Ep. 12 | Surfing the Break: Mushrooms & Healing | Stay Classy Swapcast - Mind Body Mushroom

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That's gonna, like, kill you one day.
Like, that will kill you.
For sure.
I mean, just looking at and, again, I'm not amillionaire or billionaire, so maybe I'm doing
it wrong.
Who knows?
If you can run a six-minute mile, some peopleare gonna look at you and be like, dude, why
are you sandbagging it?
When you
were young and your parents told you not to,like, hit your head on stuff.
They're like, yeah.
Your brains don't you know?
Sure.
Your brains just won't grow back.
Like, don't honestly, a smaller percentage ofthe, like, difficulties that that veteran you

(00:24):
know, the war not being over.
Like you said, like, it's kinda simple.
Even, like, combat, Sid Guy, combat is, like,you know, it's this conveyor belt of, like,
lather, rinse, repeat.
You're they're the small group.
Life is fairly simple.

(00:46):
Episode 90, Stick Classy Podcast.
Here we go.
We got Jordan here.
Jordan is the owner of Wind and Sea Coffee.
He's also a Navy veteran, and he does a numberof other things as well that we're gonna get
into.
But, I really wanted just to start off by this.
It's something I noticed about when I waslooking at, when Wind and Sea Coffee recently
on the website.

(01:06):
Well, actually, I don't think it was on thewebsite, but it was in some of the information
you sent me when we originally got introduced,which was, you mentioned how you utilize plant
medicine and surf therapy.
Like, you've used it for yourself, right, sinceyour experiences in the military.
And you actually, we'll get into this later,but use this in your philanthropy towards other
veterans towards helping them transition andheal back into society.

(01:30):
So I want to start there with, like, what gotyou into plant medicine and surf therapy?
Because those sort of sound like reallyalternative approaches to, you know,
traditional, you know, going up and signingwith a counselor and, you know, kind of going
through those kinds of methods, which there'snothing wrong with that.
But you kind of have these alternativeapproaches that are very sort of natural-ish
and have this different feel.
So what got you into that?
Like, what was the starting point for that?

(01:51):
What difference has that made for you?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Thanks, Jordan.
So backing up a little bit, like you mentionedin my background, I'm a Navy vet.
I'm actually trained as a medic.
I was a medic with Marine special operations.
And so my background really is in sort of thisWestern medical approach.
You know?

(02:11):
And that was both my clinical training, butalso after I had gotten injured in the
military.
I went down a fairly, like, Western medicalroute.
You know?
It was a lot of injections, pills, surgeries,you know, these types of, you know, you're
really treating the symptoms.
And if you have byproducts of those symptoms,well, there's a pill for that too.

(02:34):
Yeah.
You know?
So, at first, my approach was just like, Idon't really care what my, you know, approach
is, like surgeries, injections.
Like, I'm just trying to get better.
Mhmm.
You know?
Like, I need to get back into the action.
I gotta get back to my job.
I gotta get you know?
So I'm, like, just looking for the fastest waypossible.
After, you know, four months go by and I'm notgetting much better, despite all these other

(03:00):
modalities I'm doing, it's starting to occur tome that, like, there might not be a better.
You know?
It may be some version of, like, managing thesesymptoms.
And if that's the case, then, you know, how doI manage them for the long term?
How do I do this sustainably in a way that'snot gonna mess up my organs?
It's not going to you know I'm I'm playingwhack-a-mole with side effects.

(03:24):
And, you know, I've I've now seen kind of whatthe VA system can look like, and, you know,
it's a lot of, like, salty old Vietnam, Koreavets.
And, they're on that you know, they don't knowabout a lot of these alternatives.
Yeah.
So, you know, they're at the VA.
They're fighting with the pharmacist to gettheir pills, and I'm like, dude, I just, like,
I don't wanna be that.

(03:45):
Like, I really, really don't.
That's no fun.
You know?
No.
And so you're like, if I'm gonna have to figureout how to, like, manage this, let's, you know,
let's do so sustainably.
And that's what kinda got me looking intoalternative, wellness, plant medicine.
You know?
And then I can go into some surf therapy stufftoo, but I want you to hop in.
No.
Yeah.
No.
I just wanted to start there because, like, Ikinda like to get into the hard-hitting stuff

(04:06):
right away, which is, like, you know, you comein, and you have obviously the business
background, but we can't ignore that there's acomplete other side of you in this big part of
your story, which is the military side, yourtime in the Navy.
What was the timeline when you were a member ofthe Navy?
2013 to 2017.
Oh, 2013.
Okay.
2017.
And, so I just bring all that up because I feellike, you know, I'll share this: I have friends

(04:29):
who I'm not gonna name, but friends who aretransitioning back from the military to
civilian life right now.
And it's been really hard on them for a lot ofreasons, and I, you know, have family members.
Both my grandfathers fought in World War II.
So I have a family history of the military too.
And I just know from hearing these stories thatthat transition is so hard.
It's so difficult, from the news, when I workedas a news reporter interviewing, stories about,

(04:53):
like, homeless veterans and those sorts ofthings.
Like, I know that these transitions areincredibly difficult.
I don't know from personal experience, but fromobservation and research.
So, I want to start out by getting straightinto this other side of you, which is the
philanthropy side, which is that you help theseveterans transition back into civilian life,
but you do it in these very different ways.
And so I'm not trying to make you sort ofjustify yourself here, but just sort of explain

(05:18):
what got you into those alternate approaches.
So Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, with the surf therapy stuff, it'sinteresting because actually one of my best
friends constantly tells me about how surftherapy has made a difference for him.
He was an Army veteran.
He saw combat in Iraq.
And he talks about, like, specifically just thesort of healing process and how, you know, at
first, he didn't really know how to surf andwasn't really sure it was for him.

(05:39):
And then now he just is addicted to it.
He can't stop surfing even if he wanted to, itfeels like.
So talk about surf therapy and what thatactually does on the mental healing side of
things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So one thing that you said that's important tokinda talk about is that transition.
So in my case, you know, I had gotten injured,just kind of in training.
It wasn't like a combat injury or anything,but, you know, a lot was kinda being thrown

(06:03):
into question.
You know?
It was, like, the future of your job, yourcareer.
Yeah.
You put a lot of identity into your job title.
Like, that's who you are.
You are this.
You know?
And so now if you're losing your job, like,you're kinda losing a piece of yourself.
And, in my case, you know, there was all theseother, I'm losing my mobility.

(06:23):
I'm losing, yeah, you know, respect in mycommunity.
I'm losing a lot of these other things.
But regard even if you're not being medicallyseparated from the military and you're just
transitioning, you're coming from a culturewhere, you know, in two seconds, you glance
over at someone's chest and you know theirrank, you know kind of their story.

(06:43):
It's written in their ribbons.
You know what theaters they've been in, and so,but then you get to the civilian world, and,
you know, you're just Steve.
I'm just George.
Like, you know, I don't know what you do.
I don't know your history.
I don't know your background.
And so that sort of sense of self that you getbuilt around, you know, the culture, the rank,

(07:04):
the discipline, the shared, you know, traumabonding that you guys all have kind of, yeah,
with the military, that's tough for everybody.
Mhmm.
As they transition out.
And they have to kind of redefine who they areand what they, you know, what they care about
and, you know, what they wanna do in this nextchapter.
So I think that's, you know, a challenge that alot of people have, kinda regardless of

(07:26):
situation, PTSD, injured, not injured, like,regardless.
Everyone's dealing with that.
And I think where surf therapy kinda came infor me and where, you know, it sounds like for
your buddy and for a lot of people is it ticksa lot of boxes.
One, you're getting in touch with nature.
You're getting actually out there, which hasits own, like, actual therapeutic effects,

(07:47):
like, physiologically, but you're also beingpart of a community.
You're doing something, you know, like in themilitary, you're coming from a shared
experience, a shared lingo, a shared, you know,sense of suffering in some cases.
You know?
And surfing's kind of that way too.
It's like, dude, like, you know, you've beenout on a big day and everyone's just getting
thrashed, and you're like, well, you know, andthere's its own terminology.

(08:12):
Like, there's a it's a culture around that, andI think that was what attracted me, largely to
it.
And I think where it gets people a lot ofbenefit is that they realize, like, you know,
out there, you're kind of in this flow statewhere all of, like, the problems that you have
back on shore of, like, who am I?

