October 9, 2023 • 31 mins
Join my friend Patrick Lyons and I on "Balance, Not Burnout" this week as we dive into the nuances of seeking support and fostering personal growth. Journey with us as we break down the walls of ego, and fear, to explore the strength in vulnerability and the power in asking for help. We'll guide you through strategies to help you overcome these barriers and reveal how to spot your potential mentors.
Discover the advantages of collaboration and learn from others' journeys. We'll discuss the importance of a culture that encourages continuous learning and growth. Our conversation will also cover the fine line between valuing others' insights and maintaining your core values. Stay tuned until the end as we share insights on building reliable support networks, and effective ways to constructively receive and use feedback.
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Check out Mark's Book: Lead, Don't Manage: 12 Lessons in Creating a Leadership Culture Based on Core Values
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
You're listening to Balance, NotBurnout, a podcast helping
leaders rethink the speed oftheir business. And I'm your
host, Mark Williams. Join me asI explore the power of a more
intentional, balanced approachto leadership. Thanks for
listening.
Welcome to Balance, Not Burnout.
This is Mark Williams, and I amsuper excited for today's
(00:27):
episode. I've got a friend and acolleague and someone that we've
worked with now for about fiveor six years at brokers
International. Mr. Patrick Lyonsfrom culture by design. Good
morning, Patrick. Good morning,Mark. Thanks for having me. You
bet. So Brokers Internationalhave been working with you,
Patrick now for about four orfive years. And I don't know if
you remember, but we originallycontracted with you to help us
(00:48):
with our strategic plan. Andthat has morphed a lot. So if
you don't mind, sharing a littlebit about what you do and what
your expertise is in. Yeah, youbet. So I summarize what I do
into one word, and that isexecution. My job is to help my
clients, businesses executebetter. And I do that by working
with them in in three primaryareas. First is that strategic
(01:10):
alignment that you just talkedabout, which does include a
strategic plan, but it'sbroader, it's making sure that
we're having the rightconversations, and that that
leadership team is tightlyaligned around the plan. The
second area is on developingnext level leaders so that as a
leadership team, you can trustthe next level to carry the
(01:31):
torch to be able to execute thatstrategic plan. So it's
leadership development, it mightbe teamwork, it might be one on
one coaching. And then thatlast, that third area is
building culture by design,building, strong, high
performing culture. And thereason I play in those three
spaces is I've think we'vefigured out that that those are
the three things that you need,if you want to execute your
(01:54):
strategic plan as you needleadership alignment, any good
strong leaders at the nextlevel, and then you need people
who are willing to go above andbeyond the day to day to
execute. So that's what I do.
Awesome. And for the past 10years, Patrick has been working
with many organizations of allkinds of sizes. And today,
(02:14):
specifically, Patrick, I'd liketo talk a little bit about
seeking out input and coaching,which is exactly why I wanted
you on the show. So to sharewith everyone, like I said
before, we contracted withPatrick to do some strategic
planning. And once we got toknow Patrick, and realize all
that he could bring to theorganization, we actually
expanded that. And for the pastfour years, Patrick has helped
(02:36):
us, for example, do a employeesurvey every year, and not only
administer the survey, butadminister and coach us on what
to do with the results of thatsurvey, and how to communicate
those results to our employees.
And then what next steps andfollow up are involved. And that
has also led us to have Patrickdo some executive coaching for
(02:57):
us as well. So I thought Patrickwould be the perfect, perfect
guest to talk a little bit aboutseeking out input in coaching.
So I'd probably start offPatrick was saying what is what
do you think the benefits ofhaving an outside set of eyes
look at your organization?
That's a good question. I thinkI've learned through the years,
(03:19):
you know, even and this worksfor all of us, even myself, when
I'm immersed in something everyday.
It's hard to see it's hard tosee the whole picture. And maybe
the analogy that comes to mindis, you know, when I set out to
go to the gym or lose weight,and I'm doing the the daily
things every day, but I'mlooking in the same mirror. It's
(03:43):
hard to see that the cumulativechange, it's hard to see the
progress. And sometimes I havemy own sacred cows, right. When
I look at my organization, it'sit's hard to expand my thinking
beyond Well, this is just howwe've always done it or we do it
this way because it works. Sohaving that outside perspective
having like in the in the gymanalogy having a personal
(04:05):
trainer or someone who can ahelp you see the whole picture,
the bigger picture be helped yousee what other possibilities and
I think See, help help you seethe progress and encourage you
and help you through the theinevitable obstacles and the
challenges that you're going toyou're going to encounter
(04:27):
anytime you're trying to dosomething new.
I'll tell you it for mepersonally, I love feedback. I
believe feedback is a gift. Butsometimes it's really difficult
to hear. I would ask you withall the years that you have been
coaching and providing feedback.
It's really important forsomeone to understand their
deficits, but it's also tough tohear and it's tough to be honest
with ourselves. How do you getthat message across to someone
(04:50):
to for them to be willing tolook at what they don't do?
Well,I think you you said you lead
with it in a question. And thatis understanding that feedback
is a gift feedback is yourfriend, you know, I often will
will tell a manager or a leaderof people, that honest feedback
for your people is the greatestgift you can give them, it's
(05:14):
more valuable than theirpaycheck. Because if if the
performance isn't good, andyou're not sharing that, and
it's and it's not improvingtheir paycheck is at risk,
right, the paycheck potentiallygoes away. So that feedback is
the greatest gift you can givethem. So if that's true, why
would it not be the same? Forme? The analogy I was using is
(05:37):
it's like getting home, at theend of the day, and looking in
the mirror and seeing spinach inyour teeth, or noticing your
zipper was down or somethinglike that. Right? And the first
thing you think of is, oh, mygosh, how many people saw
that? Yeah. Why didn't someonetell me?
Right? Why didn't somebody tellme that that was there. So as
(05:58):
hard as it can be to hear that,right? When somebody goes, Hey,
you got something in your teeth,or hey, your zippers down? While
it's maybe potentiallyembarrassing at the beginning,
you're also grateful. That cool,now I fixed that. And if you
think of performance feedback,whether it's professional, hey,
you know, there's we've gotthese areas that we need to grow
(06:19):
and develop. Or sometimes it'spersonal, where it might be
behavioral, like, Hey, did younotice that you roll your eyes
in a meeting? And here's theimpact that that's having,
regardless of whether it'spersonal or professional. If you
think of it as spinach in yourteeth, it's uncomfortable to
hear. But what am I glad that'snot there anymore?
Yeah, I do want to tell you apersonal story. And this
(06:39):
happened to me years ago. Andfor those of you that don't know
me very well, I'm an incrediblyopinionated person. And of
course, my opinions are alwaysright. That's not to say that
someone can't change my opinion,but I have very strong opinions.
