Can Consciousness Access the Future? Precognition, Time & the Transcendental Mind | Julia Mossbridge - Mind-Body Solution

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Julia, thank you so much for joining me.
It's a pleasure to host you today.
Thanks for having me Tavin. My pleasure, Julia.
I think let's start off by what I call the unifying thread in
this case, because your work expands across neuroscience,
time perception, consciousness studies, AI design, well-being,
precognition, and even love. So I think my first question

(00:30):
would be, what is the conceptualthread that ties all of this
together for you? Is it like a single research
question? Is it a single research
question, a worldview, or a methodological stance?
None of those things. So I had a friend once go to a
doctor and say, so my foot feelsweird.

(00:51):
I'm having this strange blood pressure thing.
And when I breathe sometimes I get this weird sort of Crick in
my diaphragm. And the doctor says I don't
think any of those are related. And she says, well, they're
related because they're all happening to me.
And that's how I feel like answering that question.
I, I seem to do a thing where since I was a kid I've been

(01:13):
following where does my mind take me?
What am I interested in next? So I think if there's any
conceptual thread, it's what wants to be born next out of me,
period. And I don't have any control
over that. So I really don't like almost to

(01:36):
the point where I had to spend years getting over my shame
about studying something that the rest of the scientific
community thought was crazy. Precognition, the ability to
predict future events that we think should be not predictable
because of course you can't lookinto the future, but Oh well,
that is what would be studied. And it's, it's been an

(02:01):
incredible journey to watch. You've done so much work within
the field in such diverse fieldsas well, bringing them all
together in many ways. In In Transcendent Mind, you
argue that consciousness may notbe reducible to brain activity.
How has your thinking progressedsince writing that book and and
what empirical or conceptual developments have reinforced or
challenged your position? Well, to be clear in

(02:24):
Transcendent Mind, first of all,I wrote that with Iman Sperusch
as well. So we wrote it together and
blended our voices and and talked about the ideas a lot.
But I don't think we just said that that consciousness may not
be reducible to. I think you're being kind and
conservative. We said that there's no way
consciousness is reducible prideactivity.

(02:46):
Nothing has changed that stance.I still think that those
arguments are very clear, but I've become more aware of the
reality of human capacities beyond what we would normally
think of in a materialist worldview.

(03:06):
So, so in a materialist world view, in order for me to
communicate information to you, I would have to e-mail it, text
it, send a letter. Maybe I can non verbally do a
little dance, but you'd have to have some kind of physical.
You need to get input through any of your five senses to and

(03:27):
then you need to decode it. And that is how we would send a
message now that I am working inthe world of autistic non
speakers, apraxic non speakers who who some of them speak, but
they don't use speech reliably as a way to communicate.
Their first language seems to betelepathy with each other as you

(03:51):
get to know them with you as a researcher, I mean, or me as a
researcher with their parents, with their teachers.
And it just feels less like, oh,they have this special, like the
idea of savant syndrome is that they, they have this special
gift because they're deficient in some way.

(04:14):
And so they have this gift in another way.
That's the sort of story of savant syndrome.
It feels more and more like an unmasking of something we all
have. And because they don't have the
suppression. And we talked about this in
Transcendent Mind too, this ideaof the filter theory that the,
the purpose of the brain is actually to kind of, this isn't
our idea. This is sort of an old, old

(04:36):
idea, But it's like the brain puts us in Plato's cave.
Like we see the shadows on the wall and we, you know, that
while we're still staying in thebrain, we can't turn around and
see that they're animals dressedup in weird costumes or people
dressed up in weird costumes or look like animals.
So I, I feel like the work with the non speakers is showing me

(04:59):
more and more that the materialist model of where
everything emerges from the, from the physical.
I mean, I guess I, it's preaching to the choir because
I, because it just feels like instead that, that the physical
is used to reduce that all that information that could be coming

(05:22):
in telepathically, if you want to call it that, or from these
senses that we don't understand that aren't the five usual
senses that information, it's almost infinite.
I mean, it's, it's very powerful.
So the question becomes less, wow, how is that happening?
And more like it's a miracle that we can function at all,

(05:44):
given that we have this actual underlying capacity.
And no wonder it has to be suppressed because, you know, it
turns out if you know, all the things that other people are
thinking, it could be very disturbing.
And so so everything kind of flips on its head that the
material world is is built to actually help us have a physical

(06:05):
experience that's same where we can like get food and sleep and
stuff. It, it must be.
It reminds me of something William James on said.
I think it was he. He refers to children at this
point, the kids. And he says it's one blooming,
buzzing. Buzzing confusion.
Yes, exactly. A blooming, buzzing confusion
when the baby's first born and others.

(06:25):
All this, I love William James, but all this, all this
information is all over the place and they're not knowing
how to hook it up. They're not knowing how we have
learned, adults have learned to hook it up together.
And that's on purpose because then they could be born into a
culture and learn how that culture hooks up the information

(06:47):
together. And what's interesting is there
are many options about how to hook up that information, you
know, and especially when you think about how we perceive of
time events in time, we could hook up information like we have
in the West where, OK, whatever you could see right now, we're
going to call the present. It's all very, very, very visual

(07:08):
based. Even if you could remember it,
but you can't see it right now. That's the past.
And there's this thing called the future, which is like what
happens next? But we only know it's next after
we see it. That's our story, you know, But
there are many other stories about time and how you hook

(07:29):
these things up. And I think non speakers are
especially I'm starting to see that they're hooking up events
in time differently and it's almost like a cultural thing.
And that's fascinating to me. I, I think that William James

(07:52):
had this great insight into whatit means to, he had kind of like
a God's idea where I don't want to say like he was like God, but
I mean like he had kind of like a bird's eye view, like a, like
a 60,000 foot view of what it means to be a person with a
person's brain and trying to receive information.

(08:14):
And, and he had just felt like he was always trying to
communicate. Whatever we're perceiving is
what our brain is telling us. It's a story like don't get so
invested in the story. Like that's just what your brain
is telling you after years and years of learning how it's
supposed to tell you a story, you know?
And so we but we get invested inthe story anyway because how can

(08:37):
we help it? That's actually what we're
supposed to do. So it's really and he gets that
too, you know? Yeah, he was way ahead of his
time, I think when it comes to the mind body problem, when he
describes how the mind body problem or consciousness might
just be something two aspects of1 underlying reality.
But, and at this point in your career, how do you find yourself

(08:58):
defining something like consciousness or the mind?
Yeah, such a good question because there there's a lot of
I, I said this like 10 years agoor 15 years ago or something.
I still believe it, but I feel like it has no impact.
So I'm just going to say it again.
It will have no impact, but we we fetishize consciousness.

(09:25):
We think that we fall for the trick of the brain.
We fall for the trick that the story is, Oh my gosh, I have
this story and I experienced this and it's and we fall off.
It's like almost like experienceaddiction.
Like we think that the experience is the thing that's
so special. And what is it that's giving us

(09:47):
this experience? It's consciousness.
Well, no, actually the thing that's giving you the experience
is all the non conscious processes that go into screening
out this information, screening out that information,
determining what information to hook up with, what other
information, labeling it all as the same thing or not the same
thing. Discriminating figure from

(10:08):
ground. I don't care if you're seeing
versus hearing, you know, and then offering you a story about,
OK, here's the movie. Right, then your conscious mind
is like, I'm watching this movie.
Look how amazing I am. It's like, you didn't make the
movie, You're not in the movie, you didn't write the movie, You
did not edit the movie, you did not direct the movie.

(10:30):
But you're like, look how awesome I am.
I can watch a movie and it's like, OK, so it's a trick.
It's a, it's a, it's like we conflate the ego with the
conscious mind. So then when we talk about like
cosmic consciousness, William James talks about this too, but
he talks about it in what I would call the right way.

