September 25, 2025 • 47 mins
In this inspiring story, Rik shares how insomnia brought him to his knees — and how he slowly rewired fear into freedom. From panic attacks to the loneliness of sleepless nights, he describes what it was like to feel trapped in the cycle of anxiety and exhaustion.
But through patience, community, and a new understanding of the mind, Rik discovered something profound: freedom isn’t perfect sleep. It’s letting go of the fight.
“The wild thing is dealing with insomnia… it's just kind of letting it be—that's what fixes it.”
You’ll hear:
- Why medical fixes (like CPAP, supplements, and strict rules) didn’t solve the struggle
- The role of community in easing loneliness and breaking the cycle
- How Rik learned that sleep doesn’t require calmness or perfection to happen
- What it looks like to shift from fighting insomnia to accepting it
- Why recovery is messy, non-linear, and still full of hope
- The surprising ways progress shows up
- How neuroplasticity helps rewire fear into freedom
If you’re struggling, Rik’s story is a powerful reminder that hope is real, recovery is possible, and you are not alone 🧡
Connect with Beth:
👉 Instagram
Work with Beth:
👉 Learn About the Mind. Body. Sleep. Mentorship
👉 Start the Free Insomnia Course Here
Full Show Notes & Transcription HERE.
About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:
For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.
© 2023 - 2025 Beth Kendall
DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurances as to any particular outcome.
Mind. Body. Sleep.® with Beth Kendall is your trusted source for holistic insomnia recovery, blending neuroplasticity, nervous system health, and mind-body coaching to help you finally sleep again.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the podcast.
Today I am so glad to be doinganother hope story because these
(00:29):
are definitely the most listenedto podcast episodes, and it's
always such an honor to be ableto sit down with someone that
I've had the opportunity to workwith and talk about them and
their story.
So today, Rick is joining us.
A big hello and welcome to you,Rick.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Hello.
Thank you for having me on.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Well, thanks so much for coming on because I know
you've already had a fullworkday today and you're you're
probably starving because youdidn't have a lot of time
between getting home and andhopping on the call.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
No, yeah, I didn't eat lunch today, but that's kind
of normal at work.
So I'll usually eat dinneraround like 5:30 and then yeah,
and then hang out until I go tobed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
Okay, well, perfect.
Okay, so let's just start kindof how I always start, if you
wouldn't mind, just taking usback and telling us a little bit
about how insomnia started foryou and what that was like.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I remember it started uh end ofApril, early uh May of last
year.
I got sick.
Yeah.
Just like a normal, your averagehead cold.
And I remember like one night,you know, and whenever I was
sick, what I would do back inthe day was just take a ton of
NyQuil and just pass out.
And I remember like I wouldsleep great.
And I remember for whateverreason that night, I kept waking
(01:54):
up, it kept waking up, and itwas like I was snoring myself
awake.
I'm like, this is weird.
Like, okay, what's going onhere?
And it kept waking up, felt likeI didn't get any sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Go to the doctor, and you know, she's like, hey,
like, your blood pressure is alittle high.
And so then that's one morething building on the on the
anxiety.
I'm like, oh, that's weird,okay.
And I remember like went homethat night, got some good sleep,
and then went back to work.
And remember it was a Friday,and I got home from work, or got
home from hanging out with mybuddies that Friday, and same
(02:27):
thing.
I kept like now it's morepronounced.
Like I kept every 10 minutes itfelt like snore myself awake.
And like I remember it was likeat some point four in the
morning, and I think I had whatwas like a panic attack.
I'd never I've always been kindof you know an anxious person,
or what am I calling?
My mom called me a worry wart.
But I remember legit having likea feeling I was gonna throw up
(02:50):
and I'm like sweating and justfreaking out.
I'm like, why can't I fallasleep?
Like, what is happening here?
Like, what is going on?
So freaked out, ended up callingmy mom at like 6 30.
She's like, hey, what's goingon?
I kind of told her whathappened, and she's like, okay,
well, like, how are you feelingnow?
I'm like better, but still kindof like that was really weird.
(03:12):
And she's like, Well, hey, like,take it easy today, kind of
relax if you can, and just seewhat happens tonight.
You know, maybe it's the coldaffecting you.
I'm like, okay.
So then that night I passed outpretty hard.
I was like, okay, cool, I'mcured, we're good to go here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
And then the next day, it just stuck in my brain,
I remember.
And I was just kind of on edgeall day.
And then sure enough, that nightwe got ready to go to bed, and
it felt like I didn't sleep allnight.
And then I was like, oh man,that's that was uh Sunday going
into Monday.
So I go into work Monday justlike a zombie.
(03:48):
My boss's like, you alright?
I'm like, yeah, I couldn't sleeplast night.
And so then it's even more mybrain, and then I go home that
night.
Don't sleep that night.
I'm like, what is happening?
Like this is this is insane.
And then I think the next couplenights slept, I think, because
my body was just so tired,slept, and it would just kind of
(04:10):
be that pattern, and then itturned from like the snoring
keeping me awake to I just feltlike I wasn't gonna sleep at
all, and I would just lie thereand just the stress, and I had
sweat, and I'm like, what ishappening?
Like, what is going on here?
Yeah, and it just keeps gettinglike more and more ingrained in
your brain, and then all of asudden, you know, now you're
(04:32):
just I started feeling likeanxious, just anxious like all
the time.
So, first thing, like I feelit's so funny because I feel
like you hear this across theboard.
First thing I do, go to thedoctor.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Like like you do.
You're like, oh my god, yeah.
The doctor, he can they can fixanything.
What is wrong with me?
SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
So I go there and she's like, Yeah, you know, your
blood pressure's a little high,you got this, you got that, but
uh, I'm not gonna really writeyou anything for sleeping, you
know, go.
You should get a sleep studydone.
I'm a bigger guy, so definitelyshe's like, get a sleep study
done, this, that, and the other.
I'm like, okay.
And then it's just persisting.
And there's some nights I'dsleep, but I would wake up and
(05:12):
feel like I didn't sleep at all,even though I'd got you know,
six, seven hours, I would justbe so on edge the next day.
It was miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Yeah.
Let me ask, I can't remember.
Was prior to then this was itwas like early 2024, you said.
Yeah.
So did you was snoring in thepicture at all prior to that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Like I knew I snored, and I'dokay.
I'd snole myself awake from timeto time.
Like, especially if I wassleeping on my back, I'd wake
myself up.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
But like anything, like it wasn't in my brain, I
didn't think of it.
I was just like, okay, and thenjust roll over and I was fine.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
And but now all of a sudden it's warmed itself into
your brain.
And I noticed leading up tothis, I had started to kind of
waking up at you sometimebetween 2:30 and 3.15 in the
morning.
Yeah.
And it's like anything, the moreyou pay attention to it, the
more it kind of sticks around.
Yeah.
And I was like, that's reallyweird.
I need to like try to fix that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Yeah.
So I mean, this is like, okay,so now you're moving into the
medical model, you're going tothe doc the doctor, which of
course we all do.
And then this the whole thingstarts with the sleep studies
and and all of that.
And this is when therelationship with sleep really
starts to change.
Okay, so what happened?
So how did it go after that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
So of course, it takes forever to get a sleep
study.
So finally I get, you know, I goin, I see the doctor, and it's
we're at our institute out herein Scottsdale.
Yeah.
You know, nothing but reallyhigh marks.
So I go in, I talk to thedoctor, and he's like, okay,
we're gonna do a sleep study.
I'm like, but hey, like Iobviously have sleep apnea.
I'm gonna accept that, but like,why can't I fall asleep?
(06:47):
And he's like, well, we'll putyou on a CPAP and you'll fall
asleep.
And I'm like, I don't thinkyou're understanding what I'm
saying here.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
And, you know, to their credit, like, they don't
they don't understand, right?
And they're just there lookingat the medical side of things.
Right.
He's like, no, no, once we getyou your CPAP and your sleep
study, you'll be fine.
I'm like, okay, sure.
All right, hopefully this fixesit.
Yeah.
So they'd give me the at-homesleep study.
I take that, give it, yeah, youhave horrible sleep apnea.
(07:15):
Here you go, here's your newCPAP and your mask, which you
know, I joked, I called it myfighter pilot mask because it
covered my my nose and my mouth.
Yeah.
And so, like, now on top ofsomebody who already can't
sleep, you're gonna add this tothe mix.
And if I move the wrong way, itbreaks the seal and it's leaking
air and just miserable.
(07:37):
And I remember like at thistime, like we always have you
know, family vacation on the 4thof July at my parents' house,
and I go out there, and my youknow, my mom's like I feel my
mom's like, what is wrong withyou?
And I'm telling her this, andyou know, she's like, Well, you
can you just try to relax?
No, I can't try to relax.
Like, yeah, all I can thinkabout is how I can't sleep, and
(08:00):
it just makes everything worse.
And it was weird for me becauseI just remember being at work
was almost a reprieve because Iwould be distracted there, but
on the drive home, I'd startgetting the feeling the pit of
my stomach and just gettingworked up and like what had once
been my like sanctuary of youknow, chill at my house was now
(08:21):
like felt like a prison.
And then, you know, I'd sit onmy couch, you know, barely eat
dinner because I was just soracked with anxiety.
Yeah, and then as it got darkand then closer to bedtime, the
anxiety would get worse.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
And I'd get in my bed and I would just start the
cold sweats, and I would belike, Well, maybe I'll sleep
tonight.
Maybe I won't.
And it was absolutely miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
So you knew it wasn't sleep apnea.
What did you think was going onat this time?
Or was that part of what was soscary?
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Is that so that was the scariest part?
So then at that time, like atwork, I'm starting to struggle.
And I have my two bosses, uh Lexand Kedra, are fantastic.
I love working for them.
So they're trying to get me helpthrough the through the police
department and great supportstructure.
So I'm talking to them and theylook at my past and they're
like, oh my God, like you know,you have some mild
(09:16):
post-traumatic stress you have,you probably have anxiety, this,
that.
So I get into therapy, starttalking to a therapist, then she
sends me to uh a psychiatrist,he evaluates me, and he's like,
you know, everyone says, like,yeah, you probably had looks
like you have some generalizedanxiety, uh, maybe a little
(09:36):
post-traumatic stress in there.
And I'm like, okay, like thatmakes sense.
And they're like, you're notsleeping because you have
anxiety, which is kind of true.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
But it's you know, it's anxiety.
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
Not the full picture, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yeah, not the full picture.
So I'm like, okay, well, I justI just have to get rid of this
anxiety.
So I'm determined and I'mmeditating every day, and I'm
doing going on walks, and I'mdoing this, because in my mind,
if I get rid of this anxiety andpush it out the door, my sleep
will come right back.
And it, as we all know, does notwork that way.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
And then I would do the worst thing too, like
horrible.
Like I'd be googling everything,going on Reddit, uh, like right
out of the gate.