(08:33):
What's my identity?
What am I gonna do?
And, you know, oh my god.
The bills are here.
And
It kind of recedes for a minute.
Yeah.
For a second, you're just like, all all thatlike, I can't surf if you're not paying
attention to, like, oh, I think this oh, isthis alright?
Yeah.
I think this is right.
Well, let me paddle out over here.
It's like this very like, you're you'refocusing on this very, like, in the now, you
know, mindful activity, and I think that sortof just, like, moments of where you're not

(08:57):
thinking is where you're kind of free fromsuffering.
Mhmm.
And that's what I think people experience whenthey surf and why it's been so
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(09:20):
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Yeah.
And I wanna say, like, and by the way, I haveI'll admit I haven't done, like, looked at,
like, scientific research or studies on thingslike surf therapy on plant medicine, therapies
that you're talking about.
So I'm just gonna have that disclaimer.
Like, I'm not an expert here, but I will sayfrom anecdotal experience, from the people I

(09:43):
know who have surfed, that both the things youmentioned about have been extremely helpful for
those people.
And but I wanna save the plant medicine andsort of the scientific, like, element because I
think there's, like, chemical and psychologicalissues too that we need to, like, talk about.
But I kinda wanna categorize that later downthe line because I wanted to get into something
that's gonna be a very, I think, emotionaltopic for everyone in the room, which is that,

(10:06):
you know, today is September 12.
Yesterday was September 11, 23rd anniversary ofthe attacks on the Twin Towers.
And I would be remiss if I didn't point outthat we have another veteran sitting in the
room, which is our producer Rob Esposito.
You're right.
Who is who also served in the Navy.

(10:27):
How many deployments, Rob, on your ship?
Or
So I deployed for both Afghanistan and Iraq.
So I was on the first carrier that got deployedafter 9/11.
I was
I was stationed in Virginia when 9/11 happened.
Within a month, I came out to San Diego crosscountry, and then two days later, they flew me
out to the John C.

(10:48):
Stennis.
We went over and bombed Afghanistan for, like,nine and a half months.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a real Groundhog Day kind ofsituation.
Yeah.
So, Jordan, yeah.
And I'm not gonna be rude and ask your age, butI will say, like, you weren't in the military
at that time.
But when 9/11 comes around every year, like,when that date comes around, just what, like,

(11:12):
what do you feel given now that you've servedespecially?
What do you feel like?
What comes to mind on days like that?
And when I say days like that, I mean, otherdays that have a lot of significance to members
in the armed forces in particular, likeVeterans Day, like Memorial Day.
For sure.
So what, like, what are the emotions that youfeel?
Like, what sort of comes to mind for youpersonally?
Let's start there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, talking about, like, 9/11, for example, Ithink one thing that's been interesting for me

(11:37):
is that the significance and sort of theemotional, like, what I feel about 9/11 or on
9/11, has evolved over the years.
You know?
So, yeah, like you mentioned, I was, I think,11 when 9/11 happened.
So I was, like, 6th grade, 7th grade.
Mhmm.
And, I, you know, everyone kinda rememberswhere you were.

(11:59):
I was, like, just showed up to school, and, youknow, they had the TV on, and they were talking
about this.
And I remember just being, like, so, like,confused and kind of scared, but mostly just,
like, like, angry or, like, why?
Like, why would somebody do this?
Like, you.
know what I mean?
And, like, I was, like, I didn't really quiteknow it at the time, like, as long as I was,

(12:20):
like, I knew I was gonna join the military.
Like, I didn't.
But I remember thinking, like, I wish I couldhave done something about that.
You know what I mean?
Like, I I I took it very, like
Yeah.
Personally.
You know?
And then, as the you know, maybe by the timethat you're in, there's a sort of a sense of,
like, yeah.
Now I'm, like, I'm in that fight.

(12:41):
Like, I I, you know, I I signed up.
I showed up.
I did I'm doing my part.
And then, as the years kinda go by and youkinda realize you're like, dude, we're 20 years
into this thing, and
Yeah.
And the goal posts have kinda shifted.
And we you know?
What's what are we doing?
Why are why are we still sending guys overthere?

(13:01):
Like, how many generations of people are are wegoing to to to send to go die on some, you
know, dirt lot that
Yeah.
You know, we don't really have, like, any wehad a reason to go, and now now it's sort of,
like, it's kinda gone.
And then I think as I get older too and, like,you start learning a little bit more about,

(13:22):
like, you know, Saudi Arabia's connection tothe financiers of the hijackers and where
people are showing.
14 of 19 Saudi
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's all the stuff, and you're like, dude.
Like, even the story that we were told isn'treally the story of what happened.
Yeah.
You know?
And so
How does that make you feel?
Because, like, on the one hand, there's gottabe all this, like, you know, rightful, like,

(13:45):
pride and loyalty to the military and towardsyour brothers and sisters and ours.
On the other hand, that's gotta be hard to tolook at that other set of facts.
Like, how do you, like, reconcile that?
Yeah.
Sure.
I guess where the way I think about it is thatthe the people who go to fight the wars and the
people who start the wars are will never be thesame people.
They're always gonna be different, because,it's it's, like, it's typically, like, the

(14:11):
underclass, like, the poor, you know?
Like, these are the people that go fight anddie, and it's the, you know, the upper class
that kind of, you know, they have stocks inmilitary contracting firms or, you know,
they're they they they are on the other side ofthe equation.
They can you know, they're senators.
They can, you know, push the chips around theboard, and it's not their kids that are going

(14:35):
to go die.
Skin in the game.
Yeah.
They don't have the skin in the game.
The CCR song where it's Yeah.
Yeah.
What's the Fortunate Son?
Right?
Yeah.
Exactly.
Line about, the senator's son.
I'm I'm no senator's son.
Yeah.
I just wanted to say, Jordan, that I you know,I had a I had a similar experience except that
I was I was in when it happened.
Yeah.
And, you know, it did evolve over time becauseat first, it was it was sadness and disbelief,

(14:58):
but then there was this, like, real, like, wewant we want revenge.
Right?
And kicks them out.
There was we were so excited to see all thisgun camera footage of these guys getting blown
up out in Afghanistan.
It was at the time, it was so exciting.
But now years later, knowing the true story andall the stuff that happened, it it feels kinda
dirty to be part of that, you know, to realizethat we were we were kinda used.

(15:19):
You know?
Right.
Totally.
So I wanted to say there's kind of a more,like, on the mental health front and the
personal side of things when it comes to warthat I wanna get into.
But I will say on the broader macro, like,foreign policy spectrum, I'm not gonna give all

my opinions here, but I will say this (15:37):
I was thinking yesterday to myself, like, is 9/11
really about honoring the veterans, honoringthe fallen of that day and then the people who
fell in the wars to come?
Or has it sort of become this dark symbol ofour collective societal desire for vengeance
and bloodlust?

(15:57):
Interesting.
And I was kinda thinking about that.
I thought about posting to my social mediafollowers.
Not that anybody really gives a fuck what Ihave to say on those accounts anyways, but I
was thinking, like, man, it's hard because,obviously, I didn't lose anyone in 9/11.
I haven't lost anyone directly in the wars thatfollowed.
So people are like, you know, who are you tosay?

(16:18):
But I was just thinking and reflecting on howlong we stayed afterwards, because, you know, I
did have a friend.
He wasn't in Afghanistan, but he was in Iraq.
He saw combat.
He lost friends.
He suffered injuries himself, and I wasthinking, like, you know, man, what was it all
for?
How does he feel about that?
You know, sometimes I even hesitate to ask himbecause it's a sensitive topic.
So it's like, man, like, that's gotta be hardon a lot of these people who feel like their

(16:43):
sacrifice was I don't wanna say wasted, but,like, it just feels like maybe it kinda went
into the ether.
Sure.
I guess there's different, like, apertures thatyou can look at conflict or something like
that.
So, you know, there is the big picturestrategic, like, okay.
What did my impact do?
Did we clear that city?

(17:04):
Did we, you know, stop?
We cleared Mosul.
We did, you know, whatever the case is, and didthat matter?
And then I think where most people kind of are,like, especially if you've been on the ground
and you it's like if you wanna look atstrategic and big picture, you're like, I'm
here, and that means my brother doesn't have tobe here.

(17:25):
My sister, my mom, my father.
Yeah.
You know, like, I'm kinda holding this line sothat, like, they can go live society.
You know?
Like, I really do support the like, if youwanna be on a college campus and you wanna wipe
your ass with the flag, I support that becausewe're one of the only countries in the world
where you can do that.
You know?
That is part of our identity.

(17:45):
Go do that in Iran, see how that works out foryou.
Go
do that in Gaza, see how that works out foryou.
You know?
So, like, I said, I said,
go try to protest for LGBTQ rights in Gaza.
See how
that goes.
You know, I support that.
So it's, like, part of the picture is, like,I'm glad that you're not there.
The other side of it is, like, I'm here.
Like, I'm doing my best so that you can gohome.

