December 11, 2024 • 22 mins
In this podcast episode, I welcome Dan Allison, co-founder of The Exchange Group, and behavioral psychology expert, to discuss the science behind effective referral strategies.
This episode provides valuable insights into why traditional referral strategies fail and how to transform satisfied clients into active advocates. Dan’s proven approach, rooted in behavioral psychology and two decades of research, helps financial advisors unlock a repeatable process for building trust-driven relationships with both clients and Centers of Influence (COIs).
Dan's Journey: From Psychology to Referral Expert
- Early Business Success: Built and sold his first company by age 27, achieving an eight-figure exit.
- Industry Transition: A non-compete clause led him to explore the financial services industry through insurance wholesale operations.
- Research Development: Discovered that most advisors lacked effective referral strategies, leading to extensive focus group research.
Why Traditional Referral Strategies Fail
- Missed Opportunities: 81% of clients who think they’ve referred their advisor have simply shared contact information without follow-up.
- Overcoming Barriers: Dan explains how behavioral insights can help advisors coach clients to make effective introductions instead of relying on passive referrals.
Building Relationships with Centers of Influence (COIs)
- Understanding COI Hesitation: COIs, like CPAs, often hesitate to refer due to perceived risks, including reputational and financial concerns.
- Creating Value for COIs: Advisors must demonstrate their expertise, provide tailored resources, and build trust over time to foster reciprocal relationships.
- Strategic Engagement: Dan highlights the importance of asking COIs about their needs and challenges to create a collaborative foundation.
Leveraging Books as a Referral Tool
- Establishing Credibility: Authorship accelerates trust and positions advisors as experts in their field.
- Partnering with COIs: Co-authoring books or involving COIs in customized forwards fosters a sense of ownership and deepens the relationship.
Key Takeaways
- Focus on Introductions, Not Referrals: Replace passive “I gave your name to someone” moments with actionable introductions like email connections.
- Understand COI Motivations: Take the time to learn what COIs value and how to address their concerns.
- Build a Community: Dan’s SKOOL platform, The Exchange, provides a space for advisors to connect, share challenges, and access expert guidance.
Dan’s practical advice and innovative strategies provide a clear roadmap for advisors seeking to grow their practices through referrals. Whether you’re struggling to convert client satisfaction into advocacy or looking to strengthen relationships with COIs, this episode is packed with actionable insights.
About our guest: Dan Allison, co-founder of The Exchange Group, and behavioral psychology expert.
You can learn more about his work:
https://www.skool.com/exchange
dan@modelfa.com
About Your Host: Paul G. McManus is an accomplished author and expert in helping financial professionals grow their businesses. With over eight years of experience working exclusively with financial professionals, Paul has helped his clients generate tens of millions of dollars in fees and commissions.
Claim your free audiobook copy at: www.theshortbookformula.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
If you're like most advisors, I know you're caught
in a familiar trap.
Your clients love you, they'rehappy with your service, they
tell you how much value youbring to their lives, yet
somehow those glowingtestimonials rarely turn into
actual referrals.
You've heard all the usualadvice Just ask for referrals,
offer incentives, remind clientsyou're taking new business.
(00:26):
But when you try theseapproaches, they feel awkward
and forced, or worse, you getthe dreaded.
I'll keep you in mind or I gaveout your name, which almost
never leads to anything.
Our guest today proves there'sa better way.
Dan Allison has not only crackedthe code on why traditional
referral strategies fail, buthas developed a proven system
(00:47):
that transforms satisfiedclients into active advocates.
He's taken what many of usthought was impossible
generating consistent referralswithout awkward asks or damaging
client relationships and turnedit into a repeatable process.
And now he helps advisorsacross the country do the same.
Drawing from his uniquebackground in clinical and
(01:09):
behavioral psychology, dan hasbuilt Feedback Marketing Group
into the go-to resource foradvisors who want to understand
the psychology behind whyclients refer or don't.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Hey, paul, good seeing you, man.
I'm excited to have thisconversation.
Just so you know, inpreparation I was listening to
the episode that you did withMichael Kitsis.
(01:31):
I'd love to get your take Forme.
In the financial advisory space, michael Kitsis has built
himself into essentially the JoeRogan of podcasts for this
space.
It seems like all the topplayers, all the people that are
influential in the industry,end up on his show.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Michael had reached out about being on his podcast.
I'd heard of Michael, obviously, but I stay busy like traveling
and speaking.
And I was on his podcast and Ihad no clue the reach Michael
has.
And in March I was in Asia,australia, new Zealand and did
12 speeches throughout thosecountries.
Every single event I hadmultiple advisors during kind of
(02:08):
the break, say hey, I heard youon Kitsis podcast.
I was like this guy's a rockstar.
I reached out to him.
I was like dude, I can't getaway from you, everybody knows
you.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm just impressed by what he's accomplished and I'm
going to actually be on hispodcast next month.
I'm also anticipating what yousaid, which is suddenly it's I
go from wherever I'm at now tosuddenly people being that much
more aware of what I do.
So we met recently online whichis part of a school community
called the Exchange, and can youshare just a little bit about I
(02:37):
don't know that everyone knowswhat school is or what the
Exchange is and maybe use thatas the starting point for our
conversation?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I didn't know what school was until about three
months ago, I knew what schoolwas.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It's a school with a K, not a C, right.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I had probably the last 20 years and I know
we'll get into some of thebackground, but I've been lucky
to keynote conventions all overthe world for the last 20 years.
So I'm on airplanes 100 to 200times a year.
The firms that hire me eitherhold big conventions or they'll
hire me for private engagements,like we want you to come for
the day and just coach our firmon how to implement this process
(03:13):
to get a lot more referrals.
And it always bothered me that95% of the people in the
audience they can't write acheck for 10, 20,000 bucks just
to get help.
But I never had any kind ofproducts I sold.
I always saw those guys whosell from stage and I was like,
ah, I don't want to be one ofthose guys.
But then I realized there's alot of them that wanted more
knowledge, they wanted detail.
(03:34):
Like I want to implement thisstuff, not just hear about it.
So COVID happened.
Obviously, convention shut down.
I decided now's the time tobuild out a platform where I can
get the intellectual capitalthat I've built over the years
and create a platform that'saffordable for advisors who want
to grow, to access everythingand implement.
And ideally I wanted one wherethey can communicate directly
(03:54):
with me when they have questionsand I can give detailed
responses, almost like a digitalretainer where ask me anything
you want, anytime you want.
I decided, if I'm going tolaunch it, I want it to be more
well-rounded, because a lot oftimes I'm coaching firms and
they're like hey, we have someyounger advisors who don't have
a big client base to getreferrals from.
How do they prospect, how dothey market?
(04:15):
And I'd be like I don't know,I'm the expert once you already
have a client base.
I decided to pull in some of myfavorite coaches and say look,
I want to build this platformout and ultimately what it'll
become is the hub for coacheswho have good content from
everything from how do youprospect from the beginning all
the way to creating the ravingfans and really getting a lot of
(04:35):
referrals, and then everythingin between efficiency technology
.
I wanted to create thiscommunity where advisors felt
they had access to expertsdirectly.
We have multiple of them, butthey also interact with each
other, because nobody's a bettercoach than somebody who's 10
years ahead of you in theindustry and has already been
where you're at.