I cut out coffee, I cut outthis, I cut out that, I took
this supplement, I didn't takethat vitamin and going down that
rabbit hole.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Oh, yeah, that's that's all of us, you know.
It's kind of like thelow-hanging fruit, you know,
it's kind of what you heareverywhere, and it's, you know,
and then it and then when thatdoesn't really help, you're
really nervous and scared andwondering, probably really
wondering what in the hell isgoing on.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Yeah, because my entire life, I was always a
light sleeper.
I'd wake up really easily, but agreat sleeper.
Like I could fall asleep at thedrop of a hat.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
And if I wanted to, I mean, I could sleep until, you
know, 10, 11, sometimes noon,depending on how tired I was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
So to all of a sudden have it, like I couldn't
fall asleep.
Like everyone says, like I feltlike my brain was broken.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
Yep.
Yeah.
And you know what, Rick?
That's not unusual for it tocome on like that, you know,
where somebody just never has anexperience like that.
And it can be just a singlesleepless night, you know, and
it's so understandable.
So by now it's probably whatsummertime?
And you're seeing yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
Yeah, we were in late August.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Okay.
Wow.
So you're going all summer withthis.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
And then just on top of that, the heat out here in
Arizona just makes everythingeven more unbearable.
So I'm just uh hot, anxious,sweaty mess who hasn't slept at
all.
SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
And just super fun.
Super fun.
It's a good times.
Yeah.
And then you start doing thething that I find typical for a
lot of people is you stop goingout with your friends, you stop
doing stuff because you just youread everything, and it's this
is a stimulus, and that's astimulus, and that's going to
keep you awake, and this isgonna keep you awake.
And you're just like, oh my God,like don't look at your phone,
don't watch TV, don't do this,don't do that.
(12:09):
And you're trying all thesethings, and it's just making
everything worse.
I feel like the only thing Ididn't do was CBTI, because kind
of reading it, I'm like, oh myGod, like you're gonna tell me,
like, how am I supposed to timehow long I've been in bed?
I'm gonna be looking at my clockevery 20 minutes.
Like, there's no way that'sgonna work for me.
(12:30):
So at least I knew that was notgonna be a route for me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Yeah, I'm so glad.
I'm so glad you had that, youknow, inner voice to say you
just even by reading it,recognizing that that wouldn't
be a good fit.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
Yeah, I was like, this is gonna be a disaster if I
do this.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So I remember, you know, there'sso many things that come along
with this experience, andthere's so many ways your life
gets like more and more limited,just like you said, like your
world can get smaller andsmaller because everything kind
of becomes this landmine, youknow.
And I remember when we weretalking and I asked you, you
(13:06):
know, what was the hardest part,and you said it was the
loneliness.
Does that still feel true?
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Oh, absolutely, and that's why like I try to, you
know, hop on the venture shipwhenever I can and talk to
people because I just rememberthat because none of my friends
experience this.
Yeah, none of my family haveexperienced this, and it's just
as you sit there in your bed at2 45 in the morning, just
(13:34):
wrapped with anxiousness andwondering why you can't sleep,
you feel so alone.
Yeah, and it just it sucked.
Like it was awful.
Like it I've been to some someintense things in my life, and I
came out the other side.
I'm like, all right, okay.
But this like brought me to myknees, and I like I remember
talking to my bosses at work,just crying because you don't
(13:56):
know what's wrong with you, andyou seemingly can't fix this,
and it just came so out of theblue, and it was it was brutal.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, I think a lot of peoplelistening will completely relate
to that, and I know I do aswell.
So, what finally brought youinto this approach?
I know that you were at thesleep coach school initially,
and then you found your way tothe mentorship.
So you, you know, you alreadyhad such a a good foundation
(14:26):
coming in.
How did you even find it?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
Was it just of all places Reddit?
Oh, you did?
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Okay, well, there's sometimes Reddit, you know, it's
Reddit to the rescue every oncein a while.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
And I found it on Reddit, yeah, and I was like,
huh.
And it was a guy that I thinkhad been through the sleep coach
school.
Yeah, and he was like, hey, likethis is what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
And you definitely recognize some things and you're
like, huh.
And then I remember, so like Ikind of noted, took a picture of
that screenshot of that, and I'mlike, all right, I'll look into
that later.
And then I remember seeingsomething, I forget how, like,
it was through my Googlesearching, and it's it was this
guy, and it was like it's thisblog of some random guy, and
he's like, Your sleep issuesaren't because of that cup of
(15:10):
coffee you had, your sleepissues isn't because you watch
TV too late, your sleep issueisn't because of this, your
sleep issue isn't because ofthat, your sleep issue is
because you're anxious aboutsleep.
And I was like, that kind ofjives, and so I ended up joining
the sleep coach school, and Iwas like, okay, cool.
And it it it sounded so weird.
Like, like, what do you mean,like hyper arousal?
(15:32):
And what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
Like, what I was wondering if it like for you, if
it if it resonated right away,or were you a little bit
skeptical, or was it like, no,this makes total sense?
Or definitely a littleskeptical, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
You know, because you're like, what are you
talking about?
Like, I have to unlearn beingafraid of it, just didn't make
sense to my analytical brain,you know.
And then of course, I do thewrong thing and watch as many
videos, like limit the unlockeverything unlocks every week,
but I just watch the video asfast as I can.
Like thinking the watching thevideo, that's gonna fix
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
And doing that, and then then would be in their uh
Slack in their Slack channel,but kind of being standoffish at
first, because you're not likeuh okay, we'll we'll see, and
not believe in it, and goingthrough that and talking to
people, and you're like, wow,and you just see while we are
all uh, you know, insomnia isyou know what is this saying?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Like you're unique, but you're insomnia.
Insomnia isn't, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
And you see kind of the same thing across the board,
and there's subtle differenceslike what triggers people, what
doesn't, like you know, whateach people I feel like we all
have a thing we fixate on.
Yep, and I was like, that's kindof interesting.
That's interesting, all right,all right.
And it started to make moresense, yeah.
And my sleep incrementally gotbetter.
(16:57):
And I was like, oh, well, thereyou go.
That's a bonus.
Like, yeah, things aren't goodnecessarily great, but things
are slightly better.
Yeah, all right, like progress.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Yeah, yeah, it's always nice when you can get
that little bit of of evidence.
And you know, I think this isthe good part about community,
is that when you read otherpeople's experience and you
really see yourself in it, andyou're like, wait a minute, like
it isn't just me, you know, andI'm not completely alone in
this.
And there are actually a lot ofother people that, you know,
(17:29):
have very, very similartrajectory with insomnia, that
can be a really good part ofcommunity.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yeah, then suddenly for me, even those people were
all over the United States, allover the globe basically, I
didn't feel so alone.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
And sometimes just going on and posting like what
you're experiencing, just havinga place to talk about it, and
people listen and empathize withyou, yeah, let alone like
offering up like advice and youknow, hey, look at this.
It just it felt better.
So like I stopped feeling asyeah, as isolated as I had felt,
(18:07):
you know, in the worst ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
And you know, it was a great feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Yeah, it is.
And you know, it one of thethings I love about the
mentorship is just having peoplein all different stages of the
recovery process because youknow, people that are further
down the road can share theirperspective from where they are
at.
And it also is helpful to seepeople newer coming in because
you can see the previous versionof yourself in in.
(18:34):
And it's you know, that alsohelps you uh further along.
So that's great.
And then how did you find me?
Was it just through Sleep CoachSchool?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
I think I've seen you seen something about you on
there, and then you startedpopping into my Instagram feed,
and I was like, oh, interesting,okay.
And I started following you onInstagram and I was like, oh, I
want to check out her podcast.
Yeah.
And I started like at episodeone and talked about like where
it all started from you.
And I don't know, it's just avery calming vibe I got from
listening to your podcast.
Yeah.
(19:02):
And like I definitely like I gotall the material from the sleep
coach school, but I definitely Ifeel like I rushed through it to
like how fast can I consume thiscontent and fix myself?
And you know, like trying to getfrom point A to point B as fast
as possible and be done withthis whole thing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
And then I remember like reaching out to you on
Instagram, you're like, hey,shoot me an email and kind of
asking about your mentorship.
And I remember one thing waslike, and I'm reading your blog,
and the thing that fascinated mewas the neuroplasticity.
And you're like, oh, like,because you basically you find
that you've forged thesepathways in your brain, and
(19:40):
that's why it's acting the wayit is, but you can also change
it.
Yes.
You know, and that reallyinterests me.
And at the same time, uh, abuddy buddy of mine who was in
the military, like he was inrecovery programs for
post-traumatics, a bunch ofdifferent things, and he too was
talking about like the programhe was in was a lot of
neuroplasticity.
And so I'm like, there'ssomething to this.
(20:01):
So I remember he kind ofemailing you and asking you
about what the mentorship waslike, and you kind of telling
me, and I was like, okay, cool,like I'm gonna do this because
this this is what I've beenlooking for.
Like, this is the good vibes toit.
And I'm and I remember saying,I'm like, I want to be active as
much as I can.
Yeah, um, I want to learn asmuch as I can, but not try to
(20:22):
rush through it and just kind oflike as much as you can with
insomnia.
Enjoy the ride.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
And you know, I mean, like Isaid, you kind of came in with
the education, but like beingable, oh, and I wanted, yeah, I
wanted to bring that up in ourpodcast because I remember you
talking about your process andhow you went through the
mentorship.
And yes, the neuroplasticityaspect to this I find to be such
(20:47):
a hopeful angle, you know, andit hasn't even really this the
science of neuroplasticityreally hasn't even been around
around that long, you know.
I think it was just in the 50s.
We just still thought, you know,your brain was just fixed and
you had what you had and youcouldn't change or unlearn
anything, and which reallydoesn't make any sense because
no, makes zero sense.
I mean, how did we even reallythink that?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
You know, so yeah, it was definitely, you know, my
whole world, my thesis was allabout that for a couple of
years, and I lived in that, andI just I still to this day feel
like there's a a feeling in mybody that I get when I think
about this aspect of beinghuman.
So I'm I'm so glad thatresonated.
And okay, so you're you're inthe mentorship and you're taking
(21:33):
your time this time, and you'reactually even enjoying the
process a little bit.
Gasp, you know.
Right.
What can you share with us aboutyour recovery journey?
Which of course is, you know,almost always very up and down
for everyone.
But what were some of thestruggles that you had and some
of the understandings that maybehelped you through them?
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Big struggle I had was being kind to yourself.
You know, self-kindness was justtough after having like a rough
night of sleep, not being like,because of my, you know, I think
most of us, it's so similar,like these over-analytical
brains, which in many aspects ofyour life are so beneficial to
us, yeah, but in dealing withinsomnia are your worst enemy.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
Because you just could not stop thinking about
sleep.
And so for me, it was justpracticing like being kind to
myself and then having patienceand understanding like this was
gonna be a bumpy road.
It is not a linear progression.
I start here and I end here, andit's gonna take this many
months, and I'll be cured.
(22:39):
Yeah.