And generally speaking, I prettymuch stand by them. Well, about
25 years ago, early on in mycareer, I was in a meeting with
(07:00):
all of my peer group, we werewholesalers that worked for an
insurance company, we were in aroom talking about ideas about
how to generate more sales. Andwe were bouncing ideas around.
And a gentleman sitting next tome came out with an idea. And I
looked at him and I said, thatisn't going to work. That's a
horrible idea. And we kept on inthe meeting, afterwards, my boss
(07:21):
at the time, asked me to stay inthe in the room, everyone
laughed, and she said, you know,Mark 99% of the time you're spot
on with your thoughts and youropinions, but boy, you have
horrible delivery. And she said,you know, the first thing you
did with with so and so was totell him his idea was bad. And
(07:42):
she said there's ways to say itand ways to say it. And of
course, if someone told you youridea was bad, the first thing
it's gonna happen is you'regonna get defensive. Yeah, she
was 100% Spot on. And I can'ttell you how much I appreciated
that conversation. And to thisday, honest to goodness to this
day, there's not a week thatgoes by that I don't pause at
(08:03):
some point in time and thinkabout how I'm going to say
something, not necessarily whatI'm saying, but how I should say
it, it was the that was trulythe best, one of the best
feedback gifts I've ever gotten.
And so how does somebody ask forhonest feedback? So in your
work, if I were to come to youand say, Hey, I really need
(08:23):
feedback, how do you make sureyou get honest feedback. And
from WHO?
Well, humility plays a hugefactor into it. Just being able,
I hate to say it, but it's kindof a, it's one of the most
foundational, I don't know,facilitators or aspects of being
(08:44):
able to ask for feedback isreally preparing yourself. Yeah,
it's being genuine andauthentic. It's like, Hey, can
you help me? Can you? How am Ishowing up? What, give me your
honest feedback on that, on thatperformance? Or on that, you
know, on that meeting, or onthat presentation, that a
(09:05):
whatever it might or just in myperformance in general. So
humility plays a huge factor init, because I do, I do think
there are a lot of times wherepeople ask for feedback, but
they're really not there. Theyreally don't want to hear that
constructive feedback. They'rekind of fishing for compliments.
And so to your point, asking forhonest feedback, and it really,
(09:27):
I think, means preparingyourself, or whatever you might
hear, in fact, actually, this isMark, I learned this 20 years
and I coached this, I give thisto everybody that I work with.
It's the greatest line I everlearned. And I learned it in a
marriage class 20 years ago, andit stuck with me, I learned that
(09:47):
if I want Dana, my wife if Iwant her to tell me when she's
not happy, and I don't but I doyou know, like, I need to hear
that. You know what I mean? LikeI don't want to, I just want to
assume it's great, but I need toknow When she's not, so if I, if
I want to know, then anytime shetells me anything that is where
(10:08):
it might sting a little bitwhere it might, even frankly,
even if I don't agree with it,or if it's if it's raw, in my
mind is wrong, the greatestthing to say in that moment is,
thank you for telling me that,and then shut up, you don't have
to defend yourself, you don'thave to explain yourself, it's
just thank you for telling youthat, in fact, then take a pause
(10:30):
and say what else, because oftenthe first piece of feedback
someone gives you, it's kind oflike they're dipping a toe in
the water, they're not going totell you the the biggest issue
they have or the biggestopportunity that they see, most
of the time, they're going todip a toe in the water, see how
you take it. So if you just ifyou lead with if you if you
follow that up with thank youfor telling me that, what else
(10:52):
in their mind, they're like,Okay, that went well. Okay,
here's something else. Here'sthe next thing. And here's the
next thing. And you don't haveto respond to the feedback in
the moment, you don't have toanswer that you don't have to
have a plan. In fact, what Iwill then say to Dana very often
is okay, I don't know what to dowith that. But give me a couple
(11:12):
of days. Let me chew on it. Letme think about it. And I'll come
back with an answer or responseor some ideas. And I find my
answers are always better 24hours, 48 hours later, than they
would be in the moment where yousaid earlier, like the defenses
go up, and I just want toexplain it away or make it your
falter. So I think humility,creating safety in that that's
(11:35):
what that does that that line,thank you for telling me that
makes it safe for the person tonot only give me more feedback
in the moment, but then give meadditional feedback next time.
And I think if you if you if youjust really nailed those two
things, the humility and thesafety that you create, for
people to give you honestfeedback, I think you're you're
(11:58):
well on your way to Well, Ithink to getting better by just
having other people help you seeyour blind spots.
Yeah, I would agree. And I thinkthat feedback often needs to be
done at the time in which thingsare happening. And I'll give you
an example. Years ago, I did alot of presenting in front of
(12:18):
agents and our sales, our salesforce. And I had a boss who I
would consider a fantastic,fantastic presenter. And I asked
him to sit in the back of theroom on three or four separate
occasions and critique my publicspeaking ability. So I really
valued his feedback. And Itrusted him, I need and I also
needed the feedback exactly asit was happening. So not only
(12:42):
did he take notes, four pages ofnotes, and about an hour and a
half of mentorship later, Ireally valued that time. If
someone's in the workplace,Patrick, who should they tap on
the shoulder to give themfeedback? And what's the
appropriate setting or orsituation in which to receive
that feedback?
(13:02):
I think that's a, it's a greatquestion. And I think it it, I
don't know that one sizenecessarily fits all, if you
have an obvious mentor, someonethat you look up to,
particularly in the areas thatyou are trying to improve,
right. So to your point, publicspeaking, if there is someone in
(13:23):
the organization that is afantastic public speaker, that's
an obvious person to seek outand, you know, lead with if
they're an obvious mentor, butit doesn't necessarily even have
to be so don't let the fact thatyou don't have a strong
relationship with somebody keepyou from seeking them out. If if
they're strong in the area thatyou're that you're wanting to
(13:45):
grow and develop. But then it'sjust a matter of, again, showing
humility and openness andcommunicating that if it's not
somebody that you have arelationship with, and you just
have to make sure theyunderstand your humility and
your openness and yourwillingness to really want to
learn from you, you know, ifit's an obvious mentor, then the
relationship is alreadyestablished. But there are you
(14:08):
know, you can you can even lookoutside of mentors and people
who are strong in an area thatyou're looking to develop.
Sometimes there are already peergroups that you can plug into.
And that might look like youknow, for for next level leaders
in the organization, you knowthat how do we maybe that
already exists? There's a teamof next level leaders that meet
(14:29):
regularly and how do I plug intothat? Sometimes that doesn't
exist, but that doesn't mean youcan't start it. And it's just a
matter of pulling together theright people to say, hey, why
don't we coach each other? Whydon't we learn from each other?