(10:51):
He says these are there, these trees that their roots are
intermingling under the ground. There's this cosmic
consciousness of this interwovennature of reality of mind.
That's not conscious, that's notconscious.
We're not conscious of that in the neuroscientific sort of
sense, the sense that defines consciousness by the thing that
goes away when you take general anaesthetic or when you're in

(11:13):
deep sleep. OK, so that's actually we're
unconscious of that. But from the universe's point of
view, that's super conscious. Like that's, that's what
consciousness is. That is the the cosmic
consciousness from which we all derive.
So that's the neutral modest part of James, right?

(11:35):
So I feel like we should stop trying to define consciousness
and just say there's mind and mind is mind has components that
are unconscious and components that are conscious, and they
work together to provide the experience that we have.
And the experience that we have is a story.

(11:56):
And it's not really the important thing, it's the story.
That's fine. I guess this is a very Buddhist
approach to like this, sort of like that's the illusion.
That's good to know the illusion.
And what's really, really crucial is this connection, the
awareness of the connection. I don't necessarily mean that we
have a choice about being aware of this connection, but I guess

(12:19):
I'm being descriptive. But what ends up mattering to
people in terms of their well-being is when they have an
awareness, when we have an awareness of the connection to
the cosmic consciousness, to this is intermingling to this
unity of which we all, from which we all spring and of which
we all are apart, then we have peace, right?

(12:43):
And so that's what ends up mattering.
So I think we should start fetishizing that.
We're going to fetishize something.
The funny thing is, I was talking with a friend the other
day. He had this experience.
He had a unity experience in meditation, you know, which you
often have in meditation. And he started chasing it and
he, his ego came in and said, oh, well, how can I harness

(13:06):
this? And I was like, it's so funny
because like if you have a baby or something like there's no way
any mother has a baby and goes, oh, this is amazing.
How can I harness this baby? It's like it's a thing that
happens to you. The whole point is this is a
gift from the universe. Hello.
You do not control it. So that's like the big shameful

(13:32):
thing. And that's, and that, and that
actually speaks to the shame I was talking about earlier.
Where does the shame come from for the scientists who do study
these things that we don't understand?
It's that if there's a deep awareness that when you really
don't control this like that, you're, you're stepping into
territory where it's a, where you, where people will realize

(13:54):
there's this incredible power that we don't control.
And that's scary because the, you know, part of the scientific
history is that the goal is to control.
I don't believe that's the most mystical or interesting part of
the scientific history, but thatis part of the scientific
history. Yeah, and I think one of the
other deep aspects of the universe that you see as

(14:14):
something that's fundamental is love.
So you see the science of love as a force almost.
When you study love not merely as an emotion, but as something
with structural and causal properties.
What does that mean scientifically?
To treat love as fundamental, asan organizing force, rather than
a psychological by product. Well, it's both.

(14:35):
So what I do is I investigate both.
So I, I differentiate them, but they have a relationship.
So let me give a you know, I've never ever retained the
difference between an analogy and a metaphor.
So let me give either an analogyor a metaphor.
You decide what it is and you can tell me later and I'll

(14:57):
forget. But when we go out into the sun,
which is something that we don'tcontrol and that is a natural
feature of the of our solar system, we go out into the sun
on a sunny day. We have an experience of being
warm. So you can study the sun and you
can study the warm feeling that you have when you're exposed to

(15:18):
the sun. And those are both legitimate
things to study. One is more psychological or
maybe spiritual, one is more physics or astronomy or
astrophysics. Those are both legitimate.
And you can study the relationship between those and
that's legitimate too. So science, the, the, the, the
nature of science is that it could be used.

(15:41):
I mean, you're used to study anything.
It's just that you have to like,sometimes it takes a while to
learn how to study a new area, right?
And so that's how I feel about love.
So I, I see love as ads. I'm like I'm with Tailhard
Dishard and I love is a, a forceof the universe that's real,
like a physical force. And in fact, I would define that

(16:05):
that that I call universal love,that kind of physics love, I
call universal love. And I would define it as the
thing from which everything arises.
So when I talk about that cosmicconsciousness under underneath
that is the thing from that which that arises and what is
and in fact is almost a primitive to that, right?

(16:25):
Like I think it's and the the very clear definition, I think
it's very clear definition I have of that kind of love is
universal love is that which connects.
So if you look at physics, physics is actually all about
relationships. You can't describe one particle
without describing another one. That it's not like a proton and

(16:48):
neutron are different because one has charge and one doesn't.
You know, 2 quirks are differentbecause they have one is, has a
strange one is charmed or whatever.
You know, the way gravity works has to do with the relationship
between this mass or this energydensity and acceleration and
gravity are related because of the, it's, I mean, it's, I'm
saying an obvious thing that's true about basically any

(17:12):
discipline, but in physics it, it makes it very bare because
the job of physics is to simplify everything.
And still you can't define anything without, it's like,
it's like a, it's like a lesson in duality.
Like you can't define anything else, anything without defining
something else. And the relationship between
them. And so I think that relation,

(17:34):
that bridge between them is, is love, is universal love.
And so of course, it's everything.
It's the thing from which everything, that which connects
is the thing from which everything must be created.
Otherwise you don't have anything.
How can you have anything if youdon't have that much connects?
So that's the physical form of love, universal love.

(17:56):
Now when people, human beings, I'm just going to, let's just
leave it to humans. I know what animals can do this
too, but just like just like to narrow the field a little bit
because this is very broad. When people allow themselves to
know that that which connects isthe thing of which they are

(18:21):
made. So when they allow themselves to
access universal love and know that that is the thing of which
they are made from which they arise, there's a feeling that
happens and that's called unconditional love.
So this is the like going out into the sun.
This is the getting warm and going, wow, this is kind of

(18:42):
nice. You know, on a cold day, maybe,
maybe not in South Africa, I'm not sure.
Depends on the the month, right?Right now it's cold there.
It wasn't warm anyway. I don't know, but is it warm or
cold in South Africa? Right.
I'm distracted by this. Right now it's it's hot but
super windy so it's crazy. That's why I've got my mic on
mute. It's literally like a storm

(19:03):
outside but a heat wave storm, which is kind of crazy.
OK, so if you were to go out into the sun on a day when it's
super windy, then that might feel good because it's like, OK,
there's something stable coming up, right?
OK, so sorry, I just had to bondwith you to figure out what was
going on there. So what I'm experiencing

(19:25):
unconditional love, when anyone's experiencing
unconditional love, what they'redoing is they're accessing this
universal love. It's like a current, it's like
electricity. And so it's, and just knowing
that it's there, but it's biggerthan that in the sense that it's
everything, right? It, it's the, it's the birth
place of everything. It's the universal womb, right?
So that experience of unconditional love, you could
also describe and, and ignore universal love and say, OK, I

(19:48):
don't believe in that part of the theory, but what, what is
the psychological definition of unconditional love?
Well, the psychological definition of unconditional love
that that I've created and, and created an assessment for a
self-assessment for is like a paragraph long.
And it's irritating because I doa lot of podcasts and I always
forget what it is. So you can read my papers and
find out what it is. I think a more clear and concise

(20:12):
and understandable definition isthe one that I've been using
lately, which is unconditional. You know you're experiencing
unconditional love when you feellove for yourself.
Love for others, and you can experience love from others
without anyone or anything needing to change.