We launched the platform calledthe Exchange it's on school a
(04:59):
platform that allows companieslike mine who want to create
this environment.
They've already done the heavylifting.
So you plug in, you customizeit and it has all the functions
that you need.
So we launched the exchange.
Our soft launch was 45 days ago, I believe, right around there.
We were hoping to get 50 to 100advisors that first month and
we crossed, I believe, 500 inthe first 10 days on six
(05:22):
continents.
So we're still waiting forAntarctica somebody from there
to be on there, and we are justnow in the phase 10 days on six
continents.
So we're still waiting forAntarctica from there to be on
there and we are just now in thephase of actually launching to
the public officially.
We wanted people interactingand using it to give us feedback
, tweak anything we needed to,and we're really proud of where
it's at today already.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I'm in there myself and it's a fantastic platform,
and just for our audience.
The way that I think aboutschool with a K so it's S-K-O-L
which seems to be becomingincreasingly popular as a
platform for these things isthat probably five years ago,
people would typically create agroup and they would do it
inside of Facebook, and so you'dhave a Facebook group.
Some are free, some are paidmemberships, but if you're
(06:00):
familiar with a Facebook group,it's similar in that way, but
it's outside of Facebook.
It's its own platform.
Platforms like school exist sothat you can actually go there
and do what you want to dowithout all the distractions.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
That's why we built it, paul.
We wanted an environment numberone where if you post something
that's valuable or you share it, it's not just out there in the
ethos and anybody has access toit.
It's exclusive to the peoplethat paid to get in there.
But also, like you said, Iwanted to eliminate the
distractions.
People are in the platform atthe exchange.
They're there to contribute,consume a course, share a
(06:33):
success story.
I wanted it to be that, so weput it behind the paywall.
It's only 99 bucks a month.
People get a free trial forseven days so they can dig
around and if they like it, theystay.
I wanted to find a way forpeople to have that same support
on demand without the big fee.
I think you've seen I'm in thecommunity every day.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
What impresses me so much is that I've been a part of
a number of groups over theyears and typically when you
have the guru they're there tosell the platform and then you
join.
But it's rare that you havesomeone like yourself as active
as I see you.
You're not in there giving likelittle short answers or
pointing to resources.
From what I can tell, you'relegitimately deep, diving into
(07:13):
specific questions that peopleask, and you do so very
routinely.
I've just been amazed andimpressed by both you and your
partners that run it and howmuch value you actually provide.
I guess it's called exchangefor a reason.
From my experience again, I'vebeen in a lot of these groups.
It really is one of the bestones that I've seen so far.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
The way I looked at it, paul, was the tagline is
exchange your challenges forsolutions.
There's hours and hours of highquality video on a variety of
topics that you can learnthrough the courses.
The community, to me, is whypeople stay that kind of
interaction.
But selfishly being in thecommunity and reading what you
all post and how you share witheach other the resources I learn
(07:55):
every time I'm in there, thatmakes me more valuable.
It fosters learning for me in acontrolled environment also, so
it's like everybody wins.
Whether you're sharing anexperience that makes you feel
good.
We got a multi-billion dollarRIA giving advice to a guy who's
been in the industry ninemonths and has seven clients.
It's like the guy sharing theadvice it makes him nostalgic
(08:18):
about when he was there, right,and the guy that nine months in
he couldn't pay that guy tocoach him.
It's like facilitating.
That is really rewarding foranybody who wants to learn about
that.
It's just skolcom forward slashexchange so people can check
that out.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I would love, just for our audience, if this is the
first time that they're gettingto know you, let's take a step
back and tell us about where youstarted and how you got into
the role that you are today.
We have in common is that youand I both serve the financial
services industry and financialadvisors, but neither of us are
financial advisors.
Right, I'll let you tell thestory.
But you've been doing this forso long.
Large companies pay you to goand speak and train their people
(08:57):
.
I'm very impressed with that.
Tell us your story.
What got you into this industry?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I've been an entrepreneur my whole life I've
been an entrepreneur.
My whole life I've owned.
My first company was in theclinical and behavioral
psychology, the mental healthspace.
But I never went on to get mydoctorate and become a
psychologist.
I owned a real estate andmortgage banking company, after
that an insurance wholesalecompany.
I never got a real estatelicense or a life insurance
(09:21):
license.
I remember somebody when I wasacquiring the life insurance
company saying it's a45-year-old company that I
bought and the senior staff saidwhat qualifies you to run this
company?
You don't even have a lifeinsurance license.
And I remember the meeting andI said, with all due respect,
around this table is 400 yearsof life insurance knowledge.
The reason the company's notsucceeding is not life insurance
(09:44):
knowledge, it'sentrepreneurship.
It not succeeding is not lifeinsurance knowledge, it's
entrepreneurial ship, it'svision, it's strategy execution.
I don't care if you're sellinglife insurance or hot dogs.
95% of it is the same and 5% isproduct knowledge.
I've always looked as being anentrepreneur.
Skill sets are transferable aslong as you're passionate about
what you're doing.
So my background originallywent to college, undergrad and
(10:05):
grad school for clinicalpsychology.
I started a company during gradschool that had facilities for
kids with serious mental healthissues.
So, schizophrenia, bipolardisorder.
My partner and I launched thecompany with a $10,000 line of
credit.
We were dead broke back then.
We were employee number one andnumber two and within five
years we had grown the company.
(10:26):
I think we at that time had 600and some employees, 70, plus
facilities, and the 800 poundgorilla of the industry came by
and said we want you guys to goaway, so we're going to write a
big check and buy this thing.
So at 27 years old I had myfirst eight figure exit Awesome,
like first time out lightningin a bottle.
I loved it, but about a monthafter I sold it I realized what
(10:48):
a non-compete clause actuallymeans.
I signed a five-year deal thatin no way, shape or form, could
I engage in the mental healthfield.
My plan was I'll find somethingto do for five years and then
I'll use their money to startanother company and compete with
them.
I found the finance industry andnever went back.
I bought an insurance,wholesale operation and
independent financial advisorswere the customer of that
(11:11):
company and it had an advisor,but I had never seen behind the
curtain of what it's like to beone.
I thought it had to be an easyprofession In the mental health
field.
You line up a thousand people.
Maybe one of them needs yourhelp.
In the finance industry, Ithought you line up a thousand
people.
They all need help with money.
So you got to have a parkinglot full of prospects at eight
(11:32):
in the morning waiting for youroffice.
I had no clue how hard it was.
So as I started to see that, Isaw that the majority of
advisors' referrals were theprimary way they wanted to grow.
But when I would push them forwhat's your strategy for doing
it, like, how do you make itconsistent, a steady flow?
I rarely got any answer.
(11:53):
Most of them were wish, hopeand pray that if I just give
them a good experience it'llhappen.
It does, but very unpredictablyand not nearly as much as it
could.
So back then I decided referringto behavior like anything else.
That's my core competency.
I'm going to start researchingthe behavior of referring.
So I began back then conductingfocus groups with affluent and
(12:17):
mass affluent clients tounderstand why they refer, why
they don't, when they do it, howdo they do it.
I knew if I could understandthe motivations and the
behaviors, I could help coachour advisors on how to overcome
that challenge and unlock morereferrals.
