January 16, 2025 • 39 mins
Does it feel like people are more socially anxious than ever? Because the data backs it up. In this episode Eddie and Justin break down social anxiety with the stats, the papers, the treatments, and their own clinical experience. You may be surprised which celebrities have it, and even more surprised by how much the guys love Marshawn Lynch.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We always hate when older generations kind of crap on
the younger generations because who made them that way?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Who raised them? Who are the parents?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano,
a child adolescent psychiatry fellow.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And I'm Adi Koreo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
is here because we wanted to start a much nearer
conversation about mental health.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our goal is to teach you as much as we
can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
you enjoy today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia me I Hearmer. Hello,
and welcome back to MMHC. We had a long break
for the holidays, so it's nice to be back. We
feel refreshed, We're ready to do some learning. Today we're
talking about social anxiety, Eddie. What gives you social anxiety?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You know the other day, I gave a professional development
training with two of my coworkers and one of them,
who's a school counselor who's been doing it for a
long time, told everybody in the room, like, isn't it
funny that I'm giving a presentation on anxiety and I'm
feeling extremely anxious. I don't know, I told you before this,
(01:29):
but I went back to a new semester of teaching
for me, so outside of working at the high school,
I'm teaching at Pacific and I definitely was like I
could feel my heart racing a little bit, I was
feeling little nervous, got a little sweaty.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I guess to bring it back to the question and
maybe give like a general answer. Maybe things where I
am worried that I'll say something wrong. Maybe performances. I
don't know, but I do I enjoyed like that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I don't know, I don't know. Gotcha, what do you
got anything that gives you anxiety, that makes you nervous?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What are we thinking? You know?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
When I was younger, crowds didn't like being in crowds
in like crowded places. It makes my shoulders really tight,
makes me just like, but it's gotten better as i've
pushed myself to do it, and the more concerts I've
gone to and everything, it just makes it a lot easier,
which is the concept of exposure therapy. Like if something
makes you anxious, do it a lot and it gets better.
(02:34):
So it's gotten better with time. But yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Just my mom would tell you too, Like when I
was growing up, if there was like a crowded place
or something.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I was just not into it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
You know what I'll say now that you that we
think about it. Anytime where I don't know like how
something's going to play out, definitely, yeah, ixious, I'll start to,
like all the thoughts pop into my head and I
just jump from one to another.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
All the different possible outcomes. But it seems like from
a professional standpoint as a psychiatrist, you as a therapist, counselor,
I know I'm seeing a lot of kids with social
anxiety and it's happening all the time, especially because I
do an assessment called a Scared Child Assessment that rates
all of your different types of anxiety generalized anxiety, social anxiety,
(03:20):
separation anxiety, and almost all of my teenagers screen positive
for social anxiety. It's almost the rule as opposed to
the exception that everyone's got some social anxiety going on.
So I was curious. As a young psychiatrist'm always thinking like,
is this new? Has always been this way? Because it
feels like it's new, it feels like it's something that's
on the rise. So we wanted to do an episode
(03:42):
on it and see what we think. So what we
find out, I think.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
What's hard anytime you start to see I guess this
would just be my assumption, but anytime you start to
see trends where things become more prevalent or feel like
they're more prevalent, Because I think if you and I,
in our separate roles in separate states, are kind of
experiencing a similar thing where there's an increase and stuff.
One of my concerns ends up being like, well, if
a lot of people have this, like, how many people
(04:05):
are going to kind of like try to downplay it.
I see a lot where people will be like, well,
if everybody has anxiety, then nobody has anxiety, or like,
you know, a little bit of anxiety is good. Yes, correct,
that's fine. A little bit of anxiety is good. But
I think for a lot of our kids and teens
our gen zers, our gen alphas, they're experiencing at a
way that they it just impacts their well being and
(04:27):
their day to day. So it is I don't know, Yeah,
we'll talk about it today, but it is something that
I feel like I see a lot too. Just our
kids are struggling. They're having a whole being kids, interacting,
doing the typical things in the classroom you'd expect, it
is hard for them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
As a general rule, on MMHC, we say like, if
something's getting in the way of your life, it's worth
looking into and trying to get help because we don't
want these things to get in the way of your life,
so you can live your happiest.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Life for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So some stats in Facts on Social Anxiety is that
it is relatively common, with about two hundred thousand new
cases per year in the United States. It was initially
described in the nineteen sixties, but still over half of
people with it never seek any sort of treatment.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Another source, the Seattle Anxiety Specialist, say that about fifteen
million people in total in the US have been diagnosed,
so this is about seven percent of the population. It's
also important to consider that there are probably a lot
of people not getting diagnosed or not getting treated. I
remember one time getting asked this question of like, okay,
if this is where the rates of mental health or
(05:34):
mental illness is, what is the number?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Actually?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Is that like a good reflection of it? Is it more?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Would it be less if people were actually seeing practition?
And it made me think like this whole like chicken
before the egg thing that blew my mind for a
little bit, and then I just had to stop thinking
about it. And now that I bring it up again,
I'm like, I need to like blink a couple of.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Times, reboot your brain a little.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, Oh, let's pousit real quick.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
To the average age of onset for social anxiety is
about thirteen years old. That's when people really start to
feel this the most. It's also sometimes called social phobia
to give you like another name, an older name. And
we just hear young people say all the time, I
just feel like everyone's looking at me, they're judging me
all the time. I mean, that's something I hear almost
(06:24):
every day from my patients. They're just always afraid that
they're being judged in social situations at school and the
lunch room and assemblies and everything. They just feel like
they're just everyone's eyes are on them and they're being
judged constantly.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You know what's so interesting about that is that fear
of like being spotlighted or being watched, is that this
might be one of the times where we are least
watched by other people in human history. Everybody else is
way into their phone, way into the music and their headphones.
They are not paying attention to the world around them,
(06:58):
and yet a lot of kids feel like they just
have eyes on them twenty four to seven. Here's the
thing that I wish we could really get across to
a lot of teens is as much as you feel
like you're being watched, you're being spotlighted. They're the kids
around you that feel the exact same way, and their
eyes are down on purpose. They're walking through the halls,
(07:18):
pretending to be on their phone. They're walking through the
halls head down, got their hood on. I feel like
we're being watched the least among our peers, probably in
any other generation. But it feels like the eyes are
on us all the.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Time, totally. That's a great point, and sometimes it's important
to tell yourself that in the moment that I might
be feeling this way, but is that the reality of
the situation. Does anyone really care? Is anyone really looking
at me? Am I really being judged? Or One thing
I try and tell my young patience is if you
see someone out in public, like are you saying are
(07:52):
you judging them in your mind? Are you saying terrible
things in your mind? And most of them say no,
you know yea and so like, well then why would
they do that too? You back? So trying to help
reframe those thoughts so that they're they're not so pervasive,
they're not so terrible.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
A big thing to remember, just with with most mental
health disorders is that in order to meet the diagnosis criteria,
it has to be getting in the way of your
daily life. I think the way they put it as
like one of the final criteria for most mental health
disorders is like impairment and daily function. Maybe that's just
the way that I have it in my head. It
makes it a little easier to remember, but yeah, it
has to impair your day to day life. And then
(08:29):
another stat and fact is that females are more likely
to complain of social anxiety than males, while men are
actually more likely to have social anxiety around issues like dating.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So interesting tidbits, little fun for you, quick story time.
Been a while since we've done a story time. Yeah,
But during the pandemic especially, I had a lot of
patients who were just constantly trying to hide and hide
in their own lives.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So the type of.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Patient that they would grow their hair out long, it
would rape it over their eyes, so you never knew
where they were looking. They would hide behind their mask
and never take it off. They would speak incredibly quiet.
They would do anything they could to not be noticed,
not be called upon in class, not be singled out
or spotlighted in any sort of way. It feels like
(09:19):
this has gotten so much better since the pandemic, and
I wonder how much if it was having to switch
to online schools. But it just seemed like so many
young people were just hiding so much, just didn't want
to be seen whatsoever. And I'm curious we don't have
any solid answers as to why. I didn't even have
any solid answers as to if other people were seeing
(09:41):
this a big trend like I was, but just interesting
and something I wanted to bring up that it was
a time where where young people just did not want
to be seen.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
For my story time. It's about books. I'm really thinking
about it. As I talked to Justin before this, I've
done a lot of reading on anxiety and social anxiety
like this school year, and I guess I didn't really
realize it until ten minutes ago. So right now I'm
reading this book called The Anxious Generation by John Hate.