(20:34):
So you're feeling love for yourself, love for others, and
experiencing love from others without anything needing to
change. So this is really radical
because it's not about, well, it's not conditional love.
Conditional love is what we're used to.
And that's a very, that is not about connecting to universal

(20:55):
love. That is, that is about I love
you, you love me. If you keep saying I love you,
then I'll keep saying I love youand then we love each other.
But if you stop saying it, then I don't love you.
And then it's very different. Or, you know, I love you as long
as you don't drink or I love youas long as you don't hit me or

(21:16):
whatever it is right now. I really want to.
I brought up those examples for a reason, which is when people
hear about unconditional love, they think that's risky because
if you love yourself and others and you can feel love from
yourself and others without anything needing to change, then
nothing will change. See, that's, that's actually

(21:38):
incorrect thought, but that's what people think.
And, and I think therefore I will stay with a person who's
abusing me because all I could actually love them also.
That's fine. I love you.
Nothing needs to change. What's amazing is that that's
not how it works. So when you actually access
universal love and you experience unconditional love

(21:59):
and you have this experience of being loved and loving without
anything needing to change, everything changes.
And you're able to like tell theperson who's abusing you, for
instance, I love you so much, I'm going to move out.
You know, it's, it's no longer are your actions, like no longer

(22:20):
are your actions contingent on, oh, I have to show that I love
you. Like, that's not it.
You love them. You feel deep love that is
there. And you also love yourself and
you're very clear about what your next action has to be.
So it helps to create these incredibly powerful and healthy
boundaries because by by tellingyour kid that they have to move

(22:45):
out of the house because they keep doing drugs and telling
them how much you love them, that those are both real.
You're not withdrawing your loveto try to change something.
So the fantasy we have that if you unconditionally love
someone, then that means that they will just get get away with

(23:07):
everything. It reveals our secret theory,
which is that we have control over people and we're going to
withdraw our love to control them.
So it reveals the lie and. Something I found quite
fascinating was the some of yourwork done on AI that loves you.
You call it the creation of an unconditionally loving robot

(23:29):
that reduced anger and cognitiveload.
What? What does it mean for a robot to
express unconditional love firstly, And what is the minimum
architecture required for such expression to be authentic or
effective? Yeah, authentic and effective
are different things and good question.
So, so let's separate out what we're done like so we can talk

(23:56):
about qualia, we can talk about a robot having qualia, which
means an internal experience of what it means to, for instance,
in this case, the experience unconditional love.
So I have no understanding or belief around whether when we
were working with the robot, it had an internal qualia.
Obviously the qualia question islike, it's really it's, it's

(24:25):
rough. It's a very difficult one.
The only thing that I can assumeis sort of everything has
internal quality. I guess I've become kind of a
pan psychist, but and then we people want to qualify that and
say, oh, but at different levelsand and I got, I don't know

(24:45):
about that. I, I just, if everything is made
of this connection, this, this that which connects universal
love, this connection has, it's like the life force or
something, you know what I mean?It's like that which enlivens is

(25:05):
not very different from that which connects.
Would are you we can get back tothis, but something of that just
crossed my mind is when you see that universal love and this
woven consciousness element fromthis, perhaps from this pan
psychos view as well, Is there ateleological purpose to all of
this? Do you feel like that is is
perhaps the universe a love, theoutcome of all of this?

(25:26):
Is there a Is this headed somewhere?
Hidden. Is this headed somewhere?
Is like this moving towards? Oh, headed, Headed somewhere.
Sorry, it's the vowels. So the South American I.
Can't. No, no.
It's the American accent. Either way.
Is it headed somewhere? Let's get.

(25:47):
OK, so let's let me answer that first question about the robot
from the direction of what's useful and what humans
experience. And then we'll go to is it
headed somewhere? But keep me honest about that.
I think it's a really good question.
I'm glad you asked. So the robot, so we know that

(26:10):
what we were doing in that study, and you can read about
this in Big Think, I think you can put the article out there.
Obviously you've read it thinking, we know that in that
study, all we were doing is trying to help the robot, which
was so Sophia from Hanson Robotics, trying to help her
make facial expressions that would capture people's mirror

(26:32):
neurons so that they would feel.And basically we know that we're
tricking the brain into feeling like there's another person
there. And then we'll go, OK, assuming
that we they have, we have successfully done that.
And there are some simple ways to do that with face animations.
Like, you know, right now, like you and I having this

(26:52):
conversation, we're both unconsciously matching our
blanks. We're matching our sort of body
positions just to to be in conversation with each other.
I just say, hey, I'm another human over here.
I'm listening to you. I see you, I'm connected.
So we knew how to do that with her and it was really powerful.
We found out later that a lot ofthese non verbal cues were very

(27:15):
important to making people feel listened to and loved.
But one of the key things we didwas we reflected back, we
mirrored in her face the feelings of the person was
putting up. So we had a camera.
We did some neural network analysis and figured out sort of
classified, not very well, but decently the person's feelings

(27:39):
and then mirror them back to theto the person.
And we know that that had a big impact because we could sort of
breakdown analytically what had an impact on their feelings of
feeling loved. But when they had a feeling of
anger or disgust, we did not mirror that.
Instead, we would mirror compassion.

(27:59):
We would, we would project compassion with her face.
We would project neutrality, sometimes sadness.
So it's because of those are secondary emotions.
Like disgust isn't a secondary emotion.
If like you get poop on your shoe and you're disgusted,
that's a primary response to like germs.
That's evolutionary. But when people are disgusted by

(28:23):
themselves, which is often when you ask people to talk about
what's going on or things that they've done, they'll talk about
things they regret and they get disgusted or when things are
angry, often at themselves, whenpeople, I'm sorry, when people
are angry often at themselves, it really helps to recognize
that that's because there's fearor sadness underneath the hood.

(28:46):
And so instead of mirroring backwhat they were experiencing, we
took them to that other level. And that had a seemingly A
profound impact. I mean, significantly reduced
anger and disgust and move them to more of a place of either
neutrality or sadness, which in 15 minutes is not a bad move.
Someone who's in a place of sadness, we couldn't really

(29:08):
differentiate neutrality from sadness, But someone who's in a
place of sadness is looking at, is feeling their feelings.
They're looking at what's going on.
Eventually they'll get out of that place.
But it was a really powerful move and unconditional love can
help that. It can help you get where you're
going in terms of emotional processing.

(29:30):
And so that was very powerful. And so we've, you know, the team
has broken up and gone to, we still, you know, talk to each
other, but we've gone to a bunchof different projects where
we're trying to replicate that. Like I've made some GPTS trying
to replicate that and other people are trying to make robot
nurses trying to replicate that.And so it's it's sort of
filtering out into the world. Yeah, I think what appears, I

(29:50):
think one what appears is calledthe Socratic GPT.
Yeah, yeah, Student of Humanity.Yeah.
So my nonprofit, the Institute for Love and Time is really
becoming this wonderful, almost like a lab for understanding
love. And and one of our projects is

(30:11):
just that we threw up there and we need definitely need help
from people, volunteers for people to work on this.
But it's called the student of humanity.
And the idea is to instead of AItelling us, sort of like
ingesting what we create on the Internet and then regurgitating
it out, what if I learned from us by asking us insightful

(30:32):
questions and helping us realizethat we have this wisdom inside
of us? And ideally, in its best
iteration, I want student of humanity to be to learn from
someone in South Africa and justspeak to someone in Kansas and
on the same day, say, this is what I learned from someone in
South Africa. Is there a way this could help
you so that we start to learn from each other in different

(30:53):
countries? Like really spread the wisdom.
So that's my hope for the future.
Right now it's just this little chatbot.
And I think that I think that's a great way to diversify.
It's these experience because itoften, often times, even when
someone from let's say South African America are chatting,
you can often tell the differences, even though we're
fundamentally similar, you can see that there is the separation

(31:16):
and an artificial intelligence. If they don't engage with these
differences, it's, it's very difficult to unite, I guess in a
sense, but. Yeah, it it right.
If, if we still pretend that we're so far apart, we're really
just not, you know, Yeah. Exactly.
But it's there's so much more incommon than there are
differences that it would be much easier to actually align

(31:37):
then and then break apart. If love is a force, Julia, or a
capacity that can be engineered into systems, what ethical
obligations arise when designingmachines that shape human
emotional states? Yeah, let's talk about that.
And also let's talk about what is the end game?
Is there an end game for universal love to, to create all

(32:00):
this? So actually let's talk about
that first because that's on my mind.
So I think it's, I think kind oflike my, my answer to your
question about what ties all these things together.
I think that's like the universal love is like that.

