September 25, 2023 • 39 mins
Picture sitting across from your partner, delving into the depths of their past relationships. How would that conversation go? My friend Zack and I take this tricky topic head-on in a riveting discussion about retroactive jealousy and long-term marriage. We unlock the doors to Zack's marriage journey of 17 years, dissect the trials, and uncover the triumphs.
Ever had moments where you're teetering between jealousy and trust in a relationship? Well, Zack and I don't shy away from this emotional terrain either. We demystify the complexities of jealousy, trust, and relationships - from the loneliness epidemic among American men to the effects of social media. And let's not forget about the age-old wisdom and principles that can mitigate jealousy and bridge trust issues.
But we don't stop there. We also dig into the art of compromise and the significance of balance in relationships. You'll hear firsthand how Zack's marital experiences have taught him the value of seeing things from his partner's perspective. No stone goes unturned as we also discuss open communication, vulnerability, and the role of forgiveness in restoring trust. So grab your headphones, and brace yourself for an enlightening journey into the intricacies of relationships. This is PART 1 of a 2-Part Interview.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The older I get and the more I know who I am and
what I stand for, the smaller mysocial circle gets and as I
learn more about people, thevarnish fades.
But my guest today is someonevery special and dear to my
heart.
His name is Zachary, or Zach,byman.
This is someone I have knownfor over 20 years.
I consider him one of myclosest and longtime friends,
(00:22):
perhaps my only friend.
That spans through severaldecades and chapters of my life
and though we went in differentdirections after high school,
our values keep intersecting tobring us back together.
Since that time, after highschool, he has gone into the
workforce, got married, starteda family and created a career
for himself.
He's got an amazing wife withwhom he has 12 beautiful,
(00:44):
amazing kids.
They are his world.
He considers himself a child ofGod first, a husband, a father
and a family man second.
So let's give.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Zach, a warm welcome.
You're listening to MindManners, hosted by licensed
psychotherapist Albert Nguyen.
Albert helps his clientsovercome past trauma, change
their mindset and acceleratetheir personal and professional
development.
This podcast covers a widerange of mental health and
self-development topics, witheach episode offering an
(01:15):
actionable step towards a betteryou.
If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Now one of the main reasons why I wanted to
interview you was because yougot blessed with 12 kids to the
same wife, and that is nothingshort of a miracle, because I
don't see that often anymore.
I don't see people the samepartner for a very long time.
So how long have you beenmarried?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
The last month was 17 years.
17 years, congrats.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Thank you.
That is amazing.
How has your perspective onmarriage evolved over the years
and what would you say are thekey ingredients to a successful,
fulfilling marriage?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I don't feel like my perspective on marriage has
changed as far as fundamentalsgo.
Still, the commitment that youmake forever, it's intended to
be forever.
It always was forever.
And for myself I can rememberever since I was a kid, I wanted
to be a dad.
That was one of my biggestthings.
Obviously, I think this hasbeen stated that my faith is
(02:15):
first my family and myself,second and all else after that.
So for myself, I wanted to be adad.
Of course, I wanted a lifepartner forever.
As far as maybe in ways thatit's changed in some ways, I
feel like maybe when I first metmy wife, we started to date and
then considered marriage, gotmarried.
There were definitely times whenI didn't feel like she was my
(02:38):
best friend, which is hard tosay, but it would probably be.
I'd say like this is crazy.
But 14 years into it, before Ireally realized how I knew she
was the most important person inmy life, I started for myself,
but the attachment and howstrong that was, how much I
needed it, didn't really hit mehard until we were supposed to
(03:01):
go to the gym I've all thinktogether one night and she was
feeling not feeling well and Icame home and I was jacked up,
ready to go to the gym and shetells me I just don't feel good
tonight, I'm not going to go.
And I was just deflated, justcompletely deflated.
I didn't even want to go to thegym anymore.
And it was like, like I said, Iknew she was the most important
person in my life.
