Jordan Ryan introduces Rob Sanderson of SWEL, a nonprofit focused on supporting first responders through innovative approaches like surf therapy. Rob shares his background and discusses the changing respect for law enforcement, recruitment challenges, and burnout issues. They delve into the role and effectiveness of surf therapy, with Jordan sharing personal experiences and success stories. The conversation touches on funding and community support differences for nonprofits, as well as national support for first responders. Cultural insights include favorite cop and military movies. The episode concludes with discussions on military recruitment challenges and how listeners can support The SWEL Mission.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Alright.
Today, we are oops.
Fucking hell.
You're listening to
the Mind Body Mushroom, where warriors,seekers, and rebels explore the front lines of
healing.
I'm your host, Jordan Ryan.
From combat to consciousness, we dive into realstories, ancient wisdom, and the forgotten
tools that help us reclaim our minds, ourhealth, and our power.
(00:23):
This show is made possible by Wind and SeaCoffee, our line of adaptogen-infused blends
crafted for resilience, clarity, andperformance.
If you want to support the mission, visitwindandseacoffee.com.
Today, we're honored to welcome a true advocatefor healing and resilience, Rob Sanderson.
Rob is the founder and director of SWELL, whichstands for Surf Waves Enjoy Life, a nonprofit
(00:44):
organization dedicated to supporting veteransand first responders.
After serving over two decades as a policeofficer, Rob recognized the profound need for
mental health support among our nation'sheroes.
Through SWELL, he combines his passion forsurfing with a mission to help others
decompress, disconnect, and reinvigorate.
Rob, welcome to the show.
(01:05):
Extraordinary.
Appreciate you having me.
Yeah, man.
Thank you for coming on.
So you guys were here in San Diego.
When was that?
A couple weeks ago?
Yeah.
First weekend in April.
First weekend in April.
It's gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about what you guys weredoing and what that event was.
Yeah, so, you know, when we founded, we'realways looking to form communities with other
(01:30):
organizations that are like-minded, maybe havethe same kind of core mission to serve.
Through that, we found three otherorganizations that support military and first
responders.
That's Pendleton Surf Club, One More Wave,Veterans Service Alliance, and then us.
And really, we wanted to come together for lastyear, which was the first year, to just have a
(01:55):
camping surfing trip with all the leadershipand members and just kick it and see what we
could do to collaborate with one another tokind of support each other.
Because like I said, we do basically the samecore things, but we do things a little bit
differently.
And it was really cool to see the supportreally kind of forming a coalition around what
we're trying to accomplish.
(02:16):
And it's that whole tribe mentality, strongertogether.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And how do you how would you say that you dothings, like, differently than some of those
other organizations?
Or what where where's the what's what's SWELL'sflavor of it?
Yeah.
I certainly don't want to speak to the othermissions because I'm sure I'd dork it up
(02:36):
somehow.
But SWELL's unique in the fact that we'rebringing a lot of people that are not on the
coast or really familiar with surfing from allover the nation.
We bring them out to generally Huntington Beachon the West Coast, and they get four days of
surfing, community meals.
They kind of live together in the same Airbnbbeach house.
(03:00):
We do breath work, a little bit of yoga, andjust provide them with some tools.
We've got an expert in self-care who spoke withyou not too long ago, Matt Domianci.
Yeah.
He comes out and gives a talk, and it's reallyorganic.
So it's kind of a peer support function,really.
And then obviously with that, we surf, and theparticipants are partnered with either an
(03:21):
active-duty service member, a veteran, or afirst responder as their surf coach for the
weekend.
Yeah, does SWELL kind of focus primarily onfirst responders as opposed to like the veteran
and military side, or is that not really adistinction?
Yeah, it's not really a distinction.
I would say for our mission in particular,there's a lot of bleed over right between a lot
(03:47):
of active-duty firefighters and police officersthat are veterans.
And we have done veteran-only trips that aren'tfirst responders.
So it's kind of a mixed bag, really.
So we don't really distinguish, and, you know,the traumas are very different as far as when
you talk about acute trauma being in themilitary in a very action-packed deployment
versus, you know, 20 years of kind ofcumulative traumas with some acute sprinkled in
(04:10):
there too.
But the effect's the same when it goes to ourprogram.
Right.
Yeah.
No.
Tell me a little bit about your background.
I knew that you worked in law enforcement, butI really don't know much about your history.
What's the Sanderson origin story?
Yeah.
It was wild.
I grew up a Navy brat, so my dad was a fighterpilot.
(04:32):
Always admired men and women in uniform.
I always knew I wanted to serve.
I actually went through Marine Corps OCS, met alot of nice corpsmen there because I got hurt a
lot.
Yeah.
The last couple days I was at OCS, I ended uphaving such a bad blood infection and through
the blisters in my heels.
They're like, dude, you're out of here.
You gotta come back next doorway.
(04:54):
Wow.
Yeah.
So in the middle of that period of time, 9/11happened.
And I was like, man, I need to get out there.
I need to serve.
And I did a ride-along with a buddy of mine whowas a cop.
And I remember my dad called me the morning of9/11.
Was like, asked me a really crazy question thatkind of caught me off guard.
He's like, what are you gonna do about this?
(05:15):
Like, we just got attacked.
What are you gonna do about this?
You're the next generation.
Wow.
And so yeah, so I went to the police academy inFebruary 2002.
Started my career in '03 in Gulfport,Mississippi, of all places.
It's a wild story how I wound up there.
I've never even been to Mississippi till Istarted the academy, but ended up down there
and worked on the Gulf Coast for four years.
(05:37):
It was it was a good time, man.
It was back when, you know, the communityrespected the officers for the most part.
And the bad guys, there was like a mutualrespect where they understood what was coming
if they acted up.
Right.
And we treated everybody with respect, I'd liketo say.
Right.
And then Katrina hit.
We got blown pretty hard-core down there whenit came to damage.
(06:01):
We actually had more storm damage than NewOrleans, but, you know, clearly, larger
population, more media attention.
So we're about 45 minutes east of there.
And after that, I spent, gosh, like, six monthsstraight of just storm recovery.
Right?
So I think I worked 48 days straight of 16-hourshifts without a day off.
(06:24):
Then six months, like five days a week, like12- to 16-hour shifts.
Did a lot of crazy stuff flying around inhelicopters doing food drops, did a lot of body
recovery.
In the middle of that, they sent policeofficers kind of from all over that came to
help us out and firefighters and you name it,federal agencies.
And I was recruited from an agency that camedown to work with us to come up to Kansas City
(06:48):
to work.
And so about nine months after Katrina, movedup to Kansas City again, never even been to
Kansas City.
Really?
Couldn't probably even point it out on a map,to be honest with you, then aim for the center
of the U.S., furthest away from the coast, andhad a great career up there.
Did everything from pedaling a bicyclethroughout the streets, catching bad guys that
(07:09):
way, and spent four years undercoveroperations.
Bought a lot of dope for DEA and FBI.
That was fun.
And even just the little local jokers.
And they ended up with a back injury andretiring in 2020.
And then spent the next few years as acivilian, managing civilian staff for a buddy
(07:30):
of mine who got a chief job up here in themetro.
Interesting.
Now you said something about, you know, back inthe day or like, you know, kind of around the
time that you joined, there was more of like amutual respect for law enforcement and even a
mutual sort of like acknowledgment between, youknow, the bad guys and cops as well.
(07:53):
How do you see that has sort of changed overtime?
Like, what's been your perspective, and what doyou think could be driving that?
Yeah.
So I think it's more than just looking at thosetwo factions in a vacuum.
I think it's a societal change.
Like, we just have less respect for oneanother, period, and differing points of view.
(08:16):
Like, it was weird.
Like, I think I called bad guys back then couldsee things through the lens of what I was doing
and trying to accomplish.
And then like vice versa, there was like commonground regardless of where we sat.
Right.
And as long as you weren't over the topdisrespectful one way or the other, either the
bad guy or the cops, like, generally, you couldget along pretty well.
(08:38):
And for some reason, you know, there's a numberof reasons.
I want to say for some reason that Yeah.
Went about getting political.
But there's been erosion of that throughoutsociety of just, you know, mutual respect,
empathy on both sides and just perspective.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
It does seem that like well, you know, and ontop of that, again, not to like get too
(09:03):
political, but, you know, I don't mind kind ofgoing to some of these.
It seems like there's been a form of likeweaponized incompetence, you know, regarding,
like, you know, I mentioned earlier before westarted recording, I had a I had a squatter in
a house that I bought, you know, for rent, youknow, to rent out.
(09:25):
And this dude was going through a divorce orsaid he just got divorced.
I was looking for a place to stay.
You know, I was looking for a month-to-monthcontract.
I kind of like drew it up, drew up a lease,rented it out, and within one month of him
moving in there, he stopped paying and sort of,you know, absolutely wrecked the place.
(09:50):
And you don't you want as a citizen of yourcity, you look to law enforcement and the
judicial system and a lot of these othersystems that are meant to keep society ordered.
In one Mad Max realm, you go with pipes andstart beating this guy for stealing your house
(10:17):
basically.
But we don't want to live in that type ofanarchy, right?
You want to be able to, you know, we live in asystem of laws
no more We pay taxes, right?
Yeah, that's what we pay taxes for.
It's what we, you know, but so what the thestep typically from there since it's a civil
situation is you go and you evict him.
(10:39):
You gotta you post some notices.
Hey.
Three-day notice to pay or quit.
Ten-day notice to pay or quit.
Then you file an unlawful detainer and thiskind of is the process.
But I guess what I learned through thishorrible process, and in some states they do it
better than others.
Like for example, I've heard in like Texas andin Florida, even New Mexico where I'm from, you
(11:04):
know, it's ten-day process and you go and filesome paperwork and within ten days, if the
person's still there and hasn't paid, thesheriff comes out and locks them out of the
house and that's it.
It's two weeks maybe of an ordeal.
It took me six months.
(11:28):
And I learned through this whole thing was thatduring COVID, you know, when everything kind of
closed down, they closed down all of theseeviction courts as well.
Meanwhile, there was an eviction moratorium,right?
So they were making it to where you couldn'tevict people because they didn't want people to
be evicted because they lost their job and theycouldn't pay rent.
(11:49):
Like, I guess, you know, it's coming from agood place.
But then after they opened up the world and gotall these eviction courts, they only opened one
eviction court for the city of San Diego.
And there's a backlog of four years ofevictions that needed to take place.
(12:11):
And so if you're you know, if you're a bad guy,I guess, if you're somebody who is trying to
weaponize this situation, you know all thesethings.
You know just as far as you can push it, justlike right where that realm is, where the
system that is meant to protect order actuallyprotects disorder and injustice.
(12:37):
Know?
And then
understand.
The dude Yeah.
The dude got six months of free rent off of theUN loan.
Just three free rent.
And then, you know, since I'm the greedyhomeowner, I had to go hire attorneys to do
this, but the city pays for his attorneys, youknow, because he's like a low-income person,
whatever.
