
refer to it as my strong left sideand deny weakness altogether. Um,
but really to think about whatweakness means to, you know,
myself as a disabled person. Um,
but then we just started talking aboutit as a really a central concept for
disability culture and thedisabled experience. Um,
and really wanted me to motivate,like motivate me to ask like yeah.
To of people across the range ofdisabilities and experiences really.

(13:13):
Like what is weakness to you orwhat does that feel like to you? Um,
what do you gain from that concept?
I didn't write this number down.
Was it 47 different peoplethat you interviewed for this?
Am I remembering thatnumber or I just make it up.
? Oh yeah, yeah, so far.Um, yeah, so I think, yeah,
with the project's taken a coupledifferent iterations, which has been nice.
So it started with that kind of originaliteration in DC which I think I had

(13:35):
about 20 participantswith that. And then, um,
took on a new iteration withMinnesota with a festival there. Um,
and then won in Idaho with adisabled dance group there.
It's such an interesting project becauseof course it makes me think differently
about disability, hearing the perspectiveof all these different people. Mm-hmm.
, um, and youknow, our conversation that we had last time, really,

(13:56):
like, I think the thing that'sreally so cool about your work,
it sort of raises questions aboutassumptions I've always had,
you know, or you know, we talkedthe last time we talked, um,
about virtuosity as musicians and um,
and it really sunk in with mebecause, you know, for what,
having studied music too,like that whole, you know,

(14:17):
there was a whole part of being amusician that was about like being,
like music was about beingable to achieve particular
movements, like being able toplay a particular way. Yeah.
And so that sort of reallyopened my mind about like, wait,
that's not what music is like.And our conversation really,
you know, opened that up forme. And I think this really,

(14:40):
I don't know like the thequestion about why, uh,
why you would refer toyour left hand as weak,
really it opens up all these, thesequestions that I haven't asked.
And I think that's why uh, I get alittle bit like stumped about like, ah,
how do I express this?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. What was thatanswer like for you? Now?

(15:01):
I'm wondering if you even answeredit already. Yeah. But like what,
how did you answer thatquestion when, when she asked?
Yeah. It's funny cuz I believe,if I remember correctly,
I think I was telling her abouta collaborator of mine j Herman.
And we both have like impaired left sides.
And I think I said we both have weakerleft sides and I think that's where she
started getting on the weakness,um, track in a way. Um,

(15:23):
and I think I was, I, it's kind ofspeechless. I think I had a response.
Cause again,
it's like these words that you're soused to saying to kind of explain your
condition or, you know, in thiscase the collaboration. Um,
so really stumped me.
And I feel like even to this day havingdone these interviews, I still feel, um,
just as confused, I think in a goodway more, I don't have a clear answer.

(15:44):
I mean,
sometimes I feel like my answer to thequestions is maybe through the music,
but that's very much drawn from theinterviewee's answers. Um, so for me,
I think I still feel like at astarting point with those questions,
I feel like in a good way though, whereI don't have a very prescribed answer.
There's, I just think a lot about,
and I put some of this in in my email toyou when we were discussing this show,

(16:06):
that like another thing withme is that I'm, I'm older,
I'm fiftys 53, I'm old enoughthat I'm forgetting how old I am.
And um, and reading glassesis something that I need now.
I became aware of this long time of justlike struggling through and like, no,
I don't need those yet. And just tryingto hide the fact from myself. Yeah.

(16:28):
You know,
and I still like sort of make sort ofcomments when I have to get out my reading
glasses now to read somethinglike, ah, I'm like so old.
But I think that something aboutyour work reminds me like oh
yeah. Like we are all justin the bodies that we're in.
Yeah.
Um, I don't Does that, doesthat go anywhere for you? Like.