(10:12):
I think that's how you pronounced the last name. It's
been pretty popular. I believe it came out in July
of twenty twenty four. I mean it's so popular, in
fact that when I checked it out from my local library,
remember support your local library. When I checked it out
from the library, it had just gotten returned the day before,
and it was in the no holds, no renewal section
and you only had fourteen days to read it as
(10:34):
opposed to the twenty one days that you normally get
with a book. So it's pretty popular. I tried to
put a hold on it for the Libby app, and
that's got a long ass weight list. So anyway, I
have it in my possession. I'm trying to finish it
this week because I don't have a choice. I have
to return it. But he's a social psychologist. He brings
up a lot of really interesting points in terms of
(10:56):
why he thinks that our gen Z or Gen Alpha,
and maybe even maybe even a little bit of the
millennials are so anxious today. He mentions things like having
less of a play based childhood. He mentioned things like
potentially overprotectiveness from parents, and then he brings up, like
you would expect, social media and internet use. What I
do like about his perspective is he's not just leaning
(11:18):
into only social media and internet use. I think that's
an easy thing for us to lean into. But he
does bring up some other factors like the play based
childhood and the parental potentially over protectiveness. So I won't
spoil it for you. There's a big twist at the end.
Just kidding, there's not because it's a it's an informational book,
but if you are a clinician, you're working a school,
(11:40):
you're just interested in learning a little more. I do
also really recommend a book. I'm not done with it.
I would love to finish it by the time the
school year ends. Just hard in between stuff with work.
But I'm currently reading some book slash manual. It's called
Helping Students Overcome social anxiety. Then the subtext is Skills
for Academic and social success.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That book has been.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Really interesting too, because it's really pointed out a lot
of things related to what are some signs of social
anxiety that we don't typically expect. Things like walking the
hall's eyes glued to your cell phone because you don't
want to be seen or seeing other people. Things like
not wanting to be called on in class so you
have to go use the bathroom and then you never
come back. Things like I'm already late to school. I'm
(12:23):
just not going to go because people are going to
see me walk into the classroom. One thing that's really
stood out to me maybe a couple of things. Actually
I could ramble about this all day, I think, but
couple things that have stood out is the authors talk
about how social anxiety is often mistaken for shyness. Might
not seem like a huge issue, but the issue then
comes from people just assume you'll grow out of it,
(12:46):
and when you don't grow out of it, then they
just start to assume that you're just not taking things seriously,
you're not trying to get better, So that really impacts
a lot of kids. The other thing that really opened
my eyes, a lot of kids who are socially anxious,
let's say around the thirteen years old and on, they
tend to have when they do have a friend group,
they tend to have a very small, strong connection to
(13:08):
those friends. So one, if they lose any of those friends,
it's a big deal to them because it really is
kind of like the end of such an important relationship.
Number Two, they have a really hard time making other friends.
So if they go somewhere like a new school, like
they move to college, and they have a hard time
connecting with others, it's potentially the social anxiety that's really
(13:29):
getting in a way. So anyway, if you're interested in
learning any more about anxiety, social anxiety, just the where
our kids are today, where they might be headed, just
some interesting information, I definitely recommend those two books.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Cool and another reason why we wanted to talk about
this because Eddie's just been prolifically.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Reading all of this. Now that I say it, it's like,
holy shit, this might be too much.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I need to cal them down, put some great points there.
And you know, it could certainly even be a combination
of a couple of different factors. And yeah, we'll kind
of dive more into that. In terms of actual diagnostic criteria,
this is what social anxiety disorder is. It is a
(14:14):
persistent and intense fear of social situations because you believe
you may be judged negatively, embarrassed, or humiliated.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Avoidance of anxiety producing social situations or enduring them with
intense fear or anxiety.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Excessive anxiety that's out of proportion to the.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Situation, anxiety or distress that interferes with your daily living, fear.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Or anxiety that is not better explained via a medical condition, medications,
or substance use. Like if you're slamming a bunch of
coffee every day and that makes you really feel anxious,
and that's what's causing your anxiety, it's not technically social anxiety.
Or if you've got a rip roller in tuma that's
releasing like a bunch of you know, catcholamines or something
(14:57):
like that, then that wouldn't be social anxiety either.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Did I ever tell you about it?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
I feel like I mentioned this to ever tell you
about the In my psychopathology class back in grad school,
how our professor wrote us this whole like case conceptualization
of like this is a vignette and I want you
to tell me what diagnosis you think this is. And
he made it so much to the point where everybody thought,
it's like, oh, it's got to be like bipolar. They
got to be having mania or something, and the answer
(15:23):
was like caffeine induced something or other.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And we're like, are you kidding? That was cheating.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I love the idea of like making a question like
that and just having an answer that's totally out of
the blue.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It worked because you remember, yeah, well, yeah, shit, you're right.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But a lot of people were like, I think he
wrote this case conceptualization about himself, that man's always bouncing
off the walls.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
He was just trying to feel better about. Maybe some
data and studies that we wanted to talk about on
this episode are There was a study from Jeffries and
Younger twenty twenty. It was a self report survey from
multiple countries Brazil, Estonia, Russia, Thailand, US, and Vietnam. On average,
(16:14):
thirty six percent of participants aged sixteen to twenty nine
met the threshold for social anxiety disorder. The US actually
had the highest rate of social anxiety disorder at nearly
fifty eight percent, and then surprisingly Indonesia had the lowest
at twenty two point nine percent.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I feel like I'm not surprised by the US having
the highest.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, you know, we would do it better than anyone.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Baby one on.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
In the study, ninety percent of new cases of social
anxiety reported to have occurred by the time the individual
reached twenty three years old, So it was indicating that
younger people are the ones that are feeling the most
social anxiety, and that kind of coincides with our thoughts
and what we've kind of read like from the literature
that it tends to be a generational thing, and not
necessarily a generational divide, but a generational thing that is
(17:08):
more impacting the generations below us in terms of age.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So why is social anxiety disorder on the rise? Short answer,
we don't know for sure. It's probably the phones, or
at least it's contributing heavily to it. One of the
hypothesis hypotheses that we were reading about is that social
media is causing the rise. There's so much judgment on
(17:34):
social media, so much comparison of your life. There's a
lot of different hypotheses, and it's probably probably going to
end up being a combination of all of them or
some of them. There's also a hypothesis that because so
many of our interactions are becoming virtual these days, that
in person interactions are becoming more awkward and anxiety provoking
because people are losing those skills to interact in person
(17:59):
and navigate throughfficult or awkward social situations.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
You know, I have a really hard time with that idea,
not because I think it's wrong, but only because I
feel like it just gets reinforced for a lot of
like older people, from like an older generation of like
these kids don't know how to talk to each other anymore.
It's like they might have never been taught, they might
have not needed to, and maybe we did a shit
(18:23):
job of teaching them, right you think of COVID too.
I think we've talked about it, either on the show
or separately. Like when I got to work in the
school the very first year that our school opened full
time with kids back, we were wearing masks and stuff.
But when we got back to school, like a lot
of these kids had not been in school for a
year and a half, so our ninth graders may have
(18:45):
still been feeling like seventh graders. They didn't know how
to interact with high schoolers. So not only did you
have ninth graders who were still kind of seventh graders,
you had sophomores who were still kind of eighth graders.
So you kind of had a mix of middle schoolers
and high schoolers trying to interact with each other and couldn't.
They had a really hard time.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We always hate when older generations kind of crap on
the younger generations because who made them that way, who raised.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Them, who were the parents?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
It's you. You gotta look at the mirror, baby. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Well, there was an interesting study. When I was reading
over the notes, this was a it made me think
a little bit. But there was a study from Fischler
at All in twenty twenty one that speculated that stressors
and anxiety are changing on our society as a whole.
