Ep. 28 | Why San Diego Coffee Culture Lost Its Edge | Chris Dennis Ox Coffee

Jordan Ryan chats with Chris Dennis about his journey in the coffee industry, from his early days at Disneyland to his college experiences. Chris offers insights into San Diego's specialty coffee scene, especially at Ox Coffee Roasters, and discusses coffee culture's community impact. They explore wellness rituals, repurposing old brews creatively, the evolution of specialty coffee, and the trend of combining coffee with mushrooms for health benefits. Chris also shares his personal routines for balance, his community-building aspirations, and the challenges of running a coffee shop, highlighting the importance of personal branding and embracing uniqueness.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome back to the Mind Body Mushroom broughtto you by Wind and Sea Coffee.
I'm your host, Jordan Ryan, and today we'rediving into the captivating world of coffee
craftsmanship and innovation.
Our guest is Chris Dennis, the general managerat Ox Coffee Roasters right here in San Diego.
Chris isn't just serving coffee; he'sredefining it.

(00:21):
Known for his innovative approach to coffeecreation and his impressive showings at the
U.S.
Coffee Championships in the coffee and goodspirits category.
Chris combines precision, creativity, andpassion into every cup.
His signature creations, including thecompetition-famous orange creamsicle coffee
cocktail, have earned him recognition andrespect across the specialty coffee community.

(00:46):
Notably, Chris has competed multiple times atthe U.S.
Coffee Championships, consistently placingamong the top competitors and demonstrating
remarkable skill in coffee mixology.
Today, we'll explore Chris's journey fromcoffee enthusiast to coffee innovator,
uncovering the secrets behind his award-winningbeverages, his insights on leadership in the

(01:07):
coffee industry, and his vision for the futureof specialty coffee.
Grab your favorite cup and settle in.
This is an episode you won't want to miss.
Let's get into it.
Chris, welcome to the show.
Hello.
Hello.
So hello.
Hello.
So I wanna get into a little bit of yourbackground, kinda how you found coffee.

(01:31):
You know, I imagine that we kinda have slightlydifferent entrees into the industry and
application.
I don't know a ton about your background, but,you know, my background in the military, you
know, I always joke that the nation's wars arefueled by caffeine and nicotine, you know, so
coffee is very much this like industrialfunctional product that is meant to kind of

(01:58):
keep you alert, get you going, and help youwork these, you know, 16-hour days, running
boat ops, running flight ops, keeping yousharp.
So what first drew you to coffee?
And was there a specific moment when yourealized that this was more than just a job?
Oh, I feel like that moment just happens allthe time.

(02:19):
But I was enamored with coffee like reallyearly on in life.
My parents both drink coffee as like a regularpart of their routine.
And I was also just like told I, you know, it'snot old enough to have coffee, which also then
made me want it more just out of like naturaldefiance, because I'm a middle child.

(02:40):
So we just don't do we don't do what we'resupposed to do at all.
Like, we carve our own paths.
And it's not just like a, like, middle child ingeneral.
I'm like two years in between both sides.
So, like, middle, middle child.
Wow.
And then, like, we just couple that with like,genuine curiosity that I've always had.

(03:02):
Like, I don't think there's ever been a timewhere someone has told me no and I've gone, I
accept no.
Instead I go, okay.
So there's a creative way to find out how toget to yes.
It's just no to this specific way in which Ipose the question.
And so, my parents used to not only, like, brewregular coffee, but they had, like, instant

(03:24):
Folgers for, like, on-the-go stuff.
And my mom really liked instant Folgers.
And so I would, like, sneak it, like, at night,like, when everybody was, like, asleep.
And I am, like, a very logical human about,like, many things, but especially about things
that I, like, want and, like, how can I gethere or get to what I want?

(03:47):
And so, like, in St.
Folgers is super easy.
You just need hot water, but I couldn't turn ona microwave because it was gonna chime.
It was gonna make sound.
But I could, however, use a tea kettle and letit get hot enough to where it was going to get,
be able to dissolve the coffee, but notnecessarily start to squeal.
And so, I would do that.

(04:08):
Grab these Folgers.
I would heat it up, dissolve it, and then tryit out.
And then, like, when the canister got lowenough, then I would, like, add, like, dirt to
it to, like, make it look like nothing.
Cutting it back in.
Yeah.
So I did that until, like, one day my momfinally, like, at IHOP was like, okay, you can

(04:30):
try this coffee.
And, yeah, it was it was a different experienceentirely.
Like, I definitely tried it.
She didn't think I tried it at IHOP.
She went to the bathroom and my aunt, like,rushed me.
She's like, you should go for it now.
And then my mom came to the table and she'slike, okay, fine.
You're ready to try coffee.
And I was like, little do you know?
I've been doing this for years.

(04:50):
This is great.
And her shock was that I liked it.
And so then I continued to drink it at thetable.
But my reality was I'd been doing this for awhile.
And so that was kind of the entrance was thecuriosity about it.
And then the falling in love really happened.
I think the very first time I was in aStarbucks.

(05:10):
I was, like, on a family trip.
We went to Starbucks.
They used to serve these espresso chocolatebrownie things.
They no longer carry them, which is sad becausethey were delicious.
But I, like, as a kid, heard all these bellsand whistles going off, and we were all allowed
to get, like, one drink or whatever.
And I just wanted the brownie, and then Iwalked away.
I didn't even wait for my brownie, but I heard,like, the steam valves going off.

(05:33):
And I, like, would see them, like, you know,grinding or putting things into the hopper and,
like, hearing the grinding of the and, all ofthose different things that just, like, you
know, your typical coffee shop sound.
It's kind of like, if you ever watch, like,old-school episodes of Superman that, like,
that was Dean Cain's Superman, and they talkabout how, like, a, a newsroom should have,

(06:00):
like, all the hustle and bustle to it.
That's the excitement of being in a newsroom.
The same thing with coffee.
Like, it is very exciting to hear all thosesounds going off, especially as a kid, because
you don't know anything except for I'm at acoffee shop, and then it's just all of a sudden
becomes this, like, musical ensemble that'shappening for me specifically, which makes

(06:20):
sense because my dad is a musician.
And so, like, it just kind of hit me in thatand so, yeah, it just it's something about all
of the sounds and all of the chaos and thehustle and bustle really just, like, attracted
me.
And I was just like, oh, I'm gonna work heresomeday, before I even know what a job was
supposed to be.
Because at that point, like, my job was justlike whatever chores I was told to do.

(06:43):
And, you know, you always get promised thatyou're gonna get paid for them and you never
do.
That was my reality.
So right.
That's yeah.
That just became a lifelong dream.
It was like ASMR videos of coffee shop stuff.
Like, totally.
There's a lot of the steam and bells andwhistles and the sound of the gurgling milk.

(07:09):
It really is like a symphony.
That's so interesting that your dad was amusician.
What was a little bit of your background?
Where'd you grow up?
So I grew up in the hood.
We grew up like, Compton, Inglewood, that wholearea of life.
Most of my family on my dad's side still livesin Carson today.

(07:30):
And so grew up there, and then my dad kind ofprogressively moved us like a little bit
further out of the hood as we could, like as hecould level up in life, just to get us in safer
circumstances and maybe just like, betterschool opportunities to help us get to the best
that we could do with our potential.
And so, yeah, all over Southern California,mostly like L.A.

(07:52):
County.
Interesting.
And did, you know, how did you view coffee?
Was it kind of like a hipster thing?
Was it like, did you see it as in contrast tomaybe the culture that you grew up in, in
Compton and Southern California, kind of in thehood, like you said?

(08:13):
Did you feel alien to you growing up that way?
I didn't have any concept of coffee outsidewhat my parents did and what I saw my aunts and
uncles do.
And it really just felt like it was the adultthing.
And I didn't know why it was the adult thing.
Like, I didn't know that there was, like, thiswas their caffeine juice.
Like, I had no idea that coffee had anything todo with caffeine.

