June 10, 2025 • 62 mins
What drives a father to commit the unthinkable? When Travis Decker allegedly killed his three young daughters and disappeared into the wilderness, media coverage quickly blamed "system failures" – but is that the whole story?
Three veterans dive deep into this heartbreaking case, challenging simplified narratives that potentially harm the veteran community. They untangle the critical distinction between PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder, explaining why conflating these conditions does a disservice to everyone struggling with mental health. With raw honesty, they share personal experiences navigating VA healthcare, revealing both its flaws and its improvements over the years.
The conversation takes an unflinching look at personal responsibility in mental health treatment. While acknowledging systemic challenges, they push back against the notion that diagnoses predetermine violent behavior or that "the system" bears all responsibility when individuals choose not to engage with available resources. Their firsthand experiences illuminate the reality that seeking help requires persistence but remains possible.
Most powerfully, these veterans confront the harmful stereotype that portrays all former service members as damaged "ticking time bombs." This narrative not only stigmatizes the veteran community but obscures the complex human factors behind tragedies like the Decker case. Their perspective reminds us that mental health exists at the intersection of systems, circumstances, and individual choices.
Whether you're a veteran, someone supporting a veteran, or anyone interested in the complexities of mental healthcare, this episode offers valuable insights into how we might better support those struggling while maintaining the nuance these difficult conversations demand. Reach out if you're struggling – these veterans remind us that connection saves lives.
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Dom
The Scuttlebutt Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
so scuttlebutt podcast that's hermes, that's
morpheus and then this new guy,dom dom.
Nice to meet you nice to seeyou on here.
I wanted you to be on a longtime ago, just yourself, because
scuttlebutt introduced and dudeyou rock.
(00:42):
You're a scholar from acrossthe atlantic, the uk right, do
you guys say, mate?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
or is that australia no, we say mate, we say we say
mate okay, well, you guys alsouse this.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay, you guys fluently use the c-u-n-t word
too, and that that's that.
That's more harsher than themate in my my opinion yeah, it's
not.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's not something you typically would call
somebody if you were friendswith them, like it's more of an
exclamation of annoyance thananything else, although actually
, no, to be fair, it can bequite a friendly thing, all
right I love this guy.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I'm over here, this, this, this guy Dom over here,
this guy is awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
You big, lovable cunt Exactly Sick cunt.
You Sick cunt.
A well executed cunt Is likepeak comedy Music to the ears.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
We're off to a strange start already, boys.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So one thing I gotta make it clear the listeners this
is Dom, he's from UK, hisaccent is thick, so please
beware.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But the guy is a scholar.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Oh yeah, it's, it's, it's going to, it's going to be
tough.
People are going to be like,yeah, but then they're going to
hear the CU and T word, you knowand they're like oh yeah, you
know yeah, yeah, yeah, thatguy's okay, but you've been
published four times right thatis a um okay.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Well, there's a story behind that all right go for it
, dom, let's, let's.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I just want to introduce you because a lot of
people know the scuttlebutt yeah, I'm just a I'm just a heavily
involved outside observer.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That's what I am.
Um, but the, the four timespublished thing on my on my
profile is literally just, uh,referring to the fact that when
I was in school they publishedme in a few books, um, just with
little short stories I wrotefor competitions and things.
Unfortunately I'm not a properpublished author.
I'd love to be one day, but, um, that's why I had in the,
(02:48):
that's why I hadn't in the biofor a while like four-time
published author, technically soyeah, we'll get.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
We'll get that one day we'll get that we'll get
that one day.
We'll get that one day oh, okay,all right, but I ask you guys
because, man, I tell you whatI'm, that uh, that pool Patreon
party of your guys's Twitter andman, it's just, it was like, oh
God, it's blown up every twominutes for you know, certain
times of day, and I'm like gosh,I have to quiet this down
(03:16):
because I'm at work, I'm like,and so just recently I was just
like, okay, I'm going to, Ithink it's time, I'm going to
ask the boys and did full sendagain and you guys were like
I'll be there.
But so I thank you guys.
Hermes Morpheus, you're finallyon.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Hey, here we are.
You asked for me by name.
I show up.
That's what I told my wife.
Normally I would be like I canthis weekend, but when I, when
you ask by name, like how areyou gonna say no?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
yeah, you make it, and when it's nick nonetheless,
you know exactly, with the bigold stick we will show up for
him well, morpheus, I meanhermes.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How many times I've asked that guy to get on and
he's like oh, I'm busy, oh blah,blah now he's here, so again I
got my, he's busy he's busytalking to me
Speaker 3 (04:11):
usually I know, I know, he's got, he's got, he's
got more important things yeah,yeah, I'm starting you've
outshined hermes, so that's agood thing in my book.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But hermes, that's my bud my bud hermes, you're my
buddy, you know I can talk thatshit I can't wait to come get a
beer with you, bro.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But uh, yeah, it's not that hard to outshine me
more if it's okay especiallywith your chaotic energy.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I don't know about that okay.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So I'm doing this story because it hits a lot.
It's a lot on, well, the storyof travis decker.
Don't really want to put himout there, don't really want to
state what he did.
A lot of people in the worldknow what he, knows what he did.
But one of the things I want toemphasize on in this episode is
(05:07):
, uh, which is a lot differentthan any other episode I've done
was basically the systems.
Either you're listening topeople, uh, blaming the court,
the judge, then the mentalhealth, you know the va system
or the military system, becauseapparently the dude was still in
the military.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
He just went awol or didn't show up and he was gonna
get reprimanded yeah, yeah yeah,he was yeah, at the time he was
in the process of gettingseparated out for not showing up
to drills correct.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So that is that a wall, is that malingering?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
is that both or what I think it'd be okay wait, um,
before we continue, you're gonnahave to uh explain a few of
these terms to me, because I'mnot entirely familiar with the
us military and and terminology.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So we got you dumb, okay, so so he was supposed to
show up for his duty thatweekend, or multiple weekends,
and he did not show up.
The higher-ups were in themiddle or in the process, which
it takes probably six months toa year to get in the National
(06:21):
Guard.
Since it's a weekend warriorthing Don't hate me guys, that's
just how it is, Listeners, thatis.
And basically he was under.
He was going to be notcourt-martialed but basically
reprimanded for lack of dutiesand lack of showing up.
(06:42):
So AWOL it'sOL, what is it Away?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
without leave.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, absent yeah absent away without leave.
Yes, and then malingering isjust somebody that's in and
around just collecting apaycheck and doing whatever they
want.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, malingering is like faking a medical condition
or something Like trying to saylike oh, like you know.
I broke my arm and I can't dowork even though you didn't
actually break your arms.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, or you broke your arm and it was like
10 years ago and you, oh I, haveresidual pain and, like you
said, I can't do there's alwaysan excuse.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's a long, long arm break, fucking 10 years.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
It's always like an excuse, basically the simple
version is like I'm sick, I needto go home for the day, and
then you can see him at the bar.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, you're like wait a minute.
Yes, yes, yes, does thatexplain Dom In layman's terms.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yes, it does.
I'm just trying to get layman'sterms Okay, okay.
I get that.
You said God as well, just doyou mean national guard?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
yeah, okay, all right .
And to delineate that, likenick was saying with uh, weekend
warriors is the national guard?
Is yes, they're basicallycivilians and every like two
weeks out of the year, or everya month out of the year,
whatever their drill regiment is, um, every so often they have
to show up and put the uniformon and do whatever it is that
they're drilling for, unlike theactive duty that it's doing
(08:08):
that every day and it's kind oflike the opposite two weeks.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
It's kind of like, uh , the national guard's, kind of
like the reserves, except theyget activated by their
individual state to deal withlike state things rather than
like the reserve which isactivated by like the president
to go do stuff.
The national guard is like if atornado hits really bad
somewhere, they send thenational guard to help out.
You know?
I mean, so their army, like itis the army, but it's like, it's
kind of like a offset of thereserves, yeah, yeah speaking of
(08:32):
like, because we have a.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
We have a similar thing here, like we have the
army reserves here who getcalled in when sort of national
disasters happen.
So, okay, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah okay I'm with you.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It's like the state militias, basically, if that
makes sense they're showing upto LA right now for those riots.
I knew Hermes was going to saythat dude, I was reading about
that second amendment guy, herewe go well, lately third
amendment is like really reallytrending now oh yeah, I wonder
(09:03):
why that is abolish the third ifthey're cold, the Third If
they're cold if you're cold,they're cold.
Let them inside.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Is that the no soldiers being courted in?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, and Morpheus and Theron will not let it go.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
They will not let this die.
Joke about abolishing the ThirdAmendment.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Right 1776, that's when they had all that stuff,
alright.
So the coward Travis Deckerright, who allegedly zip, tied
his three baby girls andsuffocated them to.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Gosh, I say allegedly because don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
But, dude, it's like the believed cause of death is
asphyxiation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And before they found the babygirls, mom said he had it in his
heart that he would never hurtthe girls.
That's before they found them.
You know past, but I see thosegirls and I have three girls
myself and I'm just like fuckingcoward man who would do
(10:03):
something like that.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Well, they were what too?
It was like 9, 8, and 5 orsomething.
Yeah, 9, 8, and 5.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, 9, 8, 5.
Beautiful little girls Tookafter their mother, obviously,
(10:31):
but with that, there's a lot ofyou know just things said on
social media, whether it's youknow systems and courts, va, not
va.
Just I would say what militarymental health?
Yeah, he, there's claims of himhaving ptsd, but when you look
more into it, he had bpd, whichis borderline personality
disorder, which I work with alot of people that have that,
and I tell you what PTSD overanything does not make you want
(10:56):
to kill somebody, dude.
I'm just saying so, if I standcorrected and understand my
diagnosis borderline personalitydisorder.
They said that he was verynarcissistic.
That is a true underlying youknow what is it.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I noticed the reports also don't say what type of
borderline personality disorderhe was diagnosed with either.
It doesn't say if it was liketype 1 or 2, which makes a
difference.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, narcissistic, would that be type one?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
well that narcissistic yeah, bipolar one
and two have differentdiagnostic criteria, but bpd
doesn't have two separatecriteria.
Narcissistic narcissism is notnecessarily a trait of bpd.
It can be a trait of bpd, butit's not.
It's not one that comes underthe list of diagnostic criteria.
If he had narcissistic traits,he would have come under
(11:50):
narcissistic personalitydisorder, which is quite a
different thing.
Um, but bpd is, I think.
I think I've researched a lotabout.
I did a little universitycourse on like mental health and
madness and things like thatand BPD is a.
Well, it's a personalitydisorder, right?
So it's a, it's a.
(12:11):
It's a.
It's a disorder which sort ofis characterized by radical
confusion of identity, um,suicidal intentions and ideation
, and a extreme emotional, um,extreme emotional outbursts as
(12:31):
well, and also an incrediblypronounced fear of abandonment,
which manifests itself in manydifferent ways.
So if he was suffering from bpd, there there's a, there's a
certain case to be made for it.
A lot of people who have BPDoften engage in violent and
reckless activity, they engagein substance abuse, they're
(12:56):
frequently homeless and it'sactually a really difficult
thing to deal with because it'ssuch a complicated, complicated
mental health disorder that wedon't actually know much about,
because the people who sufferfrom bbd.
They they don't often.
Well, I mean, they often killthemselves, that they often
because they because, becausethey feel so bad, because their
(13:17):
brain is so not broken, buttheir brain is disordered.
They, yeah, I think it's one ofthe.
It's one of the only DSM-5mental health recognized
conditions which has suicide asa symptom, not just a
complication.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Are you just regurgitating this right now?
That was real impressive.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, that's what I said, damn Dom.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Are you reading something or are you just
regurgitating that that?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
was a lot.
No, no, that's, that'sregurgitative um, that is.
I learned that, uh, I thinkit's.
I've got family members whohave bpd um and it's, it's a.
It's quite a quite a terriblething to observe um and also
they have, they're very prone tointense anger as well, intense
(14:11):
angry outbursts, and they oftenhave.
Imagine a toddler having atemper tantrum.
Now, imagine that in a 25 yearold that's someone who suffers
from BPD has frequent angeroutbursts.
It's a very complicated mentaldisorder it would surprise me.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
BPD also is more into females than males too yes, it
is, it's, very difficult todiagnose, diagnose males, but I
tell you what man working withpeople who have bpd, uh, it's
all about them, them, them, them.
And this is a pure example of I, I think, think, what we're
(15:00):
dealing with and what we'regoing to talk about, dude.
So, um, I appreciate that, dom,dude, I swear.
Yeah, do you have a dsm withyou right now?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
that's a lot no, no, I I've read.
I've read some of the dsm I hadto.
I had to read a little bit formy one of my university courses,
but uh, I, I didn't.