And so it was like, my property taxes aredefending him against, you know, getting my
(13:03):
house back.
And you see this and you're like, dude, thisjust feels so backward.
Like I'm all for, you know, you don't want somelike a single mom who loses her job and three
days later her landlord kicks her out on thestreet.
Like I understand the need to have protectionsand you know, not everyone is a nice person,
(13:26):
but at the same time, it's like the fabric ofsociety starts disintegrating when you make it
to where this weaponized incompetence, that'skind of how I see it.
But moving into
That's a lot, man.
I mean
feel like I should give you a
hug.
Dude, I mean, we're way past this.
(13:48):
We've gotten it, you know, handled andwhatever.
But it's just one of those things that I'veseen in my own life because we're all kind of
like, you know, you see stories on the newsand, you know, you know, there's you have
people from Kansas, you know, they'll be like,San Francisco is such a mess.
I'm like, have you ever been to San Francisco?
Like, you know I Like, do you you know, it doeskind of raise to the level of, like, these are
(14:11):
culture war political stories, but, you know,it's only once it kind of enters your life.
You know?
You're a defund the police person until yourcar gets stolen.
And then you're like, well, calling the police,what do you mean that there's not enough
officers to send out to the and well, yeah, youknow, it's like, it's a nice tagline until you
(14:33):
need someone to come help you.
You know?
What do you think about that?
Yeah.
I think the problem's just getting worse too.
Because for the last, I don't know, you nameit, eight or so years, we've really beat down
public servants.
Mhmm.
Pretty awfully.
I mean, law enforcement in the forefront, buteven firefighters feel it too.
(14:56):
Right?
Really?
And now it's like, who wants to do the job?
Because you don't make a lot of money.
I mean and the risk is real, you know?
Right.
And so when you don't have a lot of applicantsthat wanna do that job, you're starting to
scrape the bottom of the barrel and theproblem's just gonna perpetuate.
So you're and there are really great people outthere that still wanna do that job and they're
(15:20):
just as good of an applicant as I was, but Itell you this, they're also hiring people that
don't need to be doing this job.
And so you're gonna see, in my opinion, a lotof these issues get even worse when it comes to
lack of training knowledge, just capabilitiesof handling stressful situations or, you know,
nutty people or violent people.
(15:42):
Right.
We're not recruiting the highest quality folksright now, which is unfortunate.
And so we're starting to see that now with callvolume stacking.
Really?
I know in Kansas City, if you call 911 attimes, you'll be on hold for 30 minutes
regardless of what's going on.
So there's not enough people to answer thecalls.
Wow.
And there's not enough cops to go to them.
(16:03):
Wow.
So yeah, it's a real problem.
Any big city I'm sure, you know, out there onthe West Coast is no different.
Mhmm.
Have you thought about, you know, have you everhypothesized, like, what would be a solution to
this?
You know what I mean?
Do you pay cops more?
Do you like, what what what is sort of doesthat even affect the situation?
(16:24):
I think that's one part of it.
Right?
And this is not coming from anything other thanmy perspective of one little guy.
Of course.
Of course.
I'm not saying this is a solution, but I feellike if you made a national standard, right,
of, like, very similar to the military as faras, you know, fitness standards, education
(16:46):
standards, training standards.
And I'm not saying the military does it great,but at least there's like a standard.
Whereas, you know, a cop here in Kansas City isgonna get judged by, you know, a cop that's in
Oklahoma.
Who knows what their standards are?
Because I can tell you right now, they'revastly different.
Yeah.
When it comes to educational training, traininghours for continuing education.
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And you have very professional departments andyou have very unprofessional departments and
the cop that is at the professional departmentis getting judged by the actions across the
nation of somebody that isn't.
So I think that's the start of it, right?
And then if we can make it to this is probablya poor example now given the political
rhetoric, but, you know, like the FBI is heldin high regard, the DEA or whatever these
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federal organizations, if we can boost locallaw enforcement to that level, whether it comes
to mirroring pay, but also training andexpectations, I think eventually you're gonna
wash some people out, but you're gonna build ahigher standard.
I think the other thing we need to do is weminimize the amount of crap that they send us
on, right?
Mental health calls, certainly, if there's aweapon involved, and there's imminent threat of
(17:59):
bodily harm, but we're just the local cop isjust the catchall for anything that doesn't fit
the box.
Right.
So we're wasting a ton of time on that.
And we're also putting them in a bad positionand also the citizens in a bad position.
And you could just list the number ofunfortunate uses of force that have, you know,
related into killings that possibly could havebeen prevented.
(18:22):
I'm not pointing out just one.
Sure.
There's multiple.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, an aspect of that too is that, like,you gotta think that police are generally
intervening in somebody's worst day.
You know what I mean?
Like, if the cops are dealing with you, it'snot because you're at a bake sale.
(18:48):
You know?
It's like something's going on.
And over the course of a career, you know, it'slike, you know, like, you get a new car and
then you see that car everywhere you go.
Like, it's that bias.
So it's like if your daily interaction withstrangers is skewing towards, it's gonna be a
(19:08):
negative interaction, I feel like that kind ofbleeds into interactions that maybe aren't so
bad and that you might, you know, come out witha different perspective, but you're kind of
loaded in the back of your mind going like,hey.
Like, this person could have a weapon.
You know?
All of these kind of, you know, triggers thatexist in those interactions and, you know,
(19:33):
using that as, like, a segue into what I wannatalk about next, how do you think that
contributes to burnout?
Yeah.
I mean, what you're describing is exactly whatI saw throughout my career.
It's those officers that are constantly in thatsympathetic response to where they're
hypervigilant, and they just assume the worst.
(19:56):
Right.
Not only that, but they've already completelyoverfilled their bucket with giving a shit.
So to show empathy to another person regardlessof the circumstances is just not within them.
Right.
And that's a shame.
And really, that boils down to a lack ofpositive outlet, a lack of emotional
intelligence, a lack of training, and probablya lack of self-care.
(20:22):
Not probably, definitely a lack of self-care.
Yeah,
totally.
And, you know, at times, especially afterKatrina, I found myself doing the same thing.
So I'm not sitting here on my soapboxpretending like I was never in that kind of
maxed-out mode because I was.
Right.
You know, and it creeps up on you, and youdon't really understand that it's there until
(20:43):
you experience it, and then it takes a level ofemotional intelligence to recognize it because
some people never snap out of that.
Right.
Right.
It's like even if you had the best applicantsunder the best conditions, with the best
training, it's like, yeah, if you're not kindof addressing and deconflicting these
mechanisms that are causing that, it's like noone is above that, you know.
(21:09):
You can't exist in that sympathetic nervousfight-or-flight stage forever, and, you know,
with that, if you're not allowing forreregulation, it's gonna creep up on anyone.
Yeah.
So what do we do?
We make them work more overtime.
Yeah.
We make them drink energy drinks.
(21:30):
Right.
Slam nicotine.
Right.
Zero downtime, and it just constantly makes theproblem even worse.
And yeah.
I don't know what the answer is.
Yeah.
Other than surfing.
Surf therapy, I mean, that seems to be.
So how did you kinda get into surf therapy?
Where was I mean, as somebody who doesn't liveby the coast, where did that kind of enter your
(21:55):
consciousness?
Yeah.
So it didn't start off as surf therapy.
As a matter of fact, before or when I startedSWELL, I had no idea what surf therapy was even
as we were starting.
I just I grew up surfing, and I constantly madesurf trips all over to meet buddies.
You know, I kinda cut my teeth on the TexasGulf Coast, which, yes, there's actually surf
(22:17):
there.
Is it good?
Rarely, but it's fun.
So, yeah, when I moved to Kansas City, I wasjust constantly making trips to go see our
mutual friend, you know, Reggie.
Yeah.
And he was in the Coast Guard and he'd bestationed, you know, different locations,
whether it be San Diego or L.A.
or wherever we'd meet out in Costa Rica.
(22:38):
So I just knew when I came back from those surftrips, you know, whether they be quarterly or
every couple of months, I just felt better.
Again, ignorant to surf therapy or what it wasdoing.
Just know when I came back, I was like, man, Ijust like my bucket was empty.
I had that kind of capacity to take on morecrap.
And so I started taking friends of mine thathad never been that were either veterans, first
(23:02):
responders or both with me.
And I started to see like a real change in themtoo.
I was like, I wonder if there might besomething here.
And kind of simultaneously, I'd beeninteracting with a group that does equine
therapy for veterans and first responders herein Kansas City.
And I was like, man, I wonder if we could, youknow, put together some sort of nonprofit just
fund these trips for these guys to come outwith us, you know, meet up with Reggie and Adam
(23:25):
and everybody and we'll just go surf.
And so that's kind of how it kicked off.
We started our paperwork in like 2019 and thenmade our first trip in 2020.
That's interesting.
Yeah, I wonder.
I wonder it.
I want to ask you if you think that becausesurf therapy doesn't feel like therapy, you
(23:49):
know what I mean?
Like people think of these like medicalinterventions or, you know, it's like it's
somebody with a master's or a Ph.D.
in this and you got to be in like a clinic or aclinical setting.
Like these are very obviously relaxed settings.
It's like it's people hanging out at the beachand going surfing.
It's kind of a two-part question.
(24:09):
So on one hand, I could see that that makes itvery approachable because it's like, you know,
not in that setting.
But I wonder if that also prevents it frombeing taken seriously by precincts and, you
know, maybe these large organizations writlarge because they're like, they're assuming
(24:33):
that the type of help needs to be given from adoctor, you know, kind of deal.
What have you noticed?
Yeah, so I mean, those are two great points.
And we recognize that very early on.
So when we were just trying to convince peopleto go to the Pacific Ocean with us, we never
talked about therapy.
Right.
Never mentioned it.
(24:54):
Just said, Hey, want to take you out, gosurfing, it's gonna be a good time to get
relaxed.
And we're going to cover all the costs, justkick back.
And so given the amount of effort they wouldneed to put into it other than just taking some
days off from work, the lift was pretty lightfor them, they said they'd be willing to go.
So that's how we kind of continue to sell ittoday, although the word's out.
(25:15):
And then I also knew that we needed some sortof proof that what we're doing is effective.
So starting like our very first mission in2020, we would collect data pre- and
post-mission surveys, and it's based on the newGSE scale.
And we would measure improvement inself-efficacy, improvement in anxiety,
depression, and stress.
(25:36):
And so have those stats from day one, and wepublish them annually.
And it's pretty shocking.
Now, granted, we take them a week before and aweek after.
And anytime you're talking about statistics orI'm not a scientist, but I know, you know, a
week after the results are not going to be thesame six months later, if they haven't
(25:57):
continued to do the work.
Right.
And find other modes of decompressionthemselves.
Right.
So yeah, I mean, that's kind of how we tackledit.
Now, we've had varying degrees of buy-in fromagencies.
I've had chiefs reach out to me, police andfire, and ask me to take their people.
They funding it?
Hell no.
But at least they're bought in.
(26:20):
We have been able to get some agencies to puttheir men and women out on training days.