So things like we're less worried about where our food
is coming from, access to clean water, in our safety.
We're emphasizing more material goods, money, and social social appearance,
(19:41):
and this shift could be causing people to fear more
social anxiety, to feel more insecure about themselves. I've talked
about when I give classroom presentations about social media and
internet use, there's a lot of like fomo fear of
missing out. There's a lot of like feeling like we
need to wear these certain things because they're trendy.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
We see teens all the time that I have to
wear these because everyone's wearing them. I have to get
these clothes, I have to do these things. And maybe
it's more, maybe it's more pervasive than it was even
when you and I were teenagers.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I feel like when we were growing up, it was
cool to do your own thing, Like, you know, obviously
there's some cool brands and things that people wanted to do,
but it was also cool to just kind of do
your own thing. And it feels like, I don't know,
maybe that's changing a little bit for the younger generation too.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I think there's this like really popular tweet from like
a long time ago from Tyler the creator, who is
like he said something like, what do you mean you're
being cyberbullied? Like just close the turn off the computer, right,
And it's like, hah, that's pretty funny. Like when we
were younger, it's like, yeah, I just don't log onto
white Space or Facebook. But now I feel like it's
so intertwined in to everybody's life that you can't really
(20:49):
log off right, Like a lot of kids are using
Snapchat to text each other, a lot of kids are
communicating through Instagram and whatever other social media TikTok, and
it's hard to sh that off because then you feel
like you're not connected to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Plus, you know, I didn't really necessarily read about but
one of my potential hypotheses for a lot of this
stuff is that in the past, people used to have downtime.
You know, people used to have time where they did nothing,
or they read a book, they did something that was calming.
But too much dopamine and too much activation from social
media from all this stuff really ramps up your nervous
(21:25):
system as well. So in the past, you know, if
you sat on a bus, you sat there doing nothing,
you calm down, you wound down. But now you're constantly
doing something and most of us are on our phone
for four to five hours of day, which ramps you
up even more and could be potentially making our nervous
systems more reactive. So I don't have any data or
(21:45):
evidence or studies to back that up, but just kind
of throwing out more different theories as to what's going on?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, now, people on the toilet watching TikTok and.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Videos and whatever.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Back in the day, we're reading the back of the
shampoo bottle.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Whatever you had to do, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, I don't know. I guess we joke about it.
But the more we say these things, I feel like,
the more it makes me feel like, can we really
put the blame on kids? No, they're doing the best
they can with what they got. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
If anything, we should be, you know, blaming the adults,
the people who raise them, maybe the tech companies for
giving almost every young person in this country in addiction.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I know you're on that one. I'm with you, Yeah,
I know.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So what do we do about this? What are some
treatments for social anxiety? So, as with most types of anxiety,
it's typically recommended to start with therapy. That's always a
good place to start with a lot of these things.
Medication can also be somewhat helpful. But I was just
at the big ACAP conference American Academy Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists,
(22:53):
and actually one of the teaching points was that social
anxiety is the type of anxiety that's least likely to
respond to medicine. So that's where I mean, it can
help a little bit, but therapy and learning how to
deal with, cope with, manage the social anxiety is really
going to be where you get the most bang for
your back.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I think a lot of kids kind of just have
to have that experience of like, Okay, I'm not gonna
die or it's not going to be the worst thing ever,
it's gonna be okay. How many times I have a
kid in my office who has a really hard time
talking to a teacher and then I tell them like, okay,
well let me email them first, or let's go talk
to them together, and then it ends up fine and
(23:33):
they're like, okay, yeah, I can talk to it.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
That makes a lot of sense to me. In terms
of therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
What do we have.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
We have exposure therapy, just jump right in. We do
see a lot of young people who are letting their
anxiety run their lives. Unfortunately, they're doing the best they can,
but this is just kind of how it ends up.
They feel anxious about being around people, so they use
that as an excuse to get out of school or
do homeschooling. I've seen this a lot over the last years.
(24:08):
You know, it's interesting that you mentioned this. Chronic absenteeism
is on the rise after COVID. That's been one of
our school goals over the last couple of years to
raise school attendance. I will say our school attendance is
actually probably higher than the national average. Do we really
need to focus on that, That's a question for someone else.
But chronic absenteeism is a big thing. There's a lot
(24:30):
of articles on it. There's a lot of schools that
kids are just not going to class. I have some
theories on this. We don't have to talk about it,
but I'll ramble for a little bit. This is my thought.
I think because of COVID, we got used to a
lot of things used to and we had to. It
was out of necessity. Things needed to be available online.
(24:52):
Classwork needed to be available online, lectures needed to be
available online. That didn't stop, and because that didn't stop,
a lot of kids started to see, oh I'm a junior,
I'm a senior. I drive to school. I don't really
need to be here if I have internet at the
house and I could just log on and get my
stuff done. So I think that's part of it. I
definitely think that the anxiety. I think the stressor of school.
(25:15):
I think all that combined is part of it. But
I think a big part of it is that we
did get stuck a little bit with the access to
stuff online, and because so many things are online, kids
really kids. I think kids are starting to see what
is the point of quoting to school. So that's my
two cents on it. I think other people have different opinions,
but that's what I got.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I think that makes sense that even happened in my
med school class. Yeah, Like these people were training to
be doctors, they were in their early twenties, but everything
was online. And there were people that I didn't see
the entire med school experience because they just didn't go
to anything. They're like, I can do this online, I'm
not coming in person.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, but I'm the.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Kind of person who needs to learn in person and
learn from a teacher. So I came anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, No, I am a dude.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, lots of kids are refusing to go back to school.
I've got so many patients and families and they're just
trying to navigate this. The kids are anxious, it's not
going well. They're not getting the help that they need,
and a lot of parents pull their kids out of school,
homeschool them, do different options that they have, and I always, always,
always recommend, and every case is different, and there could
(26:28):
be some cases where it's like, Okay, it's okay to
be homeschooled, let things calm down. But most of the time,
I say, try and keep them in school. If you
take them out, then it's going to make things worse
over time. They're never going to learn how to deal. Yeah,
it's just the start. It's going to get worse and
worse and worse. So as much as you can, if
you've got social anxiety, if it's getting into school, get
(26:48):
help for it, like talk to people, go to therapy,
talk to the counselors at school. But try and stay
in school because kids, it's cool to stay in school.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
That was bad. No, no, no, I like it. I mentioned
this on this show. I'm pretty sure I don't even
remember what show it was.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
It was about tying your shoes, you do the loop loop.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Beca there was a SpongeBob song.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Either way, I think we've.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Talked about when it comes to anxiety, the exposure part
is super important. I think that's that's really what's going
to help a lot with with getting better and understanding that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's because like when when.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Kids are experiencing anxiety, they're basically perceiving that there's a
dangerous situation in the absence of like the dangerous situation,
so they're like on edge, like something bad is about
to happen. They feel that they understand that in their brain,
but they aren't able to like make that connection that well,
nothing bad is going to happen until you can experience it, right.
(27:56):
So when it comes to exposure, we have a couple
types we have to The first one is systematic desensitization.
I knew I was going to trip over that, which
is basically slowly increasing exposure to the thing that makes
you anxious. So, for example, fear of snakes, maybe starting
with showing a picture of a snake, then moving to
(28:18):
a rubber snake, then eventually getting up to a real snake,
and knowing that you know, we're building up to this
point of like, okay, I've made it. The snake did
not kill me. We're okay.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And then there's flooding, which is like exposure therapy that's
really fast. You just dive right in and flood your
senses with what makes you anxious, Like, for example, you
got a fear of snakes, and then you jump straight
into being on an episode of fear Factor. We have
to sit in a tub of live snakes.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Right right after you like a deer testicle and a
one hundred year old eggnog.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
These are the episodes I remember. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Oh yeah, dude, fear Factor was disgusting.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
The example I always give to my patients about exposure
therapy is I actually used to be kind of afraid
of talking on the phone. Made me really anxious, didn't
like it, And a lot of people tell me that
they don't like talking on the phone until I had
to do it for work, and I pushed myself to
do it, and then before I knew it, it was second nature.
Now talking on the phone doesn't bother me at all.