(08:35):
It just felt like it was an adult way of life.
And if you, like, look back, like, televisionin the nineties, like, kids weren't really
drinking coffee.
Adults were drinking coffee on television.
And so it just really like, there was noexplanation to me.
Like, this is what it is.
It was just kind of my natural assumption,like, okay, one day when you're an adult, you
get to drink coffee.
And that became a strong rebuttal for me as anexisting person who was like, you can't tell me

(08:59):
what to do.
So, and I think then as I started to get intomy teenage years and realize that people my age
were drinking coffee as well, it still neverset in for me that there was a caffeine factor
because everyone was drinking Starbucks anddrinking frappuccinos or you were going to your

(09:19):
local 7-Eleven or gas station and hitting thatbutton for a French vanilla latte.
So everything is, like, just sugary and sweetwith this caffeine part or coffee part of it.
But the caffeine part never really, like,energy drinks to me were what you did for
caffeine.
Like, I, to this day, will swear by GreenMonsters.

(09:39):
I don't drink any other energy drink.
It has to be the Green Monster because, one,the flavor is amazing.
But then, two, it gives me, like, exactly whatI need in the moment that I need it.
But like that was how I learned to get excesscaffeine was through energy drinks.
It never really occurred to me the caffeineportion of coffee until I started working at

(10:01):
coffee.
And what was your first coffee job?
So technically, my first coffee job was oncampus when I was attending Biola University.
We had a coffee shop on campus called CommonGrounds.
So that was the first job that I officiallywas, like, hired as a barista for.

(10:21):
But my first coffee experience actuallyhappened when I worked at Disneyland.
I worked there in my last year of high schooland then going into college, and I worked in
this area called Hollywood.
And so in Hollywood Foods, there's like TastePilots and there's this place called Award
Wieners that I worked at.

(10:42):
And then they had this little smoothie placecalled Schmoozies, and Schmoozies had an
espresso machine in there that almost no oneever ordered from.
I think before the time that I actually had areal coffee experience there, one person
ordered one hot chocolate one time, and ittook, like, six of us to figure out how to use
the machine.

(11:03):
But that also was just, like, a bad thing forme to be there because I already had this bug
of interest.
And then you give me a machine in front of methat's, like, I think it was a La Marzocco and
it was like a two or three group.
It was a huge machine and it was like, Igraduated in 2005.
So this is like 2004.
So this is when machines were, like, massive,but it was just sitting there.

(11:27):
It's in a smoothie shop.
Like, no one's ordering coffee at a smoothieshop.
And so, like, that literally just like I'd beon an eight-hour shift, and I'd be like, well,
if I'm not doing anything else and all of mychores are done for the day, like, I'm gonna go
play with this thing.
And then, like, the moment of truth happened.
They did an anniversary thing where they letpeople sleep over in the park at California

(11:47):
Adventure, and they asked me if I wanted towork for that night.
So first, they put me on this caramel corncart, and I was just, like, slinging caramel
corn left and right.
And then after that, they were like, a lot ofpeople really want hot chocolate, so we're
gonna move you over to Schmoozies and, like,have you make some hot chocolates on the

(12:07):
machine.
And I literally, like, called a friend thatworked at Starbucks, and I was like, I don't
know how to use this.
Like, tell me how to.
And they kind of talked me through it.
And then I found my way through it.
And I sold probably like 200 hot chocolatesthat night.
And by the end of the night, I was aself-declared barista.
Literally did nothing with the espresso, had noidea how to use the espresso whatsoever.

(12:30):
But self-declared barista in the sense that Iput together drinks using this espresso
machine, therefore I'm a barista.
So, yeah, that was like my actual first coffeeexperience.
That's great.
And so at what point, I mean, at some point,especially now, you know, as you are a
competitor, you travel all around the world,all around the country competing in barista

(12:55):
competitions and I want to ask you some moreabout that, but you know, something that
there's a distinction obviously between likeFolgers and Starbucks and third wave specialty
coffee that really focuses on the origin, thealtitude, the processing, the roast profile of

(13:17):
the coffee.
Where did that split come from for you whereyou kind of made that distinction between like,
okay, I understand now coffee is this drinkthat you can order that's like a frappuccino,
but where was the shift towards like, wait asecond, there's really like an artisanal aspect
to this that you kind of dove in.

(13:39):
Yeah, I always tell people that the best thingI learned early on in life is to be
authentically yourself and to take stepstowards yourself, not towards what you think
the goal is supposed to be or what you thinkthe path is.
Like when you take steps into your owninterests, then you end up kind of creating
your path.

(14:00):
And it may look similar to an industry path,but it also may look very different.
And the important thing is you are satisfyingself along the way, so you remain happy.
Okay.
And I think that's what happened with me andcoffee.
It was just this organic growth as I pursuedthings that interest me.
So like after being, I worked at Common Groundsand when I did, then I had some friends who,

(14:22):
all of us just were really on fire for likesocial justice projects.
And so we got involved with something calledInvisible Children, which was just helping to
aid the stop of this rebel war and this rebelarmy that was being, basically crafted but,
like, held against their will by this guy namedJoseph Kony.
And he was, like, mutilating people if theytried to dissent from the army, but these are,

(14:46):
like, kids that are, like, four, five, sixyears old that are being inducted into his
army.
We knew what we could.
And had a lot of friends that had a lot ofbands, either at Biola or just in the
Fullerton, La Mirada area.
And so we started doing these, like, pop-upconcerts.
And my contribution besides, like, helpingorganize the concert flow was just to I would

(15:08):
go and get donations of, like, milk andespresso and, like, chocolate powder or
whatever, and we would make lattes and sellthem for, like, 50¢, 75¢, whatever, and raise
extra money while at the concert for InvisibleChildren.
And so that was that to me, like, let me knowthat there was, like, community involved in

(15:29):
coffee, which was great.
And so then when I, like, took my next stepsinto Starbucks and working there, community was
still something that, like, was super importantto me.
And so then, like, I worked at this sillylittle small Starbucks in Texas.
That was my first Starbucks position, afterbeing denied to work for the company twice.

(15:51):
And within a month, we started doing this mommyand me hour because I just noticed that there
were these moms that started showing up, butthey were struggling to find a place to sit
comfortably or they were dragging tablestogether, trying to keep an eye on their
strollers.
And so I was like, what if we just had an hourwhere we know these girls are gonna come
anyway?
We might as well put tables together for themand create a space so they feel comfortable.

(16:15):
And then that, like, ended up turning into,like, a couple of moms into, like, several moms
would come during this hour.
And so not only did it create a safe place forthem to be moms together, but also it increased
business naturally because we became acommunity space for them.
And that helped, like, diving into thoserealities is what helped me move along.
And so eventually I moved into the CoffeeMaster program at Starbucks, because I knew

(16:42):
that if I became a Coffee Master that I wouldhave to do, like, tastings and things like that
with customers as well as with staff, and itcreates more community moments.
And so, I did that and then, you know, keptmoving forward and eventually left Starbucks,
went to Coffee Bean.
Coffee Bean was a very wild and fast experiencefor me.

(17:04):
I was at, like, I think four stores in, like,under a year, maybe a year and some change.
And again, like, just everywhere I went, I waskind of just getting a little bit deeper into
the coffee aspect of it.
Coffee Bean was actually the first time thoughthat I dived into tea because they're Coffee
Bean and Tea Leaf.
And so I did their, like, roastery tour.