Let's get together and talk. Butthe important part of that then
isn't when I'm with thesepeople, I'm going to um, you
(14:49):
know, it can't be from a placeof bravado, like, Alright, I
have to show up and make it seemlike I'm all together and I'm
killing it. It's Hey, how do youguys handle this? What are you
Do here's what I'm doing, whatfeedback do you have for me, and
that can be a safe place when ina peer group setting when you're
all coaching each other. So whenI think about inside the
(15:12):
organization, and then yourguess the last thing would be
your immediate supervisor,hopefully, if you have, if you
have a strong relationshipthere, seek that person out and
and just be specific, hey, likeMark the example you use, I want
to grow, I want to get better inmy ability to speak in the room.
(15:35):
So do me a favor, I know thatyou know, when we're in those
settings, watch for it, critiqueit, you can even get specific.
Watch my body language look forconfidence, listen for
inflection tell me is these arethe areas that I want to grow
in? And then what else am Imissing? So to me, those are
three obvious ones, within anorganization that you could seek
(15:57):
out probably today or this week,if you really wanted to find
somebody internally and get thatfeedback from
Sure. I've also found thatsometimes it's not just the way
we do things that I needfeedback. In my career, I've
seen a lot of people getpromoted to management
positions, who traditionallyweren't managers or had any type
(16:18):
of management training. That'snot to say they couldn't become
or weren't good managers. Butit's it's a skill set, I
believe, I believe there arethings that you need to learn.
And the longer you're in thatposition, the more you learn,
right, so like anything else. Sowith new managers, Patrick, I
don't want to take someone'sautonomy away, I still want them
to be themselves. I want them toincorporate any type of
(16:40):
feedback, but you've coached abunch of our new managers. So
give the audience two or threethings that that you could talk
to a new manager about, and howthey incorporate that into their
daily work. So that number one,you're not offending them. And
you're giving them feedback thatthey can use, like, how do you
how do you create that safespace? And and give me a little
(17:02):
bit of snippet of how you wouldprovide that feedback?
Tell me a little bit morefeedback? How I would coach a
manager or how a manager? I'mnot sure I fully understood the
question.
Sure. So I in my career, I'veworked with a lot of new
managers, people that might notnecessarily had any type of
management training, they didtheir job really well, the
department grew. And becausethey knew their job really well,
(17:24):
when they hired another personinto the department, they became
their manager, they reallydidn't know how to manage. And
so oftentimes, we want toprovide them management
coaching, and how to be aneffective manager. I don't want
to take their personality away.
I want them to incorporate someof this constructive criticism
or advice, but I also don't wantto clip their wings, so to
speak, how do you create thatsafe environment where you can
(17:46):
give feedback to all types ofdifferent personalities, and
make sure they're receiving itin which the manner in which
you're giving it?
Got it. So two things come tomind first, and it was great
when you said, right, I don'twant to clip their wings, I
don't want to I don't want to,you know, want to change their
personalities, I would even saynot only is that spot on. But
(18:11):
what you're finding thatemployees value more today than
ever is authenticity. So thatyou giving a manager give,
especially a new manager givinga new manager permission to be
themselves, and not necessarilytrying to emulate anybody else
or to I mean, certainly you can,you can watch a great leader and
(18:34):
see what she or he does. Butthere's still it's still
important, you can't be somebodyelse, you have to be you have to
embrace who you are. And youhave to be okay with with
showing that. So authenticitymeans being vulnerable with your
people. Recognizing that's not asign of weakness. It may have
(18:55):
been 1020 years ago. But I thinknow what employees value more
than almost anything else, rightup there with empathy is
authenticity. But the secondthing, to me, the second major
piece of advice for a newmanager is lead yourself first.
It's a major disconnect foremployees when my words and my
(19:17):
actions aren't aligned. I thinkeverybody can think of a leader
that they've worked for that.
Do as I say, not as I do, kindof
yeah, as I say not as I do, andand we don't respect those
people. Typically we followthose leaders out of compliance
right out of fear that if Idon't do what they say that I'm
(19:40):
going to get in trouble, butit's certainly not out of
individual accountability or ahigh level of respect. And so as
a new leader, sometimes there isthe pressure to to I think like
two things. One, there's there'seither the pressure to come in
and put my own stamp on things.
And again, lead yourself firstmake sure that that that You're
modeling the values, make surethat you're modeling that that
(20:02):
individual accountability thatyou're modeling, creating safety
for your people that so youcan't ask them to take feedback,
if you can't receive feedbackyourself, right, so you lead
yourself first, the other end ofthe spectrum, sometimes a new
leader will come in, and they'realmost like they want to be
friends with everybody. Yeah.
(20:24):
And that's, I'd argue that's ina different way. It's almost as,
as effective as the other end ofthe spectrum where you're coming
in, and you're just trying toput your stamp on everything. It
really comes down to buildingrelationships. But then not
being afraid to set a visionset. Of course, your people want
(20:45):
that from you. They want toknow, they want feedback from
you. But as I said, you alsoneed to make sure that you're
creating a space where you canreceive feedback from them.
Sure. And that made me think ofsomething I'm actually laughing
to myself. We all know thatperson that thinks they do
everything great. Right? Aperson that's just difficult to
(21:06):
give feedback to, and when yougive feedback to them, they
either don't accept it, they'renot humble enough to receive it,
or they don't believe it. Whenyou come across someone like
that, give us a couple pieces ofadvice.
Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you askedthat question. Because that
literally came up in aconversation with a founder and
(21:26):
CEO just two days ago, and Ifeel it comes up in so many
conversations, because you'reexactly right. I've got somebody
on my team, I need to give themfeedback. Sometimes it's again,
it might be on on the technicalaspects of the job, or it might
be a behavioral thing. And, andso I give that piece of advice.
We were talking earlier aboutbut it'd be great if they just
(21:49):
said thank you for telling methat what else but a lot of
times you get defensiveness andand or you get some kind of
resistance. And thatdefensiveness might show up, as,
you know, they might becomeargumentative. They might try to
make excuses for it, they mightthey might shut down, right?
They may, they might go quietand not say anything, they might
(22:12):
start crying. That happens.
These are very real things. Andso what I always advise, it's
such a great question, Mark.
What I always advise is, in thatmoment, pause the conversation
about whatever the piece offeedback was, right? So if I've
shut down, or I'm argumentativeor becoming defensive, or I'm
(22:34):
trying to make excuses or pointthe finger at somebody else, if
I'm in that place, and you keeptrying to now convince me
otherwise, right? You're you'retrying to you're, it's you're
screaming at a wall, right?