But like I had to do it, I had to
(29:22):
do it enough to the point where it slowly desensitized
that reaction and it doesn't make me anxious anymore.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
True.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
What else do we have in the therapy world.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
We got applied relaxation, so teaching people how to use
different relaxation techniques like progressive muscle relaxation in those anxiety
provoking social situations, so your body and mind does stay
more calm. It's a coping mechanism to deal and learn
how to deal with that anxiety.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, we got social skills training and so pretty much
teaching like basic communication social skills. So if we have
a plan and a strategy for engaging in conversation, we
feel less awkward about it. Let me tell you that
second book that I mentioned does have homework assignments and
things like how to continue a conversation, how to ask
open ended questions, that kind of thing to help train
(30:12):
the students potentially in a group set, in an individual set,
and how to do these things things like eye contact,
attentive posture, how to start a conversation giving positive feedback.
They're all part of this training and really can help
make social situations a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
And even some mindfulness training helping people be mindful of
their social anxiety so that they know how to identify it,
potentially even externalize it, put it outside of their body
so they don't feel like it's inside of them all
the time. Seeologically, and then have some of those coping
mechanisms to help reduce the anxiety once we have spotted.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It, and then exercise. If you can exercise in a group,
it's a great way to connect, to make friends, be healthy,
learn social skills, feel connected to the community, all things
that can kind of help you get that practice and
see that the concerns that you having, you know rightfully
so because that's the way your brain is working, that
you can work past those things, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I was just thinking, exercising in a group can be
really good unless you're like really gassy. And then but
I did a yoga class with my mom a while
back where the yoga instructor literally like halfway through is like,
if you've got it, just let it out. Just no
judgment here, like be comfortable, be with everyone, just let
(31:28):
it go. And I was like, you know what, I
love that.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Did you do it? I did not at the moment.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Surprisingly, I didn't have one in the chamber, but that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Would have been loaded.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Some celebrities with social anxiety. To wrap up the episode,
the big one that I found was Eddie didn't know
who Naomi Osaka is.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Of course, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
The tennis player. She was actually, like most athletes forced
to do a lot of press comp diferences as on
the pro circuit. In twenty twenty one, during the French Open,
she declined to participate in the press conferences, which did
not make the brass of the Tennis Federation very happy.
The tournament officials even threatened with her with fines and
(32:15):
threatened to kick her off of the or out of
the French Open. So she just dropped out. She's like, deuces,
not doing this. Yeah, good for her, Like, you know,
I'm not doing this. She's a self described introvert and
says that she often hides in her headphones to try
and dull that anxiety, be in her own world, trying
to tune out the rest of the world. And so
she's learning how to.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Deal with it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And yeah, she's pretty cool. I like her a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
The next one, Eddie know who Barber streisand is No,
she is an old white lady who is very She
actually I think had more number one hits than like anyone,
or like more Grammys for number one hits or something
until like Beyonce broke her record or something like that.
(32:59):
So I didn't realize she was such a prolific singer
back in the day. But she we want to bring
up this example because it doesn't actually sound a ton
like social anxiety. It sounds more like performance anxiety to me.
But it kind of shows how we don't quite know
the difference societally between the two. But she gets really
(33:20):
bad stage fright, and apparently when she was doing a
concert in Central Park in nineteen sixty seven, she forgot
the words to her own song. And as a songwriter myself,
that's the worst feeling in the world. And you're like singing,
You're like.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh crap, what did I put for this?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And she was so terrified that it would happen again
that she didn't actually perform in public for thirty years.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Wow. Wild right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So she actually started using medicine to help her not
feel so anxious when performing, And there's a quote from
her that says, one reason I can perform now is
that they have pills for stage fright. I wish someone
would have told me about these pills years ago. The
most common one we use these days is called Propranolol.
Works great, yea. It prevents that fight or flight response,
prevents your heart from racing, keeps you calm, keeps you cool,
(34:06):
and can really help people who are struggling with social
anxiety and stage fright.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
The one that I have, I think is I feel
like I've seen it in the past. I think Marshawn
Lynch is someone who struggled with social anxiety. If you remember,
I think there was a discussion years ago when he
was basically refusing to talk to the media and then
he kind of got in trouble and then he came
out and he had that famous interview where he just
(34:31):
kept fancying with I'm just here so I won't get fined.
I think I think it's either speculation or it's true
that he might actually be struggling. He might have struggled
before with social anxiety.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, I just kind of looked it up a little
bit and from Barstool Sports, who I trust wholeheartedly, he
overcame his paralyzing social anxiety to appear on the Conan Show.
So yeah, it kind of gives a couple of Yeah,
it sounds like he did have some really bad social anxiety.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I was just in Vancouver doing some skiing at Whistler
and I saw something that I haven't seen in a
long time. But when I used to live in Seattle,
Marshaw Lynch used to do those commercials for the heating
and plumbing business Beacon. I love those commercials. So he's
like quick freaking can't Bacon.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
So it was nice to see that again.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
He's a national treasure.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Man, he is. And if you guys don't know, we
say take carry all mentals. That was Marshaw Lynch. Yeah,
it was when he was retiring. In his speech of like,
he was telling everyone to, you know, take care of
their mental health, which I mean, how many how many
times do you hear pro athletes at the end of
their career. They want the last positive thing to say.
They talk about getting health for your mental health. Like,
(35:55):
we love Marshawn. He's a good dude.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
He's been. I saw a video with him recently.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I think he was.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
He was he was doing like a podcast or an
interview with one of his own teammates. I feel bad,
And I remember when his teammate's name was. I think
his last name was Robinson. But basically had Marshawn had
at one point brought in to like the locker room.
He brought in a jeweler, and he brought in a
financial advisor, and he basically was like, I'm paying for
them to be here. You guys go talk to whoever
(36:22):
you want to. And most of the people went to
the jeweler right trying to buy like all these things,
spend a bunch of money, and he's like, all right,
you're allowed to buy from them or whatever, but whatever
amount of money you're about to put into the jeweler,
I need you to put the same with the financial advisor,
like put it into like an investment or something.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Hell yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A lot of them were like, I don't know, I
don't know, and so yeah, I think Marshawan is seems
like he's always kind of been that low, low key,
behind the scenes, like bigger picture guy, like he seems
to get it in terms of, yeah, fame and fortune
and taking care of He's definitely a community guy. There's
(36:59):
so many clips of him talking about, like you know,
giving out turkeys back in Seattle and Oakland, just being
a great community member. That's that seems to be Marshawan.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And just one of the most vicious running backs ever.
He was such a beast, hence his nickname. It's cool
to see that he's he's such a real person and
he's such an EmPATH. He cares about people and he
actually does things to help other people in a genuine
and true way. So yeah, that's that's one of our
(37:34):
goals for the shows to get marsha On one's start.
If any of you listeners out there know marsha On,
you get him any big take home points, Eddie.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I think it's something that's just not going to go
away overnight. So I think if we can maybe for
the adults or people in our life that maybe don't
understand it as much or kind of shit on it
a little bit, trying to help normalize it, understand that
it's something that the younger generations are going through right
now and trying to work through, and to be to
(38:13):
have some empathy for them, I think could really go
a long way.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
What do you got, don't run from the anxiety. And
this is just kind of a good rule in life too.
There are going to be a lot of things that
make you feel anxious, that make you feel nervous, and
that's normal. It's okay obviously if it's getting in the
way of your life, try and seek help for it,
but don't be afraid to expose yourself to the things
that make you anxious, because over time they'll get better
(38:39):
and better, and you won't. You won't have your life
run by your anxiety. That's kind of my like, don't
let your anxiety run your life. Take control back from
the anxiety and learn how to expose yourself to the
things that make you feel nervous.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Love it. This one was fun. I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Thanks for reading all the books and everything.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
You're so studious. Shit, you're a.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Good little reader.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Ready. Thanks On that note, thank you all for listening.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever else you get your podcasts, you
can find us. Leave us a five star view, Go
ahead and follow, like, share, subscribe, whatever button there is,
feel free to press it, leave us a comment. We'd
love to respond, and we'd just love to see it
on social media at Millennium MHC in our website www
dot Millennium MC dot com. Thank you all for listening,
and shout out to Marshawn. Remember to take care of
(39:32):
y'all mentors.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Go Broncos.