(17:25):
We learned so much about tea and so much moreabout coffee in doing the roastery tour, and
that kind of just like leveled me up evenfurther and like, I really wanna know what
happens before it gets to us because we'll talkabout this in the shop all the time, right,
where you're the last 10 feet of the coffee.
This was the first time that I was seeingsomething that represented what happens before

(17:45):
that 10 feet.
And so, like, seeing that roastery experiencereally, like, opened my mind to, man, I wanna
see so much more.
I wanna know so much more.
I really wanna experience, like, what's thefirst 10 feet like?
What happens there?
And I've always had this, like, interest injust, like, nature in general.
And so I think it, like, took me down this roadof study, and everything just kinda kept

(18:08):
evolving.
And so then eventually, like, after CoffeeBean, I went to Nordstrom because I really
wanted to, like, get some good managementexperience, and feel like I could run a
business well.
And, from Nordstrom and all the things thatthey taught me, I ended up at Klatch Coffee,
which is honestly one of the goldenopportunities.
For someone like me who's pursuing coffee at agreater scale, to be able to work with the

(18:31):
Perry family.
And, like, when I say work with the Perryfamily, I would say probably for, like, the
first year and a half of being there, I wouldsee and be alongside one of the Perrys, at
least once a day.
Like, whether it was just like they just cameinto the store to get a cup of coffee or, like,

(18:53):
Heather bringing her kids in because she wantedhot chocolates for them.
At least once a day, I'm running into a Perry,and all of them are champions, like barista
champion, roasting champion, latte artchampion, brewing champion.
The amount of just, like, natural coffeeknowledge that comes out of their mouth without

(19:13):
thinking about it was just like it was likeDisneyland to me.
And there were definitely challenges to the jobfor sure.
Like we opened a brand new drive-thru wherethey've never had a drive-thru in the company
before.
And that was my job to make it successful.
And so there were so many challenges, but also,like, the guy who virtually taught me how to do

(19:33):
pour-overs was Todd Goldsworthy, who is HollyPerry's husband and a two-time U.S.
brewing champion.
And I was, like, getting to work alongside himonce or twice a week.
And so, like, it just again, I kept takingsteps towards myself, and the path just sort of
opened up for me in terms of, hey.
Here's what's next because you just pursuedwhat you were interested in.

(19:57):
Mhmm.
Wow.
That's two things I wanna kinda double-click onthere.
One is, coffee as a mode for social change,which is really interesting and something that
with my company Wind and Sea, we've also kindof dove into because we donate to a lot of

(20:19):
veteran surf therapy and veteran nonprofits.
I realized that I got injured while I was inthe military, and I kinda found that there was
a lot lacking in the chronic disease and injurywithin the Western model for medicine.

(20:42):
So that's what kind of got me finding a lot ofother holistic paths, but more so than just
like, I'm not independently wealthy, I wouldn'tbe able to just donate a bunch of money, but I
could use my business as a vehicle for thatchange and to give back to the community that I
cared about.
And another thing that you said that was reallyinteresting was talking about how when you get

(21:07):
to a coffee shop, you've really only, you know,explored the last 10 feet of coffee.
That was an eye-opening experience for me as Istarted getting into the science of roasting,
the science of processing, and just cultivationin general.
Because it's incredible how many artisans andhow much expertise that coffee cherry, the

(21:32):
plants, the cherry, the seed, how many stepsalong the way all the way up to the roaster,
which has dedicated their life to learning thiscraft.
And then you get to your barista who's alsodedicated their life or at least a good portion
of their career into making this cup that 99percent of people kind of take for granted as

(21:54):
just you. So
as just you. So I think that's a really cool, avery similar kind of like, wow, like there's a
lot more to this.
Have you ever read the book, The Monk of Mocha?
No.
Are you familiar with it?
First time in life I've heard the name of it.
Oh, dude, you gotta check this out.
It's awesome.
So quick little synopsis of it.
It's you know how they say that coffeeoriginated in Ethiopia?

(22:19):
Right.
Well, this guy, this happened in like the early2000s, but he was a kid who grew up in Yemen.
And there's like a little bit of a debatebetween if coffee actually started in Ethiopia
or if it started in Yemen.
Yeah.
And this kid comes from the village wheresupposedly coffee originally started.

(22:43):
And at this time, there was the whole, like,Yemeni civil war going on over there.
So this kid had to, like, smuggle some coffeebeans out through past warlords and all this
stuff.
And he eventually gets the coffee into theworld circuit and he starts getting a lot of
recognition and kind of bringing the attentionto, you know, Yemen as a place on the map for

(23:08):
coffee.
So
That's awesome.
That sounds like something you and Perry woulddo.
Totally.
My Perry a % would be like, if this is a greatcoffee, I don't care what it takes.
I'm getting it into the U.S.
Yeah.
Oh, shit.
So what eventually led you to Ox CoffeeRoasters, and what makes it special compared to

(23:30):
other roasters in San Diego?
A few things.
It was kind of a ten-year plan.
I felt like San Diego was just this place thatI would come to, and I would feel, like,
comfortable and at peace and at home in.
And I felt like everything that was happeningin LA for me, was always just a reminder that

(23:51):
this was not home, which is weird because it'swhere I grew up.
I grew up all over LA, but I never felt like LAwas where I was gonna be able to set up, like,
roots for my long-term life.
And I felt like San Diego just had opportunitythat was untapped, especially because I think
pre-pandemic, the coffee culture down here wasincredible.

(24:14):
There were, you know, so many different, like,coffee events and so much coffee education that
was happening, which makes sense.
There are so many, like, micro roasteries downhere and so many small, you know, family-owned
shops instead of, like, huge chains.
At the time, I think pre-pandemic, the biggestchain down here was Coffee Bean, and Better
Buzz and then obviously Starbucks.
But Better Buzz was more synonymous with SanDiego than any of those chains because it was a

(24:39):
homegrown chain that grew out.
And then you had all these other tons of localroasters, but it was a very rich coffee
culture.
And then something in the pandemic happenedthat just, like, shifted that.
And a lot of that probably is, you know, thepandemic limited community.
It really pushed us apart from each other.
And so then we had to learn new ways to livelife and new ways to interact with people.

(25:04):
And I think that that's where it made it hardto just, like, bounce back because coffee is
one of those things where it's like doing lifetogether.
Oftentimes, right, like people have theirmeetings, they sometimes virtually work here,
they have girls' night, and they have datenight and all those different things.
Kids come before and after school to study.

(25:25):
And those were things that, like, I've alwaysloved about coffee shops.
It's just like the natural community space thatit creates.
So then, like, post-pandemic, I would just keepcoming down to San Diego just to, like,
especially, I think even during the pandemicbecause, like, they just threw the rules out
the window and they're like, it's a socialdistance out here.
We'll do whatever we want.

(25:46):
And so, like, I worked the entire pandemic.
My store was hoping to open the whole year.
And by the grace of God, we ended up in theblack at the end of the year.
But we, because I worked the entire time and,like, I was there, I was the only one on my
entire team who did not get COVID the entiretime.

(26:07):
But when my team would get COVID because of,like, the social—not die, but when they would
get COVID because of social distancing rules,we had to, like, we had people in pods.
And so, like, a whole team of six peoplebasically were like, okay, you're not available
to work.
So then, like, my days became extra-long days.
And so whenever I had my days off, I would belike, I'm leaving town.

(26:30):
I don't want to be bothered by my team.
And I also don't want them to feel crippled bymy presence.
Just meaning if they knew I was still in town,they would call me for little things that they
solve themselves if they just, like, feltempowered.
And so when I was like, I'm going to San Diegofor the weekend, they literally would not
bother me unless the store was, like, floodingor something.

(26:51):
And so they became stronger as leadershipwithout me during that time, and I got to just
kind of get away and spend more time withmyself.
But during the pandemic, I accidentally—youknow, I'm really good with, like, knowing
exactly how much money I have and, like,exactly what's going into my savings and

(27:12):
exactly what's going into my bills.
And so because I had, like, a surplus of moneyduring the pandemic because I was working but
not doing any social things, and then we got,like, the, you know, the COVID bonus pay in
addition to that.
My natural thought was I forgot to pay mystudent loans.
So then I would, like, pay them twice, threetimes and ended up, like, paying off a

(27:37):
significant chunk of my student loans duringthe pandemic and got to the point where, like,
my decision to move to San Diego accelerated bytwo years because I had paid off so much extra.
And so I kinda reached my ceiling at Klatch,and I felt like I was ready for a journey that
was gonna stretch me a little further to get meto really my ultimate long-term goals in

(27:59):
coffee.
And it just felt like the time to look.
And I told Klatch this when I got hired there.
I've told my bosses here this when I got hiredhere that every year, right around my birthday,
I look for jobs.
Every year.
And it doesn't mean that I'm unhappy with thejob that I have, but it does a couple things.
One, it validates that where I am is where Iwanna be.