So they're actually getting paid, they're notable to take vacation days, but we're still not
to the point to where we had the completebuy-in from agencies, especially in the Midwest
or agencies outside of the West Coast that arewilling to actually fund it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(26:40):
And regarding those surveys, what you said istotally valid about, you know, the week before
and week after.
It's like, you know, we don't know what thelong-term data says, but do you remember some
of the statistics off the top of your head or,like, how much of an improvement people were
experiencing?
Yeah.
When it comes to improving self-efficacy, thequestions that we're asking, believe it or not,
(27:05):
the veterans and first responders think prettyhighly of their capabilities.
So we did see some improvement in self-efficacyand reporting.
I think that might have been skewed just alittle bit.
But the things that we really saw are like, 30to 40 percent decrease in anxiety and
depression, like 28 percent decrease in stress.
(27:26):
So and it varies year to year and each group'sdifferent and they have different experiences.
But I mean, like huge chunks, you wouldn't beable to take Xanax for a week to feel that, you
know.
40 percent improvement.
Yeah.
I'm not saying talk therapy wouldn't do that,but really experiential therapies are where
(27:46):
it's at for me.
And it's not a long-term fix, but I think ifthey can walk away with some tools like breath
work, you know, self-regulation, sleep hygiene,things like that, that it can be a sustainable
thing.
And we've seen it, you know, because I'm stillfriends with just about everybody that I've
taken out to this day.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
(28:06):
And I think, you know, I wanna ask you in aminute kind of like, what do you think it is
about surfing specifically?
But, you know, more to the point, I think thatit's about finding something.
When you can kind of distill what is thebenefit of surf therapy, then you can realize
that like, oh, there are other things that havethis, if it's flow state or whatever the case
(28:30):
is.
But before I ask you, I want to tell you alittle bit about how I got into surf therapy
and what it did for me.
So I got injured while I was in the militaryand I was essentially being medically separated
and going through that whole process, comingfrom a special operations community, you think
(28:52):
highly of yourself, you think of yourself aslike strong, capable, all of this and your
identity is so heavily tied into where you'reat, your reputation, what other people think of
you on your team, etc.
And all of a sudden, all of that gets putcalled in question.
(29:14):
You're losing your job, you're losing yourfriends in a sense, your reputation takes this
massive hit.
And on top of all those like relational issues,you're also losing my mobility.
I was sleeping like shit.
I felt anxious.
(29:35):
I was, you know, sad and depressed that I waslike and surfing was a bit of an escape.
It wasn't a pill.
It wasn't just another doctor's appointmentwhere I was going in.
So I felt like this is fun.
This isn't just like, you know, more woe is me,like sick boy going to the doctor.
(30:02):
And coming from an amphibious specialoperations community, you know, I took pride in
being capable in the water.
You know, this was an element that was mostpeople, you know, you take out first-time
surfers all the time.
(30:22):
They get their ass kicked.
You know what I mean?
It could be like a two- or three-foot day andlike they're like a wet cat drowning, you know,
you get so gassed.
And so that because it was challenging andbecause it sort of pushed my limits in a lot of
ways, it made me feel like once you could startdoing it a little bit, like you got your
(30:45):
confidence back and you're doing something thatis difficult.
It's connecting to nature, and it also has itsown aspect of, like, culture, community in the
same way that, like, the military does, youknow?
So for me, that was, like, a hugely empoweringaspect of it.
(31:07):
And yeah, but I guess now is a good time tokind of segue.
It's like, what do you think, what do you thinkthat it is about surf therapy that makes it
such a good intervention?
Yeah.
Well, I think you hit on a lot of the goodpoints.
I mean, you know, bringing people out therethat have never experienced anything.
Doing hard shit is good for you, whether youlike it or not.
(31:29):
So that it's not an easy sport to learn even ona two- to three-foot day.
It's good to have your ego squashed a littlebit.
Right?
And it gives you some perspective too.
Like, you're out in this giant body and you'renot in control.
You may think you can swim well, get wiped by ahead-high, you know, barrel and it's not
(31:49):
necessarily gonna be the case.
Yeah.
And then, you know, it's the fact that we'rebringing people and putting them into a foreign
environment, and there's some trust that has tobe extended.
So when you're in that sympathetic state,you're not trusting anybody to do anything.
If you can relinquish a little bit of trust toyour surf coach, to me, to bring you out there
(32:10):
and just a little faith that you're gonnasurvive this experience, that's healing.
On top of that, you can't bring your radio outin the lineup.
Can't bring your gun, you don't have your cellphone.
You're given a task that's not an easy one thatyou don't know how to do.
Right.
And if you don't focus on catching that wave,you're not gonna catch it.
Mhmm.
And whether that's, you know, standing up andriding for the first time or just on your
(32:34):
belly, either way, focusing on that and thenthe physical exhaustion of doing something
difficult, learning a new skill.
And probably the coolest thing that youmentioned that I have found in one of our
biggest unintended benefits is that building ofcommunity.
Because a lot of the men and women we take outhad that loss, that sense of loss in their
(32:56):
community because most of them are strugglingwith some form version of whatever letter
diagnosis you want to give them.
And they feel that kind of separation fromtheir community.
Then they're surrounded by people that arethere for them or other participants.
So that's been really cool.
So a lot of that.
(33:16):
And there's something too about being in thewater, being on the sand, being grounded, no
financial worries about why you're out there.
They know that, you know, SWELL's gonna takecare of it.
So that's really, I think, the highlights ofwhat makes it kinda work for people.
Yeah.
That's that's awesome.
Do you have any good, like, anecdotes that youwanna share about, you know, just crazy
(33:40):
transformations that you've seen?
Yeah.
I mean, you never I try to get to knowparticipants a little bit either through Zoom
or phone calls or whatever ahead of time, butyou never really know the impact unless you
stay in touch with some people.
You know, I took a guy out that was recommendedto me by one of the chiefs, and he was involved
(34:02):
in a kind of a crazy shooting.
He wasn't the shooter, but he was in charge anddirecting people to be in certain positions.
One of the people under his command ended upshooting and killing a guy.
And it was justified.
We don't call them good shootings, but it was ajustified shooting.
Right.
And afterwards, the officer that was theshooter ended up quitting, and then he blamed
(34:23):
our participant for ruining his career forputting him in that position.
And he held a lot of guilt, that and a lot ofother factors.
So, we brought him out.
He's a great dude.
Had a good time.
We put one of our peer support participantswith him to kind of keep an eye on him and it
went really well.
(34:44):
And, you know, we've kept in touch and didn'treally think anything of it till you fast
forward a couple years later.
And I was at a peer command or peer supportcommand school, and I was giving a talk about
SWELL.
And one of the commanders stood up, and he wasreferring to this participant.
He says, you know what?
Because I had said, hey, we're trying to keeppeople's jobs.
He's like, say, not only did you save thisperson's job, but I can tell you, you saved his
(35:08):
life.
And I've heard that from him since then.
Wow.
So we've had a lot of really cool kind ofpowerful stories that—excuse my dog.
He's kidding.
Just needing some pets here.
I'm his emotional support
human.
So, yeah, we've had a lot of good success withthat.
We've had people that we brought out to SWELLMissions that then become therapists themselves
(35:34):
or counselors.
And then they're referring their clients, Iguess we call them,
Right.
to us.
And we've brought them out, and they've been anexcellent choice to come out.
So it's kinda cool to see somebody go fromparticipant to now healer, right?
Then referring other people that we can kindahelp together.
So,
Right.
Right.
(35:54):
Yeah.
And I'm sure that that kind of feeds back intothe, like, making this more widespread and
allowing maybe the first precinct to go to orthe first that you try to convince to, hey,
would you send some people out, let them knowif we're trending.
Maybe the answer is no initially or maybe it's,yeah, for sure, but we're not going to pay for
(36:17):
it.
But like, well, you give it a generation, givemany years and many lives touched by this.
And a lot of people that have gone fromparticipants to trainer, you know, I think it
becomes that much easier over the long run toactually kind of create that change.
It kind of has ripple effects, you know,throughout time.
(36:38):
What's the hardest challenge that you run intofrom for your nonprofit?
Yeah.
The need is definitely there.
The most difficult thing is I'm sure you couldprobably guess is funding.
So trying to determine what would make sensefor a donor, whether it be a corporate sponsor
(37:01):
and what their return on investment is.
We've done some pretty cool things here latelyto kind of put us in a better position to
really compete for those dollars.
The first thing we did is I stepped back asdirector, and we put Adam Wright, who's an
active duty warrant officer in the Coast Guard,as director.
He was the deputy director for a while.
He's been with us since the beginning.
(37:21):
He's on the West Coast.
Great dude.
And I'm really excited to see what he's gonnado.
I'm still on the board, still considered afounder, obviously, and here to help and go
surf for sure.
And the other thing we did was put a directorof development in place that's going out and
kind of seeking these donations andsponsorships.
So, obviously, funding's an issue.
(37:43):
Participation and finding participants is notan issue at all.
A whole laundry list of people that would liketo go, which is awesome.
Right.
Because early on, I just, you know, was filledwith a lot of self-doubt, like, man, people
aren't
gonna want to do this.
This is silly.
Really?
Interesting.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'm one of those people that, you know, it tookme probably three years of doing this for me to
really allow myself to feel any sort ofsatisfaction with what we've done.
(38:07):
And that's, that's kind of a shame because I'velet the people down that help support that when
I don't, you know, share in the credit of it.
So, right.
Right.
Yeah.
What is that process like?
Like, to find funding for it?
Like, you know, you can stick a high level orgo as deep as you want, but, like, you know,
how does that work?
We're always on the lookout for any grants orcharitable organizations that put grants out
(38:31):
there.
Government grants are—they don't cover what wedo for the most part.
So fundraisers too.
We hold golf tournaments, raffles, you know,sell T-shirts and, you know, individual.
We've got a whole lot of very giving individualcontacts that'll contribute, which is nice.
(38:52):
So it's everything.
I've, you know, early on, I would sell a kidneyto take somebody on a surf trail.
Yeah.
The first one we ever did, I put everything onmy personal credit card and just hoped to God
that I could afford to pay it off.
And we threw like a gala-style dinner at aplace called Wars for veterans, that
organization I was telling you about.
Yeah.
Thank goodness I was able to pay that off.
(39:13):
You still got your kidneys?
Still got them.
Very fast.
Yeah.
Still got good babies.
I only need one though, so I got one of those.
Yeah.
You could easily sell
I also sell this pup here too.
What kind of dog is he?
He's a Great Dane.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I can see that.
He's gonna
He's a rescue.
He did not have a great start in life.
(39:34):
So, aw.
Now he's squirrel rotten.
He's very thankful.
Let's see, what do you see that is differentwithin the veteran and first responder
community?
Like obviously there is some overlap, butwhat's a big distinction that you see?
(39:55):
Gosh, I feel like the veteran community is kindof headed in the right direction when it comes
to forward thinking on self-care.