I didn't purchase a dsm,although maybe I should, because
it's probably a bit of, youknow, a bit of low reading
before better for exactly, youknow some light reading.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
As you were going through it, I was like damn
you're you're making.
I need to go grab mine and belike checking all the like uh,
what, how much, how much did Iforget about this?
He just has this off the dome.
Let me go grab this real quickright.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So narcissism is all about them too.
So you can put that what I wassaying before.
You can put him under BPD.
Narcissism like more than thePTSD, because PTSD man, a lot of
people claim PTSD but I don'tthink they really, really,
really understand it.
Do you know that, dom?
Do you know the criteria?
(16:04):
Do you know the definition?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Post-traumatic stress disorder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but doyou have the dates?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
like you did on BPD, Go for it.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Donald, this is your day All of a sudden.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well, ptsd manifests itself in very different ways to
BPD.
Ptsd manifests itself in verydifferent ways to BPD.
Obviously, post-traumaticstress disorder is something
that you get as a result ofundergoing extreme traumatic
experiences, which can involvetrauma, responses to things that
(16:47):
are associated with thetraumatic experience flashbacks,
night terrors, depression,isolation from family members.
It's ironic because PTSD is notsomething I'm particularly
familiar with compared to BPD,because PTSD is not something
that has affected my family somuch.
(17:08):
I don't want to get toopersonal, but like yeah, yeah
yeah, yeah, it's, it's obvious,it's a complex.
Well, it's just like it's acomplex mental disorder,
post-traumatic stress disorder,associated with like is it like
fight or flight responses?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Sort of trauma, I mean there's a couple of
breakdowns.
If I want to step in on Dom'stoes real quick here knowing the
PTSD like criteria a little bitmore when we were doing this
for the show Morpheus on, youknow like 22 a day and you know
lowering suicidal ideations,things like that, um, the, the
(17:59):
gray area, I guess, of itoutside of like the actual DSM,
uh, dsm diagnostic criteria isthat?
Uh, yeah, is it the mentalsymptoms of those traumatic
events, that criteria that uhput you in that criteria of like
you know certain levels of PTSD.
And then is it the actualphysical transformation of the
brain, like you were saying, dom, there, of the fight or flight.
Are you always having the highblood pressure?
(18:20):
Are you always having theconstant?
Yeah, that's stimulation,exactly, that's the.
That's like the range that Isaw for the, I saw for the DSM
diagnostic portion, was you havethe like.
I don't remember if it waslevel one, but you have like the
first side of it, which is themental revisiting, the
nightmares and that stuff fromeither one event or a couple
(18:41):
re-exposures to these events.
You have triggering events,things like that that could
classify as PTSD.
You know first stage and thenthe other side of the spectrum
and then, of course, all thosein between.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
However, I do know that what it doesn't do is make
you kill your kids.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Correct, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Dom, it's not that like if someone someone
suffering from post-traumaticstress disorder often avoids any
kind of dangerous activities oractivities that would put
others in harm's way, unlessit's like a specific emotional
(19:20):
trigger which, like, for example, someone could be if they've
been attacked at some point.
And could I, could I ask a?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
question to the group here for a second then, um,
pausing it for, because I thinkwe're getting down the like
clinician route of like this isit's a black and white thing of
this is what it is, and I andand part of like specifically
like this situation is it kindof goes to show is like whether
this guy and from the courtdocuments that I saw, he was
(19:52):
diagnosed a couple times withBPD and he also had PTSD from
the VA as a diagnostic criteria.
As a disability.
Exactly he had been diagnosed.
Yeah, exactly.
And putting all that aside ismaybe he had something else as
well which is part of that.
Like it's not just because youhave PTSD Now you, you know you
(20:14):
would avoid the situation, causeI know like confusion is a big
thing with PTSD and I and againI have to refresh my BPD, but um
, Remember the guy who was thename of the guy who wrote Damn
the Valley.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Remember in Fayetteville, North Carolina,
William Yeske?
One of the guys from that unitin North Carolina snapped and
killed a bunch of people.
Started clearing houses becausehe was having a weird flashback
.
Exactly.
He shot himself in front of thecops.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That's exactly where I was going to, Because mental
illness is such a fucked upweird thing when our brains go
haywire.
Is that?
I don't know I have to look for.
You know, I didn't do a hugedeep dive on Decker specifically
, I just familiarized myselfwith the case so that we could
talk about it.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You know like yeah, but I wonder what, like what
medication he was on you know,maybe he stopped, yeah, exactly,
he stopped taking like hedidn't do anything to follow up,
or yeah, yeah and again yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
if we're talking about the sounds like yeah, yeah
, we're talking about thefailures of systems or the
non-failure, like if we're gonnaget to the, the root of all of
these things.
I don't think we're going totoday, but you know if we're
gonna discuss this like I wantto say well, I want to say you,
you know, as as uh, as uh, notpolitely, but like as as well.
If we want to discuss this well,I think it is worth saying is
(21:32):
like all of these things arejust so fucking.
You know, it is such a fuckedup mess that, um, yeah, I too
many of the SSIs are to blameand, at the same time there's I
mean nothing comes like there'sno cookie cutter for anything.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I mean like if you have like PTSD from like shooty
times in the desert versus likeI mean disclaimer, I have a PTSD
, I have a PTSD diagnosis from acouple like near-death
experiences from the ship, right, so like I'm not like fight or
flight, I was getting shot at,but like certain things, certain
things involving boats kind offreak me out.
Still, you know what I mean.
(22:08):
Like exactly exactly, I wake up.
I wake up with dreams like I'mdrowning from time to time.
Like it's kind of like there'slike the varying degrees and
levels and like that's why, whenI was reading into his thing, I
was so curious to see like sohis record was like he'd been at
active duty for eight years.
He spent five months inafghanistan and he was an
infantryman that had gone tomountain survival school.
Not talking to my wife she'slike well, isn't that like a
really intense school?
And I was like kind of, butthat's a school that like a lot
(22:31):
of infantrymen go to.
That's a school that a lot oflike Marines go to.
I know, like Corman, who I'vebeen with the Marines, I went to
it just because they were there.
Like it's not like.
It's not like Green Beretschool.
You know what I mean.
Like it's like like a navy,nothing nothing I've seen really
dives into what his other thanhe was an infantryman that had
been in eight years and had onedeployment to afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That's all I can find , uh-huh I'd be curious to see
like did he have?
Wasn't 75th that he uh wentwith?
Isn't that one of the eliteranger schools?
Speaker 4 (22:59):
or ranger regiments or whatever.
He wasn't a ranger guy becausehe was an infantryman like
rangers, like it's own r's itsown code after that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Like you become like an army ranger.
He had his MOS of 70.
Let me double check this.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I think I don't know because I didn't see anything
about Ranger, because that wasmy first thought too.
I kind of assumed with whatthey were saying.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I was like okay, he was probably like a Ranger or a
Beret or something initial MOSand I thought his initial MOS
was 75th.
Let me, let me double checkthough.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
All of that is just a circle around, and say that I
agree a lot with what Nick said,which is I think that the it's
very quick to jump on the systembandwagon of, like the flaws
system and in my own.
So I haven't.
My VA experience is verylimited because I just submitted
a claim last week, but I knowin the military thank you I know
in the military, welcome, thankyou.
I know in the military that,like, if you want help, like you
(23:49):
can get it, man.
I mean, like I know there'slike varying circumstances and
there's cases that are sometimesdifferent than others.
Like you know, some people havetheir like one-off experiences
where it's bad, but like I'velike been able to get a referral
and maybe it's taken me a whileand I had to do effort on my
part, like for mental health, toget my diagnosis.
Like, yeah, it took me like twomonths to get an appointment,
but like I did, uh, I just hadto.
(24:15):
It was work on my part.
I had to not just rely ontricare.
I had to actually call clinics,ask them if they took tricare
and if they did, okay, are youtaking new patients?
And if they did be like okay,then I had to call tricare and,
hey, I need you to change myreferral.
Like it took effort but you cando it.
It's not impossible and it'snot like these aren't secrets of
the insider trade, like youknow what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I totally agree with that.
Uh, Morpheus is nuts.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I would say that might be part of the problem.
But yeah, I'm glad you broughtthat up, morpheus, because you
know it's it just in themilitary itself.
I remember when you were sickyou go to sick call.
You have to follow through.
If you're not gonna get better.
You don't get to go to sickcall, correct?
(25:00):
So a lot of people they went tosick call to get taken care of.
Now when you're a civilian youcan make all kinds of excuses
but it's like dude, no one'sgonna like say call to get out
of formation and pt right,believe it or not, if you're
gonna get something, if you'reout of the army and you know you
(25:22):
have these, you know thesediagnosis, these injuries and
you don't follow up your shitout of luck.
You don't have people holdingyour hand.
You know you have to do the workyou do, you do, and there's
plenty of times in and out ofthe va, even in the army, that
(25:42):
dude, you have to advocate foryourself.
You know, just recently, thiscancer thing, you know I, I can
say this system helped me but,dude, let me tell you, it
fucking sucked because, dude,they wouldn't want to go further
in treatment or or, um, yeah,in treatment, right then and
there and unless I got a, uh, amammogram yeah, some male.
(26:06):
They were like get a mammogram,yes, I'm male.
They were like get a mammogram.
Va was saying no, it's notneeded.
So that was like six monthsfight.
So I just let it go.
I just did my diligence.
I did what they were telling meto do, not the VA, but the
people outside of the care andcommunity care.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
You got the mammogram no.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
No, I didn't get the mamm man where, that's what I'm
saying, and they had a fight,but um, but no, community care,
you'll know, is is what it's themiddleman for the va to get, if
you're like in a rural area, umthe the civilians or the
veterans to get care outside,like not at the VA, but at the
(26:50):
community hospital the nearestcommunity hospital, and so you
work with them a lot, but thenyou have to follow up with
appointments at the VA, thenappointments at the community or
wherever they put you orwherever they agree to you know,
have you, get looked at andit's just like the middleman,
middleman, middleman.
And I'll tell you what, if Ididn't do that, if I didn't
(27:12):
follow their rules, dude, I'vebeen paying out of my ass, you
know.
So it's expensive.
It is just just being there fora whole day, on a Friday, to
get treatment, treatment forfour, four weeks, five weeks,
you know my brand dude my wife'ssister had cancer and uh she
was like she said it's like thebill, that like the insurance
(27:34):
company it was.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
It was like one session of chemo was like a lot
yeah yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
so I was like man, I was.
I was very thankful that Ididn't jump the gun like real
I'm so thankful.
But it was me working with themand them like actually saying
thank you for you know, notbiting our heads off when I
talked to them like dude,there's no need to do that,
(28:00):
you're here to help me.
You know.
I'm just doing what I can toget you know, to get the help.
You know, and I don't know man,being in the VA system for so
long and seeing how a lot ofthis disgruntled vets treat the
workers there and are, I guess,demanding to be treated, you
(28:25):
know I've never been treatedwrong in the VA and I've been in
the VA in Tacoma, I've been inthe VA in Portland, spokane,
walla, walla, I go here.
I've never been treated poorly,but the fact that I've seen so
many incidents with vetstreating workers poorly, it's
(28:48):
through the roof, man and it isvery sad.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Oh, I believe it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
It's very sad and it's just like no one owes you
anything, nothing, you know, andI'm all.
I sit there and you can tellthe difference from the old
timers to the new timers.
New timers, man, we're quiet.
You know we do our fightingbehind closed doors.
You know, we're very subtle,like seriously we are, and then,
but the old timers man, they'redisgruntled, they're like going
(29:13):
to be in the trenches, man,fighting them, you know, out in
the open.
And I tell you what, man,there's a couple of times when I
told an old, old guy that, uh,to sit his ass down, because,
dude, he's making us look bad.
He looked at me, he sat his assdown.
But, dude, it's, it's, it'smessed up, man, it's messed up.
(29:34):
And I, I feel like this systemsthing with whether it's the
court I see that too because ofmy work as well, but mostly on
the va side man, people saying,you know, veterans don't get the
care that they need, they don'tget the care that they, I think
they don't get what they want,man, and so they just quit, they
(29:57):
just they give up or they'rethey have other excuses.
Man, that's what I feel.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You look at like the VA like 20 years ago versus
today.
I mean, like there were a lotof problems with the VA for a
long time but a lot of them likegot really like because of all
the backlash they got and peoplesetting themselves on fire and
shit, like they had some prettysolid revamps and like it's
better, it's a lot better, likea lot of those systems are a lot
better than they were 20, 30years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, that was a little fun, I better.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
A lot of those systems are a lot better than
they were 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That was a little fun .
Speaker 2 (30:31):
There was a case.