(28:22):
Should I get a job, and I don't take it?
Also, it validates that maybe where I am iswhere I need to be because I'm not getting
offered jobs, and so I'm not quite ready totake that next step.
And also, you know, if I do decide to stay herewherever I am, then happy birthday to me.
You've now, like, had another year around thesun where you're really excited about the space

(28:45):
that you're in.
Or if I take on a new job.
Also, happy birthday to me because I'm takingthis next big step in my life, and this is an
exciting closing of that chapter.
And so, leaving Klatch was really difficult inthe sense that nothing was going terribly
wrong.
Like, my store was performing well.
I was one of the top-performing stores in thecompany.

(29:07):
This was the third store that I ran.
I had trained and developed so many leaders andmanagers.
Like, I was just I was doing good.
And I think that, you know, even had I stayed,like, another year, I may have been in the
opportunity that I was kind of looking for.
But I also knew that, like, I had reached myceiling and it was time for me to take a risk

(29:27):
and invest in myself.
And I also knew that San Diego was somethingthat I was like, until I pay off my student
loans, I'm not going.
And so all of that happened at the same timeand this job opportunity, I came down here
during San Diego Pride and someone reached outand wanted to talk to me about a potential
opportunity.
And so I was like, okay.

(29:48):
We can have a conversation.
And I literally, like, they had offered, andthen I said, here's what I want on top of the
offer.
Like, your offer is not enough.
And it was things that I was, like, so surethey would not say yes to.
So I was just like, I'm just gonna throw it outthere.
And they said yes to everything.
And it was like, again, I gave them a range ofthings and they went to the top of the range.

(30:14):
So they, like, really just were after me in agood way.
And I was like, well, they called my bluff, soI think I have to go do this.
I think that it's the time.
It's the exact right time.
And so, I left and I moved down here.
I worked with a shop called Queenstown VillageCafe, in La Jolla.
So Queenstown has, like, six restaurants in theSan Diego area, and they opened their first

(30:36):
patio coffee bar in La Jolla, and I helped justelevate some things that were not necessarily
where it needed to be and correct some thingsthat were going wrong.
So I was with them for about six months, andthen I came down to Ox.
And Ox kind of became this thing, thisopportunity for me to put my own signature on

(30:57):
something from the inception.
Queenstown was already started and already hadsome version of a vision, and I was there to
kinda help make that vision come true.
Ox was like a blank canvas.
We had very little things that were in place interms of what we wanted to be.
We knew that we wanted roasting because we'repart of a hospitality group, and so we wanted

(31:19):
to bring roasting in-house for the hospitalitygroup.
And we knew that we wanted a cafe that had anelevated coffee concept.
And especially in Mission Valley, we wanted tostand out as someone who was providing a better
or a more signature and artisan coffeeexperience.
I often tell people because in third wavecoffee, there really is, like, another two

(31:42):
waves.
Right?
Like, here's, like, third wave coffee isMcDonald's is third wave coffee now.
Right?
Third wave literally means, yeah, it means thatwe manipulated the coffee somehow.
So if you had to push a button to craft thisbeverage, you're a third wave coffee.
And so there is three, four, and five thatexist.

(32:02):
Like, five to me is like the mod bars.
It's the I'm doing every single part of this.
We did the roasting.
We do the sourcing.
We even maybe hire the distributors.
So we visit the farms like all of that.
That's like your fifth wave.
Right?
Fourth wave is kind of like where we kind ofstart existing right now in Ox, and that is,

(32:24):
you know, we're doing so much of the we'redoing a lot of the roasting, but, like, my
staff or not a lot.
We're doing the roasting.
But my staff doesn't know the roast profilingeven though I have a small staff.
Right?
I'm working with that, and I'm growing in thatspace and working with other roasters who fully
understand it.

(32:45):
We are sourcing through InterAmerican.
So there's, like, a there's a space in betweenus between the farm.
But, also, they're a trusted voice, and so wedon't necessarily look at them as, like, oh,
like, you're just sending us, like, whatevercrap.
We know that they're sending good productsbecause they've been known to send good product
and properly vet it.

(33:07):
But we are crafting all the beverages.
You know, we teach milk steaming.
We teach how to properly pull shots.
My team knows how to dial in, and they know thelanguage and some of the science behind what's
going on.
And so, like, they are coffee professionals.
They're not just, like, you know, pushing abutton and, like, things are automated for
them.
Like, that to me is where third wave is.

(33:28):
And so I think that's the difference in Ox interms of especially in Mission Valley, I don't
think you're gonna find a shop that's doingexactly what we're doing or close to what we're
doing.
But I think the biggest difference that webring is the community aspect.
And again, even when I interviewed here, I toldthem these are things that matter most to me.

(33:49):
It's like, if you think about it, I say this sooften, but it's always true.
Every cup of coffee is just like less than ahandful of beans and somehow less than a
handful of beans are bringing people togetherall over the world to do life every single day.
Right?
So that's so powerful.
And if we forget the community part is what ismost natural about coffee, then I think that we

(34:12):
lose track of, like, how beautiful thisindustry really is.
And for me, on a more personal note, like,coffee is a part of nature.
It's something that it was literally a giftfrom God that creates community.
And in the Bible, that's like the main thingthat God tells us about is to love God and love
people.
And so we have this vehicle that came out ofthe earth that was discovered on accident that

(34:35):
brings people together.
I wanna honor that across the board.
Dude, that's beautiful.
You know, I want to ask kind of a follow-upregarding San Diego's coffee culture in
relation to the pandemic.
So what I was gonna ask was, how do you thinkSan Diego compares to more traditional places

(35:00):
like Seattle or even Boston or maybe New York?
I'm not too familiar with some of the other bigcoffee hubs, but I always kind of felt that San
Diego is similar to their microbrew beer scene,you know, with so many microbreweries out here.

(35:24):
Yeah.
And it really puts San Diego on the map as ahub for specialty microbrewed beer.
Yeah.
Would you say that San Diego is still kind oflike that?
And do you think it can recover from that dipfrom the pandemic?
Hey.
I hope that people don't hear this and hate mefor saying it.

(35:45):
When I came down here and moved down here, Itypically try to visit 50 coffee shops a year,
whether that's during travel for competition orlike I just spoke at Coffee Fest in New York
last week.
And so I got to hit two other coffee shopswhile I was there.
But pre-pandemic, and I just don't know.
Maybe this was me not understanding coffee atthe level that I understand it now.

(36:10):
Pre-pandemic, I thought that coffee, not justthe culture, but the quality was significantly
better than what it is now.
In San Diego, there are a lot of small shopsand not a lot of quality coffee experiences.

(36:32):
And for me personally, I've had thisconversation with customers of ours too that,
like, if what I'm serving you is the same thingas what you get at Starbucks, then I don't see
a reason for you to be here.
Be it Starbucks.
Right?
Like, it's probably gonna move faster there.
You know exactly what you're gonna get there.
Like, I have friends that work in this level ofthe industry and hire that compete with me, and

(36:56):
they'll be like, I'll still go to Starbuckswhen I travel because I know what I'm gonna
get.
Like, it may not be the best cup of coffee, butat least I know the experience is always gonna
be that experience.
Right?
And so, like, if I take a risk on a coffee shopin my local neighborhood because I wanna try to
support local, the local's not giving meanything different than what I could have
gotten at Starbucks at Coffee Bean at BetterBuzz, then, like, what's the point?

(37:19):
Like, now we're just sort of dividing theindustry for no good reason.
And so there are some really great coffeeexperiences in San Diego, and there's good
coffee culture that's growing.
We teach coffee education here.
So we do like lots of classes and espresso andbrewing classes, and we've had like coffee

(37:42):
cocktail classes and date, like date nightevents, but they sell out like all the time.
And I often find people that are like, oh,yeah.
I wanted to go to one, but it was in LA.
And so there is also a desire for coffeeculture down here that exists.
I just think that, like, something shifted andit's not being met properly.
And we like, we have a customer that lives inChula Vista that comes up every Saturday

(38:07):
because they're like, the coffee in Chula Vistais not this.
Right?
And so and I had a friend who works who juststarted working with a roasting business,
basically.
And so he's one of their, like, L.A.
sales reps.
He came to visit me, like, maybe a couple weeksago right before competition, just to hang out.

