Ep. 64 Military Money Management: Insights from the National Foundation for Credit Counseling

Episode Transcript
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Tom (00:00):
Militarily Speaking, Episode 64, National Foundation for Credit Counseling.

Jodi (00:05):
This episode, we talk with Bruce McClary, Senior Vice President, Membership
and Media Relations with the NationalFoundation for Credit Counseling.

Tom (00:25):
Welcome to Militarily Speaking, brought to you by Armed Forces Bank.
This is Tom McClain and Jodi Vickery.
I'm the Regional MilitaryExecutive for Armed Forces Bank.
Jody is the Executive Vice President,Director of Consumer Banking.

Jodi (00:38):
So again, welcome to our show.
We're excited to have you listeningand learning about our guest,
Bruce McCleary with the NationalFoundation for Credit Counseling.
I'm going to tell the audiencejust a little bit about you, Bruce.
So hang in with us.

Tom (00:49):
Bruce, we decided to use all of the eight bios that you sent to me.

Jodi (00:54):
I've got about six pages and they're

Tom (00:55):
going to all be repeated.
Okay.
No, please.
We are going to take properthe first one you sent to us.
So we'll, we'll do that.

Jodi (01:01):
I'm only going to use a snippet and it'll be impressive.
Right.
Yeah.
Bruce McClary is the senior vicepresident of media relations and
membership for the national foundationfor credit counseling or NFCC.
As the lead spokesperson, Bruce providescommunication support for the nation's
largest and longest serving network ofnonprofit credit counseling organizations.
He also manages activitiesfocused on industry collaboration

(01:24):
and membership growth.
With decades of experience in thefinancial services sector, Bruce
often draws upon his direct experienceas a debt collector, lender, and
NFCC certified credit counselorwhen speaking to journalists and
managing financial wellness research.
During his career, he has providedone on one financial counseling to
thousands of consumers, trained financialeducators, and reached millions more

(01:48):
through print and broadcast media.
Bruce has been featured as a financialexpert for the nation's top news
outlets, including USA Today, CNBC,NBC News, The New York Times, The Wall
Street Journal, CNN, Market Watch,Fox Business, and hundreds of local
media outlets from coast to coast.
So

Tom (02:05):
he's been And now

Jodi (02:06):
militarily speaking.
I know.
We'll have to update your bio.
He's going to,

Tom (02:09):
he's going to retire after this one.
Cause that tops, tops the

Jodi (02:13):
capstone for any good career

Tom (02:16):
bucket list completed.
Bruce, did we cover all the outlets?
I mean, that, that's a plethora of outlets

Bruce McClary (02:22):
and I don't want you to.
Cover all of the alphabets, wedon't, we need, we don't need
to spend all our time on that.

Jodi (02:29):
That'll be the extended podcast version.
So welcome, Bruce.
It's an honor to have you on our show.
Thank you for being here with us.
I think to start with, can you justtell our audience who might not know
what your organization does or whatit's about, give them sort of a macro
view and then we'll dive off into.
I'm sure all sorts of different things.
A potpourri of questions.
Oh,

there's another good word.
I like that.
I didn't realize it wasgoing to be a spelling bee.

Jodi (02:56):
Just don't say potpourri.
It will

be fine.
The National Foundation for CreditCounseling is a non profit organization.
And it started back in 1951 and wasprimarily dedicated at that time
to promoting financial educationthat leads to financial wellbeing.
And since that time, our missionhas remained largely the same
as our services have grown andour member network has grown.

(03:21):
We have nonprofit agencies that.
Serve all 50 states and all U.
S.
territories and provide a range ofservices like credit counseling, debt
management programs, pre purchasehomebuyer education, foreclosure
prevention, student loan repaymentcounseling, small business owner
financial coaching, and people canaccess those services by visiting NFCC.

(03:44):
org.
We're calling the tollfree number 1 800 388 2227.
And again, these are nonprofit servicesthat are focused on helping people
improve their financial well being.

Jodi (03:55):
Really runs the whole gamut of a lot of financial products.

Tom (03:58):
And how appropriate the timing of this podcast too in today's.
It's not going on.
So let's, we're going to dig right intothe, what you brought to my attention,
Bruce, and it's probably some good datathat comes out of this, the financial
stress forecast and debt score.
The results show that there are growingdebt balances and financial pressures.

(04:18):
So why don't you take a little bit oftime to walk through the results that
you are seeing from these studies.
Thanks.

Yeah, this is, this is something, the financial stress
forecast and the consumer debt scorethat was created by the NFCC last year.
We launched it last year as away to blend proprietary data
from our counseling sessions.
This is anonymized data thatfocuses on for tuning in.
The circumstances that people arefacing as they're coming to our member
agencies for credit counseling, forfinancial counseling, and possibly

(04:48):
enrolling in our debt management plans.
And it combines that with the quarterlyfed data that helps us determine the
current and future level of debt relatedfinancial pressures on consumers.
And with the score, we're ableto confidently predict where
those levels of debt delinquencyand charge off are headed.

(05:08):
And what the resulting burdenis going to be on consumers.
And so for that, we have what we call thedebt burden scale, and it's a scale from
zero to 10 and zero is debt free bliss.
So you can pretty much extrapolatefrom that what 10 might be, you
know, the world is on fire andpeople are running and screaming.
The financial stress forecast right now.

(05:31):
Is continuing to trend upwards andwe'll talk about the trend and what
that's been over the past few years,but it's essentially driven by the
fact that consumers are having moredifficulty repaying their unsecured debt.
When I say unsecured debt, I'mtalking about credit card debt,
signature loans, things like that.
So right now we're, we're right.

(05:51):
At the cusp of, of stage six on thescale, which is labeled as tightening
the belt and at this stage, levelsof household debt make it necessary
for people to make sacrifices, buyingless at the grocery store, preparing
meals at home, maybe possibly delayingvacation, really cutting back on some
of the things that they have alreadyin their budget and even cutting back

(06:14):
on savings, which is really concerning.
The trend over the past coupleof years, few years, is that
the score has increased by 66.
8 percent since 2021 thirdquarter when it was at 3.
4.
So it's gone from 3.
4 to right, you know, knockingon the door of stage six.