(16:51):
Um, I think, I don't know if I'm gonnaarticulate it well, but like that we're,
I don't know we're,
we all strive towards the ma themaximized body I think in a way. And um,
I think even the question of cure, likeone of my interviewees said, you know,
from the moment we're born we startdeteriorating in a way where we grow up.
But then, uh, like we're always onthis process of disabling in a way,

(17:11):
which I found really interesting.Um, and I think your comments,
I don't know if maybe cuzthis is like top of the mind,
but I watched this TV show likelast week and one of the characters,
there was a reality show and she said,
I don't want to end up likethat person in a wheelchair.
Cause she had like hip issuessurgery. And it's like,
I feel like if you take thatsentence and apply to like,

(17:32):
well I don't want to endup like a female or like,
it would sound so wrong that it'samazing to me how a lot of these ableist
thoughts like get reiterated throughsociety and I have it myself as well,
you know, or I'm going through physicaltherapy for various things related to my
disability. But it's likedisarming when you start,
start to lose some ofthat too. Or you just, um,
very frustrating first Iguess in a way. And, um.

(17:54):
And so many of these ableistthings that we say are still
somehow acceptable, quoteunquote, like in our society.
It just amazes me. AndI don't mean to like,
I'm not a very con confrontationalor I don't really like conflict and I
don't mean to say like, that word isbad, this word's right or something.
It just more amazes me that thesephrases, you hear that again,

(18:17):
if you apply it to another minority,
it would sound like completely out ofwhackers or completely problematic. And,
um, and I think it doesn't help anyonelike the non-disabled or disabled person
these words and terms or these, um,
perceptions overall of thisfear and stigma of disability.
Mm. Yeah. And this sort of

(18:37):
shame that people,
it implies a certain amount of shame thatpeople are expected to feel about not
having the right kind of body. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or like,but um, cause it's like, yeah,
I think when I initially startedgetting into disability studies,
so I was thinking like, yeah, likewhat is the right tip of the body to,

(18:58):
you know, I just started thinkinglike, what are we all striving for?
Like I don't have a clear imagein my head or something as.
Yeah.
Like.
Yeah, there's a, there was amoment I had, it was a while ago,
but I try to kind of clingingto it this idea of like,
what if the big joke on allof us is that really our like
perfect, uh,

(19:21):
incarnation or our perfect existencehappens like the split second before
we die. Like the whole processof our lives is to get us to that
point of perfection. Yeah.
Like all our aging and all these thingswe're trying to do to avoid getting
older is like No, that's, that's thething that that's the gift. Yeah.

(19:41):
Exactly.
Yeah. Um, what, doingall these interviews, um,
did you learn anything that you didn'texpect to learn from conducting these
interviews and listening to, I'm sureyou listened to them countless times.
Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think. Or,
cause this whole thing has been doneover a process of three years, you know,

(20:02):
or so some of the editing was,or sorry, like two years ago.
So it's not super freshin my mind. But, um,
definitely learning on the perspectives.
I think especially I related to a lot ofinterviewees who acquire disabilities,
like I think it wasthe question about, um,
is it or cure again? Um,
like in one interview he talksabout who acquired her disability.

(20:22):
I believe the vision impairmentjust says like, yeah,
you always wonder about like, whatif that didn't happen or, or for me,
like that accident, but then youwonder who you would be today,
like without that or ifyou'd be the same person.
That kind of gives me chillsin the course. I mean,
I personally don't think about itall the time, but it's hard not to,
or especially when you're freshoff the accident to think like, Oh,

(20:43):
if that didn't happen. Um, and alsoI think especially with the, um,
the Minnesota iteration, like thelast four tracks on the album,
I interviewed a lot of, um, um,participants with vision impairments. Um,
and like one of thequestions with darkness, um,
and I think that was super interesting.Some of the answers I received, um,
even some of them were like, and darknessis still teeth twirled, the color,

(21:07):
it's not completely dark, you know? And,
and a lot of the darknessdoesn't scare me in a way,
especially for blind people. And um,just very, very interesting for me.
Uh, it's, it's one of thosealbums too that I'm like, Oh,
I need to listen to that. There'sso many pieces of what's happening.
I've listened to the album, but asyou're talking about it, I'm like, Oh,

(21:29):
I should go back and re-listento so many of these things. I.
Quickly kinda.
. Yeah. The, um, I, I'm curiouslike from a musician standpoint,
what, what that processwas like. Like did,
did you set out from the beginningof this, and my apologies,
you may have answeredthis question already,
knowing that you were going to assembleall these pieces of interviews into,

(21:52):
or did you walk into it sort of withan openness, not sure where they,
things would land?
Yeah, I think I wasn't totally surecause I'd never done a project like this.
I had been longing to make my workmore communally engaged in a way or
highlighting other viewpointsrather than just mine,
but was struggling I think for awhile to find a way to do that really
authentically and almostlike ethically in a way too,

