June 5, 2025 • 38 mins
The hit show Adolescence on Netflix was a cinematic marvel that brilliantly incorporated themes of masculinity, digital media, and the disconnect between parents in kids. In this episode, Eddie and Justin break down some of these themes, and compare them to what kids are going through today in real life. Spolier alerts ahead!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Don't Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to MMHC, your go to mental health podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Eddie Cooreo, a licensed professional counselor.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Justin Romano, a Board certified Child and adolescent psychiatrist.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We created MMHC to give listeners evidence based information directly
from professionals who work in mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We're not influencers, we're not trying to sell you anything.
We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
mental health into this world.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And we really think that learning about mental health should
be fun, interesting, and most importantly honest.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
We hope you enjoy the show. MMHC is a production
of Speaker from iHeartMedia.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I HEARTMA.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It was my best Netflix intro noise is the same
thing I thought you played it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I don't quite have the tambor the deepness, but that's
a clue as to what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Uh, before we get started, we just have to say,
so we're talking about the show adolescens and you could
probably tell by whatever title we come up with, it'll
it'll reference the fact that it's the show Adolescence from Netflix.
If you haven't watched it yet and you plan on
watching it, this is your time right now. Quick warning,
there will probably be some spoilers. I don't really know.
(01:28):
We're just gonna kind of discuss it, a lot of
great mental health, toxic masculinity, digital age, technology conversation to
be had. Uh, some some spoilers will probably come up.
So this is your opportunity. If you haven't watched it,
it came out a couple months ago, you plan on
watching it, put a pause. You can come back and
listen to this episode once you're Once you're done with it.
(01:50):
If you don't plan on watching it, or you already
watched it, let's just fucking jump into it so real quick.
If if if you haven't watched it, you're not planning
on watching it. Instence is a show that came out
on Netflix a couple months ago. It's been super popular.
I've been told about it by at least four or
five people. They just said, like, I gotta watch it.
Super good. It centers around a thirteen year old. His
(02:11):
name is Jamie Miller. He's arrested for the suspected murder
and I Guess later convicted murder of his classmate. Her
name is Katie Leonard. As the investigation unfolds, the narrative
delves deep into Jamie's family dynamics, the criminal justice system
in the UK, which was interesting in itself, and then
the societal factors that may have influenced his actions. It's wild,
(02:34):
I guess, really. The wild piece of it is that
every episode is filmed in one shot. So if you
watch the show, you know, in the third episode there's
a very intense, full episode of Jamie and a psychologist,
one shot, no breaks, no pauses. Wild. So just if
you didn't, if you watch the whole series and didn't
(02:55):
notice it crazy, if you watched it and you notice it,
you feel the same way. It was wild. So just
to really think about the fact that it was done
in one shot is just mind blowing. So that's what
we want to talk about today. The reason why we
want to talk about is again, it explores a lot
of really important themes that Justin and I see in
our day to day work, literally every single day, things
(03:17):
like online radicalization, toxic masculinity, the challenges of adolescents, and
adding in being an adolescent in the digital age, So
that's really what we want to talk about. I think
as as soon as I got through like one or
two episodes, I was like, yeah, I got I gotta
pitch this to Justin. We got to talk about this
and I recommend it to it. Recommended it to him.
He's watched it, he's all in. So we're here, so
(03:40):
let's get let's jump into it. There's a lot of
family dynamic stuff on it. Justin, you are a father,
what are some initial theory or initial thoughts you had
on the series being a dad, seeing how Jamie's actions,
how his childhood had kind of grown up, all that
meshed together to lead us to where we ended up
in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I thought it'd such a good job of giving us
the perspectives of multiple different characters throughout the show. So
even though it does center around Jamie Miller and the
crime that he committed, you get a deep dive into
the detective's life, you get a deep dive into the
parents' life, you get a deep dive into that psychologist
a part of episode three and it's only four episodes long,
so it's actually a pretty short show in terms of
(04:21):
like a mini series. But the whole episode on the
family and particularly the father. That was the one that
emotionally I connected with the most because it just shows
the journey, the emotional roller coaster that the father went through,
and he goes through so many different stages. Because the
(04:41):
first episode is this big raid on the house, police
bust in, they break down the door. The dad's trying
to protect his family. He's trying to say, like, what
are you doing. You know, there's no way, what are
you talking about? My boys convicted of murder, That's impossible.
Plus he's got a great Liverpoolian accent, which is always
a big plus for me. I love a good accent.
(05:03):
But you see his disbelief, you see him defending his son,
and then yes, absolutely spoiler alert in this episode they
actually show some CCTVs, some closed circuit television, which is
really common in the UK, just security camera footage of
Jamie killing this girl, and you see the shock on
(05:23):
the dad's face when he realizes that he was wrong,
when he realizes that his child is capable of murder,
And that scene in and of itself was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
And the fact that in that first whole episode they
went from busting down the family house door, to going
to the police precinct to talking to the lawyer, and
(05:43):
they filmed all of that in one shot. Was truly
a cinematic masterpiece. Pretty unbelievable. But I think it was
the last episode the dad is sitting in his son's
room and the son admits to him that he's going
to please guilty, and so he's essentially saying that, hey,
he's going to be going to prison for a long time,
(06:05):
and the dad coming to terms with that and sitting
in his son's room and sitting there crying and saying,
I should have done better. I should have I should
have been there for you, I should have done something differently,
and he apologizes to his son. His son's not there
because he's in prison. But just at heart wrenching character
(06:26):
arc of that father, I felt was just I just
did such a good job of telling what it's like
to be a parent when your kid has just a massive,
massive screw up in life. Yeah, how about you, man?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
No, I think you bring up a great point of
the it's not just the Jamie Miller story, it's everybody's
story to it a little bit. You talk about the
lead detective and you even get a little glimpse of
his life and him and his son. They had a
little kind of back and forth in episode two, you
get Jamie's dad, learn about him, you learn a little
(07:02):
bit about mom, you learn about the psychologist. In episode three,
she was kind of the main piece, and you see
her kind of navigating a forty five minute long back
and forth with Jamie, only to be put to tears
at the end of it when it's done because she
went through a pretty intense session. So I, yeah, I
thought the the series was awesome. It was so good
(07:25):
it brought me in real quick. I think sometimes my
attention span is pretty short, so this pulled me in
right away. You're not the first dad to tell me
that it was pretty tough, especially that last episode. Our
mutual friend Ryan told me that that last episode was
really hard for him to watch. I had friends at
work who told me that last episode was really hard
(07:46):
as a parent going through all of that. So I
thought it was really well done, and I thought it
really brought up some actual, real life things that happened
in kids' lives that are like really accurate. You know,
it talked about in the second episode that we can
actually just jump into the next question. But the second
episode talks about social media and how much that has
(08:07):
an impact on the kids at the school, And for
those who haven't watched it, we could paint the scene
a little bit. The lead detective goes from he goes
to Jamie's school to really just start to interview people.
And I believe there was two specific friends that were
with Jamie the night of the murder, So you're just
trying to get some answers, get some questions answered from
those kids at school. And I think there was a
(08:29):
scene where his son actually tells him that, like, Jamie
had been bullied online by kids at school, And I
think the detective realized that he missed something when his
son was telling him this, because he's like, well, Jamie
seemed to be a popular kid. He had all these
comments and stuff under his Instagram pictures and the kids
like like no, dad, Like that's not what that means
(08:50):
at all, Like he was being bullied. And I think
after that it started to shift on him a little
bit of like, oh, shoot, like we miss something. So
all that being said, like, what are your thoughts on
the portrayal of social media in a teenager's life.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I think it did a good job of showing how
bullying really has shifted from in person and they're still
in person bullying today, but I would say online bullying
is so much more prevalent and rampant. I see so
much online bullying going on. I see good kids becoming
online bullies, like kids who wouldn't do it in real life.