(06:35):
In just a short amount of time since2021 and what we've seen as we've
looked back, we applied this scoringmodel to all the data retroactively
going back years and years and years.
This is the most significant increaseover that short a period of time that
we've seen as far back as we go withour data, so it's not necessarily

(06:57):
where we are on the scale right now.
That's most concerning,although it is concerning.
It's how fast we've gotten there.

Tom (07:03):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And could we go from,like you said, from 3.
4 to almost 6.
0?
Could we go to seven oreight just as quickly?

Yeah.
I mean, that's, that'svery likely it's possible.
I mean, there's some things that couldslow that down or turn things around,
but in the near term, it doesn't seemto, and you can kind of think about this.
If you look at the economy right now,where it is, there still is a significant
gap between people's spendability.
And market prices for basic necessities.

(07:33):
I mean, if you, if you, three yearsago, if you went to the grocery store
with 75, it would take you a hundreddollars to buy those same things today.
So that's, that's the realitypeople are dealing with.
And salaries haven't all, allsalaries haven't completely caught
up with the increased cost of living.
So people more and more are livingpaycheck to paycheck and they don't

(07:54):
have room for those extra things.
And sometimes it leads peopleto rely more frequently.
On their available line of credit to fillthat gap in their budget and so as people
do that and they run up their line ofcredit that becomes less manageable and
you get into that brick wall scenario.
So that's kind of where we are now.
We're approaching that brick wall scenariowhere people are running out of room

(08:17):
with their available line of credit.
To use as a lifeline and thatdebt is becoming unmanageable.
And when that debt becomes unmanageable,they have nowhere else to go.
You're not going to be able to goout and get another credit card.
If your credit score is tanking becauseyou're missing payments and people
are closing your lines of credit.
So that's the nightmare scenario thatcould be ahead if people don't start

(08:39):
reaching out and getting help right away.
And we're seeing more people dothat, but I think there are even
more out there that need that help.

Tom (08:46):
But Bruce, they probably then turn to either family and friends, which can
be a whole nother conversation, or theygo to the non traditional or non bank
financial services providers, right?
Because they, what choices do they have?
Maybe that's the only thing they know andthey're not familiar with other routes,
but that's where they land sometimes.

Well, that's, that's a really good observation because it
does happen frequently that peoplewill Turn to family and friends, or
they will in a crisis situation respondto an advertising offer or something
they perceive as a lifeline withouttaking time to thoroughly check it out.

(09:26):
And so you're going tohave two situations.
They're going to have peopleborrowing from their family.
And believe me, in the years that I'vebeen working as a counselor, that can
ruin family relationships when you startturning to family and borrowing, getting
a lifeline, and then just as dangerous,if not more so, is reaching out to some
of these questionable offers that arepromising quick fixes without taking

(09:50):
the time to check out if they're, ifthey're suitable for your circumstances,
if they're, if they're helpful at all.

Tom (09:55):
Bruce, I'm going to fact check something.
Ready?
And I don't believe everything youread on Google, but the national
credit card debt number is what?

Jodi (10:05):
Like how much a household has outstanding?
Or just the

total sum.
Oh, it's over a trillion,

Tom (10:10):
right?
It's 1.
14 trillion with a T, right?

Yeah.
And those numbers aregoing to be updating soon.
But yeah, as of last, as of lastcheck, it was, it was one, it
was over a trillion dollars.

Tom (10:20):
So you've been in this business long enough.
What, when was it in the billions,like two years ago or 20 years ago?

Yeah, it wasn't long ago.
It was, it was a few years ago when itwas in the billions and the high billions.
So we just recently crossed thethreshold of, of hell, basically
1 trillion territory, but that's,that was a recent development.
I mean, going way back to when I wasstarting as a counselor, I mean, it
was, if you would have come to meand said, Oh yeah, in your career,
you'll see the amount of creditcard debt go to over a trillion.

(10:50):
I probably would have, wouldhave dismissed that as, as some
kind of panic and fantasy, butit's, it's actually come true.
It's here.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jodi (11:00):
As you're describing that debt score, it made me think of the,
the visual in your doctor's officewhere it's the pain scale and it's
like the happy face on one end andthe not so happy face on the other.
It's kind of like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We frowny face territory.
For sure.
For sure.
So we've done some surveys here.
You know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Armed forces bank.
We serve the military community andfolks that are in and around that space.

(11:24):
And so we've done some surveysourselves on military families, how
their finances are affected by what'sgoing on in the world around them.
But I wanted to invite you to talkabout the Harris poll that has
some key takeaways that directlyaffect military members and their
families and veterans and whatfindings it held that our audience
might find of interest or a value.

Yeah, it's a, it's, it's sort of ties into some of the things that
we focus on with the financial stressforecast and the, and the debt score,
because it just continues observationof some of the underlying issues
that come forward in the Harris poll.
So Jody, when we surveyed theAmerican public, we did that
back in January of this year.
So it was back at the beginningof the year and that's.

(12:06):
pretty much the regular cadence.
We'll put the survey out in thefield at the beginning of the year.
We'll report the results around April,which is financial literacy month.
And then we'll follow up witha focus on military in May.
And it gives us an opportunity tolook at all the different groups that
are surveyed, but just a little bitof background on the Harris poll.
We've been conducting the surveywith Harris poll since 2007.

(12:28):
So that's a really rich historyof data and trend lines that
we can, we can look back to.
And.
We've conducted the survey to gauge thefinancial knowledge and well being of U.
S.
adults, and until 2014, it was prettymuch focused on the general population.
So it was just a single survey thatwent out to all, you know, to, to, to

(12:49):
everybody in the general population,regardless of their career, their
focus, just to get an overview.
But in 2014, we started surveying.
Military groups and we started takinga closer look at active duty service
members and veterans and in that year,we said, Hey, this is interesting.
We should continue doing thisand we were fortunate to find

(13:10):
sponsors to continue that journey.
So we skipped a year 2015, butwe resumed the survey in 2016.
And what we did in 2016 is we we added.
Military spouses to round out that surveyand get a, get a good look at the entire
military household as well as veterans.
And so it's really, it's, it's beengreat to manage that survey and, and

(13:33):
to grow that survey into something thatgives us a little bit of more insight
into the financial decisions, thechallenges and the opportunities that
are presented to military families.
And for this year's survey.
A common theme across all of the differentareas where we, where we focused is
financial uncertainty and strain.