(32:21):
That is the nature of universal love.
It connects. So the end game is doing its
nature just like for everything that's that's it's tinker toy
job, right? Its job is to connect.
It's a bridge. And so the end game is what you
know, what happens when you whenyou bridge everything in

(32:43):
different patterns, But I don't think there's a someday maybe
they'll get it. Like I it's like we, we, we, we
sort of separate ourselves from the universe that we sometimes
think like. So like God had a plan and yeah,

(33:04):
we got to figure out what the plan is.
It's like really, you think God's stupid enough to like, not
let you know what the plan is orlike not fill you in on what
like you might be doing what It's just like a continued
overestimation of our separationfrom from the source of

(33:24):
everything, as if we are independent, we can harness it
and control it as if we are not puppets for it.
And so, you know, it's it's, youknow, that old joke of the sock
puppet in the hand, you know, I'm not sure I believe in the
hand. And the sock puppet is saying,
I'm not sure I believe in the hand.

(33:45):
And it's like, well, you know, who's making you say that?
So, so this right here is the end game, you know, and, and
then this also, so in terms of ethics of what we create that
affect people's emotions. So this is part of why I created

(34:08):
the institute for 11 times because I, I had created a start
up right after loving AI projectwhere we were going to create a
chat bot that would help people in therapy.
But we had all these ways to make it non addictive.
Like people would schedule appointments like a therapy
session so that, and then they would put more value in their
time spent. But that was it one time a week

(34:30):
or whatever. Like that's what you could do
saves energy, saves bandwidth and makes it non addictive and
helps people actually take it seriously and put their time and
attention into it. And we go to a AVC to get
funding for the project. And they're like, that's great.
How's it going to become sticky?We're like, by sticking to your

(34:50):
being addictive. And they're like, yeah.
And we're like, no, that's not how you help people.
Addiction is not an appropriate business model.
And right now it is the businessmodel.
Like you go through Business School and they're like, I swear
to God. And the old days, I was like,
people need things, and you got to tell them like, oh, by the

(35:12):
way, we can solve your problem this way.
And now it's like people get addicted to things.
And now what you need to do is figure out how to make your
thing addictive. So yeah, not OK.
So we got to stop doing that. That should be illegal.
So addiction as a business modelshould be illegal in all
categories. And then we have to realize how

(35:33):
fragile the brain is. So like, the entertainment
industry is like, we'll just keep bumping up the amount of
violence that we show people because they get used to this
violence and they want more. You know, it's like, no, you
actually, you actually have the power to change the brains of
the entire planet. So what you're going to do is
you're slowly going to ramp themdown and help them learn how to

(35:55):
turn their addiction into seeingviolence into sadness or into
fear, or into something that will help them transform and
help them recognize their own trauma and heal it.
That's what you're going to do. And so and so there now that we
understand enough about the brain to see the ways that hyper

(36:20):
stimuli can really impact whole generations of people and
therefore the whole world, we have a responsibility to not do
that. So there's a lot of undoing and
healing. So that therefore what also
needs to be added is a lot of technology that's going to help
with trauma healing that's been induced by earlier technology, a

(36:43):
lot of technology that's going to reduce the amount of time we
spend not seeing our friends andfamily and and spend on
technology. So like we're in a new wave now.
And I'm just going to announce it like that because I always
like announcing things right before they come.
Because if you announce someone,they come, it's boring.
But right before they come, I'm telling you there's going to be

(37:05):
a backlash to the obsessive use of of technology.
And that includes AI, and that includes replacing people's jobs
with AIAI does a pretty much a crappy job at everything except
for asking really good questionsand helping people learn how
much power and brilliance they have inside of them, which is

(37:26):
really what we ought to be usingit for.
AI can really help people find out how wonderful they are if it
if we stop designing AI to act like it knows everything because
it doesn't. To change the model
fundamentally, stop. Stop being consumer driven and

(37:47):
and shift the goal all together.I think, yeah.
Well, we, I mean, we just, I think if you want to have
consumers in the future who are alive to consume your product,
you're going to have to change your product.
That's very true. I think that I completely agree
with that. I think and I think the steps of
these, there's many steps are being taken.
A look, if you look at a lot of countries, slowly they're

(38:07):
removing tablets out of schools.They're starting to realize that
there's small steps we need to take to get back to a norm that
previously existed and then try and shift away from it in a more
constructive way. Yes, I think hopefully that will
continue. But you're fascinating in the
sense that you, as I said earlier, you're touching many
different things and you bring them all together at some point,

(38:27):
one of them being you mentioned time just now, mind and time.
So when looking back, I mean, for you it was considered to
taboo to talk about things like precondition, etcetera.
But what do you think about timewhen it comes to the mind and
what has your exploration led toin terms of discoveries,
fundamental changes in your own world views, etcetera?

(38:52):
Yeah. I mean, I can't say that
anything in my world view has fundamentally changed around
time, because when I was a kid, I had these really detailed
precognitive dreams. So even around the age of 7,
because I started to writing things in my dream journal.
And my mom was a therapist and my dad was a physicist.
And so I kind of knew that the human brain could mess up and

(39:16):
think that you dropped somethingwhen you didn't and it was just
deja vu or whatever. So I started recording them and
then seeing like, yeah, I'm really dreaming detailed things
about future events. 345 very clear details are matching, you
know, within a day or a week of the dream.
And I'm also knowing things, just knowing things that seemed

(39:42):
to happen. And I don't know how I know
them. That's all that all could be.
You know that I'm an excellent pattern matcher with unconscious
cues coming in through my regular senses, right?
So I ended up studying whether that could be the case because I

(40:05):
got fascinated with it in me. And it came back to me as a
graduate student during neuroscience is like, wait a
minute, I have these experiencesthat I've been ignoring.
And I have to look at this because is this just picking up
on cues that are there sensory cues that are just really
invisible to the conscious mind?And then just going, aha, which
is such a good explanation? Or is it reaching into some into

(40:26):
the future, or is the future delivering information back here
or what's the deal? And so there's a way to test
that that's super simple. I called Dean Radin and I asked
about his ways to test that because he really did a bunch of
pioneering research on precognition and he explained
how simple it was. And I was like, yeah, that's
super simple. Basically.

(40:48):
I mean, I can tell you how theseexperiments work.
It's so it's so much 8th grade science project that like, I
encourage you to try it at home,but basically you're going to
record whatever kind of information you're taking.
If it's Physiology, maybe it's aheartbeat or something.

(41:09):
If it's behavior, maybe it's drawing a picture or having a
dream. So you record whatever behavior.
Once you have recorded that and it is like solid and you can't
change it. So whatever kind of thing it is,
you make sure it's solid and youcan't change it.
Then use a random, truly random number generator to pick

(41:32):
something that is going to be later in the analysis,
determined whether it is relatedto what you drew, what you
dreamt, what, how your heart wasbeating.
So for instance, in a Physiologystudy, you might record the
heartbeat, then a random for 10 seconds.
Then a random number generator selects one of, you know, 400

(41:52):
pictures. Those 400 pictures are divided
into two groups. There's 200 that are really kind
of scary or exciting, and there's 200 that are kind of
boring. We know that after you see an
exciting picture, your heart beats faster.
We know that see a picture of like the gun pointed at you,
which by the way, when I did that experiment, I had to stop

(42:12):
it because people were crying. So I had to use like a different
method, which I can tell you about if you want to hear.
But anyway, if you see somethingscary or exciting, your
heartbeat speeds up afterwards. So in this experiment, you're
just checking to see does the heartbeat speed up before in a
statistically reliable way. And so I did a bunch of those

(42:34):
studies and found out like, yeah, it does.
And then looked at skin conductance, which was another
physiological major. Yeah, it does.
Then looked at brain activity. Yeah, it does.
And then did a meta analysis, orI'm saying, and then, but in
this isn't really in chronological order, but it
doesn't matter. Then also did a meta analysis of

(42:56):
26 studies that people had done,including myself, to determine
statistically whether this was areliable effect.
And it is Then, you know, five years later, someone else did
another matter. 5 or 10 years later, someone else did another
meta analysis and still holds up.
This is a, this is an established phenomenon of the

(43:16):
human body does. And just remember that in this
paradigm, a random number generator is picking the target
after you record your information.
And there's no communication between your information and the
random number generator, right? So that's the way I used to do
it is physiologically. And then now I've been studying

(43:36):
precognitive remote viewing, which is much more reliable,
which is funny because it's literally people drawing
pictures of what they think the future photo will look like.
And you would think that would be less reliable.
But it's more reliable as long as people are in the state of
unconditional love. So that's why we ended up using

(43:57):
that unconditional love questionnaire because after the
Loving AI project, because it turns out that it differentiates
people will who will perform well on getting the information
from the future from people who won't.
So it's like they're getting down into that cosmic
consciousness where those that intermingling happens and that
and of course you have the information there because time

(44:19):
isn't separate there. Julie, when you think about
predictive processing versus precognitive processing, given
the rise in predictive processing models, do you see
precognition as an extension of ordinary predictive mechanisms
or as something fundamentally distinct?

