November 14, 2024 • 38 mins
Dr. Alisa Karmel is an author and psychologist who wrote a book with her brother Ian Karmel about growing up fat, how they were treated by society, their journey to having healthy bodies, and how to reclaim the word fat. This episode contains humorous personal stories, useful tips for talking to young people about their weight, and a rousing endorsement for the book T-Shirt Swim Club.
Get your very own copy of the book here!
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/723034/t-shirt-swim-club-by-ian-karmel-and-alisa-karmel-psyd/
Get your very own copy of the book here!
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/723034/t-shirt-swim-club-by-ian-karmel-and-alisa-karmel-psyd/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to mmhc Eddie and I have
an excellent guest for the podcast today. While back, Eddie
got me into this book called T Shirt Swim Club.
The name comes from growing up overweight and even though
no one tells young fat people to wear a T
shirt while they swim, they know they have to wear
a T shirt because they internalize the messages that society
(00:23):
has given them. So Eliza Carmel wrote this book with
her brother Ian and she is the guest for today.
Doctor Carmel earned her doctorate in psychology with a health
emphasis from Pacific University. Eddie went to Pacific too. She's
a licensed psychologist at Psychological Services Connection. Additionally, she offers
(00:44):
health coaching through Doctor Eliza Carmel, LLC. She completed her
internship at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. She
has a Master's of Arts in Counseling Psychology from Pacific University,
a Master of Sciences and Nutrition from the National University
of Natural Medicine, and a Bachelor's of Sciences in Education
(01:05):
from the University of Oregon. We hope you find our
conversation with doctor Carmel as enlightening as we did. This
is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a
child adolescent psychiatry fellow.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And I'm Medi Curio, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
is here because we wanted to start a much need
to conversation about mental health.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Our goal is to teach you as much as we
can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
you enjoy today's episode.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia Mia, I
Heart mir Well, Alisa, It's so nice to have you
on the show because, to be quite honest, I loved
the book and I thought it was one of the
most insightful, real, raw, funny, informational books that I have
(02:05):
read in a long time. And on our show, we
really loved hearing stories, and Eddie and I in the
past done episodes on how we have struggled with our
own weight and body image, and so that was one
of the reasons why we love this book so much.
So we really appreciate you being here. Tell us your story.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, weight has been a primary part of my identity.
Being fat as a child, being fat in a family
where not everybody was viewing it as problematic, Receiving messages
that it wasn't acceptable across all different domains in my
life really got to me. I tried to do dieting,
(02:50):
I tried to do self work, I tried to meet
with mental health support, and it just never really seemed
like I had acceptance for me, or that I had
acceptance from society as to who I was. And I
can't tell you how many weight loss attempts I made
throughout my upbringing into my twenties, assuming I could find
(03:11):
love once I was skinny, assuming I could find success
once I was skinny, assuming all of these beautiful outcomes
would be the result of changing my body. And that
happened for a long time, until finally I just was
fed up with how much pain and kind of a
(03:33):
lack of understanding from everyone around me, including myself, about
what a healthy body image, what a healthy weight would
be for me, and how much of a chance I
had to even achieve that. Whatever it was. So I
feel like that's where my story is is kind of
in that pursuit to try to figure it out, and
(03:56):
to be honest with you, I don't think I figured
it out yet. I think it's an ongoing story. I
think that the work I do with my patients today
continues to write it. And I'm pretty humbled by it
because I don't think there's one clear answer for everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Real I love it. When I told Justin that I
read this book, I like, I don't even know where
to start with it. I'll throw it in there. I
don't want to get too like sidetracked and be like, fuck,
this was great and I love this and we'll get there.
But you talked about it a little bit. I think
you mentioned it on your website and in the book too.
I mean just kind of like your journey to get
in here. And I think we can assume from the
(04:33):
book in your website that life experiences have kind of
led to where you're at now as a psychologist. But
can you fill in the gaps too, of like what
got us here? What got you to be and a psychologist?
I think I saw recently on your Instagram that you
passed one of the exams too, So congratulations on that
but yeah, walk us through the journey of becoming a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
It's kind of exciting because this is the first interview
I participated in since becoming a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let's call.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
When I read that question, I'm like, yeah, we're here.
It's been a long time. It's been a lot of work.
I think the main thing is is, through my own difficulty,
I could never find a healthcare provider that provided the
support that I needed, Like they would provide eating disorder
(05:23):
support or depression support, or here's a nutritionist to make
you less fat, or here's a nature path to try
to address you know, your your hormones, or to try
to address you know the food that you're choosing. I mean,
I tried so many different types of providers, and I
often felt fat shamed, but never really felt understood or
(05:46):
felt that I was able to do the work that
I felt like I needed to do in order to
understand me in my body, fat or less fat. So
I decided to become what I was looking for, which
is why I went through all the education I did
in search of trying to figure out what that would require.
And I think I got there, and I think I
(06:06):
hope that's the type of support I provide to my
clients today.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I know there's different tracks for psychologists. There's you know,
there's like forensic and child aholescent. Would you consider yourself
to be like a health psychologist? Do you feel like
that word's okay to use with with where you're kind
of aiming with your work? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So they're very particular with when you can say health psychologists,
So I can't actually claim that status yet. So I
think that's going to be my next little venture. So
I want to sit at this summit for a while
embrace being a psychologist finally, but I can see that
being in pursuit to pursue the certification to be able
(06:44):
to identify as a health psychologist. But I definitely do
work in health. Most of the folks that I work
with have concerns with weight, have struggled with weight most
of their life, are pursuing weight management, whether that's GLP
one surgery, diet, exercise, or some mix sure of those. Yeah,
And I work with them to remind them to do
the work internally because a lot of them think they
(07:07):
have but haven't. And so I think that's part of
the health psychology that we're engaging in if you will,
as a psychologist with a health emphasis as I always describe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's good. I mean we
try to teach as much as we can on the
show too, through different episodes, and like, yeah, nuances. You know,
we've talked about like being an art therapist, right, there's
there's specific things you have to do to be considered
an art therapist. Yes, if you don't do those things,
you can do therapeutic art making, but you're not an
(07:37):
art therapist, right, So I think that's cool. I appreciate
you explaining that justin I'm gonna jump to the next
one because this was one that just stood out. You know,
in researching and getting ready for today's episode. There's an
interview that you were doing. And I'm really bad at
like remembering celebrities names, and I'm pretty sure this person
was like a celebrity that was doing the interviewing. But
(07:58):
no disrespect to them, it's just my own fault. But
they talked about this idea of like they mentioned the
F word, and I was like, oh, okay, fuck, like
that's you know, the bad word, F word whatever, But
then it was clear that he meant the word fat,
And I wasn't like I knew what the interview was about.
It was about the book. The book is called The
T Shirt Swim Club, Like there's there's it's about body
(08:21):
weight and fat, fatness and all of that. But when
you've guys finally said the word, I was like, it
almost felt like worse than the other F word. And
I think that's just kind of how like society programs
us a little bit of like that that's just a
bad word to use. But I really appreciated how passionate
you were and trying to reclaim the word. So can
you talk a little more on just your thoughts of
(08:42):
reclaiming the F word or reclaiming the word fat.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I was so outraged that he said the F word
because I was so thrown off. I'm like, what are
we talking about? And then like in that interview, you
actually see a click for me, me realizing that he's
referencing fat. And then I had to get it together
and realized that I had to educate this person because
fatness should not be a bad word. There should not
(09:07):
be stigma against a descriptor. And my brother and I
kind of mock at it through the book of like
these different chapters with different ways to describe fatness and
all these different adjectives. But my brother and I when
we started writing this book, we use the word fat intentionally, frequently,
kind of aggressively to be able to reclaim it, because
(09:27):
it is our word. It's one of many words, and
it's not like we can hide from fatness, like it's
here in front of us, it's here today, it's here
to stay likely And so I take it as my
responsibility to be able to reclaim that power and to
be able to identify as fat. I mean, gosh, for
so many years I tried to like not show my fatness,
(09:52):
as if it was something a T shirt could hide,
when in reality, it's like, yeah, that is part of me.