We always hate when older generations kind of crap on
the younger generations because who made them that way?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Who raised them? Who are the parents?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano,
a child adolescent psychiatry fellow.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And I'm Adi Koreo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
is here because we wanted to start a much nearer
conversation about mental health.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our goal is to teach you as much as we
can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
you enjoy today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia me I Hearmer. Hello,
and welcome back to MMHC. We had a long break
for the holidays, so it's nice to be back. We
feel refreshed, We're ready to do some learning. Today we're
talking about social anxiety, Eddie. What gives you social anxiety?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You know the other day, I gave a professional development
training with two of my coworkers and one of them,
who's a school counselor who's been doing it for a
long time, told everybody in the room, like, isn't it
funny that I'm giving a presentation on anxiety and I'm
feeling extremely anxious. I don't know, I told you before this,
(01:29):
but I went back to a new semester of teaching
for me, so outside of working at the high school,
I'm teaching at Pacific and I definitely was like I
could feel my heart racing a little bit, I was
feeling little nervous, got a little sweaty.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I guess to bring it back to the question and
maybe give like a general answer. Maybe things where I
am worried that I'll say something wrong. Maybe performances. I
don't know, but I do I enjoyed like that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I don't know, I don't know. Gotcha, what do you
got anything that gives you anxiety, that makes you nervous?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What are we thinking? You know?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
When I was younger, crowds didn't like being in crowds
in like crowded places. It makes my shoulders really tight,
makes me just like, but it's gotten better as i've
pushed myself to do it, and the more concerts I've
gone to and everything, it just makes it a lot easier,
which is the concept of exposure therapy. Like if something
makes you anxious, do it a lot and it gets better.
(02:34):
So it's gotten better with time. But yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Just my mom would tell you too, Like when I
was growing up, if there was like a crowded place
or something.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I was just not into it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
You know what I'll say now that you that we
think about it. Anytime where I don't know like how
something's going to play out, definitely, yeah, ixious, I'll start to,
like all the thoughts pop into my head and I
just jump from one to another.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
All the different possible outcomes. But it seems like from
a professional standpoint as a psychiatrist, you as a therapist, counselor,
I know I'm seeing a lot of kids with social
anxiety and it's happening all the time, especially because I
do an assessment called a Scared Child Assessment that rates
all of your different types of anxiety generalized anxiety, social anxiety,
(03:20):
separation anxiety, and almost all of my teenagers screen positive
for social anxiety. It's almost the rule as opposed to
the exception that everyone's got some social anxiety going on.
So I was curious. As a young psychiatrist'm always thinking like,
is this new? Has always been this way? Because it
feels like it's new, it feels like it's something that's
on the rise. So we wanted to do an episode
(03:42):
on it and see what we think. So what we
find out, I think.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
What's hard anytime you start to see I guess this
would just be my assumption, but anytime you start to
see trends where things become more prevalent or feel like
they're more prevalent, Because I think if you and I,
in our separate roles in separate states, are kind of
experiencing a similar thing where there's an increase and stuff.
One of my concerns ends up being like, well, if
a lot of people have this, like, how many people
(04:05):
are going to kind of like try to downplay it.
I see a lot where people will be like, well,
if everybody has anxiety, then nobody has anxiety, or like,
you know, a little bit of anxiety is good. Yes, correct,
that's fine. A little bit of anxiety is good. But
I think for a lot of our kids and teens
our gen zers, our gen alphas, they're experiencing at a
way that they it just impacts their well being and
(04:27):
their day to day. So it is I don't know, Yeah,
we'll talk about it today, but it is something that
I feel like I see a lot too. Just our
kids are struggling. They're having a whole being kids, interacting,
doing the typical things in the classroom you'd expect, it
is hard for them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
As a general rule, on MMHC, we say like, if
something's getting in the way of your life, it's worth
looking into and trying to get help because we don't
want these things to get in the way of your life,
so you can live your happiest.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Life for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So some stats in Facts on Social Anxiety is that
it is relatively common, with about two hundred thousand new
cases per year in the United States. It was initially
described in the nineteen sixties, but still over half of
people with it never seek any sort of treatment.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Another source, the Seattle Anxiety Specialist, say that about fifteen
million people in total in the US have been diagnosed,
so this is about seven percent of the population. It's
also important to consider that there are probably a lot
of people not getting diagnosed or not getting treated. I
remember one time getting asked this question of like, okay,
if this is where the rates of mental health or
(05:34):
mental illness is, what is the number?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Actually?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Is that like a good reflection of it? Is it more?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Would it be less if people were actually seeing practition?
And it made me think like this whole like chicken
before the egg thing that blew my mind for a
little bit, and then I just had to stop thinking
about it. And now that I bring it up again,
I'm like, I need to like blink a couple of.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Times, reboot your brain a little.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, Oh, let's pousit real quick.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
To the average age of onset for social anxiety is
about thirteen years old. That's when people really start to
feel this the most. It's also sometimes called social phobia
to give you like another name, an older name. And
we just hear young people say all the time, I
just feel like everyone's looking at me, they're judging me
all the time. I mean, that's something I hear almost
(06:24):
every day from my patients. They're just always afraid that
they're being judged in social situations at school and the
lunch room and assemblies and everything. They just feel like
they're just everyone's eyes are on them and they're being
judged constantly.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You know what's so interesting about that is that fear
of like being spotlighted or being watched, is that this
might be one of the times where we are least
watched by other people in human history. Everybody else is
way into their phone, way into the music and their headphones.
They are not paying attention to the world around them,
(06:58):
and yet a lot of kids feel like they just
have eyes on them twenty four to seven. Here's the
thing that I wish we could really get across to
a lot of teens is as much as you feel
like you're being watched, you're being spotlighted. They're the kids
around you that feel the exact same way, and their
eyes are down on purpose. They're walking through the halls,
(07:18):
pretending to be on their phone. They're walking through the
halls head down, got their hood on. I feel like
we're being watched the least among our peers, probably in
any other generation. But it feels like the eyes are
on us all the.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Time, totally. That's a great point, and sometimes it's important
to tell yourself that in the moment that I might
be feeling this way, but is that the reality of
the situation. Does anyone really care? Is anyone really looking
at me? Am I really being judged? Or One thing
I try and tell my young patience is if you
see someone out in public, like are you saying are
(07:52):
you judging them in your mind? Are you saying terrible
things in your mind? And most of them say no,
you know yea and so like, well then why would
they do that too? You back? So trying to help
reframe those thoughts so that they're they're not so pervasive,
they're not so terrible.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
A big thing to remember, just with with most mental
health disorders is that in order to meet the diagnosis criteria,
it has to be getting in the way of your
daily life. I think the way they put it as
like one of the final criteria for most mental health
disorders is like impairment and daily function. Maybe that's just
the way that I have it in my head. It
makes it a little easier to remember, but yeah, it
has to impair your day to day life. And then
(08:29):
another stat and fact is that females are more likely
to complain of social anxiety than males, while men are
actually more likely to have social anxiety around issues like dating.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So interesting tidbits, little fun for you, quick story time.
Been a while since we've done a story time. Yeah,
But during the pandemic especially, I had a lot of
patients who were just constantly trying to hide and hide
in their own lives.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So the type of.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Patient that they would grow their hair out long, it
would rape it over their eyes, so you never knew
where they were looking. They would hide behind their mask
and never take it off. They would speak incredibly quiet.
They would do anything they could to not be noticed,
not be called upon in class, not be singled out
or spotlighted in any sort of way. It feels like
(09:19):
this has gotten so much better since the pandemic, and
I wonder how much if it was having to switch
to online schools. But it just seemed like so many
young people were just hiding so much, just didn't want
to be seen whatsoever. And I'm curious we don't have
any solid answers as to why. I didn't even have
any solid answers as to if other people were seeing
(09:41):
this a big trend like I was, but just interesting
and something I wanted to bring up that it was
a time where where young people just did not want
to be seen.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
For my story time. It's about books. I'm really thinking
about it. As I talked to Justin before this, I've
done a lot of reading on anxiety and social anxiety
like this school year, and I guess I didn't really
realize it until ten minutes ago. So right now I'm
reading this book called The Anxious Generation by John Hate.