Dom where someone was trying toget treatment.
I don't remember exactly theyear.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I want to say like 18 , 20.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Phoenix, Arizona, I think I'd say 17, then 17, 18
time frame.
He continued to get therunaround and was waiting for
like hours, if not days, forlike a callback or treatment or
something, and then he ended uptaking his life by setting
himself, I want to say, in theit was in a waiting.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
It was in a waiting room.
I thought it was in the waitingroom.
I think I was in Phoenix, allright.
I think it was phoenix.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Phoenix is like one of the big, like horror story va
places and and that's a goodone to bring up there morpheus
just to like cherry on top of uh, nick and yours back and forth.
There is I agree it is thingsget better, um, uh, when people
you know point them out, and Ithink the overall system has
gotten a lot better, but then,at the same time, there are
things that get worse due to thequote-unquote good idea,
(31:28):
fairies and changes, and at thesame time, there's plenty of
these horror stories that we'retalking about.
Right, I mean, it does happen,but it's a huge system, like I'm
with Nick, where I give a lotof people benefit of doubt and
you see it, with like these, Igot to do this.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
I'm like dude, no, you don't, because there are
those dickheads right, you getthose guys that come in and they
say you're going to do this forme.
You're like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Exactly Versus.
I feel like Nick would come inlike, hey, this is what's going
on, how can we help each other,kind of a thing here.
I tell this to this secondclass that I that I often have
to deal with and I'm like, dude,you know you, would you catch a
lot more of those bees withhoney than you would with the
vinegar?
Cause he'll just come up hey, Ineed this.
I'm like, no, you don't, you'reasking me for this.
(32:14):
Okay, I will get to what youwant me to do as soon as I'm
done doing the thing that I amactually doing right now.
So settle down, you know, shutthe fuck up.
So I don't know, you get bothsides of it.
I don't think it's one or theother, especially in this case.
I wonder what happened withfucking Decker?
Was he not getting seen?
Again?
I go back to what meds was heon?
(32:35):
Was he not getting seen?
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Even his wife said in one of the articles.
She said she didn't even knowif he had been attempting
treatment.
He had gotten diagnosed but shedidn't know if he had done
anything with them.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Like yeah, but at the same time he was living out his
truck at the same.
At the time I was living outthis truck and yeah listen.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
but is that, is that necessarily someone who is
suffering?
Now again, I don't want to givethis son of a bitch any benefit
of the doubt here, but I wantto involve the convert.
I want to, yeah, evolve theconversation as far and, as you
know, propped up as I possiblycan here, and it's like if we
the conversation as far and, asyou know, propped up as I
possibly can here, and it's likeif we, if we're not doing the
(33:12):
nuance portion of it, we'regoing to be doing a disservice.
And is it really somebody whosufferings um, or is it always
somebody who's suffering um jobto look out for themselves?
I, you know, part of me saysyes, but also part of me is like
, not everybody has that ability, Not everybody is able to, for
one reason or another.
You know going through, youknow childhood trauma and you
(33:34):
know preferences and personalitytypes Like how, how can we
address?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
things like that in situations like this, you know,
yeah, you also have that choicetoo.
That's true A hundred percent.
If I want to get better, if I,if I want to get past my
childhood trauma, my militarytrauma, you know, like which I
have, and for the better I've.
I struggled recently because,you know, I had to do, um, the
(33:56):
graduation.
Not in my wildest dream did Ithink I would speak and
introduce, uh, future soldiers,you know.
So I've come a long way.
But for me to come this way, Iknew I had to make a change.
I knew I had to step up, notjust for my wife of almost 20
years, but also my, my daughter,who's a pain in the ass.
(34:17):
She's going to be 18.
My other, my middle daughter,who's going to be a high school
next year, and then my soon tobe seventh, uh, seven year old.
You know that this month youknow what I mean it's just like
for me to be where I'm at I hadto work on it For me to walk.
(34:38):
When I was getting out of theArmy, I had to go to physical
therapy.
I went to physical therapy forsix to eight years, man, nonstop
.
That was in the military andoutside.
I've had so many injuries.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I love those guys.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Physical therapy.
What's that?
Yeah, I love physical therapy.
I see them too and I love them.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, but to get where I'm at, what I'm saying is
, dude, you have to be on your Agame yourself, you know.
So I feel it was a choice.
If he didn't, or anybody elsesays that they didn't get the
help, I don't blame the systemwhatsoever.
Yes, there's some system flaws,of course, just like all of
(35:24):
them.
Like politics and bureaucraticbullshit, it's a big system,
exactly, exactly, yeah, it is,but, dude, no one could hold
your hand or exactly spank yourbutt to get the help that you
need.
You know, and you know, likepeople, mental, mental health
and the homeless that's a hugesubject too.
(35:45):
Who, whose fault, who's atfault?
A lot of them choose to behomeless because they don't want
to be around people.
What I'm saying is, dude peoplelike the armchair warriors that
are saying, oh, the systemfailed them, oh, we need to be
better on mental health.
(36:06):
The same guys yelling at thepoor va receptionist at the
front desk exactly, exactly, andit just it sucks because not
only does it look bad of thesystems but also other veterans
who have similar issues, correct, but I'm not going to go and
kill my three daughters that Ihave, you know what I mean, it's
(36:28):
just.
But so we're all like in thislittle cluster of like oh shit,
you're a veteran, you have ptsd,I don't have bpd, don't fucking
have that shit.
I I major depressive anxiety,you know that kind of thing.
But uh, it basically how thispanned out.
(36:49):
It makes it look like allveterans suffer, just like this
guy, and that we're like aticking time bomb, just like
this guy.
And that's how I see it, that'show I feel it, you know, and
having three kids myself andthen him doing his shit, it
really it really hits man.
It really hits because not ifthey're not blaming the va
(37:12):
system or army military systemin the court system and that
right there that's a big systemjudges have to do their
diligence, they have to do whatis right for, not just for the
ex but for the kids, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I think it's easy sometimes to blame.
It's easier to blame the systemas a whole than to just think
like maybe this guy just hadsome fucked up problems and
maybe he just like snapped andthat it's really shitty and it
sucks for that guy, but likethat doesn't inherently mean
that the system as a wholefailed.
Like I think that's an easythat's the easy answer, though,
(37:52):
right, it's like oh, the systemfailed, the system failed.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
This person like why is it like that?
though like go ahead don I wasgonna say like the borderline
personality disorder, if he didsuffer from it.
There's a disease which isonset from like early adulthood,
right like it can be like 18years old, so he could have had,
probably he could have easilyhad these problems, you know,
(38:14):
before he joined the military,or you know when he joined the
military, right from the right,from the beginning.
So this could have very easilybeen attributed to some sort of
childhood traumas that heendured prior to any kind of
military activity.
So to blame this on veteranaffairs seems a bit silly to me,
and to blame things on thesystem just seems to be an
(38:35):
all-encompassing, easy, easy way, easy way out.
You know the big, infamous they, you know, yeah, the system
what does?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
that like.
What does that mean?
Well, and like especially.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
I definitely agree with nick when he first said
people are like they're glassingover the bpd and they're the
system.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
What does that like?
What does that mean?
Well and like, especially, Idefinitely agree with nick when
he first said people are likethey're glassing over the, the
bpd and they're just pointingout the ptsd, the ptsd and
they're they're totallybypassing the other, like
screaming elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, the bigger of the two, yeah yeah, well, also,
I was gonna, um, I I wanted tolike also touch with this whole
rationalization thing, like Ithink that's what we're all
doing here.
When some fucked up thinghappens, right, it's like, like
you said, nick, you can't, youcan't imagine hurting one of
your, one of your girls, right,and somehow these, these fucked
(39:18):
up people do throughout theworld.
Right, it's like it's this isnot going as this is and it's
like so all of us who are leftafter the fact.
Yeah, like you said, dom, it'seasy to point that finger, but I
think, when we start this wholeconversation, I think this
whole like true crimefascination, the whole, when it
(39:38):
hits home, why it hits home, whypeople want to, whether it's
pointing to VAs or VA ormilitary service as like
culprits for this and that Ithink it's.
We just don't want, I don't know, we don't want it to happen
again, and so, however we canrationalize, people are
immediately going to rationalizeand then, as like we've talked
about, dom, it's so much easierfor a majority of people to
(39:59):
rationalize the easiest, thelowest hanging fruit possible,
which is, like you said, nick,like, oh, we've heard the VA has
problems, so it must be.
Oh, and we know PTSD is like aproblem.
Oh, it must be that you knowwhat I mean.
And I, and especially with likeCNN or whatever, I haven't
watched any of the local news oranything.
I've just been going off of acouple online articles and some
some grok, you know, sourcedTwitter sources.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
I love it and grok.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And that's how I caught up with this.
But whatever the narrative isgoing out there, it sounds like
it's going towards the typicallowest hanging fruit, right,
nick?
Yeah, oh yeah, the military.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, so that's not surprising.
People want easy answers.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That's not surprising .
Speaker 3 (40:38):
People just want easy answers, because life is not
really that clean cut.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, how do you have an hour?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
so these conversations require more
nuance yeah yeah, so so I Ifigured you know veteran myself
in the system myself.
I thought it's like you know, Ineed, I need to do my service
with my guys, dom included.
Shout out uk, shout out, yeah,shout out my mates over there,
(41:10):
you know, and just say you knowyour cunts, the cunts I was
waiting for you take yeahyeah, take another look please,
because man, it like really hitshome.
It's right down the road frommy house, you know, and it's
just being an outdoorsman itself, you know.
You can also look at the systemthat, uh, he was going back and
forth, he was living in and outof camping areas and if he was
(41:34):
using his veterans or militaryactive military or active duty
military bits in the, the rangerstations and stuff, you can
stay there for 14 days prettymuch for free or bare minimum
like 20 bucks out of all those14 days.
(41:54):
They really want to dosomething.
They're going to look at thatand they're going to change that
, because they hinted at himbeing at camping grounds, living
at camping grounds for X amount, you know, max days or 14.
It says that in every uhtrailhead or every campground,
uh area, right and uh, and ifthey want, they should look at
(42:19):
that.
You know what I mean and belike, okay, why are you staying
here, 14 days Maybe?
put it in a survey or aquestionnaire, or you know, just
change the way.
Yeah, yeah, right, exactly, Imean you can look at that as a
system failure, because 14 dayscan give you a lot of time to go
(42:39):
I don't know, is that mondaymidnight or monday morning
quarterbacking, though?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
because because like what?
What will we, what would, whatwould it find?
Like again, yeah, if he'sstaying 14 days, are you saying
because he's prepping to dosomething crazy, or are you
saying because he's homeless andtherefore we shouldn't let him?
What failure could anybodypoint to with ranger stations or
anybody who's letting theveteran come in and out of their
(43:10):
campground?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
I'm just saying, if you want to blame something, you
can blame that too if youreally look into it.
But no one blames that.
No one looks at the, the forestservice.
You know the, the, the benefitsthere you can stay 14 days max
and then go right down the road,go 14 days max, you know, and
they're kind of sounds likesigns of him.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, I want to go camping right now.
You hear me now here you talkabout this.
I'm like I kind of want to gocamping for 14 you can do it,
man probably not.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Probably not in those woods until they find that guy,
but you know yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, but what is you know?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
it gives you enough time to search.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
no, no, I don't think anybody said anything enough
time to think a little whatdelayed.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I unfortunately do have to hop off here.
We are catching a movie in 25minutes, 5 minutes down the road
and I gotta put pants on still.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I'm glad you're doing it no, we're gonna see
ballerina.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
It's that new it's the new John Wick movie with
Anna de Armas.
Female version.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Yeah, it's female John Wick with Anna de Armas no.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
I can't wait to see that.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
We're going to the cinema cafe, so I'm going for
the food and the pictures.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Well, get out of here I'm wasting time.
It was great to be on.
I love the conversations.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well, get out of here , I'm wasting time.
Morpheus, it was great to be on.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
I love the conversations.
I wish I could stay on longer.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You're good, morpheus , appreciate you making it up.
Yeah, of course.
See you guys.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
See ya Morpheus.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
How do I, how do I, how do I, now that we got rid of
him, that fucking cunt?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, dude, now that we got rid of him, that fucking
cunt.
Yeah, dude, you're.
This is quietest I've everheard.
Yet I mean, I'm just taking itall in, no, but like seriously
though, like if you really lookinto it, people don't pay
attention.
Dude, you can go there 14 daysand, being military ex-mil
veteran and everything else, inthe state of Washington, I can
stay in a campground for free,national parks and everything
(45:21):
For free, yeah, yeah, and I canget in the national parks for
free, and I can stay at thecampground for a max of 14 days.