I'm a fat person. I'm also a fat and healthy person.
I'm also a fat and brilliant person. I'm also a
fat and kind person. And these are I'm fat and
beautiful and a lot of times when you're fat, you
don't get to be those things. At least that's what
the word, or the stigma behind the word, has taught us.
(10:14):
So with my patients, I have support groups, I have
individual therapy, and with them, I try to say like
own it. You know, it's okay. It doesn't mean that
you're failing. It doesn't mean that you're excluded from society.
It doesn't mean that you don't get to eat and
enjoy that cake, or eat and enjoy that pistachio or
those almonds. Like it's okay. And I really want to
(10:37):
encourage that and encourage myself again, I'm still writing that
story for myself, so it's it's work. I mean, it's
not going to happen overnight, but I'm definitely determined to
make it happen.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, they're reclaiming the word fat really seems akin to
the lgbt QI A two s plus reclaiming the word
queer or like. At first you hear those words, and
even reading the book, I was like, oh, they're using
that word a lot. I felt myself kind of internally
wincing even just reading the way you refer it. But
over time my reaction got less and less and less,
(11:12):
and I think and I was just thinking, that's the
whole point. That's exactly what you and your brother Ian
were trying to do with this. In your journey, We're
all about like shouting out people who have brought us
to where we are in the show. Who have your
biggest influences be? Who would you shout out right now?
Who have helped you along the way, understand yourself and
(11:35):
help you get here in your career too.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Definitely, my brother Ian and I hysterically did not talk
about our bodies or our fatness through it. It was
as if we were keeping the secret from one another,
even though we were both in the fatness side by
side at those tables with our grandparents in those fat
shaming moments, but we didn't want to talk about it.
(11:58):
But since then we've definitely grown a lot more comfortable
with it. My mother, who we references Saint Sue in
the book, has always, always, always encouraged me to assert myself,
and I think I mentioned a few pretty important stories
in our book where she really did encourage me to
fight and own my space and educate providers when they
(12:22):
weren't being fair towards my weight. My husband has been
like beyond accommodating of my career path and my pursuit.
I mean, I am one fierce woman professionally and personally,
and he loves that and he supports that and lifts
me up and never makes me feel bad about it,
(12:43):
never questions my strange ambitions. I'm going to write a book.
Howes that sound like I'm going to go get my doctorate?
Is that cool?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Like?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Can we move for like a year away from our life?
Can we uproot? Is that cool of you? So it's
been pretty remarkable to have such a supportive partner, and
I'm super stoked now to have a child to try
and implement everything that I've learned and understand and learn
from what I did and what my experience was, and
try to provide her with a different reality where she
(13:12):
can't use the word fat, where she can be proud
of her body and her personality and herself without feeling
shameful the way that I did. So I think those
are probably the top runners that I would name. Yeah,
I love.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It if you haven't read the book yet, or if
you're interested in reading the book. For any of the listeners,
it's kind of split up into two sections, right like
Ian is in the beginning and then you're the second
half of the book. But it was really interesting how
while you guys had your two separate halves, you guys
would kind of relate on similar topics or similar experiences,
And for me, there was a lot of like light
(13:44):
bulb moments of like damn, so that's not just me,
or like we're in this, like we're in the same boat,
Like that's that was really normalizing for me to read
that a bunch of times and not just like one
or two, but it felt like the whole book. So
I guess my question is going through that was the
process like writing this book with your brother, Like was
it like you go first, I go second, was it
(14:06):
let's go kind of at the same time? Like and
I know for year half there was a lot of
like references and like research and like a lot of
it was kind of like more like that academic side,
but also like really easy to understand and digest, which
I thought was really cool. But like, what was that process?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Like it was very messy. Yeah, we had a very
clear plan when we went into the book proposal, and
that probably changed a dozen times through writing it, just
because you know, it's the human experience that we were describing,
and we all know how clean that isn't you know.
(14:42):
It's such a unique thing and kind of a hot
topic but also really taboo, and so they wanted us
to be relatable, and my brother's great at that. I'm
great at that, but very differently. He's an entertainer. He
knows how to read the room and entertain to it,
and I'm good at one on one and advocacy. So
(15:03):
we tried to take our specialties and put it into
an organized piece. And I also sometimes recommend people read
his chapter followed by my version of the chapter, if
that makes sense. It makes a little bit more. There's
a little bit more like linearity to it. There's more
connection because I kind of referenced him as like a
(15:24):
case study, if you will, and I appreciate what you say.
There's definitely heavy research in my section, very dissertation like,
because there is a lot of research, and it was
really hard to try to be doctor Alisa Carmel but
also Alisa and I really wanted to make sure my
voice came through while also providing something for people to
lean on to be like, oh, this is why that
(15:46):
is being said, or this is why I feel that way.
This research says so. And it was difficult to do so,
but I think that with the right support and the
right editing, we got to a place that felt really good.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
In a world where it feels scary to yourself first
and take care of yourself, and like something like going
to the doctor because of negative experiences that I think
you guys both reference and having, and I relate it
to that so much. I just remember thinking growing up,
how many times I'd go to the doctor and they'd
basically just tell me the same thing and just leaving
feeling like so defeated as an eleven twelve year old
(16:19):
of like damn, this doctor just kind of shit on me,
and I'm a little kid, like this really sucks. And
I think both of you referenced it at one point
of just again, yeah, the importance of we are allowed
to take care of ourselves. And I think maybe even
Ian specifically said, like go to the doctor, like you
go to the doctor. It's important, and I will say
I think so. I just checked my good Reads. I
(16:39):
finished the book on September eighth, and I think with
a lot of thinking and a lot of processing of
just like after that book, I did recently go to
the doctor after a few years of not going just
because of like fear and like worry. So I appreciate
that a lot, and I think the book will please
do it really did push me in that direction. It
had been a few years since I'd gone, and just
(17:01):
like wrestling back and forth of like the doctor and like, shit,
what are they gonna tell me? What are they gonna
what are they gonna shoot on me for this time?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
And was it as bad as you thought it would be?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
No, it wasn't, And I'm glad. I went and shout
out doctor, doctor Hayes. He's a resident and we had
a good conversation and it went really well and it
was cool. He was super, super nice. We just had
a good, good talk, good plan of you know, continuing
on on some good lifestyle changes and that we could
agree on. And yeah, this is the part that I
really wanted to share, and I didn't write it in
(17:31):
the notes because I figured it would come up. But yeah,
for anyone listening, you know it's in the book. We'll
tell you too. For a miliariy mental health channel, go
take care of yourselves. It's okay to go to the doctor,
and you deserve that.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
And I want to add to that point too, where
you know, as a clinical child and adolescent psychiatrist, I
have a decent amount of people that come in and say, oh,
we were seeing a different provider, but all they ever
focused on was the wait. And I'm a mental health
capacity and still people well that's all they focus on.
And sometimes it's our medicines that's increasing the weight in
(18:05):
these young people too. And my favorite chapter of Yours, Eliza,
is when you talk about how you met a new
doctor had explained all of your research and how you
were trying to decrease the stigma around fatness. You're trying
to change the way providers and doctors talk to their patients.