So, 21 years later, we'veinterviewed thousands of clients
COIs, lawyers, cpas all overthe world about referral
(12:41):
behavior, and then we coachadvisors through a platform and
a system for how do you engagethese clients in the right way
so referrals occur?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
frequently and consistently.
It's interesting I don't thinkthat people always appreciate,
but just 20 years ago or howeverlong ago, it was transactional
right and so the referral riskwas much lower and so why not go
for it, where today thereferral risk is much higher and
I think people are reallyhesitant?
I'd like to focus in goingforward in our conversation in
(13:10):
two areas that are of mostinterest to me and, by extension
, I think, our listeners.
First is that there's really, Iwould say, two types of
referrals.
There's the client referral,but then there's the COI
referral, and a lot of peopletalk about the client referral.
I'd like to shift gears intothat COI referral.
So, for example, financialadvisor, typically they're told
and think about COIs, and to methe benefit of that, of course,
(13:37):
is I'd rather get 10, 20, 50introductions and referrals from
a trusted source than I wouldjust one by one.
It's a leverage.
It saves a lot of time.
At the same time, I think,especially when trying to create
CPAs or anyone else as thoseCOIs, I think if people are
generally bad at the one-to-oneclient referral, they're even
worse at the center of influencereferral.
So share with us your thoughts,wisdom, et cetera on what you
see when it comes to that COIreferral.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, but it's funny, paul, I, literally before I
hopped on your pod, I was on acall with one of my long-term
retainer clients.
He's the coach though, but itwas CEO.
They manage 35 billion ofassets, so it's not a small firm
.
They're funded by privateequity and their target is the
CPA space regional and they wantto be the number one go-to
(14:20):
resource in the COI market,specifically CPAs.
They have a hundred advisorsand I coach them in teams and I
gave him the summary that you're.
In theory, your messaging isgood, we are the number one
trusted whatever for CPAs, butthe execution is awful because
they're just running aroundtalking to CPAs, doing lunch and
(14:41):
learns.
And when I ask, when you wentinto the meeting, what was your
intention and your desiredengagement and outcome?
How do you know if it wassuccessful?
And now that you've done themeeting, what is the next step?
And every time it's like Idon't know.
I think we had a good lunch andI'll follow up.
So I'll tell you what COIs.
(15:02):
When we interview all theclients we've interviewed, I
always ask why don't you referyour advisor to more people?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I just want to underscore that for our audience
is that?
One of the things I think is sounique about your approach is
that most of us come from hey,this is my experience.
Hey, maybe I've trained orcoached a handful of people and
this is what I'm seeing butyou've literally not only the
scale of the people that you'veworked with, but also the
approach of actually doing focusgroups.
Think about it in the mostcompetitive arenas that exist
today, say politics, they spenda lot of money on focus groups
(15:27):
because they need to get thatmessaging right and it can save
them a lot of time and trial anderror.
And so I just wanted tounderscore that your approach is
really backed by a lot ofresearch, I would say primarily
in the area of focus groups.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Absolutely, and I tell advisors that these aren't
my opinions.
I'm just reporting back.
I'm told by the people you wantto help right the kind of
clients you want to refer.
All I do is ask them.
My company was called FeedbackMarketing Group.
The whole concept is, if I wantto market my services to a
community of people that willfind me valuable and
irreplaceable whether that'sCOIs or clients getting their
(16:04):
feedback on how to do thateffectively is the first step.
When I can tell they're likelove the advisor.
At some point I will ask whydon't you refer your advisor to
more people?
And when it's a client, thenumber one response is some
variation of they don't talkabout it.
They've never asked about it.
Man, my advisor is really busy,I'm not sure they're even
taking new clients.
(16:24):
50% of the clients we interviewaren't even aware if their
advisor has capacity to helpmore clients.
Think about that.
Those aren't going to beeffective advocates.
They don't even know for sure.
When they see the advisor andsay how's business, the
advisor's like ah, it's crazy,man, I'm really busy.
And they give this persona ofcapacity.
When I move to the COI space andask that same question by a
(16:48):
mile, the answer is somevariation of risk they feel
making a confidentrecommendation to a client who's
really important to them.
You need to go see this advisorto get a resolution to this
problem.
They find a tremendous amountof risk in doing that Reputation
risk, monetary risk.
If my client gets mad enoughthat they leave, I could lose it
.
Most of them are very hesitantto open those floodgates.
(17:11):
They're very protective of thatclient base.
What I look at with the COIspace is like you said, paul, if
you can establish this greatreciprocal relationship, where
you refer a CPA and they referback.
Without a doubt, they are thebest market for high quality
referrals.
The problem is, most advisorsthink they have a reciprocal
(17:34):
relationship.
Yeah, I got this CPA and, man,I sent him 10 clients last year.
I've gotten one client in thelast three years.
Right, they have this falseexpectation of reciprocity and
they don't know what's wrong.
And so, again going to thefeedback marketing concept, if I
want to bring value to a COI,enough that they say I want you
(17:55):
to talk to my clients the COIhas got to teach me how to do.
I need to understand how do youdefine value when it comes to a
collaborative relationship withan advisor and how do you
define risk when you think aboutconfidently endorsing an
advisor or wealth managementfirm to your client.
What does that feel like?
What has been your pastexperience?
(18:16):
Because that CPA is bringingwith them every stereotype,
every experience, every good,bad and ugly.
And I need to understand thosethings if I'm going to try to
bring value to them and lowerrisk.
And too many advisors want toget in front of a COI, present
their value prop and think thatCOI is going to be like where
you been my whole life.
Here's all my clients Ain'tgoing to happen.
(18:37):
It's a patient process thatnormally starts with bringing
value to the COI for a period oftime in the form of education
resources, making them smarterin areas they need to be smarter
.
To be more valuable to theirclients, you have to demonstrate
competency expertise.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
One of my favorite strategies and just the context
is that my company helpsadvisors write and publish books
, and then the question isalways okay, I wrote the book,
now what?
I want someone other than mymom to read the book.
I've been focused on developingand helping advisors execute
just a number of strategies thatthey can take advantage, but I
think probably currently one ofmy favorite ones is that when
(19:17):
they have these COIrelationships, is to leverage
the book as a tool.
And I'll give you a concreteexample.
I have one client in mind.
His firm manages upwards 10plus billion in assets under
management.
He has a hundred advisors.
They do really well when itcomes to CPA relationships, so
they already have the CPAs inplace.
What we're doing together isthat we're offering the CPA the
(19:40):
opportunity to write a customforward for the book.
We're private printing this,meaning that you're not going to
go to Amazon and find 50 copiesof the book, but instead it's
private printed, so you decideselectively who it goes out to.
But what I'm seeing happening,which I'm just thrilled by, is
that he's getting the buy-infrom the CPA.
So they're doing two things.
One, they're writing a customforward for the book so they
(20:02):
have ownership of it.
So now it's not just, hey, myadvice, this person's book, but
now it's our book, which is ahuge mind shift change.
The second thing is that nowthey're invested in the process,
so actually they're proactivelysending out a letter and a copy
of the book to their entireclient base, or at least the
segment that it relates to, andsaying, hey, essentially I wrote
(20:22):
the forward on this book, thisis the wealth management firm
that I use, I recommend them,etc.
In my mind, what you're gettingis you're getting that trust, I
would almost say squared,because authorship creates a lot
of trust.