(13:55):
So when I say a common theme,that is applicable to the general
population, to active duty servicemembers, to spouses and to veterans.
There's almost no difference acrossevery one of the survey populations
in terms of the fact that thatcomes up frequently in the results.
And we can break this down a little bitwith the widespread financial stress.

(14:17):
Many Americans are feeling financiallyinsecure, partly due to the debt
burdens that they're carrying andthis feeling that they're unable to
reach their long term financial goals.
Then there is, of course, Iguess, an unfortunate development
in this year's survey about thecomfort level of financial aid.
Of growing your debt level despite therisks, and this could be an offshoot

(14:40):
of just survival, getting by usingyour available credit as a lifeline, a
significant portion of the populationis willing to take on or maintain high
levels of debt, even with the potentialfor continued economic downturns.
So if people what that's telling us is.
If you have a line of credit, if it'savailable, you may be in a situation

(15:02):
where you feel pressured to useit regardless of the consequences.
And so that's very unfortunate.
It's deeply concerning.
There's also a need formore financial education.
The survey identified thatthere's a growing recognition.
People are self aware.
Of the fact that they, they may notknow as much as they need to know
when they're going out into themarketplace, when they're looking

(15:22):
at financial services, when they'remaking decisions about their budget.
And then this is always fun totalk about at Valentine's day, but
relationship stress due to finances,financial management is a source
of conflict within households.
So both the general population andmilitary families are impacted by
this with some avoiding conversationsabout finances altogether.

(15:46):
Because of the potentialstress that that causes.
So those are just some ofthe things that came forward.
But with specific focus on themilitary, there are three things
that I guess are key takeaways here.
First of all, use of nonbank financial services.
This isn't something that's necessarilyuncommon among the military population
based on data from prior years thatthat has consistently revealed high

(16:11):
percentages of payday loan utilizationamong enlisted members of the military.
That trend continues.
So there's no surprise there.
And it does in just as a pointof information, what we're seeing
in our survey has been consistentin that it is higher than what Is
coming forward in the status offorces survey conducted by the D.

(16:32):
O.
D.
So that's certainly somethingthat's a debatable point.
Maybe maybe for a later discussion,

Jodi (16:38):
but

but we're seeing we're seeing high utilization of payday loans.
What we're also seeing, though.
Has to do with emerging financialproducts such as buy now pay later
and cryptocurrency creeping into thepicture and our survey found that
service members and their spousesare using cryptocurrency at two to

(17:00):
three times the level of people in thegeneral population and among veterans.

Jodi (17:06):
Interesting.
I wonder why.

Yeah, that's so that's that.
So non bank financial services as abroader category is one of the three
gig work is also another area thatkind of stood out in the survey.
And just as in recent years when we'veasked the question, gig work remains
common among active duty militaryhouseholds who report about half are
using side jobs to make ends meet.

(17:30):
So that continues, and that is a higherpercentage than the general population.
The last item has to do with theValentine's Day topic, and that's
communication about financeswithin the military household.
So it is, it certainlyis something that impacts
relationships in military families.
Often, The civilian spouseis the household CFO.

(17:53):
They're the chief financial officer ofthe household, and they're making key
decisions about how to manage financesand times of deployment or throughout
the year under other circumstances.
And what our survey found is that militarycouples place a high degree of value in
honesty about finances, higher, a higherdegree than the general population, which
is great, but they admit that discussionsabout money often lead to conflict.

Jodi (18:19):
Yeah, no, I believe that.
I mean, because even, I mean, exacerbated,I would think in a military household,
because a misstep can not only costfinancial matters in your household,
but it can cost job security, securityclearances, and I think it's, it's hard
sometimes when that military familyisn't under one roof physically, those

(18:40):
conversations are even more difficult.
So when you've got one spousestateside, one spouse overseas
or across the country, Yeah.
It's harder when you get shortperiods of time on the phone to
have a deep, meaningful, seriousconversation about finance when you
haven't talked to him for a while.

Tom (18:56):
And other things come to the surface.
Yeah.
Kids and

Jodi (18:59):
life.

Tom (19:00):
Yeah.

Yeah.
Nothing, nothing, nothinglives in a vacuum.

Tom (19:04):
Yeah.
Do you think I'm going to backcheck you on something else too?
You ready?
The military spouseunemployment rates like 21%.
Is that right?

That, that sounds, that sounds about what I'm hearing on

Tom (19:17):
when data sourced and what time of the year.
But to me it would seem like that wouldhave an impact on the stress levels.

Well, it does.
And I know, I know that the issueof difficulty finding employment
after, after relocation is anissue that is being addressed.
By the different branchesof service and the DOD.
So I know that it's, it's, it's enoughof a concern that there's an effort
underway to try to make this easier forspouses who have to uproot and relocate.

(19:50):
Because of, because of new baseassignment to help them find jobs in
their new community, that's alwaysgoing to be a challenge though.
I don't see too many easy answersthere, but certainly there are things
that can be done to make it eveneasier and to help facilitate the
reconnection for that community.
Continued career track that they, thatthey may want, but before we continue

(20:12):
on that, though, there's one groupthat I missed in my points, and I
want to make sure that I address them.
And that's veterans.
You know, the veterans are partof the survey, and we're talking
about resources to help spousesand in connecting with employment.
Resources are Thank you.
Something that comes up in the veteransresponse is because veterans agree
in a significant majority that whilethere are some resources available

(20:36):
to promote their financial wellbeing, there's still a need for more.
So that presents opportunities for a lotof people to get in there into the, into
this space and to provide, whether it'sfinancial education or whether it's help
understanding different products andservices in the financial marketplace,
I think there's an opportunity there.
For more.