And he's still fat shamed you in the appointment And
(18:30):
I just like reading this book. My job dropped. And
I know this is a cheesy question. What were your
feelings and emotions in the moment.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Oh my gosh, I'm getting heated, just like hearing you
talk about it. I was, you know, I I I
was fat shamed again, which silenced me, which I It's
so funny. My dog recently got fat shamed. We went
to the veterinarian and he had a yeast Infectioniziar and
(19:02):
the dog or the dog the veterinarian went straight to
thinking that he had a weight problem. Was and I
went off on the veterinarian just complete like sympathetic nervous
system overload, just like what is wrong, you know? And
the veterinarian is like, well, how else would you like
me to talk about it? And I couldn't even come
up with an alternative. In the moment, I was so
(19:23):
angry and riled up and hurt and disappointed and surprised
and all of these emotions at the same time. My
husband asked me to leave. I did, and then I
was pacing and trying to think, like this happened again.
I'm having the same emotions provoked that happened in that
appointment for my dog, who probably doesn't know what we're
(19:44):
talking about, but I do. And I still can't speak
up in this moment. I have all this education, this
is what I do for a living, and I can't
speak up. And I think that's what irritates me the
most out of that is that despite all of that,
I can't speak up. I feel sa island. And what
about the people who don't have the education? M Yeah,
(20:06):
what about the people who don't have that advocacy personality
or don't have that desire to change the white central culture?
What about those folks? Do they just receive it? And yeah, Okay,
that's true, I am fat or what have you. And
so I guess that's what happens to me, is I
get in this rumination just like a distraught of like,
this is a problem, this is this is a huge problem,
(20:28):
and how do we fix that? How do we change
these narratives that these agendas that come at innocent folks
who are trying to just go to take care of
their health. And I think that's a really hard question
to answer, but I'm trying to work on it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Just you guys book this conversation. My hope is that
we can kind of move in that direction. And I
think the hard part is then we can get into
the conversation of like why does it need to fall
on us to like try to make that change and
not other people to try to help us on that.
But I I again, I think personally, the book really
impactful for me. So I appreciate that a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
You know, I've noticed that teaching might be a necessary
angle too, So I've started a course at the local
Natural Medicine university and hopefully I can get in that
way and just help people learn maybe different ways to communicate. Right,
I think communication can be a really easy route.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Because it feels like in our society we pride ourselves
on how forward thinking we are, how progressive we are.
I mean maybe about half the country, but there are
these different groups of people that have their moments, and
we're getting better. Although we have progress on trans people,
on gay rights, on people of color, but it still
(21:44):
feels like fat people there's open season, like people can
say whatever they want, they can be bullied still for
being fat. It seems like for some reason, that's the
one that's still kind of stuck in the past. So
I love that you're having this conversation because it doesn't
feel like it's been had yet or it had nearly enough.
(22:06):
And to build on that. The way we talk to
young people about their weight is so important. And I
know you guys have like listed in the book specifics
for how to speak to young people about their weight.
But I'm curious that what are your favorites, what do
you feel like have been the most impactful, the most
useful in your life?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Well, first of all, how do we bring weight into
the conversation? You know, Like I for me, I'll due
respect to my family, it was brought in as year
overweight and I was like, well, what's the other Like,
what are my options here? And I had never been
talked to about weight until I was told that I
was doing it wrong. So then what angle do you
(22:49):
go from there? You know, if a child is introduced
to a topic as no, that's wrong, then then how
do they even understand the topic? So it shouldn't be
a weapon. It shouldn't be It shouldn't be a way
to make kids feel awful, because there's enough things that
make children feel badly. And it should be a safe
(23:11):
conversation and it should be a conversation that starts not
from an angle of judgment, expectation, and fear or stigmatizing
the word fat. Also, it should be brought up just
as other concepts are brought up. Let's talk about the
weather and how we check temperatures on that. Let's bring
up weight and how we check a temperature on that. Like,
(23:33):
there's a lot of different ways that you can bring
it into a conversation with a child that isn't accusational,
that isn't judgmental, and isn't designed to make them feel
like they need to diet, you know, and it's I
get a lot of parents who are how do I
get my kids to eat healthy. It's like it's the
same concept. Like my child won't eat anything but cheese
right now. That's the only thing she'll eat no matter what. Okay,
(24:00):
so what do I do, Like do I get hung
up on that? And no, no, no, And here's broccoli,
Like that's not going to work, you know. So coming
at it from an angle of curiosity compassion and connecting
them with her body, I think is really big. I mean,
I didn't really know my body besides it was bad
and that it was overweight, and those were the qualities
(24:23):
I knew. So teaching them, you know, all the parts
of your body. There's a great book that I was
reading to my daughter that I'm going to read to
her every day of her life if I can. I
Love all of me and it goes into like every
part of your body and how to be different in
all the ways. And I think that's gorgeous, Like we
need to have that. I didn't have that. So you
(24:43):
know what advice do I have for adults talking to
kids about weight? Don't wait till it's a problem and
talk to them about it neutraally, because it's just another
metric and they should.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Know that, Yeah, my little one loves cheese. Some reason,
it's very palatable for the toddler. It must be he's
learning where it's like crazy, but he will just go cheese.
Cheese just loves it. Every nearly wants a little bit
(25:17):
of cheese. O.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Man, it's so hard. We just stayed with my mother
for a month. Our kitchen was getting renovated, and she
just I'd come out and there'd be like four different
kinds of cheeses on her plate and I'd be like, ma,
what are you doing. She'd be like, she wanted a
piece of I'm like, you were so nanning her so
hard right now, I can't. She's like, stay away, go
(25:39):
back to your sessions.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I was like, oh, grandparents are the biggest enablers.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
It's wild. You know. One chapter that I had to
go back and relook at because it's the one that
I kept thinking of was yours. That was the aspirations
can hinder inspiration, and it I think it stood out
a lot because as I was reading, I was like, damn,
there's definitely some clothes in my closet that I like
(26:05):
hang on to of like maybe one day again. But
just by the end of it, just the way you
were able to talk about just how like, as we
get older, our bodies change, we don't have to get
back to that, like we may never get back to
that certain type of body, and like just how much
basically like the basic thing of like how much these
like maybe potentially unattainable goals can just ultimately hold this back.
(26:30):
And I thought the way you talked about it was
so cool and so helpful for me. And again I
was like, damn, I know exactly what clothes I'm kind
of hanging on to, And it really made me think.
And again I think it really contributed to kind of
decisions going forward that were helpful for me because of
reading it. But I just wonder what thoughts you have
about like the psychology around clothes and getting dressed. You
(26:54):
touched on it a little bit in the chapter, But
what what do you think would be good for our
listeners to hear.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
We can sometimes the most cruel to ourselves. So many
of my patients when they start working with me, they
have some outfit that they really you know, miss or
that the brides I need to get into this wedding dress,
or I you know, there's this wedding dress that I
really want to buy, or the postpart of moms who
(27:22):
you know, they had a body and then they had
a baby and now they have this body, or the
folks who have gone through a weight loss surgery and
the results weren't what they wanted them to be, or
they've been on a weight loss journey and they just
can't seem to get to that high school whatever weight
that they keep referencing as their happy times, right, they
(27:43):
connect weight to a memory of a mood when I
was skinny. He loved me when I was skinny, things
were easier. And then they connect that to their clothing, right,
like there's an outfit I want to wear, and it's
as if this outfit is the ticket to their happiness.
And it turns out that's not true. It turns out
(28:05):
that there's so many other variables that contribute to our happiness.