Kids who are sweet, good, hardworking, come from good families,
(09:28):
but they feel that temptation to be a bully on
social media. So I think that's one thing the show
did a really good job at portraying, because social media
really has become the centerpiece of the social lives of
young people these days. Like they get a little bit
of in person interaction, but it seems like the vast
majority of their interactions with their peers are coming online.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And we've talked about this too, like Internet, social media
has just shifted so much. The internet just used to be.
It used to be like a singular place in someone's house.
You come home, there's the family computer in the other
room or even in the living room, and just everybody
knew that that was the one place you want to
check your email fired up. Make sure no one's on
(10:12):
the phone and you can check your email. But now
the internet goes everywhere. It's so intertwined into everybody's life,
into your life, and to my life, into everybody's life,
especially these teens, that it's it's everywhere and it's hard
to it's hard to escape it. And it's not all
the kids' fault. You look at school and how much
everything is online. You look at the screens that they
(10:34):
got to look at to get their homework. It's just
it's everywhere. So I think, you know, when it comes
to social media and our kids, our teens, our patients,
our clients. I know, for us, we try to give
our health class presentations on internet use and internet safety
and being smart about it. One of our big ending
slides is what goes on the internet stays on the internet,
(10:55):
and don't say things online that you'd never say in person.
People really do, feeling bolden to think they're anonymous and
say whatever they want, and kids feeling get hurt, their
self esteem gets shot down. It's really tough. So I think, yeah,
social media has been it's tough. I mean, we need
the internet, social media connection good, those things are great,
(11:18):
But then there's a lot of really bad stuff to
it that we just I don't know, we just haven't
figured out how to fix it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Is the biggest social connection in young people's lives, and
when you take that away, you can literally see the
panic in their eyes. Like I've talked to kids who,
you know, they get grounded, their phone gets taken away,
and they legit become suicidal because they don't have the
connection to their entire world anymore. I've seen kids where
(11:46):
I talk about setting screen time limits and I can
see their I start to get wide and they look scared.
It looks scared to give up on that social media
because their entire lives have been built around it. Even
had a third grade or tell me the day that
you know, my parents don't let me have social media
and I feel like an outcast. I feel like a
loaner in my class because I'm the only one without
(12:08):
it in third grade.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, it's just so ubiquitous at this point.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
To go on a little bit of a tengent Actually,
Oregon is I don't know if it passed or is
going to pass or what it is, but there's there's
like a bill in the legislative process. I don't know
where where they're trying to have every school in the
state have some kind of cell phone banned policy. Good Now, Now,
the policy, the way that's being written is general enough
(12:39):
to where each school district can pick and choose how
they want to enforce it. But for my school district specifically,
they just released this a week ago in our last
board meeting. The way they're going to handle it is
it's going to be a door to door policy. So
they've been piloting this with our elementary and middle school
where there's no phones at all in the school, doesn't
matter if it's passing peer, it doesn't matter if it's lunch,
(13:01):
there's nothing you're sure I alady shouldn't have it in class.
There's no phones at all. So it's going to pass
to our high school next year. So that's that'll be interesting,
and it's it's I just don't know what the right
answer is. I think we're gonna have to meet somewhere
in the middle on some things we've gotten so far
so far to one side that like any kind of
policy you come up now, come up with now when
(13:23):
it comes to like technology and social media, you just
don't know what's gonna stick. What's gonna work. It's it's
a crazy battle.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It's the beginning stages of all these things. We don't
We're still just trying to figure out what's going to
be helpful, what's not. There's not a ton of scientific data,
there's not a ton of studies. It's just people trying
to figure this out and put out the fire as
fast as they can. There was a study that came
out of the UK, or survey that came out of
the UK recently, that showed about half of young people
(13:51):
feel like their phones have been hurtful for them in
their lives and would like to have less phone and
social media influence in their life. So I think I've
been saying this for a couple of years, but I
think finally the tides are starting to turn, and the
social acceptedness of cell phones and the and the acceptance
of that we've had of the technology running our lives
(14:15):
is finally starting to turn. That we're finally starting to
say like, hey, this is bad for us. It's getting
pretty obvious it's time to do something.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah. Kind of along the same lines, I mean, you
after you you kind of learn of the I don't
want to call it a bombshell. But after you learn
and see on the detective space that social media kind
of played a part into who Jamie was or what
his experiences were. You also hear about like his social life.
You get the sense that he has friends, like he
was with friends on the night of the of the murder,
(14:47):
but you also kind of feel like he's isolated, like
he has some alone time and he's alone with his
thoughts a lot. You know, with social isolation can come
an increase of naturally, it can come an increase of
online you and with that, unfortunately, a team can be
led to some pretty radical, dangerous things. Andrew Tait you
(15:08):
fuck and he was actually name dropping the show. Kids
can just get led to pretty dark places on the
Internet when they're feeling isolated and they're feeling bullied by
other people, maybe even bullied by the opposite gender, the
opposite sex, being feeling like they're ostracized. When they feel
that way and they consume certain content that it tells
(15:30):
them the opposite that like, no, it's not your fault,
it's their fault, and it starts to be little other people.
You start to consume a lot of that, and the
algorithms You've talked about this a lot, justin the algorithms
are super powerful. You like a couple of videos that
likes that message or portrays that message, you get more
of it. You like those videos, you get more of it.
And your thoughts and how you're impressed on as a
(15:52):
teenager gets quickly changed because of what you're being fed
on social media. So all that to be said, I
went on a little bit of a ramble, but why
do you think why do we think teens get drawn
to this kind of content? This like red pilled women
are bad, other people are bad. I'm in alpha male.
Why do you think teens get drawn to this kind
(16:14):
of content?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I think the biggest point I could make is that
this young generation is probably the loneliest generation in history
because they have less in person connections and more online connections,
which tend to be more hollow, more superficial, provide less
of a sense of community, less of a sense of connection.
And when you're lonely, you're vulnerable. You're looking for a pack,
(16:36):
you're looking for a group. And if you have someone
like Andrew Tate who comes on, hey, he's got money,
he's got women, he's got everything, a young man wants.
It's intoxicating. You say, I want to be like that guy.
I'm going to listen to him because I want what
he has, and it's so easy to manipulate people when
they're lonely.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I just really think about the algorithms and how much
you get fed with what you want. The TikTok for
you page for me gives me a lot of stupid
jokes and funny trends and stuff related to sports, because
that's the stuff I want. But for other people, if
you're getting a lot of entertain you're into that kind
of you know, toxic masculinity, alpha male, the blah blah blah,
(17:23):
big pressage. I don't know, you're into that and you
get fedted a lot, and then you kind of feel
like that's kind of the truth, you know, that's the
only truth. And I think, yeah, I think there is
a concern with not just kids Jamie's age in the show,
but just our young men in general, and seeing how
they talk about women or how they talk about other people.
(17:43):
I think it really became clear during the most recent
election seeing people shit on Kamala and not even say
her name right, just shitting on Kamala because she's a woman,
and it's like, look at her pedigree, what do you
mean she's not capable and doesn't know what she's doing.
Just all the the misogynistic, awful things and ideas that
they get from social media and the internet, and just
(18:07):
I think what's gonna ultimately happen. And I can't remember
the term that people have used on social media, but
I think what's ultimately gonna happen is we're gonna have
a big chunk of young men early teens who basically
end up being ostracized. And I want to say, how
don't want to describe this a big group of young
men and teens, straight young men, heterosexual young men and teens.