I knew that she was myeverything.
(03:23):
I'd rather die than lose her.
But such a silly little thing isnot feeling well enough to go
to the gym with me.
That night Just deflated me andit just was very eye-opening to
me that it was huge, way biggerthan I don't want to say just
my wife, but you know it waslike she'd become.
I didn't even want to go to thegym without her.
I didn't like that's big.
(03:44):
It's not to say that I didn'tknow that before.
It was just, I guess, more ofan example of when it hit me or
the way it hit, because we'dgone on little vacations
together, obviously many timesbefore that gone hiking and
camping and stuff, and they'rethe best vacations, the best
trips, the best getaways of mylifetime To date.
Obviously, the next one will beeven better and the next one
(04:07):
better than that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
But I think, especially with things with
social media, these days a lotof people only see like the
happy moments, like theirfiltered life, and people don't
really see the thought of workthat has to be done to get from
point A to point B.
Hearing that you've beenmarried for this long, I can
only imagine all the things thatyou have gone through, and I
(04:29):
really hope that we do a deepdive in some of these things.
I mean, I do have some verytough questions that I know that
we're going to be tacklingWithin the past few years that
men's mental health has beenresurfacing and it's been made
more known to people that it'sso important that we as men need
(04:51):
to talk more about some of thethings that we struggle with,
because there is definitely someunique things that, from a
men's perspective, that is notcommonly spoken about.
So one of those themes is thatI see a lot with the men that I
work with is that they strugglewith retroactive jealousy, this
feeling of being threatened bytheir partner's past
relationships and sexualexperiences, and it's not often
(05:14):
talked about openly and societycan make it difficult for a lot
of men to want to talk aboutthis.
There's a lot of shame andstigma around this and, as if
we're crazy to even care.
People may even see this asunhealthy.
Now, it's a shame that this isthe case.
Some studies actually evenpoint out that there seems to be
(05:34):
a strong correlation between ahappier marriage and fewer sex
partners, meaning people whohave had sex with fewer people
seem to be more satisfied.
After they tied a knot In theDuterno of marriage and family,
they found that both men andwomen tend to see high sexual
experience peers as lessdesirable for marriage.
So I guess I just want to hearyour thoughts and experience
(05:57):
with retroactive jealousy.
Does it matter?
Does it impact desirability andconnection?
And if it does, how did youwork through it?
What is that like when youfirst met your wife?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I know we're just jumping straight in.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, go right into it.
I guess in a lot of ways I'vealways been well, everyone's
different, but for myself, mydifference was that I was raised
completely different than mylife was.
So, my world was a nuclearfamily with a father and mother
and siblings.
I have six siblings and myparents still married today, so
we had the whole dynamic of afull family unit and my wife was
(06:37):
raised by her mom, singlemother.
She has three sisters and herexperience in life was a little
more multi-bus, a little bitmore uncertain A lot of people
in and out, kind of blendedfamilies, if you will, but not
always married families,sometimes friends living with
them and stuff.
So a whole different life.
But I, for whatever reason,growing up I didn't want to
(07:00):
marry someone like myself, asmuch as that, as much as I can
describe it.
So I was raised very, verystrict, really structured life
and so I had no experiencereally in that realm, as to say,
with other partners.
My wife, being raised completelydifferent, had been in
relationship prior to mine andfor some reason in my life
(07:23):
growing up I never wantedsomeone that was, as that was,
inexperienced, like myself.
I don't know why, I can'texplain or describe it, maybe
you could probably tell me moreabout me than I know about me as
far as that goes.
But I didn't want someone thatwas inexperienced and I was
inexperienced.
Maybe that's why.
So, when I met my wife and westarted dating, she was more in
(07:47):
line with what I wanted andthankfully she has a heart and a
soul like mine in the way thatshe was a person of faith, even
if she was and been raised witha lot of faith.
That makes sense.