It just seems that closes like the token, the ticket,
if you will, to that happiness. And so I don't
know about you guys, but I have a couple bins
in my mudroom. Some of them are these sizes when
I was this side, when I was this sage and
doing this diet, and some of them were from my
(28:26):
fatter days. And this is you probably don't have a
maternity box, but I have a maternity box, and I,
you know, I have a lot of different boxes of
clothing and I'm hanging on to them. Why. I don't know.
I don't know if it's hope. I don't know if
it's disappointment. I don't know if it's you know, some
sort of some reasoning that I haven't really explored yet.
(28:49):
But I think many of us have some version of that,
and I think unpacking that, both literally and figuratively, could
be really helpful for folks. And a lot of times
people say, if I could just fit into whatever clothing
it is, things would be different. And maybe, but as
I try to say in the book, that change doesn't
necessarily guarantee the outcome that you think. And sometimes we
(29:13):
can get to that outcome in a different way, but
maybe not, maybe never. And what would that mean to you?
Are you defeated now? Or is there a different way
you can look at yourself? Is there a different way
you can interact with your body and your wardrobe in
a way that makes you actually feel worthy? So I
think it's complicated, and I think the conversations need to
(29:34):
be had, and a lot of folks aren't having them.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I think that's just so helpful to hear from you,
that part when you're saying, like, you know, why do
I have these clothes and that I don't know them. Damn,
I feel you on that. I think I've had that
conversation with myself. And yeah, again, that chapter just stood
out so much to me, and I appreciate it, and
I appreciate the way you wrote about it.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
If someone is thinking about making a change or trying
to be more open and accepting of who they are,
what their body looks like, what would you recommend as
first steps to people in this journey?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
What's motivating your desire to make that change? I mean truly,
like there's the surface answer which I get at the
intake usually, which is that my doctor told me I
have high blood pressure, or I have significant pain, or
I need to a knee replacement and I can't until
I get to this weight, or I have an event
(30:34):
that somebody who will judge me will see me and
if I look one way, then they'll be kinder or
not right. But then when we get underneath that, I
like to unpack people's weight stories and when weight even
became relevant to them, when they found out that who
they were wasn't okay, what they looked like wasn't okay.
Who told that to them? Was it a caregiver? Was
(30:56):
it an important relationship? Intimate relationship? And I know that
you asked kind of a very pointed question of what
is the first step, But I think the first step
has a lot of mini steps of identifying what the
roots of all of this is and are those roots
something they're willing to uncover, like are they willing to
do that work? And some people aren't, some people aren't.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
One of my favorite parts, and you mentioned this earlier
of the book, was that in between chapters, you guys
discuss the different names that are often associated with people
who are overweight, Like for me, growing up, I was
called husky And that was a part of the book
where we talk about the word husky and using it
(31:39):
for and I just that hit so hard. You already
mentioned that you were told that you were overweight when
you were young, But what are the words that you
remember that described you when you were a kid that's
still that still are there that you still feel.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So that's a good question. I was nailed with fat,
but it wasn't. It was from this question came up
in an earlier interview. But the first time I realized
I was fat and that it was bad was when
I was a cheerleader doing junior cheer for a football
(32:15):
team and one of the football players called me fat
in front of the entire football team my cheer squad,
and I was startled. I was shook, I was completely
My purity just left the building. I was like, oh,
this is not okay. And then all of a sudden,
(32:35):
everybody became judgment to me. So fatness was weaponized to
me young, so whenever somebody called me fat, I felt
that I was being attacked. And I think that's why
it's so important to me now to help reclaim that word.
I remember when like Abercrombie and Fitch and Hollister came
out with their clothing and I tried so desperately to
fit into them, and they didn't offer sizes that fit
(32:57):
my body. And then Mervin's and Target and nord Strum
started coming up with plus size, and then I was like, oh,
maybe I can fit into that, and so I thought
plus size was hope, but then also that was weaponized.
So I think those were the two descriptors that were
part of my awareness and the ones that I use.
But again I tried to hide from both of them,
(33:18):
and I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Mervins is a throwback.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I'n't heard that a while.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We grew up in I almost feel like I go
back to my like I can think of the Mervins
that we went to, you know, where I grew up
in the Bay Area, and like I think they if
you think of like the first time, I'm trying to
remember that, like I no longer wore like the kids size.
I had to just go to like a smaller adult size,
(33:49):
and just like that was that was significant and I
think coupled with some negative doctor's appointments for for years
at the same you know, years and years, that was
pretty tough. I think I think of how much, like thankfully,
and I know Ian talked about it too, but just
like playing football, I think was really helpful because it
was one of those things where it was like I
(34:11):
was rewarded for being bigger essentially, and I was totally
awarded for that, and that was like kind of the
only time that that happened. So like from you know,
it was seventh grade when I started playing whatever through
when I finished in college, like that time was like
Eddie big good, like that's a good thing. But then
after that, no more good, like not a good thing,
(34:32):
and I think, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I would.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
I mean that's why I entered rugby. And I remember
having a conversation with my brother in a pool wearing
T shirts at some point in our youth where I
was feeling so fat and so rejected, and he's like,
screw cheerleading, like go to the field, you have it,
use it. So I joined the rugby team and it
was the first time my body felt like it was
(34:57):
acceptable and encouraged and like appreciate. So I feel you
on that like football good?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Okay, yes, the hard part was only being five eight
in a defensive lineman, like the football dream was ending
at some point, like it was never and I knew
that after I was like a sophomore like I'm not
getting any taller. This is this is gonna be over soonish.
So that's funny enough.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I ended it for you. I couldn't keep up with
the drinking that was required.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I've heard.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
There's might be people party.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I could not keep up. I couldn't What is it
about that? Sports just a track like out of the
Fleet to.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
That's where not into it. No, I got all my
questions and my my thoughts shared and answered. We appreciate
you so much coming on and letting us interview you,
and uh, I think it's really cool that we got
to read your book and we got to talk to
super Ready.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Thanks for reading the book.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
We're fanboying a little bit over being able to get
pid you because honestly, it's it was one of the
best books I've read in recent memory, because it was
it was just so real and Ian's hilarious, and you've
got so much perspective because we haven't mentioned it yet,
but Ian used to be a writer on The Late
(36:23):
Late Show with James Gordon, so and he's done a
lot of stand up comedy and so it's just it
has everything. You guys are a great one two punch.
You guys are very different from each other, but it
adds such a depth to the book that it was
a joy to read.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Truly, thank you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
It was it was a dream to write it. I mean,
it was really cool to write next to my brother,
to do something together. It's something that we have so
much passion about, and it means a lot to me
that you guys took something from it. I mean it
was really like our heart's run our sleep in this book.
So the fact that it meant something, that it landed,
and that hired you guys to even reach out to
(37:01):
me about it, I mean, it's just a really honor
to be able to talk with you guys about this.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
We appreciate you being here. I remember when Ian tweeted
about it. I did the pre order on Amazon, So yeah,
it's kind of it feels kind of full socalish to
be to do that and to be here with you
for our listeners. Where can they find you online? Social media?
What would be helpful if anybody maybe in the area
wants to reach out to you. Where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I'm on Instagram. Doctor Elisa Carmel is my handle, and
I have a website also, doctor earlysacarmel dot com. Yeah,
and I'm an organ so I can do coaching throughout
the country, throughout the world, really, and I work at
a clinic here in Oregon, Psychological Services Connection, great little place,
and I provide virtual support. So I'm your girl.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I got you cool, and I might even be sending
some people your way. So if you ever see like
who and Wyoming is trying to get out home, that's me.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
That's my patience.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Okay, I thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well. To our listeners. To doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you
all for being here. Well, we'll play it out real
quick and we'll wrap it up like we usually do
for those listening. You know the deal Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
Feel free to leave us a review. You can leave
us a comment that we'll read later on social media
at Millennial MHC and at our website Millennial MC dot com.