And so, oregon, I stay inOregon, dude, if I want to stay
14 days, it's going to be $20,man, it's like $2, $3 a day.
That's, that's heaven.
But that gives you enough timeto look around and do whatever
(45:43):
you want in and out of the woods.
Man, and I tell you what, onceyou're away from the campground,
once you're away from the, the,the highway, dude, anything
goes, man, anything goes, andthere's a lot of land in that
area.
You've probably been there,right, hermes?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
100.
Yeah, and again I'm.
Everything you described islike yeah, that sounds like a
good thing yeah, so, um, I don'tknow, man, it it's.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
I wanted to discuss the systems.
I think we did that, but I Ireally feel like, yeah, the
lowest hanging fruit.
I think that's where we're at,and me being a veteran and truly
turning my life around andeverything else and how this
podcast is going as well.
I'll be telling my story soon,but I feel like this was a good
(46:32):
start to start um, portrayingthat, uh, telling my story and
stuff like that.
So I really do, um, appreciateyou guys being on and everything
else and discussing thisbecause, um, it hurt a little
dude, it hurt.
Um, I I normally don't get intotoo many news stories, but when
(46:56):
you hurt your loved ones andeverything else and then people
are saying this and that it'sjust like, man, fuck off, I had
to speak.
I had to speak because I can'tdo a post because it doesn't hit
the same as a podcast or youknow an episode like this, so I
mean, it's an absolutelyabhorrent crime to take place.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
It's like one of the worst things somebody can do is
kill, that kill, well, kill anychildren, but kill your own
children, um, yeah yeah you knowit's like it's a, it's a.
It's a hard thing that I sortof rationalizing any crime is
pretty difficult, but trying torationalize the murder of
children is something that isquite beyond my own capabilities
(47:45):
it's an affront to nature.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It goes against every single bone in our body.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, it is as well, and if they were found and if
they were killed in the way,yeah, it is well as well and
like, and if they, if they werefound and if they were killed in
the way that it is described,with the suffocation and the zip
tie binding, that's quite athat indicates some sort of
premeditation as well.
Yeah, you know, this wasn'tjust him impulsively shooting.
(48:13):
This was like it's awful, it's aterrible thing to inflict on
somebody else, especially yourown kids, who haven't even
reached the age of 10 yet right,hermes, you know about my
brother-in-law, right did I tellyou?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
about that.
You might have to refresh mymemory, man all right.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So a few years back, right before covid hit like that
, that, that winter, my uhbrother in law went in the
mountains in the eastern sierrasin november.
Which eastern sierras dude didit's?
It's still freezing during thesummer, right, certain places,
certain parts, it's still wet.
(48:58):
You're going to have black eyes.
Well, november he decides toclimb a mountain, comes up
missing.
We were hoping the best.
Come out missing and deceased.
They didn't find the body fourdays later, you know.
And so if they're going to finda body, they they're gonna find
a body, they're gonna find abody.
But I feel him, I feel I don'tthink he's on the run dude, I
(49:20):
think he found the perfect spotwhere he's not gonna be found
and he's dead I was gonna asklike how all of this uh ends and
I wonder yeah yeah, I I wonderif that was, that isn't and
wasn't his goal the whole time,especially, like you said, don,
with that premeditation for hisgirls.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
I wonder if this wasn't a whole, especially with
I don't know, not especiallywith but with the diagnosis and
the experience and him being inthe area, knowing the area well
enough, like you like you'retalking about there, nick.
Um, yeah, I mean, if you'veever been to to those like
northern areas, like you said, Imean we used to joke sometimes,
(50:03):
you know, you had a little bittoo much to drink.
You'd be like, yeah, I couldsee how bigfoot would hide out
here.
It's just so fucking dense andthick and like I could get you
know and that's just like ajoking example of how fucking
wild and and dense and and yeah,an animal get to you out there.
Um, you know now, especiallynow during the summer, and
everything like I, I don't know,I I doubt that.
(50:25):
Um, if that was his, if thatwas his um idea, then yeah, I
doubt he's ever gonna be foundor yeah, well, I mean, it has
all.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
It has all the hallmarks of a murder suicide.
If he hadn't have gathered, ifhe hadn't have searched you know
, things like how to move tocanada, jobs in canada, things
like that I would have said, yes, classic murder, suicide thing.
Because if he was living out ofhis truck and the truck has
subsequently been abandoned,yeah, um, yeah, you know, that's
like, that's a significantpiece of evidence that they
found.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, I do want to know the handprint, the bloody
handprint on the truck tailgate.
That's where I want to knowmore about that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
I mean, I don't.
I was going to say we don'tknow, at least not that I found
the the complete, like coroner'sreport on his little girls, so
and what he might be doingbefore and afterwards.
Well, that's what I'm.
I don't.
The blood I mean it could be alot of.
It could be all kinds offucking things, who knows.
I think, uh, the end of the day, if we're gonna wrap this into
(51:24):
fucked up shit that happened is,um, I honestly I hope he is
dead.
You know that's that's the endof it.
Let's be done with this.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
And you know I don't know and in the grand scheme of
things too, hermes I.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
I just want people to know, man, not everybody's like
that, yeah exactly no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah not everyone's like
that, and the system is not afailure well, if and if you're
having problems with the system,or if you're having problems
with, you know, mental health orwhatever, like, reach out, I
know nick will pick up, I know Iwill pick up, I know dom will
(51:59):
pick up, having you know.
You know, having been in all ofthese situations in terms of,
like, I call dom, he picks up,he calls me, I pick up, it does
not matter.
Um, do it guys?
You don't.
Uh, yeah, I don't.
Like you said, there is noexcuse for getting this bad.
I I hate when the article's likeoh, there were so many signs
and then somebody said, yeah,he's about to do an extreme.
(52:20):
It's like, okay, all of those,all of those you know
quote-unquote warning signs,again after the fact do nothing
but prior.
When you notice those things,like my buddy uh, I don't want
to put him on blast, just hadlike a bad breakup, and
immediately I was like dude,come down for this, you know
Friday.
And he's like, no, I don't knowif I really want to hang out.
I was like no, no, no, you'rehanging out.
(52:40):
And then it was me and anotherbuddy and the same thing.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
The other buddy said he's like, yeah, what you know,
like I mean a breakup was thething that got me on the first
episode of the scuttlebuttpodcast.
So the reason why I'm here, Imean.
But then again, in myexperience, um, reporting
someone to the mental healthservice can do more harm than
good.
Um, it's happened before.
I've done it before.
Um, I talked about the storyonce on on the podcast and I was
like um and the subsequentthings that happened after that
(53:19):
were quite, quite heavy to dealwith.
So, um, but if, if there issomeone struggling that you know
, encourage them to reach outand just sort of sit there and
say, oh, I recognize the warningsigns before everything
happened.
You know, it's like, I feel likeif you, if you're a friend or
someone close to this person whois clearly suffering from some
(53:42):
sort of mental affliction, it'syou have some sort of moral
obligation to point them in thedirection in which they can get
help.
Yeah, yeah.
But then again, it's likethere's people, there's people
who suffer from these things andthey find comfort in their
mental affliction because it'sall they ever know.
And they, you know, it's peoplewho don't want to get treatment
(54:05):
for depression or anxiety,because they can't imagine a
world in which they would livewithout depression or anxiety
and they just stick to theirways.
Or perhaps you know findingyeah, because depression is such
an all-encompassing thing, theymight not see a point to going
getting help.
They think that they'recompletely unfixable, which is
(54:25):
also not the case.
So if there is somebodystruggling, isn't anyone anyone
who's listening?
If there is somebody who'sstruggling, yeah, encourage them
to go and seek help, please.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Reach out.
Reach out too, don't be afraid.
And being a mandated reporterman, I definitely understand the
relationships, friendships.
They turn sour.
A little intent and why you didwhat you did.
They come around and they, theyend up appreciating you and
appreciate what they uh, youknow what, what we did and how
(55:01):
we did it and how we went aboutit.
At the moment they don't andwon't, but at the end, at the
end of the day or a couple weeksfrom from then, you know, after
you call, then they come around.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
They do.
These things take time.
These things take time to dealwith, you know.
They take a long time tocontrol, to fix, to deal with,
to mend.
But nothing in life which isgood is going to come easy to
you.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I said said you got to do the work.
Armies what's up.
Why are you so quiet?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
dude, I'm just taking it in.
I I'm not, uh, I don't have anyalcohol in my system, so not as
a interruptive and chatty it'sa heavy.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
It's a heavy topic as well, but it's a very it's a
very heavy topic yeah, and Iappreciate you guys
understanding that and andcoming on, you know, I, I, yeah,
I, I really being being veteran, being having issues being
where from started from thebottom, now I'm here, I, I feel
I'm here, you know, um, I reallyfeel, uh, it's, it's, it's a
(56:12):
negative.
You know, anybody in the system, military vet, whatever, once
something happens, dude, it'sjust like everybody thinks all
veterans are like that, or allveterans, you know all military.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
It casts the wrong light, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, man.
So I was like you know whatI've had, my falls, but guess
what I've worked on it.
But you've got to be thatperson to want it, you know.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Just like addiction.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, dom.
I appreciate your closing words, man, for real, thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
I feel like there should be a more nuanced
discussion about this as well.
This veteran affairs thing andjust everyone blaming people as
like a blanket thing is justsupremely unhelpful.
Yeah, and shouldn't, it shouldnot be allowed to happen.
But you know, people, peoplehave a chronic lacking of nuance
.
Not everybody, obviously, but alot of people have a chronic
(57:07):
lacking of nuance in theirdiscussions and things and they,
uh, they don't really, theydon't really know how to have a
conversation without talking.
These black and white, um,these black and white statements
you know, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
So, dom, when am I gonna have you all by myself
anytime you like me no?
Speaker 3 (57:29):
anytime you like.
Anytime you like, um, yeah, I'ma, I'm a free man most days
well, I'm shocked that you came,man.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
You were like I'm on, okay sweet, all right, yeah
yeah, no, no, I was.
Speaker 3 (57:44):
I was like you know what, like this, this has been
my.
This has been a strange year.
This has been my year of justgoing on various different
podcasts.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
It's been a lot of fun, so I've been like hopefully
, you know, this continues oninto the future yeah you should
get your own man, you shouldstart your own start on, though
I don't know why I start on.
Speaker 3 (58:04):
I've got no idea, but no dude no, real, are you?
Speaker 1 (58:08):
kidding me, you're, you're, you're a smart young guy
.
I say young because you're wayyounger than I am, but still
still, you're the scholar.
Bro Intellect, you're sendingme shit from foreign languages.
You sent me that message.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
I had to go to.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Google.
Speaker 4 (58:24):
Translate it was French.
It was French.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
It was German.
I would have known, because Iwas stationed over there and I
did take two years of German.
Yeah, yeah, but you, you didsomething French.
I thought it was Spanish, butit was French.
See you see, what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, yeah, I'll do it in German next time.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And then you know, if there's aDom, there's going to be.
Have Hermes, just alone Hermes.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Let's do it right now .
I'm free today and I need tobust out some content.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Let's do it Now.
Where's the content on your?
On yours, or are you?
Speaker 2 (59:00):
I don't care, I'll put, I'll start recording on my
end or you will go on another.
We'll do a back to back episodewith you, nick.
He's always talking smack andhe's always like, oh, I can't
get them on.
I am always trying.
I'm about to go for anothermission for the rest of this
month.
So yeah, I mean I can't ever.
We can't ever align the stars.
(59:21):
We just have to make it happen.
We have to put the work in.
Nick Got to put the work in Allright, no time like the present
, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Do you have a topic for yours right now?
Speaker 2 (59:39):
do you have a topic for yours right now on my um?
I mean, I can figure it out.
Let me find my notes, because Ialways have notes ready to go.
I mean I was, uh, yeah, Ialways have a topic, dude, I can
, and I, you know me, I can riffon whatever I can.
I can just start, let me seewhat's my next.
Uh, again, no time like thepresent.
We could do whatever we want.
I don't care if Dom's free andstill chatting, we can do it now
.
Like I said, I can startrecording for my end here.
Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
I'm still free if you two just want to do an episode,
just you two, because I feellike this is a special occasion.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
If there's Hermes, there's Dom, there's Dom,
there's Hermes alright, alright,you know what I can stick
around seems, it seems like it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
I have my notes here.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Dom, start your own podcast.
Man, have us on Hermes dude.
You know it's always a pleasurethe guys, the people, the
listeners.
I know I have been on for a bit, but you guys know Scuttlebutt.
If you guys want to hear someriffraff, some opinionated fools
and some C-U-N-T's, you go toScuttlebutt.
(01:00:40):
But they're good guys.
Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
They're great guys.
They intellect themselves.