(38:29):
And he went to six or seven shops that day, andhe was like, there's not a single good cup of
coffee that I've had today.
And he was, I didn't wanna fully believe youthat there was no good coffee in San Diego or
there's, like, very little good coffee in SanDiego.
But I think the reality is there's a lot ofshops.
There's a lot of hunger for quality coffee andquality coffee experiences.

(38:52):
But maybe there's just not enough understandingof the people manipulating coffee to have that
same experience.
But all of that being said, beauty is in theeye of the beholder and these shops exist and
they exist in spades.
And so there is definitely a customer base outhere that appreciates all the different

(39:14):
varieties of coffee that are being offered inSan Diego.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
That makes sense.
So I wanna talk a little bit about yourcompetition drinks.
So your competition drinks are wild, but in agood way.
And where does that inspiration come from?
What's your creative process like?
And what's the story behind the orangedreamsicle?

(39:37):
Oh, man.
All of my competition drinks come from one oftwo places.
There is either most places are there's aningredient that I did not like that I wanted to
find out how to make it palatable to me andgreat for other people.
That is like the majority of the drinks I'vemade was like, oh, I hate this thing.

(39:57):
So like, I now need to turn it into somethinggreat.
And then the other half of it is I just maybehad a conversation or heard a term somewhere in
an episode of like Chopped or Iron Chef andthought, oh, I could turn that into a drink and
then like went and slept and woke up the nextday and was fully inspired and knew exactly how

(40:18):
I was going to craft it.
So it's a combination of those two things.
And then it's literally like Heather and HollyPerry used to kind of like have a love-hate
relationship with my creativity when I workedat Klatch, because I would have, like, maybe
every week I would be submitting a drink tothem and be like, I got a new drink.

(40:40):
I got a new drink.
Like because my goal was I wanted to have adrink on every single seasonal menu for an
entire year.
Like, my whole year, just Chris's drinks.
And so I just kept submitting things.
But I also learned like there was one pointwhich Heather was like, are you doing okay?
And I was like, yeah.
And she was like, okay, you haven't tried togive me a drink in a couple of weeks.

(41:03):
I was like, well, like, I just felt like, oh, Iwanted to stop because you kept saying no to
everything.
And then she was like, because your drinks are,like, not really cafe friendly.
They're good drinks.
They're just not cafe-friendly drinks.
Baristas can't replicate them or they're tooexpensive or whatever the case was.
And I was like, oh, I can do something withthat.
And so then learning how to refine them tothis, like, what can I do on cafe, versus what

(41:26):
can I do on stage?
Those became the reality of, like, how I craftdrinks now.
And so the orange creamsicle literally was,like, one of those things that how it started
and how it ended were two different things, butthe innovation and the creation of that drink
was based on, like, just recounting personalexperience of going to Ruby's Diner.

(41:49):
Whenever I was at the beach and, like, growingup in SoCal and especially kind of growing up
in the hood, going to the beach was, like, not,it was not this thing that, like, I got to do
regularly.
So it was a thing that I fully appreciatedwhenever I did.
And now I get to go to the beach all the time.
Like, as an adult, I've kinda learned how topivot my life in the way that I get to
celebrate more of the things that I wannacelebrate and not make them a luxury.

(42:13):
But as a kid and as a teenager, whenever I wentto, like, Ruby's, like, I would get the orange
dreamsicle shake, and then I would get somefrench fries and just dip it in there.
Like, I want to say there's been a time or twoin my life that I've actually had a burger on
their menu.
I can't remember a burger to save my life.
Like, I don't know what it tastes like.
I don't know what they put on their burgers,but I do know the shake, and I know that I dip

(42:36):
the french fries in it every single time.
And so yeah.
So that was that was the creation of the drinkwas I wanted to on stage as much as possible
share this experience that I had that wasvaluable to me, with the judges and with the
spectators that were there.
And then, you know, we got sixth place in thenation last year with the combination of drinks

(43:01):
that I did on the stage.
And so we introduced that drink into ourrestaurants because it was the only one that
was, again, cafe friendly.
So, all the other drinks, they're like, what ifwe did this drink?
And I was like, there's just no possible waythat you guys can accomplish this drink on,
like, a like, if a customer if you have everytable order, like, two or three of these

(43:22):
cocktails, like, your bartender is gonna beglued to the bar the entire time and doing
nothing else.
And so it's like, there's no way that's gonnahappen, but I think this one works.
And so, we choose you to What's
In it?
And it it's done well.
What's in it?
What's, like, your the general recipe?
You know, the most seasoned got
I think the way that we're serving it at theRise and Shine Hospitality restaurant, so

(43:48):
that's Breakfast Company and BreakfastRepublic.
I think Breakfast Company might have stoppedserving it, but Breakfast Republic still does.
It has vodka, Kahlua, some vanilla syrup, andorange peel.
And then it's shaken much like a kind ofespresso martini, just not as, you know,

(44:11):
vigorously and not to create that sameexperience, strained over ice and then drizzled
with a little bit of, like, half and half ontop just to kind of add a little extra
creaminess and sort of produce a flavor of,like, white chocolate.
And then there's espresso in it as well.
So there's kind of a lot of different flavorsgoing on in there.

(44:31):
When I did it on stage, it was a vodka andgin-based drink with a little bit of triple
sec, but we had to change some of those thingsto get it to be cafe friendly.
That makes sense.
Wow.
That sounds really good, dude.
I have to come give it a go.
I'm a big fan of, like, love carajillos.
Yeah.
They're delicious.

(44:52):
I do a little one just to get home, but I kindof discovered the, like, shaken coffee drinks,
you know, a little bit like vanilla and like,yeah.
Getting that frothiness to it, it really doesadd like a new dynamic just to, like, you know,
people mostly just think of, like, adding alittle bit of cream to their coffee, but the
essence of shaking it up adds a whole otherdimension in my opinion.

(45:16):
Yeah.
And it's like, there's so many variables whenyou're shaking.
Right?
Because the amount of ice you're using, howcold the ice is, what kind of ice it is.
Like, I've honestly found for my espressomartinis, like, my favorite way to shake is
with a cube instead of with chipped ice or kindof broken down ice because the cube dilutes

(45:37):
slower.
Yeah.

(45:59):
That's yeah.
Right.
Right.
Straight up.

(46:30):
Oh my god.
It went.
Okay.
So now I want to kind of pivot to some of howdaily rituals.
We talk a lot about how daily rituals shapewellness.
So what is your daily coffee ritual andwellness ritual?
How do you kind of stay creative and sharp insuch a fast-paced industry, especially when

(46:55):
you're working super long days?
Like you said, you're only halfway through yourday.
It's 2 o'clock over here.
Yeah.
I don't have a daily coffee ritual, I knowthat, like, people would be like, what do you
mean?
But I've been in the coffee industry for, like,almost 20 years now.
I've had so many coffees, like, so many coffeesjust in New York Coffee Fest last week alone.

(47:18):
Like, I probably in, like, one day wentthrough, like, 20-something coffee beverages.
Could you not?
And so coffee for me has always been this,like, fun thing when it's like tasting and
evaluating, experimenting with.
And so, you know, if I have a friend that givesme a bag of coffee and they're like, oh, we
have this new thing.

(47:38):
I'm gonna play with that.
Like, I'm gonna play with it.
Like, I have so much coffee equipment at homeand, like, it'll be like an everyday thing.
But in terms of, like, just my normal ritual,outside of I taste coffee every single day, and
I always encourage shop owners and shop runnersand even, like, my new shift lead manager here.

(47:58):
Like, whatever coffee we're brewing, just tasteit.
Make sure it's, like, still good.
Make sure it's good quality that we're givingout.
Like, sometimes things channel when you'rebrewing a batch of coffee and, like, otherwise,
like, you weighed out the right amount.
But something went wrong and it channeled andyou've got this crappy cup, but now you've got
this crappy cup that several customers aregetting.