(18:31):
We're gonna be ostracized by the opposite sex and opposite
gender and are going to be lonely and at some
point may realize like the error and their ways, but
it might take a long time before we get to
that point. But yeah, I just this red pill, misogynistic
bullshit content. I can kind of say, from like a
Jamie's perspective, why something like that would be enticing, But
(18:53):
it is disheartening that kids and young men get enjoy
this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
One thing he brought up in the show a couple
of times was the eighty twenty rule, where eighty percent
of women are attracted to twenty percent of men. So
he literally says, like, if you're an unattractive man, you
have to trick a woman into liking you. And the
girl that he kills in the show, he tries to
connect with her. He tries to approach her in a
time of vulnerability after she's been kind of rejected by
(19:29):
someone else, and then she still rejects Jamie and that's
kind of what causes the rage that leads to the murder.
But boy, is that a sad commentary on the way
some men view relationships with women, where it's like, oh,
if you're not attractive, like you got to trick a
woman into loving you. It just trivializes relationships. It trivializes love.
(19:53):
Makes a lot of men feel like they're never going
to be loved and found attractive for being just who
they are. Then he was talking to a young man
the other day who said that he was hung up
on a girl and really liked her, And I'm like,
have you told her? Have you told her how you feel?
And he's like, no, that's not very manly, straight up
(20:15):
said that, and then I was like, well, it doesn't
matter what's manly. How can she know that you like
her if you don't tell her. He's like, oh, I
usually just tell her I don't like her, to try
and make her like me more. So, it was all
just like one big masculinity game. And this is a
legit thing going on in this young man's life, and
(20:36):
this is what he has been taught, this is what
he thought was normal in relationships. And I was like,
what kind of foundation are you building in that relationship
If you're literally building it on lies and trying to
trick other people. I'm like, that's not the relationship you want.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Man.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Trying to teach these young people, why treat women in
relationships like they are equals, like they deserve respect, and
to build that foundation of the relationship on honesty and trust.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
To move on a little bit. I think you know
one thing I liked about this show, and maybe if
we think about did you ever watch at least some
of thirteen Reasons Why?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh yeah, I watched like the first three seasons.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, it kind of went on too long. But here's
what I want to say about thirteen reasons why because
it was a book first, right, I think, oh yeah,
I figure I like this show as a just a
consumer of television or streaming service whatever. I liked it.
Once it got to like the fourth season or whatever,
it was like, all right, you're throwing too much shit in.
They're like, what Manny or whatever his name was, that
(21:40):
might be just fucking racist that I call him Manny.
I don't remember his name. His like parents got deported,
Like there was just so much stuff that got thrown into.
But I liked it because I did feel like there's
some pretty real things that that kids go through, that
teens go through in high school that they're that they
portrayed in the show. Yeah, And I bring that up
because I think that Adolescence did a better job of
(22:04):
it of like not making it a super like sensationalized
way of doing it in a way of like, oh yeah,
that feels like super realistic. Like there's like or as
thirteen reasons why. I was like, oh, ex gives me
over the top. This was definitely just felt more realistic.
So I bring all that up to say, like with
you know, with any show that talks about like teens, schools,
mental health, you often hear concerns from parents are like
(22:27):
what what could have been done? Like what what things
could we do? Like if this is a realistic portrayal,
what what should we do? So I guess that's that's
the question that I want us to talk about, is like,
what are some warning signs that we can give to parents, caregivers, guardians,
other adults that work with kids and teens. What are
some warning signs that we can give them?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Isolating too much? And this is a really, really tough
one because almost every single parent that comes into my
office says, my kid hangs out in the room for
hours every day on their screens and they're isolating. They're
not coming out and socializing the family. They're just in there.
Sometimes they're yelling at video games, but they're just they're
in their room for hours and hours and they don't
come out. But too much isolation bad sign. Giving up
(23:10):
on a lot of the hobbies and interests that they
used to do and just focusing on stuff online is
another big red flag. And then even just the language
that they use, how do they talk about other people,
how they talk about relationships, how they talk about their friends.
There can be little red flags and it's I can't
really think of any like great, great examples right now.
(23:30):
But some things that you're like, well, that's kind of
indicates that they're not thinking about things clearly, or maybe
there's an outside influence telling them how to think about
these things.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, in terms of language, right, yeah, I mean anything
that you talked about before, like the guys saying that's
not very the kids saying that's not very manly, to
tell a girl your feelings, referring to girls and women
in a derogatory way. Other things to look out for
work can just be I don't know, try to language
where they try to put themselves above anybody else, look
(24:04):
down on people. I think that could be some things
to look out for for the isolation piece. I'll also
add there's a big difference from like typical developmental withdrawal
of teens from parents, Like that's pretty expected in terms
of like pretty typical development for teens that withdraw from
parents a little more because they want to be with
(24:25):
people their age, their friends, their peers. Really, what to
look out for, also to add on is if it's
withdraw or isolation not just from parents, but also from friends.
If they're not hanging out with their friends anymore, and
they're not doing those things they used to do, like
you said, with the hobbies and interest. That's that's a
sign that the isolation is going in a bad direction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
In the show, do you think toxic masculinity had a
role in how Jamie dealt or didn't deal with his
emotions and struggles?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yes, if I just think of like the fact that
he was an Andrew Taatee fan and that he consumed
that kind of content. And I think even the dad
makes some kind of references later probably the fourth episode
where he just like maybe starts to regret the way
that he handled things. The dad, yeah he used to
(25:13):
handle things, and yeah, has some like guilt and shame.
So definitely, I think, And to give the listeners a
quick definition of toxic masculinity, it refers to the harmful
cultural norms and expectations that pressure men and boys to
suppress emotions, appear tough or dominant, and avoid behavior seen
as quote feminine. It can lead to emotional repression, aggression,
(25:37):
and unhealthy relationships, and it discourages seeking help for mental health.
So absolutely all of that, all of the above, you
see it that that pretty much explains Jamie to a
tea unfortunately, and where he was at in his very
young age.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
What do you think Jamie was really the way he
viewed women, the way he viewed relationships, He didn't value
those relationships with women. And the fact that he talks
about liking that content with Andrew Tait and gravitating towards that. Yeah,
they hinted at it. They never really like nailed it
on the head with that, but it got referenced a
couple of different times throughout the show that that was
(26:13):
a big factor in why he lashed out so aggressively
and violently towards the girl that he murdered.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it makes me think of the other guys too,
like Ben Shapiro or like Charlie Kirk, who like really
just try to like shit on people that they think
are less than Yeah, and just like, I don't know
if I can put this into words, I think people
like that these social media influencers, they make it seem
(26:42):
like shitting on or dunking on people is like respected
and that like that's the way you get ahead in society,
and it's just it's not a long term thing. I
don't know. Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say
is like these people like it runs out eventually, like
Andrew Tat at some point is either going to get
murdered for the crazy shit that he does, the sex
(27:04):
trafficking he's accused of, or he's gonna end up in prison.
Charlie Kirk has some wild allegations about trying to spend
time with underage people like there. Eventually these people get
what's coming to them, and I don't think unfortunately, our
young boys and young men are seeing that. They're just
seeing like the instant gratification of like ha ha ha,
(27:24):
made fun of this person with blue hair, What a loser,
you know.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And just yeah, And I've seen some Charlie Kirk videos
online and it's such a fantasy for his viewers, Like
he finds someone who's transgender or non gender specific, and
you know, he argues with them and he makes a
solid point and makes him look like an idiot. And
that's what the viewers want to see too. They're like
people that they don't understand and don't understand their lifestyle.
(27:51):
They want to tell them that they're right, and they
know more about their gender and sexuality than they do.
And it's just it's a fantasy that doesn't really happen
in real life, and it's intoxicating for young men, especially
who want to feel like they're right about the world.
But like you said, it's not real. It's not reality.
It's not the world that we should be living in.