You can say it, you can say it,you can say it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Oh, the opinionated cunts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yes, okay, there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Is that better, Dom?
Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I hate that.
Perfect you've got.
You've passed that.
You passed the citizenship test.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
You can move here now thanks mate, thanks uh, so uh,
until next time, guys.
Thank you see.
On the flip side, hermy send mean?
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
uh an invite, all right yeah, we'll just do it
here, man, we, man, I'm pullingout everything that we're
talking about.
We already have Zoom open.
Why open another one?
I'm just going to, like I saidI've got, I have my device up
here, no worries, I'm going torecord from here exactly as we
are, and we'll just go fromthere.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
That's how we do End meeting for all.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
You just got to end the recording.
You don't have to end themeeting.
We'll see you next time.
so scuttlebutt podcast that's hermes, that's
morpheus and then this new guy,dom dom.
Nice to meet you nice to seeyou on here.
I wanted you to be on a longtime ago, just yourself, because
scuttlebutt introduced and dudeyou rock.
(00:42):
You're a scholar from acrossthe atlantic, the uk right, do
you guys say, mate?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
or is that australia no, we say mate, we say we say
mate okay, well, you guys alsouse this.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay, you guys fluently use the c-u-n-t word
too, and that that's that.
That's more harsher than themate in my my opinion yeah, it's
not.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's not something you typically would call
somebody if you were friendswith them, like it's more of an
exclamation of annoyance thananything else, although actually
, no, to be fair, it can bequite a friendly thing, all
right I love this guy.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I'm over here, this, this, this guy Dom over here,
this guy is awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
You big, lovable cunt Exactly Sick cunt.
You Sick cunt.
A well executed cunt Is likepeak comedy Music to the ears.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
We're off to a strange start already, boys.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So one thing I gotta make it clear the listeners this
is Dom, he's from UK, hisaccent is thick, so please
beware.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But the guy is a scholar.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Oh yeah, it's, it's, it's going to, it's going to be
tough.
People are going to be like,yeah, but then they're going to
hear the CU and T word, you knowand they're like oh yeah, you
know yeah, yeah, yeah, thatguy's okay, but you've been
published four times right thatis a um okay.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Well, there's a story behind that all right go for it
, dom, let's, let's.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I just want to introduce you because a lot of
people know the scuttlebutt yeah, I'm just a I'm just a heavily
involved outside observer.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That's what I am.
Um, but the, the four timespublished thing on my on my
profile is literally just, uh,referring to the fact that when
I was in school they publishedme in a few books, um, just with
little short stories I wrotefor competitions and things.
Unfortunately I'm not a properpublished author.
I'd love to be one day, but, um, that's why I had in the,
(02:48):
that's why I hadn't in the biofor a while like four-time
published author, technically soyeah, we'll get.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
We'll get that one day we'll get that we'll get
that one day.
We'll get that one day oh, okay,all right, but I ask you guys
because, man, I tell you whatI'm, that uh, that pool Patreon
party of your guys's Twitter andman, it's just, it was like, oh
God, it's blown up every twominutes for you know, certain
times of day, and I'm like gosh,I have to quiet this down
(03:16):
because I'm at work, I'm like,and so just recently I was just
like, okay, I'm going to, Ithink it's time, I'm going to
ask the boys and did full sendagain and you guys were like
I'll be there.
But so I thank you guys.
Hermes Morpheus, you're finallyon.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Hey, here we are.
You asked for me by name.
I show up.
That's what I told my wife.
Normally I would be like I canthis weekend, but when I, when
you ask by name, like how areyou gonna say no?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
yeah, you make it, and when it's nick nonetheless,
you know exactly, with the bigold stick we will show up for
him well, morpheus, I meanhermes.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How many times I've asked that guy to get on and
he's like oh, I'm busy, oh blah,blah now he's here, so again I
got my, he's busy he's busytalking to me
Speaker 3 (04:11):
usually I know, I know, he's got, he's got, he's
got more important things yeah,yeah, I'm starting you've
outshined hermes, so that's agood thing in my book.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But hermes, that's my bud my bud hermes, you're my
buddy, you know I can talk thatshit I can't wait to come get a
beer with you, bro.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But uh, yeah, it's not that hard to outshine me
more if it's okay especiallywith your chaotic energy.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I don't know about that okay.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So I'm doing this story because it hits a lot.
It's a lot on, well, the storyof travis decker.
Don't really want to put himout there, don't really want to
state what he did.
A lot of people in the worldknow what he, knows what he did.
But one of the things I want toemphasize on in this episode is
(05:07):
, uh, which is a lot differentthan any other episode I've done
was basically the systems.
Either you're listening topeople, uh, blaming the court,
the judge, then the mentalhealth, you know the va system
or the military system, becauseapparently the dude was still in
the military.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
He just went awol or didn't show up and he was gonna
get reprimanded yeah, yeah yeah,he was yeah, at the time he was
in the process of gettingseparated out for not showing up
to drills correct.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So that is that a wall, is that malingering?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
is that both or what I think it'd be okay wait, um,
before we continue, you're gonnahave to uh explain a few of
these terms to me, because I'mnot entirely familiar with the
us military and and terminology.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So we got you dumb, okay, so so he was supposed to
show up for his duty thatweekend, or multiple weekends,
and he did not show up.
The higher-ups were in themiddle or in the process, which
it takes probably six months toa year to get in the National
(06:21):
Guard.
Since it's a weekend warriorthing Don't hate me guys, that's
just how it is, Listeners, thatis.
And basically he was under.
He was going to be notcourt-martialed but basically
reprimanded for lack of dutiesand lack of showing up.
(06:42):
So AWOL it'sOL, what is it Away?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
without leave.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, absent yeah absent away without leave.
Yes, and then malingering isjust somebody that's in and
around just collecting apaycheck and doing whatever they
want.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, malingering is like faking a medical condition
or something Like trying to saylike oh, like you know.
I broke my arm and I can't dowork even though you didn't
actually break your arms.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, or you broke your arm and it was like
10 years ago and you, oh I, haveresidual pain and, like you
said, I can't do there's alwaysan excuse.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's a long, long arm break, fucking 10 years.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
It's always like an excuse, basically the simple
version is like I'm sick, I needto go home for the day, and
then you can see him at the bar.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, you're like wait a minute.
Yes, yes, yes, does thatexplain Dom In layman's terms.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yes, it does.
I'm just trying to get layman'sterms Okay, okay.
I get that.
You said God as well, just doyou mean national guard?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
yeah, okay, all right .
And to delineate that, likenick was saying with uh, weekend
warriors is the national guard?
Is yes, they're basicallycivilians and every like two
weeks out of the year, or everya month out of the year,
whatever their drill regiment is, um, every so often they have
to show up and put the uniformon and do whatever it is that
they're drilling for, unlike theactive duty that it's doing
(08:08):
that every day and it's kind oflike the opposite two weeks.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
It's kind of like, uh , the national guard's, kind of
like the reserves, except theyget activated by their
individual state to deal withlike state things rather than
like the reserve which isactivated by like the president
to go do stuff.
The national guard is like if atornado hits really bad
somewhere, they send thenational guard to help out.
You know?
I mean, so their army, like itis the army, but it's like, it's
kind of like a offset of thereserves, yeah, yeah speaking of
(08:32):
like, because we have a.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
We have a similar thing here, like we have the
army reserves here who getcalled in when sort of national
disasters happen.
So, okay, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah okay I'm with you.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It's like the state militias, basically, if that
makes sense they're showing upto LA right now for those riots.
I knew Hermes was going to saythat dude, I was reading about
that second amendment guy, herewe go well, lately third
amendment is like really reallytrending now oh yeah, I wonder
(09:03):
why that is abolish the third ifthey're cold, the Third If
they're cold if you're cold,they're cold.
Let them inside.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Is that the no soldiers being courted in?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, and Morpheus and Theron will not let it go.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
They will not let this die.
Joke about abolishing the ThirdAmendment.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Right 1776, that's when they had all that stuff,
alright.
So the coward Travis Deckerright, who allegedly zip, tied
his three baby girls andsuffocated them to.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Gosh, I say allegedly because don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
But, dude, it's like the believed cause of death is
asphyxiation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And before they found the babygirls, mom said he had it in his
heart that he would never hurtthe girls.
That's before they found them.
You know past, but I see thosegirls and I have three girls
myself and I'm just like fuckingcoward man who would do
(10:03):
something like that.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Well, they were what too?
It was like 9, 8, and 5 orsomething.
Yeah, 9, 8, and 5.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, 9, 8, 5.
Beautiful little girls Tookafter their mother, obviously,
(10:31):
but with that, there's a lot ofyou know just things said on
social media, whether it's youknow systems and courts, va, not
va.
Just I would say what militarymental health?
Yeah, he, there's claims of himhaving ptsd, but when you look
more into it, he had bpd, whichis borderline personality
disorder, which I work with alot of people that have that,
and I tell you what PTSD overanything does not make you want
(10:56):
to kill somebody, dude.
I'm just saying so, if I standcorrected and understand my
diagnosis borderline personalitydisorder.
They said that he was verynarcissistic.
That is a true underlying youknow what is it.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I noticed the reports also don't say what type of
borderline personality disorderhe was diagnosed with either.
It doesn't say if it was liketype 1 or 2, which makes a
difference.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, narcissistic, would that be type one?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
well that narcissistic yeah, bipolar one
and two have differentdiagnostic criteria, but bpd
doesn't have two separatecriteria.
Narcissistic narcissism is notnecessarily a trait of bpd.
It can be a trait of bpd, butit's not.
It's not one that comes underthe list of diagnostic criteria.
If he had narcissistic traits,he would have come under
(11:50):
narcissistic personalitydisorder, which is quite a
different thing.
Um, but bpd is, I think.
I think I've researched a lotabout.
I did a little universitycourse on like mental health and
madness and things like thatand BPD is a.
Well, it's a personalitydisorder, right?
So it's a, it's a.
(12:11):
It's a.
It's a disorder which sort ofis characterized by radical
confusion of identity, um,suicidal intentions and ideation
, and a extreme emotional, um,extreme emotional outbursts as
(12:31):
well, and also an incrediblypronounced fear of abandonment,
which manifests itself in manydifferent ways.
So if he was suffering from bpd, there there's a, there's a
certain case to be made for it.
A lot of people who have BPDoften engage in violent and
reckless activity, they engagein substance abuse, they're
(12:56):
frequently homeless and it'sactually a really difficult
thing to deal with because it'ssuch a complicated, complicated
mental health disorder that wedon't actually know much about,
because the people who sufferfrom bbd.
They they don't often.
Well, I mean, they often killthemselves, that they often
because they because, becausethey feel so bad, because their
(13:17):
brain is so not broken, buttheir brain is disordered.
They, yeah, I think it's one ofthe.
It's one of the only DSM-5mental health recognized
conditions which has suicide asa symptom, not just a
complication.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Are you just regurgitating this right now?
That was real impressive.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, that's what I said, damn Dom.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Are you reading something or are you just
regurgitating that that?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
was a lot.
No, no, that's, that'sregurgitative um, that is.
I learned that, uh, I thinkit's.
I've got family members whohave bpd um and it's, it's a.
It's quite a quite a terriblething to observe um and also
they have, they're very prone tointense anger as well, intense
(14:11):
angry outbursts, and they oftenhave.
Imagine a toddler having atemper tantrum.
Now, imagine that in a 25 yearold that's someone who suffers
from BPD has frequent angeroutbursts.
It's a very complicated mentaldisorder it would surprise me.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
BPD also is more into females than males too yes, it
is, it's, very difficult todiagnose, diagnose males, but I
tell you what man working withpeople who have bpd, uh, it's
all about them, them, them, them.
And this is a pure example of I, I think, think, what we're
(15:00):
dealing with and what we'regoing to talk about, dude.
So, um, I appreciate that, dom,dude, I swear.
Yeah, do you have a dsm withyou right now?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
that's a lot no, no, I I've read.
I've read some of the dsm I hadto.
I had to read a little bit formy one of my university courses,
but uh, I, I didn't.
I didn't purchase a dsm,although maybe I should, because
it's probably a bit of, youknow, a bit of low reading
before better for exactly, youknow some light reading.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
As you were going through it, I was like damn
you're you're making.
I need to go grab mine and belike checking all the like uh,
what, how much, how much did Iforget about this?
He just has this off the dome.
Let me go grab this real quickright.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So narcissism is all about them too.
So you can put that what I wassaying before.
You can put him under BPD.
Narcissism like more than thePTSD, because PTSD man, a lot of
people claim PTSD but I don'tthink they really, really,
really understand it.
Do you know that, dom?
Do you know the criteria?