You're, you're you're meetingresistance. And so now you
ratchet up your intensity, and Iratchet up mine. And before you
know, it's spiraled out ofcontrol. So when you meet that
resistance, pause theconversation about the piece of
(22:55):
feedback. And instead, thisthese are gifts, I, I think it's
the greatest gift and one of thegreatest gifts that your
employees can give you in thatmoment, is it's an opportunity
to now spotlight the behavior.
So now you can say, okay, holdon a second, let's pause the
conversation about about youknow, the presentation or the
(23:17):
behavior or whatever it is. Weneed to talk about what's
happening right now. Right? Ineed you to stay open to
feedback. Like none of us, I usethis phrase myself, none of us
is fully baked, none of us knowseverything the day I think I
know, everything is like thebeginning of the end. So I need
(23:38):
you to stay open to feedback.
Because otherwise, you're notgoing to grow and and we're not
going to get better as a team oras an organization. And that's
gonna be that's gonna hold youback. Yeah. And so you're you're
not trying to pretend or ignoretheir defensiveness or whatever
the behavior is in the moment.
(24:00):
You're pausing the conversationand spotlighting it. And you're
just calling attention to it andthat alone? Well, a lot of times
a person doesn't realize thatthat's how they're responding.
Yeah. But spotlighting, it givesthem the opportunity to say,
Well, yeah, okay, you're right,or I know, but, but now you're
(24:22):
focused on the behavior. Andthat's a much, it's so much more
productive, to even if you neverget back to the feedback
conversation, like the originalpoint of the conversation,
spotlighting the behavior. Nowyou've that that's if you can
overcome that. That makes thenext piece of feedback that much
(24:43):
easier. And you know, if ithappens again, you could say,
hey, remember, we talked aboutthis? I need you. But the
importance there is that you asthe leader, you're not matching
the intent, the intensity of theother person. You're not getting
defensive or angry at theirresponse. You're calmly
spotlighting it and then havinga conversation about that.
(25:04):
Yeah, that's awesome. Oftentimesin my career, I've used sports
analogies. I'm not the biggestsports fan in the world. But the
analogy I would use with someonelike that is even your best
players, the best players in theworld, Tiger Woods. LeBron, they
have coaches. Yeah. And they'rewilling to accept the game,
right? So you went back to thebehavior? Yes, we're not talking
(25:26):
about your personality, on anoff the court on or off the
field, however you are, butyou're talking about your
ability. And if you truly wantto be the best athlete, or the
best manager or the best personin your role, you need feedback,
because even the best playersneed feedback. So that's kind of
where I go, I think we're sayingthe same thing is to focus on
the behavior, not necessarilythe personality, and hopefully
(25:48):
they'll get it.
Yeah, actually, there's JohnVogel, or one of one of your
leaders at brokers often says,make the problem the problem or
make the issue the issue and notthe person. And it's, it's, it's
simple and yet profound. It'slike, Hey, this is not personal.
But I think it's okay. You know,when you give me feedback, I
(26:10):
think it's natural for somebodyto become defensive. Because
none of us I mean, it's, it'sawkward, very few people are,
immediately go to that place ofthank you for telling me that
even when Dana tells me it, Ican still become defensive.
Sure, it's more of themindfulness, it's the reminder,
Hey, I can't go with my firstreaction. So it's okay. If
(26:32):
somebody becomes defensive.
That's a teachable moment, as Isaid, those are gifts. And the
irony is that a lot of timesthat that anticipated
defensiveness is why a leaderholds back from giving you
feedback. Whereas to me, like,embrace those poor behavior
moments, those are gifts, thoseare coaching opportunities to
(26:53):
that's how, that's how we growas a as a team, our relationship
grows when we have thatconversation and come through it
better on the other side of No,sir. I embrace those. And I
encourage managers to embrace itas well.
So getting back to balance, notburnout. Yes, if I want to
balance my career, and notburnout. Why do I need feedback?
(27:18):
That's a great question, too. Ithink so. To me, burnout comes
from, this is my opinion, when Ifeel like either I'm stuck, I'm
stuck. And I'm not growing. I'mnot progressing. I feel
overwhelmed. I feel overloaded.
I'm, I mean, a variety of ways.
(27:39):
And to me, I think it's almostwhere we started the
conversation, which is when I'min it, it's really hard for me
to see the whole picture I canwe all become very myopic, when
we're in chaos. And I think ofburnout as a form of chaos, or
it's professional chaos for me.
So when I'm in that place, youknow, if I could figure it out
(28:01):
myself, I would have I wouldn'tbe in that place. Yeah, I think
that's where you can seek out.
Sometimes it is, it's a it's aboss, it might be you know,
might be a spouse at home, itmight be a coach, but somebody
to whom you can say, here's whatI'm feeling like, I think it's
(28:21):
acknowledging this is where Iam. I don't like it now. What am
I missing? Or how did i How didI get here? Not so that I can
blame myself or blame somebodyelse but so that I can
understand what do I need to doto change it to fix it? So I
think just acknowledgingburnout, I think though, I've
(28:42):
never met anybody who's burntout and happy about it. Either,
right, it's a it's a place youend up that you didn't go
willingly it just kind ofhappened. So feedback can help
you figure out what do I need todo to get out of this?
(29:02):
Words of Wisdom by PatrickLyons, from culture by design?
The last question I asked everyguest it's Saturday morning, you
have no responsibilities you canbe with whom you want, you can
do what you want. Describe forme your balance Saturday
morning,my balance Saturday morning. So
that would be one of ideally,ideally balanced for me is
(29:27):
making sure that I get enoughtime with my with my family. My
kids, we've been blessed to havefive kids. I would say all five
of them are hilarious. They'rejust funny and and in different
and unique ways. So I can thinkof those like a Saturday morning
brunch at a restaurant wherethere's just laughter You know,
(29:50):
we're all poking fun at eachother. But with love and and you
It becomes, you know, like acompetition to see who can who
can top the last choke and sothere's just a lot of lack or
sometimes to the point of tears.
That's what, to me that's that'sthe counter to balance. That's
(30:12):
the counter to burnout. That'smy balance. And I feel like when
I don't get that, that I dostart to feel the burnout.
That's the one of the firstplaces I go as I need to spend
more time with my, my mundane ishilarious, too. So a lot of
laughter in our family.
Laughter always does the trick.
Amen. Yeah. Well, Patrick,culture by design, if you're
interested in employeeengagement, employee morale,
(30:33):
executive coaching, strategicplanning, you name it. It's
culture by design. And PatrickLyons. I can't thank you enough
for being on the show today.
Thanks again. And I hope youhave a really great week.
Thank you. You too. It was apleasure.