So just like for me, I wouldjust try to, I don't know, like
make baby steps each day.
You know, try to get, and youcan't even say try to get,
because I feel like when youstart saying I'm gonna try to do
this, I'm gonna do that.
Like, and the the wild thing islike dealing with insomnia is
like it's the opposite.
It's just kind of letting it be,and that's what fixes it, not
forcing like I'm gonna be betterat sleeping.
(22:59):
It doesn't work that way.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
Yes, well said.
That's a very, very key thingthat you just mentioned right
there.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
And but it's trying to be uh more accepting, I
guess, yeah, each day of where Iwas at.
And you know, and it was what Iremember taking a step back at
one point in like March andlooking back, I'm like, wow,
like I've still got a ways togo, but look how far I've come.
Like in just kind of beingcognizant of law.
SPEAKER_01 (23:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, the the processis so interesting because it it
sneaks up on you, you know.
I mean, so often I'm workingwith people and they they're
like, oh, I'm not gettingbetter.
I'm still, you know.
But then I'll do just what youyou said is think back, you
know, think back to six monthsago or a year ago, and that's
how they can see how how farthey've come.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Yeah, and that's you just gotta look at that.
And it's so hard just to take itone day at a time, though,
because you because all you wantis just to sleep well and feel
better and not be anxious,especially those those early
days where I mean I would be,I'd get up in the morning and
shower to go to work feelinglike I hadn't slept at all.
When in reality you had, youknow, I had I know I had slept
(24:08):
at least a little bit, but I'dbe shaking in the shower just
from the anxiety of everything.
And it was it was a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (24:15):
Yeah.
And how like how did recoverystart showing up first for you
then?
Do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Would you say for me, like one of the big things
was that last year we went totraining and I didn't know how I
was gonna make it through thistraining at work, and I did, and
I was like, okay, cool, so I cando this, like, all right, and
then just I remember what was soconfusing to me is like there'd
be nights where I slept well,I'd wake up feeling anxious, but
then there'd be nights where Ididn't sleep well, and I would
(24:44):
wake up feeling calm, and I'mlike, uh.
So it's not all tied to how wellI do sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
And then I think too like learning how resilient you
are, yeah, and how you canfunction and sometimes even
thrive despite lack of sleep.
unknown (25:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
And it's not fun and it's not easy, but you can still
do it and be like, okay, like Ican handle this.
It sucks and it's awful.
And then, you know, there's somedays where you have you hit by a
pretty gnarly speed bumper ifyou and you feel like you're
back at square one, butrealizing like no, you you're
not back at square one, it justkind of feels that way.
SPEAKER_01 (25:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I think your brain will justtell you that automatically.
You just almost have to assumeit's just gonna, it's just gonna
come, you know, say all thosethings, and that's that's really
pretty normal.
Pretty normal.
Yeah.
And did you notice like yourreactions starting to change if
you did have a bad night, youknow, less freak out mode,
(25:46):
maybe?
SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Yes, absolutely.
And like one thing I started todo, like, so I started, you
know, I remember finally at somepoint, like well, I think I was
in that training, and I was thefirst night we got there, we
were in Arkansas for training,didn't sleep well at all.
Yeah, and I remember I was withmy two co-workers and like we're
gonna get coffee.
And at that point, I wouldcoffee was so taboo, oh, it'd
make me not sleep.
And I'm like, I'm just gonnahave a coffee.
(26:08):
And I just remember it kind oflike almost a calming effect.
And so finally I was like, Yeah,I'm just gonna live my life.
And like, this sucks, yeah, butI'm gonna live my life in, you
know, like if I had a badnight's sleep, like, hey, maybe
I'll get an extra shot ofespresso in there, like and
really help myself out.
And it was so funny because likethose nights or those days where
(26:28):
I'd have extra caffeine or drinktoo much caffeine because I just
didn't care.
I was like, whatever, it's gonnawhatever's gonna happen is gonna
happen.
And then wow, you you end upsleeping pretty well that night,
and you're like, oh, this is soweird.
SPEAKER_01 (26:41):
I love that about your coffee, is life's too short
to give up the coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Oh, 100%.
That was like one of the worstmistakes I made was not drinking
coffee for months.
I know you're already suffering.
I wouldn't do this to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
I know, and it really has nothing to do with
the coffee, you know, and you'realready you're already
suffering, and then to take awayyour coffee is just brutal.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Yeah.
And I just remember too, like itwas the coffee, and then
realizing that I could watch TVin bed and it wouldn't give me
insomnia.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
And once I kind of doing that and living basically
living your life again, as hardas it is, yeah, it's you know,
step by step, day by day.
For me, the sleep improvedfirst.
So then I was left with a lot ofanxiety.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
And it was a mix of anxiety.
I think I, you know, like Isaid, I'm glad I went to therapy
for anxiety, but a lot of it wasanxiety related to sleep.
And then slowly that started todissipate.
You know, I wouldn't be asanxious, or I would, you know, I
could kind of calm down beforebed.
(27:45):
And I was like, huh.
And you know, slow but slowlythinking less about sleep.
So I mean it, I'm sure it wasthe same for you, just day after
day, just all consuming, like,you know, yeah at work, you
know, something would be fine.
And then I would think, oh mygod, how am I gonna sleep
tonight?
Well, if I don't sleep welltonight, how am I gonna sleep
tomorrow?
I'm on call tomorrow, so I gottasleep well tonight.
(28:06):
And just it was crazy, like howmuch it can occupy your brain.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
It consumed my whole life.
I mean, it was just every singlethought or decision or
everything I did in life was putthrough that filter of, but how
is this gonna affect my sleep?
You know, and now it's like Idon't, I just don't ever think
that anymore.
And I think that is moremeaningful to me than better
sleep, to be honest.
(28:30):
Yes, you know, being free ofthat.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah, yeah, the free of the worry.
Because you just and whateverhappens, happens.
And I think you know, one thingthat you and Richard that's
great is like some nights,sometimes a bad night's sleep is
just a bad night's sleep.
Yeah.
Like you're and I and I thinkback like you know, before,
especially like when I hadsomething stressful going on the
next day, like, yeah, I wouldsleep terribly, waking up all
(28:54):
the time, you know, tossing andturning, but like then you know,
through insomnia, you just getso hyper focused on that.
And the more you focus on it,the worse you make it.
And it's such a weird thing thatyou just have to sit there and
not be at peace, but just sitthere with your insomnia and
your anxiety, you know, in themiddle of the night and tell
(29:15):
your like tell yourself I'mokay.
Yeah, I'm safe.
When I and that's the one thingwith this, like I had never
talked to myself before, atleast externally.
I talked to myself on theinside, but like I'd sit there
in bed and be like, you're gonnabe fine.
Yeah, you're okay, you're safe,and just reassure myself.
And weirdly enough, you do itenough times and it starts to
(29:38):
work.
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yeah, your brain starts believing you.
It's like, okay, maybe there,maybe he really is okay.
Yeah, maybe there's somethinglike that.
Maybe I can let down the guardnow.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah, and it's just such a and I remember like you
know, listen to your podcast andyou just think about it.
Yeah, like if for as evolved aswe are, our brain is still an
animal brain.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yeah, something has triggered the alarm and you're
brain can't stop focusing on itbecause it's so, you know,
worried by this thing and putsyour puts you in guard mode and
that's why you can't sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
Yes.
I mean we are consciously somuch further ahead than the
unconscious, you know, lizardbrain in this process.
And you know, I always think youalmost have to take the
unconscious mind by the hand,like it's a small child, and
just show it over and over thateverything is okay.
And really realize yourselflike, okay, this doesn't feel
okay, but I actually lookingaround, I I actually am okay.
(30:31):
And work and just working withwith your brain on it and it it
will eventually get on board.
It just takes time and andrepetition and a lot of
patience.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
A lot of yeah a lot of patience.
And for me it was interestingbecause my insomnia would like
morph into different things.
So it originally started withthe snoring and and you know not
being able to fall asleep.
SPEAKER_02 (30:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
And then you kind of forget it kind of forgets about
that.
And it's like what if I do thisto him and then you get all
anxious about that.
Yep.
And then you kind of relax aboutthat.
And then it's like what if I trythat like there's a period of
time like so I've always beenafraid of heights never a big
fan and I started having likethese dreams about like you know
(31:13):
being on super high things orpotentially falling off and like
I'd wake up and I'd be sofreaked out and I couldn't fall
back asleep.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
And I'm like what is happening well that's really
that's a very interesting likethat is your mind trying to get
your attention isn't thatfascinating.
SPEAKER_00 (31:30):
Yeah.
It was wild.
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
And then I remember listening on your podcast and
you're saying isn't thatinteresting?
SPEAKER_02 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
And so now I'm like isn't that interesting that my
brain is now doing this to me.
Yeah.
And it's just I feel like it'sbasically like unpacking all the
things with sleep that you'reafraid of and showing your brain
that you're okay with all thesethings like okay I'm okay with
snoring myself awake.
I'm okay with sitting in the bedand nodding off a bunch of times
(31:59):
but not falling into true sleep.
Yeah I'm okay sitting here notsleeping at all tonight.
I'm okay with waking up at threein the morning and not falling
back asleep.
unknown (32:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Just having to come to grips, having to talk to
yourself and be like it's gonnabe okay.
Like no matter what the nightthrows at me, my brain throws at
me, I'll be okay and I'll besafe.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Yeah.
Yeah and that is how we show ourbrain and it is a you know
acceptance is probably thesecret weapon in all of this and
and and just understanding whatis actually happening and that
it is just a conditioned arousaland and a fear in the mind and
we can develop fears about somany things in life.
And for us it just happened tobe around not sleeping.
(32:40):
And you know just going back alittle bit I wanted to to
mention how, you know, for youit's in progress started showing
up in sleep first, but it can bethe opposite.
So where you still had anxietyshowing up but sleep was better
sometimes the anxiety gets lessor the fear comes down but sleep
kind of you know comes later.
(33:01):
But what I think is is so greatabout what you shared is that it
shows you that anxiety andhyperarousal doesn't have to be
gone in order to sleep.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Oh 100% and I think one of my big one of my big
nights with that was I it beensuper stressful at work and I
was really anxious and you knowI'm coming home from work late
and I'm just all spun up with abunch of things and I'm like
there is no way I'm gonna sleeptonight.
Yeah.
Like I was kind of okay.
I'm like it just is what it islike it's gonna be a resting
(33:34):
yeah and I you know get homekick off my shoes grab a shower
real quick hop into bed turn theTV on just anticipating like I'm
gonna be up all night or and Idon't even I don't even think I
got through like the credits ofwhatever show I was watching.
Yeah and the next thing I knowmy alarm's going off and I'm
like what just happened I waslike and it's crazy yeah because
as anxious as I was I was stillable to sleep.
(33:57):
Right.