(18:06):
Yeah.
You know
what I mean?
Like, I don't give a shit what the big picture,strategic picture, if it matters or not.
What matters is that, like, I did every, youknow, my best so that you you could go home or
I can make your day, like, a little bit easier.
You know, it's kinda you take on that, like,second family
Yeah.
mindset where it's like, you know, everyonekinda has a role, and then you start doing

(18:28):
these stupid menial tasks, but you're doingthem for the people that you're around.
So I think in that sense, like, that kindagives people, like, that have been there a
justification that, like, you've done Yeah.
Your best.
Yeah.
Well, it's it's interesting because, the anumber of, like, people I've talked to and, you
know, and books I've read that are written bypeople who who served in the armed forces, all

(18:51):
the way from Hemingway up until the modern day.
I just continually get the sense from World WarI until the present day that, you know, like,
and Rob's probably gonna be sick of me hearingthis this particular spiel because he's heard
it before, especially in our last podcast aboutWorld War I.
But, like, my personal opinion about that war,not not World War II or World War I, also known
as the Great War, is that I think in the lastfew years of that war, a lot of those, like,

(19:14):
17, 19 year old dudes didn't even really knowwhat the fuck was going on.
They didn't really know what the war was about.
The aristocracy was shipping them off to fighteach other in the trenches, and they, you know,
they're dying in the mud in Western Europe andthat was that.
But, like, I don't think a lot of us will knowwhat the war is about.
I feel like the consistent story I've heard,though, from books from Hemingway onwards and
from stories from other veterans is that atsome point, you kinda, like, don't really think

(19:38):
too much about that macro stuff, and it becomesmore about the brother on my left, the brother
on my right.
Like, it becomes about, like, you know, I don'treally know exactly what this is all about, but
I know that this matters to me in this moment.
Yeah.
Like, that's what, like, kind of motivates youto get up in the morning.
That's what kind of motivates you to fight.
For sure.
I mean, there's even I think it might be AllQuiet on the Western Front.

(19:59):
It's somewhere it might some Great War I.
Yeah.
But it's a famous story about how it was onChristmas, and the French and the Germans,
you know, come across, like, soccer together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's because they're like, yeah.
You know, there's that's why you have to try sohard to dehumanize the enemy because it's real
easy to see the humanity in the other side.

(20:20):
And when once you do, you realize you're like,oh, dude.
Like, can I really kill this person?
Yeah.
Or or, like, you see you see the absurdity inthe whole thing.
You're just like, we're just in some ditch overhere.
You guys are in a ditch over there.
Some people thousands of miles away are gonnamake us go run at each other and, you know
Yeah.
Create a bloodbath.
But, you know, like, for five minutes, like, wejust, like, acknowledge the shared piece of

(20:40):
humanity that is Christmas and soccer andwhatever, and it's easier to do.
That's why they there's so much effort goesinto propaganda.
Yeah.
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(21:24):
And just to bring this back to to 9/11, like,because my original question was, like, what do
you feel comes to mind?
I will say this.
Although I've never served and have no, noteven in my direct siblings or anything, no one
served.
But my dad's father who passed away a long timeago, well before any of us were born, from lung
cancer in the early '80s.

(21:46):
But he served in World War II.
He was an officer.
He was a Marine Corps officer, and he fought inthe Pacific Theater.
So he fought on Guadalcanal.
He fought at the Pacific Isles, lost allhearing in his left ear permanently from a
grenade.
I heard a bunch of other crazy stories abouthow he ran into a burning ammunition factory
and saved a bunch of people.
Dude, different breed.
Had a Jeep blown up in front of him with 30people, all this stuff.

(22:11):
And honestly, some of the stories are reallythrilling.
Like, it's all recorded in these letters thathe wrote to my grandmother, who was his fiancée
at the time, while he was at war.
And some of the stories are really thrilling.
Some of them are honestly so heartbreaking thatI can't even get into it.
But what I will say is that, you know,obviously, you know, not to do with 911

(22:32):
specifically because, you know, he passed awaya long time before 911.
But when days like that come to mind, I think,like, you know, I think about the grandfather I
never met.
I think, like, how would he have felt about, ondays like this.
And he never talked apparently about the war,never spoke of it.
It was only all the stuff was discovered afterhe had passed away about these letters and
stuff.
But I was just thinking, like, what I feel isthat, you know, kind of from that perspective

(22:59):
of the idea of, like, the only people who seethe end of war are the dead.
Like, you know, you've heard that quote.
I used to think that meant, like, human historyis just a continuous cycle of war, which may be
the case.
Like, I think that is the case actually.
But I think that maybe what that refers to on apersonal level, and this is gonna tie back into
what we're talking about earlier with thepersonal healing and stuff, is the war isn't

(23:21):
really over when you leave the battlefield, isit?
It's not over.
I don't think it was over for him.
And I have a lot of respect for him, so I'm notgonna get into it.
But I know there were a lot of personalstruggles that happened after the war.
Right.
A lot of personal pain, probably far more thanI'll ever know.
For sure.
And I think, like, you know, there's a moviethat didn't get a lot of, like, good reception

(23:43):
when it was released.
It's called I think it's called Murphy's War.
Anybody heard of it?
It was released in the early '70s.
I think the actor was Peter O'Toole.
But the only thing I really remember from themovie—I saw it once a long time ago.
I don't think it was even the best movie, butthere was a line near the end.
The storyline is basically this guy is huntingdown the Germans that sunk his ship and killed
all of his men or killed all of his comrades.
And he's hunting down this German submarine,and then they get the signal that the war is

(24:07):
over.
The Germans have surrendered, but he's at thegunner's turret, and everyone's like, dude, you
know, you gotta chill.
Like, the war's over, man.
You can't, like—and he's like, it's not overfor me.
He just gives it it's not over for me.
Like, my war isn't over.
Right.
And I just, like, I was thinking about that theother day and, like, the PTSD and the trauma
that I see in a lot of the veterans that, youknow, you can actually see in a lot of the,

(24:27):
unfortunately, the veterans that are homelessand suffering, and the stories I've heard from
friends about, you know, how that impactsrelationships, how that impacts marriages, you
know, father-son, like, father-daughter,whatever.
But, like, I was just thinking with all ofthat, like, the war isn't really over when
people leave the battlefield.
Sure.
Like, sure.

(24:48):
So, that's kind of, for me, I guess, what comesto mind personally.
I mean, do you guys, like, do you guys kindashare that sentiment as people that have served
or, like, on days like that?
Does that kinda come up for you?
Or
Oh, yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
100%.
And, look, I was in the Navy.
I was on an aircraft carrier, and it still tookme a couple of years to get my head straight
after, you know, being involved in all thatstuff.

(25:09):
And I was never even, like, in combat gettingshot at.
You know?
It, it and you have all the moral questions.
Like I said, you start with this anger, andthen after a while, you start to question
yourself and, you know, and war kinda can makeyou a terrible person.
It may can make you kinda see red and wantblood.
And yeah.
It's, you know, it's kind of a terrible thing,and it's really, really hard to come back from

(25:32):
that.
And there's a lot better programs and stuff, Ithink, for veterans now than when I got out 20
years ago, but I I don't I don't think theimpact of that has changed.
I think it's still just as bad.
We still veterans still struggle when they getout.
You know, part of that is just because you're,like, like like we were saying, you know, it's
it's an institutionalized kind of place whereyou just have to worry about what your job is

(25:54):
today for the most part.
Yeah.
Making sure you remember to shave this morning,your uniform's on right,
and you show up.
Right.
And
when you get out, you know, not only do youhave all this all this baggage from, you know,
being involved with something that killed a lotof people, you know, but all of a sudden, the
world changes on you.
It's it's a it's a tough transition foranybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what I I would distinguish thatthey're you know, obviously, like, the the the

(26:18):
form of PTSD that gets a lot of attention islike, okay.
I went overseas.
I did, you know, stuff that is, you know, justcall it morally gray.
Mhmm.
Or just is inhumane.
Right?
Mhmm.
Nonhuman.
And now I'm wrestling with that trauma that,you know, that's one type, and I think that is

(26:40):
honestly a smaller percentage of the, like,difficulties that veteran, you know, the war
not being over.
So there's that aspect.
There's, you know, like you said, like, it'skinda simple.
Even, like, combat is, like, you know, it'sthis conveyor belt of, like, you know, lather,

(27:00):
rinse, repeat.
You know, you're there with a small group.
Your life is fairly simple.
Any deployment, whether you're combat or not,it's just like you get in these routines.
You know, it's kinda sometimes what you'redoing is meaningless, sometimes it's
meaningful, whatever, but it's simple.
Right?
Yeah.
And then you get back here, and it's just likeeverything is dynamic.
There's no right or wrong answers.