Tom (20:56):
Agreed.
Thank you for rememberingto bring that up.
So the shifting gears now, so thecredit counseling landscape, I've
had a little history with that too.
And I, I've been in banking 35years, so I'll be in the, in
certain parts of the country.
There might not have been themost, most credit counseling
companies that had integrity, right?
And I'm just going to sayit bluntly like that too.
So they had a little media, mediaguffaws along the way too, and

(21:20):
their brand and their image wasa little tarnished back then.
And, and you've been around since 1951.
Maybe not you, Bruce, but NFCC has, yeah,we'll talk about that with Jody, but so

Jodi (21:33):
I have not either been around since

Tom (21:35):
1951.
I'm getting closer.
So do you have any guidance that, Imean, you've got instant credibility
just because of the, it shouldcome with the territory that you
have the years of experience.
Just like we think we do 1907.
At Armed Forces Bank, you get sort ofthat unconditional trust that you're
dealing with a reputable organizationthat has the skillset and the resources

(21:56):
and the expertise to help you.
And so the guidance for people thatare at that level six, now it seems
like people are in that world.
Do you have some advice or guidanceon how they should vet consumer
credit counseling agencies?
Are there different sites or betterbusiness bureau or things where they can
say, you know, That's an organizationwith which I want to do business.

Yeah, that's I appreciate the question because I will say this also
touches on the increasing complexity ofthe financial service marketplace and
how difficult the choice is for peoplewho are find themselves in a position
where they have to reach out to somebody.
They don't know who to get help whenthey're struggling to overcome a debt

(22:39):
challenge or need help understandinghow to get their budget back on track.
And there's always been some degreeof, of difficulty at making that
decision going all the way back.
And the NFCC has been around since 1951.
Again, I have not, but the organizationhas just for clarity, but the, but
the designation, uh, that, thathelps people Identify whether they're

(23:04):
getting to connected with a sourcethat can be trusted that's going to
protect the confidentiality of thatdiscussion and is going to be able to
provide informed and impartial adviceto help people better understand.
The choices they have in front of themand confidently take the next step.
I would say first start looking forthe, the NFCC seal, the National

(23:25):
Foundation for Credit Counseling,because it has been the, the stamp of,
somebody used to compare it with a goodhousekeeping seal of approval, but that's
sort of a 1951 reference, isn't it?
But it, but it is sort of that indicatorthat you are dealing with some, an
organization that's trusted and that hasexperience, integrity, and knowledge.

(23:47):
That you can depend on to help youmake those difficult choices about
turning your situation around.
And so that's important to do when you're,when you're looking for an organization.
And I think nonprofit credit counselingis a good starting point, no matter
the decision you ultimately make aboutwhat to do next, because a nonprofit
credit counseling agency and an NFCCcertified credit counselor can help you

(24:11):
understand the choices you have to make.
So that you do pick something that'ssuitable, whether you continue working
with that nonprofit agency or whetheryou go elsewhere to find, find your
answers, at least you can confidentlymake a decision because the counselor
helps you understand those choices betterand helps you take a closer look at a

(24:31):
situation that, quite frankly, You may nothave wanted to look at so closely before

Tom (24:38):
good point.
Yeah, you and that really took usto the follow up question about
certification of a credit counselorand the seal, if you will, of approval
that that's a designation where that'sa good starting point for someone.
Because just like whether you'rebuying a car, which I'm doing that now,

Jodi (24:54):
you're trying to, I

Tom (24:55):
know baby steps.
Or when you're, when you're lookingat different sites like Yelp and
others that are looking for what,what are the reviews out there?
Right?
So do your homework, right?
My advice to probably your advice, dothe due diligence, do the homework.
Don't just go in there andtake the time to do it right.

Exactly.
And an important thing to note again,when you're pressured and you feel that
your situation is coming apart fasterthan you can get a handle on it, there
is still at least a minimal amount oftime that you should give yourself.
To look at the details of theoptions you have and determine which

(25:34):
is the best for your situation.
But don't just rush towards an offerbecause you think it's going to help
resolve your situation in a 30 second ad.
Maybe they described all thesegreat things they're going to do.
You need to check it out first.
Because that thing that looks like alife preserver might be a cinder block.

Jodi (25:52):
All right.

Tom (25:54):
Well, I'm going to quote that one.
Talk about that around here.
Lots of application.
So your website, we'll say it again, nfcc.
org.
You have a very, very impressiveboard of trustees, a great
council on member affairs.
So talk, talk about, I know you've beenthere since 2015, but you've got to have
a good feel and handle on the compositionof those two organizations that I mean,

(26:18):
how do you get that group of people?
How do you garner their support andwhat kind of engagement do you get
from the people that are involvedsort of behind the scenes for NFCC?

Ooh, now we're getting into the super secret sauce recipe.
Should we move on?

Jodi (26:31):
Pop popcorn.
Now

I am ready to rip the lid off.
Let's talk about it.
Yeah.
So The, I think one of the, one of thegreat things about the NFCC and the
organization and how it's structuredis the fact that we do bring a lot of
voices to the table when it comes toguiding the mission of the organization,

(26:55):
ensuring that we put consumers firstand keeping our finger on the pulse of
what's happening so that we're preparedto serve consumers in the future.
And and continue to grow theorganization and to keep things going.
So first and foremost, I mean, weare an organization that supports
our members ability to provideservices in their communities.

(27:17):
And these are the nonprofitcredit counseling agencies that
are part of the NFC network.
So to do that.
We have a board of trustees, whichis made up of leaders from a range
of industries, including financialservices, education, you know, all of
those areas where consumer interests area priority, and so they are external to

(27:38):
the NFCC network and provide valuableleadership and guidance towards
keeping us on track with our mission.
The other part of the equationis the Council on Member Affairs,
and it may not be unique.
It seems unique to us based on the workthat we do, but it gives our member
agencies a similar voice at the table.