But then I would haveoccasionally I'd have the
opposite be true like I'd getinto bed and like oh what a
great day and just so relaxedand chilled out then I'd kind of
nod off and my brain would startscanning and I'm like oh cool I
don't feel anxious but it'sgonna be one of those nights and
it that's just a weirdfrustrating thing dealing like
your brain like you don't feelas anxious but your brain is
(34:20):
still in the back you know it'sstill slightly on hyper alert
mode and it's like oh I don'tknow if it's quite safe to let
you sleep yet.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
Yeah.
You know it's almost like you Ithink the isn't that interesting
approach was so helpful for mebecause it it just took me out
of because there isn't a lot ofrhyme or reason in all of this.
You know it is just very kind ofmessy and all over the map and
that's pretty standard.
But trying to even like pin itto what you did or didn't do or
(34:49):
find the pattern or find thething and it's sort of like
giving up all of that is therecovery process.
It's just kind of just likemaybe I do maybe I don't you
know and just and giving up onall all of the trying to figure
it out and that's what takes usout of the you know out of the
fight out of the struggle out ofthe figuring it out mode
(35:10):
basically and it's so hardbecause like that's what my
whole life has been exactlythat's what makes you so good at
your job.
Yeah exactly I know yeah I knowI I hear you I hear you and I
was gonna ask too before Iforget when I did a post way
back it's been a while about thebest way to use the mentorship
(35:32):
and you know as always you sogenerously chimed in and talked
about how you moved through it.
And you know since you talkedabout that I've been so curious
to hear how people use thementorship and use the resources
because there's you know there'sreally no right way and everyone
takes different things from theprogram.
But what was your process andand did it change at all over
(35:54):
over time?
SPEAKER_00 (35:55):
Yes it did.
So like I said when I first dida sleep coach school was you
know learn this watch thesevideos as fast as possible.
Yeah this will fix my anxiety.
And then when I joined thementorship I was like I really
want to absorb this so I limitmyself I would only watch one
video a day.
I would allow myself to watch itas many times as I wanted to
(36:16):
kind of like let it sink insometimes I would just sit there
and play it a couple times andthen you know I would go on to
the mentorship and askquestions.
And then what I would do like soevery night I try to walk I find
like it just is it's just goodfor me.
Like it's not going to make mesleep I learned that like it
will not make me sleep.
It won't take away my anxietybut it's just something I'd like
(36:38):
to do and just kind of like helpnot even wind down but just a
good ending to my day.
And the first part of my walkswould always be I'd listen to
one episode of your podcast.
And I was like I'm gonna startat the beginning and then you
know go all the way up topresent.
And then there would be certainepisodes that would really kind
of resonate with me and I wouldmark those down and like and
(36:59):
it's very weird like I would doit like if I had a rough day I'd
be like all right I'm gonna goon my walk and I'd listen to one
of your podcasts and it you knowafter a while I felt like it was
kind of like okay like this isall part of the process.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
You know like this is all part of the process.
It's not fun.
It's not necessarily short it'snot linear but this is where
we're at and just kind of likelisten to you talk and go over
different parts or even likesometimes I would be like okay
this is what I'm experiencingright now.
I'm gonna speed bump.
So I'd try to find speed bumpepisodes yeah and listen to that
(37:32):
and be like okay I can't try toget out of this because that's
not how this works.
I have to be okay with being inthis and then eventually it'll
kind of you know work throughit.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
And and now here you are on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (37:45):
So you've got full circle I love yeah I never
thought that I'd be here andthen one thing I kind of
promised myself was if I couldever get through this I would be
as helpful to other people aspossible because we talked about
earlier man is it lonely.
Yes and you know you see thepeople that just join up and you
see what they're going throughand you think back to those days
(38:05):
and it's just it's brutal andI'm lucky that you know I'm not
not I'm not married don't havekids so all I had to worry about
is myself.
So people that are you knowworrying about their families
and their kids and all thisstuff I'm like man I just had to
worry about myself through thisand that was all that was a mess
unto itself let alone having toraise kids be uh be in a
partnership like oof that's alot so I just want to be there
(38:28):
for people and kind of be likehey man like there is hope like
it's not going to be as quick asyou want it to be but there is
hope.
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Yes and you have been so generous in the
community and you know you'rekind of one of those people that
gets out of the fire and goesback to help and it's just been
such a wonderful thing to towatch as a coach.
And so how is life now?
You know I I I remember when wetalked that you said you love
your weekends and I I loved howmuch you love your weekends.
(38:58):
Yeah but you know anything elsethat you want to share about how
life is now in general?
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Life is pretty good.
Work is stressful.
I think that's just gonna be parfor the course working at the
police department.
My weekends are great.
This it's wild like how muchthis helped me in several
aspects of my life like learningjust to be okay with things like
in sitting with things is likeyou know a part of this too was
tied to anxiety and learninglike hey I'm just gonna I
(39:27):
remember talking to my uhpsychiatrist and he's like Rick
I hate to tell you but you'regonna be anxious in your life
like it's a human emotion.
You can't make that go away yeahyou just have to accept it and
you know he was like the harderyou push it away the more it's
gonna stick around yeah andyou're like oh and it's
(39:48):
interesting like uh your latestepisode about like insomnia
coming back yeah and necessarilyfor me it's not you know
sometimes it you know I'll havea rough night's sleep but
sometimes it's it it's weirdlike hearing a song or like
seeing something that reminds meof when I was in the worst part
of it and like you can feelthose emotions come like rushing
(40:09):
back and like sometimes my hairwill you know my hair on my arms
will stand up and I'll or getcold sweats for a minute because
you just think back on like yourtough tough struggles and you
kind of have to talk to yourbrain like hey but that's where
you see like those neuralpathways that are formed like
this makes you think of thistime which makes which just you
know heightens that you knowthat stress and that anxiety
(40:30):
like holy moly and you reallytruly realize how strong your
brain can be yeah and that mighthappen for a while and I think
you know there is a a bit of awhen you come out of something
like this it it's processingsome grief.
SPEAKER_01 (40:45):
You know it's processing like what you went
through.
And you know that can that cantake some time.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
I just remember thinking like you know through a
lot of this like you startidentifying yourself as someone
with some insomnia and you knowlike it can become your identity
and it's you know and like wetalked about like you literally
focus your whole days on it andit shouldn't be that way like
you you know that's the that'swhat just makes it worse and you
(41:12):
kind of just have to like let itrun its course and it can be so
so hard but slowly slowly itgoes away slowly you find
yourself thinking about it lessand less yeah and you know it'll
come back every once in a whileand you think about it and you
know you feel those the heebiejeebies as I call them and
you're like oh man.
Yeah and then even that'll butyou have to be okay with feeling
(41:35):
those emotions and you know Ijust try to focus focus on
showing myself hey you you'reokay like and it's okay to feel
anxious about thinking aboutinsomnia you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah it doesn't mean that anything has gone wrong.
In fact it's a part of thehealing you know it's a part of
the process.
SPEAKER_00 (41:52):
Yeah yeah and so yeah it's it's pretty good like
I don't know like I and then onething too is like learning not
to go in back to like thinkingtoo much like what was my sleep
like like I on my CPAP that Ihave it will track how much oh
yeah you know how long I had iton for and this that I don't
ever look at any of that stuff.
Yeah on purpose because I don'twant to go you know back down
(42:16):
you know like I still practicefor the most part the timeless
method like I try to not checkmy phone after 10 o'clock.
Yep.
Um it's weird though like it'sso funny for me because
everyone's different like if Ican if I fall asleep I can now
wake up in the middle of thenight and I can look at my clock
and be like how much time do Ihave left yeah and be okay and
(42:36):
then and then like I'll put onif I'm and then if I'm kind of
struggling a bit I'll put on aTV show and you know don't even
often make it through the firstepisode and then before I know
it my alarm's going off again.
So I think it's a lot ofprogress there.
And then also too I don't knowI'm now 44 years old and I
talked to a lot of my buddiesabout this stuff because it's
interesting to see like otherpeople that have sleep struggle
(42:59):
sleep issues you know because weall do but they don't let it it
doesn't for them it doesn't turninto insomnia.
Yeah they'll just be like oh manlately I've just been sleeping
really terribly and like butthey're not worried about it.
And you're like oh well it'sgood that you don't worry about
it because that's a whole nothera whole nother thing.
And just knowing like as I'vegotten older like my sleep isn't
going to be the same now as whenI was you know 20 years old.
(43:22):
Like I'm you know like just I'vechanged my you know I'm up way
earlier now than I was when Iwas younger.
So I'm never gonna be able tosleep until 11 o'clock again.
And that's okay.
Like as long as I can get somegood sleep you know anytime I
get I get really weary anytime Isee like oh do these hacks to
improve your sleep and I'm likeoh boy no thank you and people
(43:44):
really harping on getting eightplus hours and it's like no
that's that's not how thatworks.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
No, I know that myth has caused so many problems.
It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
You know and no one even knows where the eight hours
came from you know it's justgonna kind of pulled out of thin
air yeah and I'll sleep like Iprobably sleep between each
night six and around sevenhours.
Yeah and I feel better now thanpre-insomnia when I was sleeping
eight nine ten hours.
I think so like just kind ofpeace of mind the CPAP I'm sure
(44:19):
helps and just not stressingabout it like most days I wake
up and there's that initial likemy alarm goes off at five every
morning and I'm like but by thetime I'm out of the shower I'm
like all right let me get mycoffee in and let's get after
it.
I'm feeling pretty good by then.
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yeah yeah I often joke you know I'm so indifferent
to sleep now that I I I wonderlike do I need to think about it
a little bit more because youknow because I just don't you
know I don't know I'm likealmost like have I fallen have I
gone to the sleep optimizationcategory of people?
Like I actually have become oneof those people that needs to
(44:54):
optimize my sleep I don't knowbut I'm just I'm so I'm so happy
for you Rick and you know lastquestion and it it's a bit
different than the silverlighting question that I usually
ask because you have been sogenerous of spirit what would
you say to someone with insomniawho is you know still on the
climb what would you like themto know?
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Keep hope it's gonna get better.
Keep hope and it's so tough inthose dark hours of the morning
it is so hard.
Like I would just sit there andcry or want to cry sometimes but
like keep hope and it will bebetter and just trust in the
process too I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Yeah trust in the process because it will get you
where you need to go and yeahthat would be that would be my
advice to people amazing I lovethat I can thank you enough for
sharing and just honest being sohonest about your experience and
and like I said I'm so happy foryou and I am truly grateful that
I I had the chance to to workwith you.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Yeah it's been awesome like I will this is
probably one of the most lifechanging things in my life yeah
and it's pretty cool to come upthe other side because it has an
application kind of across theboard in your life to just kind
of learn to deal with superstressful and uncomfortable
things.
And I feel like my threshold fordealing with things through
insomnia which I think was thewas awful like is massively
(46:16):
improved and it's made me betteras a person.
So that's kind of cool.
That's a cool little sidebenefit but yeah thank you so
much and just being for justbeing there for people and
teaching us this it's so wild tome that like all these sleep
doctors like this is so not ontheir radar and I don't
understand how.