It accelerates the speed oftrust, as I like to say.
Now, when you have a COIsending out this email to their
existing clients who alreadytrust them, that's where you're
getting this trust squared andthe results have been fantastic.
(20:45):
I want to get your feedback andthoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I think having a book is instant credibility period
If you think about whether it'sa COI or a client trying to
refer somebody to you.
Back in the old days it wasgive a business card or whatever
right.
But if you're looking at waysto establish credibility before
you're able to meet a prospect,or you have a prospect coming in
(21:07):
and you want to do a littlework to establish some
credibility and trust beforehand, there is nothing cooler than
being able to say, hey, I'mgoing to send you a copy of my
book.
Or hey, I'm going to email myadvisor and connect you.
Here's a copy of their book.
This will give you an idea ofsome of the things they talk
about and their expertise inthis area.
It's instant credibility.
(21:27):
If you're trying to form arelationship with a COI that
does not want to grow theirbusiness, is not trying to
improve and become smarter andmore valuable, you are wasting
your time and there are a lot ofCPAs that are at capacity.
They don't want more clients.
So what is in it for them totake any risk or recommend to
(21:48):
you?
So that, to me, is what'sunique about COIs is you're a
prospect for them also.
So I always start there andwe've got a process built out
for how do you structure thatmeeting?
And I structure it just bysaying look, I told you we come
across clients all the time thatneed support in your space and
I just want to learn more aboutyour firm, the background, all
the different things you helppeople with.
(22:09):
If there was one or two areasthat you really love to work in.
What are those areas?
Who's your target market?
What kind of challenges yourclients typically have?
I'm trying to learn to vet themfor my clients.
Also, they're telling me of allthe things that I help people
with.
Where should I most likely focusmy time to talk?
(22:30):
So if they're talking about wehelp senior citizens, I'm not
going to be sharing my strategyfor helping budding
entrepreneurs, but if they're inthe business market and they
work with entrepreneurs and thatreally is their ideal client
profile, I'm going to focus onthat part of what I do and how
we normally solve the challengesthere.
So to me, it starts withfeedback and learning about them
(22:51):
talking about us.
With a next action of, I wouldlike to learn more about that
one specific service.
I have a lot of clients thatneed help in that area and I
think I would be better if I wassmarter in that area, and is
there an area that we work inthat you would like to dive
deeper into?
So my initial meeting, myobjective, is a second meeting
(23:13):
that's more laser, focused onour core competencies, and we're
like teaching one another, andthe goal is building trust,
leaving each meeting with thenext step already identified of
what I want to have happen.
That's the beginning of whatwill evolve into a solid COI
relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Just wanted to finish off by asking you two questions
.
Is there any question that Ihaven't asked you that you'd
like to share?
And finally, where can peoplereach?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
out to you, I think.
Paul.
Number one, thanks for the time.
Number two, I love what you'redoing with the books.
I actually met somebody who dida book for named Anton.
Yeah, sharp guy Loved gettingto know him.
He's got a fascinating companyin the COI connection space with
advisors.
He was really cool to talk to.
But one of the things that Ithink your listeners if they're
(23:57):
listening at this point, it'sbecause referrals are something
they maybe struggle with or wantto get better at.
I just want to give them kindof one takeaway, one thing that
I see consistently that if theycan handle better, they can move
the needle tomorrow.
Right, it's one thing theycould implement our whole
process and get all the coachingand that I mentioned that when
we've done research ourselves.
(24:18):
But then we also partner withDimensional Funds, which is a
global fund company who doesmassive research around the
world and a variety of things.
So we find that when 98% ofclients anywhere from 90 to 98,
depending on the study say thatthey're willing to refer an
advisor, but in their researchover the last eight years and
we've participated every year inwriting questions for their
(24:40):
studies they find that 51% ofclients think they have referred
their advisor to somebody atleast one new client in the last
12 months.
51%, and more than 30% thinkthey referred more than one.
Think about the metrics If Ihave a hundred clients minimum,
I should get 51 referrals thisyear.
Nobody has those metrics right.
(25:01):
What we find the actual problemthere is those people, 81% of
the time, are giving theadvisors contact information.
Hey, you got to call my guy,john.
Here's his number.
Sometimes they never even telltheir advisor.
They did that Every now andthen.
Hey, by the way, I gave yourname to someone the other day.
So here's what I'd loveadvisors to think about.
I always tell them all thegrowth that you would like to
(25:24):
achieve in your business alreadyhappened last year, just not
effectively.
If you could rope in all thetimes that a client gave your
name to somebody and thosepeople became clients, you would
never hire me.
So it's not an issue ofconvincing clients who don't
want to refer or think money isprivate.
Trying to objection, handlethem into referring.
(25:45):
That's not the issue.
It's let's identify the peoplethat are willing and even trying
, and let's make them moreeffective at what they're trying
to do, which this is what Iwant your listeners to
understand.
Think about the most popularmethods of talking about
referrals.
From back in the day, I getpaid in two ways.
The greatest compliment youcould give me as a referral
don't keep me a secret.
(26:05):
When I interview clients, weask have you ever referred
anybody?
And when they say yes, we askcan we talk about?
The last person that youreferred to?
Your advisor Is my brother.
Here was the situation.
I'll ask them why did you do it?
Because it's risky.
If something went wrong thatcould impact your relationship
with your brother, why'd youtake that risk?
21 years, I've never had aclient look at me and say
(26:26):
because my advisor gets paid intwo ways.
I wanted to compliment myadvisor.
They told me don't keep them asecret, never, and I'm never
going to.
A client perspective is simple.
If I'm the kind of person thatenjoys being helpful to other
people and somebody I care aboutneeds help, I take action.
I want to be helpful.
The problem there is they do soin a way that doesn't lead to
(26:49):
the person they care aboutgetting help.
I would encourage yourlisteners be prepared for the
moment when a client says I gaveyour name to someone the other
day and I have handled it.
The exact same way in everysingle industry I've been in
Happens to me all the time.
Gave your name to someone theother day, dan.
They're going to call you.
All I do is say I appreciatethat.
Can we talk about it for aminute?
And they always say sure, likethey're confused, like what?
(27:12):
Yeah, I say I'm assuming youdid that because you think they
might need some help or benefitfrom some advice or some
guidance.
Is that accurate?
I always ask that questionbecause, paul, what do 100 out
of 100 people say yes?
They always say yeah, they wentthrough this and I was telling
them about you.
All I do is say the problemwith that is they don't know and
trust us the way that you do.
(27:32):
As a result of that, unlessthere's something very urgent
going on, they're unlikely toactually get help.
So, because that was your reasonfor doing it, can we just talk
about a comfortable way to teeup an introduction, we increase
the likelihood they get somehelp.
Could be an email that we'reall cc'd on, based on your
relationship.
Whatever's comfortable for youI cannot tell you how many times
(27:54):
I gave your name out turns intooh yeah, why don't we just send
them an email and, hey, I couldwrite it for you if you want?
Save you the time.
Oh, that'd be great BoomConnection, introduction, new
client.
If we could stop the 80% ofclients that are not only
willing to refer but trying torefer and coach them on how to
effectively help people, wewouldn't need to hire referral
coaches because the hard part'salready done and the good thing
(28:17):
is already happening.