(38:29):
Thank you again to doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you all
for listening. Thank you all for just being here, and
remember to take care of y'all mentals
Hello, and welcome back to mmhc Eddie and I have
an excellent guest for the podcast today. While back, Eddie
got me into this book called T Shirt Swim Club.
The name comes from growing up overweight and even though
no one tells young fat people to wear a T
shirt while they swim, they know they have to wear
a T shirt because they internalize the messages that society
(00:23):
has given them. So Eliza Carmel wrote this book with
her brother Ian and she is the guest for today.
Doctor Carmel earned her doctorate in psychology with a health
emphasis from Pacific University. Eddie went to Pacific too. She's
a licensed psychologist at Psychological Services Connection. Additionally, she offers
(00:44):
health coaching through Doctor Eliza Carmel, LLC. She completed her
internship at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. She
has a Master's of Arts in Counseling Psychology from Pacific University,
a Master of Sciences and Nutrition from the National University
of Natural Medicine, and a Bachelor's of Sciences in Education
(01:05):
from the University of Oregon. We hope you find our
conversation with doctor Carmel as enlightening as we did. This
is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a
child adolescent psychiatry fellow.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And I'm Medi Curio, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
is here because we wanted to start a much need
to conversation about mental health.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Our goal is to teach you as much as we
can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
you enjoy today's episode.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia Mia, I
Heart mir Well, Alisa, It's so nice to have you
on the show because, to be quite honest, I loved
the book and I thought it was one of the
most insightful, real, raw, funny, informational books that I have
(02:05):
read in a long time. And on our show, we
really loved hearing stories, and Eddie and I in the
past done episodes on how we have struggled with our
own weight and body image, and so that was one
of the reasons why we love this book so much.
So we really appreciate you being here. Tell us your story.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, weight has been a primary part of my identity.
Being fat as a child, being fat in a family
where not everybody was viewing it as problematic, Receiving messages
that it wasn't acceptable across all different domains in my
life really got to me. I tried to do dieting,
(02:50):
I tried to do self work, I tried to meet
with mental health support, and it just never really seemed
like I had acceptance for me, or that I had
acceptance from society as to who I was. And I
can't tell you how many weight loss attempts I made
throughout my upbringing into my twenties, assuming I could find
(03:11):
love once I was skinny, assuming I could find success
once I was skinny, assuming all of these beautiful outcomes
would be the result of changing my body. And that
happened for a long time, until finally I just was
fed up with how much pain and kind of a
(03:33):
lack of understanding from everyone around me, including myself, about
what a healthy body image, what a healthy weight would
be for me, and how much of a chance I
had to even achieve that. Whatever it was. So I
feel like that's where my story is is kind of
in that pursuit to try to figure it out, and
(03:56):
to be honest with you, I don't think I figured
it out yet. I think it's an ongoing story. I
think that the work I do with my patients today
continues to write it. And I'm pretty humbled by it
because I don't think there's one clear answer for everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Real I love it. When I told Justin that I
read this book, I like, I don't even know where
to start with it. I'll throw it in there. I
don't want to get too like sidetracked and be like, fuck,
this was great and I love this and we'll get there.
But you talked about it a little bit. I think
you mentioned it on your website and in the book too.
I mean just kind of like your journey to get
in here. And I think we can assume from the
(04:33):
book in your website that life experiences have kind of
led to where you're at now as a psychologist. But
can you fill in the gaps too, of like what
got us here? What got you to be and a psychologist?
I think I saw recently on your Instagram that you
passed one of the exams too, So congratulations on that
but yeah, walk us through the journey of becoming a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
It's kind of exciting because this is the first interview
I participated in since becoming a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let's call.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
When I read that question, I'm like, yeah, we're here.
It's been a long time. It's been a lot of work.
I think the main thing is is, through my own difficulty,
I could never find a healthcare provider that provided the
support that I needed, Like they would provide eating disorder
(05:23):
support or depression support, or here's a nutritionist to make
you less fat, or here's a nature path to try
to address you know, your your hormones, or to try
to address you know the food that you're choosing. I mean,
I tried so many different types of providers, and I
often felt fat shamed, but never really felt understood or
(05:46):
felt that I was able to do the work that
I felt like I needed to do in order to
understand me in my body, fat or less fat. So
I decided to become what I was looking for, which
is why I went through all the education I did
in search of trying to figure out what that would require.
And I think I got there, and I think I
(06:06):
hope that's the type of support I provide to my
clients today.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I know there's different tracks for psychologists. There's you know,
there's like forensic and child aholescent. Would you consider yourself
to be like a health psychologist? Do you feel like
that word's okay to use with with where you're kind
of aiming with your work? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So they're very particular with when you can say health psychologists,
So I can't actually claim that status yet. So I
think that's going to be my next little venture. So
I want to sit at this summit for a while
embrace being a psychologist finally, but I can see that
being in pursuit to pursue the certification to be able
(06:44):
to identify as a health psychologist. But I definitely do
work in health. Most of the folks that I work
with have concerns with weight, have struggled with weight most
of their life, are pursuing weight management, whether that's GLP
one surgery, diet, exercise, or some mix sure of those. Yeah,
And I work with them to remind them to do
the work internally because a lot of them think they
(07:07):
have but haven't. And so I think that's part of
the health psychology that we're engaging in if you will,
as a psychologist with a health emphasis as I always describe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's good. I mean we
try to teach as much as we can on the
show too, through different episodes, and like, yeah, nuances. You know,
we've talked about like being an art therapist, right, there's
there's specific things you have to do to be considered
an art therapist. Yes, if you don't do those things,
you can do therapeutic art making, but you're not an
(07:37):
art therapist, right, So I think that's cool. I appreciate
you explaining that justin I'm gonna jump to the next
one because this was one that just stood out. You know,
in researching and getting ready for today's episode. There's an
interview that you were doing. And I'm really bad at
like remembering celebrities names, and I'm pretty sure this person
was like a celebrity that was doing the interviewing. But
(07:58):
no disrespect to them, it's just my own fault. But
they talked about this idea of like they mentioned the
F word, and I was like, oh, okay, fuck, like
that's you know, the bad word, F word whatever, But
then it was clear that he meant the word fat,
And I wasn't like I knew what the interview was about.
It was about the book. The book is called The
T Shirt Swim Club, Like there's there's it's about body
(08:21):
weight and fat, fatness and all of that. But when
you've guys finally said the word, I was like, it
almost felt like worse than the other F word. And
I think that's just kind of how like society programs
us a little bit of like that that's just a
bad word to use. But I really appreciated how passionate
you were and trying to reclaim the word. So can
you talk a little more on just your thoughts of
(08:42):
reclaiming the F word or reclaiming the word fat.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I was so outraged that he said the F word
because I was so thrown off. I'm like, what are
we talking about? And then like in that interview, you
actually see a click for me, me realizing that he's
referencing fat. And then I had to get it together
and realized that I had to educate this person because
fatness should not be a bad word. There should not
(09:07):
be stigma against a descriptor. And my brother and I
kind of mock at it through the book of like
these different chapters with different ways to describe fatness and
all these different adjectives. But my brother and I when
we started writing this book, we use the word fat intentionally, frequently,
kind of aggressively to be able to reclaim it, because
(09:27):
it is our word. It's one of many words, and
it's not like we can hide from fatness, like it's
here in front of us, it's here today, it's here
to stay likely And so I take it as my
responsibility to be able to reclaim that power and to
be able to identify as fat. I mean, gosh, for
so many years I tried to like not show my fatness,
(09:52):
as if it was something a T shirt could hide,
when in reality, it's like, yeah, that is part of me.