(27:21):
You know?
So that's a trauma.
And then the third trauma that I think, youknow, is that a lot of people deal with, and
this kinda gets brought out with some of the,like, plant medicine, like Ayahuasca, like
psilocybin type of retreats that people do is,sometimes the trauma began before the military,

(27:42):
and you brought that into the military.
You know?
And maybe that was your reasoning why you, youknow, I didn't wanna be bullied, and I was
always bullied.
And, you know, my dad was an asshole and da dada.
And so I needed to go make a man for myself,and then I joined the Marine Corps, and I, you
know, and now you did that.
And so it's like the trauma.
Yeah.
You went to Fallujah, and you did all sorts ofcrazy shit, but that the trauma started from

(28:06):
your childhood.
You know?
And, so so I think
when you factor in
all of that together and then, you know, yourwife that, you you know, is pregnant now with
somebody else's baby that has on your youfactor in all that stuff too.
And, yeah, that's where the war, I think, isnot over for people.
But the the PTSD part, I think, is a it's asmaller fraction than, but it gets a

(28:30):
disproportionate amount of the
Well, only 1, and I think, like, every 10people in the military is actually a trigger
puller.
Right?
Like, a lot most people are techs.
They're in the rear with the gear.
They're working with artillery or in aviation,a medic, whatever.
You're you're not out there killing people, butyou're you're still a huge part of it.
Yeah.
So, I I wanna get into the the the therapy partthen.

(28:54):
So, I mean, this this is a really complexissue, and it's something that I I again, and
I'm gonna say it just one more time, but I'mnot an expert in yet.
Like, you know, I hope to be someday, butthere's so many variables at play here.
There's psych real psychological and andchemical challenges, like, in the human brain
that contribute to things like PTSD.
They contribute to mental illness.

(29:14):
Like 100%.
Those are real.
I'm not gonna come on here and say, like, oh,well, like, I, you know, like, for me, you
know, I've had a tumultuous history that I'veshared before with with mental health and with
medication.
I'm currently I'm not on medication.
I'm not gonna come here and be like, oh, well,for me, this works.
So it's gonna work for all of you.
Like, I don't take my meds anymore.
So, like, you know, just everybody get off.
No.
Like, don't fucking listen to me.
Like, if I say that, like for sure.

(29:35):
You know, kick me out of the studio.
But
Get him some meds.
Yeah.
Give me some meds.
But, like, it's complex because and it's also avery emotionally charged topic because people
are affected by this.
So for you, though, like, what's worked, like,as far as, like, on the sort of scientific side
with, like, the alternative medicines thatyou've employed?
Yep.
And how does that have a multifaceted approachto the psychological, the chemical, the kind of

(30:01):
the everyday life, like, the emotional?
Like, how do you tackle those different areaswith your approach?
Totally.
So, yeah, there's kind of a lot I wanna unpackabout what you said.
I guess one of maybe one of the first things,we can talk about, like, physiologically,
what's happening with, sometimes in the brainwhen you're having, like, you know, some mental

(30:24):
episodes or something like that, a mentalsituation.
And then in the body, something more, like,physically based, you know, inflammation, pain,
you know, sleep, these type of deals.
But so so going back to, like, mental let'stalk about, like, stress, and anxiety and sort

(30:46):
of, like, depression, addiction, these type of,you know, symptoms that are mental based.
Well, one thing that has, like, kind of bridgesthat gap of both physiological and mental are
traumatic brain injuries.
And that's a very common thing that you find inthe military because you experience these from

(31:07):
blast trauma too.
And, like, they're just now starting to, like,realize, like, oh, there's a lot more.
Like, whatever we thought was, like, a safedistance or a safe number of explosions or it
only explodes over this big, they're startingto look at that and realize, like, oh, when
we're, you know, peeling back the brain andwe're seeing, like, we're seeing CTE kind of

(31:27):
even, you know, from people throwing repeatedhand grenades.
You know?
So now you're talking about breaching doors inhallways, you know, and you're getting
blowback, and it's like your brain is justgetting Yeah.
So you're getting I mean, I don't know if yousaw that movie with Will Smith.
I forgot what it was what it's called, but, hewas a
War movie?
No.
It was a it was a football movie, actually.

(31:48):
Football.
It's when they first started, like, he he was afamous football player.
I'm embarrassed about
I think I know about the movie you're talkingabout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of the football and concussions.
Yeah.
Concussions.
Yeah.
So I I
know about the movie.
I don't think
it's right.
Right.
So his whole deal was that he was, like, he,like, donate he was, like, had this he was a
pro football player, had this major Yeah.
You know, personality change over time, and hewas, like, you know, I think he killed himself,

(32:11):
but he was, like, he shot himself in the chestand was, like, you know, studying my brain, and
they started realizing all these concussionsreally resulted in changes in his brain that
then corresponded to changes in his behavior.
Is that a Chargers player?
I don't remember what team he played for.
Chargers guy that committed suicide in early2000.
Oh, was that Junior?

(32:32):
I was
gonna say Junior.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's not who Will Smith was playing, butregardless, so, yeah, they're they're you know,
we know that about concussive force, you know,if you're in using anti-tank stuff or, like,
the Carl Gustaf, like, a lot of these other,like, big heavy weapons.
But now they're starting to, you know, realize,oh, if we're throwing hand grenades at at a

(32:54):
range a lot, like, that could do it.
In that case, what about, like, belt-fed, youknow, crew-serve weapons, like 50 cals and
stuff like that?
In which case, you're like, maybe we're drivingeverybody crazy to have, like, actual impacts
on their brain that could then translate tobehavior changes down the line.

(33:14):
So what I have found to be super beneficial isplant medicine at at managing some of these
symptoms because there's a pharmaceutical foreverything as well.
Yeah.
But a lot in my experience, a lot of thepharmaceuticals came with side effects that
then you'd have to use more pharmaceuticals toaddress.
And before you know it, you're shovelinghandfuls of pills, you know, every day, and

(33:38):
you're like, this is just my reality.
Sure.
So looking at, like, functional mushrooms, forexample, what they're finding they do is they
enact on what's called your HPA axis, which isyour hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis.
Okay.

(33:58):
I believe.
And what that does is it's the part of yourthyroid actually that creates adrenaline and
produces cortisol.
So when you get into that fight or flightresponse of, like, oh, I'm, like, stressed out
or there's a tiger coming or whatever, youknow?
And you spike on adrenaline and cortisol, well,as we're going through, like, daily life, we're

(34:20):
kind of in this, like, low-grade, you know.
Yeah.
Adrenaline and cortisol.
Like, oh, my boss is calling.
That day.
My bills are due.
There's no tiger around, but yeah.
You know, these little, like, cortisol dripsall day, all day, all day.
And so what, like, reishi mushroom does is itacts on that axis, and it downregulates your

(34:43):
cortisol production and adrenaline productionand gets you back into, like, that balance,
like homeostasis, where you don't feelstressed, you don't feel anxious.
And if you're not feeling stressed and anxious,you know, you're not producing inflammatory
markers, and maybe that's why that knee won'theal.
You know?
Every time I go to the gym, my knee's beenkinda clicking it.

(35:04):
Well, I wish it would just get better.
Well, if your body's in, like, a constant stateof low-grade stress, it's not going to get
better because it's just gonna keep on sendinginflammation to that joint.
So by decreasing your cortisol productionoverall, you're decreasing your inflammatory
response, which is
healthy.
So what I'm hearing is that, like, stress, itdoesn't just, like, mean, like, a general

(35:26):
feeling of discomfort on knees.
It can actually contribute to, like, specificphysical pains.
For sure.
And sickness and sickness because it's yourimmune system too.
You know, your immune system is an inflammatoryresponse.
It's your body sending, you know, T cells andwhite blood cells and all sorts of different
cells to, you know, attack a virus orsomething.

(35:50):
Yeah.
You know?
And that's why it's like if you're not sleepingvery well, like, let's say you're chronically
underslept
Yeah.
You know, your immune system takes a hit.
Why?
Because all of these systems kind of worktogether to help each other out.
So if you're like you're not getting enoughsleep, then you're not replenishing
Yeah.
That, like, system.
And so you're constantly kind of, like,undermanned, and then that's when, you know,

(36:15):
your environment and all the bacteria andviruses that we're being exposed to, that's
when that starts winning that battle.
You know?
So all these things play together, and that'swhy, like, kind of, you know, stepping back
when I think about, like, entrepreneurship orbusiness or just life in general.
You know, there's always this big trade-offright now or, like, you know, it's like the

(36:36):
hustle bro culture.
Yeah.
You
know, rise and grind, end up at 2:30, doingburpees.
Alex Hormozi's and all that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean way.
I love that guy.
For sure.
I love that guy.
For sure.
I love that guy.
Guys are like and grind.
I I like
a lot of them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
You know?
So there's, like, there's that there's thatmindset.
And and for me, I guess, on on the flip side,like, I'm kind of trying to approach whole
like, holistically, you know, in the food youeat, the medicine you do, you know, the way you

(37:01):
approach your life, it's holistic.
And so the way I think about it is, like, ifyour family life's falling apart because you're
not taking little Tommy to soccer game and yourwife hasn't been on a date for six months and,
you know, and and you're eating like crap.
You just order Arby's every night, and but,hey.
You're grinding, bro.
You're at 16 hours on the spreadsheets.