We got to rope them in, sohopefully that's helpful to your
listeners.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I've taught referrals and how to do it and ultimately
, to me, that's really one ofthe best ways is to get an
introduction.
I prefer the word introductionto referral because it's not as
intimidating, but ultimately Ineed the person to introduce me
in a way that, a I'm aware of itbut, B I have the ability to
follow up, and what I love aboutthe email is just a very low
(28:43):
risk.
It's just an introduction, butit allows the person being
referred to to follow up,whereas what you said before is
that if it's simply oh, I gavesomeone your name, you're right.
Chances are they're not goingto take any action for the
reasons that you stated.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And where people can find me.
It's funny because I was sodamn busy speaking for so many
years I never even had a webpresence or LinkedIn accounts or
anything.
So right now I would encouragepeople to go to schoolcom
forward slash exchange and checkthat out.
People can email me questions,dan, at modelfacom, and inquire
about any kind of services.
(29:16):
Very soon we're going to berelaunching our entire brand.
We've been rebuilding for abouta year and a half.
Now that the exchange is live,we're building the whole brand
around it, but those are thebest places to find me Very cool
.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Dan, thank you for your time.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
These are things that I'mgenuinely interested in.
I love getting your feedback,just really as a true expert in
the space, so I enjoy theconversation.
I hope our listeners enjoy theconversation and I appreciate
your time today.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Congrats on what you got going on, paul.
It's a cool service, thank you.
If you're like most advisors, I know you're caught
in a familiar trap.
Your clients love you, they'rehappy with your service, they
tell you how much value youbring to their lives, yet
somehow those glowingtestimonials rarely turn into
actual referrals.
You've heard all the usualadvice Just ask for referrals,
offer incentives, remind clientsyou're taking new business.
(00:26):
But when you try theseapproaches, they feel awkward
and forced, or worse, you getthe dreaded.
I'll keep you in mind or I gaveout your name, which almost
never leads to anything.
Our guest today proves there'sa better way.
Dan Allison has not only crackedthe code on why traditional
referral strategies fail, buthas developed a proven system
(00:47):
that transforms satisfiedclients into active advocates.
He's taken what many of usthought was impossible
generating consistent referralswithout awkward asks or damaging
client relationships and turnedit into a repeatable process.
And now he helps advisorsacross the country do the same.
Drawing from his uniquebackground in clinical and
(01:09):
behavioral psychology, dan hasbuilt Feedback Marketing Group
into the go-to resource foradvisors who want to understand
the psychology behind whyclients refer or don't.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Hey, paul, good seeing you, man.
I'm excited to have thisconversation.
Just so you know, inpreparation I was listening to
the episode that you did withMichael Kitsis.
(01:31):
I'd love to get your take Forme.
In the financial advisory space, michael Kitsis has built
himself into essentially the JoeRogan of podcasts for this
space.
It seems like all the topplayers, all the people that are
influential in the industry,end up on his show.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Michael had reached out about being on his podcast.
I'd heard of Michael, obviously, but I stay busy like traveling
and speaking.
And I was on his podcast and Ihad no clue the reach Michael
has.
And in March I was in Asia,australia, new Zealand and did
12 speeches throughout thosecountries.
Every single event I hadmultiple advisors during kind of
(02:08):
the break, say hey, I heard youon Kitsis podcast.
I was like this guy's a rockstar.
I reached out to him.
I was like dude, I can't getaway from you, everybody knows
you.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm just impressed by what he's accomplished and I'm
going to actually be on hispodcast next month.
I'm also anticipating what yousaid, which is suddenly it's I
go from wherever I'm at now tosuddenly people being that much
more aware of what I do.
So we met recently online whichis part of a school community
called the Exchange, and can youshare just a little bit about I
(02:37):
don't know that everyone knowswhat school is or what the
Exchange is and maybe use thatas the starting point for our
conversation?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I didn't know what school was until about three
months ago, I knew what schoolwas.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It's a school with a K, not a C, right.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I had probably the last 20 years and I know
we'll get into some of thebackground, but I've been lucky
to keynote conventions all overthe world for the last 20 years.
So I'm on airplanes 100 to 200times a year.
The firms that hire me eitherhold big conventions or they'll
hire me for private engagements,like we want you to come for
the day and just coach our firmon how to implement this process
(03:13):
to get a lot more referrals.
And it always bothered me that95% of the people in the
audience they can't write acheck for 10, 20,000 bucks just
to get help.
But I never had any kind ofproducts I sold.
I always saw those guys whosell from stage and I was like,
ah, I don't want to be one ofthose guys.
But then I realized there's alot of them that wanted more
knowledge, they wanted detail.
(03:34):
Like I want to implement thisstuff, not just hear about it.
So COVID happened.
Obviously, convention shut down.
I decided now's the time tobuild out a platform where I can
get the intellectual capitalthat I've built over the years
and create a platform that'saffordable for advisors who want
to grow, to access everythingand implement.
And ideally I wanted one wherethey can communicate directly
(03:54):
with me when they have questionsand I can give detailed
responses, almost like a digitalretainer where ask me anything
you want, anytime you want.
I decided, if I'm going tolaunch it, I want it to be more
well-rounded, because a lot oftimes I'm coaching firms and
they're like hey, we have someyounger advisors who don't have
a big client base to getreferrals from.
How do they prospect, how dothey market?
(04:15):
And I'd be like I don't know,I'm the expert once you already
have a client base.
I decided to pull in some of myfavorite coaches and say look,
I want to build this platformout and ultimately what it'll
become is the hub for coacheswho have good content from
everything from how do youprospect from the beginning all
the way to creating the ravingfans and really getting a lot of
(04:35):
referrals, and then everythingin between efficiency technology
.
I wanted to create thiscommunity where advisors felt
they had access to expertsdirectly.
We have multiple of them, butthey also interact with each
other, because nobody's a bettercoach than somebody who's 10
years ahead of you in theindustry and has already been
where you're at.
We launched the platform calledthe Exchange it's on school a
(04:59):
platform that allows companieslike mine who want to create
this environment.
They've already done the heavylifting.
So you plug in, you customizeit and it has all the functions
that you need.
So we launched the exchange.
Our soft launch was 45 days ago, I believe, right around there.
We were hoping to get 50 to 100advisors that first month and
we crossed, I believe, 500 inthe first 10 days on six
(05:22):
continents.
So we're still waiting forAntarctica somebody from there
to be on there, and we are justnow in the phase 10 days on six
continents.
So we're still waiting forAntarctica from there to be on
there and we are just now in thephase of actually launching to
the public officially.
We wanted people interactingand using it to give us feedback
, tweak anything we needed to,and we're really proud of where
it's at today already.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I'm in there myself and it's a fantastic platform,
and just for our audience.
The way that I think aboutschool with a K so it's S-K-O-L
which seems to be becomingincreasingly popular as a
platform for these things isthat probably five years ago,
people would typically create agroup and they would do it
inside of Facebook, and so you'dhave a Facebook group.
Some are free, some are paidmemberships, but if you're
(06:00):
familiar with a Facebook group,it's similar in that way, but
it's outside of Facebook.
It's its own platform.
Platforms like school exist sothat you can actually go there
and do what you want to dowithout all the distractions.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
That's why we built it, paul.