I'm a fat person. I'm also a fat and healthy person.
I'm also a fat and brilliant person. I'm also a
fat and kind person. And these are I'm fat and
beautiful and a lot of times when you're fat, you
don't get to be those things. At least that's what
the word, or the stigma behind the word, has taught us.
(10:14):
So with my patients, I have support groups, I have
individual therapy, and with them, I try to say like
own it. You know, it's okay. It doesn't mean that
you're failing. It doesn't mean that you're excluded from society.
It doesn't mean that you don't get to eat and
enjoy that cake, or eat and enjoy that pistachio or
those almonds. Like it's okay. And I really want to
(10:37):
encourage that and encourage myself again, I'm still writing that
story for myself, so it's it's work. I mean, it's
not going to happen overnight, but I'm definitely determined to
make it happen.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, they're reclaiming the word fat really seems akin to
the lgbt QI A two s plus reclaiming the word
queer or like. At first you hear those words, and
even reading the book, I was like, oh, they're using
that word a lot. I felt myself kind of internally
wincing even just reading the way you refer it. But
over time my reaction got less and less and less,
(11:12):
and I think and I was just thinking, that's the
whole point. That's exactly what you and your brother Ian
were trying to do with this. In your journey, We're
all about like shouting out people who have brought us
to where we are in the show. Who have your
biggest influences be? Who would you shout out right now?
Who have helped you along the way, understand yourself and
(11:35):
help you get here in your career too.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Definitely, my brother Ian and I hysterically did not talk
about our bodies or our fatness through it. It was
as if we were keeping the secret from one another,
even though we were both in the fatness side by
side at those tables with our grandparents in those fat
shaming moments, but we didn't want to talk about it.
(11:58):
But since then we've definitely grown a lot more comfortable
with it. My mother, who we references Saint Sue in
the book, has always, always, always encouraged me to assert myself,
and I think I mentioned a few pretty important stories
in our book where she really did encourage me to
fight and own my space and educate providers when they
(12:22):
weren't being fair towards my weight. My husband has been
like beyond accommodating of my career path and my pursuit.
I mean, I am one fierce woman professionally and personally,
and he loves that and he supports that and lifts
me up and never makes me feel bad about it,
(12:43):
never questions my strange ambitions. I'm going to write a book.
Howes that sound like I'm going to go get my doctorate?
Is that cool?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Like?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Can we move for like a year away from our life?
Can we uproot? Is that cool of you? So it's
been pretty remarkable to have such a supportive partner, and
I'm super stoked now to have a child to try
and implement everything that I've learned and understand and learn
from what I did and what my experience was, and
try to provide her with a different reality where she
(13:12):
can't use the word fat, where she can be proud
of her body and her personality and herself without feeling
shameful the way that I did. So I think those
are probably the top runners that I would name. Yeah,
I love.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It if you haven't read the book yet, or if
you're interested in reading the book. For any of the listeners,
it's kind of split up into two sections, right like
Ian is in the beginning and then you're the second
half of the book. But it was really interesting how
while you guys had your two separate halves, you guys
would kind of relate on similar topics or similar experiences,
And for me, there was a lot of like light
(13:44):
bulb moments of like damn, so that's not just me,
or like we're in this, like we're in the same boat,
Like that's that was really normalizing for me to read
that a bunch of times and not just like one
or two, but it felt like the whole book. So
I guess my question is going through that was the
process like writing this book with your brother, Like was
it like you go first, I go second, was it
(14:06):
let's go kind of at the same time? Like and
I know for year half there was a lot of
like references and like research and like a lot of
it was kind of like more like that academic side,
but also like really easy to understand and digest, which
I thought was really cool. But like, what was that process?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Like it was very messy. Yeah, we had a very
clear plan when we went into the book proposal, and
that probably changed a dozen times through writing it, just
because you know, it's the human experience that we were describing,
and we all know how clean that isn't you know.
(14:42):
It's such a unique thing and kind of a hot
topic but also really taboo, and so they wanted us
to be relatable, and my brother's great at that. I'm
great at that, but very differently. He's an entertainer. He
knows how to read the room and entertain to it,
and I'm good at one on one and advocacy. So
(15:03):
we tried to take our specialties and put it into
an organized piece. And I also sometimes recommend people read
his chapter followed by my version of the chapter, if
that makes sense. It makes a little bit more. There's
a little bit more like linearity to it. There's more
connection because I kind of referenced him as like a
(15:24):
case study, if you will, and I appreciate what you say.
There's definitely heavy research in my section, very dissertation like,
because there is a lot of research, and it was
really hard to try to be doctor Alisa Carmel but
also Alisa and I really wanted to make sure my
voice came through while also providing something for people to
lean on to be like, oh, this is why that
(15:46):
is being said, or this is why I feel that way.
This research says so. And it was difficult to do so,
but I think that with the right support and the
right editing, we got to a place that felt really good.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
In a world where it feels scary to yourself first
and take care of yourself, and like something like going
to the doctor because of negative experiences that I think
you guys both reference and having, and I relate it
to that so much. I just remember thinking growing up,
how many times I'd go to the doctor and they'd
basically just tell me the same thing and just leaving
feeling like so defeated as an eleven twelve year old
(16:19):
of like damn, this doctor just kind of shit on me,
and I'm a little kid, like this really sucks. And
I think both of you referenced it at one point
of just again, yeah, the importance of we are allowed
to take care of ourselves. And I think maybe even
Ian specifically said, like go to the doctor, like you
go to the doctor. It's important, and I will say
I think so. I just checked my good Reads. I
(16:39):
finished the book on September eighth, and I think with
a lot of thinking and a lot of processing of
just like after that book, I did recently go to
the doctor after a few years of not going just
because of like fear and like worry. So I appreciate
that a lot, and I think the book will please
do it really did push me in that direction. It
had been a few years since I'd gone, and just
(17:01):
like wrestling back and forth of like the doctor and like, shit,
what are they gonna tell me? What are they gonna
what are they gonna shoot on me for this time?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
And was it as bad as you thought it would be?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
No, it wasn't, And I'm glad. I went and shout
out doctor, doctor Hayes. He's a resident and we had
a good conversation and it went really well and it
was cool. He was super, super nice. We just had
a good, good talk, good plan of you know, continuing
on on some good lifestyle changes and that we could
agree on. And yeah, this is the part that I
really wanted to share, and I didn't write it in
(17:31):
the notes because I figured it would come up. But yeah,
for anyone listening, you know it's in the book. We'll
tell you too. For a miliariy mental health channel, go
take care of yourselves. It's okay to go to the doctor,
and you deserve that.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
And I want to add to that point too, where
you know, as a clinical child and adolescent psychiatrist, I
have a decent amount of people that come in and say, oh,
we were seeing a different provider, but all they ever
focused on was the wait. And I'm a mental health
capacity and still people well that's all they focus on.
And sometimes it's our medicines that's increasing the weight in
(18:05):
these young people too. And my favorite chapter of Yours, Eliza,
is when you talk about how you met a new
doctor had explained all of your research and how you
were trying to decrease the stigma around fatness. You're trying
to change the way providers and doctors talk to their patients.