Thanks for listening. If youthink bounces is important as I
do at work and all throughoutyour life, help the show out by
(30:54):
subscribing and leaving a fivestar review following me on
social media. Or please sharethe podcast with someone you
think would appreciate it. Ifyou have comments or questions,
connect with me on LinkedIn andjoin the conversation there.
Thanks for sharing your timewith me today. And until next
time, this is Mark signing off.
You're listening to Balance, NotBurnout, a podcast helping
leaders rethink the speed oftheir business. And I'm your
host, Mark Williams. Join me asI explore the power of a more
intentional, balanced approachto leadership. Thanks for
listening.
Welcome to Balance, Not Burnout.
This is Mark Williams, and I amsuper excited for today's
(00:27):
episode. I've got a friend and acolleague and someone that we've
worked with now for about fiveor six years at brokers
International. Mr. Patrick Lyonsfrom culture by design. Good
morning, Patrick. Good morning,Mark. Thanks for having me. You
bet. So Brokers Internationalhave been working with you,
Patrick now for about four orfive years. And I don't know if
you remember, but we originallycontracted with you to help us
(00:48):
with our strategic plan. Andthat has morphed a lot. So if
you don't mind, sharing a littlebit about what you do and what
your expertise is in. Yeah, youbet. So I summarize what I do
into one word, and that isexecution. My job is to help my
clients, businesses executebetter. And I do that by working
with them in in three primaryareas. First is that strategic
(01:10):
alignment that you just talkedabout, which does include a
strategic plan, but it'sbroader, it's making sure that
we're having the rightconversations, and that that
leadership team is tightlyaligned around the plan. The
second area is on developingnext level leaders so that as a
leadership team, you can trustthe next level to carry the
(01:31):
torch to be able to execute thatstrategic plan. So it's
leadership development, it mightbe teamwork, it might be one on
one coaching. And then thatlast, that third area is
building culture by design,building, strong, high
performing culture. And thereason I play in those three
spaces is I've think we'vefigured out that that those are
the three things that you need,if you want to execute your
(01:54):
strategic plan as you needleadership alignment, any good
strong leaders at the nextlevel, and then you need people
who are willing to go above andbeyond the day to day to
execute. So that's what I do.
Awesome. And for the past 10years, Patrick has been working
with many organizations of allkinds of sizes. And today,
(02:14):
specifically, Patrick, I'd liketo talk a little bit about
seeking out input and coaching,which is exactly why I wanted
you on the show. So to sharewith everyone, like I said
before, we contracted withPatrick to do some strategic
planning. And once we got toknow Patrick, and realize all
that he could bring to theorganization, we actually
expanded that. And for the pastfour years, Patrick has helped
(02:36):
us, for example, do a employeesurvey every year, and not only
administer the survey, butadminister and coach us on what
to do with the results of thatsurvey, and how to communicate
those results to our employees.
And then what next steps andfollow up are involved. And that
has also led us to have Patrickdo some executive coaching for
(02:57):
us as well. So I thought Patrickwould be the perfect, perfect
guest to talk a little bit aboutseeking out input in coaching.
So I'd probably start offPatrick was saying what is what
do you think the benefits ofhaving an outside set of eyes
look at your organization?
That's a good question. I thinkI've learned through the years,
(03:19):
you know, even and this worksfor all of us, even myself, when
I'm immersed in something everyday.
It's hard to see it's hard tosee the whole picture. And maybe
the analogy that comes to mindis, you know, when I set out to
go to the gym or lose weight,and I'm doing the the daily
things every day, but I'mlooking in the same mirror. It's
(03:43):
hard to see that the cumulativechange, it's hard to see the
progress. And sometimes I havemy own sacred cows, right. When
I look at my organization, it'sit's hard to expand my thinking
beyond Well, this is just howwe've always done it or we do it
this way because it works. Sohaving that outside perspective
having like in the in the gymanalogy having a personal
(04:05):
trainer or someone who can ahelp you see the whole picture,
the bigger picture be helped yousee what other possibilities and
I think See, help help you seethe progress and encourage you
and help you through the theinevitable obstacles and the
challenges that you're going toyou're going to encounter
(04:27):
anytime you're trying to dosomething new.
I'll tell you it for mepersonally, I love feedback. I
believe feedback is a gift. Butsometimes it's really difficult
to hear. I would ask you withall the years that you have been
coaching and providing feedback.
It's really important forsomeone to understand their
deficits, but it's also tough tohear and it's tough to be honest
with ourselves. How do you getthat message across to someone
(04:50):
to for them to be willing tolook at what they don't do?
Well,I think you you said you lead
with it in a question. And thatis understanding that feedback
is a gift feedback is yourfriend, you know, I often will
will tell a manager or a leaderof people, that honest feedback
for your people is the greatestgift you can give them, it's
(05:14):
more valuable than theirpaycheck. Because if if the
performance isn't good, andyou're not sharing that, and
it's and it's not improvingtheir paycheck is at risk,
right, the paycheck potentiallygoes away. So that feedback is
the greatest gift you can givethem. So if that's true, why
would it not be the same? Forme? The analogy I was using is
(05:37):
it's like getting home, at theend of the day, and looking in
the mirror and seeing spinach inyour teeth, or noticing your
zipper was down or somethinglike that. Right? And the first
thing you think of is, oh, mygosh, how many people saw
that? Yeah. Why didn't someonetell me?
Right? Why didn't somebody tellme that that was there. So as
(05:58):
hard as it can be to hear that,right? When somebody goes, Hey,
you got something in your teeth,or hey, your zippers down? While
it's maybe potentiallyembarrassing at the beginning,
you're also grateful. That cool,now I fixed that. And if you
think of performance feedback,whether it's professional, hey,
you know, there's we've gotthese areas that we need to grow
(06:19):
and develop. Or sometimes it'spersonal, where it might be
behavioral, like, Hey, did younotice that you roll your eyes
in a meeting? And here's theimpact that that's having,
regardless of whether it'spersonal or professional. If you
think of it as spinach in yourteeth, it's uncomfortable to
hear. But what am I glad that'snot there anymore?
Yeah, I do want to tell you apersonal story. And this
(06:39):
happened to me years ago. Andfor those of you that don't know
me very well, I'm an incrediblyopinionated person. And of
course, my opinions are alwaysright. That's not to say that
someone can't change my opinion,but I have very strong opinions.
And generally speaking, I prettymuch stand by them. Well, about
25 years ago, early on in mycareer, I was in a meeting with
(07:00):
all of my peer group, we werewholesalers that worked for an
insurance company, we were in aroom talking about ideas about
how to generate more sales. Andwe were bouncing ideas around.