So I was definitely curious forquite a while when we were
dating, especially, I wascurious and I would question and
kind of needle her about herpast, and it took me quite a
(08:09):
while to understand that thepast and especially for a lot of
us it didn't need to stay there.
And so I did.
I actually did damage, beingnosy and questioning about it,
and so it took me a while torealize that that was a whole
different life, that was a wholedifferent person and I need to
let it go, forget about it,because we were building
(08:30):
something new and beautiful andwe were building our life and I
just had to just let it go.
It was, it was not worth it.
So does it matter?
The question is it doesn'tmatter.
Yeah, because if you as a manor woman, whichever, if you get
over it and can't let it go, youwill destroy that.
You'll destroy everyrelationship you have if you
can't let the past go because,yeah, it's a new life.
(08:51):
Every single time you, a newrelationship starts, it's
supposed to be its own thing,its own living thing.
It is like the, the Bible spaceand, I'm sure, several
religions and and texts aboutmarriage and life together.
You become one you in the Bibleis faced with you, the mother
and father, and become one withyour spouse.
So you definitely have to getto that point where you are
(09:14):
understanding and realizing thatyou're building your life and
your past life have nothing todo with.
I think that jealousy itself canbe good for sure.
If there's a little bit of thatpoint that your woman's all
dressed up and looking good andyou're a little bit jealous
because feuds are looking like,that's not a bad thing because
it's going to make you step up alittle more.
Maybe you puck the chest out alittle bit and you're ready to
(09:35):
go because that's your woman, noone else messing with her.
That's fine.
You're looking especially good.
You got this, you're justsitting just right, or the shirt
and maybe jeans are justgetting good and your wife
noticing girls looking and she'sgetting jealous.
So that's a good thing becauseshe's ready to go, she's ready
to make sure that she's the onlyone used so.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I like what you said, that it's about starting
something new and trying to getto that place to accept that
this is the past and trying toleave things in the past and
recognizing that this creationthat you're starting with your
significant other or yourgirlfriend or partner or
boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, it's a living thing.
Yeah, because you have yourlife and she has her life and
together you're creating a newlife.
It's, yeah, it's completely new.
It's a whole new living thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I think that's beautiful.
So we obviously can't talkabout retroactive jealousy
without talking about everydayjealousy, which you sort of
tapped in a little bit.
So there are several studiesindicating that cheating is more
common than we like to admit.
In fact, one study found thatwith the ease and access of
(10:46):
technology these days to getconnected with others,
temptations and sneaking aroundhas have become a lot easier.
A study found that infidelityrates among women are actually
on the rise and, I believe, by40% in the last 20 years.
For women, it's an importanttopic and issue to talk about
Trust, setting boundaries,values and honesty.
Dating and relationship havevastly changed over the years
(11:09):
because of social media andonline dating, and more and more
studies are now showing thatthere is a loneliness epidemic
among American men.
More and more young men aresingle and the popular theory
about this is because men aregetting the needs met through
porn.
And another theory is that bothgenders are perceiving each
(11:29):
other as less desirable andwe're exposed to images of about
a thousand in the matter ofminutes now, and I think the
young men today are more andmore intimidated by women.
I think it's also because a lotof men are afraid to be
criticized as misogynists.
The women's movements andwomen's rights have definitely
(11:49):
improved over the years and forsome reason it just seems like
men's mental health and men'sissues have just sort of been
pushed to the back burner.
But I guess the question hereis from personal experience Are
there any old age, timelesswisdom and principles of
relationships Do you think thatare important to share, that can
mitigate jealousy and trustissues and ultimately we
(12:12):
establish and revive and evensave the one sacred institution
of marriage and love?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yeah, so this question you kind of alluded to
it.
It's it's a hot button, hottopic and, yes, it definitely
Triggers some people.
So you said something realquick that I don't think I
Touched on, but you talked aboutwomen's rights becoming much
better and that is like met, aswomen have gained more far as
(12:42):
rights and Position.