(10:12):
I think that's how you pronounced the last name. It's
been pretty popular. I believe it came out in July
of twenty twenty four. I mean it's so popular, in
fact that when I checked it out from my local library,
remember support your local library. When I checked it out
from the library, it had just gotten returned the day before,
and it was in the no holds, no renewal section
and you only had fourteen days to read it as
(10:34):
opposed to the twenty one days that you normally get
with a book. So it's pretty popular. I tried to
put a hold on it for the Libby app, and
that's got a long ass weight list. So anyway, I
have it in my possession. I'm trying to finish it
this week because I don't have a choice. I have
to return it. But he's a social psychologist. He brings
up a lot of really interesting points in terms of
(10:56):
why he thinks that our gen Z or Gen Alpha,
and maybe even maybe even a little bit of the
millennials are so anxious today. He mentions things like having
less of a play based childhood. He mentioned things like
potentially overprotectiveness from parents, and then he brings up, like
you would expect, social media and internet use. What I
do like about his perspective is he's not just leaning
(11:18):
into only social media and internet use. I think that's
an easy thing for us to lean into. But he
does bring up some other factors like the play based
childhood and the parental potentially over protectiveness. So I won't
spoil it for you. There's a big twist at the end.
Just kidding, there's not because it's a it's an informational book,
but if you are a clinician, you're working a school,
(11:40):
you're just interested in learning a little more. I do
also really recommend a book. I'm not done with it.
I would love to finish it by the time the
school year ends. Just hard in between stuff with work.
But I'm currently reading some book slash manual. It's called
Helping Students Overcome social anxiety. Then the subtext is Skills
for Academic and social success.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That book has been.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Really interesting too, because it's really pointed out a lot
of things related to what are some signs of social
anxiety that we don't typically expect. Things like walking the
hall's eyes glued to your cell phone because you don't
want to be seen or seeing other people. Things like
not wanting to be called on in class so you
have to go use the bathroom and then you never
come back. Things like I'm already late to school. I'm
(12:23):
just not going to go because people are going to
see me walk into the classroom. One thing that's really
stood out to me maybe a couple of things. Actually
I could ramble about this all day, I think, but
couple things that have stood out is the authors talk
about how social anxiety is often mistaken for shyness. Might
not seem like a huge issue, but the issue then
comes from people just assume you'll grow out of it,
(12:46):
and when you don't grow out of it, then they
just start to assume that you're just not taking things seriously,
you're not trying to get better, So that really impacts
a lot of kids. The other thing that really opened
my eyes, a lot of kids who are socially anxious,
let's say around the thirteen years old and on, they
tend to have when they do have a friend group,
they tend to have a very small, strong connection to
(13:08):
those friends. So one, if they lose any of those friends,
it's a big deal to them because it really is
kind of like the end of such an important relationship.
Number Two, they have a really hard time making other friends.
So if they go somewhere like a new school, like
they move to college, and they have a hard time
connecting with others, it's potentially the social anxiety that's really
(13:29):
getting in a way. So anyway, if you're interested in
learning any more about anxiety, social anxiety, just the where
our kids are today, where they might be headed, just
some interesting information, I definitely recommend those two books.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Cool and another reason why we wanted to talk about
this because Eddie's just been prolifically.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Reading all of this. Now that I say it, it's like,
holy shit, this might be too much.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I need to cal them down, put some great points there.
And you know, it could certainly even be a combination
of a couple of different factors. And yeah, we'll kind
of dive more into that. In terms of actual diagnostic criteria,
this is what social anxiety disorder is. It is a
(14:14):
persistent and intense fear of social situations because you believe
you may be judged negatively, embarrassed, or humiliated.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Avoidance of anxiety producing social situations or enduring them with
intense fear or anxiety.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Excessive anxiety that's out of proportion to the.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Situation, anxiety or distress that interferes with your daily living, fear.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Or anxiety that is not better explained via a medical condition, medications,
or substance use. Like if you're slamming a bunch of
coffee every day and that makes you really feel anxious,
and that's what's causing your anxiety, it's not technically social anxiety.
Or if you've got a rip roller in tuma that's
releasing like a bunch of you know, catcholamines or something
(14:57):
like that, then that wouldn't be social anxiety either.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Did I ever tell you about it?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
I feel like I mentioned this to ever tell you
about the In my psychopathology class back in grad school,
how our professor wrote us this whole like case conceptualization
of like this is a vignette and I want you
to tell me what diagnosis you think this is. And
he made it so much to the point where everybody thought,
it's like, oh, it's got to be like bipolar. They
got to be having mania or something, and the answer
(15:23):
was like caffeine induced something or other.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And we're like, are you kidding? That was cheating.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I love the idea of like making a question like
that and just having an answer that's totally out of
the blue.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It worked because you remember, yeah, well, yeah, shit, you're right.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But a lot of people were like, I think he
wrote this case conceptualization about himself, that man's always bouncing
off the walls.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
He was just trying to feel better about. Maybe some
data and studies that we wanted to talk about on
this episode are There was a study from Jeffries and
Younger twenty twenty. It was a self report survey from
multiple countries Brazil, Estonia, Russia, Thailand, US, and Vietnam. On average,
(16:14):
thirty six percent of participants aged sixteen to twenty nine
met the threshold for social anxiety disorder. The US actually
had the highest rate of social anxiety disorder at nearly
fifty eight percent, and then surprisingly Indonesia had the lowest
at twenty two point nine percent.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I feel like I'm not surprised by the US having
the highest.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, you know, we would do it better than anyone.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Baby one on.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
In the study, ninety percent of new cases of social
anxiety reported to have occurred by the time the individual
reached twenty three years old, So it was indicating that
younger people are the ones that are feeling the most
social anxiety, and that kind of coincides with our thoughts
and what we've kind of read like from the literature
that it tends to be a generational thing, and not
necessarily a generational divide, but a generational thing that is
(17:08):
more impacting the generations below us in terms of age.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So why is social anxiety disorder on the rise? Short answer,
we don't know for sure. It's probably the phones, or
at least it's contributing heavily to it. One of the
hypothesis hypotheses that we were reading about is that social
media is causing the rise. There's so much judgment on
(17:34):
social media, so much comparison of your life. There's a
lot of different hypotheses, and it's probably probably going to
end up being a combination of all of them or
some of them. There's also a hypothesis that because so
many of our interactions are becoming virtual these days, that
in person interactions are becoming more awkward and anxiety provoking
because people are losing those skills to interact in person
(17:59):
and navigate throughfficult or awkward social situations.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
You know, I have a really hard time with that idea,
not because I think it's wrong, but only because I
feel like it just gets reinforced for a lot of
like older people, from like an older generation of like
these kids don't know how to talk to each other anymore.
It's like they might have never been taught, they might
have not needed to, and maybe we did a shit
(18:23):
job of teaching them, right you think of COVID too.
I think we've talked about it, either on the show
or separately. Like when I got to work in the
school the very first year that our school opened full
time with kids back, we were wearing masks and stuff.
But when we got back to school, like a lot
of these kids had not been in school for a
year and a half, so our ninth graders may have
(18:45):
still been feeling like seventh graders. They didn't know how
to interact with high schoolers. So not only did you
have ninth graders who were still kind of seventh graders,
you had sophomores who were still kind of eighth graders.
So you kind of had a mix of middle schoolers
and high schoolers trying to interact with each other and couldn't.
They had a really hard time.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We always hate when older generations kind of crap on
the younger generations because who made them that way, who raised.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Them, who were the parents?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
It's you. You gotta look at the mirror, baby. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Well, there was an interesting study. When I was reading
over the notes, this was a it made me think
a little bit. But there was a study from Fischler
at All in twenty twenty one that speculated that stressors
and anxiety are changing on our society as a whole.
So things like we're less worried about where our food
is coming from, access to clean water, in our safety.