(48:19):
Right?
And so, I always taste coffee.
Like, I'll literally just, like, take a sip ofit.
Be like, cool.
We're good to go.
We're ready to go for the day.
But my, you know, my coffee ritual, like,leading up to competition is, like, when I pick
up the most rituals, and it will typically be,like, I will do a pour-over every single day,

(48:39):
and I have, like, a theme of the month.
And so, like, not last month, but the monthbefore, I was just brewing old coffee.
Like, I had so much old coffee in my house thatI was like, I really wanna, like, play with
coffees that have been at least six to eightmonths on and just seeing, like, what could I
do with it?

(48:59):
What kind of quality could I bring out of it?
With a pour-over, with a full immersion, with ahybrid of it because we have so many hybrids
now, which is amazing.
But doing just different water temperatures,things like that, just getting creative in the
way that I express, the manipulation of aspecific coffee.

(49:20):
And that to me is what allows creativity tokeep going, because it's not necessarily I'm
not looking for an end result.
Right?
Like, I'm just looking to just sit around andplay in the sand and go, maybe I make a
sandcastle today, but also maybe I just, like,bury someone in the sand.
And then maybe I just, like, have, like, astarfish that I do in the sand and, like,

(49:42):
that's okay.
Or maybe, like, my sandcastle has a moat today,but maybe it doesn't have a moat because I
actually don't know how to build a moat.
Like and I thought I did yesterday, but Ilearned.
I don't know what that is.
So, I think just just having fun withouthaving, sort of an object goal is super

(50:02):
important for me with coffee.
I think that's what keeps me the most creative.
And what have you kind of learned from yourexperiment with, you know, I don't want to say
expired, but let's say coffee that's kind of onits way out.
If you have a tip for, you know, maybe somebodyin their pantry pulls out, oh, crap.
I forgot I had this bag.
How do I make it taste better?

(50:24):
Good coffee is good coffee, and bad coffee isbad coffee is what I've more than anything
learned.
Yeah.
It will, like, the more that it ages, the moresort of one-noted and flat the coffee becomes.
Right?
And so it may have had, like, flavor notes inthe first, like, week or two and maybe even up
to, like, that fourth week off roast.

(50:45):
But then after that, it just starts to, like,concentrate.
So you don't have these micro flavor notesanymore.
You have macro flavor notes.
It's like, oh, it's just berry or it's justchocolate.
But it's also if it's a good cup of coffee, ifit's well extracted, it's still going to be
well balanced and super tasty.
Right?
Or it's going to be really unpleasant in yourmouthfeel and really unpleasant in, like, the

(51:08):
drinking experience, and you wanna maybe coverit up with, like, creamer sugar.
And I'm not that guy.
I'm a black coffee drinker.
And so if you gave me a coffee that you werelike, it's better with this, then I
automatically know I don't like it at all.
Like, it's just, it's not going to appeal tome.
And so I've learned that for sure.
But I've also learned, like, one, it's almostentirely hard with a good coffee to find a

(51:36):
French press version of that that does notwork.
Right?
So the older your coffee gets, the more it'slike you have to go finer on a grind size for a
pour over maybe.
But realistically, like, a Clever Dripper is agreat option.
The Hario Switch is a great option.
A French press is a great option.
A Turkish boiler is a great option.
Like, moka pots, all those different things arereally good options to, like, go this is no

(51:59):
longer a pour over worthy coffee, but it is afull immersion brew coffee.
And then the same thing with, like, cold brews.
I love playing with different cold brew optionsand, like, getting fancy about it.
Right?
Like, cold brewing with coconut water insteadof regular water, cold brewing with vodka
instead of regular water, and then dilutingthat way and just, like, figuring out, like,

(52:20):
what does that bring out of the coffee if Ichange different things?
I personally brew coffee at home, more oftenthan not with Essentia water because I love the
pH level.
I love the calcium and magnesium infusions, andit tends to clarify fruit flavors in the coffee
and also just bring a nice creaminess to thetexture of the coffee, but it doesn't work for
every coffee.

(52:40):
It works for a majority of coffees, but I'velearned with a lot of new fermentations that it
doesn't play with it well.
And so ultimately, playtime whenever you'replaying with it.
But like as your coffee ages, you just have toknow that like, my scope of the things that I
could do with this coffee is shrinking as itages.

(53:00):
That's really interesting.
That actually leads me to my next question,which is about the future of specialty coffee.
Where do you see the industry kind of going?
I think that smart people in the industryfigured out maybe 10 or 15 years ago that
coffee and tea are supposed to be integrated.

(53:22):
They are not separate industries, and they playvery, very well together.
And so if you are one of those coffee peersthat's like, we don't care about tea.
We don't care about this.
Then, like, you are alienating a customer basethat is, like, naturally supposed to be with
you.
I think the same thing when it comes to like, Imean, you've probably seen this all over San

(53:43):
Diego.
There's now starting to be these bars that havelike a coffee shop in the morning and then
they're a bar in the nighttime.
It's becoming bigger in SoCal, just maximizingthe use of a space, right?
Like that is becoming huge in the coffeeindustry and I think that's also where we're
going.
And then there's just kind of this weird, yeah,I think weird is a good word for it.

(54:05):
We're in a weird space right now where there'sa battle between what was and what is becoming,
and that's this, like, whole co-fermentationthing of, like, we are doing something to the
coffee after it's been grown and dried.
And right before it's roasted, we're addinganother space into it.

(54:26):
So, it changes their coffee in the sense that,like, if I'm soaking this coffee in, like,
watermelon juice for 48 hours, I'm impartingflavor into the coffee after it's been dried
and right before it's been roasted.
And maybe so, like, when I get on stage and Icall a watermelon note, well, of course,

(54:49):
because I added watermelon juice into thecoffee for 48 hours.
But also, it brings out other notes in thecoffee and they use, you know, things within
this, like, whether they're soaking it in guavaor mango or watermelon or lemon or whatever the
case is, wine, champagne.
Right?
It does something with the chemical biochemicalmakeup of that ingredient and the coffee

(55:10):
together does something to bring out evengreater things in the coffee.
Right?
So there's the peers in the coffee nation thatare like, that's not a thing that shouldn't
exist.
And then there's the new wave of innovation incoffee that's going, but like, but what if it
does exist in a very positive way?
And so I think all of those things are valid,but I think that that's where the coffee

(55:33):
industry right now is trying to figure out,like, where do the where's the end.
Right?
Because there's this and there's this, and bothsides are kind of saying or or there but, but
we're trying to find out where that and is.
Yeah.
That's super cool.
You know, I see a lot of, you know, espressoshots being pulled through an orange or a piece

(55:56):
of fruit or something like that.
And what you were kind of saying too, you know,like experimenting with, you know, what if we,
you know, put some orange peel and shake it up,we'll use a big ice cube, you know, that's kind
of the direction that I see it moving in.
And, you know, in my business, we work withinfusing coffee with functional mushrooms and

(56:17):
other adaptogens to kind of not only I thinkthe flavor of the coffee is super important,
but I'm coming from it from how do we alsoimprove the effects of the coffee as a chemical
that you are ingesting for a specific reason.
But what I've found is that, you know, there'scompanies like Four Sigmatic and RYZE and

(56:40):
MudWtr and Everyday Dose and some of theseother brands, but none of them have really
tried to preserve the coffee essence and, youknow, coffee from their perspective is purely a
vehicle to get you these other benefits.
Whereas I think there's still an opportunity tomake the coffee come through, you know, let's

(57:02):
be a coffee-first drink, but improve the wayone can feel with it.
Yeah.
And we kind of talked about this a little bitwhen you gave me some samples of just like, I
want to make sure that, like, as I'm playingwith these, I'm not dishonoring the coffee, but
I'm also not dishonoring the product of, like,this mushroom product is amazing, right?

(57:25):
And it's so good for customers.
But I want to make sure that I'm making a drinkthat the customer is, one, going to be super
receptive of, and then they're also going tobenefit so much from because it's not gonna
shift them.
I think this happens a lot too with justroasters and coffee.
They will go and cup and score a coffee, butthen they never, like, brew their coffee the

(57:46):
way the customer would brew it at home.
And so they don't know what the customerexperience is, and you're basically telling the
customer, this is the experience you'resupposed to have.
So instead of you liking what you like, youneed to like what we tell you to like, right?
And I think that's where we can fail in thisindustry is when we stop thinking about what's
most important is how the customer is gonnareceive this.