To me it's not weird to seeMen's side of it in a way
getting worse, like you statedto.
You just talk about it here.
Actually, we see that there'sloneliness epidemic and so
there's a balance.
There's always got to bebalanced and a give and take in
everything.
So if we go back I don't knowwhat it would be 20, 30, 40
(13:03):
years to where men ruled thehouse and women had no rights.
That's, we're out of balance,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
So today we're coming into aposition where women have more
rights.
If we go too far, we get pointwhere men have no rights and
that's not good.
So of course we're gonna havean epidemic, men, if women have
too much and I know that peoplecould get offended by that Well,
(13:24):
you can't have too much.
Yeah, you can, because in thepast, when it was the other way,
where men had everything ofthem had nothing.
It was bad for women.
So you, there has to be abalance always and we have to
get to a point where we canRealize that and accept that as
a society and as cultures, thatthere's a give and take, that
you can't have all the rightsand I can't have all the rights.
We have to share.
At some point we have to share.
(13:45):
So as far as age old, timelesswisdom, like I said, let's
figure a hot button topic.
The biggest one I see is,thankfully for myself, I was
able to experience as a childgrowing up, and that's the
nuclear family unit other fatherchildren I know people want to
bash on that because you havethe freedom to love who you want
, but how you want.
You do absolutely.
(14:05):
But you have to realize andunderstand that there will be
sacrifice.
No matter what you do in life,there will be a cost.
There's always cost for whatyou want and if what you want is
Contrary to what science andwhat facts prove to be the best
way to Raise a family, create afamily, build a family, there's
(14:26):
a cost to it and you'll have tofind some way to mitigate it or
pay for it.
There's no other way around.
You can't change facts.
We have to find a way toFulfill what nature needs for
nature or proper.
I've seen a lot more pop upthrough social media about
groups of Men that are creatingkind of like men's group or
they'll have men's retreats andmen's I don't know what else.
(14:47):
Tom of Henry programs campswhere men go to kind of
rediscover themselves, to figureout why their life is failing
or their marriage is failing orstill.
On the blank it's a big dealand I know it is because it's
easy to lose sight of and thedaily grind that there's so much
emphasis put on on Success,building your legacy, build your
(15:09):
fortune, build your this andthat and and, rather than build
a life.
People are now mistakenlythinking that the building this
legacy and this company and thisfortune is fulfillment.
It's not.
It will be to a point untilyou're alone and miserable.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Let's go back to talking more about your own
personal experience, because Ifeel like there's just so much
that we can talk about yourmarriage, because 17 years is a
long time.
So can you describe a moment inyour marriage when you've had
to confront a significantdifference of opinion or value
your partner?
How did you navigate thatsituation and what did it teach
(15:48):
you about?
About compromise andunderstanding?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
for me.
I was raised, like I said, in apretty structured household to
when I spent a lot of years atthe beginning of our marriage
pretending that the messy housedidn't bother me.
I would just kind of, ohwhatever, it's fine.
Whatever it's fine, I'm justhappy to be home with you, it's
fine.
It wasn't compromised and itwasn't understanding.
(16:12):
It was puppy love.
I guess the best way I couldthink to explain it and just
ignoring, trying to, yeah, justignore it and it didn't exist,
yeah, I'm home and focus on mylife.
And then, shortly after our babythose times, so, as I stayed
before, my wife was raised by asingle mom and Cleaning was way
(16:32):
down on the phone and, forinstance, it was for her, it was
come home and spend time withher daughters, just live life.
So that wasn't a bad thing,necessarily.
I think it was a good thing forme to to try to understand that
, rather than always focus onwhat, what wasn't clean or what
wasn't done, maybe refocus alittle more on the fact that
there's people here and there'sfeelings and a messy house isn't
(16:55):
the end of everything.