We wanted an environment numberone where if you post something
that's valuable or you share it, it's not just out there in the
ethos and anybody has access toit.
It's exclusive to the peoplethat paid to get in there.
But also, like you said, Iwanted to eliminate the
distractions.
People are in the platform atthe exchange.
They're there to contribute,consume a course, share a
(06:33):
success story.
I wanted it to be that, so weput it behind the paywall.
It's only 99 bucks a month.
People get a free trial forseven days so they can dig
around and if they like it, theystay.
I wanted to find a way forpeople to have that same support
on demand without the big fee.
I think you've seen I'm in thecommunity every day.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
What impresses me so much is that I've been a part of
a number of groups over theyears and typically when you
have the guru they're there tosell the platform and then you
join.
But it's rare that you havesomeone like yourself as active
as I see you.
You're not in there giving likelittle short answers or
pointing to resources.
From what I can tell, you'relegitimately deep, diving into
(07:13):
specific questions that peopleask, and you do so very
routinely.
I've just been amazed andimpressed by both you and your
partners that run it and howmuch value you actually provide.
I guess it's called exchangefor a reason.
From my experience again, I'vebeen in a lot of these groups.
It really is one of the bestones that I've seen so far.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
The way I looked at it, paul, was the tagline is
exchange your challenges forsolutions.
There's hours and hours of highquality video on a variety of
topics that you can learnthrough the courses.
The community, to me, is whypeople stay that kind of
interaction.
But selfishly being in thecommunity and reading what you
all post and how you share witheach other the resources I learn
(07:55):
every time I'm in there, thatmakes me more valuable.
It fosters learning for me in acontrolled environment also, so
it's like everybody wins.
Whether you're sharing anexperience that makes you feel
good.
We got a multi-billion dollarRIA giving advice to a guy who's
been in the industry ninemonths and has seven clients.
It's like the guy sharing theadvice it makes him nostalgic
(08:18):
about when he was there, right,and the guy that nine months in
he couldn't pay that guy tocoach him.
It's like facilitating.
That is really rewarding foranybody who wants to learn about
that.
It's just skolcom forward slashexchange so people can check
that out.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I would love, just for our audience, if this is the
first time that they're gettingto know you, let's take a step
back and tell us about where youstarted and how you got into
the role that you are today.
We have in common is that youand I both serve the financial
services industry and financialadvisors, but neither of us are
financial advisors.
Right, I'll let you tell thestory.
But you've been doing this forso long.
Large companies pay you to goand speak and train their people
(08:57):
.
I'm very impressed with that.
Tell us your story.
What got you into this industry?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I've been an entrepreneur my whole life I've
been an entrepreneur.
My whole life I've owned.
My first company was in theclinical and behavioral
psychology, the mental healthspace.
But I never went on to get mydoctorate and become a
psychologist.
I owned a real estate andmortgage banking company, after
that an insurance wholesalecompany.
I never got a real estatelicense or a life insurance
(09:21):
license.
I remember somebody when I wasacquiring the life insurance
company saying it's a45-year-old company that I
bought and the senior staff saidwhat qualifies you to run this
company?
You don't even have a lifeinsurance license.
And I remember the meeting andI said, with all due respect,
around this table is 400 yearsof life insurance knowledge.
The reason the company's notsucceeding is not life insurance
(09:44):
knowledge, it'sentrepreneurship.
It not succeeding is not lifeinsurance knowledge, it's
entrepreneurial ship, it'svision, it's strategy execution.
I don't care if you're sellinglife insurance or hot dogs.
95% of it is the same and 5% isproduct knowledge.
I've always looked as being anentrepreneur.
Skill sets are transferable aslong as you're passionate about
what you're doing.
So my background originallywent to college, undergrad and
(10:05):
grad school for clinicalpsychology.
I started a company during gradschool that had facilities for
kids with serious mental healthissues.
So, schizophrenia, bipolardisorder.
My partner and I launched thecompany with a $10,000 line of
credit.
We were dead broke back then.
We were employee number one andnumber two and within five
years we had grown the company.
(10:26):
I think we at that time had 600and some employees, 70, plus
facilities, and the 800 poundgorilla of the industry came by
and said we want you guys to goaway, so we're going to write a
big check and buy this thing.
So at 27 years old I had myfirst eight figure exit Awesome,
like first time out lightningin a bottle.
I loved it, but about a monthafter I sold it I realized what
(10:48):
a non-compete clause actuallymeans.
I signed a five-year deal thatin no way, shape or form, could
I engage in the mental healthfield.
My plan was I'll find somethingto do for five years and then
I'll use their money to startanother company and compete with
them.
I found the finance industry andnever went back.
I bought an insurance,wholesale operation and
independent financial advisorswere the customer of that
(11:11):
company and it had an advisor,but I had never seen behind the
curtain of what it's like to beone.
I thought it had to be an easyprofession In the mental health
field.
You line up a thousand people.
Maybe one of them needs yourhelp.
In the finance industry, Ithought you line up a thousand
people.
They all need help with money.
So you got to have a parkinglot full of prospects at eight
(11:32):
in the morning waiting for youroffice.
I had no clue how hard it was.
So as I started to see that, Isaw that the majority of
advisors' referrals were theprimary way they wanted to grow.
But when I would push them forwhat's your strategy for doing
it, like, how do you make itconsistent, a steady flow?
I rarely got any answer.
(11:53):
Most of them were wish, hopeand pray that if I just give
them a good experience it'llhappen.
It does, but very unpredictablyand not nearly as much as it
could.
So back then I decided referringto behavior like anything else.
That's my core competency.
I'm going to start researchingthe behavior of referring.
So I began back then conductingfocus groups with affluent and
(12:17):
mass affluent clients tounderstand why they refer, why
they don't, when they do it, howdo they do it.
I knew if I could understandthe motivations and the
behaviors, I could help coachour advisors on how to overcome
that challenge and unlock morereferrals.
So, 21 years later, we'veinterviewed thousands of clients
COIs, lawyers, cpas all overthe world about referral
(12:41):
behavior, and then we coachadvisors through a platform and
a system for how do you engagethese clients in the right way
so referrals occur?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
frequently and consistently.
It's interesting I don't thinkthat people always appreciate,
but just 20 years ago or howeverlong ago, it was transactional
right and so the referral riskwas much lower and so why not go
for it, where today thereferral risk is much higher and
I think people are reallyhesitant?
I'd like to focus in goingforward in our conversation in
(13:10):
two areas that are of mostinterest to me and, by extension
, I think, our listeners.
First is that there's really, Iwould say, two types of
referrals.
There's the client referral,but then there's the COI
referral, and a lot of peopletalk about the client referral.
I'd like to shift gears intothat COI referral.
So, for example, financialadvisor, typically they're told
and think about COIs, and to methe benefit of that, of course,
(13:37):
is I'd rather get 10, 20, 50introductions and referrals from
a trusted source than I wouldjust one by one.
It's a leverage.
It saves a lot of time.
At the same time, I think,especially when trying to create
CPAs or anyone else as thoseCOIs, I think if people are
generally bad at the one-to-oneclient referral, they're even
worse at the center of influencereferral.
So share with us your thoughts,wisdom, et cetera on what you
see when it comes to that COIreferral.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, but it's funny, paul, I, literally before I
hopped on your pod, I was on acall with one of my long-term
retainer clients.