(28:13):
One question I wanted to ask you too, is that
one of the big themes of the show Adolescents is
that parents just don't always get what's going on in
young people's lives. These days, the experience of young people
has changed so much in the past couple of decades
that older generations just can't know. You know. The detectives
were completely misinterpreting the social media posts. They're like, oh,
(28:34):
he must be a popular guy, people are commenting on stuff,
but he's getting bullied. And the emojis were the things
that were the tip off that it was bullying. But
the parents just had no idea what those meant. So, like,
how funny was it? I mean, how disconnected are we
from the younger generations?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I again, I think another really realistic example. Yeah, I
think there is a huge disconnect. I you know, I
talked about this, not the Humble Brag, but on one
of the times that our friend Emily Burris had me
on the show on Coin to be interviewed. I talked about, like,
how can parents try to start to make connections with
(29:13):
their kids again, And it really starts with just like
normalizing the talking to each other again. I don't think
a lot of parents, unfortunately, are doing that right now.
And I will say, I get it. Life is stressful
as fuck. Things are tough. It's probably hard. You're raising
a teenager or two teenagers, it's probably hard. Actually, I
(29:34):
just had a parent tell me this the other day.
You know, I get home from work at this time.
It's just really hard, Like it's I'm exhausted, and I
feel bad that I didn't really hey, so it's okay.
You know. I had to tell them, like it's okay,
it's okay if you didn't notice something going on, like
it's it's really tough right now. So I think, yeah,
I think unfortunately a lot of parents get disconnected because
of the way the world is right now because of smartphones.
(29:56):
Parents are not immune to the smartphone craziness epidemic that's
going on. They're influenced by it too, So I think
they just end up missing out on things because they're
just not aware. I think there was so much less
influences without the Internet and social media that you kind
of had a good idea of what was going on
because everyone was getting their knowledge kind of the same way,
(30:18):
you know, through TV and the news and some outlets
here and there. But now, like the influences feel almost
infinite and you just don't know. Kids be saying shit
all the time. You're like, what the hell does that mean?
There's just yeah, there's just that's my long, long winded
way of just saying like, yeah, for sure, there's there's
(30:38):
a disconnect. I think the open discussion with families is
happening less and less, and then the difference is that
the kids are learning about and moving away from their
parents are becoming more and more and it's it's hard
to reconnect when you feel you're just you're you have
an alien in your own house. And that can go
either way. It can go the kid away of like
I don't want to talk to my parents, they're weird,
(30:59):
out of they don't get me, and the kid and
the adult being like I don't know how to talk
to my kid, they're weird. It's different than what I'm
used to don't. I don't get it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I work with kids all day, every day, and I
hear stuff every day that I'm just like, what what
are you saying? What is that slang?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
And it's funny. Half the time kids are using the
slang themselves and they ask them what they mean, They're like,
I don't know. People just say it. I'm like, but
I think a really good point that we are very
disconnected from our kids these days. And the kids that
I work with that are like the toughest situations that
feel like they just have no connection with their parents.
(31:37):
I'll ask them like, hey, what do you do with
your parents? What do you do for fun? Yeah, and
they've got absolutely nothing in common that they do. Girls
most of the time say I don't know, we go
shopping every once in a while, and then boys usually
just say just nothing. They just do nothing with their parents.
So it is I mean, think about how much time
parents are on their phones on average, probably three four
hours a day for most adults, for kids up to
(31:59):
nine hours a day. Where's the time to be together,
Where's the time to learn what's going on in people's lives. Yeah,
most of the people who are parents these days didn't
grow up with Snapchat being what it is now, where
kids are sending constant inappropriate messages, nudes, drugs over Snapchat
(32:19):
all the time, and they don't understand how easy it
is for kids to really get themselves in some bad situations.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I can't even think of a good analogy. But it's
just like you, you don't even know where to start
with it, Like how do you start to explain to
someone who has no or minimal general knowledge of something
like Snapchat? Like how do you start to explain to
them the uses of it? How do you start to
You don't it's hard.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Let alone people being raised by grandparents like that generational
gap is rough. It's so different.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And the world kind of feels like I saw now,
it's hard to have energy to want to connect with
even your own family and kids when the world just
feels like oh every.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Day, yeah, we get bombarded with negativity from our cell phones,
bombarded and it makes the world seem terrible, when honestly,
the world is probably a better place than it ever
has been. Like maybe recent political stuff aside, but like
violence is down, murders are down, child violence is down.
(33:32):
This world is a safer place than it has been
in centuries, but we are made to believe that this
world is a terrible place and we need to be
constantly on guard because someone at every turn is going
to try and take advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Well, we've talked about the where we're lacking and where
we're struggling, but we've also talked about, like what are
some signs to look out for? So we try and
keep it at least semi positive and helpful. But I
guess to wrap up for today, what do we think
our kids and teens need, Like if we need to
get some messages out there, like, what do we think
(34:07):
what do we think they need?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Rapid fire connection, in person connection, good role models, a
sense of community, a flip phone less social media, ways
to get out anger in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Boom connection, in person connection. I'll double down on it. No,
I think I think all of that. I think for
me personally, I guess professionally in work, I'm interested to
see how the cell phone rule is going to work
next year, to see does that increase connection? Does it not?
Does it? I don't know what is it going to do,
(34:43):
So that might be a good kind of lesson to
just see what's going on. Actually, oh this is kind
of related. Are you familiar with doctor Angela Duckworth But
I can't. It might she wrote the book Grit. I
believe it was called. I don't remember exactly what it
was about, but she's a psychologist and right now she's
doing this huge study across educators and people that are
(35:09):
staff that work in public schools about cell phone bands
and like what ban does your school have in place
and that kind of stuff. So they're running some big
survey study idea, just to get a sense of what
things are like out there. So that'll be interesting to
see when it comes out. But yeah, there's I think
connection for sure, better hobbies, better ways to spend your time.
(35:32):
I love this the idea of sense of community. Now,
probably two years ago, three years ago when the Surgeon
General came out and said that one of the predictors
for how well a team does is they're connected this
to school in the school community. So I think that's
super important. But I guess i'll go with d all
of the above. I agree with you. I think those
(35:53):
are all great.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So thanks for coming up with this topic. I'm glad
we got to talk about it. Brought in a lot
of it cool themes that we'd like to talk about
on the show, masculinity, cell phones, parenting, what it's like
to be a young person in today's world. So yeah,
good idea, Eddie.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Appreciate it. And if you got through the whole episode
and you haven't watched it and you want to watch it,
still watch it. It was so good, especially when you
realize that it's all one shot.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
The acting is because if you make one little mistake,
you got to refilm the whole all over.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, but anyway, thank you all for listening. We appreciate you.
Let's play it out podcast Spotify. We got a new
review recently. Shout out to did I tell you this
one had justin?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
No, I don't think you did.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Oh my good, this one's for you man. Shout out
to Sweary Carrie. Apple Podcasts. It says five stars for
the rfk impersonation.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yes, but then it also went on to say, uh,
thank you for bringing us fact the base and comedic
updates in the mental health world.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Keep up the rad work, guys. So hey, I swear
to Carrie, We love that. But yeah, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
leave us a review, Leave us a comment, we'll read
it on our next episode. AH social media at millennialmac
and millenniaimac dot com. Thank you all for listening, and
remember take care of y'all mentals.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And take care of y'all mentals. Fuck. The content provider
in this podcast is for informational purposes only and does
not constitute legal, medical, or professional advice. All We seek
the advice of a qualified professional for any legal, medical,
or mental health concern. The hosts and the producers disclaim
any liability for any direct, indirect, incidental, consequential, or specific
(37:52):
damages arising from the use of this podcast or any
information contained there in. Opinions expressed by the hosts and
guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the
view of their employers or organizations that they may affiliate with.