(44:40):
It is an extension that uses something fundamentally
distinct. So it's an extension because
current processing models are all using like machine learning
based on past data. So precognition would be, let's
use machine learning based on information that's coming from
the future, right? That's how you would tie, I'm

(45:02):
sorry, that's how you would tie precognition into a predictive
processing model or a predictiveanalytics, right?
So if you don't actually believeinformation can come from the
future, you would not do that. But for those who follow the
literature and realize that we can actually the human body is
sensitive to information from the future.
I've done experiments that suggest that systems of of

(45:22):
photons, so light, particles, waves are also informed about
information about the future. Then of course, you would create
a predictive analytic system that would tie together what we
know from the past and what we know from the future.
Why would you not do that? Right?
And so it basically, it's an extension, but it's only going

(45:45):
to be done by people who actually think it's not a waste
of time. And so that's very interesting
because the people who think that it's not a waste of time
are probably people who have hadtheir own personal experiences
of precognition. Well, those people, these
statistically looks like from mydata are going to be people who
are more often experiencing unconditional love.
So if we go ahead and tie together those things, maybe we

(46:09):
end up with predictive analyticsthat are going to help lead
towards something like World Peace.
This is You say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Yeah, it's it's it's it's it ties in closely now
consciousness with causality. I think it's a, it's a great
segue into many of your interests touch on causality,

(46:31):
what causes what across time andmind.
Do our current notions of causality need revision to
accommodate consciousness, precognition and non ordinary
temporal phenomena? Our our current conceptions with
causality need revision, period.Do they need revision to explain

(46:55):
these other things? I don't know if you mean by
consciousness, cosmic consciousness, which is sort of
how I think you're talking aboutit, not the individual like
thing that goes away during likeanaesthetic.
Causality is the story. Causality is what our conscious

(47:16):
mind has learned in the West is that the stories are about
causality. I dropped the egg, it fell on
the floor and that that's why itbroke up, right?
Causality is the story. The story is culturally created.
It's created from what we perceive.

(47:38):
Universal love is that which connects.
Notice that a bridge does not have directionality.
It connects A&B. So if we can change our idea of
causality, and I think that's a disaster because the word
causality seems like it's asymmetric, right?
One thing causes another. What you said, what causes what,

(48:00):
right? There's this desire, what causes
what? When we look at a table, we
don't say that the left side of the table causes the right side
of the table, right? If you take out one of the legs,
you could say taking out the legcaused the table to fall over.

(48:23):
You could say that, right? And so I think we need to look
at causality because that's whatwe do say.
I think we need to look at the causality more like the static
picture of the table itself. So just take the table.
What causes the left side of thetable?
Well, it just exists. It's connected.
What's what makes it a table is it's connected by the table top.

(48:45):
To the right side of the table is a table.
OK, so now things happen where we just notice again and again.
I noticed that if I don't get born, I don't die.
Like that's really solid, statistically reliable finding
no one dies who wasn't born. Does being born cause death?

(49:10):
They're related. One comes before the other,
right? That's what we know.
And so the causality is we want to tell a story about that
because we are grasping all the time and trying to control.

(49:32):
Right. And we've done a really good job
at, like, it is not insane to want to control your
environment. The environment is hostile to us
a lot. We can.
Yeah. It gets really cold.
It gets really hot. There's lightning, there's
Thunder. There's not enough food, There's
not enough water. Like, we need an understanding
of causality to to go understandthat the well is going to be

(49:53):
full after a rain, and that's when we should go get water,
right? I mean, like, that's great.
We need that. We're in physical bodies.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
I'm saying if we want to understand the nature of the
universe and ourselves as mystical beings or as as related
to consciousness in the cosmic consciousness sense, we would do

(50:13):
well to realize that that's the story that allows us to survive
in physical bodies. But that's not a rule.
Causality is not a rule of anything but physicality.
So it's not even a rule of information.
And our minds deal with information all the time.
And so that's why these things like precognition, that's an

(50:33):
informational experience. That's like informational time
travel. You're receiving information
from the future. You're not receiving an object,
you're not receiving energy. You're seeing information from
the future. Information does not play by the
same rules as the physical world.
And so that's what we got to getinto our heads.
So one bit of information does not 'cause another bit of

(50:57):
information, but we link them together because we want to be
in, because we live in the physical world and it helps us
there, but our nature is not physical.
When you look at this relationship between time and
mind, how do you views on time shape your understanding of the

(51:19):
mind body problem? I wish I knew the answer to
that. The the reason I don't know the
answer to that is probably the answer to that.
So the reason I don't know the reason I don't know the answer
to that is because it has shapedall at once without me noticing

(51:42):
it, my view of the mind body problem.
Why has it shaped all at once? Because my experience, my, my
view of and, and at this point, my experience of time is that it
is an all at once phenomenon, kind of like a landscape.
So I must have this dream when Iwas a kid, I was like 11, I was

(52:04):
worried about nuclear war because it was during the Cold
War in the 80s. And I, and after the stream, I
was never worried about nuclear war.
And in this dream, I was in a room and there was either a
chair or a desk. I think it was a chair.
That's all that was in the room.And a voice, like a guide voice
said to me, OK, time is like a room.

(52:28):
If you're afraid of nuclear war,you just have to know that it
could be there in the future andwhere it is in the room and you
can avoid it. You can walk around it just like
that chair essentially. And I woke up and I was like,
oh, OK, cool. So we just have to know where in
the possibility space an event that we want to avoid is and we

(52:52):
can walk around it. That's the feeling that I never
felt afraid of nuclear war again, even though like that's
an interesting leap because it'snot like the voice said, and we
know where it is regardless. So I don't see the mind body

(53:12):
problem as a problem. It's a problem for us.
It's a problem for us understanding if we insist that
who we are, our physical beings separate from each other and
that's really our our essence. Yes, my body is separate from
your body. Yes, I have a body.
Yes, when I die, I'll be dead. And when I was born, I was born.

(53:33):
But who I am is not my body, right?
I'm in my body. I love my body.
I'm in my body. I celebrate my body.
I like when my body's healthy, Ifeel sad when my body's not.

(53:53):
But there's no problem there because information is not the
same as the physical world. Information, it forms the
physical world. You know, this thing I'm calling
universal love, this, this, that, which connects, that's
information. I mean, when you connect to
things, that's information. So these little bridges that
create everything, there's no problem there.

(54:20):
So I don't think that. So I don't think that my view of
time has shaped it as much as like I, I, I can't tell a good
story of the causality there. And I'm not good with causality.
I can't tell a story of causality there.
But what's true is I see time inthis way and therefore I don't
see the mind body problem as a problem.
I think the mind body problem isonly a problem for materialists

(54:41):
who believe that like the first thing is matter.
And from that everything comes. I think like that is the least
conservative view of reality that there is.
And I think as a scientist, you have to be very conservative and
you have to go back to Descartesand say, all I really know is
that I have experience. And I don't even know why.