(28:00):
So it is part of the governancestructure and it includes elected.
Members who are CEOsof the member agencies.
So the membership gets togetherat our annual meeting and they
elect representatives to be a partof this council member affairs.
So that way we are including a voicein our, in our governance process that

(28:21):
comes from the front lines of counselingand lets us know what's needed and
keeps us focused on what's important.

Jodi (28:29):
That's awesome.
It would not have that, what do you callit, the ivory tower mentality, yeah.

Tom (28:34):
Just high level decisions and not really connecting with what the
real issues are facing the communitiesthat you're supposed to serve.

Jodi (28:41):
That's great to get all the different insights.
As a military spouse, I understandhow unpredictable life can be.
Whether it's a PCS move or justeveryday expenses, money can be tight.
That's why it's so important to havea checking account that works for you.

Tom (28:57):
Armed Forces Bank offers our Access Freedom checking accounts
designed with military families in mind.
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Jodi (29:19):
And with about 75 percent of our team affiliated with the
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Tom (29:32):
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(29:54):
Kind of

Jodi (29:57):
sticking with the theme of things that are available
and visible on your website.
Which is

Tom (30:01):
what?

Jodi (30:02):
www.
nfcc.
org Correct.
I want to say that often and repeated.
Our folks will go there and they'llsee a plethora of resources.
There's that word again, right?
Tom likes the word plethora.
A lot of these syllabic, these

Tom (30:16):
three syllables, a

Jodi (30:17):
plethora.
Is that how we decided?
Bruce

Tom (30:20):
says plethora.
He's been saying it wrong his whole life.
We can say it's a smorgasbord,

Jodi (30:25):
a cornucopia of resources.
One might say blogs, press releases.
So if somebody were to go there and.
Need sort of, you know, cookiecrumb trailer, the lifeline or the,

Tom (30:36):
yeah,

Jodi (30:37):
so what would, what would you say are top of mind?
Like, go here first, look intothis as a, as a first step
and then proceed from there.

Well, the first thing I would say, and this isn't, I don't
want to be too self congratulatory,but we have a great team.
team that works on our website, andthey do a lot of very hard work to
make it to make it focused on the needspeople have when they look for help from
organizations like our NFCC members.
So we try to make the landingpage as streamlined as possible.
So the things that you can find there mostimmediately, first of all, is a website.

(31:08):
Is a way to connect with an NFCC certifiedcredit or housing counselor right from
the homepage at the top in the top right.
So if you want one on one counseling, ifyou have questions that are best answered
by a human being and not a bot, then clickon that and you can or call the number.
And you can talk to somebody.
So that's first and foremost.

(31:29):
But there's also some good informationon the website that's more self serve.
And if you want to go and look atsome of the resources, we have budget
tools, financial planning resourcesthat help people set up realistic
financial goals and tackle some of thedecisions they have in front of them in
maintaining and managing their budget.
And we also have something newand exciting on our website

(31:50):
under education and resources.
And these are online courses.
That are available and you can clickthrough to the education and resources
section and they cover a growing rangeof topics like budgeting, understanding
your credit score, common things thatpeople have in mind when they're looking
at their budget or managing their debt.
And then if you scroll down on ourhomepage way, way, way, way, way
down, you'll find blogs about arange of personal finance topics.

(32:14):
So we've been.
We've been posting these blogssince the beginning of time.
So there's just about everytopic you can imagine.
At least since

Jodi (32:21):
1951, right?
Even before the internet.
Since Bruce has been

around.
So these topics cover a very broadrange of things that, where you
might find some helpful information.

Jodi (32:31):
Very good.
Are the courses that are online, are thosesort of self navigated kind of courses?

Tom (32:36):
Yeah.
Got it.
Very nice.
I think that as we talk about the,uh, I'm going to call it a crisis
just because we talked about the 1.
14 trillion and the survey resultsthat you're sharing, are there are
financial stressors and stresses outthere is, I think the hardest part
probably is looking in the mirror, right?
And saying, I've got to, I need help.

(32:56):
I got to seek assistance.
So it, there is a realization that someonemay have that, those financial challenges.
They may not have the right copingmechanisms associated with those
stresses around financial matters.
So is there, is there anything thata message you want to give to someone
that says, I'm going to take that step?
Is there something that, or isit just internal and they've

(33:18):
got to come to that realization?

Yeah.
You know, it's so easy for somebody to sithere and say, yeah, go ahead and pick up
the phone or go online and get help now.
But when you're in the midst of afinancial crisis, it can be very
difficult to get to the pointwhere you're comfortable reaching
out and trusting someone else.
To help you through theproblem that you're facing.

(33:42):
And that goes back to whatwe were saying before.
It's really, you're doing yourselfa favor when you check out these
resources before you reach out.
But once you've come to the, to thedecision to reach out, I think you should
acknowledge the fact that that is a huge,massive step that you've just taken.
That will go a long way towardshelping you get out of the situation

(34:02):
you're in and avoiding takingthat step only makes things worse,
far worse than you can imagine.
And especially if you're active dutymilitary, debt issues have security
clearance consequences, career advancementissues, you know, there's a lot at
stake reaching out and getting help.
Is a first very important step inresolving those issues overcoming those

(34:26):
barriers and I can just say from firsthand experience because I was a frontline
counselor for years I worked in an areawhere there was a high concentration
of active duty military and oftentimeswhen people reach out and get help
from a nonprofit credit counselingagency like the one that I worked for.
That was able to mitigate issues thatstood in the way of renewing or achieving

(34:49):
a security clearance, career advancement.
They were able to go and show that theywere taking steps to resolve those issues.
And so being proactive and taking thatstep is more doing yourself a favor.
Than anything else.
So I would say feel good about the choicewhen you do reach out for help and be open
to The possibilities because the thingscan't be so bad that there are no options

(35:15):
or possibilities So just be open to theadvice you get ask lots of questions And
make sure that you're informed before youcommit to a a specific outcome sage advice

Jodi (35:26):
Yeah, I would think reaching out and asking asking for help At
the point that you asked for thehelp would be a sense of relief.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, you've taken that first steptowards I'm going to get out of whatever
this, whatever that situation is.