(58:08):
And so when we're talking about infusingmushrooms into coffee or infusing coffee into
mushrooms, like that infusion is superimportant.
It's so good for the customer to, like, havethose benefits from both sides of it.
But we also have to understand, like, what wethink is important for them.
Like, it's like the mom that hides the broccoliin the milkshake.

(58:30):
Right?
We have to make sure that the milkshake showsup for the customer.
So if my customer is a mushroom coffee drinkerand I'm trying to infuse espresso into their
drink, I don't want them to have an experiencethat is so far off from their mushroom coffee
experience that they're turned off.
In the same way, if my customer is an Americanodrinker and I'm trying to infuse mushrooms in

(58:53):
because I know that this is good for them, Iwant them to still have their Americano, and I
want them to have those benefits as well.
I need to hide the broccoli in the shakesomewhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
And also balance the business side of thingstoo.
Because like you said, it can't just be thisone-of-one creation.

(59:14):
It's gotta be scalable.
It's gotta make financial sense and it's gottabe scalable and applicable.
Yeah.
So let's move to a little bit of just like whatkeeps you grounded personally.
Is there a daily practice or mindset shift thathelps you stay present and creative?

(59:34):
Yeah.
I mean, there's a few things.
I pretty much live in the gym.
I'm there at least four days a week, buttypically it's six.
It just became a discipline.
I saw a picture of myself when I went climbingwith some friends in 2020, and I was like,
that's not what I thought I looked like.
So, definitely have shifted for that reason,and it's been such a positive thing.

(01:00:02):
And then in addition to that, I really lovereading.
My mom's an educator, and I was, I'm a formereducator and worked in paraeducation.
And so we would challenge our students to reada certain amount of books a year, and I would
join them in that journey or go further just tokind of make sure like I was leading the
charge.
And so I tried to, in addition to my 50 coffeeshops here, try to read 50 books a year.

(01:00:24):
And some of those are rereads.
Like, one of my books that I read every singleyear is called The Giving Tree.
It's this silly little book that basicallytalks about how, like, this tree just kinda
gives off its leaves and gives off shade andall these different things.
But it just reminds me on the smallest scale tojust like, to be present with people around me
and to be open and charitable with the giftsthat I have to give, even if they seem small

(01:00:51):
and insignificant, it may be big to otherpeople.
And so like, it's and this is a I think thisbook is like a third, fourth-grade reading
level.
So this is not like a novel, but it's one of mybooks that I read every year because the
concept and the principles behind it aresomething I want to remind myself of.
And so, yeah, like, I read 50 books a year asmuch as possible.

(01:01:14):
I also am like a podcast, like, fiend, but ithas to be good stuff.
Like and I I like, I'm a TED Talk guy.
Like, I love TED Talks for sure, but, like, Ican't listen to them all the time because I
can't, like, the crazy thing with, like, TEDTalks is there's so many different, like,
avenues that they go, and I can't fix all of meall at the same time.

(01:01:38):
So I have to be like, right now, in this seasonof life, this is what I'm working on, and I can
accept these TED Talks and their relation tothem.
But like everything from, like, Amanda Sealeshas a podcast that I love, that I've been
listening to.
It's called Small Doses, and she goes through arange of a bunch of different things.
I have been listening to a bunch of differentcoffee podcasts.

(01:02:02):
There's, like, six of them.
And so when I'm at the gym, I just kinda putthem on as white noise.
And then, like, one that I recently beenintroduced to, which is, it's really funny.
It sounds weird, but it's hilarious.
It's definitely an adult podcast, but it'scalled My Dad Wrote a Porno.
I kid you not.
It's so funny.

(01:02:23):
This guy, his dad, like, randomly decided towrite this adult novel.
It's really bad.
It's poorly written.
There's terrible grammar, and there's, like, nogood storyline to it whatsoever.
And this though, I think the wife discovered itand then gave it to the son to read or
something like that.
And so the son read it, thought it was awful,and then decided, I wanna share this with my

(01:02:47):
friends on a live podcast.
So his friends are hearing the story for thefirst time on each episode, and they're, like,
just talking and interjecting into it.
And it's just it's so poorly written, but it'sso funny.
And it literally, like, reminds me of, like,when celebrities talk about how when they have
to have, like, makeout scenes or something likethat on set, how unsexy it is because it's so

(01:03:09):
rehearsed and it's, like, really awkwardbecause there's, like, 30 people in the room.
Yeah.
Like, that's what listening to this podcastfeels like.
It feels like the most unsexy version of thistopic whatsoever, but it is, like, wild.
Like, I will be in the gym, like, literallymid-lift and then, like, dying laughing so I

(01:03:30):
have to, like, put down the bar because I'mgonna crush myself.
It is such a great podcast.
That's so funny.
They're just roasting this guy's dad.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Like, did wonders for his book, actually.
You know?
The book is, like, actually available topurchase if you just wanna read it by yourself.
But I'm like, at this point, I don't even wannaknow what the actual novel is supposed to be.

(01:03:51):
I just wanna know this version of it.
That's that's awesome.
If you could serve one drink to someone who'snever had specialty coffee before, what would
it be and why?
Oh.
So in the 2018-19 season of the U.S.

(01:04:13):
Coffee Championships, that was when I firststarted working for Klatch.
My friend Jen Hong had a Colombian Geishacalled Colombia Finca La Maria that she was
taking to the U.S.
Brewer's stage.
She had previously competed in brewers and beenin the top 10, and so we already knew that she
was capable of doing great things.

(01:04:34):
And this Geisha was so phenomenal.
To this day, it is one of my favorite cups ofcoffee I've ever had in my life.
Oh, wow.
And, like, literally, I think the next year,they sent the same Geisha, but a different
crop, different season.
And like my first thought when I tasted it, andlike Mike Perry teased me about this, but I was

(01:04:59):
like, this is trash.
And he was like, that's a really good cup ofcoffee.
It's really expensive.
It's definitely not trash.
And I was like, so, so right.
It's not trash, but it's definitely not.
It's not that Colombia Finca La Maria.
And so if I have to say something to someone,it would be that cup of coffee blew my mind.

(01:05:19):
And really great cup of coffee in thisindustry, but it was the most phenomenal coffee
that I've had in my entire life to date.
Interesting.
And pour-over, was that how?
Yeah.
She was doing it on the Kalita Wave with theglass decanter, which has actually become one
of my favorite ways of brewing coffee.
Oh, that's rad.

(01:05:42):
Now we're kinda wrapping up, but what's next instore for you and your career and where do you
see yourself in five and ten years and whatlegacy do you wanna leave behind?
Yeah.
So I think honestly, what's next is just kindof diving a little bit deeper into the things
that I'm excited about in coffee.

(01:06:02):
And so obviously, Ox is one of those things.
We just celebrated our one-year anniversary inFebruary.
And so it's weird to think that we've beenaround that long and that we, you know, have,
like, a regular business that's doing well, butvery exciting.
And so I think my goal in ten years from now isI wanna see that Ox is at four locations.

(01:06:27):
If we do anything more than four, ever, I wouldwanna have, potentially, like, an airport
location, and then have, like, a truck as thenumber five and number six so that we could do,
like, catering, and do, like, pop-ups andthings like that.
But I would wanna see us max out at that.
I think that when we get past that point, itbecomes hard to just make sure that the soul of

(01:06:50):
the business stays the same.
So I definitely don't wanna see us become like,oh, we have 50 locations across the United
States.
Like Yeah.
Can't do right.
What we would wanna do, the way that we wouldwanna do it.
And so that's the big goal.
I think I would love to continue to compete andto coach competitors.

(01:07:10):
I definitely would love to move more into theside of coaching competitors.
I feel like that part's more I feel morecomfortable on the coach side, but I love
competing.
Like, there's nothing wrong with that, but Ithink that, like, just a season off probably
isn't necessary at this point because I've beengoing for, like, five years of this.