(16:04):
Do you know the definition?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Post-traumatic stress disorder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but doyou have the dates?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
like you did on BPD, Go for it.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Donald, this is your day All of a sudden.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well, ptsd manifests itself in very different ways to
BPD.
Ptsd manifests itself in verydifferent ways to BPD.
Obviously, post-traumaticstress disorder is something
that you get as a result ofundergoing extreme traumatic
experiences, which can involvetrauma, responses to things that
(16:47):
are associated with thetraumatic experience flashbacks,
night terrors, depression,isolation from family members.
It's ironic because PTSD is notsomething I'm particularly
familiar with compared to BPD,because PTSD is not something
that has affected my family somuch.
(17:08):
I don't want to get toopersonal, but like yeah, yeah
yeah, yeah, it's, it's obvious,it's a complex.
Well, it's just like it's acomplex mental disorder,
post-traumatic stress disorder,associated with like is it like
fight or flight responses?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Sort of trauma, I mean there's a couple of
breakdowns.
If I want to step in on Dom'stoes real quick here knowing the
PTSD like criteria a little bitmore when we were doing this
for the show Morpheus on, youknow like 22 a day and you know
lowering suicidal ideations,things like that, um, the, the
(17:59):
gray area, I guess, of itoutside of like the actual DSM,
uh, dsm diagnostic criteria isthat?
Uh, yeah, is it the mentalsymptoms of those traumatic
events, that criteria that uhput you in that criteria of like
you know certain levels of PTSD.
And then is it the actualphysical transformation of the
brain, like you were saying, dom, there, of the fight or flight.
Are you always having the highblood pressure?
(18:20):
Are you always having theconstant?
Yeah, that's stimulation,exactly, that's the.
That's like the range that Isaw for the, I saw for the DSM
diagnostic portion, was you havethe like.
I don't remember if it waslevel one, but you have like the
first side of it, which is themental revisiting, the
nightmares and that stuff fromeither one event or a couple
(18:41):
re-exposures to these events.
You have triggering events,things like that that could
classify as PTSD.
You know first stage and thenthe other side of the spectrum
and then, of course, all thosein between.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
However, I do know that what it doesn't do is make
you kill your kids.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Correct, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Dom, it's not that like if someone someone
suffering from post-traumaticstress disorder often avoids any
kind of dangerous activities oractivities that would put
others in harm's way, unlessit's like a specific emotional
(19:20):
trigger which, like, for example, someone could be if they've
been attacked at some point.
And could I, could I ask a?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
question to the group here for a second then, um,
pausing it for, because I thinkwe're getting down the like
clinician route of like this isit's a black and white thing of
this is what it is, and I andand part of like specifically
like this situation is it kindof goes to show is like whether
this guy and from the courtdocuments that I saw, he was
(19:52):
diagnosed a couple times withBPD and he also had PTSD from
the VA as a diagnostic criteria.
As a disability.
Exactly he had been diagnosed.
Yeah, exactly.
And putting all that aside ismaybe he had something else as
well which is part of that.
Like it's not just because youhave PTSD Now you, you know you
(20:14):
would avoid the situation, causeI know like confusion is a big
thing with PTSD and I and againI have to refresh my BPD, but um
, Remember the guy who was thename of the guy who wrote Damn
the Valley.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Remember in Fayetteville, North Carolina,
William Yeske?
One of the guys from that unitin North Carolina snapped and
killed a bunch of people.
Started clearing houses becausehe was having a weird flashback
.
Exactly.
He shot himself in front of thecops.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That's exactly where I was going to, Because mental
illness is such a fucked upweird thing when our brains go
haywire.
Is that?
I don't know I have to look for.
You know, I didn't do a hugedeep dive on Decker specifically
, I just familiarized myselfwith the case so that we could
talk about it.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You know like yeah, but I wonder what, like what
medication he was on you know,maybe he stopped, yeah, exactly,
he stopped taking like hedidn't do anything to follow up,
or yeah, yeah and again yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
if we're talking about the sounds like yeah, yeah
, we're talking about thefailures of systems or the
non-failure, like if we're gonnaget to the, the root of all of
these things.
I don't think we're going totoday, but you know if we're
gonna discuss this like I wantto say well, I want to say you,
you know, as as uh, as uh, notpolitely, but like as as well.
If we want to discuss this well,I think it is worth saying is
(21:32):
like all of these things arejust so fucking.
You know, it is such a fuckedup mess that, um, yeah, I too
many of the SSIs are to blameand, at the same time there's I
mean nothing comes like there'sno cookie cutter for anything.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I mean like if you have like PTSD from like shooty
times in the desert versus likeI mean disclaimer, I have a PTSD
, I have a PTSD diagnosis from acouple like near-death
experiences from the ship, right, so like I'm not like fight or
flight, I was getting shot at,but like certain things, certain
things involving boats kind offreak me out.
Still, you know what I mean.
(22:08):
Like exactly exactly, I wake up.
I wake up with dreams like I'mdrowning from time to time.
Like it's kind of like there'slike the varying degrees and
levels and like that's why, whenI was reading into his thing, I
was so curious to see like sohis record was like he'd been at
active duty for eight years.
He spent five months inafghanistan and he was an
infantryman that had gone tomountain survival school.
Not talking to my wife she'slike well, isn't that like a
really intense school?
And I was like kind of, butthat's a school that like a lot
(22:31):
of infantrymen go to.
That's a school that a lot oflike Marines go to.
I know, like Corman, who I'vebeen with the Marines, I went to
it just because they were there.
Like it's not like.
It's not like Green Beretschool.
You know what I mean.
Like it's like like a navy,nothing nothing I've seen really
dives into what his other thanhe was an infantryman that had
been in eight years and had onedeployment to afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That's all I can find , uh-huh I'd be curious to see
like did he have?
Wasn't 75th that he uh wentwith?
Isn't that one of the eliteranger schools?
Speaker 4 (22:59):
or ranger regiments or whatever.
He wasn't a ranger guy becausehe was an infantryman like
rangers, like it's own r's itsown code after that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Like you become like an army ranger.
He had his MOS of 70.
Let me double check this.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I think I don't know because I didn't see anything
about Ranger, because that wasmy first thought too.
I kind of assumed with whatthey were saying.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I was like okay, he was probably like a Ranger or a
Beret or something initial MOSand I thought his initial MOS
was 75th.
Let me, let me double checkthough.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
All of that is just a circle around, and say that I
agree a lot with what Nick said,which is I think that the it's
very quick to jump on the systembandwagon of, like the flaws
system and in my own.
So I haven't.
My VA experience is verylimited because I just submitted
a claim last week, but I knowin the military thank you I know
in the military, welcome, thankyou.
I know in the military that,like, if you want help, like you
(23:49):
can get it, man.
I mean, like I know there'slike varying circumstances and
there's cases that are sometimesdifferent than others.
Like you know, some people havetheir like one-off experiences
where it's bad, but like I'velike been able to get a referral
and maybe it's taken me a whileand I had to do effort on my
part, like for mental health, toget my diagnosis.
Like, yeah, it took me like twomonths to get an appointment,
but like I did, uh, I just hadto.
(24:15):
It was work on my part.
I had to not just rely ontricare.
I had to actually call clinics,ask them if they took tricare
and if they did, okay, are youtaking new patients?
And if they did be like okay,then I had to call tricare and,
hey, I need you to change myreferral.
Like it took effort but you cando it.
It's not impossible and it'snot like these aren't secrets of
the insider trade, like youknow what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I totally agree with that.
Uh, Morpheus is nuts.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I would say that might be part of the problem.
But yeah, I'm glad you broughtthat up, morpheus, because you
know it's it just in themilitary itself.
I remember when you were sickyou go to sick call.
You have to follow through.
If you're not gonna get better.
You don't get to go to sickcall, correct?
(25:00):
So a lot of people they went tosick call to get taken care of.
Now when you're a civilian youcan make all kinds of excuses
but it's like dude, no one'sgonna like say call to get out
of formation and pt right,believe it or not, if you're
gonna get something, if you'reout of the army and you know you
(25:22):
have these, you know thesediagnosis, these injuries and
you don't follow up your shitout of luck.
You don't have people holdingyour hand.
You know you have to do the workyou do, you do, and there's
plenty of times in and out ofthe va, even in the army, that
(25:42):
dude, you have to advocate foryourself.
You know, just recently, thiscancer thing, you know I, I can
say this system helped me but,dude, let me tell you, it
fucking sucked because, dude,they wouldn't want to go further
in treatment or or, um, yeah,in treatment, right then and
there and unless I got a, uh, amammogram yeah, some male.
(26:06):
They were like get a mammogram,yes, I'm male.
They were like get a mammogram.
Va was saying no, it's notneeded.
So that was like six monthsfight.
So I just let it go.
I just did my diligence.
I did what they were telling meto do, not the VA, but the
people outside of the care andcommunity care.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
You got the mammogram no.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
No, I didn't get the mamm man where, that's what I'm
saying, and they had a fight,but um, but no, community care,
you'll know, is is what it's themiddleman for the va to get, if
you're like in a rural area, umthe the civilians or the
veterans to get care outside,like not at the VA, but at the
(26:50):
community hospital the nearestcommunity hospital, and so you
work with them a lot, but thenyou have to follow up with
appointments at the VA, thenappointments at the community or
wherever they put you orwherever they agree to you know,
have you, get looked at andit's just like the middleman,
middleman, middleman.
And I'll tell you what, if Ididn't do that, if I didn't
(27:12):
follow their rules, dude, I'vebeen paying out of my ass, you
know.
So it's expensive.
It is just just being there fora whole day, on a Friday, to
get treatment, treatment forfour, four weeks, five weeks,
you know my brand dude my wife'ssister had cancer and uh she
was like she said it's like thebill, that like the insurance
(27:34):
company it was.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
It was like one session of chemo was like a lot
yeah yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
so I was like man, I was.
I was very thankful that Ididn't jump the gun like real
I'm so thankful.
But it was me working with themand them like actually saying
thank you for you know, notbiting our heads off when I
talked to them like dude,there's no need to do that,
(28:00):
you're here to help me.
You know.
I'm just doing what I can toget you know, to get the help.
You know, and I don't know man,being in the VA system for so
long and seeing how a lot ofthis disgruntled vets treat the
workers there and are, I guess,demanding to be treated, you
(28:25):
know I've never been treatedwrong in the VA and I've been in
the VA in Tacoma, I've been inthe VA in Portland, spokane,
walla, walla, I go here.
I've never been treated poorly,but the fact that I've seen so
many incidents with vetstreating workers poorly, it's
(28:48):
through the roof, man and it isvery sad.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Oh, I believe it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
It's very sad and it's just like no one owes you
anything, nothing, you know, andI'm all.
I sit there and you can tellthe difference from the old
timers to the new timers.
New timers, man, we're quiet.
You know we do our fightingbehind closed doors.
You know, we're very subtle,like seriously we are, and then,
but the old timers man, they'redisgruntled, they're like going
(29:13):
to be in the trenches, man,fighting them, you know, out in
the open.
And I tell you what, man,there's a couple of times when I
told an old, old guy that, uh,to sit his ass down, because,
dude, he's making us look bad.
He looked at me, he sat his assdown.
But, dude, it's, it's, it'smessed up, man, it's messed up.
(29:34):
And I, I feel like this systemsthing with whether it's the
court I see that too because ofmy work as well, but mostly on
the va side man, people saying,you know, veterans don't get the
care that they need, they don'tget the care that they, I think
they don't get what they want,man, and so they just quit, they
(29:57):
just they give up or they'rethey have other excuses.
Man, that's what I feel.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You look at like the VA like 20 years ago versus
today.
I mean, like there were a lotof problems with the VA for a
long time but a lot of them likegot really like because of all
the backlash they got and peoplesetting themselves on fire and
shit, like they had some prettysolid revamps and like it's
better, it's a lot better, likea lot of those systems are a lot
better than they were 20, 30years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, that was a little fun, I better.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
A lot of those systems are a lot better than
they were 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That was a little fun .
Speaker 2 (30:31):
There was a case.
Dom where someone was trying toget treatment.
I don't remember exactly theyear.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I want to say like 18 , 20.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Phoenix, Arizona, I think I'd say 17, then 17, 18
time frame.
He continued to get therunaround and was waiting for
like hours, if not days, forlike a callback or treatment or
something, and then he ended uptaking his life by setting
himself, I want to say, in theit was in a waiting.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
It was in a waiting room.
I thought it was in the waitingroom.
I think I was in Phoenix, allright.
I think it was phoenix.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Phoenix is like one of the big, like horror story va
places and and that's a goodone to bring up there morpheus
just to like cherry on top of uh, nick and yours back and forth.