And a gentleman sitting next tome came out with an idea. And I
looked at him and I said, thatisn't going to work. That's a
horrible idea. And we kept on inthe meeting, afterwards, my boss
(07:21):
at the time, asked me to stay inthe in the room, everyone
laughed, and she said, you know,Mark 99% of the time you're spot
on with your thoughts and youropinions, but boy, you have
horrible delivery. And she said,you know, the first thing you
did with with so and so was totell him his idea was bad. And
(07:42):
she said there's ways to say itand ways to say it. And of
course, if someone told you youridea was bad, the first thing
it's gonna happen is you'regonna get defensive. Yeah, she
was 100% Spot on. And I can'ttell you how much I appreciated
that conversation. And to thisday, honest to goodness to this
day, there's not a week thatgoes by that I don't pause at
(08:03):
some point in time and thinkabout how I'm going to say
something, not necessarily whatI'm saying, but how I should say
it, it was the that was trulythe best, one of the best
feedback gifts I've ever gotten.
And so how does somebody ask forhonest feedback? So in your
work, if I were to come to youand say, Hey, I really need
(08:23):
feedback, how do you make sureyou get honest feedback. And
from WHO?
Well, humility plays a hugefactor into it. Just being able,
I hate to say it, but it's kindof a, it's one of the most
foundational, I don't know,facilitators or aspects of being
(08:44):
able to ask for feedback isreally preparing yourself. Yeah,
it's being genuine andauthentic. It's like, Hey, can
you help me? Can you? How am Ishowing up? What, give me your
honest feedback on that, on thatperformance? Or on that, you
know, on that meeting, or onthat presentation, that a
(09:05):
whatever it might or just in myperformance in general. So
humility plays a huge factor init, because I do, I do think
there are a lot of times wherepeople ask for feedback, but
they're really not there. Theyreally don't want to hear that
constructive feedback. They'rekind of fishing for compliments.
And so to your point, asking forhonest feedback, and it really,
(09:27):
I think, means preparingyourself, or whatever you might
hear, in fact, actually, this isMark, I learned this 20 years
and I coached this, I give thisto everybody that I work with.
It's the greatest line I everlearned. And I learned it in a
marriage class 20 years ago, andit stuck with me, I learned that
(09:47):
if I want Dana, my wife if Iwant her to tell me when she's
not happy, and I don't but I doyou know, like, I need to hear
that. You know what I mean? LikeI don't want to, I just want to
assume it's great, but I need toknow When she's not, so if I, if
I want to know, then anytime shetells me anything that is where
(10:08):
it might sting a little bitwhere it might, even frankly,
even if I don't agree with it,or if it's if it's raw, in my
mind is wrong, the greatestthing to say in that moment is,
thank you for telling me that,and then shut up, you don't have
to defend yourself, you don'thave to explain yourself, it's
just thank you for telling youthat, in fact, then take a pause
(10:30):
and say what else, because oftenthe first piece of feedback
someone gives you, it's kind oflike they're dipping a toe in
the water, they're not going totell you the the biggest issue
they have or the biggestopportunity that they see, most
of the time, they're going todip a toe in the water, see how
you take it. So if you just ifyou lead with if you if you
follow that up with thank youfor telling me that, what else
(10:52):
in their mind, they're like,Okay, that went well. Okay,
here's something else. Here'sthe next thing. And here's the
next thing. And you don't haveto respond to the feedback in
the moment, you don't have toanswer that you don't have to
have a plan. In fact, what Iwill then say to Dana very often
is okay, I don't know what to dowith that. But give me a couple
(11:12):
of days. Let me chew on it. Letme think about it. And I'll come
back with an answer or responseor some ideas. And I find my
answers are always better 24hours, 48 hours later, than they
would be in the moment where yousaid earlier, like the defenses
go up, and I just want toexplain it away or make it your
falter. So I think humility,creating safety in that that's
(11:35):
what that does that that line,thank you for telling me that
makes it safe for the person tonot only give me more feedback
in the moment, but then give meadditional feedback next time.
And I think if you if you if youjust really nailed those two
things, the humility and thesafety that you create, for
people to give you honestfeedback, I think you're you're
(11:58):
well on your way to Well, Ithink to getting better by just
having other people help you seeyour blind spots.
Yeah, I would agree. And I thinkthat feedback often needs to be
done at the time in which thingsare happening. And I'll give you
an example. Years ago, I did alot of presenting in front of
(12:18):
agents and our sales, our salesforce. And I had a boss who I
would consider a fantastic,fantastic presenter. And I asked
him to sit in the back of theroom on three or four separate
occasions and critique my publicspeaking ability. So I really
valued his feedback. And Itrusted him, I need and I also
needed the feedback exactly asit was happening. So not only
(12:42):
did he take notes, four pages ofnotes, and about an hour and a
half of mentorship later, Ireally valued that time. If
someone's in the workplace,Patrick, who should they tap on
the shoulder to give themfeedback? And what's the
appropriate setting or orsituation in which to receive
that feedback?
(13:02):
I think that's a, it's a greatquestion. And I think it it, I
don't know that one sizenecessarily fits all, if you
have an obvious mentor, someonethat you look up to,
particularly in the areas thatyou are trying to improve,
right. So to your point, publicspeaking, if there is someone in
(13:23):
the organization that is afantastic public speaker, that's
an obvious person to seek outand, you know, lead with if
they're an obvious mentor, butit doesn't necessarily even have
to be so don't let the fact thatyou don't have a strong
relationship with somebody keepyou from seeking them out. If if
they're strong in the area thatyou're that you're wanting to
(13:45):
grow and develop. But then it'sjust a matter of, again, showing
humility and openness andcommunicating that if it's not
somebody that you have arelationship with, and you just
have to make sure theyunderstand your humility and
your openness and yourwillingness to really want to
learn from you, you know, ifit's an obvious mentor, then the
relationship is alreadyestablished. But there are you
(14:08):
know, you can you can even lookoutside of mentors and people
who are strong in an area thatyou're looking to develop.
Sometimes there are already peergroups that you can plug into.
And that might look like youknow, for for next level leaders
in the organization, you knowthat how do we maybe that
already exists? There's a teamof next level leaders that meet
(14:29):
regularly and how do I plug intothat? Sometimes that doesn't
exist, but that doesn't mean youcan't start it. And it's just a
matter of pulling together theright people to say, hey, why
don't we coach each other? Whydon't we learn from each other?