(22:13):
or not override it with my like, artisticstamp in a way mm-hmm. .
And so at the beginning I remember,
or I knew I was in this fellowship in DCso I knew this festival was coming up,
so I was like, let me juststart doing the interviews.
Like I have the questions, I'llrecord it. And first I was like,
let me just get the interviews done.
I'll think about the next stage orhow I go about. And I guess I just,

(22:34):
I think I had this inclination that Ijust started editing them down to the
highlights for each interview. Um,
putting them in a temporal order fromthat and then adding my music underneath.
Um, but it was definitely,
and it was interesting last yearI did the Minnesota iteration, um,
or wrote that and it's definitely themost challenging music I think I've
written in a way, or, or like, yeah,

(22:54):
challenging to write just cuz I don'twanna override their opinions too much and
I'm trying to give a, youknow, like ambient intuitive musical feeling in a way,
but also make the music interesting andnot just like a drone or not something
that doesn't develop, ummm-hmm. ,
I'm usually pretty happy with the resultsin the end. But I think during it,
especially last year I was like, Oh,why did I do this to myself again?

(23:15):
just cause it'sso different. And I also,
I guess I wrote most of themusic and logic like without apo,
which is just very,
I usually write everythingdown like notation wise or I'm so comfortable working
that way, um, which is probably why itwas good for me to do that process. But,
um.
Oh, that's interesting. I just like, like I'm in a,

(23:35):
like a world with my crave process.Yeah, yeah. Where for some.
Reason doing things.
Yeah. But I, but I kindof am not, I haven't done anything for a, a while and I,
and I'm realizing like, oh, I, I need toregroup. Like, I'm realizing like, oh,
this, I need a differentprocess. So it's like, I,
it's really interesting to hear,
to hear about yours and that you'vechanged a bit in that you're not notating

(23:59):
things. So did you start like,
I paused because I'm like, Oh, am Igetting too ? This is too much,
Is is too much for the listenersto hear these questions,
but I think maybe it's worth,worth talking about. Like did you start using the,
the clips, the um,
choose like the audio clips you wantedfirst and assemble them in an order you

(24:20):
liked and then start applying,adding the music to that?
Or was there a differentprocess than that?
Yeah, definitely. And I say too, I'mglad someone's interested in the process.
.
Good composer, when you'reworking alone, you're like, Oh,
it's just me and my crazy mind. But.
Oh yeah. And always wondering like, isthis, is this going what I'm doing it?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. You just feel like you'remaking it up as you go. But um, yeah,

(24:44):
so I would, yeah, I would edit it downto the highlights for each interview.
And I guess just to add quicklytoo, I have on my website for who,
whoever's interested,
but I uploaded all the full interviewsand full transcripts of interviews
conducted just cuz I feel like myediting was obviously very biased and
subjected.
So I did wanna open it up just the haveit as an option if anyone's interested.

(25:04):
But, um, but yeah, but then I wouldhave the highlights for each section,
like access and then, um,
put it in a temporal order to like oneI was usually striving for contrast
between voices, like a female voiceversus male voice or something.
Or to not have it, like all male voicesand peers to have some variety. Mm-hmm.
. And then also, um,

(25:25):
sometimes the answers I feel like reallyflowed into one another if they're
talking about similar thingsor the opposite. Like,
I like to often put answers that kindof contradict each other next to each
other. Um, if it made sense just to um,
hopefully show the diversity and reallylike plurality of the disabled or
disability community. Um,
cuz sometimes I feel like peoplethink disabled people have a, um,

(25:48):
very like single minded viewof say, access or care or cure.
And just to really show that there'sso many different viewpoints out there.
It's very individualistic in a way. Um,yeah. So it's kind of how, and then,
sorry, get to get back to your question.
I then I would add the music underneath.
Like first it's just midilike kind of sketches. Um,
and then depending on the music,
I would sometimes actuallymake a rough score for,

(26:10):
to record it on my organ and voice andthen add processing and so forth. Mm.
And then send it to my amazing engineerMichael into, to make it sound good.
Oh, that's great to have an engineer too.
Yeah. Yeah. He.
Yeah. The funny thing,listening to the album one,
I was listening to it for thefirst time. I running around,
I teach in the afternoons andI go from place to place. Um,