By accessing and listening to this podcast, you agree to
hold harmless the hosts, guests, and producers from claims or
liabilities arising from your use of, or reliance on, the
information presented.
Don't Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to MMHC, your go to mental health podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Eddie Cooreo, a licensed professional counselor.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Justin Romano, a Board certified Child and adolescent psychiatrist.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We created MMHC to give listeners evidence based information directly
from professionals who work in mental health.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We're not influencers, we're not trying to sell you anything.
We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
mental health into this world.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And we really think that learning about mental health should
be fun, interesting, and most importantly honest.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
We hope you enjoy the show. MMHC is a production
of Speaker from iHeartMedia.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I HEARTMA.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It was my best Netflix intro noise is the same
thing I thought you played it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I don't quite have the tambor the deepness, but that's
a clue as to what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Uh, before we get started, we just have to say,
so we're talking about the show adolescens and you could
probably tell by whatever title we come up with, it'll
it'll reference the fact that it's the show Adolescence from Netflix.
If you haven't watched it yet and you plan on
watching it, this is your time right now. Quick warning,
there will probably be some spoilers. I don't really know.
(01:28):
We're just gonna kind of discuss it, a lot of
great mental health, toxic masculinity, digital age, technology conversation to
be had. Uh, some some spoilers will probably come up.
So this is your opportunity. If you haven't watched it,
it came out a couple months ago, you plan on
watching it, put a pause. You can come back and
listen to this episode once you're Once you're done with it.
(01:50):
If you don't plan on watching it, or you already
watched it, let's just fucking jump into it so real quick.
If if if you haven't watched it, you're not planning
on watching it. Instence is a show that came out
on Netflix a couple months ago. It's been super popular.
I've been told about it by at least four or
five people. They just said, like, I gotta watch it.
Super good. It centers around a thirteen year old. His
(02:11):
name is Jamie Miller. He's arrested for the suspected murder
and I Guess later convicted murder of his classmate. Her
name is Katie Leonard. As the investigation unfolds, the narrative
delves deep into Jamie's family dynamics, the criminal justice system
in the UK, which was interesting in itself, and then
the societal factors that may have influenced his actions. It's wild,
(02:34):
I guess, really. The wild piece of it is that
every episode is filmed in one shot. So if you
watch the show, you know, in the third episode there's
a very intense, full episode of Jamie and a psychologist,
one shot, no breaks, no pauses. Wild. So just if
you didn't, if you watch the whole series and didn't
(02:55):
notice it crazy, if you watched it and you notice it,
you feel the same way. It was wild. So just
to really think about the fact that it was done
in one shot is just mind blowing. So that's what
we want to talk about today. The reason why we
want to talk about is again, it explores a lot
of really important themes that Justin and I see in
our day to day work, literally every single day, things
(03:17):
like online radicalization, toxic masculinity, the challenges of adolescents, and
adding in being an adolescent in the digital age, So
that's really what we want to talk about. I think
as as soon as I got through like one or
two episodes, I was like, yeah, I got I gotta
pitch this to Justin. We got to talk about this
and I recommend it to it. Recommended it to him.
He's watched it, he's all in. So we're here, so
(03:40):
let's get let's jump into it. There's a lot of
family dynamic stuff on it. Justin, you are a father,
what are some initial theory or initial thoughts you had
on the series being a dad, seeing how Jamie's actions,
how his childhood had kind of grown up, all that
meshed together to lead us to where we ended up
in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I thought it'd such a good job of giving us
the perspectives of multiple different characters throughout the show. So
even though it does center around Jamie Miller and the
crime that he committed, you get a deep dive into
the detective's life, you get a deep dive into the
parents' life, you get a deep dive into that psychologist
a part of episode three and it's only four episodes long,
so it's actually a pretty short show in terms of
(04:21):
like a mini series. But the whole episode on the
family and particularly the father. That was the one that
emotionally I connected with the most because it just shows
the journey, the emotional roller coaster that the father went through,
and he goes through so many different stages. Because the
(04:41):
first episode is this big raid on the house, police
bust in, they break down the door. The dad's trying
to protect his family. He's trying to say, like, what
are you doing. You know, there's no way, what are
you talking about? My boys convicted of murder, That's impossible.
Plus he's got a great Liverpoolian accent, which is always
a big plus for me. I love a good accent.
(05:03):
But you see his disbelief, you see him defending his son,
and then yes, absolutely spoiler alert in this episode they
actually show some CCTVs, some closed circuit television, which is
really common in the UK, just security camera footage of
Jamie killing this girl, and you see the shock on
(05:23):
the dad's face when he realizes that he was wrong,
when he realizes that his child is capable of murder,
And that scene in and of itself was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
And the fact that in that first whole episode they
went from busting down the family house door, to going
to the police precinct to talking to the lawyer, and
(05:43):
they filmed all of that in one shot. Was truly
a cinematic masterpiece. Pretty unbelievable. But I think it was
the last episode the dad is sitting in his son's
room and the son admits to him that he's going
to please guilty, and so he's essentially saying that, hey,
he's going to be going to prison for a long time,
(06:05):
and the dad coming to terms with that and sitting
in his son's room and sitting there crying and saying,
I should have done better. I should have I should
have been there for you, I should have done something differently,
and he apologizes to his son. His son's not there
because he's in prison. But just at heart wrenching character
(06:26):
arc of that father, I felt was just I just
did such a good job of telling what it's like
to be a parent when your kid has just a massive,
massive screw up in life. Yeah, how about you, man?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
No, I think you bring up a great point of
the it's not just the Jamie Miller story, it's everybody's
story to it a little bit. You talk about the
lead detective and you even get a little glimpse of
his life and him and his son. They had a
little kind of back and forth in episode two, you
get Jamie's dad, learn about him, you learn a little
(07:02):
bit about mom, you learn about the psychologist. In episode three,
she was kind of the main piece, and you see
her kind of navigating a forty five minute long back
and forth with Jamie, only to be put to tears
at the end of it when it's done because she
went through a pretty intense session. So I, yeah, I
thought the the series was awesome. It was so good
(07:25):
it brought me in real quick. I think sometimes my
attention span is pretty short, so this pulled me in
right away. You're not the first dad to tell me
that it was pretty tough, especially that last episode. Our
mutual friend Ryan told me that that last episode was
really hard for him to watch. I had friends at
work who told me that last episode was really hard
(07:46):
as a parent going through all of that. So I
thought it was really well done, and I thought it
really brought up some actual, real life things that happened
in kids' lives that are like really accurate. You know,
it talked about in the second episode that we can
actually just jump into the next question. But the second
episode talks about social media and how much that has
(08:07):
an impact on the kids at the school, And for
those who haven't watched it, we could paint the scene
a little bit. The lead detective goes from he goes
to Jamie's school to really just start to interview people.
And I believe there was two specific friends that were
with Jamie the night of the murder, So you're just
trying to get some answers, get some questions answered from
those kids at school. And I think there was a
(08:29):
scene where his son actually tells him that, like, Jamie
had been bullied online by kids at school, And I
think the detective realized that he missed something when his
son was telling him this, because he's like, well, Jamie
seemed to be a popular kid. He had all these
comments and stuff under his Instagram pictures and the kids
like like no, dad, Like that's not what that means
(08:50):
at all, Like he was being bullied. And I think
after that it started to shift on him a little
bit of like, oh, shoot, like we miss something. So
all that being said, like, what are your thoughts on
the portrayal of social media in a teenager's life.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I think it did a good job of showing how
bullying really has shifted from in person and they're still
in person bullying today, but I would say online bullying
is so much more prevalent and rampant. I see so
much online bullying going on. I see good kids becoming
online bullies, like kids who wouldn't do it in real life.