(55:02):
All I know is that experience is, is happening that, you know,
experiencing is happening. Therefore experience is
happening. And then from that, like maybe
there's a chair here because I hear it and I, my experience is
like in Rap God and stuff. And so it just doesn't make any
sense to me to start with the physical world because that's

(55:25):
the physical world must be an inference from the story that
you're being told. Why would you start from the
inference? Yeah, if if you could redesign
the science of consciousness from the ground up.
What core? Principle.
The science of Yeah, core principle.
Don't study the science of consciousness.
Study the science of unconsciousness.

(55:46):
There's like we're studying the tip of the iceberg.
Study all the other stuff. Like what?
What the hell? Yeah.
And I mean, that brings us into if we, if we're going to go deep
into this iceberg and try and goas as far down as possible,
something that you studied that's quite fascinating are non
ordinary phenomena. And you know, in a sense it's
it's on the edge of mainstream science that it's it's on the

(56:07):
edge of what mainstream science tends to entertain or is willing
to entertain. How should philosophers and
scientists responsibly integrateanomalous phenomena into serious
discourse without collapsing into pseudoscience or relativism
where certain people take it toofar?
Or do you think some people takeit too far?

(56:28):
Or how do we do this in a respectable, responsible manner?
Well, the first question every scientist should ask themselves
or philosopher, anyone who's interested in this field and, or
interested in like debunking thefield or interested in or drawn
to the field, or they hate the field, but they're sort of drawn
to it or whatever. There's all these combinations

(56:49):
of ways you can relate to this field.
First question to ask is what did you, what are you scared of
personally? Are you scared when you feel
ashamed? If like you kind of think it's
fascinating, but you don't want to be foolish.
You don't want other people to laugh at you or what are you
afraid of? What it when you're saying
you're doing something responsibly, are you talking

(57:09):
about responsibly for your career or like what do you think
that other people will like? It's do you think you have so
much power in the world that if you say maybe there's something
to this, that other people were like, Oh no, maybe there's
something to it. Like the fantasy that scientists
and philosophers have that they have any power in the world over
what people think is ridiculous.I mean, like, you know, Stranger

(57:32):
things has way more power than you do.
So like stop it. Like the scientists and
philosopher, especially philosophers, but I mean, both
science and whatever, so slow academia so slow.
They're going to study this 20 years after everyone's else.
Like is like, yeah, OK, dumb, Which is the same thing that

(57:52):
happened with like, oh, exercisecan make you your mood feel
better. That was, you know, when I in
the 80s, that was an old wives tale.
Like how can moving your body help your mind?
There's no way. It's ridiculous.
And so whatever, I mean, I don'tcare.

(58:13):
I like, like, I just I'm done with pleasing the world of
academia. It's too slow that human, human
survival is on the line. If we don't start recognizing
the value of all of our capacities and that they are
real and that we can use them toactually help us thrive, we're

(58:35):
duped. I mean, this is when we need
those capacities. So I'm sorry it's too slow.
So like, get over your bad self or get out of the way.
So that's my message. I think even the skeptics, even
the people who are skeptical of it, I think there's often,
there's still this intuitive curiosity as you just mentioned.
And, and, and with that intuition comes the epistemology

(58:57):
that you speak about. So you often integrate intuition
into reasoning frameworks. How do you conceptualize
intuition? Is it unconscious computation,
embodied inference, or somethingcompletely different?
Yeah, into it. So there's amazing people that
have devoted their lives to intuition and I sort of use what
they say. So he's like Gerd

(59:22):
Gerdenspensburg ever. I can't pronounce his last name.
He said next long 'cause I totally, you should not use
that. You should edit that out.
But anyway, Gerd is a fantastic example of someone who just is
beautiful observer of and integrator of intuition into
trying to help decision makers do what they're doing.
That's fantastic. So putting that aside, I am

(59:48):
taking from those who study intuition as their discipline.
I'm taking intuition as an umbrella category for what this
what this unconscious processingdoes to help us solve solve
problems. And then the the solution to the
problem appears in our minds. And then we're like, oh, OK,

(01:00:11):
we'll do this. And then we can have expert
intuition, which is a form of intuition.
You do something long enough andnow you can solve problems much
easier and you can point in directions much more easily and
accurately because you just haveall this unconscious information
that's supporting, supporting you.
Now you can have creative intuition, the way to sort of

(01:00:35):
put yourself in a place where you'll get the song lyrics or
you'll get the result of this. There's almost like expert
intuition. I'm just kind of expanding on
that. And you could have intuition
that comes from other sources like precognition, telepathy,
clairvoyance, mediumship. The mainstream world thinks that
that's scary to talk about, or that's not OK to talk about, or

(01:00:58):
you're being irresponsible, But like, whatever.
There's plenty of evidence that it's real by other scientists
who are not considered part of the mainstream world simply
because they do rigorous research in this other area.
So I consider all of these humancapacities exceptional,

(01:01:19):
exceptional capacities, but someof them exceptional performer.
They're using whatever they can to solve a problem.
When you have special forces folks learning how to use remote
viewing to try to figure out where someone might be in a
building that they have to invade tomorrow and they've got
no intelligence on, maybe they're using their unconscious

(01:01:42):
and expert intuition. Maybe they're using psychic
information. Who cares?
Because guess what? It works, right?
And so it's like, like embracingwhat is scary to people about
embracing all of who we are and what we can do and asking the

(01:02:03):
question of what that really is.What is scary about just asking
the question. Like I've had people say, don't
even ask the question. It'll ruin your career.
And I'm like, so like the deal with science is you get to ask
questions, even if they're unpopular, even if you're scared
that it's going to give you somespooky answer, like ask it
rigorously, use all your training, ask it rigorously,

(01:02:27):
learn about the field and and find out what you find out.
So when I started studying, can I give you an example or did you
have another question? I got excited example.
OK, when I started, when the KaiDickens from the Telepathy Tapes
called me up and said, look, I know you study exceptional
experiences. We're really interested in

(01:02:47):
talking with you about. Could we introduce you to some
non speaking autistic people? Find out like, is this telepathy
thing real? Like, you know, she's always
trying to find out as a documentarian, she's always
trying to find out what's the real story here, right?
She was already working with Diane Hennessy Powell.
So but she wanted a different read on it.

(01:03:08):
And so I looked at that and I thought, well, I would do this
differently. You know, I would, I would do a
protocol differently. Every scientist has their like,
oh, I'm going to do it this way,I'm going to do it that way.
So I would do it differently. I would try to make sure there's
no what's called sensory leakage.
So if you want to really prove that something's telepathic,

(01:03:29):
ideally the best way to do that is you have people in separate
rooms or separate buildings. In other words, you don't want
to worry about like, did they, did someone breathe differently
and that gave someone a cue or did someone see something or
like under their breath? They said, yeah, who knows?
Like you just don't want to worry about that.
You want to just get people far enough away where that's just
not going to happen. Right.

(01:03:51):
And so we ended up having the experience, myself and my Co
investigator, Jeff Tarrant. Doctor Jeff Tarrant, we were
working on Zoom with a student getting ready for our in person
trials. And the person who's really
working with a student, Maria Welch, was the one who's

(01:04:14):
actually sitting with the students.
And I don't know if you're familiar with autistic non
speakers from the telephony tapes, but they use letter
boards often to communicate. So this student was old enough
to actually use a a keyboard, had graduated to a keyboard.
So he's keying in, you know, hisresponses.
And so we asked him, would you like to try to read the mind of

(01:04:37):
one of the researchers? And he's like, yes, which one?
He said, Jeff, Jeff is in Oregon.
He didn't know this, but Jeff isin Oregon at the time.
And so he reads the mind of Jeff.
And I don't want to go into any more details because it's
probably going to end up, maybe it's going to end up in the
movie or something. And I'm going to keep that
surprise for the movie, but that's just one example of how

(01:05:03):
telepathic these students are. And yet we have to be so
careful. And I, and then this points back
to my question, what are you afraid of?
So I'm just going to answer my own question.
We have to be so careful becausethere is a very real fear there.
Once you realize, oh, something has been unmasked, like the

(01:05:24):
filter has been removed. These students have some of
these students with whom we've worked have this clear capacity
to receive that information thatother people apparently are
suppressing or not getting or whatever.
And you kind of can't believe it.
And you and you kind of like at first it's just like, OK, it's

(01:05:50):
not real. And then you think about all the
ways that this could be fraudulent and and that
eventually when you see it enough and you have enough
controls, you go, OK, this is real.
And, you know, I'm a person who works in this field and I'm
like, still like, OK, I still have to go through all the
things, right? Oh, right.
So this is really real because I'm trained in this very

(01:06:11):
mainstream way that says like, Ican't be real.
So but that's good, you know, keeps up the rigor.
And then I realized why the fearexists is because it is real.
And some part of us knows that this is real, that there's this
connection between each of us that we can't control, that is a
little bit trickster like, and that's terrifying.