There is I agree it is thingsget better, um, uh, when people
you know point them out, and Ithink the overall system has
gotten a lot better, but then,at the same time, there are
things that get worse due to thequote-unquote good idea,
(31:28):
fairies and changes, and at thesame time, there's plenty of
these horror stories that we'retalking about.
Right, I mean, it does happen,but it's a huge system, like I'm
with Nick, where I give a lotof people benefit of doubt and
you see it, with like these, Igot to do this.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
I'm like dude, no, you don't, because there are
those dickheads right, you getthose guys that come in and they
say you're going to do this forme.
You're like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Exactly Versus.
I feel like Nick would come inlike, hey, this is what's going
on, how can we help each other,kind of a thing here.
I tell this to this secondclass that I that I often have
to deal with and I'm like, dude,you know you, would you catch a
lot more of those bees withhoney than you would with the
vinegar?
Cause he'll just come up hey, Ineed this.
I'm like, no, you don't, you'reasking me for this.
(32:14):
Okay, I will get to what youwant me to do as soon as I'm
done doing the thing that I amactually doing right now.
So settle down, you know, shutthe fuck up.
So I don't know, you get bothsides of it.
I don't think it's one or theother, especially in this case.
I wonder what happened withfucking Decker?
Was he not getting seen?
Again?
I go back to what meds was heon?
(32:35):
Was he not getting seen?
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Even his wife said in one of the articles.
She said she didn't even knowif he had been attempting
treatment.
He had gotten diagnosed but shedidn't know if he had done
anything with them.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Like yeah, but at the same time he was living out his
truck at the same.
At the time I was living outthis truck and yeah listen.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
but is that, is that necessarily someone who is
suffering?
Now again, I don't want to givethis son of a bitch any benefit
of the doubt here, but I wantto involve the convert.
I want to, yeah, evolve theconversation as far and, as you
know, propped up as I possiblycan here, and it's like if we
the conversation as far and, asyou know, propped up as I
possibly can here, and it's likeif we, if we're not doing the
(33:12):
nuance portion of it, we'regoing to be doing a disservice.
And is it really somebody whosufferings um, or is it always
somebody who's suffering um jobto look out for themselves?
I, you know, part of me saysyes, but also part of me is like
, not everybody has that ability, Not everybody is able to, for
one reason or another.
You know going through, youknow childhood trauma and you
(33:34):
know preferences and personalitytypes Like how, how can we
address?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
things like that in situations like this, you know,
yeah, you also have that choicetoo.
That's true A hundred percent.
If I want to get better, if I,if I want to get past my
childhood trauma, my militarytrauma, you know, like which I
have, and for the better I've.
I struggled recently because,you know, I had to do, um, the
(33:56):
graduation.
Not in my wildest dream did Ithink I would speak and
introduce, uh, future soldiers,you know.
So I've come a long way.
But for me to come this way, Iknew I had to make a change.
I knew I had to step up, notjust for my wife of almost 20
years, but also my, my daughter,who's a pain in the ass.
(34:17):
She's going to be 18.
My other, my middle daughter,who's going to be a high school
next year, and then my soon tobe seventh, uh, seven year old.
You know that this month youknow what I mean it's just like
for me to be where I'm at I hadto work on it For me to walk.
(34:38):
When I was getting out of theArmy, I had to go to physical
therapy.
I went to physical therapy forsix to eight years, man, nonstop
.
That was in the military andoutside.
I've had so many injuries.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I love those guys.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Physical therapy.
What's that?
Yeah, I love physical therapy.
I see them too and I love them.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, but to get where I'm at, what I'm saying is
, dude, you have to be on your Agame yourself, you know.
So I feel it was a choice.
If he didn't, or anybody elsesays that they didn't get the
help, I don't blame the systemwhatsoever.
Yes, there's some system flaws,of course, just like all of
(35:24):
them.
Like politics and bureaucraticbullshit, it's a big system,
exactly, exactly, yeah, it is,but, dude, no one could hold
your hand or exactly spank yourbutt to get the help that you
need.
You know, and you know, likepeople, mental, mental health
and the homeless that's a hugesubject too.
(35:45):
Who, whose fault, who's atfault?
A lot of them choose to behomeless because they don't want
to be around people.
What I'm saying is, dude peoplelike the armchair warriors that
are saying, oh, the systemfailed them, oh, we need to be
better on mental health.
(36:06):
The same guys yelling at thepoor va receptionist at the
front desk exactly, exactly, andit just it sucks because not
only does it look bad of thesystems but also other veterans
who have similar issues, correct, but I'm not going to go and
kill my three daughters that Ihave, you know what I mean, it's
(36:28):
just.
But so we're all like in thislittle cluster of like oh shit,
you're a veteran, you have ptsd,I don't have bpd, don't fucking
have that shit.
I I major depressive anxiety,you know that kind of thing.
But uh, it basically how thispanned out.
(36:49):
It makes it look like allveterans suffer, just like this
guy, and that we're like aticking time bomb, just like
this guy.
And that's how I see it, that'show I feel it, you know, and
having three kids myself andthen him doing his shit, it
really it really hits man.
It really hits because not ifthey're not blaming the va
(37:12):
system or army military systemin the court system and that
right there that's a big systemjudges have to do their
diligence, they have to do whatis right for, not just for the
ex but for the kids, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I think it's easy sometimes to blame.
It's easier to blame the systemas a whole than to just think
like maybe this guy just hadsome fucked up problems and
maybe he just like snapped andthat it's really shitty and it
sucks for that guy, but likethat doesn't inherently mean
that the system as a wholefailed.
Like I think that's an easythat's the easy answer, though,
(37:52):
right, it's like oh, the systemfailed, the system failed.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
This person like why is it like that?
though like go ahead don I wasgonna say like the borderline
personality disorder, if he didsuffer from it.
There's a disease which isonset from like early adulthood,
right like it can be like 18years old, so he could have had,
probably he could have easilyhad these problems, you know,
(38:14):
before he joined the military,or you know when he joined the
military, right from the right,from the beginning.
So this could have very easilybeen attributed to some sort of
childhood traumas that heendured prior to any kind of
military activity.
So to blame this on veteranaffairs seems a bit silly to me,
and to blame things on thesystem just seems to be an
(38:35):
all-encompassing, easy, easy way, easy way out.
You know the big, infamous they, you know, yeah, the system
what does?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
that like.
What does that mean?
Well, and like especially.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
I definitely agree with nick when he first said
people are like they're glassingover the bpd and they're the
system.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
What does that like?
What does that mean?
Well and like, especially, Idefinitely agree with nick when
he first said people are likethey're glassing over the, the
bpd and they're just pointingout the ptsd, the ptsd and
they're they're totallybypassing the other, like
screaming elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, the bigger of the two, yeah yeah, well, also,
I was gonna, um, I I wanted tolike also touch with this whole
rationalization thing, like Ithink that's what we're all
doing here.
When some fucked up thinghappens, right, it's like, like
you said, nick, you can't, youcan't imagine hurting one of
your, one of your girls, right,and somehow these, these fucked
(39:18):
up people do throughout theworld.
Right, it's like it's this isnot going as this is and it's
like so all of us who are leftafter the fact.
Yeah, like you said, dom, it'seasy to point that finger, but I
think, when we start this wholeconversation, I think this
whole like true crimefascination, the whole, when it
(39:38):
hits home, why it hits home, whypeople want to, whether it's
pointing to VAs or VA ormilitary service as like
culprits for this and that Ithink it's.
We just don't want, I don't know, we don't want it to happen
again, and so, however we canrationalize, people are
immediately going to rationalizeand then, as like we've talked
about, dom, it's so much easierfor a majority of people to
(39:59):
rationalize the easiest, thelowest hanging fruit possible,
which is, like you said, nick,like, oh, we've heard the VA has
problems, so it must be.
Oh, and we know PTSD is like aproblem.
Oh, it must be that you knowwhat I mean.
And I, and especially with likeCNN or whatever, I haven't
watched any of the local news oranything.
I've just been going off of acouple online articles and some
some grok, you know, sourcedTwitter sources.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
I love it and grok.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And that's how I caught up with this.
But whatever the narrative isgoing out there, it sounds like
it's going towards the typicallowest hanging fruit, right,
nick?
Yeah, oh yeah, the military.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, so that's not surprising.
People want easy answers.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That's not surprising .
Speaker 3 (40:38):
People just want easy answers, because life is not
really that clean cut.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, how do you have an hour?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
so these conversations require more
nuance yeah yeah, so so I Ifigured you know veteran myself
in the system myself.
I thought it's like you know, Ineed, I need to do my service
with my guys, dom included.
Shout out uk, shout out, yeah,shout out my mates over there,
(41:10):
you know, and just say you knowyour cunts, the cunts I was
waiting for you take yeahyeah, take another look please,
because man, it like really hitshome.
It's right down the road frommy house, you know, and it's
just being an outdoorsman itself, you know.
You can also look at the systemthat, uh, he was going back and
forth, he was living in and outof camping areas and if he was
(41:34):
using his veterans or militaryactive military or active duty
military bits in the, the rangerstations and stuff, you can
stay there for 14 days prettymuch for free or bare minimum
like 20 bucks out of all those14 days.
(41:54):
They really want to dosomething.
They're going to look at thatand they're going to change that
, because they hinted at himbeing at camping grounds, living
at camping grounds for X amount, you know, max days or 14.
It says that in every uhtrailhead or every campground,
uh area, right and uh, and ifthey want, they should look at
(42:19):
that.
You know what I mean and belike, okay, why are you staying
here, 14 days Maybe?
put it in a survey or aquestionnaire, or you know, just
change the way.
Yeah, yeah, right, exactly, Imean you can look at that as a
system failure, because 14 dayscan give you a lot of time to go
(42:39):
I don't know, is that mondaymidnight or monday morning
quarterbacking, though?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
because because like what?
What will we, what would, whatwould it find?
Like again, yeah, if he'sstaying 14 days, are you saying
because he's prepping to dosomething crazy, or are you
saying because he's homeless andtherefore we shouldn't let him?
What failure could anybodypoint to with ranger stations or
anybody who's letting theveteran come in and out of their
(43:10):
campground?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
I'm just saying, if you want to blame something, you
can blame that too if youreally look into it.
But no one blames that.
No one looks at the, the forestservice.
You know the, the, the benefitsthere you can stay 14 days max
and then go right down the road,go 14 days max, you know, and
they're kind of sounds likesigns of him.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, I want to go camping right now.
You hear me now here you talkabout this.
I'm like I kind of want to gocamping for 14 you can do it,
man probably not.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Probably not in those woods until they find that guy,
but you know yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, but what is you know?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
it gives you enough time to search.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
no, no, I don't think anybody said anything enough
time to think a little whatdelayed.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I unfortunately do have to hop off here.
We are catching a movie in 25minutes, 5 minutes down the road
and I gotta put pants on still.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I'm glad you're doing it no, we're gonna see
ballerina.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
It's that new it's the new John Wick movie with
Anna de Armas.
Female version.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Yeah, it's female John Wick with Anna de Armas no.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
I can't wait to see that.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
We're going to the cinema cafe, so I'm going for
the food and the pictures.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Well, get out of here I'm wasting time.
It was great to be on.
I love the conversations.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well, get out of here , I'm wasting time.
Morpheus, it was great to be on.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
I love the conversations.
I wish I could stay on longer.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You're good, morpheus , appreciate you making it up.
Yeah, of course.
See you guys.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
See ya Morpheus.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
How do I, how do I, how do I, now that we got rid of
him, that fucking cunt?
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, dude, now that we got rid of him, that fucking
cunt.
Yeah, dude, you're.
This is quietest I've everheard.
Yet I mean, I'm just taking itall in, no, but like seriously
though, like if you really lookinto it, people don't pay
attention.
Dude, you can go there 14 daysand, being military ex-mil
veteran and everything else, inthe state of Washington, I can
stay in a campground for free,national parks and everything
(45:21):
For free, yeah, yeah, and I canget in the national parks for
free, and I can stay at thecampground for a max of 14 days.
And so, oregon, I stay inOregon, dude, if I want to stay
14 days, it's going to be $20,man, it's like $2, $3 a day.
That's, that's heaven.
But that gives you enough timeto look around and do whatever
(45:43):
you want in and out of the woods.
Man, and I tell you what, onceyou're away from the campground,
once you're away from the, the,the highway, dude, anything
goes, man, anything goes, andthere's a lot of land in that
area.
You've probably been there,right, hermes?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
100.
Yeah, and again I'm.
Everything you described islike yeah, that sounds like a
good thing yeah, so, um, I don'tknow, man, it it's.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
I wanted to discuss the systems.
I think we did that, but I Ireally feel like, yeah, the
lowest hanging fruit.
I think that's where we're at,and me being a veteran and truly
turning my life around andeverything else and how this
podcast is going as well.