Kids who are sweet, good, hardworking, come from good families,
(09:28):
but they feel that temptation to be a bully on
social media. So I think that's one thing the show
did a really good job at portraying, because social media
really has become the centerpiece of the social lives of
young people these days. Like they get a little bit
of in person interaction, but it seems like the vast
majority of their interactions with their peers are coming online.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And we've talked about this too, like Internet, social media
has just shifted so much. The internet just used to be.
It used to be like a singular place in someone's house.
You come home, there's the family computer in the other
room or even in the living room, and just everybody
knew that that was the one place you want to
check your email fired up. Make sure no one's on
(10:12):
the phone and you can check your email. But now
the internet goes everywhere. It's so intertwined into everybody's life,
into your life, and to my life, into everybody's life,
especially these teens, that it's it's everywhere and it's hard
to it's hard to escape it. And it's not all
the kids' fault. You look at school and how much
everything is online. You look at the screens that they
(10:34):
got to look at to get their homework. It's just
it's everywhere. So I think, you know, when it comes
to social media and our kids, our teens, our patients,
our clients. I know, for us, we try to give
our health class presentations on internet use and internet safety
and being smart about it. One of our big ending
slides is what goes on the internet stays on the internet,
(10:55):
and don't say things online that you'd never say in person.
People really do, feeling bolden to think they're anonymous and
say whatever they want, and kids feeling get hurt, their
self esteem gets shot down. It's really tough. So I think, yeah,
social media has been it's tough. I mean, we need
the internet, social media connection good, those things are great,
(11:18):
But then there's a lot of really bad stuff to
it that we just I don't know, we just haven't
figured out how to fix it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Is the biggest social connection in young people's lives, and
when you take that away, you can literally see the
panic in their eyes. Like I've talked to kids who,
you know, they get grounded, their phone gets taken away,
and they legit become suicidal because they don't have the
connection to their entire world anymore. I've seen kids where
(11:46):
I talk about setting screen time limits and I can
see their I start to get wide and they look scared.
It looks scared to give up on that social media
because their entire lives have been built around it. Even
had a third grade or tell me the day that
you know, my parents don't let me have social media
and I feel like an outcast. I feel like a
loaner in my class because I'm the only one without
(12:08):
it in third grade.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, it's just so ubiquitous at this point.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
To go on a little bit of a tengent Actually,
Oregon is I don't know if it passed or is
going to pass or what it is, but there's there's
like a bill in the legislative process. I don't know
where where they're trying to have every school in the
state have some kind of cell phone banned policy. Good Now, Now,
the policy, the way that's being written is general enough
(12:39):
to where each school district can pick and choose how
they want to enforce it. But for my school district specifically,
they just released this a week ago in our last
board meeting. The way they're going to handle it is
it's going to be a door to door policy. So
they've been piloting this with our elementary and middle school
where there's no phones at all in the school, doesn't
matter if it's passing peer, it doesn't matter if it's lunch,
(13:01):
there's nothing you're sure I alady shouldn't have it in class.
There's no phones at all. So it's going to pass
to our high school next year. So that's that'll be interesting,
and it's it's I just don't know what the right
answer is. I think we're gonna have to meet somewhere
in the middle on some things we've gotten so far
so far to one side that like any kind of
policy you come up now, come up with now when
(13:23):
it comes to like technology and social media, you just
don't know what's gonna stick. What's gonna work. It's it's
a crazy battle.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It's the beginning stages of all these things. We don't
We're still just trying to figure out what's going to
be helpful, what's not. There's not a ton of scientific data,
there's not a ton of studies. It's just people trying
to figure this out and put out the fire as
fast as they can. There was a study that came
out of the UK, or survey that came out of
the UK recently, that showed about half of young people
(13:51):
feel like their phones have been hurtful for them in
their lives and would like to have less phone and
social media influence in their life. So I think I've
been saying this for a couple of years, but I
think finally the tides are starting to turn, and the
social acceptedness of cell phones and the and the acceptance
of that we've had of the technology running our lives
(14:15):
is finally starting to turn. That we're finally starting to
say like, hey, this is bad for us. It's getting
pretty obvious it's time to do something.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah. Kind of along the same lines, I mean, you
after you you kind of learn of the I don't
want to call it a bombshell. But after you learn
and see on the detective space that social media kind
of played a part into who Jamie was or what
his experiences were. You also hear about like his social life.
You get the sense that he has friends, like he
was with friends on the night of the of the murder,
(14:47):
but you also kind of feel like he's isolated, like
he has some alone time and he's alone with his
thoughts a lot. You know, with social isolation can come
an increase of naturally, it can come an increase of
online you and with that, unfortunately, a team can be
led to some pretty radical, dangerous things. Andrew Tait you
(15:08):
fuck and he was actually name dropping the show. Kids
can just get led to pretty dark places on the
Internet when they're feeling isolated and they're feeling bullied by
other people, maybe even bullied by the opposite gender, the
opposite sex, being feeling like they're ostracized. When they feel
that way and they consume certain content that it tells
(15:30):
them the opposite that like, no, it's not your fault,
it's their fault, and it starts to be little other people.
You start to consume a lot of that, and the
algorithms You've talked about this a lot, justin the algorithms
are super powerful. You like a couple of videos that
likes that message or portrays that message, you get more
of it. You like those videos, you get more of it.
And your thoughts and how you're impressed on as a
(15:52):
teenager gets quickly changed because of what you're being fed
on social media. So all that to be said, I
went on a little bit of a ramble, but why
do you think why do we think teens get drawn
to this kind of content? This like red pilled women
are bad, other people are bad. I'm in alpha male.
Why do you think teens get drawn to this kind
(16:14):
of content?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I think the biggest point I could make is that
this young generation is probably the loneliest generation in history
because they have less in person connections and more online connections,
which tend to be more hollow, more superficial, provide less
of a sense of community, less of a sense of connection.
And when you're lonely, you're vulnerable. You're looking for a pack,
(16:36):
you're looking for a group. And if you have someone
like Andrew Tate who comes on, hey, he's got money,
he's got women, he's got everything, a young man wants.
It's intoxicating. You say, I want to be like that guy.
I'm going to listen to him because I want what
he has, and it's so easy to manipulate people when
they're lonely.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I just really think about the algorithms and how much
you get fed with what you want. The TikTok for
you page for me gives me a lot of stupid
jokes and funny trends and stuff related to sports, because
that's the stuff I want. But for other people, if
you're getting a lot of entertain you're into that kind
of you know, toxic masculinity, alpha male, the blah blah blah,
(17:23):
big pressage. I don't know, you're into that and you
get fedted a lot, and then you kind of feel
like that's kind of the truth, you know, that's the
only truth. And I think, yeah, I think there is
a concern with not just kids Jamie's age in the show,
but just our young men in general, and seeing how
they talk about women or how they talk about other people.
(17:43):
I think it really became clear during the most recent
election seeing people shit on Kamala and not even say
her name right, just shitting on Kamala because she's a woman,
and it's like, look at her pedigree, what do you
mean she's not capable and doesn't know what she's doing.
Just all the the misogynistic, awful things and ideas that
they get from social media and the internet, and just
(18:07):
I think what's gonna ultimately happen. And I can't remember
the term that people have used on social media, but
I think what's ultimately gonna happen is we're gonna have
a big chunk of young men early teens who basically
end up being ostracized. And I want to say, how
don't want to describe this a big group of young
men and teens, straight young men, heterosexual young men and teens.