The most common thing that people said after, after going
through that initial counselingsession when I was a counselor was
they felt like the weight of theworld was lifted off their shoulders.
And I think that's, youknow, who doesn't want that?
To have that feeling, right?
It's more incentive toreach out and get help.

Jodi (36:03):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I could, I could definitely see that, youknow, when I switch gears just a little
bit, Tom and I had been blessed throughthis podcast largely to talk to a lot of
organizations that help military families,veterans, active duty, suffering from
health issues, PTSD, financial issues.
Food insecurity is somethingwe hear about a lot.
When we, when we look at yourwebsite, you've got organizations

(36:26):
listed such as operation home fret.
The American Red Cross, WoundedWarrior, Gary Sinise Foundation, MFAN,
or Military Family Advisory Network.
How, how does NFCC align with thosetypes of organizations for the
betterment of, of our military families?

Well, the one thing that your question calls attention
to is the vast network of supportservices that extend a hand to,
uh, active duty service membersand veterans and military families.
So it's great to be a part of that effort.
Knowing that we're helping out insome way with the financial well being

(37:03):
and financial readiness of militaryfamilies and helping support veterans.
But these other organizations doso much in so many other ways.
And as we referenced earlier in thediscussion and was, it was pointed
out that all these, there are a lotof things that are interconnected.
Your financial situationdoesn't live by itself.
It touches on so manyother aspects of your life.

(37:23):
So when people come to us for counseling,we want to make sure that we're also
Helping connect them to other resourcesthat can assist in ways that we can't
so if we're focused on the financialAnd our counselors do an incredible job
helping people through some significantfinancial challenges, many of them that
are unique to military families, butthere are other things that individuals

(37:47):
are going through where our counselorsmay not be able to directly assist.
But we can facilitate connectionsto those trusted organizations, like
Wounded Warriors, like the Gary SiniseFoundation, and like some of the
other programs that are available.
And I will say too, you mentioned MFAN,I have tremendous respect for the work
that they do and the, and the, Issuesthat they bring attention to and any

(38:10):
opportunity where we can collaborate withthem is always a welcome opportunity.
And I know they, they have a greatsurvey as well that goes into
all kinds of areas that we don't,like food insecurity and housing.
So a lot of respect forthose organizations.
So we're always open to working with them.
And we certainly welcome opportunitiesto refer people for help from this
network of trusted organizationswhenever, whenever appropriate.

Tom (38:33):
We always, she and I always talk about.
No, there's 45, 000 nonprofitssupporting military community.
Right.
And certainly that's a lot of podcastepisodes, but it just goes to show you
that sometimes that, that number itselfwas overwhelming to a point where I'm not
even, I'm not even going to dig in becauseit's just too much, but you're right.
There are so many greatorganizations out there.

(38:54):
We meet such wonderful peoplethat run these organizations.
Well,

Jodi (38:57):
the cool thing is they never have ever seemed to compete
with one another to do well.
And they know

Tom (39:03):
we, they know the other organizations.
There's

Jodi (39:05):
always a willingness, like you've described for your organization to,
to collaborate and to share and poolresources where appropriate to help, to
help family that's in a, maybe a bad way.

Tom (39:15):
Hey, Bruce, why

do you like working for NFCC?
Wow.
Now I feel like I'm in my annualreview talking to my boss now.
Well, well, you bring that up, but thisis, yeah, this is your annual review.
Okay, Mike and Jen, this is for you.
Uh, no, the, the, Be careful.
No, I, I mean, I, it's, it's, it's greatto be able to support an organization

(39:42):
that has, as a non profit, has done somuch for so many people and helping them
not just get past a, a financial setback,but to Get themselves in a position
where they're more resilient and areable to on their own overcome significant
financial issues in the future.

(40:03):
So it's the NFCC and its members don'tjust put a band aid on on an issue.
They help train people to be the medicto be the doctor to to to do better.
And to live better financiallives in the future, no matter
what life throws at them.
We just had a conference justthe other week in Washington, D.

(40:25):
C.
It's our annual conference.
And we had a panel of four of thepeople that have, four people that
have been helped by our counseling.
And three of them, it hasbeen a while since they went
through the counseling program.
So they've had years after.
To report on to come back and tell us howtheir life has been and to a person what
they learned through the experience ofworking with a counselor has benefited

(40:48):
them in some way, often significant wayin helping them live better financial
lives and achieve the goals that theyhave for themselves in their life.
So do things that they never dreamtthey would be able to do later.
So it's not just about overcomingdebt or to finding a way to avoid
bankruptcy or, or get out of a crisis.
It's also about achievinglife's goals and life changing

(41:11):
things can happen as a result.
So that's why it's, it's been an honor,not just to, to work for the NFCC, but
in the years prior to work for one ofthe NFCC member agencies as a counselor.
And to directly impact the lives of somany people, and it's a great team because
of the work that is done by the NFCC.
We have a very dedicated and committedgroup of individuals, you know,

(41:34):
nobody's here to get rich or famous.
Everybody's focused on one goal, andthat's just making people's lives better.
How do you find those gems?
Huh?
I know.

Jodi (41:43):
I know.
Well, if it was really for yourreview, you would have just
started off by saying, I love myjob because of insert boss's name.

Mike and Jen, you're amazing.
Fantastic people.
And now

Jodi (41:54):
you're covered for boss's day too.
So we'll send you a clip andthey can make it their ringtone.

Tom (41:59):
No merit increase for you, Bruce.

But in an indirect way, I kind of did indicate that
they are amazing, incrediblepeople because as I said about the
team, I mean, everybody is here.
Thank you.
Because their mission focus.
So it's not just about themand their career advancement.
It's about helping thepeople that need us.
So it's, it's the best group of people youcould ever imagine working for or with.

(42:21):
That's awesome.

Jodi (42:22):
That's awesome.
And, and what you answeredTom with sort of ties to the
question I was going to ask you.
So you talked about the three individualsthat were on the panel and how it had
been a life changing experience for them.
Well, he said three, there were fourpeople on the panel, but three of them had
gone through Oh, so you were listening.
Yeah.