(37:21):
You know?
How long can you do that?
Yeah.
And how you know, you maybe the first threemonths of your spreadsheets are crushing it,
but then what happens a year later?
Like, now, you know, your wife left you, yourpartner left you, your kid, you know, your life
starts falling apart.
Are you really bringing your whole self to workif the rest of your life's in shambles?
If your health, you know, you're obese and, youknow, you have diabetes and all other stuff

(37:46):
because you let your health go too.
So for me, it's like, like, you kinda have toyou can't just neglect certain aspects of your
life.
Like, there are always gonna be trade-offs,can't do everything.
But for me, I find that if I wanna be the bestentrepreneur, the best business owner, make the
most impact in my community, make the mostimpact in veterans and etcetera, it's like I

(38:06):
have to kinda balance the rest of my life,bringing my life back into homeostasis.
Sure.
And before I move on to another question, I'mgonna quickly say something about what you just
said.
Like, with the, like, the whole, like, stressthing, I've always heard, like, oh, you know,
stress is like a killer to think of, like,mentally, which is true.
But you're, like, saying, like, the science isthere.
The stress can physically kill you in a sense.

(38:26):
Like, it can actually physically kill you ifyou don't take care of it.
So for all these, like, hustle bros andentrepreneurs and, we've talked about them on
the podcast before, the Musks and the SteveJobs and those guys and the Bill Gates.
Like, oh, yeah.
Like, work 100 hours.
Blah blah blah.
It's like, oh, yeah.
Like, have fun with that while everything elsein your life falls apart.
And, like, you know, look at some of thoseguys.

(38:47):
Their kids sometimes hate them.
Like, their spouses hate them.
Like, their employees say that they're horribleto work with.
Like, whoa.
But at least they're a billionaire.
It's like, good job, buddy.
Like you know?
Like so so yeah.
The reason I bring that up is, like, peopletalk about, like, people talk about, like,
like, balance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like, no.
Like, this can be life or death, and it can belife or death for you.

(39:08):
It could be life or death for your loved ones,like, for those relationships.
And stress is, you know, can physically killlike, in one quick anecdote, and then I promise
we'll move on.
But, like, the, the I was I remember reading upabout this this battle the other day.
It was a it was a World War II battle.
It was the deadliest battle of all time, theBattle of Stalingrad between the Germans and
the the Russians.

(39:29):
And, apparently, like like, something aroundthere were, like, around 2 and a half million
casualties.
Like, the worst, most casualty-ridden battle ofall time, you know, arguably the turning point
of World War II.
But, the reason I bring this up is becauseapparently, I was reading that, like, you
think, oh, the generals who aren't doing thefighting, like, you know, they wouldn't be
physically affected.
But, actually, the generals in Stalingrad,because of stress, were suffering so much

(39:52):
physical pain.
Like, apparently, one of the Russian generals,his hands had to be bandaged because he was
riddled with eczema to the point where his,like, skin was, like, just almost, like,
crawling.
Like, and, the the German general, there wassomething wrong with him.
I forget.
And then the the other Russian general thatlaunched the counteroffensive that won the
battle and saved the day, like, I think GeneralZhukov, he was suffering some kind of physical

(40:13):
ailment that was it was all stress-induced.
Yeah.
And so the reason I bring this up is because,like, you can only put off, like, oh, like,
I'll take care of that, like, mental, like,stuff, like, later, like, all the holistic
people, like, all that holistic hippie crap.
Like, it's like, no.
Like, that that's gonna, like, kill you oneday.
Like, that that will kill you.
For sure.
I mean, just just looking at and, again, I'mnot a millionaire or billionaire, so maybe I'm

(40:34):
doing it wrong.
Who knows?
But the the way I think about it is that, like,if you can run a 6-minute mile, you know, some
people but you're running a marathon, somepeople are gonna look at you and be like, dude,
why are you sandbagging it?
Yeah.
Like, you
can run I I've seen you run a 6-minute mile.
Why are you running an 8:30?
Like, why why are and you're like, I get that.
I get that.
I can can go faster.

(40:55):
But in mile 7 and mile 10 and mile 14, I'mgonna burn out.
I can't run that fast for that long.
And it's kind of a similar approach.
You know, it's like it's not sandbagging.
It's just sort of, like, looking to the longrun and trying to do as best as you can and
work as fast as you can, but sustainably forthe long run.

(41:17):
And just on the last point that you mentioned,something about eczema, kind of interestingly
enough, eczema is like an autoimmune kind ofresponse.
It's like an autoimmune disorder.
There's a lot of these.
Lyme disease is also one of those.
Multiple sclerosis.
There's a whole host of them.
And it seems like they're becoming moreprevalent.

(41:40):
Like, I know multiple people
gonna come back in, like, a
bad person.
In a bad way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I know people my age that have, you know,come down with, like, multiple sclerosis or
have been, you know, just recovered from Lymeor something like that, and often that comes
from ticks.
But point being, these autoimmune disorders,they're finding that mushrooms have actually
been beneficial in helping those because of its

(42:00):
ability to consume it.
That, and this will tie into your—yeah.
Your business.
So, yeah.
The ingredients you use for your coffee, theadaptogens, and the like, you've talked—you
mentioned the mushrooms, and we've touched onthat and the CBD.
But talk about that in detail.
Like, mhmm.
How does that, how do those ingredients and thekind of the science behind that play into what

(42:22):
you do on the business side?
Like, talk about the science that, like, sortof, behind that and then, like, how you start
incorporating that into business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Okay.
So I'll kinda briefly run you through some ofthe big ones.
But, so with CBD, CBD is interesting.
It's a cannabinoid.
It's found in cannabis, but it'snon-psychoactive.
So THC is the compound that makes you feelhigh.

(42:43):
That's what's regulated.
And CBD is all like, 99% of the medicinalaspects of THC, but it's not psychoactive.
What's interesting about cannabinoids ingeneral is you have receptors in your brain and
that correspond throughout your body, andthey're literally, like, designed like a lock

(43:06):
and key for cannabis molecules, like,cannabinoids is what they're called.
So taking them externally from the cannabisplant is one way of getting them.
It's called exogenous cannabinoids, or you canproduce them internally, which are endogenous
cannabinoids.
And, things like the runner's high, gettinginto, like, that flow state.
Your body naturally produces cannabinoids,which are like a feel-good, kind of bringing

(43:31):
your body again back into homeostasis.
So that's, cannabis or CBD.
Looking at some of the mushrooms, I mentionedreishi, which is one that does modulate your
HPA axis, but some of the other ones that arepretty interesting are lion's mane.
So big white mushroom, looks like the like thehead of a lion.
That's why it's called that.

(43:51):
And that mushroom has been studied and found toregenerate brain cells and nerve cells.
So, you know, when you were young and yourparents told you not to, like, hit your head on
stuff, they're like, yeah.
Your brains don't you know?
Sure.
Your brain cells won't grow back.
Like, don't you know, that that has largelybeen kind of the accepted position of it up

(44:13):
until fairly recently where there is actuallyneurogenesis under certain conditions, and one
of them is with the supplementation of lion'smane mushroom.
So that's really good for, like, people kind ofsuffering with Alzheimer's, getting back, like,
memory, cognitive support, just kind ofcreativity.

(44:33):
You know, it's like you can really good, like,workers supplement.
You know, you wanna go into the office or youwanna be creative or podcasting is another,
like, really good one.
Cordyceps, they call that the athlete'smushroom.
It's really good at helping your body extractoxygen into your bloodstream or, like, pull
oxygen into your bloodstream.

(44:55):
Good in ATP production.
So it's just sort of, like, good for energy,like, really nice clean energy, and, getting
your body to, like, process oxygen and use itefficiently.
Yeah.
Then there's, let's see, turkey tail, reallygood for, your immune system.
Chaga, same thing.
Chaga, I think, is one of the mostnutrient-dense, if not the most nutrient-dense

(45:19):
supplement that we, like, know about.
Yeah.
And so you what what you start doing is justokay.
Lion's mane's good for your brain.
Cordyceps' good for, you
know, like, your cardiovascular system.
Altogether.
Yeah.
Put it all together, and then you kinda create,and now you're, like, a head to toe.
And, you know, while there are many mushroomproducts out there on the market that are, you
know, will do all of these things, you know,there's tinctures, there's gummies, there's the

(45:42):
mushrooms themselves, there's Yeah.
You know, for me, when I was kind of learningabout all these things and starting to
implement them into my diet, I was like, thisis great, but I still had to, like, remember to
do it.
You're not gonna get better by not taking them.
So it I had to and then if you start, okay.
Let's get a lion's mane supplement.
Oh, let's get a cordyceps supplement.

(46:02):
Let's get you know, you have a medicine cabinetnow that's, like, four layers deep of all of
this stuff, and you gotta buy all of thisstuff.
And, again, you're not benefiting if you're nottaking it.
So my thought was that, like, I don't need toremember to drink coffee in the morning.
Like, it's, like, the first thing I think aboutwhen I wake up is, like, you know, it's already
part of my ritual.