We're emphasizing more material goods, money, and social social appearance,
(19:41):
and this shift could be causing people to fear more
social anxiety, to feel more insecure about themselves. I've talked
about when I give classroom presentations about social media and
internet use, there's a lot of like fomo fear of
missing out. There's a lot of like feeling like we
need to wear these certain things because they're trendy.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
We see teens all the time that I have to
wear these because everyone's wearing them. I have to get
these clothes, I have to do these things. And maybe
it's more, maybe it's more pervasive than it was even
when you and I were teenagers.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I feel like when we were growing up, it was
cool to do your own thing, Like, you know, obviously
there's some cool brands and things that people wanted to do,
but it was also cool to just kind of do
your own thing. And it feels like, I don't know,
maybe that's changing a little bit for the younger generation too.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I think there's this like really popular tweet from like
a long time ago from Tyler the creator, who is
like he said something like, what do you mean you're
being cyberbullied? Like just close the turn off the computer, right,
And it's like, hah, that's pretty funny. Like when we
were younger, it's like, yeah, I just don't log onto
white Space or Facebook. But now I feel like it's
so intertwined in to everybody's life that you can't really
(20:49):
log off right, Like a lot of kids are using
Snapchat to text each other, a lot of kids are
communicating through Instagram and whatever other social media TikTok, and
it's hard to sh that off because then you feel
like you're not connected to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Plus, you know, I didn't really necessarily read about but
one of my potential hypotheses for a lot of this
stuff is that in the past, people used to have downtime.
You know, people used to have time where they did nothing,
or they read a book, they did something that was calming.
But too much dopamine and too much activation from social
media from all this stuff really ramps up your nervous
(21:25):
system as well. So in the past, you know, if
you sat on a bus, you sat there doing nothing,
you calm down, you wound down. But now you're constantly
doing something and most of us are on our phone
for four to five hours of day, which ramps you
up even more and could be potentially making our nervous
systems more reactive. So I don't have any data or
(21:45):
evidence or studies to back that up, but just kind
of throwing out more different theories as to what's going on?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, now, people on the toilet watching TikTok and.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Videos and whatever.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Back in the day, we're reading the back of the
shampoo bottle.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Whatever you had to do, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, I don't know. I guess we joke about it.
But the more we say these things, I feel like,
the more it makes me feel like, can we really
put the blame on kids? No, they're doing the best
they can with what they got. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
If anything, we should be, you know, blaming the adults,
the people who raise them, maybe the tech companies for
giving almost every young person in this country in addiction.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I know you're on that one. I'm with you, Yeah,
I know.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So what do we do about this? What are some
treatments for social anxiety? So, as with most types of anxiety,
it's typically recommended to start with therapy. That's always a
good place to start with a lot of these things.
Medication can also be somewhat helpful. But I was just
at the big ACAP conference American Academy Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists,
(22:53):
and actually one of the teaching points was that social
anxiety is the type of anxiety that's least likely to
respond to medicine. So that's where I mean, it can
help a little bit, but therapy and learning how to
deal with, cope with, manage the social anxiety is really
going to be where you get the most bang for
your back.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I think a lot of kids kind of just have
to have that experience of like, Okay, I'm not gonna
die or it's not going to be the worst thing ever,
it's gonna be okay. How many times I have a
kid in my office who has a really hard time
talking to a teacher and then I tell them like, okay,
well let me email them first, or let's go talk
to them together, and then it ends up fine and
(23:33):
they're like, okay, yeah, I can talk to it.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
That makes a lot of sense to me. In terms
of therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
What do we have.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
We have exposure therapy, just jump right in. We do
see a lot of young people who are letting their
anxiety run their lives. Unfortunately, they're doing the best they can,
but this is just kind of how it ends up.
They feel anxious about being around people, so they use
that as an excuse to get out of school or
do homeschooling. I've seen this a lot over the last years.
(24:08):
You know, it's interesting that you mentioned this. Chronic absenteeism
is on the rise after COVID. That's been one of
our school goals over the last couple of years to
raise school attendance. I will say our school attendance is
actually probably higher than the national average. Do we really
need to focus on that, That's a question for someone else.
But chronic absenteeism is a big thing. There's a lot
(24:30):
of articles on it. There's a lot of schools that
kids are just not going to class. I have some
theories on this. We don't have to talk about it,
but I'll ramble for a little bit. This is my thought.
I think because of COVID, we got used to a
lot of things used to and we had to. It
was out of necessity. Things needed to be available online.
(24:52):
Classwork needed to be available online, lectures needed to be
available online. That didn't stop, and because that didn't stop,
a lot of kids started to see, oh I'm a junior,
I'm a senior. I drive to school. I don't really
need to be here if I have internet at the
house and I could just log on and get my
stuff done. So I think that's part of it. I
definitely think that the anxiety. I think the stressor of school.
(25:15):
I think all that combined is part of it. But
I think a big part of it is that we
did get stuck a little bit with the access to
stuff online, and because so many things are online, kids
really kids. I think kids are starting to see what
is the point of quoting to school. So that's my
two cents on it. I think other people have different opinions,
but that's what I got.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I think that makes sense that even happened in my
med school class. Yeah, Like these people were training to
be doctors, they were in their early twenties, but everything
was online. And there were people that I didn't see
the entire med school experience because they just didn't go
to anything. They're like, I can do this online, I'm
not coming in person.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, but I'm the.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Kind of person who needs to learn in person and
learn from a teacher. So I came anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, No, I am a dude.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, lots of kids are refusing to go back to school.
I've got so many patients and families and they're just
trying to navigate this. The kids are anxious, it's not
going well. They're not getting the help that they need,
and a lot of parents pull their kids out of school,
homeschool them, do different options that they have, and I always, always,
always recommend, and every case is different, and there could
(26:28):
be some cases where it's like, Okay, it's okay to
be homeschooled, let things calm down. But most of the time,
I say, try and keep them in school. If you
take them out, then it's going to make things worse
over time. They're never going to learn how to deal. Yeah,
it's just the start. It's going to get worse and
worse and worse. So as much as you can, if
you've got social anxiety, if it's getting into school, get
(26:48):
help for it, like talk to people, go to therapy,
talk to the counselors at school. But try and stay
in school because kids, it's cool to stay in school.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
That was bad. No, no, no, I like it. I mentioned
this on this show. I'm pretty sure I don't even
remember what show it was.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
It was about tying your shoes, you do the loop loop.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Beca there was a SpongeBob song.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Either way, I think we've.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Talked about when it comes to anxiety, the exposure part
is super important. I think that's that's really what's going
to help a lot with with getting better and understanding that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's because like when when.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Kids are experiencing anxiety, they're basically perceiving that there's a
dangerous situation in the absence of like the dangerous situation,
so they're like on edge, like something bad is about
to happen. They feel that they understand that in their brain,
but they aren't able to like make that connection that well,
nothing bad is going to happen until you can experience it, right.
(27:56):
So when it comes to exposure, we have a couple
types we have to The first one is systematic desensitization.
I knew I was going to trip over that, which
is basically slowly increasing exposure to the thing that makes
you anxious. So, for example, fear of snakes, maybe starting
with showing a picture of a snake, then moving to
(28:18):
a rubber snake, then eventually getting up to a real snake,
and knowing that you know, we're building up to this
point of like, okay, I've made it. The snake did
not kill me. We're okay.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And then there's flooding, which is like exposure therapy that's
really fast. You just dive right in and flood your
senses with what makes you anxious, Like, for example, you
got a fear of snakes, and then you jump straight
into being on an episode of fear Factor. We have
to sit in a tub of live snakes.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Right right after you like a deer testicle and a
one hundred year old eggnog.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
These are the episodes I remember. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Oh yeah, dude, fear Factor was disgusting.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
The example I always give to my patients about exposure
therapy is I actually used to be kind of afraid
of talking on the phone. Made me really anxious, didn't
like it, And a lot of people tell me that
they don't like talking on the phone until I had
to do it for work, and I pushed myself to
do it, and then before I knew it, it was second nature.
Now talking on the phone doesn't bother me at all.