And he's still fat shamed you in the appointment And
(18:30):
I just like reading this book. My job dropped. And
I know this is a cheesy question. What were your
feelings and emotions in the moment.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Oh my gosh, I'm getting heated, just like hearing you
talk about it. I was, you know, I I I
was fat shamed again, which silenced me, which I It's
so funny. My dog recently got fat shamed. We went
to the veterinarian and he had a yeast Infectioniziar and
(19:02):
the dog or the dog the veterinarian went straight to
thinking that he had a weight problem. Was and I
went off on the veterinarian just complete like sympathetic nervous
system overload, just like what is wrong, you know? And
the veterinarian is like, well, how else would you like
me to talk about it? And I couldn't even come
up with an alternative. In the moment, I was so
(19:23):
angry and riled up and hurt and disappointed and surprised
and all of these emotions at the same time. My
husband asked me to leave. I did, and then I
was pacing and trying to think, like this happened again.
I'm having the same emotions provoked that happened in that
appointment for my dog, who probably doesn't know what we're
(19:44):
talking about, but I do. And I still can't speak
up in this moment. I have all this education, this
is what I do for a living, and I can't
speak up. And I think that's what irritates me the
most out of that is that despite all of that,
I can't speak up. I feel sa island. And what
about the people who don't have the education? M Yeah,
(20:06):
what about the people who don't have that advocacy personality
or don't have that desire to change the white central culture?
What about those folks? Do they just receive it? And yeah, Okay,
that's true, I am fat or what have you. And
so I guess that's what happens to me, is I
get in this rumination just like a distraught of like,
this is a problem, this is this is a huge problem,
(20:28):
and how do we fix that? How do we change
these narratives that these agendas that come at innocent folks
who are trying to just go to take care of
their health. And I think that's a really hard question
to answer, but I'm trying to work on it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Just you guys book this conversation. My hope is that
we can kind of move in that direction. And I
think the hard part is then we can get into
the conversation of like why does it need to fall
on us to like try to make that change and
not other people to try to help us on that.
But I I again, I think personally, the book really
impactful for me. So I appreciate that a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
You know, I've noticed that teaching might be a necessary
angle too, So I've started a course at the local
Natural Medicine university and hopefully I can get in that
way and just help people learn maybe different ways to communicate. Right,
I think communication can be a really easy route.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Because it feels like in our society we pride ourselves
on how forward thinking we are, how progressive we are.
I mean maybe about half the country, but there are
these different groups of people that have their moments, and
we're getting better. Although we have progress on trans people,
on gay rights, on people of color, but it still
(21:44):
feels like fat people there's open season, like people can
say whatever they want, they can be bullied still for
being fat. It seems like for some reason, that's the
one that's still kind of stuck in the past. So
I love that you're having this conversation because it doesn't
feel like it's been had yet or it had nearly enough.
(22:06):
And to build on that. The way we talk to
young people about their weight is so important. And I
know you guys have like listed in the book specifics
for how to speak to young people about their weight.
But I'm curious that what are your favorites, what do
you feel like have been the most impactful, the most
useful in your life?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Well, first of all, how do we bring weight into
the conversation? You know, Like I for me, I'll due
respect to my family, it was brought in as year
overweight and I was like, well, what's the other Like,
what are my options here? And I had never been
talked to about weight until I was told that I
was doing it wrong. So then what angle do you
(22:49):
go from there? You know, if a child is introduced
to a topic as no, that's wrong, then then how
do they even understand the topic? So it shouldn't be
a weapon. It shouldn't be It shouldn't be a way
to make kids feel awful, because there's enough things that
make children feel badly. And it should be a safe
(23:11):
conversation and it should be a conversation that starts not
from an angle of judgment, expectation, and fear or stigmatizing
the word fat. Also, it should be brought up just
as other concepts are brought up. Let's talk about the
weather and how we check temperatures on that. Let's bring
up weight and how we check a temperature on that. Like,
(23:33):
there's a lot of different ways that you can bring
it into a conversation with a child that isn't accusational,
that isn't judgmental, and isn't designed to make them feel
like they need to diet, you know, and it's I
get a lot of parents who are how do I
get my kids to eat healthy. It's like it's the
same concept. Like my child won't eat anything but cheese
right now. That's the only thing she'll eat no matter what. Okay,
(24:00):
so what do I do, Like do I get hung
up on that? And no, no, no, And here's broccoli,
Like that's not going to work, you know. So coming
at it from an angle of curiosity compassion and connecting
them with her body, I think is really big. I mean,
I didn't really know my body besides it was bad
and that it was overweight, and those were the qualities
(24:23):
I knew. So teaching them, you know, all the parts
of your body. There's a great book that I was
reading to my daughter that I'm going to read to
her every day of her life if I can. I
Love all of me and it goes into like every
part of your body and how to be different in
all the ways. And I think that's gorgeous, Like we
need to have that. I didn't have that. So you
(24:43):
know what advice do I have for adults talking to
kids about weight? Don't wait till it's a problem and
talk to them about it neutraally, because it's just another
metric and they should.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Know that, Yeah, my little one loves cheese. Some reason,
it's very palatable for the toddler. It must be he's
learning where it's like crazy, but he will just go cheese.
Cheese just loves it. Every nearly wants a little bit
(25:17):
of cheese. O.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Man, it's so hard. We just stayed with my mother
for a month. Our kitchen was getting renovated, and she
just I'd come out and there'd be like four different
kinds of cheeses on her plate and I'd be like, ma,
what are you doing. She'd be like, she wanted a
piece of I'm like, you were so nanning her so
hard right now, I can't. She's like, stay away, go
(25:39):
back to your sessions.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I was like, oh, grandparents are the biggest enablers.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
It's wild. You know. One chapter that I had to
go back and relook at because it's the one that
I kept thinking of was yours. That was the aspirations
can hinder inspiration, and it I think it stood out
a lot because as I was reading, I was like, damn,
there's definitely some clothes in my closet that I like
(26:05):
hang on to of like maybe one day again. But
just by the end of it, just the way you
were able to talk about just how like, as we
get older, our bodies change, we don't have to get
back to that, like we may never get back to
that certain type of body, and like just how much
basically like the basic thing of like how much these
like maybe potentially unattainable goals can just ultimately hold this back.
(26:30):
And I thought the way you talked about it was
so cool and so helpful for me. And again I
was like, damn, I know exactly what clothes I'm kind
of hanging on to, And it really made me think.
And again I think it really contributed to kind of
decisions going forward that were helpful for me because of
reading it. But I just wonder what thoughts you have
about like the psychology around clothes and getting dressed. You
(26:54):
touched on it a little bit in the chapter, But
what what do you think would be good for our
listeners to hear.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
We can sometimes the most cruel to ourselves. So many
of my patients when they start working with me, they
have some outfit that they really you know, miss or
that the brides I need to get into this wedding dress,
or I you know, there's this wedding dress that I
really want to buy, or the postpart of moms who
(27:22):
you know, they had a body and then they had
a baby and now they have this body, or the
folks who have gone through a weight loss surgery and
the results weren't what they wanted them to be, or
they've been on a weight loss journey and they just
can't seem to get to that high school whatever weight
that they keep referencing as their happy times, right, they
(27:43):
connect weight to a memory of a mood when I
was skinny. He loved me when I was skinny, things
were easier. And then they connect that to their clothing, right,
like there's an outfit I want to wear, and it's
as if this outfit is the ticket to their happiness.
And it turns out that's not true. It turns out
(28:05):
that there's so many other variables that contribute to our happiness.
It just seems that closes like the token, the ticket,
if you will, to that happiness. And so I don't
know about you guys, but I have a couple bins
in my mudroom. Some of them are these sizes when
I was this side, when I was this sage and
doing this diet, and some of them were from my
(28:26):
fatter days. And this is you probably don't have a
maternity box, but I have a maternity box, and I,
you know, I have a lot of different boxes of
clothing and I'm hanging on to them. Why. I don't know.