(18:31):
We're gonna be ostracized by the opposite sex and opposite
gender and are going to be lonely and at some
point may realize like the error and their ways, but
it might take a long time before we get to
that point. But yeah, I just this red pill, misogynistic
bullshit content. I can kind of say, from like a
Jamie's perspective, why something like that would be enticing, But
(18:53):
it is disheartening that kids and young men get enjoy
this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
One thing he brought up in the show a couple
of times was the eighty twenty rule, where eighty percent
of women are attracted to twenty percent of men. So
he literally says, like, if you're an unattractive man, you
have to trick a woman into liking you. And the
girl that he kills in the show, he tries to
connect with her. He tries to approach her in a
time of vulnerability after she's been kind of rejected by
(19:29):
someone else, and then she still rejects Jamie and that's
kind of what causes the rage that leads to the murder.
But boy, is that a sad commentary on the way
some men view relationships with women, where it's like, oh,
if you're not attractive, like you got to trick a
woman into loving you. It just trivializes relationships. It trivializes love.
(19:53):
Makes a lot of men feel like they're never going
to be loved and found attractive for being just who
they are. Then he was talking to a young man
the other day who said that he was hung up
on a girl and really liked her, And I'm like,
have you told her? Have you told her how you feel?
And he's like, no, that's not very manly, straight up
(20:15):
said that, and then I was like, well, it doesn't
matter what's manly. How can she know that you like
her if you don't tell her. He's like, oh, I
usually just tell her I don't like her, to try
and make her like me more. So, it was all
just like one big masculinity game. And this is a
legit thing going on in this young man's life, and
(20:36):
this is what he has been taught, this is what
he thought was normal in relationships. And I was like,
what kind of foundation are you building in that relationship
If you're literally building it on lies and trying to
trick other people. I'm like, that's not the relationship you want.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Man.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Trying to teach these young people, why treat women in
relationships like they are equals, like they deserve respect, and
to build that foundation of the relationship on honesty and trust.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
To move on a little bit. I think you know
one thing I liked about this show, and maybe if
we think about did you ever watch at least some
of thirteen Reasons Why?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh yeah, I watched like the first three seasons.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, it kind of went on too long. But here's
what I want to say about thirteen reasons why because
it was a book first, right, I think, oh yeah,
I figure I like this show as a just a
consumer of television or streaming service whatever. I liked it.
Once it got to like the fourth season or whatever,
it was like, all right, you're throwing too much shit in.
They're like, what Manny or whatever his name was, that
(21:40):
might be just fucking racist that I call him Manny.
I don't remember his name. His like parents got deported,
Like there was just so much stuff that got thrown into.
But I liked it because I did feel like there's
some pretty real things that that kids go through, that
teens go through in high school that they're that they
portrayed in the show. Yeah, And I bring that up
because I think that Adolescence did a better job of
(22:04):
it of like not making it a super like sensationalized
way of doing it in a way of like, oh yeah,
that feels like super realistic. Like there's like or as
thirteen reasons why. I was like, oh, ex gives me
over the top. This was definitely just felt more realistic.
So I bring all that up to say, like with
you know, with any show that talks about like teens, schools,
mental health, you often hear concerns from parents are like
(22:27):
what what could have been done? Like what what things
could we do? Like if this is a realistic portrayal,
what what should we do? So I guess that's that's
the question that I want us to talk about, is like,
what are some warning signs that we can give to parents, caregivers, guardians,
other adults that work with kids and teens. What are
some warning signs that we can give them?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Isolating too much? And this is a really, really tough
one because almost every single parent that comes into my
office says, my kid hangs out in the room for
hours every day on their screens and they're isolating. They're
not coming out and socializing the family. They're just in there.
Sometimes they're yelling at video games, but they're just they're
in their room for hours and hours and they don't
come out. But too much isolation bad sign. Giving up
(23:10):
on a lot of the hobbies and interests that they
used to do and just focusing on stuff online is
another big red flag. And then even just the language
that they use, how do they talk about other people,
how they talk about relationships, how they talk about their friends.
There can be little red flags and it's I can't
really think of any like great, great examples right now.
(23:30):
But some things that you're like, well, that's kind of
indicates that they're not thinking about things clearly, or maybe
there's an outside influence telling them how to think about
these things.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, in terms of language, right, yeah, I mean anything
that you talked about before, like the guys saying that's
not very the kids saying that's not very manly, to
tell a girl your feelings, referring to girls and women
in a derogatory way. Other things to look out for
work can just be I don't know, try to language
where they try to put themselves above anybody else, look
(24:04):
down on people. I think that could be some things
to look out for for the isolation piece. I'll also
add there's a big difference from like typical developmental withdrawal
of teens from parents, Like that's pretty expected in terms
of like pretty typical development for teens that withdraw from
parents a little more because they want to be with
(24:25):
people their age, their friends, their peers. Really, what to
look out for, also to add on is if it's
withdraw or isolation not just from parents, but also from friends.
If they're not hanging out with their friends anymore, and
they're not doing those things they used to do, like
you said, with the hobbies and interest. That's that's a
sign that the isolation is going in a bad direction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
In the show, do you think toxic masculinity had a
role in how Jamie dealt or didn't deal with his
emotions and struggles?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yes, if I just think of like the fact that
he was an Andrew Taatee fan and that he consumed
that kind of content. And I think even the dad
makes some kind of references later probably the fourth episode
where he just like maybe starts to regret the way
that he handled things. The dad, yeah he used to
(25:13):
handle things, and yeah, has some like guilt and shame.
So definitely, I think, And to give the listeners a
quick definition of toxic masculinity, it refers to the harmful
cultural norms and expectations that pressure men and boys to
suppress emotions, appear tough or dominant, and avoid behavior seen
as quote feminine. It can lead to emotional repression, aggression,
(25:37):
and unhealthy relationships, and it discourages seeking help for mental health.
So absolutely all of that, all of the above, you
see it that that pretty much explains Jamie to a
tea unfortunately, and where he was at in his very
young age.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
What do you think Jamie was really the way he
viewed women, the way he viewed relationships, He didn't value
those relationships with women. And the fact that he talks
about liking that content with Andrew Tait and gravitating towards that. Yeah,
they hinted at it. They never really like nailed it
on the head with that, but it got referenced a
couple of different times throughout the show that that was
(26:13):
a big factor in why he lashed out so aggressively
and violently towards the girl that he murdered.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it makes me think of the other guys too,
like Ben Shapiro or like Charlie Kirk, who like really
just try to like shit on people that they think
are less than Yeah, and just like, I don't know
if I can put this into words, I think people
like that these social media influencers, they make it seem
(26:42):
like shitting on or dunking on people is like respected
and that like that's the way you get ahead in society,
and it's just it's not a long term thing. I
don't know. Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say
is like these people like it runs out eventually, like
Andrew Tat at some point is either going to get
murdered for the crazy shit that he does, the sex
(27:04):
trafficking he's accused of, or he's gonna end up in prison.
Charlie Kirk has some wild allegations about trying to spend
time with underage people like there. Eventually these people get
what's coming to them, and I don't think unfortunately, our
young boys and young men are seeing that. They're just
seeing like the instant gratification of like ha ha ha,
(27:24):
made fun of this person with blue hair, What a loser,
you know.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And just yeah, And I've seen some Charlie Kirk videos
online and it's such a fantasy for his viewers, Like
he finds someone who's transgender or non gender specific, and
you know, he argues with them and he makes a
solid point and makes him look like an idiot. And
that's what the viewers want to see too. They're like
people that they don't understand and don't understand their lifestyle.
(27:51):
They want to tell them that they're right, and they
know more about their gender and sexuality than they do.
And it's just it's a fantasy that doesn't really happen
in real life, and it's intoxicating for young men, especially
who want to feel like they're right about the world.
But like you said, it's not real. It's not reality.
It's not the world that we should be living in.