(46:24):
And there's this concept called habit stacking,which is, like, it's easier to start
implementing new habits if you can stack themonto habits that you're already doing.
And so if coffee is sort of like this habit andthis ritual that I look forward to, that I'm
already doing, you know, and that is sort ofI've already made the space in the day for,

(46:44):
what if I just made that moment that you know,when I got in all these other supplements.
And so I kinda combined them into coffee andyeah.
Did you subscribe yet?
If you like our content, it's the easiest wayto support the pod.
Hit the subscribe button on the bottom rightand keep it classy.
I love that.
And, I I wanted to ask you, like, just just tobe clear, like and you've kind of, like,

(47:07):
established that connection between, like, hereare the here are the ingredients, here's how it
comes together, and here's how it ties intocoffee.
But, someone listening to this might be like,oh, like, you know, especially people that are
wary of anything with the word like mushroom ormarijuana in it.
Like, I'd be thinking like, oh, what you know,are you encouraging people to go out and take
drugs for their their mental health issues?
Like but but I don't think it's just that'sthat's an oversimplification.

(47:28):
Right?
Because it's not like, oh, like, gotten newshrimps and your problems will go away.
It's it's more like I I feel like what I'mhearing from you is using the right strains
and, like, the right concentrations combinedwith other ingredients and other therapies,
this can help.
So kind of, like, for for people that, like,might get the wrong idea, like, and and are
thinking, like, you know, like, this, becausethere's also another side of this, right, which

(47:49):
is that it's there is some research out therewhich is controversial that says that marijuana
use, special abuse, drug use, can aggravatesome underlying mental conditions.
So but but what what that's not what we'retalking about with with your products.
What we're talking about is, like, specificallystudied strains that mix with other ingredients
can can be helpful.
Right?

(48:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and just to make sure that, you know, youraudience is clear that there are so THC and
psilocybin are the cannabis and mushroomcompounds that are psychoactive and also
federally not legal.
Can like CBD and these other functional,mushrooms and adaptogens are legal and

(48:33):
non-psychoactive.
So I just want that to be clear.
Like, even shiitake mushrooms is technically aa medicinal mushroom.
So if you're thinking about, like, mushroomcoffee in this context, think about it.
Like, it's no dissimilar to, like, a shiitakemushroom coffee.
Besides that, that sounds kinda gross.
But, you know, like shiitake.
Yum.

(48:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But but yeah.
So so so that's one thing.
And and and back to kinda, what I was sayingearlier about, like, like, a holistic approach
to everything.
Like, I don't believe in magic bullets that,you know, like, with, you know, with this one
product, you will not you know, you'll sleepbetter and
Yeah.
You know, like, all this stuff.
Like, I I really do think that, you know,holistic foods and and superfoods like

(49:19):
adaptogens and functional mushrooms are are aningredient in a holistic lifestyle.
But there's there are just other aspects to it.
You know?
Get going outside, you know, moving your body,connecting with other people, eating good
foods, exploring, you know, for me, it was surftherapy.

(49:40):
It was yoga.
I I tried things like sound baths.
You know?
It just kind of like, you know, and then I alsoexplored, you know, like, ketamine therapy and
psilocybin and and some of the other things.
So it like, there's not a one size fits all,recipe.
I think it's it's an exploration.
It's something that you kind of engage, yourentire life into figuring, like, what works for

(50:05):
you and what is sustainable and and what sitswell with your body.
But, yeah, you know, functional mushrooms andadaptogens are just a component in in a
holistic, lifestyle.
So that's that's great.
Now with Wind and Seed Coffee, like, in the thedrinks that you serve and, the ingredients that
you use and by the way, how long have you guysbeen open again?

(50:25):
We've been Loy location?
Six years.
So we don't have a brick and mortar, but, we'reprimarily an e-commerce store.
We also sell through some, like, natural foodgrocers, and we're getting into coffee shops
now, serving some of our, adaptogen Yeah.
Powder products.
So what I was gonna ask you, though, is, like,I'm just genuinely curious, like, how, like,

(50:46):
you know, you've explained how your coffee hasingredients that other people aren't using.
Why do you think other coffee businesses, like,other businesses that provide coffee to other
businesses as well and to people, like, why areother people not doing what you're doing, or
are they?
Is this catching steam?
Like, what's the kind of nature of thatmovement?
Yeah.
Sure.
So, I think the nature of the movement is thatthere's a large mass-scale awakening and

(51:13):
education towards, you know, what thesesubstances are.
Because five years ago, you know, if you toldsomebody that you had mushroom coffee, they'd
be like, that sounds disgusting, or they wouldonly associate it with, like, a psilocybin,
like, psychedelic, like coffee type of deal.
Nowadays, they're like, oh, like, MUD\WTR?
Oh, like, you know, to some other brand thatthey've seen advertised to them on Instagram

(51:36):
or, you know, that their sister's trying andhas been using for a while, and she swears by
it and blah blah blah.
So there is sort of, like, people, you know,largely are becoming aware of this.
They're becoming aware of the benefits and thesort of, like, the off-the-bat, like, ick
factor of, like, I don't know.
That sounds crazy.
Like, that's kind of going down.
I would say how we differentiate ourselvesamong some of the other, like, mushroom coffee

(52:00):
or mushroom coffee alternative products outthere is that we're really approaching it from
a coffee first.
Like, some of these other brands, I guess I'llmention them, but, like, Four Sigmatic is an
old one.
It's been there for a while.
Mhmm.
Great company.
Tim Ferris talked about it in the 4 hour work 4hour work week.

(52:21):
Mhmm.
So there's there they use instant coffee.
MUDWTR doesn't use coffee.
It's like a cacao chai, whatever alternative.
Right, you know, they'll use either an instantor it's like some oat thing or, you know,
whatever.
And they all have their, you know, approach toit.
But for me, I was like, I like coffee.

(52:42):
I don't wanna drink fake coffee or instantcoffee or half coffee.
I wanna drink coffee, and I wanna drink goodcoffee.
I just want my good coffee to also have thesebenefits.
You know?
Yeah.
And so that was kind of our differentiator.
And then, you know, another slight differenceis that we have whole bean coffee, which is,
you know, keeps your coffee fresher.

(53:04):
It really is kind of focusing on the flavorprofile.
You can change the grind size if you want to doFrench press or espresso or whatever the case
is.
But in order to do so, that means we use atriple-extracted mushroom extract, which
actually increases the bioavailability, so itlets your body absorb it a little bit better.

(53:26):
And it also has almost 10 times the amount ofbeta-glucans and polysaccharides, which are the
compounds
I gotta stop it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're just the compounds that stop
me and ask you what the what that
was.
Yeah.
Go ahead and explain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just, like, within so it's like, what, youknow, within CBD coffee.

(53:47):
Right?
The compound that makes you feel good is theCBD cannabinoids.
Within the mushrooms, okay, reishi mushroom,that's a species of mushroom, but what in the
mushroom is actually making you feel good?
And then there's different compounds,beta-glucans, polysaccharides, triterpenes,
whatever.
Not to get too deep into the weeds there, butthose are the things.
So yeah.
So just by having a whole bean coffee,maximizing flavor, freshness, and also

(54:13):
bioavailability by using an extract that isreally easy for your body to get the good
things out of the
Sure.
extract and get into your body.
Now how many, so you guys serve coffee sorry.
Is it throughout San Diego?
Is it just in La Jolla kind of area right now?
Or
Serving?
We're just
in Where is your coffee going?

(54:34):
Where are locations?
We're served out of the Blue Whale in La Jolla.
Okay.
Valley Farm Markets in La Jolla and in SpringValley.
And then we're in three locations in Vegas, butI'm really trying to get into more
marketplaces.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what's funny is, like, so for coffee, coffeeis actually, like, relatively difficult to get

(54:59):
into coffee shops even though it sounds kind ofironic.
But it's because most coffee shops, you know,they have an arrangement with some vendor that
they're using, whatever.
And now it's like you're gonna add a secondcoffee vendor to that.
Sure.
You
know?
It just sort of complicates so
a lot.
I was gonna ask you about that.
So, like, how do you approach these businesses?
Yeah.
And, like, you it seems like, correct me if I'mwrong, you kinda gotta sell them on your

(55:20):
approach and your idea.
Right?
Like, of, like, hey.
Like, I have this alternative, like, kindacoffee, like, with these unique ingredients
that have research behind them.
How do you convince them to go with that andnot just keep, like, importing coffee from,
like, you know, like, Nigeria or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so it's
And I didn't mean to be disrespectful eitherwith that, but it's just, like, you know, it's
actually true that a lot of these, a lot ofcoffee, especially with some of the bigger

(55:43):
chains, originates.
The beans are harvested in East Africa.
But to my question, which wasn't phrased verywell, was just, like, basically, how does how
do you sort of sell people on, like, hey.
There's this, like, alternate approach that'sbetter for people.
It's better for the environment.
Like yeah.
Yeah.
So there's different messaging when you'retrying to communicate to customers, like, on

(56:05):
the Internet.
Like, my DTC direct-to-consumer sort ofchannels and model, it is what you're saying.
It's it's, hey.
This is better for you.
Here's all the benefits.
Here's all the science.
Here's what we do.
Here's why you're gonna love it.
Here's all this stuff.
Yeah.
When you're when you're approaching a coffeeshop to have them serve it
Yeah.
You're they don't really care.