I feel as if a lot of the veterans I interactwith are a lot more upfront with kind of
talking about things that are going on withthem, and the police and fire and medics, not
(40:20):
so much.
They're still very guarded.
It almost feels like maybe the veterancommunity 20 years ago.
Mhmm.
And I also see that, you know, the traumas aredifferent.
It seems like veterans get a whole lot of crap,like, a really short amount of time depending
on, you know, what their job was and when theyserved and how many times they were deployed,
(40:42):
you know.
Granted, there are, you know, guys and galsthat have been in the military for 20, 25 years
in multiple deployments, but generallyspeaking, it's kind of short spurts of trauma.
Right.
And then they're out and then it's just like,holy shit, like, I'm on my own now?
Mhmm.
So it seems like very abrupt.
Right.
Whereas most law enforcement, their fire, theircareers are a little bit longer.
(41:04):
But same result, it's like, hey, now you'reout.
And it's like, you know, I retired medicallyafter an injury unexpectedly much like yourself
and experienced very similar things that youdid, with the loss community.
I thought I was a pretty popular guy amongstthe department, and I don't think it was any
(41:24):
stab at me that I don't keep in touch withthose people, but it just kinda out of sight,
out of mind.
That certainly was an issue as well.
So a lot of crossover, but again, there aresome kind of intricate differences.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I wonder back to kind of possiblesolutions or other things like, you know, we at
(41:45):
least have, well, there's an entire Departmentof Veterans Affairs.
You know what I mean?
There's it's a national organization whose solejob is to take care of veterans and their
families.
There's not really anything like that for firstresponders.
Right?
It's all pretty atomized, like, across thenation.
Interesting.
Yeah.
There's I mean, the retirement systems dependon, you know, what state you're in, what city
(42:10):
you're in, because certain cities have theirown pension, certain, you know, states have.
So it's just it's so different across theboard.
Again, I think bringing that back to a nationalstandard to where maybe not a full-on type of
VA scenario for first responders, but some sortof resource out there would be great.
Right.
Right.
You know, I think this statistic's a little bitold, but there for a while, though, the life
(42:34):
expectancy of a cop that retires was, like,five years.
He was dead after he retired.
Wow.
Or she.
Yeah.
And whether that be by their own hands orthrough just poor health, there's just crazy.
Not a whole lot of support out there.
Right.
Once you get out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's not even, like, a term, I guess.
Like, you know, if you were in the military andthen you get out of the military, you're a
(42:58):
veteran.
You know, if you were a cop for five years andthen you're not a cop,
You're called smart.
Just kidding.
Just kidding.
But yeah, you know, I think like even just on acultural level, like there could be simple
things like that that don't necessarily takeinto, you know, the funding of creating a VA
(43:23):
equivalent, but just something that lets peoplefeel like they are still a part of something
and that they were, you know, you thankmilitary people for their service.
You know, most people don't really thank copsfor their service and especially, you know,
it's complicated, I get it, when they're in andthey're kind of, you know, enforcing laws and
(43:45):
whatever, but maybe by the time someone getsout, I feel like there shouldn't be as much
controversy over it and that is something thatwas needed to make society function and it
doesn't cost much but I guess just kind ofbeing thankful, like, I don't know.
What do you think?
What do you think?
(44:06):
Yeah.
That that's an interesting one.
I think, you know, the firefighters certainly,they have no qualms about, you know, wearing
their firefighter T-shirts and their stickersand things like that.
I know most cops, not all because you see themout there, but they really don't want anybody
to know what they did for a living or what theydo for a living.
Mhmm.
(44:26):
Especially the last 10, 15 years, not exactlythe most popular profession.
So I don't know public recognition is really,but some sort of system of support.
Not exactly like the VA, but something out.
Right.
And there's a lot of nonprofits that are doingsome killer work that are stepping up trying to
be that transitional support for people, whichis awesome.
(44:50):
But to me, I think that's something that thegovernment should be funding that people are
given a lot of their themselves, and sometimeslosing, you know, breaking up families and and,
you know, certainly, damaging people, you know,for their service.
Right.
Right.
So we're kind of wrapping up.
(45:11):
I guess I have maybe another one question toask you, and then you can leave us with any
sort of parting remarks.
But what's your favorite cop movie if you haveone?
Oh gosh.
I mean, Let's Be Cops is hilarious.
It's not really a cop movie.
It's like two guys pretending to be cops, butthey're not far from the truth.
(45:31):
Have you seen that?
I feel like I have.
It's not very old, right?
Let's Be Cops.
No, it's not.
Yeah, 2014.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember this movie.
They're not far off, man.
Some of the stuff that happens there.
And I tried to watch this movie again.
I just couldn't bring myself to do it, but Endof Watch is such a good, like
(45:55):
I'm familiar with that.
There's some bullshit Hollywood stuff, youknow, in there.
But, I mean, it's a pretty spot-on one.
Those guys actually did their homework and
Yeah.
That was during the era when, like, everythingwas cool to be, like, really rough cut video
where everything's shaking.
I tried to watch it and I was like
Bro, that's cool.
Like, I love this movie, but I can't watch it.
So but
I think those guys really nailed it when theyput that movie together.
(46:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just saw Warfare.
Have you heard of this movie?
Have you seen it?
Yeah.
How do you see it?
How do you watch it?
You have to like
It's out in the movies.
Oh, it's in the theaters?
Yeah.
It's in theaters.
How is that?
It was it's really good but it's not likeenjoyable, I guess, if that's I could see it
(46:39):
winning some awards like I didn't I honestlydid not know anything about it.
I've seen other Alex Garland movies and, youknow, the trailer looks kinda good but it
doesn't really kinda indicate like what themovie's about.
But yeah, you could tell kind of the same deal.
Like they they did their homework.
(46:59):
Supposedly it's basically one sort of missionthat, you know, happened during the Iraq
invasion.
It's like a SEAL team and the marine elementare kind of working together and they go on
this patrol.
And it's almost like a documentary reenactmentin a sense, pieced together by interviews that
(47:26):
they they did.
So you don't see the interviews, but it waslike a reenactment of their from their memories
of, like, what happened.
But just certain shit, like, you know, thesound of, like, the machine guns, like, hitting
the walls, you know, like the rounds hittingthe walls.
Yeah.
The relative difference in volume between smallarms and then, like, larger fire and an IED
(47:52):
exploding.
It's definitely one that's kind of worth seeingin theaters for that reason is like, you know,
it's wild.
You feel the like explosions like through yourbody in theaters.
Yeah.
I guess that could be triggering for some too.
(48:13):
Oh, for sure.
I imagine it absolutely will be because it'salso like it's not very Hollywood.
Like, there's not there's very little, like,dialogue even in terms of, like, character
development or, like, the boys shooting theshit, like, you know, back in the team room.
Like, it's not really that way.
It's sort of like what was happening in thismission, you know, after this IED goes off, you
(48:40):
know, everyone can't hear.
It's kind of that, like, ear ringing thing.
And then at some point, you kinda hear as theaudience what, you know, you're hearing from
the perspective of everyone involved, and thenyou kinda hear it as, like, the audience.
And there's a guy, like, screaming just like,you know, like, bloody murder.
And you're like, whoa, dude.
(49:01):
Like, it it's not it it does not glamorizecombat by any means.
But yeah, I think it's an important kind ofbookend maybe to our global war on terror.
And I don't I think it's interesting becauselike a lot of military movies, you know, the
(49:24):
DOD sanctions a lot of stuff and it's it doesserve an element of recruitment.
You know what I mean?
Like, Act of Valor specifically was like DODsanctioned.
They're trying to increase SEAL people,applicants.
You know, they wanted to to fill that pipeline.
A lot of movies are that way where it's likethey they put this there there's an agenda
(49:50):
behind it.
Zero Dark 30 was sort of meant to kinda justifyand rationalize the enhanced interrogation
program and to be like, see, well, if it wasn'tfor these controversial methods, we wouldn't
have gotten Saracawi and blah, blah, blah, youknow.
And so this one, kind of it definitely doesn'thave that same flavor, which is interesting
(50:13):
because I hear I go to this like SD MAC, it'slike the San Diego Military Advisory Council
every couple months and they do like breakfast.
And I've always wondered while I was in, youknow, like what what is like the general of
this base do or like of this?
Like where does he go all day?
What's his job?
And like, this is the type of stuff that theydo.
They go out to these, like, breakfasts and thenjust, like, talk about, you know, very, very
(50:35):
high-level stuff.
But one kind of constant theme is that thereare recruitment challenges.
I think pretty much every branch with theexception of maybe the Marine Corps has come up
short on their recruitment.
So they're trying to figure out new ways, likehow do we get people to want to join, you know,
(50:59):
and, you know, I don't know what the answer tothat is.
But, you know, I think it comes down to some ofthe benefits.
Like my life, like, you're in the military, I'msure it's the same while you're a cop, it's
your life kinda sucks.
Like, it's about 95 not cool, 95 not cool stuffand then, like, 5%, like, kinda cool stuff.
(51:21):
You know?
And it's this, like, trauma bonding essentiallythat just, like, gets you through it and, like,
dark humor, you know?
But what I've realized since getting out isthere really are a lot of benefits for military
veterans and, you know, through education andyour health care and a lot of things that I
(51:43):
wasn't even really aware of when I was, youknow, joining and not like I gave a shit
anyway, I was, you know, my early 20s.
But that type of stuff, like when I talk topeople now, I'm like, dude, like, let me talk
about the GI, like, know, let me like, it willchange your life, man.
Like a lot of these things and a lot of peoplejoining, you know, I'm sure the police and as
(52:05):
well, the military, it's like it's lowereconomic brackets.
It's sometimes people with kind of like, don'treally know what to do with my life.
I don't know where to go.
And if you could just be like, hey, if you'regonna go do this thing, it's serving your
country.
It's serving your community in some way, shape,or form.
Then when you get out, you're gonna have, youknow, a lot of advantages.
(52:29):
You know, I think that's one way of maybe doingit but
Yeah.
For sure.
So Rob, what do you want to leave everybodywith?
How do you—where can they find you?
What kind of events do you guys have coming up?
What's the next chapter for the SWELL mission?
Yeah.
So, first off, they go to our website.
(52:52):
Just recently relaunched.
It's www.theswell.org.
Next thing on the horizon, we're looking to doa June veterans trip.
We're hopefully got that all booked up, readyto go.
And then October, same spot down there at CampPendleton, we're doing the military surf
(53:13):
competitions in conjunction with Pendleton SurfClub, One More Wave, and VSA.
So super stoked on that.
Future is Adam Wright's gonna get this thinggoing a hell of a lot better than I ever did,
and I'm here to support him.
Sick.
I'm just I'm blessed that I got to spend, youknow, five years at the helm meeting people
like yourself and Matt and Patrick Nardooleyand just several of your other guests.
(53:35):
Just stoked to meet new great people that Iwouldn't have otherwise been able to meet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I would love to support your guys' mission onsome of the upcoming trips you guys have going
on.
Set up some coffee and
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
And if you're enjoying the show and you want tosupport what we're building, check out Wind and
(53:57):
Sea Coffee.