(01:06:41):
And so that's what people are scared of.
And so how we can do it responsibly and ethically is to
point out that this is somethinganyone can do.
And, and the non speakers are showing us how, but we, we
don't, we, we need to not fetishize non speakers or

(01:07:03):
whatever we need to do is look at the nature of what
information is and how it, how it can move in, in the mind as
different from in physical reality.
So and then of course being veryethical about it.
Yes, yeah, of course. You mentioned that with the
Telepathy tapes and your link with that.

(01:07:25):
Was that story the way you guys got involved in the 1st place or
was there more to it? Or how did that relationship
begin? Oh.
Kai called up and I mean, she had read about my work online
because I I'd probably very wellknown for my precognition work
in the world of science. And so I because I speak to

(01:07:45):
mainstream scientists as well asnon mainstream scientists, I
sort of try to bridge those worlds.
And so that's probably why she called.
And I said, you know, I never thought of working with non
speakers before, but I work withexceptional performers.
And from what I hear on her podcast, I had heard of her
podcast and binged it. These are exceptional

(01:08:07):
performers. And so yeah, I want to find out
what's going on. Yes, please.
And so I ended up because I said, she said, well, but what
do you want your title? Because I started, I first
started as a contractor and thenI'm like, I don't want to do
this. I want to volunteer because I
want to do science and I want toget grants for it.
And that is a different thing. And she's like, great.
And we'll document the science instead of, you know, paying you

(01:08:30):
to help figure out where we should go.
And so, but I made-up the name Human potential Research Lead.
So that was cool. But then what I did is on my own
with with my nonprofit with somehelp, you know, in terms of
introductions from Kai found funding for the research and

(01:08:53):
we're continuing to seek fundingfor 2026.
We have a whole supporting non speakers campaign that I'd like
to talk about. We're doing this experiment with
transcranial direct current stimulation to determine if that
can help these students. They have a lot of OCD motor
issues. Maybe we can we have some
indications, early indications that maybe we can use very, very

(01:09:16):
low current brain stimulation toreduce those motor movements and
help increase their capacity to communicate.
So anyway, if anyone wants to give us money for that, you
should. So did that answer your?
Question. Well, yeah, I think.
And it also opens up the door toyour current passion and why
you're in this at the moment, because it's something you're

(01:09:37):
very passionate about. What is and it's you've stayed
and it's kept you there. So anything about that you want
to mention, anything about that you want to talk about and what
keeps you? Yes, yeah.
Well, the thing I haven't said so earlier when you said, you
know, has anything changed your world view And I was like, no,
that's not really true. Obviously my world view has

(01:10:00):
shifted with the data as I startto discover them, and my world
view has shifted again since I've met non speakers Before
that, it started working with non speakers.
Before that I thought, you know,the psychic ability stuff is
powerful, but it's only so accurate.

(01:10:20):
It's really hard to get at. There's no way to really get at
it. Unconditional love really helps.
That's true. But you know, I was kind of
thinking it, it's so far from what it if there's no way to be
a healthy human being and also have this kind of access, I
still think that it's really hard for non speakers to operate

(01:10:41):
in the world. They have difficulty, but they
often have apraxia, which is an ability to which is an inability
to to control your body in the way that you want it to be.
And that applies to their speechas well.
But they have this, the ones that I've been working with have

(01:11:03):
this wisdom, they have this connection to wisdom.
And it just, to me, it just so highlights the connection to
wisdom that we can all have and can move towards if we had a
culture like the non speakers have this culture.
And that's what keeps me around.And that's what actually made me
want to. I started writing my book the
week after Kai called me to say,Hey, we want you to get involved

(01:11:25):
with Telepathy Tapes. And I had all I got in that book
first was this. And the book is called Have a
Nice Disclosure. And all I got was the table of
contents, literally like the chapter titles and then the
section titles. And I was like, OK, good.
Now have to write the book and Istill don't know what it's

(01:11:47):
about. So, so but I I sat down and
started writing the the the bookis what came out and it is my
favorite book I've written. It has the most of everything
that I've wanted to say and the least of anything I didn't want
to say. I have any book that I've
written and it's a very short book, but a lot of the wisdom in
there, I think comes from the culture that I see with the non

(01:12:09):
speakers and what they call the hill, which is their name for
where they could they have the experience of connecting
telepathically. And now I have the experience of
seeing them connect telepathically, which blew me
away. So this is where the roots are

(01:12:30):
intermingled like they like theythat's that's where that culture
lives. And if they, if we could create
a culture that supported that and in each other, I feel like
we would have, it's just like supported access, supported the
experience of accessing universal love so that we're
feeling more unconditional love.That's where I think the non

(01:12:53):
speakers are taking us if we listen to them like so, so
there's a, there's a section in the, in the book called love
revolution. And I really think that's where
the physics of love and, and where extraordinary capacities
and all of these and even AI canactually take us into a love
revolution where of course companies wouldn't create

(01:13:19):
anything that harms people. Once they realize something
harms, harms people, obviously they would change it because
they understand like making money isn't actually the goal
that we have enough resources toto have a world in which people
are loved and we have enough resources to solve the mental

(01:13:44):
illness that creates autocracy. And so that's the future.
So I do think that the non speakers are really taking us
into the future. And that's what has me hooked.
And that's really what wrote thebook is that is that those
learnings about that relationship as well as my own
discovery and remembrance of my own disclosure of my own

(01:14:09):
experience being in a gifted students class in 7th grade
where I was clearly being testedfor psychic capacities.
I was being followed tons of cognitive testing and weird
sessions. I don't remember with counselor
that I dreaded and then follow up surveillance.

(01:14:30):
And so I write about that in thebook too, as an example of this
is what we do when we don't understand something.
We study it in kind of a messed up way because we're coming from
fear. And I do not blame any of the
people who who did all that to me and my, my fellow students.

(01:14:55):
But there are people who are doing that to autistic non
speakers, you know, as we speak to try to get AT, get AT and
harness their capacities. And that's not OK without, you
know, consent, informed consent from their parents and from the
students and a sense from the students.

(01:15:17):
It's not OK. And so I really would like to be
part of changing that and and realizing that we can learn from
non speakers how to access thesecapacities.
We don't have to unfairly make their lives more traumatic than
they already are by having thesedifferent bodies and these

(01:15:38):
different capacities. So.
Yeah, I think I, I haven't read the book yet.
I'm looking forward to reading it, but I read the Forward by
Ross Coltart talking about that exact experience.
It must be quite fascinating because you've got a, a dad
who's a physicist, a mom who's atherapist.
You go into neuroscience almost bridging these two gaps, kinda
in a sense. And then you're able to look

(01:16:01):
back now with, with a very, veryscientific slash philosophical
mind and understand so many things that's happened in the
past. What about working at Telepathy
tapes led to that exact moment where you're like, OK, have a
nice disclosure. What is the exact link?
And what, what really gave you this idea to name it that?