(56:25):
I mean, they might care a little bit, like, ifthat's what their customers care about, but,
like, they just care.
Is it gonna sell?
Is it gonna be profitable?
Yeah.
Like, is it worth my time?
Because this is another thing now that I gottathink about.
I gotta spend money on.
I gotta take five minutes of my day to listento your spiel about why you think I should buy
it from you.

(56:45):
So you really gotta make your points to abusiness owner.
You gotta speak to, you know, theirmotivations.
Why do they why are they in business?
You know?
And on some level, it might be because, like,hey.
I just wanna provide the best stuff out therefor it.
So it's a little bit different messagingbecause you really gotta make it make business
sense to the business owner, whereas you reallyjust gotta make it make health sense and

(57:10):
financial sense to the end user.
But, back to that, what I found with coffeeshops is, you know, our mushroom powders have
been a lot easier to get in for servicebecause, like I said, it's hard getting a
coffee shop to offer a second coffee there.
But if you're offering something that kind ofis one step on the other side of the supply

(57:35):
chain.
Right?
So use whatever coffee you want.
You could use your coffee.
You have a great relationship with yourvendors.
That's awesome.
But are you serving a mushroom mocha?
Do you have a mushroom matcha?
Do you have a mushroom chai latte mix?
You know?
So you can do this, you know, and we send yousome pricing.
You buy for this much.
There's good margin on it, and you don't neednew equipment.

(57:56):
You don't need anything.
All you need is a jar to put it in bulk, andthen I'll come.
I'll train your staff.
I'll do all this stuff.
So I've found getting the powders into coffeeshops for service has been easier.
Okay.
Because it's not as much of a logisticalheadache for, like, a business owner who really
doesn't care that much right now.
Yeah.
You know?

(58:17):
You gotta pull out all those friction pointsfrom it and make it just as seamless as
possible, but it's a lot of work.
You know?
And it's definitely something I really wentdown primarily when I started the business as
direct-to-consumer.
You know, you know, what's my value prop?
How do I communicate it to people?
Social media, blah blah blah, all this stuff.
And now, like, 2024 and probably going into,obviously, 2025, my focus has really been, DTC

(58:45):
is expensive.
Customer acquisition is really expensive.
Just because you have a good product and awebsite and a good story is not enough to just,
like, you know, you know, the money just startsrolling in.
You gotta drive traffic to that website, andthat's hard and it's expensive.
So coming at it from the, like, let's look at abusiness-to-business channel and strategy.

(59:08):
And because it's relationship-based, we can getvolume sales.
We take some of the money we're making fromvolume, and we can reinvest that into our DTC
strategy now.
So that's kind of in the '24, '25.
You know?
That's what we're
Well, I'm honestly glad to hear that, like,business owners that you're pitching this
different kind of coffee to are receptive.

(59:28):
It's good to hear that, like, this movement'scatching steam.
We know we don't live, like, in the early 2000sor before where this was just, like, you know,
unacceptable.
Like right.
And now it's, like, becoming more mainstream.
But my question is, actually, just as far asyour future goes, what are your expansion
plans?
How do you see this thing going?
Right now, you're online.
You kind of mentioned the possibility of therebeing a brick and mortar, but what's your

(59:52):
overall sort of expansion plan?
What's your vision for win and see?
Yeah.
So I would really love to continue to expandthroughout coffee shops.
Because one thing that's been really cool,especially in Southern California, but you
kinda see it happening in more places, is thereare a number of these cafes, coffee shops that

(01:00:13):
are opening, and they're not like a Starbucksapproach where it's like, let's just, you know,
let's have bad coffee and sweet sugary drinks,and we'll just get you out the door.
Like, these are really I was just at NectarineGrove, actually.
That was in Encinitas.
I don't know if you've been there, but it's myfirst time there.

(01:00:33):
Okay.
And super healthy spot.
You know?
They have, you know, gluten-free, whatever,everything.
But, just like their emphasis is on, you know,whole foods, like healthy meals, smoothies,
using fun ingredients, like these sort of,like, superfood types of cocoa nibs and, bee

(01:00:54):
pollen and stuff like that that are, like,these foods that are also kind of, like,
superfood supplement type.
And they're normalizing and making demand forthese things.
So those types of locations are, like, theperfect fit for us because we're, like, that's
exactly who they already get it.

(01:01:14):
You know?
You're not having to convince them that this isa real thing.
And yeah.
You're always they're
like barriers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's not all those barriers.
They're like, hey.
They're like functional mushrooms, and they'relike, okay.
Yeah.
I know.
I'm familiar.
I get it.
Now if it makes financial sense and it tastesgood, you know, we're in business.
Yeah.
And,
you know, and they already know that theircustomer base are our demographic.

(01:01:38):
Like,
that's who we're looking to to so I think, kindof continue to pursue that.
And then, you know, I've really what I've lovedabout doing direct to consumer and just
building a brand in general is honestly, like,doing this type of stuff.
Like, I love connecting with people, sharing mystory, hearing other people's stories, and just

(01:01:58):
sort of expanding.
So I think, you know, like, every brand prettymuch for the next 10 years, there's gonna be
have to be an emphasis on, like, a digitalcomponent, like, you know, media, content
creation thing.
Yeah.
Anything.
So, you know, we started a podcast this year.
It's called "Mind Body Mushroom." And, yeah,just kind of, you know, that intersection of

(01:02:23):
holistic wellness and human stories and, youknow, just, I guess, whatever's kind of
interesting.
I've always thought it'd be really sweet to dothese, like, kinda like vlog type of trips
where, you know, you fly down to, like, ElSalvador and go, like, tour a coffee farm and,
like, get some, like, really cool content with,like, the production, partner with other

(01:02:45):
brands, like local, like, surf brands and stufflike that, get, like, co-branded sponsorship
with their gear, and then you do, like, a surftrip down there, coffee farm, and it becomes,
like, episode, you know, whatever.
Like, you know, just really having, like, funwith, you know, how do we draw attention to all
of these things that I'm interested in, and Iknow other people are as well.

(01:03:08):
And so just kind of creating, like, anecosystem around that.
I love that, man.
Like, the the kind of the surf idea.
Like, I, I know now where people I'd beinterested in that.
I'll I'll stick on that one because Yeah, dude.
Maybe some kind of collab.
Help me put something together.
It's been an idea in my head for a while.
Yeah.
No.
I love that, man.
But last question before I let you go is justthis.
Like, we've touched on a lot of differentstuff.

(01:03:29):
We've been all over the place today, but sortof the title altogether, man.
Like, we we talked a lot about, like, PTSDearlier.
We talked about, like, the, you know, themental trauma that veterans face and the
challenges of coming home and trying to live a,quote, unquote, normal or civilian life.
Right.
For you personally, and, you know, this doesn'thave to be, like, any big, like, moral lesson

(01:03:50):
for everybody.
But just for you personally, I wanna know,like, with all the challenges of the
transitions that you had to make personally.
And then not only did like, in overcoming thosechallenges, but in founding your own business
and being successful with it.
I'm genuinely curious, man.
Like, what, like, kept you going, like, throughall that time?
Like, I'm sure it wasn't easy.

(01:04:11):
I know for a fact it wasn't easy based on whatyou've told me.
Like, what kept you going?
Like, what motivated you?
What still motivates you?
Yeah.
So, I guess, a couple things.
On a very, like, pragmatic level, having workedin the military, I was like, I don't wanna work
for another, like, big company again or have aI can I like working in small teams, but just,

(01:04:35):
like, being an employee of a bureaucraticorganization, I was like, I am good on that.
Like, nope.
So I have to then figure out what I'm gonna do.
Like, how am I gonna put food on the table andand and continue going?
And, you know, I have a tendency to, like, beatmyself up a lot.
You know?

(01:04:55):
Like, I'm very hard on myself, and that isthat's been, like, one of my challenges.
But what I've kind of over time, you know, I'malways, like, why am I not, you know, bigger?
Why have we done this?
Or are you working hard enough?
Like, oh, you know what?
You're supposed to yours is you're this is astartup.
You should be putting in 90-hour work weeks.
Why aren't you doing that?

(01:05:15):
Like, what you know, that type of deal.
And what I've found is that, like, falling inlove with the process and just sort of, like,
enjoying, like, the struggle and not being soattached to the result.
You know?
Because once you get that result anyway, it'sjust gonna be another milestone that you, like,
I'm the type of person that's not gonna besatisfied with that result either.