I don't know if it's hope. I don't know if
it's disappointment. I don't know if it's you know, some
sort of some reasoning that I haven't really explored yet.
(28:49):
But I think many of us have some version of that,
and I think unpacking that, both literally and figuratively, could
be really helpful for folks. And a lot of times
people say, if I could just fit into whatever clothing
it is, things would be different. And maybe, but as
I try to say in the book, that change doesn't
necessarily guarantee the outcome that you think. And sometimes we
(29:13):
can get to that outcome in a different way, but
maybe not, maybe never. And what would that mean to you?
Are you defeated now? Or is there a different way
you can look at yourself? Is there a different way
you can interact with your body and your wardrobe in
a way that makes you actually feel worthy? So I
think it's complicated, and I think the conversations need to
(29:34):
be had, and a lot of folks aren't having them.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I think that's just so helpful to hear from you,
that part when you're saying, like, you know, why do
I have these clothes and that I don't know them. Damn,
I feel you on that. I think I've had that
conversation with myself. And yeah, again, that chapter just stood
out so much to me, and I appreciate it, and
I appreciate the way you wrote about it.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
If someone is thinking about making a change or trying
to be more open and accepting of who they are,
what their body looks like, what would you recommend as
first steps to people in this journey?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
What's motivating your desire to make that change? I mean truly,
like there's the surface answer which I get at the
intake usually, which is that my doctor told me I
have high blood pressure, or I have significant pain, or
I need to a knee replacement and I can't until
I get to this weight, or I have an event
(30:34):
that somebody who will judge me will see me and
if I look one way, then they'll be kinder or
not right. But then when we get underneath that, I
like to unpack people's weight stories and when weight even
became relevant to them, when they found out that who
they were wasn't okay, what they looked like wasn't okay.
Who told that to them? Was it a caregiver? Was
(30:56):
it an important relationship? Intimate relationship? And I know that
you asked kind of a very pointed question of what
is the first step, But I think the first step
has a lot of mini steps of identifying what the
roots of all of this is and are those roots
something they're willing to uncover, like are they willing to
do that work? And some people aren't, some people aren't.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
One of my favorite parts, and you mentioned this earlier
of the book, was that in between chapters, you guys
discuss the different names that are often associated with people
who are overweight, Like for me, growing up, I was
called husky And that was a part of the book
where we talk about the word husky and using it
(31:39):
for and I just that hit so hard. You already
mentioned that you were told that you were overweight when
you were young, But what are the words that you
remember that described you when you were a kid that's
still that still are there that you still feel.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So that's a good question. I was nailed with fat,
but it wasn't. It was from this question came up
in an earlier interview. But the first time I realized
I was fat and that it was bad was when
I was a cheerleader doing junior cheer for a football
(32:15):
team and one of the football players called me fat
in front of the entire football team my cheer squad,
and I was startled. I was shook, I was completely
My purity just left the building. I was like, oh,
this is not okay. And then all of a sudden,
(32:35):
everybody became judgment to me. So fatness was weaponized to
me young, so whenever somebody called me fat, I felt
that I was being attacked. And I think that's why
it's so important to me now to help reclaim that word.
I remember when like Abercrombie and Fitch and Hollister came
out with their clothing and I tried so desperately to
fit into them, and they didn't offer sizes that fit
(32:57):
my body. And then Mervin's and Target and nord Strum
started coming up with plus size, and then I was like, oh,
maybe I can fit into that, and so I thought
plus size was hope, but then also that was weaponized.
So I think those were the two descriptors that were
part of my awareness and the ones that I use.
But again I tried to hide from both of them,
(33:18):
and I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Mervins is a throwback.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I'n't heard that a while.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We grew up in I almost feel like I go
back to my like I can think of the Mervins
that we went to, you know, where I grew up
in the Bay Area, and like I think they if
you think of like the first time, I'm trying to
remember that, like I no longer wore like the kids size.
I had to just go to like a smaller adult size,
(33:49):
and just like that was that was significant and I
think coupled with some negative doctor's appointments for for years
at the same you know, years and years, that was
pretty tough. I think I think of how much, like thankfully,
and I know Ian talked about it too, but just
like playing football, I think was really helpful because it
was one of those things where it was like I
(34:11):
was rewarded for being bigger essentially, and I was totally
awarded for that, and that was like kind of the
only time that that happened. So like from you know,
it was seventh grade when I started playing whatever through
when I finished in college, like that time was like
Eddie big good, like that's a good thing. But then
after that, no more good, like not a good thing,
(34:32):
and I think, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I would.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
I mean that's why I entered rugby. And I remember
having a conversation with my brother in a pool wearing
T shirts at some point in our youth where I
was feeling so fat and so rejected, and he's like,
screw cheerleading, like go to the field, you have it,
use it. So I joined the rugby team and it
was the first time my body felt like it was
(34:57):
acceptable and encouraged and like appreciate. So I feel you
on that like football good?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Okay, yes, the hard part was only being five eight
in a defensive lineman, like the football dream was ending
at some point, like it was never and I knew
that after I was like a sophomore like I'm not
getting any taller. This is this is gonna be over soonish.
So that's funny enough.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I ended it for you. I couldn't keep up with
the drinking that was required.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I've heard.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
There's might be people party.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I could not keep up. I couldn't What is it
about that? Sports just a track like out of the
Fleet to.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
That's where not into it. No, I got all my
questions and my my thoughts shared and answered. We appreciate
you so much coming on and letting us interview you,
and uh, I think it's really cool that we got
to read your book and we got to talk to
super Ready.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Thanks for reading the book.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
We're fanboying a little bit over being able to get
pid you because honestly, it's it was one of the
best books I've read in recent memory, because it was
it was just so real and Ian's hilarious, and you've
got so much perspective because we haven't mentioned it yet,
but Ian used to be a writer on The Late
(36:23):
Late Show with James Gordon, so and he's done a
lot of stand up comedy and so it's just it
has everything. You guys are a great one two punch.
You guys are very different from each other, but it
adds such a depth to the book that it was
a joy to read.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Truly, thank you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
It was it was a dream to write it. I mean,
it was really cool to write next to my brother,
to do something together. It's something that we have so
much passion about, and it means a lot to me
that you guys took something from it. I mean it
was really like our heart's run our sleep in this book.
So the fact that it meant something, that it landed,
and that hired you guys to even reach out to
(37:01):
me about it, I mean, it's just a really honor
to be able to talk with you guys about this.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
We appreciate you being here. I remember when Ian tweeted
about it. I did the pre order on Amazon, So yeah,
it's kind of it feels kind of full socalish to
be to do that and to be here with you
for our listeners. Where can they find you online? Social media?
What would be helpful if anybody maybe in the area
wants to reach out to you. Where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I'm on Instagram. Doctor Elisa Carmel is my handle, and
I have a website also, doctor earlysacarmel dot com. Yeah,
and I'm an organ so I can do coaching throughout
the country, throughout the world, really, and I work at
a clinic here in Oregon, Psychological Services Connection, great little place,
and I provide virtual support. So I'm your girl.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I got you cool, and I might even be sending
some people your way. So if you ever see like
who and Wyoming is trying to get out home, that's me.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
That's my patience.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Okay, I thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well. To our listeners. To doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you
all for being here. Well, we'll play it out real
quick and we'll wrap it up like we usually do
for those listening. You know the deal Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
Feel free to leave us a review. You can leave
us a comment that we'll read later on social media
at Millennial MHC and at our website Millennial MC dot com.
(38:29):
Thank you again to doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you all
for listening. Thank you all for just being here, and
remember to take care of y'all mentals
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