You'll get the best tasting adaptogen blendsout there and help fuel the podcast in the
process.
But Rob, this has been great.
Thank you so much for coming on.
This is the Mind Body Mushroom and yeah, checkus out.
Alright.
Today, we are oops.
Fucking hell.
You're listening to
the Mind Body Mushroom, where warriors,seekers, and rebels explore the front lines of
healing.
I'm your host, Jordan Ryan.
From combat to consciousness, we dive into realstories, ancient wisdom, and the forgotten
tools that help us reclaim our minds, ourhealth, and our power.
(00:23):
This show is made possible by Wind and SeaCoffee, our line of adaptogen-infused blends
crafted for resilience, clarity, andperformance.
If you want to support the mission, visitwindandseacoffee.com.
Today, we're honored to welcome a true advocatefor healing and resilience, Rob Sanderson.
Rob is the founder and director of SWELL, whichstands for Surf Waves Enjoy Life, a nonprofit
(00:44):
organization dedicated to supporting veteransand first responders.
After serving over two decades as a policeofficer, Rob recognized the profound need for
mental health support among our nation'sheroes.
Through SWELL, he combines his passion forsurfing with a mission to help others
decompress, disconnect, and reinvigorate.
Rob, welcome to the show.
(01:05):
Extraordinary.
Appreciate you having me.
Yeah, man.
Thank you for coming on.
So you guys were here in San Diego.
When was that?
A couple weeks ago?
Yeah.
First weekend in April.
First weekend in April.
It's gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about what you guys weredoing and what that event was.
Yeah, so, you know, when we founded, we'realways looking to form communities with other
(01:30):
organizations that are like-minded, maybe havethe same kind of core mission to serve.
Through that, we found three otherorganizations that support military and first
responders.
That's Pendleton Surf Club, One More Wave,Veterans Service Alliance, and then us.
And really, we wanted to come together for lastyear, which was the first year, to just have a
(01:55):
camping surfing trip with all the leadershipand members and just kick it and see what we
could do to collaborate with one another tokind of support each other.
Because like I said, we do basically the samecore things, but we do things a little bit
differently.
And it was really cool to see the supportreally kind of forming a coalition around what
we're trying to accomplish.
(02:16):
And it's that whole tribe mentality, strongertogether.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And how do you how would you say that you dothings, like, differently than some of those
other organizations?
Or what where where's the what's what's SWELL'sflavor of it?
Yeah.
I certainly don't want to speak to the othermissions because I'm sure I'd dork it up
(02:36):
somehow.
But SWELL's unique in the fact that we'rebringing a lot of people that are not on the
coast or really familiar with surfing from allover the nation.
We bring them out to generally Huntington Beachon the West Coast, and they get four days of
surfing, community meals.
They kind of live together in the same Airbnbbeach house.
(03:00):
We do breath work, a little bit of yoga, andjust provide them with some tools.
We've got an expert in self-care who spoke withyou not too long ago, Matt Domianci.
Yeah.
He comes out and gives a talk, and it's reallyorganic.
So it's kind of a peer support function,really.
And then obviously with that, we surf, and theparticipants are partnered with either an
(03:21):
active-duty service member, a veteran, or afirst responder as their surf coach for the
weekend.
Yeah, does SWELL kind of focus primarily onfirst responders as opposed to like the veteran
and military side, or is that not really adistinction?
Yeah, it's not really a distinction.
I would say for our mission in particular,there's a lot of bleed over right between a lot
(03:47):
of active-duty firefighters and police officersthat are veterans.
And we have done veteran-only trips that aren'tfirst responders.
So it's kind of a mixed bag, really.
So we don't really distinguish, and, you know,the traumas are very different as far as when
you talk about acute trauma being in themilitary in a very action-packed deployment
versus, you know, 20 years of kind ofcumulative traumas with some acute sprinkled in
(04:10):
there too.
But the effect's the same when it goes to ourprogram.
Right.
Yeah.
No.
Tell me a little bit about your background.
I knew that you worked in law enforcement, butI really don't know much about your history.
What's the Sanderson origin story?
Yeah.
It was wild.
I grew up a Navy brat, so my dad was a fighterpilot.
(04:32):
Always admired men and women in uniform.
I always knew I wanted to serve.
I actually went through Marine Corps OCS, met alot of nice corpsmen there because I got hurt a
lot.
Yeah.
The last couple days I was at OCS, I ended uphaving such a bad blood infection and through
the blisters in my heels.
They're like, dude, you're out of here.
You gotta come back next doorway.
(04:54):
Wow.
Yeah.
So in the middle of that period of time, 9/11happened.
And I was like, man, I need to get out there.
I need to serve.
And I did a ride-along with a buddy of mine whowas a cop.
And I remember my dad called me the morning of9/11.
Was like, asked me a really crazy question thatkind of caught me off guard.
He's like, what are you gonna do about this?
(05:15):
Like, we just got attacked.
What are you gonna do about this?
You're the next generation.
Wow.
And so yeah, so I went to the police academy inFebruary 2002.
Started my career in '03 in Gulfport,Mississippi, of all places.
It's a wild story how I wound up there.
I've never even been to Mississippi till Istarted the academy, but ended up down there
and worked on the Gulf Coast for four years.
(05:37):
It was it was a good time, man.
It was back when, you know, the communityrespected the officers for the most part.
And the bad guys, there was like a mutualrespect where they understood what was coming
if they acted up.
Right.
And we treated everybody with respect, I'd liketo say.
Right.
And then Katrina hit.
We got blown pretty hard-core down there whenit came to damage.
(06:01):
We actually had more storm damage than NewOrleans, but, you know, clearly, larger
population, more media attention.
So we're about 45 minutes east of there.
And after that, I spent, gosh, like, six monthsstraight of just storm recovery.
Right?
So I think I worked 48 days straight of 16-hourshifts without a day off.
(06:24):
Then six months, like five days a week, like12- to 16-hour shifts.
Did a lot of crazy stuff flying around inhelicopters doing food drops, did a lot of body
recovery.
In the middle of that, they sent policeofficers kind of from all over that came to
help us out and firefighters and you name it,federal agencies.
And I was recruited from an agency that camedown to work with us to come up to Kansas City
(06:48):
to work.
And so about nine months after Katrina, movedup to Kansas City again, never even been to
Kansas City.
Really?
Couldn't probably even point it out on a map,to be honest with you, then aim for the center
of the U.S., furthest away from the coast, andhad a great career up there.
Did everything from pedaling a bicyclethroughout the streets, catching bad guys that
(07:09):
way, and spent four years undercoveroperations.
Bought a lot of dope for DEA and FBI.
That was fun.
And even just the little local jokers.
And they ended up with a back injury andretiring in 2020.
And then spent the next few years as acivilian, managing civilian staff for a buddy
(07:30):
of mine who got a chief job up here in themetro.
Interesting.
Now you said something about, you know, back inthe day or like, you know, kind of around the
time that you joined, there was more of like amutual respect for law enforcement and even a
mutual sort of like acknowledgment between, youknow, the bad guys and cops as well.
(07:53):
How do you see that has sort of changed overtime?
Like, what's been your perspective, and what doyou think could be driving that?
Yeah.
So I think it's more than just looking at thosetwo factions in a vacuum.
I think it's a societal change.
Like, we just have less respect for oneanother, period, and differing points of view.
(08:16):
Like, it was weird.
Like, I think I called bad guys back then couldsee things through the lens of what I was doing
and trying to accomplish.
And then like vice versa, there was like commonground regardless of where we sat.
Right.
And as long as you weren't over the topdisrespectful one way or the other, either the
bad guy or the cops, like, generally, you couldget along pretty well.
(08:38):
And for some reason, you know, there's a numberof reasons.
I want to say for some reason that Yeah.
Went about getting political.
But there's been erosion of that throughoutsociety of just, you know, mutual respect,
empathy on both sides and just perspective.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
It does seem that like well, you know, and ontop of that, again, not to like get too
(09:03):
political, but, you know, I don't mind kind ofgoing to some of these.
It seems like there's been a form of likeweaponized incompetence, you know, regarding,
like, you know, I mentioned earlier before westarted recording, I had a I had a squatter in
a house that I bought, you know, for rent, youknow, to rent out.
(09:25):
And this dude was going through a divorce orsaid he just got divorced.
I was looking for a place to stay.
You know, I was looking for a month-to-monthcontract.
I kind of like drew it up, drew up a lease,rented it out, and within one month of him
moving in there, he stopped paying and sort of,you know, absolutely wrecked the place.
(09:50):
And you don't you want as a citizen of yourcity, you look to law enforcement and the
judicial system and a lot of these othersystems that are meant to keep society ordered.
In one Mad Max realm, you go with pipes andstart beating this guy for stealing your house
(10:17):
basically.
But we don't want to live in that type ofanarchy, right?
You want to be able to, you know, we live in asystem of laws
no more We pay taxes, right?
Yeah, that's what we pay taxes for.
It's what we, you know, but so what the thestep typically from there since it's a civil
situation is you go and you evict him.
(10:39):
You gotta you post some notices.
Hey.
Three-day notice to pay or quit.
Ten-day notice to pay or quit.
Then you file an unlawful detainer and thiskind of is the process.
But I guess what I learned through thishorrible process, and in some states they do it
better than others.
Like for example, I've heard in like Texas andin Florida, even New Mexico where I'm from, you
(11:04):
know, it's ten-day process and you go and filesome paperwork and within ten days, if the
person's still there and hasn't paid, thesheriff comes out and locks them out of the
house and that's it.
It's two weeks maybe of an ordeal.
It took me six months.
(11:28):
And I learned through this whole thing was thatduring COVID, you know, when everything kind of
closed down, they closed down all of theseeviction courts as well.
Meanwhile, there was an eviction moratorium,right?
So they were making it to where you couldn'tevict people because they didn't want people to
be evicted because they lost their job and theycouldn't pay rent.
(11:49):
Like, I guess, you know, it's coming from agood place.
But then after they opened up the world and gotall these eviction courts, they only opened one
eviction court for the city of San Diego.
And there's a backlog of four years ofevictions that needed to take place.
(12:11):
And so if you're you know, if you're a bad guy,I guess, if you're somebody who is trying to
weaponize this situation, you know all thesethings.
You know just as far as you can push it, justlike right where that realm is, where the
system that is meant to protect order actuallyprotects disorder and injustice.
(12:37):
Know?
And then
understand.
The dude Yeah.
The dude got six months of free rent off of theUN loan.
Just three free rent.
And then, you know, since I'm the greedyhomeowner, I had to go hire attorneys to do
this, but the city pays for his attorneys, youknow, because he's like a low-income person,
whatever.
And so it was like, my property taxes aredefending him against, you know, getting my
(13:03):
house back.
And you see this and you're like, dude, thisjust feels so backward.
Like I'm all for, you know, you don't want somelike a single mom who loses her job and three
days later her landlord kicks her out on thestreet.