SPEAKER_01 (46:34):
I know and someday we'll get to to so look back
we'll we'll say well we were atthe leading edge of all of this
we knew how way back when we gotforefront right yeah exactly so
well said and for all of you outthere listening thanks a lot for
being with us and we will seeyou next time on the Mind Body
Sleep podcast.
Bye Rick bye have a good one youtoo thank you thanks for being
(47:01):
here today if you love what youheard on today's episode don't
forget to hit the like buttonand subscribe to the podcast and
if you need more support withyour sleep join me in the mind
body sleep mentorship this threemonth one-on-one program will
transform your relationship withsleep so you can get back to
living the life that you lovefree from the fear of not
sleeping head on over tobethkendle.com for more details
(47:24):
I'll see you next time
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the podcast.
Today I am so glad to be doinganother hope story because these
(00:29):
are definitely the most listenedto podcast episodes, and it's
always such an honor to be ableto sit down with someone that
I've had the opportunity to workwith and talk about them and
their story.
So today, Rick is joining us.
A big hello and welcome to you,Rick.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Hello.
Thank you for having me on.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Well, thanks so much for coming on because I know
you've already had a fullworkday today and you're you're
probably starving because youdidn't have a lot of time
between getting home and andhopping on the call.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
No, yeah, I didn't eat lunch today, but that's kind
of normal at work.
So I'll usually eat dinneraround like 5:30 and then yeah,
and then hang out until I go tobed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
Okay, well, perfect.
Okay, so let's just start kindof how I always start, if you
wouldn't mind, just taking usback and telling us a little bit
about how insomnia started foryou and what that was like.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I remember it started uh end ofApril, early uh May of last
year.
I got sick.
Yeah.
Just like a normal, your averagehead cold.
And I remember like one night,you know, and whenever I was
sick, what I would do back inthe day was just take a ton of
NyQuil and just pass out.
And I remember like I wouldsleep great.
And I remember for whateverreason that night, I kept waking
(01:54):
up, it kept waking up, and itwas like I was snoring myself
awake.
I'm like, this is weird.
Like, okay, what's going onhere?
And it kept waking up, felt likeI didn't get any sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Go to the doctor, and you know, she's like, hey,
like, your blood pressure is alittle high.
And so then that's one morething building on the on the
anxiety.
I'm like, oh, that's weird,okay.
And I remember like went homethat night, got some good sleep,
and then went back to work.
And remember it was a Friday,and I got home from work, or got
home from hanging out with mybuddies that Friday, and same
(02:27):
thing.
I kept like now it's morepronounced.
Like I kept every 10 minutes itfelt like snore myself awake.
And like I remember it was likeat some point four in the
morning, and I think I had whatwas like a panic attack.
I'd never I've always been kindof you know an anxious person,
or what am I calling?
My mom called me a worry wart.
But I remember legit having likea feeling I was gonna throw up
(02:50):
and I'm like sweating and justfreaking out.
I'm like, why can't I fallasleep?
Like, what is happening here?
Like, what is going on?
So freaked out, ended up callingmy mom at like 6 30.
She's like, hey, what's goingon?
I kind of told her whathappened, and she's like, okay,
well, like, how are you feelingnow?
I'm like better, but still kindof like that was really weird.
(03:12):
And she's like, Well, hey, like,take it easy today, kind of
relax if you can, and just seewhat happens tonight.
You know, maybe it's the coldaffecting you.
I'm like, okay.
So then that night I passed outpretty hard.
I was like, okay, cool, I'mcured, we're good to go here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
And then the next day, it just stuck in my brain,
I remember.
And I was just kind of on edgeall day.
And then sure enough, that nightwe got ready to go to bed, and
it felt like I didn't sleep allnight.
And then I was like, oh man,that's that was uh Sunday going
into Monday.
So I go into work Monday justlike a zombie.
(03:48):
My boss's like, you alright?
I'm like, yeah, I couldn't sleeplast night.
And so then it's even more mybrain, and then I go home that
night.
Don't sleep that night.
I'm like, what is happening?
Like this is this is insane.
And then I think the next couplenights slept, I think, because
my body was just so tired,slept, and it would just kind of
(04:10):
be that pattern, and then itturned from like the snoring
keeping me awake to I just feltlike I wasn't gonna sleep at
all, and I would just lie thereand just the stress, and I had
sweat, and I'm like, what ishappening?
Like, what is going on here?
Yeah, and it just keeps gettinglike more and more ingrained in
your brain, and then all of asudden, you know, now you're
(04:32):
just I started feeling likeanxious, just anxious like all
the time.
So, first thing, like I feelit's so funny because I feel
like you hear this across theboard.
First thing I do, go to thedoctor.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Like like you do.
You're like, oh my god, yeah.
The doctor, he can they can fixanything.
What is wrong with me?
SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
So I go there and she's like, Yeah, you know, your
blood pressure's a little high,you got this, you got that, but
uh, I'm not gonna really writeyou anything for sleeping, you
know, go.
You should get a sleep studydone.
I'm a bigger guy, so definitelyshe's like, get a sleep study
done, this, that, and the other.
I'm like, okay.
And then it's just persisting.
And there's some nights I'dsleep, but I would wake up and
(05:12):
feel like I didn't sleep at all,even though I'd got you know,
six, seven hours, I would justbe so on edge the next day.
It was miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Yeah.
Let me ask, I can't remember.
Was prior to then this was itwas like early 2024, you said.
Yeah.
So did you was snoring in thepicture at all prior to that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Like I knew I snored, and I'dokay.
I'd snole myself awake from timeto time.
Like, especially if I wassleeping on my back, I'd wake
myself up.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
But like anything, like it wasn't in my brain, I
didn't think of it.
I was just like, okay, and thenjust roll over and I was fine.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
And but now all of a sudden it's warmed itself into
your brain.
And I noticed leading up tothis, I had started to kind of
waking up at you sometimebetween 2:30 and 3.15 in the
morning.
Yeah.
And it's like anything, the moreyou pay attention to it, the
more it kind of sticks around.
Yeah.
And I was like, that's reallyweird.
I need to like try to fix that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Yeah.
So I mean, this is like, okay,so now you're moving into the
medical model, you're going tothe doc the doctor, which of
course we all do.
And then this the whole thingstarts with the sleep studies
and and all of that.
And this is when therelationship with sleep really
starts to change.
Okay, so what happened?
So how did it go after that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
So of course, it takes forever to get a sleep
study.
So finally I get, you know, I goin, I see the doctor, and it's
we're at our institute out herein Scottsdale.
Yeah.
You know, nothing but reallyhigh marks.
So I go in, I talk to thedoctor, and he's like, okay,
we're gonna do a sleep study.
I'm like, but hey, like Iobviously have sleep apnea.
I'm gonna accept that, but like,why can't I fall asleep?
(06:47):
And he's like, well, we'll putyou on a CPAP and you'll fall
asleep.
And I'm like, I don't thinkyou're understanding what I'm
saying here.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
And, you know, to their credit, like, they don't
they don't understand, right?
And they're just there lookingat the medical side of things.
Right.
He's like, no, no, once we getyou your CPAP and your sleep
study, you'll be fine.
I'm like, okay, sure.
All right, hopefully this fixesit.
Yeah.
So they'd give me the at-homesleep study.
I take that, give it, yeah, youhave horrible sleep apnea.
(07:15):
Here you go, here's your newCPAP and your mask, which you
know, I joked, I called it myfighter pilot mask because it
covered my my nose and my mouth.
Yeah.
And so, like, now on top ofsomebody who already can't
sleep, you're gonna add this tothe mix.
And if I move the wrong way, itbreaks the seal and it's leaking
air and just miserable.
(07:37):
And I remember like at thistime, like we always have you
know, family vacation on the 4thof July at my parents' house,
and I go out there, and my youknow, my mom's like I feel my
mom's like, what is wrong withyou?
And I'm telling her this, andyou know, she's like, Well, you
can you just try to relax?
No, I can't try to relax.
Like, yeah, all I can thinkabout is how I can't sleep, and
(08:00):
it just makes everything worse.
And it was weird for me becauseI just remember being at work
was almost a reprieve because Iwould be distracted there, but
on the drive home, I'd startgetting the feeling the pit of
my stomach and just gettingworked up and like what had once
been my like sanctuary of youknow, chill at my house was now
(08:21):
like felt like a prison.
And then, you know, I'd sit onmy couch, you know, barely eat
dinner because I was just soracked with anxiety.
Yeah, and then as it got darkand then closer to bedtime, the
anxiety would get worse.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
And I'd get in my bed and I would just start the
cold sweats, and I would belike, Well, maybe I'll sleep
tonight.
Maybe I won't.
And it was absolutely miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
So you knew it wasn't sleep apnea.
What did you think was going onat this time?
Or was that part of what was soscary?
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Is that so that was the scariest part?
So then at that time, like atwork, I'm starting to struggle.
And I have my two bosses, uh Lexand Kedra, are fantastic.
I love working for them.
So they're trying to get me helpthrough the through the police
department and great supportstructure.
So I'm talking to them and theylook at my past and they're
like, oh my God, like you know,you have some mild
(09:16):
post-traumatic stress you have,you probably have anxiety, this,
that.
So I get into therapy, starttalking to a therapist, then she
sends me to uh a psychiatrist,he evaluates me, and he's like,
you know, everyone says, like,yeah, you probably had looks
like you have some generalizedanxiety, uh, maybe a little
(09:36):
post-traumatic stress in there.
And I'm like, okay, like thatmakes sense.
And they're like, you're notsleeping because you have
anxiety, which is kind of true.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
But it's you know, it's anxiety.
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
Not the full picture, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yeah, not the full picture.
So I'm like, okay, well, I justI just have to get rid of this
anxiety.
So I'm determined and I'mmeditating every day, and I'm
doing going on walks, and I'mdoing this, because in my mind,
if I get rid of this anxiety andpush it out the door, my sleep
will come right back.
And it, as we all know, does notwork that way.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
And then I would do the worst thing too, like
horrible.
Like I'd be googling everything,going on Reddit, uh, like right
out of the gate.
I cut out coffee, I cut outthis, I cut out that, I took
this supplement, I didn't takethat vitamin and going down that
rabbit hole.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Oh, yeah, that's that's all of us, you know.
It's kind of like thelow-hanging fruit, you know,
it's kind of what you heareverywhere, and it's, you know,
and then it and then when thatdoesn't really help, you're
really nervous and scared andwondering, probably really
wondering what in the hell isgoing on.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Yeah, because my entire life, I was always a
light sleeper.
I'd wake up really easily, but agreat sleeper.
Like I could fall asleep at thedrop of a hat.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
And if I wanted to, I mean, I could sleep until, you
know, 10, 11, sometimes noon,depending on how tired I was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
So to all of a sudden have it, like I couldn't
fall asleep.
Like everyone says, like I feltlike my brain was broken.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
Yep.
Yeah.
And you know what, Rick?