(01:05:38):
Yeah.
So then it's the next thing and then it's thenext thing and then it never ends.
It never ends.
You're just miserable.
That's the good deal.
You know, it's like, you you gotta realize,like, this is what we're doing.
This is this is it, man.
Like, I'm I'm happy to be here.
I'm happy to share this moment with you andtalk about it.
And, you know, it's it's 12 on a, what even dayis it, Thursday?
Thursday.

(01:05:58):
Yeah.
You know, I'm I I don't I didn't have to callanyone to be here.
I didn't have to ask permission.
You know?
I'm I'm, like, forging my own path, and theimposter syndrome that sort of is associated
with that for, like, the first couple years andon some level the the whole time.
But, like, I've started to feel less of animposter and feel like, no.

(01:06:19):
This is who I am.
This is what I do.
I'm in control.
I got this, and I'm just enjoying the ride,man.
Like, that that's all I can really do.
So June of 2023, randomly, it's kinda likerandom story, but I I got sepsis.
It was like a I was like a random infectionthat became a kidney infection that became,

(01:06:42):
sepsis.
And I was in the hospital for, like, four days.
They're like, good thing you came in.
They're like, you were probably, like, hoursaway from septic shock, and then we would have
found you.
And there's, like, a really high mortalityrate.
At that point, I was like, whoa.
It's sort of, like, out of nowhere.
Yeah.
But while I was in the hospital, which washonestly probably the most miserable thing I've

(01:07:03):
ever done in my life, just being in thehospital for four days, I thought back to,
like, if, you know, what if I had just died,like, what would have been the last thing that
I had done?
And the Saturday, Sunday prior to that, or,like, the three days leading up to that, I had
just taken my girlfriend on a trip to, like,thank her for, yeah, you know, she helped me do

(01:07:26):
some work on my house.
And, you know, so I was, like, it was, like, awhole, like, gift to her.
I was an absolute mess on that trip because Iwas dying of sepsis.
But, you know, like, the thought that counts.
Right?
Yeah.
But there I, you know, so I was, like, doingsomething for my family.
And then the Saturday, Sunday right beforethat, I volunteered for a surf competition up

(01:07:46):
at Camp Pendleton.
It was like a military surf competition.
We did a whole setup with, like, Windansea.
We're just giving out free coffee and stufflike that.
So and there may have been something to writeus before that.
But, like, I remember thinking, I'm like, I didsomething nice for my family.
I did something nice for my community.
I did you know, I'm, like, if I were if I wereto get hit by a car, like, on the way, you

(01:08:09):
know, out of here, I'd be cool.
I'd be happy with that.
I would regret nothing, dude.
I'd be, like, and so that became what'simportant.
Like, who gives a shit, you know, 10 years fromnow if you hit your can you look backwards 5
days and be like, yeah.
I did those good.
Those those are a good 5 days.
You know?
I'm proud of myself and who I am as a person.

(01:08:29):
because of that.
That's all it's about, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's all you can do.
It's all you can do.
And I know so that was the last question, butI'll just close with this thought.
Like, you know, it's it's cliche.
It's like, you know, tell your loved ones thatyou love them.
But for me recently, honestly, and there's nottime to get into it now, but just with some of
the things I've shared before on this podcast,like, you know, there's been times where those

(01:08:50):
relationships haven't always been easy, andit's been rocky.
There's been resentment.
There's been bitterness.
There's been challenges.
But I will say this.
I've started recently for myself, and I'm notsaying everybody has to do this, but started
trying to, like, consciously, like, callsomeone I care about every day, basically.
Like, just, you
know, maybe, like, one person, maybe more thanone depending on the situation.
But sometimes I call, and it's kinda like, youknow, what's up?

(01:09:13):
Like, you know, what what are we doing here?
Like, you know, I'm you called me.
Yeah.
You called me.
And I
don't even know how
to say it, but it's like, man, like, I, I just,like, wanna call you, Mom.
I wanna call you Dad because maybe tomorrow Ican't.
Yeah.
Or maybe you can't call me.
Right.
Because we never know.
Right?
Right.
And, yeah, I I just kinda wanna close thatthought because I think that, you know, this

(01:09:34):
podcast for a long time, we we've promoted,like, entrepreneurship and, like, a business
and, like, hustle and stuff.
But I just wanna be clear that, like, you know,those are the things that really matter.
Right?
Yeah.
100%, dude.
You know, like, in just, like, a weird way,like, with we were talking earlier about war,
it's like, you know, sometimes forgetting whatthe war is about.
Like, life can be like that.
Right?
Life is like war.
Sometimes we forget what it's all about.

(01:09:54):
What matters yeah.
Is coming home to Mom and Dad.
You know?
Coming home to brother and sister.
You know, wife or girlfriend or fiance or, youknow, whatever.
Like, that's what that's all it's about.
Like and, like, those other things, not thatthey're not important, but, like, don't don't
get lost in that.
Right?
Like and that's that's kinda what I hear fromyour story, and so I I just kinda wanted to
No.
Yeah.
Close with that.
But
Dude, I completely agree.

(01:10:15):
Yeah.
I mean, the little things are the big things,and, you know, you really gotta when people
look back on, like, their deathbed, like, Ijust heard the statistic, and it was something
like the things they regret are, like, beingtoo hard on themselves.
That's one of them.
Not, not accepting other, like, people, liketheir kids or their wife or whatever, their

(01:10:41):
partner, not accepting them and kinda lettingthem, just, like, do what they want to do.
And, it's always a regret of I didn't regretthat I did this.
It's that I regret that I didn't do this, youknow, that I didn't start that business, that I
didn't start that podcast, you know, that Ididn't move to Europe, that I didn't join the

(01:11:01):
military, that I didn't you know, it's theregrets you people always regret the things
that they didn't do, you know?
So, like, go out.
Try.
Try.
Just try to do your dreams, and don't be sohard on yourself and, you know, value the
people that are there next to you because thelittle things are the big things.
Love it, man.
Well, I really could do another hour at leastof this.

(01:11:23):
But I will say, like, just to give you a chanceto close, like, tell people again, like, your
website, not just for Windansea, and thatinformation, but also, how, like, people can
get in touch with about some of thephilanthropy you do with veterans and some of
the work you do with veterans with, the surftherapy, with the plant medicine, the holistic
healing.
Like, how can people get in touch with you andaccess those resources?

(01:11:43):
Yeah.
Thank you.
So, the website is windanseacoffee.com, spelledlike the beach.
So there's no "d" in and.
It's like
Yeah.
Spelled just like in the Hawaiian.
So windanseacoffee.com.
On Instagram, it's at windanseacoffee.
Check out my YouTube channel.

(01:12:04):
And regarding the philanthropy stuff, so, yeah,we donate to 1 More Wave, which is a surf
therapy nonprofit based out of San Diego.
And another thing that we, well, we also do anumber of different, like, veteran stuff.
Like, we help other organizations as well, butthat's the big one.
And then another initiative that we juststarted, it's added on our website now, which

(01:12:24):
is kinda cool.
It's called Eco Drive, and the organization iscalled
So if you purchase anything on our website, itadds to your cart kinda automatically.
You can toggle it off if you don't want to, soit's no big deal.
But it's like a $2 donation, and what that doesis it cleans a pound of plastic out of the

(01:12:46):
ocean.
So, you know, and a pound of plastic forreference, it's something like 100 forks, like
1,000 straws, you know, 20 water bottles,something like that.
So it's tangible.
It's like a meaningful thing, especially whenwe are finding microplastics in our bowls.
You know, I think it's about time we startdoing something about it.

(01:13:09):
So yeah.
And please just connect with me on anything.
Shoot me a DM.
I'm very approachable.
If you, you know, if you have any questions, ifyou're interested in the product, if you wanna
try a sample, or if you're a business that'slooking to collaborate, you know, we do a lot
of stuff, like, fitness organizations.
If you're another podcast, if you're a coffeeshop owner, a grocery store, a food
distributor, anybody.
Just hit me up.
Yeah.
I'd love to connect.

(01:13:30):
So yeah.
And if you don't, and if you don't hit them upand if you don't go on the website, you'll end
up with microplastics in your
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Download the plan.
Jordan, loved having you on today.
This has been a real honor, man.
Yeah.
You too, Steve.
I appreciate it, brother.
Man.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Thanks, guys.
That's a wrap.
This has been another recorded episode of StayClassy podcast with your host, Steve Wyer.

(01:13:51):
Thanks so much for tuning in.
And as always, you can find all of our contentat our website at stayclassypod.com.
And thanks to our production sponsor andpartner, Maxlux Media.
You can find them at maxluxmedia.com.
Don't forget to like and subscribe to ourchannel on YouTube.
Every subscription helps and goes a long waytoward ensuring that we can continue to produce
content for viewers like yourself.
Thanks so much.
Stay classy.

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Ep. 12 | Surfing the Break: Mushrooms & Healing | Stay Classy Swapcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 12 | Surfing the Break: Mushrooms & Healing | Stay Classy Swapcast