Like I understand the need to have protectionsand you know, not everyone is a nice person,
(13:26):
but at the same time, it's like the fabric ofsociety starts disintegrating when you make it
to where this weaponized incompetence, that'skind of how I see it.
But moving into
That's a lot, man.
I mean
feel like I should give you a
hug.
Dude, I mean, we're way past this.
(13:48):
We've gotten it, you know, handled andwhatever.
But it's just one of those things that I'veseen in my own life because we're all kind of
like, you know, you see stories on the newsand, you know, you know, there's you have
people from Kansas, you know, they'll be like,San Francisco is such a mess.
I'm like, have you ever been to San Francisco?
Like, you know I Like, do you you know, it doeskind of raise to the level of, like, these are
(14:11):
culture war political stories, but, you know,it's only once it kind of enters your life.
You know?
You're a defund the police person until yourcar gets stolen.
And then you're like, well, calling the police,what do you mean that there's not enough
officers to send out to the and well, yeah, youknow, it's like, it's a nice tagline until you
(14:33):
need someone to come help you.
You know?
What do you think about that?
Yeah.
I think the problem's just getting worse too.
Because for the last, I don't know, you nameit, eight or so years, we've really beat down
public servants.
Mhmm.
Pretty awfully.
I mean, law enforcement in the forefront, buteven firefighters feel it too.
(14:56):
Right?
Really?
And now it's like, who wants to do the job?
Because you don't make a lot of money.
I mean and the risk is real, you know?
Right.
And so when you don't have a lot of applicantsthat wanna do that job, you're starting to
scrape the bottom of the barrel and theproblem's just gonna perpetuate.
So you're and there are really great people outthere that still wanna do that job and they're
(15:20):
just as good of an applicant as I was, but Itell you this, they're also hiring people that
don't need to be doing this job.
And so you're gonna see, in my opinion, a lotof these issues get even worse when it comes to
lack of training knowledge, just capabilitiesof handling stressful situations or, you know,
nutty people or violent people.
(15:42):
Right.
We're not recruiting the highest quality folksright now, which is unfortunate.
And so we're starting to see that now with callvolume stacking.
Really?
I know in Kansas City, if you call 911 attimes, you'll be on hold for 30 minutes
regardless of what's going on.
So there's not enough people to answer thecalls.
Wow.
And there's not enough cops to go to them.
(16:03):
Wow.
So yeah, it's a real problem.
Any big city I'm sure, you know, out there onthe West Coast is no different.
Mhmm.
Have you thought about, you know, have you everhypothesized, like, what would be a solution to
this?
You know what I mean?
Do you pay cops more?
Do you like, what what what is sort of doesthat even affect the situation?
(16:24):
I think that's one part of it.
Right?
And this is not coming from anything other thanmy perspective of one little guy.
Of course.
Of course.
I'm not saying this is a solution, but I feellike if you made a national standard, right,
of, like, very similar to the military as faras, you know, fitness standards, education
(16:46):
standards, training standards.
And I'm not saying the military does it great,but at least there's like a standard.
Whereas, you know, a cop here in Kansas City isgonna get judged by, you know, a cop that's in
Oklahoma.
Who knows what their standards are?
Because I can tell you right now, they'revastly different.
Yeah.
When it comes to educational training, traininghours for continuing education.
(17:10):
And you have very professional departments andyou have very unprofessional departments and
the cop that is at the professional departmentis getting judged by the actions across the
nation of somebody that isn't.
So I think that's the start of it, right?
And then if we can make it to this is probablya poor example now given the political
rhetoric, but, you know, like the FBI is heldin high regard, the DEA or whatever these
(17:35):
federal organizations, if we can boost locallaw enforcement to that level, whether it comes
to mirroring pay, but also training andexpectations, I think eventually you're gonna
wash some people out, but you're gonna build ahigher standard.
I think the other thing we need to do is weminimize the amount of crap that they send us
on, right?
Mental health calls, certainly, if there's aweapon involved, and there's imminent threat of
(17:59):
bodily harm, but we're just the local cop isjust the catchall for anything that doesn't fit
the box.
Right.
So we're wasting a ton of time on that.
And we're also putting them in a bad positionand also the citizens in a bad position.
And you could just list the number ofunfortunate uses of force that have, you know,
related into killings that possibly could havebeen prevented.
(18:22):
I'm not pointing out just one.
Sure.
There's multiple.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, an aspect of that too is that, like,you gotta think that police are generally
intervening in somebody's worst day.
You know what I mean?
Like, if the cops are dealing with you, it'snot because you're at a bake sale.
(18:48):
You know?
It's like something's going on.
And over the course of a career, you know, it'slike, you know, like, you get a new car and
then you see that car everywhere you go.
Like, it's that bias.
So it's like if your daily interaction withstrangers is skewing towards, it's gonna be a
(19:08):
negative interaction, I feel like that kind ofbleeds into interactions that maybe aren't so
bad and that you might, you know, come out witha different perspective, but you're kind of
loaded in the back of your mind going like,hey.
Like, this person could have a weapon.
You know?
All of these kind of, you know, triggers thatexist in those interactions and, you know,
(19:33):
using that as, like, a segue into what I wannatalk about next, how do you think that
contributes to burnout?
Yeah.
I mean, what you're describing is exactly whatI saw throughout my career.
It's those officers that are constantly in thatsympathetic response to where they're
hypervigilant, and they just assume the worst.
(19:56):
Right.
Not only that, but they've already completelyoverfilled their bucket with giving a shit.
So to show empathy to another person regardlessof the circumstances is just not within them.
Right.
And that's a shame.
And really, that boils down to a lack ofpositive outlet, a lack of emotional
intelligence, a lack of training, and probablya lack of self-care.
(20:22):
Not probably, definitely a lack of self-care.
Yeah,
totally.
And, you know, at times, especially afterKatrina, I found myself doing the same thing.
So I'm not sitting here on my soapboxpretending like I was never in that kind of
maxed-out mode because I was.
Right.
You know, and it creeps up on you, and youdon't really understand that it's there until
(20:43):
you experience it, and then it takes a level ofemotional intelligence to recognize it because
some people never snap out of that.
Right.
Right.
It's like even if you had the best applicantsunder the best conditions, with the best
training, it's like, yeah, if you're not kindof addressing and deconflicting these
mechanisms that are causing that, it's like noone is above that, you know.
(21:09):
You can't exist in that sympathetic nervousfight-or-flight stage forever, and, you know,
with that, if you're not allowing forreregulation, it's gonna creep up on anyone.
Yeah.
So what do we do?
We make them work more overtime.
Yeah.
We make them drink energy drinks.
(21:30):
Right.
Slam nicotine.
Right.
Zero downtime, and it just constantly makes theproblem even worse.
And yeah.
I don't know what the answer is.
Yeah.
Other than surfing.
Surf therapy, I mean, that seems to be.
So how did you kinda get into surf therapy?
Where was I mean, as somebody who doesn't liveby the coast, where did that kind of enter your
(21:55):
consciousness?
Yeah.
So it didn't start off as surf therapy.
As a matter of fact, before or when I startedSWELL, I had no idea what surf therapy was even
as we were starting.
I just I grew up surfing, and I constantly madesurf trips all over to meet buddies.
You know, I kinda cut my teeth on the TexasGulf Coast, which, yes, there's actually surf
(22:17):
there.
Is it good?
Rarely, but it's fun.
So, yeah, when I moved to Kansas City, I wasjust constantly making trips to go see our
mutual friend, you know, Reggie.
Yeah.
And he was in the Coast Guard and he'd bestationed, you know, different locations,
whether it be San Diego or L.A.
or wherever we'd meet out in Costa Rica.
(22:38):
So I just knew when I came back from those surftrips, you know, whether they be quarterly or
every couple of months, I just felt better.
Again, ignorant to surf therapy or what it wasdoing.
Just know when I came back, I was like, man, Ijust like my bucket was empty.
I had that kind of capacity to take on morecrap.
And so I started taking friends of mine thathad never been that were either veterans, first
(23:02):
responders or both with me.
And I started to see like a real change in themtoo.
I was like, I wonder if there might besomething here.
And kind of simultaneously, I'd beeninteracting with a group that does equine
therapy for veterans and first responders herein Kansas City.
And I was like, man, I wonder if we could, youknow, put together some sort of nonprofit just
fund these trips for these guys to come outwith us, you know, meet up with Reggie and Adam
(23:25):
and everybody and we'll just go surf.
And so that's kind of how it kicked off.
We started our paperwork in like 2019 and thenmade our first trip in 2020.
That's interesting.
Yeah, I wonder.
I wonder it.
I want to ask you if you think that becausesurf therapy doesn't feel like therapy, you
(23:49):
know what I mean?
Like people think of these like medicalinterventions or, you know, it's like it's
somebody with a master's or a Ph.D.
in this and you got to be in like a clinic or aclinical setting.
Like these are very obviously relaxed settings.
It's like it's people hanging out at the beachand going surfing.
It's kind of a two-part question.
(24:09):
So on one hand, I could see that that makes itvery approachable because it's like, you know,
not in that setting.
But I wonder if that also prevents it frombeing taken seriously by precincts and, you
know, maybe these large organizations writlarge because they're like, they're assuming
(24:33):
that the type of help needs to be given from adoctor, you know, kind of deal.
What have you noticed?
Yeah, so I mean, those are two great points.
And we recognize that very early on.
So when we were just trying to convince peopleto go to the Pacific Ocean with us, we never
talked about therapy.
Right.
Never mentioned it.
(24:54):
Just said, Hey, want to take you out, gosurfing, it's gonna be a good time to get
relaxed.
And we're going to cover all the costs, justkick back.
And so given the amount of effort they wouldneed to put into it other than just taking some
days off from work, the lift was pretty lightfor them, they said they'd be willing to go.
So that's how we kind of continue to sell ittoday, although the word's out.
(25:15):
And then I also knew that we needed some sortof proof that what we're doing is effective.
So starting like our very first mission in2020, we would collect data pre- and
post-mission surveys, and it's based on the newGSE scale.
And we would measure improvement inself-efficacy, improvement in anxiety,
depression, and stress.
(25:36):
And so have those stats from day one, and wepublish them annually.
And it's pretty shocking.
Now, granted, we take them a week before and aweek after.
And anytime you're talking about statistics orI'm not a scientist, but I know, you know, a
week after the results are not going to be thesame six months later, if they haven't
(25:57):
continued to do the work.
Right.
And find other modes of decompressionthemselves.
Right.
So yeah, I mean, that's kind of how we tackledit.
Now, we've had varying degrees of buy-in fromagencies.
I've had chiefs reach out to me, police andfire, and ask me to take their people.
They funding it?
Hell no.
But at least they're bought in.
(26:20):
We have been able to get some agencies to puttheir men and women out on training days.
So they're actually getting paid, they're notable to take vacation days, but we're still not
to the point to where we had the completebuy-in from agencies, especially in the Midwest
or agencies outside of the West Coast that arewilling to actually fund it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(26:40):
And regarding those surveys, what you said istotally valid about, you know, the week before
and week after.