(26:32):
and I was listening like, Oh, that'sinteresting. Is she using an accordion?
And then I was suddenly like, No,of course not. It's the organ,
it's the organ that youuse. Um, but yeah, it's,
it's really interesting to hearthat for people who are listening,
it may not know your workvery well yet. Um, the,
well can you describe this court organthat you, that you play and it's, is it,

(26:52):
it's, well it's now that you've describedyour compositional project process,
it's not your maininstrument but it's a very,
the one that you use quite frequently.
Yeah, definitely. It's like a, um,
I use specifically a Magnus brandelectric vintage toy organ. Um,
most of them are from thesixties and seventies. Um,
I discovered them oneBay about 10 years ago.

(27:13):
And I always joke it was kind ofmy ticket to Brooklyn, if you will.
Cause it was huge vintage outta tunethis weird instrument that I initially
really saw as a toy or an accessory.
I didn't think it was likesignificant enough to do, um,
a major solo practice on it. Um,
but then once I started adding electronicsand playing around with it more,

(27:34):
I realized that it was almostmade for my body, if you will. Um,
cuz it has these cord buttons on theleft hand side and a keyboard part on the
right hand side. Um,
so it feels very natural for me toperform on with my disability. Um,
especially in my left hand, I don't havemuch dexterity. And those cord buttons,
all you have to do islike push them in or Yeah,

(27:54):
push them in or push them outin a way. Um, actually, sorry,
pushing from both differentsides or something. But, um,
it feels very natural for my left handand is featured a lot in my worst works,
especially that I perform and recordon. Um, and that eventually added my,
my voice and so forth.
I don't know if you remember I had oneof those when I was a kid in, in the,

(28:15):
in the actual seventies. Um,
but it's one of those things that'sreally interesting just about my, um,
experience of your work because whenI was a kid I wanted a piano and I was
like, Ugh, this terrible thing. Itsounds awful. Especially as I got older,
I thought of it as thisdisgusting roast thing.
But it's really nice to like be like,no, that it's an instrument and you,

(28:37):
it's yeah, beautifulthe way that you use it.
The instrumentation on the album we havethe organ mm-hmm. . Um,
and your voice, which sounds like it'sbeen layered quite a bit in places.
Is there what any other instrumentsgoing on? Are you using other synths?
Anything else within that?
Yeah, just, um, my usual,
I export midi from SEIUsusually, or, or sorry,

(29:02):
this one kind of varied from sometimesthe toy organ midi or midi voices from
logic, um, virtualinstruments or from SEIUs.
It kind of varied and usually I kind oflike combine those with the live sounds.
Um, cause I think, I don't know,it's just the sound I like in a way.
Or I like the like half electronicfeeling, like non-human feeling in a way.

(29:23):
And yeah, it can be veryprecise with rhythm. Um, some,
I think not a lot of tracks have this,
but like the one control is a littlemore rhythmic and that involves like,
hitting on my organ or likesamples from that as well.
Yeah. Um, so it's socool. I love hearing your,
your process and also that part when you,
I love that you mentioned working on yourown and as a composer because there's

(29:47):
still Yeah. , I,
I have that experience a lot and I thinkof the first time I performed any of my
work in front of anyone and this momentlike a couple days before that I was
like, no. Like I hadn't played anyof it for anybody. Yeah. I was like,
is this just like, what ifthis is like really shit?
Like what if this is terrible? Andthere was no one to tell me like, Stop,

(30:10):
don't do it.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No,it's an interesting process. Cause at least for myself,
you know, I compose a midso much and like yeah,
sometimes if you listen to like a mix,
a master version of one of yourpieces sounds amazing, you know,
and then you go to compose and midi,
it really sounds bad even if it's themost brilliant thing ever, you know? Yeah.
Something that sounds bad. And midiwill sound really good live or,

(30:32):
and so for me, I try to like,it's easier said than done,
but I try to just help tell myself tokeep going or especially like with this
project,
once I started processing the soundsa little more like getting some live
recording and it started topick shape more I think. But,
but it's hard in the composing aspectcause for me it's like I don't wanna start
recording until I'm really sure on therhythm and everything or I just like to