But like I had to do it, I had to
(29:22):
do it enough to the point where it slowly desensitized
that reaction and it doesn't make me anxious anymore.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
True.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
What else do we have in the therapy world.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
We got applied relaxation, so teaching people how to use
different relaxation techniques like progressive muscle relaxation in those anxiety
provoking social situations, so your body and mind does stay
more calm. It's a coping mechanism to deal and learn
how to deal with that anxiety.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, we got social skills training and so pretty much
teaching like basic communication social skills. So if we have
a plan and a strategy for engaging in conversation, we
feel less awkward about it. Let me tell you that
second book that I mentioned does have homework assignments and
things like how to continue a conversation, how to ask
open ended questions, that kind of thing to help train
(30:12):
the students potentially in a group set, in an individual set,
and how to do these things things like eye contact,
attentive posture, how to start a conversation giving positive feedback.
They're all part of this training and really can help
make social situations a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
And even some mindfulness training helping people be mindful of
their social anxiety so that they know how to identify it,
potentially even externalize it, put it outside of their body
so they don't feel like it's inside of them all
the time. Seeologically, and then have some of those coping
mechanisms to help reduce the anxiety once we have spotted.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It, and then exercise. If you can exercise in a group,
it's a great way to connect, to make friends, be healthy,
learn social skills, feel connected to the community, all things
that can kind of help you get that practice and
see that the concerns that you having, you know rightfully
so because that's the way your brain is working, that
you can work past those things, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I was just thinking, exercising in a group can be
really good unless you're like really gassy. And then but
I did a yoga class with my mom a while
back where the yoga instructor literally like halfway through is like,
if you've got it, just let it out. Just no
judgment here, like be comfortable, be with everyone, just let
(31:28):
it go. And I was like, you know what, I
love that.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Did you do it? I did not at the moment.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Surprisingly, I didn't have one in the chamber, but that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Would have been loaded.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Some celebrities with social anxiety. To wrap up the episode,
the big one that I found was Eddie didn't know
who Naomi Osaka is.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Of course, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
The tennis player. She was actually, like most athletes forced
to do a lot of press comp diferences as on
the pro circuit. In twenty twenty one, during the French Open,
she declined to participate in the press conferences, which did
not make the brass of the Tennis Federation very happy.
The tournament officials even threatened with her with fines and
(32:15):
threatened to kick her off of the or out of
the French Open. So she just dropped out. She's like, deuces,
not doing this. Yeah, good for her, Like, you know,
I'm not doing this. She's a self described introvert and
says that she often hides in her headphones to try
and dull that anxiety, be in her own world, trying
to tune out the rest of the world. And so
she's learning how to.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Deal with it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And yeah, she's pretty cool. I like her a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
The next one, Eddie know who Barber streisand is No,
she is an old white lady who is very She
actually I think had more number one hits than like anyone,
or like more Grammys for number one hits or something
until like Beyonce broke her record or something like that.
(32:59):
So I didn't realize she was such a prolific singer
back in the day. But she we want to bring
up this example because it doesn't actually sound a ton
like social anxiety. It sounds more like performance anxiety to me.
But it kind of shows how we don't quite know
the difference societally between the two. But she gets really
(33:20):
bad stage fright, and apparently when she was doing a
concert in Central Park in nineteen sixty seven, she forgot
the words to her own song. And as a songwriter myself,
that's the worst feeling in the world. And you're like singing,
You're like.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh crap, what did I put for this?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And she was so terrified that it would happen again
that she didn't actually perform in public for thirty years.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Wow. Wild right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So she actually started using medicine to help her not
feel so anxious when performing, And there's a quote from
her that says, one reason I can perform now is
that they have pills for stage fright. I wish someone
would have told me about these pills years ago. The
most common one we use these days is called Propranolol.
Works great, yea. It prevents that fight or flight response,
prevents your heart from racing, keeps you calm, keeps you cool,
(34:06):
and can really help people who are struggling with social
anxiety and stage fright.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
The one that I have, I think is I feel
like I've seen it in the past. I think Marshawn
Lynch is someone who struggled with social anxiety. If you remember,
I think there was a discussion years ago when he
was basically refusing to talk to the media and then
he kind of got in trouble and then he came
out and he had that famous interview where he just
(34:31):
kept fancying with I'm just here so I won't get fined.
I think I think it's either speculation or it's true
that he might actually be struggling. He might have struggled
before with social anxiety.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, I just kind of looked it up a little
bit and from Barstool Sports, who I trust wholeheartedly, he
overcame his paralyzing social anxiety to appear on the Conan Show.
So yeah, it kind of gives a couple of Yeah,
it sounds like he did have some really bad social anxiety.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I was just in Vancouver doing some skiing at Whistler
and I saw something that I haven't seen in a
long time. But when I used to live in Seattle,
Marshaw Lynch used to do those commercials for the heating
and plumbing business Beacon. I love those commercials. So he's
like quick freaking can't Bacon.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
So it was nice to see that again.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
He's a national treasure.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Man, he is. And if you guys don't know, we
say take carry all mentals. That was Marshaw Lynch. Yeah,
it was when he was retiring. In his speech of like,
he was telling everyone to, you know, take care of
their mental health, which I mean, how many how many
times do you hear pro athletes at the end of
their career. They want the last positive thing to say.
They talk about getting health for your mental health. Like,
(35:55):
we love Marshawn. He's a good dude.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
He's been. I saw a video with him recently.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I think he was.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
He was he was doing like a podcast or an
interview with one of his own teammates. I feel bad,
And I remember when his teammate's name was. I think
his last name was Robinson. But basically had Marshawn had
at one point brought in to like the locker room.
He brought in a jeweler, and he brought in a
financial advisor, and he basically was like, I'm paying for
them to be here. You guys go talk to whoever
(36:22):
you want to. And most of the people went to
the jeweler right trying to buy like all these things,
spend a bunch of money, and he's like, all right,
you're allowed to buy from them or whatever, but whatever
amount of money you're about to put into the jeweler,
I need you to put the same with the financial advisor,
like put it into like an investment or something.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Hell yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A lot of them were like, I don't know, I
don't know, and so yeah, I think Marshawan is seems
like he's always kind of been that low, low key,
behind the scenes, like bigger picture guy, like he seems
to get it in terms of, yeah, fame and fortune
and taking care of He's definitely a community guy. There's
(36:59):
so many clips of him talking about, like you know,
giving out turkeys back in Seattle and Oakland, just being
a great community member. That's that seems to be Marshawan.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And just one of the most vicious running backs ever.
He was such a beast, hence his nickname. It's cool
to see that he's he's such a real person and
he's such an EmPATH. He cares about people and he
actually does things to help other people in a genuine
and true way. So yeah, that's that's one of our
(37:34):
goals for the shows to get marsha On one's start.
If any of you listeners out there know marsha On,
you get him any big take home points, Eddie.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I think it's something that's just not going to go
away overnight. So I think if we can maybe for
the adults or people in our life that maybe don't
understand it as much or kind of shit on it
a little bit, trying to help normalize it, understand that
it's something that the younger generations are going through right
now and trying to work through, and to be to
(38:13):
have some empathy for them, I think could really go
a long way.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
What do you got, don't run from the anxiety. And
this is just kind of a good rule in life too.
There are going to be a lot of things that
make you feel anxious, that make you feel nervous, and
that's normal. It's okay obviously if it's getting in the
way of your life, try and seek help for it,
but don't be afraid to expose yourself to the things
that make you anxious, because over time they'll get better
(38:39):
and better, and you won't. You won't have your life
run by your anxiety. That's kind of my like, don't
let your anxiety run your life. Take control back from
the anxiety and learn how to expose yourself to the
things that make you feel nervous.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Love it. This one was fun. I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Thanks for reading all the books and everything.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
You're so studious. Shit, you're a.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Good little reader.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Ready. Thanks On that note, thank you all for listening.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever else you get your podcasts, you
can find us. Leave us a five star view, Go
ahead and follow, like, share, subscribe, whatever button there is,
feel free to press it, leave us a comment. We'd
love to respond, and we'd just love to see it
on social media at Millennium MHC in our website www
dot Millennium MC dot com. Thank you all for listening,
and shout out to Marshawn. Remember to take care of
(39:32):
y'all mentors.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Go Broncos.
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