Let's get together and talk. Butthe important part of that then
isn't when I'm with thesepeople, I'm going to um, you
(14:49):
know, it can't be from a placeof bravado, like, Alright, I
have to show up and make it seemlike I'm all together and I'm
killing it. It's Hey, how do youguys handle this? What are you
Do here's what I'm doing, whatfeedback do you have for me, and
that can be a safe place when ina peer group setting when you're
all coaching each other. So whenI think about inside the
(15:12):
organization, and then yourguess the last thing would be
your immediate supervisor,hopefully, if you have, if you
have a strong relationshipthere, seek that person out and
and just be specific, hey, likeMark the example you use, I want
to grow, I want to get better inmy ability to speak in the room.
(15:35):
So do me a favor, I know thatyou know, when we're in those
settings, watch for it, critiqueit, you can even get specific.
Watch my body language look forconfidence, listen for
inflection tell me is these arethe areas that I want to grow
in? And then what else am Imissing? So to me, those are
three obvious ones, within anorganization that you could seek
(15:57):
out probably today or this week,if you really wanted to find
somebody internally and get thatfeedback from
Sure. I've also found thatsometimes it's not just the way
we do things that I needfeedback. In my career, I've
seen a lot of people getpromoted to management
positions, who traditionallyweren't managers or had any type
(16:18):
of management training. That'snot to say they couldn't become
or weren't good managers. Butit's it's a skill set, I
believe, I believe there arethings that you need to learn.
And the longer you're in thatposition, the more you learn,
right, so like anything else. Sowith new managers, Patrick, I
don't want to take someone'sautonomy away, I still want them
to be themselves. I want them toincorporate any type of
(16:40):
feedback, but you've coached abunch of our new managers. So
give the audience two or threethings that that you could talk
to a new manager about, and howthey incorporate that into their
daily work. So that number one,you're not offending them. And
you're giving them feedback thatthey can use, like, how do you
how do you create that safespace? And and give me a little
(17:02):
bit of snippet of how you wouldprovide that feedback?
Tell me a little bit morefeedback? How I would coach a
manager or how a manager? I'mnot sure I fully understood the
question.
Sure. So I in my career, I'veworked with a lot of new
managers, people that might notnecessarily had any type of
management training, they didtheir job really well, the
department grew. And becausethey knew their job really well,
(17:24):
when they hired another personinto the department, they became
their manager, they reallydidn't know how to manage. And
so oftentimes, we want toprovide them management
coaching, and how to be aneffective manager. I don't want
to take their personality away.
I want them to incorporate someof this constructive criticism
or advice, but I also don't wantto clip their wings, so to
speak, how do you create thatsafe environment where you can
(17:46):
give feedback to all types ofdifferent personalities, and
make sure they're receiving itin which the manner in which
you're giving it?
Got it. So two things come tomind first, and it was great
when you said, right, I don'twant to clip their wings, I
don't want to I don't want to,you know, want to change their
personalities, I would even saynot only is that spot on. But
(18:11):
what you're finding thatemployees value more today than
ever is authenticity. So thatyou giving a manager give,
especially a new manager givinga new manager permission to be
themselves, and not necessarilytrying to emulate anybody else
or to I mean, certainly you can,you can watch a great leader and
(18:34):
see what she or he does. Butthere's still it's still
important, you can't be somebodyelse, you have to be you have to
embrace who you are. And youhave to be okay with with
showing that. So authenticitymeans being vulnerable with your
people. Recognizing that's not asign of weakness. It may have
(18:55):
been 1020 years ago. But I thinknow what employees value more
than almost anything else, rightup there with empathy is
authenticity. But the secondthing, to me, the second major
piece of advice for a newmanager is lead yourself first.
It's a major disconnect foremployees when my words and my
(19:17):
actions aren't aligned. I thinkeverybody can think of a leader
that they've worked for that.
Do as I say, not as I do, kindof
yeah, as I say not as I do, andand we don't respect those
people. Typically we followthose leaders out of compliance
right out of fear that if Idon't do what they say that I'm
(19:40):
going to get in trouble, butit's certainly not out of
individual accountability or ahigh level of respect. And so as
a new leader, sometimes there isthe pressure to to I think like
two things. One, there's there'seither the pressure to come in
and put my own stamp on things.
And again, lead yourself firstmake sure that that that You're
modeling the values, make surethat you're modeling that that
(20:02):
individual accountability thatyou're modeling, creating safety
for your people that so youcan't ask them to take feedback,
if you can't receive feedbackyourself, right, so you lead
yourself first, the other end ofthe spectrum, sometimes a new
leader will come in, and they'realmost like they want to be
friends with everybody. Yeah.
(20:24):
And that's, I'd argue that's ina different way. It's almost as,
as effective as the other end ofthe spectrum where you're coming
in, and you're just trying toput your stamp on everything. It
really comes down to buildingrelationships. But then not
being afraid to set a visionset. Of course, your people want
(20:45):
that from you. They want toknow, they want feedback from
you. But as I said, you alsoneed to make sure that you're
creating a space where you canreceive feedback from them.
Sure. And that made me think ofsomething I'm actually laughing
to myself. We all know thatperson that thinks they do
everything great. Right? Aperson that's just difficult to
(21:06):
give feedback to, and when yougive feedback to them, they
either don't accept it, they'renot humble enough to receive it,
or they don't believe it. Whenyou come across someone like
that, give us a couple pieces ofadvice.
Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you askedthat question. Because that
literally came up in aconversation with a founder and
(21:26):
CEO just two days ago, and Ifeel it comes up in so many
conversations, because you'reexactly right. I've got somebody
on my team, I need to give themfeedback. Sometimes it's again,
it might be on on the technicalaspects of the job, or it might
be a behavioral thing. And, andso I give that piece of advice.
We were talking earlier aboutbut it'd be great if they just
(21:49):
said thank you for telling methat what else but a lot of
times you get defensiveness andand or you get some kind of
resistance. And thatdefensiveness might show up, as,
you know, they might becomeargumentative. They might try to
make excuses for it, they mightthey might shut down, right?
They may, they might go quietand not say anything, they might
(22:12):
start crying. That happens.
These are very real things. Andso what I always advise, it's
such a great question, Mark.
What I always advise is, in thatmoment, pause the conversation
about whatever the piece offeedback was, right? So if I've
shut down, or I'm argumentativeor becoming defensive, or I'm
(22:34):
trying to make excuses or pointthe finger at somebody else, if
I'm in that place, and you keeptrying to now convince me
otherwise, right? You're you'retrying to you're, it's you're
screaming at a wall, right?
You're, you're you're meetingresistance. And so now you
ratchet up your intensity, and Iratchet up mine. And before you
know, it's spiraled out ofcontrol. So when you meet that
resistance, pause theconversation about the piece of
(22:55):
feedback. And instead, thisthese are gifts, I, I think it's
the greatest gift and one of thegreatest gifts that your
employees can give you in thatmoment, is it's an opportunity
to now spotlight the behavior.