(30:53):
be as sufficient as possible. But.
Um, Do you record all the stuff at home?
Uh, yeah. With my SM 58 , I think.
So. , Oh wait,SM 58. Oh, it's a mic.
Like dynamic. Yeah.
Yeah. I these moments like wait, SM58, I know what that is. Oh yeah, yeah.
SM microphone. Um,
I wanted to talk a little bit about thealbum itself and how you've worked to

(31:17):
make it accessible. Um, and therewe, when I thought of that question,
he didn't even,
hadn't even realized that you had putall of the interviews up with, uh,
transcripts. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, it's,
it's just so interesting tothink of making music accessible
mm-hmm. , um,because it's uh, you know,

(31:37):
it's one of those things especiallyas um, a non-disabled person mm-hmm.
that mm-hmm .I only recently been like, Holy shit,
there's a lot that I should have beendoing with my podcast and with these
various things. Um, andwhen we're working in audio,
it's embarrassingly not something thatI have thought of before of like, Oh,
I need to make this accessible topeople who can't hear. Yeah. Um,

(31:58):
what is that like? It maybe,
Well let me let you answerinstead of over describing.
Oh no. Yeah. So when the project Yeah.
Was envisioned as that installationand I was really fortunate to,
I have like kind of a projectcurator with it named Sandy Guttman,
who at the time she was working atthe Hirsch Horn Museum in DC um,
and now she's at University ofIllinois Chicago and she is just,

(32:21):
has been such a great resourcethroughout the trajectory of this pro um,
project.
And in the beginning we started talkingabout like we knew we wanted a video
element and I was starting to work moreand more with captioning in my videos.
And then she had the idea for likethe sole visual output to just be the
captions,
like with the question on the top andtheir interviews answers running through

(32:42):
texts at the bottom. Um,
and I really love that cuz oftenaccessibility facets, um, just in,
in general with artistic context likecaptioning, sign language interpretation,
um,
audio description and so forth are kindof tacked on at the end of the artistic
process mm-hmm. right before presentation.
And so I feel like they're generallyviewed or heard as not very, you know,

(33:05):
aesthetically pleasing in a way,
which sometimes is preferred for someusers too. I'm not saying that's,
there's anything wrong with that. Um,
but I always love the challenge of tryingto artistically integrate it so it's
really a crucial part of the artwork orif you took it away it would seem like
something's missing. Um,
so I really like this ideawith this project or to have those videos and just be
that the sole visual output and especiallyto leave the middle of the video

(33:28):
frame just totally blackto hopefully up to the,
the audience member's imagination. Um,
I would add to the ideal formatwould to be ha I would to have, um,
would be to have sign languageinterpretations for all the videos.
I did explore that,
but it was a little bit cost prohibitivejust about the work involved. But, um,
hopefully one day I'll be able to do.

(33:50):
That. Your descriptivedescription of the videos kind of
presented a perspective thatI hadn't realized yet. And,
and I dunno if this is what youintended, but the thought of, you know,
like you mentioned captions often arejust tacked on and just like, oh yeah,
here's this. And it's interesting that in,
in your work and in thesevideos it's quite the opposite.

(34:14):
That's the captionsand Oh yeah, we didn't,
we didn't do anything with thismiddle part. It's black. Yeah.
Like this is about aboutthe making it about the
accessibility in a way.
Yeah, definitely. AndI will point out too,
there's so many other disabled artistslike exploring this as well or like
creative use of captioning. LikeI've seen some Kim, um, Lazard, um,

(34:37):
Liza Sylvester, I could go on orI'm definitely not the only one. Um,
that I just, again, I love that challengeand it's also interesting to me too,
like, um, when I start firststarted working with captioning,
I had a video collaborator who likereally didn't want them in I think. Um,
which I understand cuz I think when Ifirst started getting disability stuff
too, like we're justnot used to it in a way.

(34:58):
And it made me startthinking about how like,
I think we're so conditioned in societyto view accessibility facets or hear
them as not like, again, aestheticallyplease, like as not part of the artwork.
Um, and I've even had comments withthese videos since it's only text,
like sometimes people willsay, where's the visual?
Or you should put a visual in the middleof the video frame. Um, and I just,

(35:20):
I just find it interesting in away, um, like what that, you know,
the result of that.
It's interesting the way it makesme think of like surtitles in opera,
like in that setting it's like,
oh we have cert like it in an opera.
We treat it as like,like something special.
Oh yeah.