I'll be telling my story soon,but I feel like this was a good
(46:32):
start to start um, portrayingthat, uh, telling my story and
stuff like that.
So I really do, um, appreciateyou guys being on and everything
else and discussing thisbecause, um, it hurt a little
dude, it hurt.
Um, I I normally don't get intotoo many news stories, but when
(46:56):
you hurt your loved ones andeverything else and then people
are saying this and that it'sjust like, man, fuck off, I had
to speak.
I had to speak because I can'tdo a post because it doesn't hit
the same as a podcast or youknow an episode like this, so I
mean, it's an absolutelyabhorrent crime to take place.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
It's like one of the worst things somebody can do is
kill, that kill, well, kill anychildren, but kill your own
children, um, yeah yeah you knowit's like it's a, it's a.
It's a hard thing that I sortof rationalizing any crime is
pretty difficult, but trying torationalize the murder of
children is something that isquite beyond my own capabilities
(47:45):
it's an affront to nature.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It goes against every single bone in our body.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, it is as well, and if they were found and if
they were killed in the way,yeah, it is well as well and
like, and if they, if they werefound and if they were killed in
the way that it is described,with the suffocation and the zip
tie binding, that's quite athat indicates some sort of
premeditation as well.
Yeah, you know, this wasn'tjust him impulsively shooting.
(48:13):
This was like it's awful, it's aterrible thing to inflict on
somebody else, especially yourown kids, who haven't even
reached the age of 10 yet right,hermes, you know about my
brother-in-law, right did I tellyou?
Speaker 2 (48:32):
about that.
You might have to refresh mymemory, man all right.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So a few years back, right before covid hit like that
, that, that winter, my uhbrother in law went in the
mountains in the eastern sierrasin november.
Which eastern sierras dude didit's?
It's still freezing during thesummer, right, certain places,
certain parts, it's still wet.
(48:58):
You're going to have black eyes.
Well, november he decides toclimb a mountain, comes up
missing.
We were hoping the best.
Come out missing and deceased.
They didn't find the body fourdays later, you know.
And so if they're going to finda body, they they're gonna find
a body, they're gonna find abody.
But I feel him, I feel I don'tthink he's on the run dude, I
(49:20):
think he found the perfect spotwhere he's not gonna be found
and he's dead I was gonna asklike how all of this uh ends and
I wonder yeah yeah, I I wonderif that was, that isn't and
wasn't his goal the whole time,especially, like you said, don,
with that premeditation for hisgirls.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
I wonder if this wasn't a whole, especially with
I don't know, not especiallywith but with the diagnosis and
the experience and him being inthe area, knowing the area well
enough, like you like you'retalking about there, nick.
Um, yeah, I mean, if you'veever been to to those like
northern areas, like you said, Imean we used to joke sometimes,
(50:03):
you know, you had a little bittoo much to drink.
You'd be like, yeah, I couldsee how bigfoot would hide out
here.
It's just so fucking dense andthick and like I could get you
know and that's just like ajoking example of how fucking
wild and and dense and and yeah,an animal get to you out there.
Um, you know now, especiallynow during the summer, and
everything like I, I don't know,I I doubt that.
(50:25):
Um, if that was his, if thatwas his um idea, then yeah, I
doubt he's ever gonna be foundor yeah, well, I mean, it has
all.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
It has all the hallmarks of a murder suicide.
If he hadn't have gathered, ifhe hadn't have searched you know
, things like how to move tocanada, jobs in canada, things
like that I would have said, yes, classic murder, suicide thing.
Because if he was living out ofhis truck and the truck has
subsequently been abandoned,yeah, um, yeah, you know, that's
like, that's a significantpiece of evidence that they
found.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, I do want to know the handprint, the bloody
handprint on the truck tailgate.
That's where I want to knowmore about that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
I mean, I don't.
I was going to say we don'tknow, at least not that I found
the the complete, like coroner'sreport on his little girls, so
and what he might be doingbefore and afterwards.
Well, that's what I'm.
I don't.
The blood I mean it could be alot of.
It could be all kinds offucking things, who knows.
I think, uh, the end of the day, if we're gonna wrap this into
(51:24):
fucked up shit that happened is,um, I honestly I hope he is
dead.
You know that's that's the endof it.
Let's be done with this.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
And you know I don't know and in the grand scheme of
things too, hermes I.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
I just want people to know, man, not everybody's like
that, yeah exactly no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah not everyone's like
that, and the system is not afailure well, if and if you're
having problems with the system,or if you're having problems
with, you know, mental health orwhatever, like, reach out, I
know nick will pick up, I know Iwill pick up, I know dom will
(51:59):
pick up, having you know.
You know, having been in all ofthese situations in terms of,
like, I call dom, he picks up,he calls me, I pick up, it does
not matter.
Um, do it guys?
You don't.
Uh, yeah, I don't.
Like you said, there is noexcuse for getting this bad.
I I hate when the article's likeoh, there were so many signs
and then somebody said, yeah,he's about to do an extreme.
(52:20):
It's like, okay, all of those,all of those you know
quote-unquote warning signs,again after the fact do nothing
but prior.
When you notice those things,like my buddy uh, I don't want
to put him on blast, just hadlike a bad breakup, and
immediately I was like dude,come down for this, you know
Friday.
And he's like, no, I don't knowif I really want to hang out.
I was like no, no, no, you'rehanging out.
(52:40):
And then it was me and anotherbuddy and the same thing.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
The other buddy said he's like, yeah, what you know,
like I mean a breakup was thething that got me on the first
episode of the scuttlebuttpodcast.
So the reason why I'm here, Imean.
But then again, in myexperience, um, reporting
someone to the mental healthservice can do more harm than
good.
Um, it's happened before.
I've done it before.
Um, I talked about the storyonce on on the podcast and I was
like um and the subsequentthings that happened after that
(53:19):
were quite, quite heavy to dealwith.
So, um, but if, if there issomeone struggling that you know
, encourage them to reach outand just sort of sit there and
say, oh, I recognize the warningsigns before everything
happened.
You know, it's like, I feel likeif you, if you're a friend or
someone close to this person whois clearly suffering from some
(53:42):
sort of mental affliction, it'syou have some sort of moral
obligation to point them in thedirection in which they can get
help.
Yeah, yeah.
But then again, it's likethere's people, there's people
who suffer from these things andthey find comfort in their
mental affliction because it'sall they ever know.
And they, you know, it's peoplewho don't want to get treatment
(54:05):
for depression or anxiety,because they can't imagine a
world in which they would livewithout depression or anxiety
and they just stick to theirways.
Or perhaps you know findingyeah, because depression is such
an all-encompassing thing, theymight not see a point to going
getting help.
They think that they'recompletely unfixable, which is
(54:25):
also not the case.
So if there is somebodystruggling, isn't anyone anyone
who's listening?
If there is somebody who'sstruggling, yeah, encourage them
to go and seek help, please.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Reach out.
Reach out too, don't be afraid.
And being a mandated reporterman, I definitely understand the
relationships, friendships.
They turn sour.
A little intent and why you didwhat you did.
They come around and they, theyend up appreciating you and
appreciate what they uh, youknow what, what we did and how
(55:01):
we did it and how we went aboutit.
At the moment they don't andwon't, but at the end, at the
end of the day or a couple weeksfrom from then, you know, after
you call, then they come around.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
They do.
These things take time.
These things take time to dealwith, you know.
They take a long time tocontrol, to fix, to deal with,
to mend.
But nothing in life which isgood is going to come easy to
you.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I said said you got to do the work.
Armies what's up.
Why are you so quiet?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
dude, I'm just taking it in.
I I'm not, uh, I don't have anyalcohol in my system, so not as
a interruptive and chatty it'sa heavy.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
It's a heavy topic as well, but it's a very it's a
very heavy topic yeah, and Iappreciate you guys
understanding that and andcoming on, you know, I, I, yeah,
I, I really being being veteran, being having issues being
where from started from thebottom, now I'm here, I, I feel
I'm here, you know, um, I reallyfeel, uh, it's, it's, it's a
(56:12):
negative.
You know, anybody in the system, military vet, whatever, once
something happens, dude, it'sjust like everybody thinks all
veterans are like that, or allveterans, you know all military.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
It casts the wrong light, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, man.
So I was like you know whatI've had, my falls, but guess
what I've worked on it.
But you've got to be thatperson to want it, you know.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Just like addiction.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, dom.
I appreciate your closing words, man, for real, thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
I feel like there should be a more nuanced
discussion about this as well.
This veteran affairs thing andjust everyone blaming people as
like a blanket thing is justsupremely unhelpful.
Yeah, and shouldn't, it shouldnot be allowed to happen.
But you know, people, peoplehave a chronic lacking of nuance
.
Not everybody, obviously, but alot of people have a chronic
(57:07):
lacking of nuance in theirdiscussions and things and they,
uh, they don't really, theydon't really know how to have a
conversation without talking.
These black and white, um,these black and white statements
you know, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
So, dom, when am I gonna have you all by myself
anytime you like me no?
Speaker 3 (57:29):
anytime you like.
Anytime you like, um, yeah, I'ma, I'm a free man most days
well, I'm shocked that you came,man.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
You were like I'm on, okay sweet, all right, yeah
yeah, no, no, I was.
Speaker 3 (57:44):
I was like you know what, like this, this has been
my.
This has been a strange year.
This has been my year of justgoing on various different
podcasts.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
It's been a lot of fun, so I've been like hopefully
, you know, this continues oninto the future yeah you should
get your own man, you shouldstart your own start on, though
I don't know why I start on.
Speaker 3 (58:04):
I've got no idea, but no dude no, real, are you?
Speaker 1 (58:08):
kidding me, you're, you're, you're a smart young guy
.
I say young because you're wayyounger than I am, but still
still, you're the scholar.
Bro Intellect, you're sendingme shit from foreign languages.
You sent me that message.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
I had to go to.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Google.
Speaker 4 (58:24):
Translate it was French.
It was French.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
It was German.
I would have known, because Iwas stationed over there and I
did take two years of German.
Yeah, yeah, but you, you didsomething French.
I thought it was Spanish, butit was French.
See you see, what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, yeah, I'll do it in German next time.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And then you know, if there's aDom, there's going to be.
Have Hermes, just alone Hermes.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Let's do it right now .
I'm free today and I need tobust out some content.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Let's do it Now.
Where's the content on your?
On yours, or are you?
Speaker 2 (59:00):
I don't care, I'll put, I'll start recording on my
end or you will go on another.
We'll do a back to back episodewith you, nick.
He's always talking smack andhe's always like, oh, I can't
get them on.
I am always trying.
I'm about to go for anothermission for the rest of this
month.
So yeah, I mean I can't ever.
We can't ever align the stars.
(59:21):
We just have to make it happen.
We have to put the work in.
Nick Got to put the work in Allright, no time like the present
, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Do you have a topic for yours right now?
Speaker 2 (59:39):
do you have a topic for yours right now on my um?
I mean, I can figure it out.
Let me find my notes, because Ialways have notes ready to go.
I mean I was, uh, yeah, Ialways have a topic, dude, I can
, and I, you know me, I can riffon whatever I can.
I can just start, let me seewhat's my next.
Uh, again, no time like thepresent.
We could do whatever we want.
I don't care if Dom's free andstill chatting, we can do it now
.
Like I said, I can startrecording for my end here.
Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
I'm still free if you two just want to do an episode,
just you two, because I feellike this is a special occasion.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
If there's Hermes, there's Dom, there's Dom,
there's Hermes alright, alright,you know what I can stick
around seems, it seems like it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
I have my notes here.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Dom, start your own podcast.
Man, have us on Hermes dude.
You know it's always a pleasurethe guys, the people, the
listeners.
I know I have been on for a bit, but you guys know Scuttlebutt.
If you guys want to hear someriffraff, some opinionated fools
and some C-U-N-T's, you go toScuttlebutt.
(01:00:40):
But they're good guys.
Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
They're great guys.
They intellect themselves.
You can say it, you can say it,you can say it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Oh, the opinionated cunts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yes, okay, there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Is that better, Dom?
Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I hate that.
Perfect you've got.
You've passed that.
You passed the citizenship test.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
You can move here now thanks mate, thanks uh, so uh,
until next time, guys.
Thank you see.
On the flip side, hermy send mean?
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
uh an invite, all right yeah, we'll just do it
here, man, we, man, I'm pullingout everything that we're
talking about.
We already have Zoom open.
Why open another one?
I'm just going to, like I saidI've got, I have my device up
here, no worries, I'm going torecord from here exactly as we
are, and we'll just go fromthere.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
That's how we do End meeting for all.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
You just got to end the recording.
You don't have to end themeeting.
We'll see you next time.
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