That's not unusual for it tocome on like that, you know,
where somebody just never has anexperience like that.
And it can be just a singlesleepless night, you know, and
it's so understandable.
So by now it's probably whatsummertime?
And you're seeing yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
Yeah, we were in late August.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Okay.
Wow.
So you're going all summer withthis.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
And then just on top of that, the heat out here in
Arizona just makes everythingeven more unbearable.
So I'm just uh hot, anxious,sweaty mess who hasn't slept at
all.
SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
And just super fun.
Super fun.
It's a good times.
Yeah.
And then you start doing thething that I find typical for a
lot of people is you stop goingout with your friends, you stop
doing stuff because you just youread everything, and it's this
is a stimulus, and that's astimulus, and that's going to
keep you awake, and this isgonna keep you awake.
And you're just like, oh my God,like don't look at your phone,
don't watch TV, don't do this,don't do that.
(12:09):
And you're trying all thesethings, and it's just making
everything worse.
I feel like the only thing Ididn't do was CBTI, because kind
of reading it, I'm like, oh myGod, like you're gonna tell me,
like, how am I supposed to timehow long I've been in bed?
I'm gonna be looking at my clockevery 20 minutes.
Like, there's no way that'sgonna work for me.
(12:30):
So at least I knew that was notgonna be a route for me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Yeah, I'm so glad.
I'm so glad you had that, youknow, inner voice to say you
just even by reading it,recognizing that that wouldn't
be a good fit.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
Yeah, I was like, this is gonna be a disaster if I
do this.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So I remember, you know, there'sso many things that come along
with this experience, andthere's so many ways your life
gets like more and more limited,just like you said, like your
world can get smaller andsmaller because everything kind
of becomes this landmine, youknow.
And I remember when we weretalking and I asked you, you
(13:06):
know, what was the hardest part,and you said it was the
loneliness.
Does that still feel true?
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Oh, absolutely, and that's why like I try to, you
know, hop on the venture shipwhenever I can and talk to
people because I just rememberthat because none of my friends
experience this.
Yeah, none of my family haveexperienced this, and it's just
as you sit there in your bed at2 45 in the morning, just
(13:34):
wrapped with anxiousness andwondering why you can't sleep,
you feel so alone.
Yeah, and it just it sucked.
Like it was awful.
Like it I've been to some someintense things in my life, and I
came out the other side.
I'm like, all right, okay.
But this like brought me to myknees, and I like I remember
talking to my bosses at work,just crying because you don't
(13:56):
know what's wrong with you, andyou seemingly can't fix this,
and it just came so out of theblue, and it was it was brutal.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, I think a lot of peoplelistening will completely relate
to that, and I know I do aswell.
So, what finally brought youinto this approach?
I know that you were at thesleep coach school initially,
and then you found your way tothe mentorship.
So you, you know, you alreadyhad such a a good foundation
(14:26):
coming in.
How did you even find it?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
Was it just of all places Reddit?
Oh, you did?
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Okay, well, there's sometimes Reddit, you know, it's
Reddit to the rescue every oncein a while.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
And I found it on Reddit, yeah, and I was like,
huh.
And it was a guy that I thinkhad been through the sleep coach
school.
Yeah, and he was like, hey, likethis is what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
And you definitely recognize some things and you're
like, huh.
And then I remember, so like Ikind of noted, took a picture of
that screenshot of that, and I'mlike, all right, I'll look into
that later.
And then I remember seeingsomething, I forget how, like,
it was through my Googlesearching, and it's it was this
guy, and it was like it's thisblog of some random guy, and
he's like, Your sleep issuesaren't because of that cup of
(15:10):
coffee you had, your sleepissues isn't because you watch
TV too late, your sleep issueisn't because of this, your
sleep issue isn't because ofthat, your sleep issue is
because you're anxious aboutsleep.
And I was like, that kind ofjives, and so I ended up joining
the sleep coach school, and Iwas like, okay, cool.
And it it it sounded so weird.
Like, like, what do you mean,like hyper arousal?
(15:32):
And what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
Like, what I was wondering if it like for you, if
it if it resonated right away,or were you a little bit
skeptical, or was it like, no,this makes total sense?
Or definitely a littleskeptical, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
You know, because you're like, what are you
talking about?
Like, I have to unlearn beingafraid of it, just didn't make
sense to my analytical brain,you know.
And then of course, I do thewrong thing and watch as many
videos, like limit the unlockeverything unlocks every week,
but I just watch the video asfast as I can.
Like thinking the watching thevideo, that's gonna fix
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
And doing that, and then then would be in their uh
Slack in their Slack channel,but kind of being standoffish at
first, because you're not likeuh okay, we'll we'll see, and
not believe in it, and goingthrough that and talking to
people, and you're like, wow,and you just see while we are
all uh, you know, insomnia isyou know what is this saying?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Like you're unique, but you're insomnia.
Insomnia isn't, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
And you see kind of the same thing across the board,
and there's subtle differenceslike what triggers people, what
doesn't, like you know, whateach people I feel like we all
have a thing we fixate on.
Yep, and I was like, that's kindof interesting.
That's interesting, all right,all right.
And it started to make moresense, yeah.
And my sleep incrementally gotbetter.
(16:57):
And I was like, oh, well, thereyou go.
That's a bonus.
Like, yeah, things aren't goodnecessarily great, but things
are slightly better.
Yeah, all right, like progress.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Yeah, yeah, it's always nice when you can get
that little bit of of evidence.
And you know, I think this isthe good part about community,
is that when you read otherpeople's experience and you
really see yourself in it, andyou're like, wait a minute, like
it isn't just me, you know, andI'm not completely alone in
this.
And there are actually a lot ofother people that, you know,
(17:29):
have very, very similartrajectory with insomnia, that
can be a really good part ofcommunity.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yeah, then suddenly for me, even those people were
all over the United States, allover the globe basically, I
didn't feel so alone.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
And sometimes just going on and posting like what
you're experiencing, just havinga place to talk about it, and
people listen and empathize withyou, yeah, let alone like
offering up like advice and youknow, hey, look at this.
It just it felt better.
So like I stopped feeling asyeah, as isolated as I had felt,
(18:07):
you know, in the worst ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
And you know, it was a great feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Yeah, it is.
And you know, it one of thethings I love about the
mentorship is just having peoplein all different stages of the
recovery process because youknow, people that are further
down the road can share theirperspective from where they are
at.
And it also is helpful to seepeople newer coming in because
you can see the previous versionof yourself in in.
(18:34):
And it's you know, that alsohelps you uh further along.
So that's great.
And then how did you find me?
Was it just through Sleep CoachSchool?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
I think I've seen you seen something about you on
there, and then you startedpopping into my Instagram feed,
and I was like, oh, interesting,okay.
And I started following you onInstagram and I was like, oh, I
want to check out her podcast.
Yeah.
And I started like at episodeone and talked about like where
it all started from you.
And I don't know, it's just avery calming vibe I got from
listening to your podcast.
Yeah.
(19:02):
And like I definitely like I gotall the material from the sleep
coach school, but I definitely Ifeel like I rushed through it to
like how fast can I consume thiscontent and fix myself?
And you know, like trying to getfrom point A to point B as fast
as possible and be done withthis whole thing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
And then I remember like reaching out to you on
Instagram, you're like, hey,shoot me an email and kind of
asking about your mentorship.
And I remember one thing waslike, and I'm reading your blog,
and the thing that fascinated mewas the neuroplasticity.
And you're like, oh, like,because you basically you find
that you've forged thesepathways in your brain, and
(19:40):
that's why it's acting the wayit is, but you can also change
it.
Yes.
You know, and that reallyinterests me.
And at the same time, uh, abuddy buddy of mine who was in
the military, like he was inrecovery programs for
post-traumatics, a bunch ofdifferent things, and he too was
talking about like the programhe was in was a lot of
neuroplasticity.
And so I'm like, there'ssomething to this.
(20:01):
So I remember he kind ofemailing you and asking you
about what the mentorship waslike, and you kind of telling
me, and I was like, okay, cool,like I'm gonna do this because
this this is what I've beenlooking for.
Like, this is the good vibes toit.
And I'm and I remember saying,I'm like, I want to be active as
much as I can.
Yeah, um, I want to learn asmuch as I can, but not try to
(20:22):
rush through it and just kind oflike as much as you can with
insomnia.
Enjoy the ride.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
And you know, I mean, like Isaid, you kind of came in with
the education, but like beingable, oh, and I wanted, yeah, I
wanted to bring that up in ourpodcast because I remember you
talking about your process andhow you went through the
mentorship.
And yes, the neuroplasticityaspect to this I find to be such
(20:47):
a hopeful angle, you know, andit hasn't even really this the
science of neuroplasticityreally hasn't even been around
around that long, you know.
I think it was just in the 50s.
We just still thought, you know,your brain was just fixed and
you had what you had and youcouldn't change or unlearn
anything, and which reallydoesn't make any sense because
no, makes zero sense.
I mean, how did we even reallythink that?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
You know, so yeah, it was definitely, you know, my
whole world, my thesis was allabout that for a couple of
years, and I lived in that, andI just I still to this day feel
like there's a a feeling in mybody that I get when I think
about this aspect of beinghuman.
So I'm I'm so glad thatresonated.
And okay, so you're you're inthe mentorship and you're taking
(21:33):
your time this time, and you'reactually even enjoying the
process a little bit.
Gasp, you know.
Right.
What can you share with us aboutyour recovery journey?
Which of course is, you know,almost always very up and down
for everyone.
But what were some of thestruggles that you had and some
of the understandings that maybehelped you through them?
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Big struggle I had was being kind to yourself.
You know, self-kindness was justtough after having like a rough
night of sleep, not being like,because of my, you know, I think
most of us, it's so similar,like these over-analytical
brains, which in many aspects ofyour life are so beneficial to
us, yeah, but in dealing withinsomnia are your worst enemy.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
Because you just could not stop thinking about
sleep.
And so for me, it was justpracticing like being kind to
myself and then having patienceand understanding like this was
gonna be a bumpy road.
It is not a linear progression.
I start here and I end here, andit's gonna take this many
months, and I'll be cured.
(22:39):
Yeah.
So just like for me, I wouldjust try to, I don't know, like
make baby steps each day.
You know, try to get, and youcan't even say try to get,
because I feel like when youstart saying I'm gonna try to do
this, I'm gonna do that.
Like, and the the wild thing islike dealing with insomnia is
like it's the opposite.
It's just kind of letting it be,and that's what fixes it, not
forcing like I'm gonna be betterat sleeping.
(22:59):
It doesn't work that way.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
Yes, well said.
That's a very, very key thingthat you just mentioned right
there.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
And but it's trying to be uh more accepting, I
guess, yeah, each day of where Iwas at.
And you know, and it was what Iremember taking a step back at
one point in like March andlooking back, I'm like, wow,
like I've still got a ways togo, but look how far I've come.
Like in just kind of beingcognizant of law.