Yeah.
One, one had just completed theprogram, so they were a little fresh.
So put your

Jodi (42:44):
four back in your pocket.
Anyway, before I was really interrupted,

Tom (42:49):
Jody, I was wrong.

Jodi (42:50):
Yes.
And now we have it.
I need that.

Tom (42:52):
We can talk about Fonzie because Fonzie could never say he was wrong.
I need that

Jodi (42:55):
for my ringtone.
When Tom calls, it'sgoing to say, I was wrong.
I was wrong.
Answer the phone.
Anyway, we digress because of Tom.
So other than those folks in thosevery recent stories that you just
were able to hear at the conference,maybe even back when you were in.
in the front lines as a counselor.
Is there, is there a family or aperson that just sticks out to you

(43:15):
that when you think of this is, thisis why I do what I do every day.
I know he's probably gothundreds or thousands.
Is there one that you would share withus that, that really is just a good
representation of your personal why?

Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
See, this is the Barbara Waltersinterview part where you make me cry.
She always had that one questionwhere she tried to make people cry.
No, but in all seriousness, I mean, when,Thinking about the people, and I'm going
back to my counseling days, the peoplethat I've worked with directly, there were
so many people who found themselves insituations they assumed were the end of

(43:55):
the line, and that there was no, no hopeor no help, and I think the most rewarding
thing was to be a part of the process thathelps them realize that That it's not a
dead end and that there are choices theycould make, there are steps they could
take to, to get out of an unavoidablesituation that, that might be a dead end.

(44:21):
And it changes people's lives insuch a significant way that there's,
there are mental health implications.
There's emotional wellbeing and there, I,I can think of specific examples, but just
in general, just being able to see that.
Significant, a change in someone's lifehas, has, has been certainly inspirational

(44:45):
to me because you know, and I'm notsaying, oh, it's the counseling that did
this, the counseling isn't the, isn'tthe end to a means, it's the means to
an end and it's the process that helpspeople realize that there are choices
and it helps them make informed choicesfor themselves and it helps them feel
more confident And so they're the onesdoing the heavy lifting as, as the

(45:08):
counselor, I was just there to facilitatethat process and to jump in and to
provide advice and to answer questions.
But there's so many instances wherethe, the people that I worked with
did some incredible, amazing thingsto get back on track and, and.
To be a small part of that, to help out asa counselor was tremendously gratifying.

(45:30):
And I still hear from someof those people today.
I mean, we heard from that panel ofthree people at the conference, and
it's just so incredible to hear whatthey're doing with their lives, going
into business for themselves or going,traveling around the world or starting
organizations that help other people.
I mean, it's just, it's amazing.

Jodi (45:48):
That's pretty cool.
Especially for him to comeback and stay in touch.
It's almost

Tom (45:53):
like they made permanent changes to their life too.
Yeah.
By the way, I had to, I had to dig farand look high, wide, long to find this.
No, I'm kidding.
Somebody said something reallynice about you and I wanted
to share it with the group.
Oh my

goodness.
No, it

Tom (46:10):
wasn't your direct supervisors.
I already tried that route.
They just hung up on me now.
So Bruce is a talented and highlyeffective public relations,
communications, and marketing leader.
He is a trusted national spokespersonfor NFCC because of his professionalism,
industry experience, and passion forhelping people improve their finances.

(46:32):
What stands out most about Bruce ishis positive and collaborative nature.
He always goes above andbeyond to get the job done.
And I think that's emblematicof your entire organization.
And you just echo those same commentsabout the team with whom you work,
that you're proud to be there.
And to answer Jody's question about the,why, what, what keeps you going every day?

(46:54):
What, why do you wake up in the morningto go serve those who serve and just
the comments from somebody in yourcircle of influence to say something
that favorable about you says alot about you and the organization.
So kudos to you.
Well, thank you.

I'm tremendously honored by those comments, but I will say that
any of those qualities that peoplemay see from the work that I do are
inspired by the people around me.
So I will absolutely emphasize thatpoint because I'd be a terrible heel if
I didn't work around such good people.
So,

Tom (47:26):
so you've been in the upper north, what do they call that?
The pacific northwest, the PNWfor a couple of years, maybe.
But and you've got someunique knowledge of Seattle.
I want to know what you do for a hobby.
Hmm.
I mean, it's not solving world peace whenyou're not solving world credit problems.
No, I'm not knitting.
I don't

(47:46):
. Jodi: That's really, that's a lot, right?

Yeah.
That's from 1951.
I tried

Jodi (47:50):
say one didn't

go well.
No.
I mean, for me, the Pacific Northwestis a place of tremendous natural beauty.
I mean, anybody who enjoys being outdoors.
Would feel right at home here.
It's one of the reasons that I moved here.
Originally, years ago, I grew upin Virginia on the East coast.
So very familiar with theSouth and the Southeast.
So I tried to spend as much timeas possible away from the city.

(48:14):
For me, the city is just aplace where I rest my head.
And, And I'm housed, but thenon the weekends, even in the
evenings, I try to get out and hike.
I go into the mountains, spendas much time as I can outdoors.
There are beautiful beaches.
There's rugged coastline, the Columbiariver and the desert canyons around that
area, the wineries down, down in the tricities area, the Columbia river valley.

(48:36):
I'm sorry, you sound like atravel brochure, but it's,

Tom (48:39):
I feel like I need to sign up for a cruise or something and we have cruises

that start here to Alaska cruises.
So there you go.
Extra 200.
You can.
So, so I do.
I really love the outdoors, butI also can't break away from the
conveniences of living in the city.
So I just, I live in the city, Idon't like the city necessarily, so
I like to get out into the wildernessand explore the great outdoors.

Tom (49:05):
And it never rains in Seattle, is what I hear.

Well, there's a song, I think it's something about the
bluest skies you'll ever see are inSeattle, and there's, there's some
Well, is that fiction, or what?
Lies!
There's some truth to that, becausethe summer is reliably sunny.
And the winter and springand fall are reliably rainy.