It's like, you know, we don't know what thelong-term data says, but do you remember some
of the statistics off the top of your head or,like, how much of an improvement people were
experiencing?
Yeah.
When it comes to improving self-efficacy, thequestions that we're asking, believe it or not,
(27:05):
the veterans and first responders think prettyhighly of their capabilities.
So we did see some improvement in self-efficacyand reporting.
I think that might have been skewed just alittle bit.
But the things that we really saw are like, 30to 40 percent decrease in anxiety and
depression, like 28 percent decrease in stress.
(27:26):
So and it varies year to year and each group'sdifferent and they have different experiences.
But I mean, like huge chunks, you wouldn't beable to take Xanax for a week to feel that, you
know.
40 percent improvement.
Yeah.
I'm not saying talk therapy wouldn't do that,but really experiential therapies are where
(27:46):
it's at for me.
And it's not a long-term fix, but I think ifthey can walk away with some tools like breath
work, you know, self-regulation, sleep hygiene,things like that, that it can be a sustainable
thing.
And we've seen it, you know, because I'm stillfriends with just about everybody that I've
taken out to this day.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
(28:06):
And I think, you know, I wanna ask you in aminute kind of like, what do you think it is
about surfing specifically?
But, you know, more to the point, I think thatit's about finding something.
When you can kind of distill what is thebenefit of surf therapy, then you can realize
that like, oh, there are other things that havethis, if it's flow state or whatever the case
(28:30):
is.
But before I ask you, I want to tell you alittle bit about how I got into surf therapy
and what it did for me.
So I got injured while I was in the militaryand I was essentially being medically separated
and going through that whole process, comingfrom a special operations community, you think
(28:52):
highly of yourself, you think of yourself aslike strong, capable, all of this and your
identity is so heavily tied into where you'reat, your reputation, what other people think of
you on your team, etc.
And all of a sudden, all of that gets putcalled in question.
(29:14):
You're losing your job, you're losing yourfriends in a sense, your reputation takes this
massive hit.
And on top of all those like relational issues,you're also losing my mobility.
I was sleeping like shit.
I felt anxious.
(29:35):
I was, you know, sad and depressed that I waslike and surfing was a bit of an escape.
It wasn't a pill.
It wasn't just another doctor's appointmentwhere I was going in.
So I felt like this is fun.
This isn't just like, you know, more woe is me,like sick boy going to the doctor.
(30:02):
And coming from an amphibious specialoperations community, you know, I took pride in
being capable in the water.
You know, this was an element that was mostpeople, you know, you take out first-time
surfers all the time.
(30:22):
They get their ass kicked.
You know what I mean?
It could be like a two- or three-foot day andlike they're like a wet cat drowning, you know,
you get so gassed.
And so that because it was challenging andbecause it sort of pushed my limits in a lot of
ways, it made me feel like once you could startdoing it a little bit, like you got your
(30:45):
confidence back and you're doing something thatis difficult.
It's connecting to nature, and it also has itsown aspect of, like, culture, community in the
same way that, like, the military does, youknow?
So for me, that was, like, a hugely empoweringaspect of it.
(31:07):
And yeah, but I guess now is a good time tokind of segue.
It's like, what do you think, what do you thinkthat it is about surf therapy that makes it
such a good intervention?
Yeah.
Well, I think you hit on a lot of the goodpoints.
I mean, you know, bringing people out therethat have never experienced anything.
Doing hard shit is good for you, whether youlike it or not.
(31:29):
So that it's not an easy sport to learn even ona two- to three-foot day.
It's good to have your ego squashed a littlebit.
Right?
And it gives you some perspective too.
Like, you're out in this giant body and you'renot in control.
You may think you can swim well, get wiped by ahead-high, you know, barrel and it's not
(31:49):
necessarily gonna be the case.
Yeah.
And then, you know, it's the fact that we'rebringing people and putting them into a foreign
environment, and there's some trust that has tobe extended.
So when you're in that sympathetic state,you're not trusting anybody to do anything.
If you can relinquish a little bit of trust toyour surf coach, to me, to bring you out there
(32:10):
and just a little faith that you're gonnasurvive this experience, that's healing.
On top of that, you can't bring your radio outin the lineup.
Can't bring your gun, you don't have your cellphone.
You're given a task that's not an easy one thatyou don't know how to do.
Right.
And if you don't focus on catching that wave,you're not gonna catch it.
Mhmm.
And whether that's, you know, standing up andriding for the first time or just on your
(32:34):
belly, either way, focusing on that and thenthe physical exhaustion of doing something
difficult, learning a new skill.
And probably the coolest thing that youmentioned that I have found in one of our
biggest unintended benefits is that building ofcommunity.
Because a lot of the men and women we take outhad that loss, that sense of loss in their
(32:56):
community because most of them are strugglingwith some form version of whatever letter
diagnosis you want to give them.
And they feel that kind of separation fromtheir community.
Then they're surrounded by people that arethere for them or other participants.
So that's been really cool.
So a lot of that.
(33:16):
And there's something too about being in thewater, being on the sand, being grounded, no
financial worries about why you're out there.
They know that, you know, SWELL's gonna takecare of it.
So that's really, I think, the highlights ofwhat makes it kinda work for people.
Yeah.
That's that's awesome.
Do you have any good, like, anecdotes that youwanna share about, you know, just crazy
(33:40):
transformations that you've seen?
Yeah.
I mean, you never I try to get to knowparticipants a little bit either through Zoom
or phone calls or whatever ahead of time, butyou never really know the impact unless you
stay in touch with some people.
You know, I took a guy out that was recommendedto me by one of the chiefs, and he was involved
(34:02):
in a kind of a crazy shooting.
He wasn't the shooter, but he was in charge anddirecting people to be in certain positions.
One of the people under his command ended upshooting and killing a guy.
And it was justified.
We don't call them good shootings, but it was ajustified shooting.
Right.
And afterwards, the officer that was theshooter ended up quitting, and then he blamed
(34:23):
our participant for ruining his career forputting him in that position.
And he held a lot of guilt, that and a lot ofother factors.
So, we brought him out.
He's a great dude.
Had a good time.
We put one of our peer support participantswith him to kind of keep an eye on him and it
went really well.
(34:44):
And, you know, we've kept in touch and didn'treally think anything of it till you fast
forward a couple years later.
And I was at a peer command or peer supportcommand school, and I was giving a talk about
SWELL.
And one of the commanders stood up, and he wasreferring to this participant.
He says, you know what?
Because I had said, hey, we're trying to keeppeople's jobs.
He's like, say, not only did you save thisperson's job, but I can tell you, you saved his
(35:08):
life.
And I've heard that from him since then.
Wow.
So we've had a lot of really cool kind ofpowerful stories that—excuse my dog.
He's kidding.
Just needing some pets here.
I'm his emotional support
human.
So, yeah, we've had a lot of good success withthat.
We've had people that we brought out to SWELLMissions that then become therapists themselves
(35:34):
or counselors.
And then they're referring their clients, Iguess we call them,
Right.
to us.
And we've brought them out, and they've been anexcellent choice to come out.
So it's kinda cool to see somebody go fromparticipant to now healer, right?
Then referring other people that we can kindahelp together.
So,
Right.
Right.
(35:54):
Yeah.
And I'm sure that that kind of feeds back intothe, like, making this more widespread and
allowing maybe the first precinct to go to orthe first that you try to convince to, hey,
would you send some people out, let them knowif we're trending.
Maybe the answer is no initially or maybe it's,yeah, for sure, but we're not going to pay for
(36:17):
it.
But like, well, you give it a generation, givemany years and many lives touched by this.
And a lot of people that have gone fromparticipants to trainer, you know, I think it
becomes that much easier over the long run toactually kind of create that change.
It kind of has ripple effects, you know,throughout time.
(36:38):
What's the hardest challenge that you run intofrom for your nonprofit?
Yeah.
The need is definitely there.
The most difficult thing is I'm sure you couldprobably guess is funding.
So trying to determine what would make sensefor a donor, whether it be a corporate sponsor
(37:01):
and what their return on investment is.
We've done some pretty cool things here latelyto kind of put us in a better position to
really compete for those dollars.
The first thing we did is I stepped back asdirector, and we put Adam Wright, who's an
active duty warrant officer in the Coast Guard,as director.
He was the deputy director for a while.
He's been with us since the beginning.
(37:21):
He's on the West Coast.
Great dude.
And I'm really excited to see what he's gonnado.
I'm still on the board, still considered afounder, obviously, and here to help and go
surf for sure.
And the other thing we did was put a directorof development in place that's going out and
kind of seeking these donations andsponsorships.
So, obviously, funding's an issue.
(37:43):
Participation and finding participants is notan issue at all.
A whole laundry list of people that would liketo go, which is awesome.
Right.
Because early on, I just, you know, was filledwith a lot of self-doubt, like, man, people
aren't
gonna want to do this.
This is silly.
Really?
Interesting.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'm one of those people that, you know, it tookme probably three years of doing this for me to
really allow myself to feel any sort ofsatisfaction with what we've done.
(38:07):
And that's, that's kind of a shame because I'velet the people down that help support that when
I don't, you know, share in the credit of it.
So, right.
Right.
Yeah.
What is that process like?
Like, to find funding for it?
Like, you know, you can stick a high level orgo as deep as you want, but, like, you know,
how does that work?
We're always on the lookout for any grants orcharitable organizations that put grants out
(38:31):
there.
Government grants are—they don't cover what wedo for the most part.
So fundraisers too.
We hold golf tournaments, raffles, you know,sell T-shirts and, you know, individual.
We've got a whole lot of very giving individualcontacts that'll contribute, which is nice.
(38:52):
So it's everything.
I've, you know, early on, I would sell a kidneyto take somebody on a surf trail.
Yeah.
The first one we ever did, I put everything onmy personal credit card and just hoped to God
that I could afford to pay it off.
And we threw like a gala-style dinner at aplace called Wars for veterans, that
organization I was telling you about.
Yeah.
Thank goodness I was able to pay that off.
(39:13):
You still got your kidneys?
Still got them.
Very fast.
Yeah.
Still got good babies.
I only need one though, so I got one of those.
Yeah.
You could easily sell
I also sell this pup here too.
What kind of dog is he?
He's a Great Dane.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I can see that.
He's gonna
He's a rescue.
He did not have a great start in life.
(39:34):
So, aw.
Now he's squirrel rotten.
He's very thankful.
Let's see, what do you see that is differentwithin the veteran and first responder
community?
Like obviously there is some overlap, butwhat's a big distinction that you see?
(39:55):
Gosh, I feel like the veteran community is kindof headed in the right direction when it comes
to forward thinking on self-care.
I feel as if a lot of the veterans I interactwith are a lot more upfront with kind of
talking about things that are going on withthem, and the police and fire and medics, not
(40:20):
so much.
They're still very guarded.
It almost feels like maybe the veterancommunity 20 years ago.
Mhmm.
And I also see that, you know, the traumas aredifferent.