SPEAKER_01 (23:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, the the processis so interesting because it it
sneaks up on you, you know.
I mean, so often I'm workingwith people and they they're
like, oh, I'm not gettingbetter.
I'm still, you know.
But then I'll do just what youyou said is think back, you
know, think back to six monthsago or a year ago, and that's
how they can see how how farthey've come.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Yeah, and that's you just gotta look at that.
And it's so hard just to take itone day at a time, though,
because you because all you wantis just to sleep well and feel
better and not be anxious,especially those those early
days where I mean I would be,I'd get up in the morning and
shower to go to work feelinglike I hadn't slept at all.
When in reality you had, youknow, I had I know I had slept
(24:08):
at least a little bit, but I'dbe shaking in the shower just
from the anxiety of everything.
And it was it was a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (24:15):
Yeah.
And how like how did recoverystart showing up first for you
then?
Do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Would you say for me, like one of the big things
was that last year we went totraining and I didn't know how I
was gonna make it through thistraining at work, and I did, and
I was like, okay, cool, so I cando this, like, all right, and
then just I remember what was soconfusing to me is like there'd
be nights where I slept well,I'd wake up feeling anxious, but
then there'd be nights where Ididn't sleep well, and I would
(24:44):
wake up feeling calm, and I'mlike, uh.
So it's not all tied to how wellI do sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
And then I think too like learning how resilient you
are, yeah, and how you canfunction and sometimes even
thrive despite lack of sleep.
unknown (25:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
And it's not fun and it's not easy, but you can still
do it and be like, okay, like Ican handle this.
It sucks and it's awful.
And then, you know, there's somedays where you have you hit by a
pretty gnarly speed bumper ifyou and you feel like you're
back at square one, butrealizing like no, you you're
not back at square one, it justkind of feels that way.
SPEAKER_01 (25:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I think your brain will justtell you that automatically.
You just almost have to assumeit's just gonna, it's just gonna
come, you know, say all thosethings, and that's that's really
pretty normal.
Pretty normal.
Yeah.
And did you notice like yourreactions starting to change if
you did have a bad night, youknow, less freak out mode,
(25:46):
maybe?
SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Yes, absolutely.
And like one thing I started todo, like, so I started, you
know, I remember finally at somepoint, like well, I think I was
in that training, and I was thefirst night we got there, we
were in Arkansas for training,didn't sleep well at all.
Yeah, and I remember I was withmy two co-workers and like we're
gonna get coffee.
And at that point, I wouldcoffee was so taboo, oh, it'd
make me not sleep.
And I'm like, I'm just gonnahave a coffee.
(26:08):
And I just remember it kind oflike almost a calming effect.
And so finally I was like, Yeah,I'm just gonna live my life.
And like, this sucks, yeah, butI'm gonna live my life in, you
know, like if I had a badnight's sleep, like, hey, maybe
I'll get an extra shot ofespresso in there, like and
really help myself out.
And it was so funny because likethose nights or those days where
(26:28):
I'd have extra caffeine or drinktoo much caffeine because I just
didn't care.
I was like, whatever, it's gonnawhatever's gonna happen is gonna
happen.
And then wow, you you end upsleeping pretty well that night,
and you're like, oh, this is soweird.
SPEAKER_01 (26:41):
I love that about your coffee, is life's too short
to give up the coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Oh, 100%.
That was like one of the worstmistakes I made was not drinking
coffee for months.
I know you're already suffering.
I wouldn't do this to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
I know, and it really has nothing to do with
the coffee, you know, and you'realready you're already
suffering, and then to take awayyour coffee is just brutal.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Yeah.
And I just remember too, like itwas the coffee, and then
realizing that I could watch TVin bed and it wouldn't give me
insomnia.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
And once I kind of doing that and living basically
living your life again, as hardas it is, yeah, it's you know,
step by step, day by day.
For me, the sleep improvedfirst.
So then I was left with a lot ofanxiety.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
And it was a mix of anxiety.
I think I, you know, like Isaid, I'm glad I went to therapy
for anxiety, but a lot of it wasanxiety related to sleep.
And then slowly that started todissipate.
You know, I wouldn't be asanxious, or I would, you know, I
could kind of calm down beforebed.
(27:45):
And I was like, huh.
And you know, slow but slowlythinking less about sleep.
So I mean it, I'm sure it wasthe same for you, just day after
day, just all consuming, like,you know, yeah at work, you
know, something would be fine.
And then I would think, oh mygod, how am I gonna sleep
tonight?
Well, if I don't sleep welltonight, how am I gonna sleep
tomorrow?
I'm on call tomorrow, so I gottasleep well tonight.
(28:06):
And just it was crazy, like howmuch it can occupy your brain.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
It consumed my whole life.
I mean, it was just every singlethought or decision or
everything I did in life was putthrough that filter of, but how
is this gonna affect my sleep?
You know, and now it's like Idon't, I just don't ever think
that anymore.
And I think that is moremeaningful to me than better
sleep, to be honest.
(28:30):
Yes, you know, being free ofthat.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah, yeah, the free of the worry.
Because you just and whateverhappens, happens.
And I think you know, one thingthat you and Richard that's
great is like some nights,sometimes a bad night's sleep is
just a bad night's sleep.
Yeah.
Like you're and I and I thinkback like you know, before,
especially like when I hadsomething stressful going on the
next day, like, yeah, I wouldsleep terribly, waking up all
(28:54):
the time, you know, tossing andturning, but like then you know,
through insomnia, you just getso hyper focused on that.
And the more you focus on it,the worse you make it.
And it's such a weird thing thatyou just have to sit there and
not be at peace, but just sitthere with your insomnia and
your anxiety, you know, in themiddle of the night and tell
(29:15):
your like tell yourself I'mokay.
Yeah, I'm safe.
When I and that's the one thingwith this, like I had never
talked to myself before, atleast externally.
I talked to myself on theinside, but like I'd sit there
in bed and be like, you're gonnabe fine.
Yeah, you're okay, you're safe,and just reassure myself.
And weirdly enough, you do itenough times and it starts to
(29:38):
work.
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yeah, your brain starts believing you.
It's like, okay, maybe there,maybe he really is okay.
Yeah, maybe there's somethinglike that.
Maybe I can let down the guardnow.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah, and it's just such a and I remember like you
know, listen to your podcast andyou just think about it.
Yeah, like if for as evolved aswe are, our brain is still an
animal brain.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yeah, something has triggered the alarm and you're
brain can't stop focusing on itbecause it's so, you know,
worried by this thing and putsyour puts you in guard mode and
that's why you can't sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
Yes.
I mean we are consciously somuch further ahead than the
unconscious, you know, lizardbrain in this process.
And you know, I always think youalmost have to take the
unconscious mind by the hand,like it's a small child, and
just show it over and over thateverything is okay.
And really realize yourselflike, okay, this doesn't feel
okay, but I actually lookingaround, I I actually am okay.
(30:31):
And work and just working withwith your brain on it and it it
will eventually get on board.
It just takes time and andrepetition and a lot of
patience.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
A lot of yeah a lot of patience.
And for me it was interestingbecause my insomnia would like
morph into different things.
So it originally started withthe snoring and and you know not
being able to fall asleep.
SPEAKER_02 (30:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
And then you kind of forget it kind of forgets about
that.
And it's like what if I do thisto him and then you get all
anxious about that.
Yep.
And then you kind of relax aboutthat.
And then it's like what if I trythat like there's a period of
time like so I've always beenafraid of heights never a big
fan and I started having likethese dreams about like you know
(31:13):
being on super high things orpotentially falling off and like
I'd wake up and I'd be sofreaked out and I couldn't fall
back asleep.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
And I'm like what is happening well that's really
that's a very interesting likethat is your mind trying to get
your attention isn't thatfascinating.
SPEAKER_00 (31:30):
Yeah.
It was wild.
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
And then I remember listening on your podcast and
you're saying isn't thatinteresting?
SPEAKER_02 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
And so now I'm like isn't that interesting that my
brain is now doing this to me.
Yeah.
And it's just I feel like it'sbasically like unpacking all the
things with sleep that you'reafraid of and showing your brain
that you're okay with all thesethings like okay I'm okay with
snoring myself awake.
I'm okay with sitting in the bedand nodding off a bunch of times
(31:59):
but not falling into true sleep.
Yeah I'm okay sitting here notsleeping at all tonight.
I'm okay with waking up at threein the morning and not falling
back asleep.
unknown (32:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Just having to come to grips, having to talk to
yourself and be like it's gonnabe okay.
Like no matter what the nightthrows at me, my brain throws at
me, I'll be okay and I'll besafe.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Yeah.
Yeah and that is how we show ourbrain and it is a you know
acceptance is probably thesecret weapon in all of this and
and and just understanding whatis actually happening and that
it is just a conditioned arousaland and a fear in the mind and
we can develop fears about somany things in life.
And for us it just happened tobe around not sleeping.
(32:40):
And you know just going back alittle bit I wanted to to
mention how, you know, for youit's in progress started showing
up in sleep first, but it can bethe opposite.
So where you still had anxietyshowing up but sleep was better
sometimes the anxiety gets lessor the fear comes down but sleep
kind of you know comes later.
(33:01):
But what I think is is so greatabout what you shared is that it
shows you that anxiety andhyperarousal doesn't have to be
gone in order to sleep.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Oh 100% and I think one of my big one of my big
nights with that was I it beensuper stressful at work and I
was really anxious and you knowI'm coming home from work late
and I'm just all spun up with abunch of things and I'm like
there is no way I'm gonna sleeptonight.
Yeah.
Like I was kind of okay.
I'm like it just is what it islike it's gonna be a resting
(33:34):
yeah and I you know get homekick off my shoes grab a shower
real quick hop into bed turn theTV on just anticipating like I'm
gonna be up all night or and Idon't even I don't even think I
got through like the credits ofwhatever show I was watching.
Yeah and the next thing I knowmy alarm's going off and I'm
like what just happened I waslike and it's crazy yeah because
as anxious as I was I was stillable to sleep.
(33:57):
Right.
But then I would haveoccasionally I'd have the
opposite be true like I'd getinto bed and like oh what a
great day and just so relaxedand chilled out then I'd kind of
nod off and my brain would startscanning and I'm like oh cool I
don't feel anxious but it'sgonna be one of those nights and
it that's just a weirdfrustrating thing dealing like
your brain like you don't feelas anxious but your brain is
(34:20):
still in the back you know it'sstill slightly on hyper alert
mode and it's like oh I don'tknow if it's quite safe to let
you sleep yet.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
Yeah.
You know it's almost like you Ithink the isn't that interesting
approach was so helpful for mebecause it it just took me out
of because there isn't a lot ofrhyme or reason in all of this.
You know it is just very kind ofmessy and all over the map and
that's pretty standard.
But trying to even like pin itto what you did or didn't do or
(34:49):
find the pattern or find thething and it's sort of like
giving up all of that is therecovery process.