He's the coach though, but itwas CEO.
They manage 35 billion ofassets, so it's not a small firm
.
They're funded by privateequity and their target is the
CPA space regional and they wantto be the number one go-to
(14:20):
resource in the COI market,specifically CPAs.
They have a hundred advisorsand I coach them in teams and I
gave him the summary that you're.
In theory, your messaging isgood, we are the number one
trusted whatever for CPAs, butthe execution is awful because
they're just running aroundtalking to CPAs, doing lunch and
(14:41):
learns.
And when I ask, when you wentinto the meeting, what was your
intention and your desiredengagement and outcome?
How do you know if it wassuccessful?
And now that you've done themeeting, what is the next step?
And every time it's like Idon't know.
I think we had a good lunch andI'll follow up.
So I'll tell you what COIs.
(15:02):
When we interview all theclients we've interviewed, I
always ask why don't you referyour advisor to more people?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I just want to underscore that for our audience
is that?
One of the things I think is sounique about your approach is
that most of us come from hey,this is my experience.
Hey, maybe I've trained orcoached a handful of people and
this is what I'm seeing butyou've literally not only the
scale of the people that you'veworked with, but also the
approach of actually doing focusgroups.
Think about it in the mostcompetitive arenas that exist
today, say politics, they spenda lot of money on focus groups
(15:27):
because they need to get thatmessaging right and it can save
them a lot of time and trial anderror.
And so I just wanted tounderscore that your approach is
really backed by a lot ofresearch, I would say primarily
in the area of focus groups.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Absolutely, and I tell advisors that these aren't
my opinions.
I'm just reporting back.
I'm told by the people you wantto help right the kind of
clients you want to refer.
All I do is ask them.
My company was called FeedbackMarketing Group.
The whole concept is, if I wantto market my services to a
community of people that willfind me valuable and
irreplaceable whether that'sCOIs or clients getting their
(16:04):
feedback on how to do thateffectively is the first step.
When I can tell they're likelove the advisor.
At some point I will ask whydon't you refer your advisor to
more people?
And when it's a client, thenumber one response is some
variation of they don't talkabout it.
They've never asked about it.
Man, my advisor is really busy,I'm not sure they're even
taking new clients.
(16:24):
50% of the clients we interviewaren't even aware if their
advisor has capacity to helpmore clients.
Think about that.
Those aren't going to beeffective advocates.
They don't even know for sure.
When they see the advisor andsay how's business, the
advisor's like ah, it's crazy,man, I'm really busy.
And they give this persona ofcapacity.
When I move to the COI space andask that same question by a
(16:48):
mile, the answer is somevariation of risk they feel
making a confidentrecommendation to a client who's
really important to them.
You need to go see this advisorto get a resolution to this
problem.
They find a tremendous amountof risk in doing that Reputation
risk, monetary risk.
If my client gets mad enoughthat they leave, I could lose it
.
Most of them are very hesitantto open those floodgates.
(17:11):
They're very protective of thatclient base.
What I look at with the COIspace is like you said, paul, if
you can establish this greatreciprocal relationship, where
you refer a CPA and they referback.
Without a doubt, they are thebest market for high quality
referrals.
The problem is, most advisorsthink they have a reciprocal
(17:34):
relationship.
Yeah, I got this CPA and, man,I sent him 10 clients last year.
I've gotten one client in thelast three years.
Right, they have this falseexpectation of reciprocity and
they don't know what's wrong.
And so, again going to thefeedback marketing concept, if I
want to bring value to a COI,enough that they say I want you
(17:55):
to talk to my clients the COIhas got to teach me how to do.
I need to understand how do youdefine value when it comes to a
collaborative relationship withan advisor and how do you
define risk when you think aboutconfidently endorsing an
advisor or wealth managementfirm to your client.
What does that feel like?
What has been your pastexperience?
(18:16):
Because that CPA is bringingwith them every stereotype,
every experience, every good,bad and ugly.
And I need to understand thosethings if I'm going to try to
bring value to them and lowerrisk.
And too many advisors want toget in front of a COI, present
their value prop and think thatCOI is going to be like where
you been my whole life.
Here's all my clients Ain'tgoing to happen.
(18:37):
It's a patient process thatnormally starts with bringing
value to the COI for a period oftime in the form of education
resources, making them smarterin areas they need to be smarter
.
To be more valuable to theirclients, you have to demonstrate
competency expertise.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
One of my favorite strategies and just the context
is that my company helpsadvisors write and publish books
, and then the question isalways okay, I wrote the book,
now what?
I want someone other than mymom to read the book.
I've been focused on developingand helping advisors execute
just a number of strategies thatthey can take advantage, but I
think probably currently one ofmy favorite ones is that when
(19:17):
they have these COIrelationships, is to leverage
the book as a tool.
And I'll give you a concreteexample.
I have one client in mind.
His firm manages upwards 10plus billion in assets under
management.
He has a hundred advisors.
They do really well when itcomes to CPA relationships, so
they already have the CPAs inplace.
What we're doing together isthat we're offering the CPA the
(19:40):
opportunity to write a customforward for the book.
We're private printing this,meaning that you're not going to
go to Amazon and find 50 copiesof the book, but instead it's
private printed, so you decideselectively who it goes out to.
But what I'm seeing happening,which I'm just thrilled by, is
that he's getting the buy-infrom the CPA.
So they're doing two things.
One, they're writing a customforward for the book so they
(20:02):
have ownership of it.
So now it's not just, hey, myadvice, this person's book, but
now it's our book, which is ahuge mind shift change.
The second thing is that nowthey're invested in the process,
so actually they're proactivelysending out a letter and a copy
of the book to their entireclient base, or at least the
segment that it relates to, andsaying, hey, essentially I wrote
(20:22):
the forward on this book, thisis the wealth management firm
that I use, I recommend them,etc.
In my mind, what you're gettingis you're getting that trust, I
would almost say squared,because authorship creates a lot
of trust.
It accelerates the speed oftrust, as I like to say.
Now, when you have a COIsending out this email to their
existing clients who alreadytrust them, that's where you're
getting this trust squared andthe results have been fantastic.
(20:45):
I want to get your feedback andthoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I think having a book is instant credibility period
If you think about whether it'sa COI or a client trying to
refer somebody to you.
Back in the old days it wasgive a business card or whatever
right.
But if you're looking at waysto establish credibility before
you're able to meet a prospect,or you have a prospect coming in
(21:07):
and you want to do a littlework to establish some
credibility and trust beforehand, there is nothing cooler than
being able to say, hey, I'mgoing to send you a copy of my
book.
Or hey, I'm going to email myadvisor and connect you.
Here's a copy of their book.
This will give you an idea ofsome of the things they talk
about and their expertise inthis area.
It's instant credibility.
(21:27):
If you're trying to form arelationship with a COI that
does not want to grow theirbusiness, is not trying to
improve and become smarter andmore valuable, you are wasting
your time and there are a lot ofCPAs that are at capacity.
They don't want more clients.
So what is in it for them totake any risk or recommend to
(21:48):
you?
So that, to me, is what'sunique about COIs is you're a
prospect for them also.
So I always start there andwe've got a process built out
for how do you structure thatmeeting?
And I structure it just bysaying look, I told you we come
across clients all the time thatneed support in your space and
I just want to learn more aboutyour firm, the background, all
the different things you helppeople with.