(35:41):
Um, may is that,
am I trying to put ableismwhere it isn't? You know,
it just feels like because it's likethis special tradition of course
we're doing this, uh,
but if it was something to make somethingmore accessible to people, like, uh,
I don't know if we do that. Yeah.
That's interesting. I'd haveto look that up more cuz um,

(36:03):
I feel like I read an articleor two about how like,
opera is the most primed art form, orat least in music to have disability,
aesthetics, this traditionof subtitling, um,
which is essentially captioning,you know, in a way. Um.
Yeah.
So I don't know. I'd haveto think about it more.
Yeah, I think I willalso think about it more.
.
Well, we should wrap up thispart of our conversation.

(36:26):
It's always great to talk toyou and always very like, um,
whatever that thing I was trying todescribe the whole time we were talking
. Oh.
Oh, no, thank you. Thanks so much.
Thanks. And, um, your websiteis molly joyce.com. Um,
the album is on New Amsterdam records.
And is your website thebest place to go to?
Like what I'm gonna say, Ithink it's the best place to go.

(36:47):
Your website is great by the way,and it's so, it's so comprehensive.
Is there anywhere else people shouldgo to make sure they're on top of all
things, Molly?
Um, yeah, I think the websiteis the best resource. Thank you.
Perfect. All right, well let'slisten to weakness from Molly Joyce.

(37:16):
That's so loaded.
.
Yeah, it's not a word I I thinkabout that much and I wonder why.
I think weakness is one of thosewords that I have trouble defining
insofar as it is often defined for me.

(37:38):
And actually most people find weaknessesdefined for them by somebody outside
and they ends up becoming internalized.
Some.
Disabled people are weak some ofthe time, but so is everybody else.
I can find it hard to admit whenI'm, when I'm, when I'm feeling weak,
the openness there is alsoan openness to potential

(37:58):
hurt.
The default way of,
of being and existing in the world.
I feel a lot of like weakness andfragility in my body and that feels really
connected to telling those to the world.
And I interact with people who don'thave that experience of their body,
but I often feel like that iskind of a mis that they're,

(38:22):
that they're living in.
Internalizing what otherpeople think I'm able to do.
I don't know how many times aday, a week, a month, a year,
people say like, You're such aninspiration for doing blah blah.
And I'm like, I'm such an inspirationfor being on the sidewalk.
Like.

(38:43):
That's how about I'm aninspiration because I
persevered through aneducational track and went on
to do X, Y, and Z and build thisprofessional of career life.
Why isn't that inspirational?
I believe weakness is alack of understanding.

(39:06):
I just wish is superpower.
It does scary, ugly
over aboves of, uh, you know, just
a weakness, you know,

(39:28):
really understand yourself.And I think that's,
that asource of power as well.
Everybody has weaknesses.
And.
Most of us don't like to admit to them.

(39:50):
When I first started losing my eyesight,
obviously my vision impairmentwas a massive weakness.
And, um, you know,
that can certainly consume youwith regard to every aspect of
your life, whether it's, you know, um,
preventing you from doingthings professionally,

(40:11):
whether it's preventing youfrom doing things socially,
whether it's preventing you fromdoing things personally. Um,
and if you allow that to basically,
um, consume your entire life,
then you end up in that dark hole or pit.

(40:34):
And uh, that's where, you know,
a lot of us have been there.
And I'll admit that I certainlyhave been in that dark, dark hole,
um, a few times myself during my.

(41:02):
From Molly Joyce'slatest album perspective.
That was the track entitledWeakness. Thank you so much, Molly,
for joining me on the podcast today.As always, if you're a patron,
go by patreon.com/michael Herron andyou can get a bonus podcast interview
with Molly and myself. Uh, you'llget an email about that too when it,

(41:22):
when it publishes. So, uh,
thanks so much for listeningand I'll see you next week.
I got a run of great interviews coming,so stay tuned. If you're not subscribed,
subscribe already. I thinkthey call it following now,
now I'm just saying things.Okay, we're we're done. Goodbye.