(01:16:21):
Oh, interesting. I think, again, I'm not into
causality, but I think I'm goingto tell the story that that the
first time that we worked, I worked with a student, I was so
neurotic. I was like, OK, I want to, I
want to, I'm on, I was on Zoom. I want to talk to the parent,

(01:16:42):
get the parent on Zoom. All right, is it OK if I record
you talking to you about this? OK, Matt, let's let's record us
talking to your student about this, about what we're going to
do, OK. And then every time asking
permission, even though we had consent forms, etcetera.
We went through all that making sure the student knew the

(01:17:02):
information and gave a sense, but still, like, we're
recording. Is that OK?
We're recording. This is what I'm thinking.
Just just incredible transparency.
And I was like, why am I so neurotic about this?
And that's I started thinking, well, yeah, of course.
Like here I am studying, essentially studying what was

(01:17:22):
studied in me. And I'm wanting to do it in a
way that doesn't abuse or hurt or neglect and that in fact
uplifts these students. And then I was like, holy cow.
And then I started looking back at the things and just, and
that's, you know, that happened.Another moment that happened was

(01:17:45):
before that when I before that when I applied for a federal job
at in the US government and I was called by a recruiter
several days after I had filed aFOIA Freedom of Information Act
request for any files related tothe gifted program I was in.

(01:18:09):
And the recruiter called me a few days later and told me they
wanted me for this particular job.
And then after that very short period of time, all that the
timeline is actually written in my journal.
So I put it in the book, but I forget it right now.
Very short period of time I hearfrom FOIA saying do you still
want to Basically, do you still want us to process this request?

(01:18:32):
And I say maybe that's a maybe they want me not to have any
outside standing FOIA request ifI'm applying for a job with a
final government. OK, so I said no, fine, drop it.
3 minutes later I get a call from my recruiter at the final
government who says, oh, maybe we'd like you for this job, but

(01:18:53):
you passed the first interview that I'm like, I'm sorry.
So, so that also made me start looking like there is a
relation, like, you know, even though I'm not one for
causality, those things seem so related in time,
uncharacteristically related in time.
So what's the deal? And that was a moment.

(01:19:20):
It's it's, it's kind of freaky. It's like, what is what is going
on? And.
Yeah, sorry. No.
So you continue. Oh, so have a nice disclosure
comes from this idea that disclosure comes from inside.
Like I, I want to twist this on its head.
We have this idea that there's this big powerful government or
a big powerful corporation or whatever that holds all the

(01:19:42):
information and we just pray that they will release it at
some point and disclose what I mean, it's just like gives them
all the power. It's like, guess what?
That's false. We each have the power to
disclose what's true in our lives and we can actually do it
in a way that's nice. We can do it in a way that's
full of love. We can do it in a way that loves

(01:20:03):
ourselves and loves others. We can do it in a responsible
way is and this is what I experienced, you know, for me,
I'm in a place where I don't place blame on anyone.
Everyone was doing the best theycan always, even if they are
intentions were evil. For some reason, the universe

(01:20:25):
had created evil intentions inside of them.
That's unfortunate. It hurt a lot of people, but we
can do better. So if we're going to have
disclosure, let's claim it in ourselves.
So have a nice disclosure is about that.

(01:20:45):
It's a, it's a, it's a beautifultitle, I think.
Judy, when you look back, how old were you when this happened?
7th grade so I was 12. OK.
And, and at this point, were youalready making journals and were
you documented as a? Oh, yeah, yeah.
No. So I had started, they, they,
they started cognitive testing me in like kindergarten.

(01:21:06):
And when I, you know, was it like the eighth grade level and
all the subjects, they were like, OK, we're going to watch
this one. I mean, very clearly they would
pull me out, you know, I didn't have to go to recess if I didn't
want to because I could computercode or whatever, you know.
So like all the, all that stuff they do when they're like this
one, there's something going on,you know, I didn't mind that.

(01:21:28):
Like that was nice. It's the other stuff.
It's like it's the surveillance and lack of information and
having a drink, a pink drink andtelling.
You very, it's very strange. I mean, what, what really, what
were they trying to do? Do you think what I mean?

(01:21:49):
Obviously getting information, trying to understand, trying to
harness. What were they doing to test it?
Were they? As a scientist today, when you
look back, do you think it was actually good scientific
techniques? I think what I really think is
that they were following children of people who had been

(01:22:11):
exposed to radiation or childrenthemselves who've been exposed
to radiation, or they were exposing children to radiation.
I doubt the latter, that it's possible, like maybe very small
doses. I don't know.
I think they were trying to study the range of I know this

(01:22:31):
sounds like a comic book, but there are reasons that I
described in the book that I think this it sounds like a
comic book like Peter was bittenby a radioactive spider and now
he's Spider Man. It's ridiculous.
But I do think there's evidence from what I've uncovered about
the program that they were for some reason there was a lot of
pressure to try to understand non non ionizing radiation and

(01:22:55):
ionizing radiation and the effects on human cognition and
performance. I don't know why I give some
theories in the book and they'reall just complete speculation.
I think some of it was decent science for the day because I
don't remember what they were doing with me in that room.
I can't speak to that science. The follow up surveillance, some

(01:23:19):
of it was really good. Like I'm I'm impressed by it,
freaked out by it, but impressedby it.
I think people just try to do something that they think is
important and they think that they're, the consequences are
too high for them to be transparent about it.

(01:23:41):
There must have been some reallyhigh consequences if they're
transparent about it for them tokeep it classified or to keep
it, I don't know if it was classified by the government or,
or just proprietarily by some contractor.
Yeah, I, I, people do all sorts of things for reasons where

(01:24:05):
they. This is part of the problem of
causality actually, is people believe the story, like if we
don't do this, then this will happen.
It's like actually, you don't know that, you know that you
believe that. You're afraid that if we don't
do this, this other thing will happen.
But the universe plays all sortsof tricks with things that show

(01:24:27):
up and change the way things go.So when someone's telling you
this is a really good like psyops resilience piece of
advice at the end of our little podcast, but when people tell
you if you don't do XY will happen, they're trying to
manipulate you. Now they may be trying to
manipulate you in some positive direction, like a parent trying

(01:24:50):
to tell you if you don't brush your teeth, you're going to get
cavities. But they're trying to control
your behavior. So 'cause that's the claims of
causality are can be very manipulative.
And so one way to do it differently is to say, you know
what? There's a correlation between
people who don't brush their teeth and people who have their

(01:25:11):
teeth fall out. And it's a high correlation.
Like you don't brush your teeth,like your teeth might fall out.
Like you could, you know, that you might get infected and fall
out. Then maybe that's a correlation.
Let's see what happens with yourteeth.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's

(01:25:32):
it's been a fascinating conversation.
Thank you so much for your time.I think let's end off on a on a
very human positive note. Your work spans well-being AI,
love, time, meaning so much. What kind of future do you hope
for humanity intellectually, spiritually, and
technologically? Oh, it's very simple.
I hope that we, more of us can access universal love so that we

(01:25:59):
feel unconditional love, and then everything will fall out of
that. So better behavior will fall out
of that naturally, even though magically nothing needs to
change. It changes everything.
Well, then I think that's a beautiful way to end.
Julia, Thank you so much, and I hope you have a nice disclosure.

(01:26:20):
We're getting all podcasts to say that.
Yes, have a nice disclosure. Tenant, thank you so much for
that. But on a serious note, thank you
very much. It was a pleasure to host you
and keep up the great work. Very diverse, very unique and
very intriguing. I must say I've I've enjoyed
reading your work and appreciateyour time well.
Thank you. You've really asked wonderful

(01:26:41):
questions and you were so tolerant of my, of my, of my
radical maneuvers. Yeah, it was, it was wonderful.
I mean, I love doing this. This is a pleasure for me and
it's a privilege. So thank you so much.
That's. Awesome take.
Care, Julia.

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Can Consciousness Access the Future? Precognition, Time & the Transcendental Mind | Julia Mossbridge

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