So now you can say, okay, holdon a second, let's pause the
conversation about about youknow, the presentation or the
(23:17):
behavior or whatever it is. Weneed to talk about what's
happening right now. Right? Ineed you to stay open to
feedback. Like none of us, I usethis phrase myself, none of us
is fully baked, none of us knowseverything the day I think I
know, everything is like thebeginning of the end. So I need
(23:38):
you to stay open to feedback.
Because otherwise, you're notgoing to grow and and we're not
going to get better as a team oras an organization. And that's
gonna be that's gonna hold youback. Yeah. And so you're you're
not trying to pretend or ignoretheir defensiveness or whatever
the behavior is in the moment.
(24:00):
You're pausing the conversationand spotlighting it. And you're
just calling attention to it andthat alone? Well, a lot of times
a person doesn't realize thatthat's how they're responding.
Yeah. But spotlighting, it givesthem the opportunity to say,
Well, yeah, okay, you're right,or I know, but, but now you're
(24:22):
focused on the behavior. Andthat's a much, it's so much more
productive, to even if you neverget back to the feedback
conversation, like the originalpoint of the conversation,
spotlighting the behavior. Nowyou've that that's if you can
overcome that. That makes thenext piece of feedback that much
(24:43):
easier. And you know, if ithappens again, you could say,
hey, remember, we talked aboutthis? I need you. But the
importance there is that you asthe leader, you're not matching
the intent, the intensity of theother person. You're not getting
defensive or angry at theirresponse. You're calmly
spotlighting it and then havinga conversation about that.
(25:04):
Yeah, that's awesome. Oftentimesin my career, I've used sports
analogies. I'm not the biggestsports fan in the world. But the
analogy I would use with someonelike that is even your best
players, the best players in theworld, Tiger Woods. LeBron, they
have coaches. Yeah. And they'rewilling to accept the game,
right? So you went back to thebehavior? Yes, we're not talking
(25:26):
about your personality, on anoff the court on or off the
field, however you are, butyou're talking about your
ability. And if you truly wantto be the best athlete, or the
best manager or the best personin your role, you need feedback,
because even the best playersneed feedback. So that's kind of
where I go, I think we're sayingthe same thing is to focus on
the behavior, not necessarilythe personality, and hopefully
(25:48):
they'll get it.
Yeah, actually, there's JohnVogel, or one of one of your
leaders at brokers often says,make the problem the problem or
make the issue the issue and notthe person. And it's, it's, it's
simple and yet profound. It'slike, Hey, this is not personal.
But I think it's okay. You know,when you give me feedback, I
(26:10):
think it's natural for somebodyto become defensive. Because
none of us I mean, it's, it'sawkward, very few people are,
immediately go to that place ofthank you for telling me that
even when Dana tells me it, Ican still become defensive.
Sure, it's more of themindfulness, it's the reminder,
Hey, I can't go with my firstreaction. So it's okay. If
(26:32):
somebody becomes defensive.
That's a teachable moment, as Isaid, those are gifts. And the
irony is that a lot of timesthat that anticipated
defensiveness is why a leaderholds back from giving you
feedback. Whereas to me, like,embrace those poor behavior
moments, those are gifts, thoseare coaching opportunities to
(26:53):
that's how, that's how we growas a as a team, our relationship
grows when we have thatconversation and come through it
better on the other side of No,sir. I embrace those. And I
encourage managers to embrace itas well.
So getting back to balance, notburnout. Yes, if I want to
balance my career, and notburnout. Why do I need feedback?
(27:18):
That's a great question, too. Ithink so. To me, burnout comes
from, this is my opinion, when Ifeel like either I'm stuck, I'm
stuck. And I'm not growing. I'mnot progressing. I feel
overwhelmed. I feel overloaded.
I'm, I mean, a variety of ways.
(27:39):
And to me, I think it's almostwhere we started the
conversation, which is when I'min it, it's really hard for me
to see the whole picture I canwe all become very myopic, when
we're in chaos. And I think ofburnout as a form of chaos, or
it's professional chaos for me.
So when I'm in that place, youknow, if I could figure it out
(28:01):
myself, I would have I wouldn'tbe in that place. Yeah, I think
that's where you can seek out.
Sometimes it is, it's a it's aboss, it might be you know,
might be a spouse at home, itmight be a coach, but somebody
to whom you can say, here's whatI'm feeling like, I think it's
(28:21):
acknowledging this is where Iam. I don't like it now. What am
I missing? Or how did i How didI get here? Not so that I can
blame myself or blame somebodyelse but so that I can
understand what do I need to doto change it to fix it? So I
think just acknowledgingburnout, I think though, I've
(28:42):
never met anybody who's burntout and happy about it. Either,
right, it's a it's a place youend up that you didn't go
willingly it just kind ofhappened. So feedback can help
you figure out what do I need todo to get out of this?
(29:02):
Words of Wisdom by PatrickLyons, from culture by design?
The last question I asked everyguest it's Saturday morning, you
have no responsibilities you canbe with whom you want, you can
do what you want. Describe forme your balance Saturday
morning,my balance Saturday morning. So
that would be one of ideally,ideally balanced for me is
(29:27):
making sure that I get enoughtime with my with my family. My
kids, we've been blessed to havefive kids. I would say all five
of them are hilarious. They'rejust funny and and in different
and unique ways. So I can thinkof those like a Saturday morning
brunch at a restaurant wherethere's just laughter You know,
(29:50):
we're all poking fun at eachother. But with love and and you
It becomes, you know, like acompetition to see who can who
can top the last choke and sothere's just a lot of lack or
sometimes to the point of tears.
That's what, to me that's that'sthe counter to balance. That's
(30:12):
the counter to burnout. That'smy balance. And I feel like when
I don't get that, that I dostart to feel the burnout.
That's the one of the firstplaces I go as I need to spend
more time with my, my mundane ishilarious, too. So a lot of
laughter in our family.
Laughter always does the trick.
Amen. Yeah. Well, Patrick,culture by design, if you're
interested in employeeengagement, employee morale,
(30:33):
executive coaching, strategicplanning, you name it. It's
culture by design. And PatrickLyons. I can't thank you enough
for being on the show today.
Thanks again. And I hope youhave a really great week.
Thank you. You too. It was apleasure.
Thanks for listening. If youthink bounces is important as I
do at work and all throughoutyour life, help the show out by
(30:54):
subscribing and leaving a fivestar review following me on
social media. Or please sharethe podcast with someone you
think would appreciate it. Ifyou have comments or questions,
connect with me on LinkedIn andjoin the conversation there.
Thanks for sharing your timewith me today. And until next
time, this is Mark signing off.
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