(22:09):
If there was one or two areasthat you really love to work in.
What are those areas?
Who's your target market?
What kind of challenges yourclients typically have?
I'm trying to learn to vet themfor my clients.
Also, they're telling me of allthe things that I help people
with.
Where should I most likely focusmy time to talk?
(22:30):
So if they're talking about wehelp senior citizens, I'm not
going to be sharing my strategyfor helping budding
entrepreneurs, but if they're inthe business market and they
work with entrepreneurs and thatreally is their ideal client
profile, I'm going to focus onthat part of what I do and how
we normally solve the challengesthere.
So to me, it starts withfeedback and learning about them
(22:51):
talking about us.
With a next action of, I wouldlike to learn more about that
one specific service.
I have a lot of clients thatneed help in that area and I
think I would be better if I wassmarter in that area, and is
there an area that we work inthat you would like to dive
deeper into?
So my initial meeting, myobjective, is a second meeting
(23:13):
that's more laser, focused onour core competencies, and we're
like teaching one another, andthe goal is building trust,
leaving each meeting with thenext step already identified of
what I want to have happen.
That's the beginning of whatwill evolve into a solid COI
relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Just wanted to finish off by asking you two questions
.
Is there any question that Ihaven't asked you that you'd
like to share?
And finally, where can peoplereach?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
out to you, I think.
Paul.
Number one, thanks for the time.
Number two, I love what you'redoing with the books.
I actually met somebody who dida book for named Anton.
Yeah, sharp guy Loved gettingto know him.
He's got a fascinating companyin the COI connection space with
advisors.
He was really cool to talk to.
But one of the things that Ithink your listeners if they're
(23:57):
listening at this point, it'sbecause referrals are something
they maybe struggle with or wantto get better at.
I just want to give them kindof one takeaway, one thing that
I see consistently that if theycan handle better, they can move
the needle tomorrow.
Right, it's one thing theycould implement our whole
process and get all the coachingand that I mentioned that when
we've done research ourselves.
(24:18):
But then we also partner withDimensional Funds, which is a
global fund company who doesmassive research around the
world and a variety of things.
So we find that when 98% ofclients anywhere from 90 to 98,
depending on the study say thatthey're willing to refer an
advisor, but in their researchover the last eight years and
we've participated every year inwriting questions for their
(24:40):
studies they find that 51% ofclients think they have referred
their advisor to somebody atleast one new client in the last
12 months.
51%, and more than 30% thinkthey referred more than one.
Think about the metrics If Ihave a hundred clients minimum,
I should get 51 referrals thisyear.
Nobody has those metrics right.
(25:01):
What we find the actual problemthere is those people, 81% of
the time, are giving theadvisors contact information.
Hey, you got to call my guy,john.
Here's his number.
Sometimes they never even telltheir advisor.
They did that Every now andthen.
Hey, by the way, I gave yourname to someone the other day.
So here's what I'd loveadvisors to think about.
I always tell them all thegrowth that you would like to
(25:24):
achieve in your business alreadyhappened last year, just not
effectively.
If you could rope in all thetimes that a client gave your
name to somebody and thosepeople became clients, you would
never hire me.
So it's not an issue ofconvincing clients who don't
want to refer or think money isprivate.
Trying to objection, handlethem into referring.
(25:45):
That's not the issue.
It's let's identify the peoplethat are willing and even trying
, and let's make them moreeffective at what they're trying
to do, which this is what Iwant your listeners to
understand.
Think about the most popularmethods of talking about
referrals.
From back in the day, I getpaid in two ways.
The greatest compliment youcould give me as a referral
don't keep me a secret.
(26:05):
When I interview clients, weask have you ever referred
anybody?
And when they say yes, we askcan we talk about?
The last person that youreferred to?
Your advisor Is my brother.
Here was the situation.
I'll ask them why did you do it?
Because it's risky.
If something went wrong thatcould impact your relationship
with your brother, why'd youtake that risk?
21 years, I've never had aclient look at me and say
(26:26):
because my advisor gets paid intwo ways.
I wanted to compliment myadvisor.
They told me don't keep them asecret, never, and I'm never
going to.
A client perspective is simple.
If I'm the kind of person thatenjoys being helpful to other
people and somebody I care aboutneeds help, I take action.
I want to be helpful.
The problem there is they do soin a way that doesn't lead to
(26:49):
the person they care aboutgetting help.
I would encourage yourlisteners be prepared for the
moment when a client says I gaveyour name to someone the other
day and I have handled it.
The exact same way in everysingle industry I've been in
Happens to me all the time.
Gave your name to someone theother day, dan.
They're going to call you.
All I do is say I appreciatethat.
Can we talk about it for aminute?
And they always say sure, likethey're confused, like what?
(27:12):
Yeah, I say I'm assuming youdid that because you think they
might need some help or benefitfrom some advice or some
guidance.
Is that accurate?
I always ask that questionbecause, paul, what do 100 out
of 100 people say yes?
They always say yeah, they wentthrough this and I was telling
them about you.
All I do is say the problemwith that is they don't know and
trust us the way that you do.
(27:32):
As a result of that, unlessthere's something very urgent
going on, they're unlikely toactually get help.
So, because that was your reasonfor doing it, can we just talk
about a comfortable way to teeup an introduction, we increase
the likelihood they get somehelp.
Could be an email that we'reall cc'd on, based on your
relationship.
Whatever's comfortable for youI cannot tell you how many times
(27:54):
I gave your name out turns intooh yeah, why don't we just send
them an email and, hey, I couldwrite it for you if you want?
Save you the time.
Oh, that'd be great BoomConnection, introduction, new
client.
If we could stop the 80% ofclients that are not only
willing to refer but trying torefer and coach them on how to
effectively help people, wewouldn't need to hire referral
coaches because the hard part'salready done and the good thing
(28:17):
is already happening.
We got to rope them in, sohopefully that's helpful to your
listeners.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I've taught referrals and how to do it and ultimately
, to me, that's really one ofthe best ways is to get an
introduction.
I prefer the word introductionto referral because it's not as
intimidating, but ultimately Ineed the person to introduce me
in a way that, a I'm aware of itbut, B I have the ability to
follow up, and what I love aboutthe email is just a very low
(28:43):
risk.
It's just an introduction, butit allows the person being
referred to to follow up,whereas what you said before is
that if it's simply oh, I gavesomeone your name, you're right.
Chances are they're not goingto take any action for the
reasons that you stated.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And where people can find me.
It's funny because I was sodamn busy speaking for so many
years I never even had a webpresence or LinkedIn accounts or
anything.
So right now I would encouragepeople to go to schoolcom
forward slash exchange and checkthat out.
People can email me questions,dan, at modelfacom, and inquire
about any kind of services.
(29:16):
Very soon we're going to berelaunching our entire brand.
We've been rebuilding for abouta year and a half.
Now that the exchange is live,we're building the whole brand
around it, but those are thebest places to find me Very cool
.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Dan, thank you for your time.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
These are things that I'mgenuinely interested in.
I love getting your feedback,just really as a true expert in
the space, so I enjoy theconversation.
I hope our listeners enjoy theconversation and I appreciate
your time today.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Congrats on what you got going on, paul.
It's a cool service, thank you.
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