(28:13):
One question I wanted to ask you too, is that
one of the big themes of the show Adolescents is
that parents just don't always get what's going on in
young people's lives. These days, the experience of young people
has changed so much in the past couple of decades
that older generations just can't know. You know. The detectives
were completely misinterpreting the social media posts. They're like, oh,
(28:34):
he must be a popular guy, people are commenting on stuff,
but he's getting bullied. And the emojis were the things
that were the tip off that it was bullying. But
the parents just had no idea what those meant. So, like,
how funny was it? I mean, how disconnected are we
from the younger generations?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I again, I think another really realistic example. Yeah, I
think there is a huge disconnect. I you know, I
talked about this, not the Humble Brag, but on one
of the times that our friend Emily Burris had me
on the show on Coin to be interviewed. I talked about, like,
how can parents try to start to make connections with
(29:13):
their kids again, And it really starts with just like
normalizing the talking to each other again. I don't think
a lot of parents, unfortunately, are doing that right now.
And I will say, I get it. Life is stressful
as fuck. Things are tough. It's probably hard. You're raising
a teenager or two teenagers, it's probably hard. Actually, I
(29:34):
just had a parent tell me this the other day.
You know, I get home from work at this time.
It's just really hard, Like it's I'm exhausted, and I
feel bad that I didn't really hey, so it's okay.
You know. I had to tell them, like it's okay,
it's okay if you didn't notice something going on, like
it's it's really tough right now. So I think, yeah,
I think unfortunately a lot of parents get disconnected because
of the way the world is right now because of smartphones.
(29:56):
Parents are not immune to the smartphone craziness epidemic that's
going on. They're influenced by it too, So I think
they just end up missing out on things because they're
just not aware. I think there was so much less
influences without the Internet and social media that you kind
of had a good idea of what was going on
because everyone was getting their knowledge kind of the same way,
(30:18):
you know, through TV and the news and some outlets
here and there. But now, like the influences feel almost
infinite and you just don't know. Kids be saying shit
all the time. You're like, what the hell does that mean?
There's just yeah, there's just that's my long, long winded
way of just saying like, yeah, for sure, there's there's
(30:38):
a disconnect. I think the open discussion with families is
happening less and less, and then the difference is that
the kids are learning about and moving away from their
parents are becoming more and more and it's it's hard
to reconnect when you feel you're just you're you have
an alien in your own house. And that can go
either way. It can go the kid away of like
I don't want to talk to my parents, they're weird,
(30:59):
out of they don't get me, and the kid and
the adult being like I don't know how to talk
to my kid, they're weird. It's different than what I'm
used to don't. I don't get it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I work with kids all day, every day, and I
hear stuff every day that I'm just like, what what
are you saying? What is that slang?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
And it's funny. Half the time kids are using the
slang themselves and they ask them what they mean, They're like,
I don't know. People just say it. I'm like, but
I think a really good point that we are very
disconnected from our kids these days. And the kids that
I work with that are like the toughest situations that
feel like they just have no connection with their parents.
(31:37):
I'll ask them like, hey, what do you do with
your parents? What do you do for fun? Yeah, and
they've got absolutely nothing in common that they do. Girls
most of the time say I don't know, we go
shopping every once in a while, and then boys usually
just say just nothing. They just do nothing with their parents.
So it is I mean, think about how much time
parents are on their phones on average, probably three four
hours a day for most adults, for kids up to
(31:59):
nine hours a day. Where's the time to be together,
Where's the time to learn what's going on in people's lives. Yeah,
most of the people who are parents these days didn't
grow up with Snapchat being what it is now, where
kids are sending constant inappropriate messages, nudes, drugs over Snapchat
(32:19):
all the time, and they don't understand how easy it
is for kids to really get themselves in some bad situations.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I can't even think of a good analogy. But it's
just like you, you don't even know where to start
with it, Like how do you start to explain to
someone who has no or minimal general knowledge of something
like Snapchat? Like how do you start to explain to
them the uses of it? How do you start to
You don't it's hard.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Let alone people being raised by grandparents like that generational
gap is rough. It's so different.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And the world kind of feels like I saw now,
it's hard to have energy to want to connect with
even your own family and kids when the world just
feels like oh every.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Day, yeah, we get bombarded with negativity from our cell phones,
bombarded and it makes the world seem terrible, when honestly,
the world is probably a better place than it ever
has been. Like maybe recent political stuff aside, but like
violence is down, murders are down, child violence is down.
(33:32):
This world is a safer place than it has been
in centuries, but we are made to believe that this
world is a terrible place and we need to be
constantly on guard because someone at every turn is going
to try and take advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Well, we've talked about the where we're lacking and where
we're struggling, but we've also talked about, like what are
some signs to look out for? So we try and
keep it at least semi positive and helpful. But I
guess to wrap up for today, what do we think
our kids and teens need, Like if we need to
get some messages out there, like, what do we think
(34:07):
what do we think they need?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Rapid fire connection, in person connection, good role models, a
sense of community, a flip phone less social media, ways
to get out anger in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Boom connection, in person connection. I'll double down on it. No,
I think I think all of that. I think for
me personally, I guess professionally in work, I'm interested to
see how the cell phone rule is going to work
next year, to see does that increase connection? Does it not?
Does it? I don't know what is it going to do,
(34:43):
So that might be a good kind of lesson to
just see what's going on. Actually, oh this is kind
of related. Are you familiar with doctor Angela Duckworth But
I can't. It might she wrote the book Grit. I
believe it was called. I don't remember exactly what it
was about, but she's a psychologist and right now she's
doing this huge study across educators and people that are
(35:09):
staff that work in public schools about cell phone bands
and like what ban does your school have in place
and that kind of stuff. So they're running some big
survey study idea, just to get a sense of what
things are like out there. So that'll be interesting to
see when it comes out. But yeah, there's I think
connection for sure, better hobbies, better ways to spend your time.
(35:32):
I love this the idea of sense of community. Now,
probably two years ago, three years ago when the Surgeon
General came out and said that one of the predictors
for how well a team does is they're connected this
to school in the school community. So I think that's
super important. But I guess i'll go with d all
of the above. I agree with you. I think those
(35:53):
are all great.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So thanks for coming up with this topic. I'm glad
we got to talk about it. Brought in a lot
of it cool themes that we'd like to talk about
on the show, masculinity, cell phones, parenting, what it's like
to be a young person in today's world. So yeah,
good idea, Eddie.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Appreciate it. And if you got through the whole episode
and you haven't watched it and you want to watch it,
still watch it. It was so good, especially when you
realize that it's all one shot.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
The acting is because if you make one little mistake,
you got to refilm the whole all over.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, but anyway, thank you all for listening. We appreciate you.
Let's play it out podcast Spotify. We got a new
review recently. Shout out to did I tell you this
one had justin?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
No, I don't think you did.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Oh my good, this one's for you man. Shout out
to Sweary Carrie. Apple Podcasts. It says five stars for
the rfk impersonation.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yes, but then it also went on to say, uh,
thank you for bringing us fact the base and comedic
updates in the mental health world.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Keep up the rad work, guys. So hey, I swear
to Carrie, We love that. But yeah, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
leave us a review, Leave us a comment, we'll read
it on our next episode. AH social media at millennialmac
and millenniaimac dot com. Thank you all for listening, and
remember take care of y'all mentals.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And take care of y'all mentals. Fuck. The content provider
in this podcast is for informational purposes only and does
not constitute legal, medical, or professional advice. All We seek
the advice of a qualified professional for any legal, medical,
or mental health concern. The hosts and the producers disclaim
any liability for any direct, indirect, incidental, consequential, or specific
(37:52):
damages arising from the use of this podcast or any
information contained there in. Opinions expressed by the hosts and
guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the
view of their employers or organizations that they may affiliate with.
By accessing and listening to this podcast, you agree to
hold harmless the hosts, guests, and producers from claims or
liabilities arising from your use of, or reliance on, the
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