It's just kind of just likemaybe I do maybe I don't you
know and just and giving up onall all of the trying to figure
it out and that's what takes usout of the you know out of the
fight out of the struggle out ofthe figuring it out mode
(35:10):
basically and it's so hardbecause like that's what my
whole life has been exactlythat's what makes you so good at
your job.
Yeah exactly I know yeah I knowI I hear you I hear you and I
was gonna ask too before Iforget when I did a post way
back it's been a while about thebest way to use the mentorship
(35:32):
and you know as always you sogenerously chimed in and talked
about how you moved through it.
And you know since you talkedabout that I've been so curious
to hear how people use thementorship and use the resources
because there's you know there'sreally no right way and everyone
takes different things from theprogram.
But what was your process andand did it change at all over
(35:54):
over time?
SPEAKER_00 (35:55):
Yes it did.
So like I said when I first dida sleep coach school was you
know learn this watch thesevideos as fast as possible.
Yeah this will fix my anxiety.
And then when I joined thementorship I was like I really
want to absorb this so I limitmyself I would only watch one
video a day.
I would allow myself to watch itas many times as I wanted to
(36:16):
kind of like let it sink insometimes I would just sit there
and play it a couple times andthen you know I would go on to
the mentorship and askquestions.
And then what I would do like soevery night I try to walk I find
like it just is it's just goodfor me.
Like it's not going to make mesleep I learned that like it
will not make me sleep.
It won't take away my anxietybut it's just something I'd like
(36:38):
to do and just kind of like helpnot even wind down but just a
good ending to my day.
And the first part of my walkswould always be I'd listen to
one episode of your podcast.
And I was like I'm gonna startat the beginning and then you
know go all the way up topresent.
And then there would be certainepisodes that would really kind
of resonate with me and I wouldmark those down and like and
(36:59):
it's very weird like I would doit like if I had a rough day I'd
be like all right I'm gonna goon my walk and I'd listen to one
of your podcasts and it you knowafter a while I felt like it was
kind of like okay like this isall part of the process.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
You know like this is all part of the process.
It's not fun.
It's not necessarily short it'snot linear but this is where
we're at and just kind of likelisten to you talk and go over
different parts or even likesometimes I would be like okay
this is what I'm experiencingright now.
I'm gonna speed bump.
So I'd try to find speed bumpepisodes yeah and listen to that
(37:32):
and be like okay I can't try toget out of this because that's
not how this works.
I have to be okay with being inthis and then eventually it'll
kind of you know work throughit.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
And and now here you are on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (37:45):
So you've got full circle I love yeah I never
thought that I'd be here andthen one thing I kind of
promised myself was if I couldever get through this I would be
as helpful to other people aspossible because we talked about
earlier man is it lonely.
Yes and you know you see thepeople that just join up and you
see what they're going throughand you think back to those days
(38:05):
and it's just it's brutal andI'm lucky that you know I'm not
not I'm not married don't havekids so all I had to worry about
is myself.
So people that are you knowworrying about their families
and their kids and all thisstuff I'm like man I just had to
worry about myself through thisand that was all that was a mess
unto itself let alone having toraise kids be uh be in a
partnership like oof that's alot so I just want to be there
(38:28):
for people and kind of be likehey man like there is hope like
it's not going to be as quick asyou want it to be but there is
hope.
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Yes and you have been so generous in the
community and you know you'rekind of one of those people that
gets out of the fire and goesback to help and it's just been
such a wonderful thing to towatch as a coach.
And so how is life now?
You know I I I remember when wetalked that you said you love
your weekends and I I loved howmuch you love your weekends.
(38:58):
Yeah but you know anything elsethat you want to share about how
life is now in general?
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Life is pretty good.
Work is stressful.
I think that's just gonna be parfor the course working at the
police department.
My weekends are great.
This it's wild like how muchthis helped me in several
aspects of my life like learningjust to be okay with things like
in sitting with things is likeyou know a part of this too was
tied to anxiety and learninglike hey I'm just gonna I
(39:27):
remember talking to my uhpsychiatrist and he's like Rick
I hate to tell you but you'regonna be anxious in your life
like it's a human emotion.
You can't make that go away yeahyou just have to accept it and
you know he was like the harderyou push it away the more it's
gonna stick around yeah andyou're like oh and it's
(39:48):
interesting like uh your latestepisode about like insomnia
coming back yeah and necessarilyfor me it's not you know
sometimes it you know I'll havea rough night's sleep but
sometimes it's it it's weirdlike hearing a song or like
seeing something that reminds meof when I was in the worst part
of it and like you can feelthose emotions come like rushing
(40:09):
back and like sometimes my hairwill you know my hair on my arms
will stand up and I'll or getcold sweats for a minute because
you just think back on like yourtough tough struggles and you
kind of have to talk to yourbrain like hey but that's where
you see like those neuralpathways that are formed like
this makes you think of thistime which makes which just you
know heightens that you knowthat stress and that anxiety
(40:30):
like holy moly and you reallytruly realize how strong your
brain can be yeah and that mighthappen for a while and I think
you know there is a a bit of awhen you come out of something
like this it it's processingsome grief.
SPEAKER_01 (40:45):
You know it's processing like what you went
through.
And you know that can that cantake some time.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
I just remember thinking like you know through a
lot of this like you startidentifying yourself as someone
with some insomnia and you knowlike it can become your identity
and it's you know and like wetalked about like you literally
focus your whole days on it andit shouldn't be that way like
you you know that's the that'swhat just makes it worse and you
(41:12):
kind of just have to like let itrun its course and it can be so
so hard but slowly slowly itgoes away slowly you find
yourself thinking about it lessand less yeah and you know it'll
come back every once in a whileand you think about it and you
know you feel those the heebiejeebies as I call them and
you're like oh man.
Yeah and then even that'll butyou have to be okay with feeling
(41:35):
those emotions and you know Ijust try to focus focus on
showing myself hey you you'reokay like and it's okay to feel
anxious about thinking aboutinsomnia you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah it doesn't mean that anything has gone wrong.
In fact it's a part of thehealing you know it's a part of
the process.
SPEAKER_00 (41:52):
Yeah yeah and so yeah it's it's pretty good like
I don't know like I and then onething too is like learning not
to go in back to like thinkingtoo much like what was my sleep
like like I on my CPAP that Ihave it will track how much oh
yeah you know how long I had iton for and this that I don't
ever look at any of that stuff.
Yeah on purpose because I don'twant to go you know back down
(42:16):
you know like I still practicefor the most part the timeless
method like I try to not checkmy phone after 10 o'clock.
Yep.
Um it's weird though like it'sso funny for me because
everyone's different like if Ican if I fall asleep I can now
wake up in the middle of thenight and I can look at my clock
and be like how much time do Ihave left yeah and be okay and
(42:36):
then and then like I'll put onif I'm and then if I'm kind of
struggling a bit I'll put on aTV show and you know don't even
often make it through the firstepisode and then before I know
it my alarm's going off again.
So I think it's a lot ofprogress there.
And then also too I don't knowI'm now 44 years old and I
talked to a lot of my buddiesabout this stuff because it's
interesting to see like otherpeople that have sleep struggle
(42:59):
sleep issues you know because weall do but they don't let it it
doesn't for them it doesn't turninto insomnia.
Yeah they'll just be like oh manlately I've just been sleeping
really terribly and like butthey're not worried about it.
And you're like oh well it'sgood that you don't worry about
it because that's a whole nothera whole nother thing.
And just knowing like as I'vegotten older like my sleep isn't
going to be the same now as whenI was you know 20 years old.
(43:22):
Like I'm you know like just I'vechanged my you know I'm up way
earlier now than I was when Iwas younger.
So I'm never gonna be able tosleep until 11 o'clock again.
And that's okay.
Like as long as I can get somegood sleep you know anytime I
get I get really weary anytime Isee like oh do these hacks to
improve your sleep and I'm likeoh boy no thank you and people
(43:44):
really harping on getting eightplus hours and it's like no
that's that's not how thatworks.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
No, I know that myth has caused so many problems.
It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
You know and no one even knows where the eight hours
came from you know it's justgonna kind of pulled out of thin
air yeah and I'll sleep like Iprobably sleep between each
night six and around sevenhours.
Yeah and I feel better now thanpre-insomnia when I was sleeping
eight nine ten hours.
I think so like just kind ofpeace of mind the CPAP I'm sure
(44:19):
helps and just not stressingabout it like most days I wake
up and there's that initial likemy alarm goes off at five every
morning and I'm like but by thetime I'm out of the shower I'm
like all right let me get mycoffee in and let's get after
it.
I'm feeling pretty good by then.
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yeah yeah I often joke you know I'm so indifferent
to sleep now that I I I wonderlike do I need to think about it
a little bit more because youknow because I just don't you
know I don't know I'm likealmost like have I fallen have I
gone to the sleep optimizationcategory of people?
Like I actually have become oneof those people that needs to
(44:54):
optimize my sleep I don't knowbut I'm just I'm so I'm so happy
for you Rick and you know lastquestion and it it's a bit
different than the silverlighting question that I usually
ask because you have been sogenerous of spirit what would
you say to someone with insomniawho is you know still on the
climb what would you like themto know?
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Keep hope it's gonna get better.
Keep hope and it's so tough inthose dark hours of the morning
it is so hard.
Like I would just sit there andcry or want to cry sometimes but
like keep hope and it will bebetter and just trust in the
process too I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Yeah trust in the process because it will get you
where you need to go and yeahthat would be that would be my
advice to people amazing I lovethat I can thank you enough for
sharing and just honest being sohonest about your experience and
and like I said I'm so happy foryou and I am truly grateful that
I I had the chance to to workwith you.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Yeah it's been awesome like I will this is
probably one of the most lifechanging things in my life yeah
and it's pretty cool to come upthe other side because it has an
application kind of across theboard in your life to just kind
of learn to deal with superstressful and uncomfortable
things.
And I feel like my threshold fordealing with things through
insomnia which I think was thewas awful like is massively
(46:16):
improved and it's made me betteras a person.
So that's kind of cool.
That's a cool little sidebenefit but yeah thank you so
much and just being for justbeing there for people and
teaching us this it's so wild tome that like all these sleep
doctors like this is so not ontheir radar and I don't
understand how.
SPEAKER_01 (46:34):
I know and someday we'll get to to so look back
we'll we'll say well we were atthe leading edge of all of this
we knew how way back when we gotforefront right yeah exactly so
well said and for all of you outthere listening thanks a lot for
being with us and we will seeyou next time on the Mind Body
Sleep podcast.
Bye Rick bye have a good one youtoo thank you thanks for being
(47:01):
here today if you love what youheard on today's episode don't
forget to hit the like buttonand subscribe to the podcast and
if you need more support withyour sleep join me in the mind
body sleep mentorship this threemonth one-on-one program will
transform your relationship withsleep so you can get back to
living the life that you lovefree from the fear of not
sleeping head on over tobethkendle.com for more details
(47:24):
I'll see you next time
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