(01:07:33):
And it's a lot when you put in so much time andenergy, even if you become the number one in
the U.S.
Right?
Like, becoming number one in the U.S.
means you have to work towards becoming numberone in the world.
So, like, seasons can literally just, like,bleed into each other.
And that's why I, like, I definitely I wouldlove to, like, have a season of just coaching,

(01:07:54):
but it's very exciting to be in that world aswell.
And I think this year, I judged Barista in02/2021, I think it was.
And that was when Morgan Ekroth was the U.S.
Barista champion, then she got second place inworlds.
And so I, that kind of was like an eye-openingexperience.

(01:08:17):
And then this past year, I got to judge forbrewers at regionals in Vegas, and that was so
much fun.
And so I definitely would love to get more intothe judging side of it and be able to, like,
qualify to judge on the world stage.
I feel like that would be super exciting.
But I think like that's the path forcompetition side is I want to get more into

(01:08:39):
judging, more into coaching.
I definitely want to compete again, but I don'tthink that like I want to be so involved in
like, I'm going to compete every year for thenext five years.
I definitely like see all sides and values toall the parts that are played.
And I would love to pivot from U.S.
competitions and compete somewhere outside ofthe U.S.

(01:09:00):
and just see what that looks like and feelslike.
Yeah.
No.
If there's a couple of themes I've heard youkind of mention a few times here, it's building
community and kind of, you know, creating thatthird space for people to go and bring people
out of their homes and out of their, you know,workplace and into coffee.

(01:09:20):
Yeah.
And that's where that the giving tree that kindof, you know, made me think of that when you
were kind of describing a plot is that, youknow, providing even in something as simple as
a cup of coffee, providing, you know, this iswhat we have to offer and people appreciate
that.
Also, you mentioned mentorship with the Perrys,you know, and so I can see how coaching kind of

(01:09:44):
lends into that.
Yeah.
That you, you know, now you are starting tomentor that next generation.
And then the, you know, final thing being likeinnovation and doing your own thing, you know,
following your intuition, following the thingsthat have kept that fire burning inside you
because, you know, no one works, you know,16-hour days, you know, seven days a week, gets

(01:10:09):
up at 4:00 in the morning, you know, if they'renot being pulled by their own kind of
self-conviction towards something.
So I can see how that all kind of ties inperfectly with where you've been heading this
whole time.
I'm sure it's your reality as well, right?

(01:10:29):
Like you've got multiple businesses that you'rekind of juggling and you don't do that out of
like, I mean, just from conversations we've hadand obviously like the charisma that you just
have in general, like if you just wanted to goget a job that was going to be well-paying or
you did a nine to five, you have thatopportunity.
You're choosing this path because this pathsuits who you are and what you're passionate

(01:10:52):
about.
And that is the most important thing.
Like if I was super, like let's say I was adad, right?
And I have like a whole family at home.
I don't think that this would be my path that Iwould be passionate about in the same way
because I think that these other things wouldtake a greater portion of my passion.
And so what I did vocationally would naturallycare to, this is what I care about most in.

(01:11:18):
And that's, I think that's a key thing forpeople to understand in this world too.
Like, I've been on a couple of different coffeechats where people are like, oh, I really want
to start a coffee business.
I have three kids under three and one on theway.
Or like, this guy said this recently, and hewas like, my wife and I have four kids, and she
is getting ready to go on maternity leave.
And I was like, why would you be starting acoffee business right now?

(01:11:39):
Your wife needs you to be present with her.
And so, like, you kind of have to go like,what's most important in my life?
And then, like, how do I build myself aroundthat authentically?
Again, not chasing what you think is a path tosomething, but chasing yourself and allowing
the paths to naturally unfold.
That's brand new.
Yeah, 100% dude.

(01:12:00):
And I think back to about the pandemic kind ofgutting maybe the San Diego coffee culture in
some way, I think it goes back to the reasonwhy you were able to be successful and keep
your store in the black is because you just,you were, you know, putting in the time and
showing up when, you know, it's a really hardbusiness.

(01:12:23):
The margins are thin.
Yeah.
You know, most coffee shops aren't reallyselling a ton of coffee after 2 or 3 p.m.
Yeah.
So you really gotta make your money in theearly mornings, and that takes a lot of
commitment and is not really for people thatare faint of heart but also have a lot of other

(01:12:44):
people kind of relying on them.
Where can people find you and stay in touch,check out some of your, do you have a blog, a
website, or how can people get in touch withyou?
I have a blog, please don't find it.
It's awful.
But I have an Instagram, I'm baristo clockbecause it's always time for coffee.

(01:13:06):
The same for my TikTok.
I don't post nearly as much as I want to, but Iwill continue.
post.
It's also where I just kind of, like, letpeople know the individual things that are
going on, whether I'm teaching a class or,like, for instance, this Sunday in Santa
Monica, I'm doing a pop-up event.
So, that'll be really exciting.
I'm partnering with a friend of mine who's abaker, and she's just going to throw down some

(01:13:27):
amazing pastries, and I'm going to throw down afew coffee drinks, and we're just going to have
a good time.
And she's married to one of my best friendsfrom high school.
And so it's a cool way for all of us to hangout and have a good time with the community
around them.
But yeah, I put things there like educationclasses I'm doing or like for next month I'm
going to be at Expo, and I'll be teachingespresso extraction classes.

(01:13:49):
So I'm super excited for that.
And then you can always, you know, hit me up onoxcoffeeroasters.com in case you're, you know,
trying to if you want a wholesaler, that's whoI am.
We sell beans.
We roast them.
They're pretty good.
We also train and, you know, put togetherclasses for public and private.
And so, yeah, we have a really good fun timewith coffee around here, which is ultimately

(01:14:12):
what I'm about is I want everybody to feelwelcome, whether they have had just espresso
for their entire life or they've been, youknow, the caramel Frappuccino king.
Like, whatever the case is, I want you to feelwelcome when you're in my shop.
That's a great message.
Yeah, I think one piece of advice I try toimpart to young people and also just people my

(01:14:35):
own age is that we're kind of in the age ofcreating your own brand.
You know what I mean?
A company isn't just going to kind of pave yourcareer for you.
I mean, I'm sure that exists, but I mean, withsocial media and with just the ability to kind
of get a message out to the world, you got tojust get confident in front of the camera

(01:15:01):
sometimes, get confident in your ability tospeak in front of a group or, hey, I have
something that I can teach.
And I think that ultimately, by slowly brick bybrick, you kind of will build your own brand
and that's what will have staying value for thelong run.
Yeah.
I love that.

(01:15:21):
I feel like it's like my I used to call it myown special brand of weird.
Like, can't be my weird.
My weird is mine.
Your weird is yours.
Totally.
And the stuff that seems normal to you, youknow, and just mundane, they're like, no one

(01:15:42):
cares.
Why would anyone wanna see, you know, x, y, andz?
It's like, well, you know, like, I just startedgetting into live streamers.
Like, have you ever watched it?
It's the weirdest stuff I've ever, like, comeacross.
And it's weird.
It's like it's boring honestly.
It's mostly boring but there's some sort oflike voyeuristic urge of just like, wow, your

(01:16:02):
life is so much different than mine and that isinteresting to me.
Yeah.
So we all have an important voice and it's goodjust to kind of get out there and do what gives
you passion.
Right?
Yeah.
I love that.
And I love seeing people you know, like youwith this podcast, right?
And like the conversation that we had in theshop, I just love people seeing what they love,

(01:16:27):
like seeing it come to life in their eyes.
It's so it's so cool.
It's so cool when it's like, I don't know.
Like, you you meet a parent and they're talkingabout this thing that their kid did the other
day, you're like, I can't even picture whatyou're talking about.
But you were so excited, and I'm excited withyou about it.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Totally.

(01:16:48):
Chris, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for your time.
Yeah.
This has been the Mind Body Mushroom.
Chris Dennis over at Ox Coffee.
Give him a follow.
Head on to the store if you're here in MissionValley or just in San Diego.
They're in Mission Valley.
And, yeah, give them a like.
So thank you, Chris.
I appreciate it.