Jodi (49:24):
I thought he was going to say the bluest eyes in Texas.
And I was like, what's thathave to do with Seattle?
Different song, different

state.
But in the summer.
Yes.
That's why most of the tourists who comefor the cruise ships and everything.
They come in July and August and the roadsget crowded and the sidewalks are busy.
And then everybody goes whenthe raindrops start falling.

Jodi (49:43):
Another song raindrops,

which is what

Tom (49:46):
rain dress keep on in my head.
Yeah, yeah, we're breaking allkinds of copyright rules here.
Or how about it's rainingagain by super tramp.
I can't.
Yeah, it's a super.
There we go.
Yeah, that's dating myself.
I don't, I don't know that one.
You don't know super tramp.
Yeah, breakfast in America.
Breakfast in America.
One of the best albums of all time, right?
I got nothing,

Jodi (50:04):
but I do have a military minute.

Tom (50:08):
Ooh.
How was that first transition?
By the way, Jody's a Hank Williams fan.

Jodi (50:12):
Hank Williams Jr., Hank Williams Senior, is that right?
Not my demographic.

Tom (50:18):
Oh, Junior, Senior, what, third, fourth,

what, does it matter?
Well answer me this before weget into the Military Minute
and you're a Hank Williams fan.
Oh.
Did Hank Williams ever do a cover versionof the song, There's a Tear in My Beer?
Junior did junior

Jodi (50:33):
do

that junior yes

Jodi (50:34):
i think he did and didn't i like holograph his dad in beside him

oh yikes i didn't know that oh yeah you've got a skill set i
didn't know i think it was maybe on an

Jodi (50:43):
award show and i like holographed his dad in and they sang it together

Tom (50:47):
sure like with nat king cole thing they did that with natalie
when natalie did it yeah yeah withher father just like that yeah the

holograms the holograms creep me out i don't know yeah

Jodi (50:56):
so we're going to his concert saturday what was ai

Tom (50:58):
you might see it Yeah,

Jodi (51:00):
I just close my eyes and imagine active imagination.

Tom (51:04):
This is where Bruce can answer last

Jodi (51:05):
week's question about the military minute.
He's excited.
I knew that.

Yeah.
I'm looking forward to this.
Okay.
Give me, give me a good one here.

Jodi (51:12):
Okay.
So this one you can totally answerif you know the answer, or you could
just guess and then we'll judge you.
Our last guest was related tothe Wounded Warrior Project.
And so it's kind of a basic question.
And what city was theWounded Warrior Project?
Founded.
Oh,

Tom (51:31):
I picked that one because it's part of, you listed on your website,

Jodi (51:35):
like a state.

I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to say mea culpa here.
I do not know the answer to that question.
I didn't even phone

Jodi (51:41):
a friend.

I didn't even phone a friend.
I'm going to, I could guess my,my guess would be, wait, I'll

Tom (51:46):
give you a hint.
I'll give you a hint.
You, you lived in this area ofthe country, Virginia, right?
So, okay.
So you got the state.
You got the state.
Now give me a city.
Okay.

Jodi (51:54):
It rhymes with mowing and we only

Tom (51:55):
have 38 minutes, Roanoke, Roanoke,

Virginia,
I grew up near there.
Yeah, yeah, if you

Jodi (52:04):
are, if you are in our audience and you guessed Roanoke, Virginia,
and you commented that with helpme saying it rhymed with moan oak.
Watch, watch for us to post your nameas the person selected to win 50 for
you and 50 to a charity of your choice.
And now for this week's MilitaryMinute, this one you cannot answer,
but shake your head vigorouslyup and down if you know it.

(52:25):
It's about credit scores.
What is the range from low tohigh of possible credit scores?
He's not shaking his head.

I know.
Well, he, he knows the answer.
I know the answer, but what, what,what is the head shake for just so

Jodi (52:40):
that we know that, you know?

Oh yeah.
It's valid.
I'm on the, I'm on, I'm onthe Experian consumer council.
I hope I know

Jodi (52:49):
we figured that was a gimme.
Bruce is going to

Tom (52:50):
say it rhymes with,

Jodi (52:52):
no, no, no hints, no hints.
So if you are in our audienceand you are not Bruce, And
you know the answer to that.
Comment it.
When we drop this podcast.
Can I

give people a hint?
Oh, oh, it's a, it's anumber, not a letter.

Jodi (53:07):
Yes, that's fine.
That's a hint.
We're looking for a range ofnumbers from a number, numbers,
not number to a high number.
Oh,

Tom (53:13):
Bruce, you had to add value.

Jodi (53:16):
And so if your answer is right, you can watch us, watch to
see if we select your name and youtoo could win 50 for yourself and
50 to a charity of your choice.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
So it's been, it's been a pleasure, Bruce.
Want to refer folks back toyour website again, nfcc.
org.

Yep.
Nfcc.
org.
And thanks.
Thanks, Jodi and Tom, forhaving me on the podcast.
If I didn't totally ruin yourshow, I'd love to be back.
It would be, it would be a great honor.

Tom (53:47):
I think as we get through the next surveys year after year, I think though,
if the findings change or if there's moreinformation, we'd love to have you back.
So if big, if, if you enjoyed today'sepisode, like Jody did go out to AF bank.
com and subscribe to the show.
Also make sure to rate us, leave us acomment on your favorite podcast platform.
And Bruce, those platforms are Applepodcasts, Spotify, and YouTube, and

(54:11):
you, you did a fantastic job today.
Again.
This was fun.
Your professionalism and yourexperience you have doing this
and the knowledge you bring to theaudience has, has been incredible.
So thank you.

Well, thanks Tom.
And thanks Jody.
And next time I'm on, pleasehave an easier trivia question.

Jodi (54:27):
It won't rhyme with Moenhoek because I don't, I don't know that
anything else other than Roanoke does.
It rhymes with Neattle.

Yeah.
And then we'll

Jodi (54:34):
go.

Yeah.
Well, thanks for having me on.
All right.
Thank

Jodi (54:37):
you.

Tom (54:42):
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