It seems like veterans get a whole lot of crap,like, a really short amount of time depending
on, you know, what their job was and when theyserved and how many times they were deployed,
(40:42):
you know.
Granted, there are, you know, guys and galsthat have been in the military for 20, 25 years
in multiple deployments, but generallyspeaking, it's kind of short spurts of trauma.
Right.
And then they're out and then it's just like,holy shit, like, I'm on my own now?
Mhmm.
So it seems like very abrupt.
Right.
Whereas most law enforcement, their fire, theircareers are a little bit longer.
(41:04):
But same result, it's like, hey, now you'reout.
And it's like, you know, I retired medicallyafter an injury unexpectedly much like yourself
and experienced very similar things that youdid, with the loss community.
I thought I was a pretty popular guy amongstthe department, and I don't think it was any
(41:24):
stab at me that I don't keep in touch withthose people, but it just kinda out of sight,
out of mind.
That certainly was an issue as well.
So a lot of crossover, but again, there aresome kind of intricate differences.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I wonder back to kind of possiblesolutions or other things like, you know, we at
(41:45):
least have, well, there's an entire Departmentof Veterans Affairs.
You know what I mean?
There's it's a national organization whose solejob is to take care of veterans and their
families.
There's not really anything like that for firstresponders.
Right?
It's all pretty atomized, like, across thenation.
Interesting.
Yeah.
There's I mean, the retirement systems dependon, you know, what state you're in, what city
(42:10):
you're in, because certain cities have theirown pension, certain, you know, states have.
So it's just it's so different across theboard.
Again, I think bringing that back to a nationalstandard to where maybe not a full-on type of
VA scenario for first responders, but some sortof resource out there would be great.
Right.
Right.
You know, I think this statistic's a little bitold, but there for a while, though, the life
(42:34):
expectancy of a cop that retires was, like,five years.
He was dead after he retired.
Wow.
Or she.
Yeah.
And whether that be by their own hands orthrough just poor health, there's just crazy.
Not a whole lot of support out there.
Right.
Once you get out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's not even, like, a term, I guess.
Like, you know, if you were in the military andthen you get out of the military, you're a
(42:58):
veteran.
You know, if you were a cop for five years andthen you're not a cop,
You're called smart.
Just kidding.
Just kidding.
But yeah, you know, I think like even just on acultural level, like there could be simple
things like that that don't necessarily takeinto, you know, the funding of creating a VA
(43:23):
equivalent, but just something that lets peoplefeel like they are still a part of something
and that they were, you know, you thankmilitary people for their service.
You know, most people don't really thank copsfor their service and especially, you know,
it's complicated, I get it, when they're in andthey're kind of, you know, enforcing laws and
(43:45):
whatever, but maybe by the time someone getsout, I feel like there shouldn't be as much
controversy over it and that is something thatwas needed to make society function and it
doesn't cost much but I guess just kind ofbeing thankful, like, I don't know.
What do you think?
What do you think?
(44:06):
Yeah.
That that's an interesting one.
I think, you know, the firefighters certainly,they have no qualms about, you know, wearing
their firefighter T-shirts and their stickersand things like that.
I know most cops, not all because you see themout there, but they really don't want anybody
to know what they did for a living or what theydo for a living.
Mhmm.
(44:26):
Especially the last 10, 15 years, not exactlythe most popular profession.
So I don't know public recognition is really,but some sort of system of support.
Not exactly like the VA, but something out.
Right.
And there's a lot of nonprofits that are doingsome killer work that are stepping up trying to
be that transitional support for people, whichis awesome.
(44:50):
But to me, I think that's something that thegovernment should be funding that people are
given a lot of their themselves, and sometimeslosing, you know, breaking up families and and,
you know, certainly, damaging people, you know,for their service.
Right.
Right.
So we're kind of wrapping up.
(45:11):
I guess I have maybe another one question toask you, and then you can leave us with any
sort of parting remarks.
But what's your favorite cop movie if you haveone?
Oh gosh.
I mean, Let's Be Cops is hilarious.
It's not really a cop movie.
It's like two guys pretending to be cops, butthey're not far from the truth.
(45:31):
Have you seen that?
I feel like I have.
It's not very old, right?
Let's Be Cops.
No, it's not.
Yeah, 2014.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember this movie.
They're not far off, man.
Some of the stuff that happens there.
And I tried to watch this movie again.
I just couldn't bring myself to do it, but Endof Watch is such a good, like
(45:55):
I'm familiar with that.
There's some bullshit Hollywood stuff, youknow, in there.
But, I mean, it's a pretty spot-on one.
Those guys actually did their homework and
Yeah.
That was during the era when, like, everythingwas cool to be, like, really rough cut video
where everything's shaking.
I tried to watch it and I was like
Bro, that's cool.
Like, I love this movie, but I can't watch it.
So but
I think those guys really nailed it when theyput that movie together.
(46:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just saw Warfare.
Have you heard of this movie?
Have you seen it?
Yeah.
How do you see it?
How do you watch it?
You have to like
It's out in the movies.
Oh, it's in the theaters?
Yeah.
It's in theaters.
How is that?
It was it's really good but it's not likeenjoyable, I guess, if that's I could see it
(46:39):
winning some awards like I didn't I honestlydid not know anything about it.
I've seen other Alex Garland movies and, youknow, the trailer looks kinda good but it
doesn't really kinda indicate like what themovie's about.
But yeah, you could tell kind of the same deal.
Like they they did their homework.
(46:59):
Supposedly it's basically one sort of missionthat, you know, happened during the Iraq
invasion.
It's like a SEAL team and the marine elementare kind of working together and they go on
this patrol.
And it's almost like a documentary reenactmentin a sense, pieced together by interviews that
(47:26):
they they did.
So you don't see the interviews, but it waslike a reenactment of their from their memories
of, like, what happened.
But just certain shit, like, you know, thesound of, like, the machine guns, like, hitting
the walls, you know, like the rounds hittingthe walls.
Yeah.
The relative difference in volume between smallarms and then, like, larger fire and an IED
(47:52):
exploding.
It's definitely one that's kind of worth seeingin theaters for that reason is like, you know,
it's wild.
You feel the like explosions like through yourbody in theaters.
Yeah.
I guess that could be triggering for some too.
(48:13):
Oh, for sure.
I imagine it absolutely will be because it'salso like it's not very Hollywood.
Like, there's not there's very little, like,dialogue even in terms of, like, character
development or, like, the boys shooting theshit, like, you know, back in the team room.
Like, it's not really that way.
It's sort of like what was happening in thismission, you know, after this IED goes off, you
(48:40):
know, everyone can't hear.
It's kind of that, like, ear ringing thing.
And then at some point, you kinda hear as theaudience what, you know, you're hearing from
the perspective of everyone involved, and thenyou kinda hear it as, like, the audience.
And there's a guy, like, screaming just like,you know, like, bloody murder.
And you're like, whoa, dude.
(49:01):
Like, it it's not it it does not glamorizecombat by any means.
But yeah, I think it's an important kind ofbookend maybe to our global war on terror.
And I don't I think it's interesting becauselike a lot of military movies, you know, the
(49:24):
DOD sanctions a lot of stuff and it's it doesserve an element of recruitment.
You know what I mean?
Like, Act of Valor specifically was like DODsanctioned.
They're trying to increase SEAL people,applicants.
You know, they wanted to to fill that pipeline.
A lot of movies are that way where it's likethey they put this there there's an agenda
(49:50):
behind it.
Zero Dark 30 was sort of meant to kinda justifyand rationalize the enhanced interrogation
program and to be like, see, well, if it wasn'tfor these controversial methods, we wouldn't
have gotten Saracawi and blah, blah, blah, youknow.
And so this one, kind of it definitely doesn'thave that same flavor, which is interesting
(50:13):
because I hear I go to this like SD MAC, it'slike the San Diego Military Advisory Council
every couple months and they do like breakfast.
And I've always wondered while I was in, youknow, like what what is like the general of
this base do or like of this?
Like where does he go all day?
What's his job?
And like, this is the type of stuff that theydo.
They go out to these, like, breakfasts and thenjust, like, talk about, you know, very, very
(50:35):
high-level stuff.
But one kind of constant theme is that thereare recruitment challenges.
I think pretty much every branch with theexception of maybe the Marine Corps has come up
short on their recruitment.
So they're trying to figure out new ways, likehow do we get people to want to join, you know,
(50:59):
and, you know, I don't know what the answer tothat is.
But, you know, I think it comes down to some ofthe benefits.
Like my life, like, you're in the military, I'msure it's the same while you're a cop, it's
your life kinda sucks.
Like, it's about 95 not cool, 95 not cool stuffand then, like, 5%, like, kinda cool stuff.
(51:21):
You know?
And it's this, like, trauma bonding essentiallythat just, like, gets you through it and, like,
dark humor, you know?
But what I've realized since getting out isthere really are a lot of benefits for military
veterans and, you know, through education andyour health care and a lot of things that I
(51:43):
wasn't even really aware of when I was, youknow, joining and not like I gave a shit
anyway, I was, you know, my early 20s.
But that type of stuff, like when I talk topeople now, I'm like, dude, like, let me talk
about the GI, like, know, let me like, it willchange your life, man.
Like a lot of these things and a lot of peoplejoining, you know, I'm sure the police and as
(52:05):
well, the military, it's like it's lowereconomic brackets.
It's sometimes people with kind of like, don'treally know what to do with my life.
I don't know where to go.
And if you could just be like, hey, if you'regonna go do this thing, it's serving your
country.
It's serving your community in some way, shape,or form.
Then when you get out, you're gonna have, youknow, a lot of advantages.
(52:29):
You know, I think that's one way of maybe doingit but
Yeah.
For sure.
So Rob, what do you want to leave everybodywith?
How do you—where can they find you?
What kind of events do you guys have coming up?
What's the next chapter for the SWELL mission?
Yeah.
So, first off, they go to our website.
(52:52):
Just recently relaunched.
It's www.theswell.org.
Next thing on the horizon, we're looking to doa June veterans trip.
We're hopefully got that all booked up, readyto go.
And then October, same spot down there at CampPendleton, we're doing the military surf
(53:13):
competitions in conjunction with Pendleton SurfClub, One More Wave, and VSA.
So super stoked on that.
Future is Adam Wright's gonna get this thinggoing a hell of a lot better than I ever did,
and I'm here to support him.
Sick.
I'm just I'm blessed that I got to spend, youknow, five years at the helm meeting people
like yourself and Matt and Patrick Nardooleyand just several of your other guests.
(53:35):
Just stoked to meet new great people that Iwouldn't have otherwise been able to meet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I would love to support your guys' mission onsome of the upcoming trips you guys have going
on.
Set up some coffee and
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
And if you're enjoying the show and you want tosupport what we're building, check out Wind and
(53:57):
Sea Coffee.
You'll get the best tasting adaptogen blendsout there and help fuel the podcast in the
process.
But Rob, this has been great.
Thank you so much for coming on.
This is the Mind Body Mushroom and yeah, checkus out.
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