But I didn't communicate thisto my wife for a long time and
it did drive me nuts, because Ijust shortly relatively shortly
left home and going from a cleanhouse.
Constantly when I was a kid, ifour house wasn't clean or part
scores weren't done, I had theanswer.
Whether that was an explanationor an honest friend that was,
(17:18):
there would be an answer or areckoning.
So it was different and wefinally talked about it and when
I find the issue, I saw orlearned about her mom's Idea on
it and that was, like I said,eye-opening.
So it was just kind ofsomething we had to come through
and Figure out what wasacceptable for us in our life
(17:39):
and then, as the children came,then it's like a multiplier on
mess.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
It sounds like that conversation led to you
Understanding more about whereshe was coming from and then
sort of find a balance orcompromise that would work out
for your marriage.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, yep, and, like I said, once we start bringing
kids into the mix it it won'tbother blogging.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, and we'll definitely be talking about your
kids.
What, what role do opencommunication and vulnerability
Play in maintaining your healthyand lasting relationship?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Communication creates a vision.
You want things to run smoothlyor to work out.
You have and we go through thatwith our boys, because our two
oldest boys Teenagers and as I'msure you know from experience,
both going through it yourselfand then working with them, a
professional, as a professionalhelping teenage boys and stuff
that there's this great dividebetween between common sense and
(18:39):
what they do, because there'slike a Disconnect.
So, yes, so communication inlife huge and in marriage,
especially if you don't.
Well, I mean, it's simple, ifyou don't tell someone what you
need, they can't, you can neverget it because they don't know
it's good.
So there has to becommunication, there has to be I
feel like this I want this, Idon't want that, I need this, I
(19:02):
need that.
I don't like that.
You have to let that stuff beknown because otherwise A lot of
problems can chaos.
Yes, yeah, and you mentionedvulnerability in this.
Yeah, it's back to this reallyrelates, especially as a man.
As you spend more time Learningyour partner, you can learn how
to balance that out, becausethere are times, absolutely
(19:25):
there are times, when you needto be that Untethered,
testosterone filled anum thatyour spouse needs your wife, and
then there's times when you Bethat tender hearted shoulder,
cry on and you're listening, youknow.
Then there's times when you goout dinner that you need to be
cast over, that pulls it, careout for and let's sit down and
(19:48):
weights on our hand or foot, andthen sometimes we need to be
that Joker.
You know the guy's making afool of himself.
So you have to learn all thatstuff and that's communication.
You know when the other onestands.
Yeah, then you have to.
You just have to talk and youhave to allow yourself to be
vulnerable.
(20:09):
There's definitely times whenwhen I've had to open up to my
wife and let her inside, andit's not easy.
It's not easy because sometimesI know it's just the human
thing, but for myself as a man,sometimes I feel like what's
inside here is, and can be, sodark and it's like sometimes you
(20:29):
find a spot in there that's soblack.
You're like boy, if she sawthis, there's no way, there's no
way she'd run away screamingyeah.
And the truth is the truth mosttimes is that if you truly open
up and allow her inside, therethere becomes a bond that's so
tight, wow, that's so strong,that she wants nothing more than
to heal that part of you,because what you see as black,
(20:52):
that's evil.
She sees as a broken boy.
Then that was powerful, so thatI've been there.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I felt that there's just this part of us.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Oh, I feel like you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, there's this part of us.
I think it's hard to be seenwith some of these parts of us,
and when we allow ourselves tobe seen fully and completely,
especially with people who caresabout us, I can only imagine
how deep of a connection thatwould be if you let that guard
(21:26):
go.
Yeah, zach, what's coming upfor you right now about this?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Just a realization.
Ron's learning.
Like you messed with me theother day, spain and you were
looking forward to this dayhearing.
So my wisdom and my response toyou is not so certain.
If you stop looking, you'renever going to find it, and I
had a feeling.
I was sure that this was goingto be pretty.
I knew it was going to be good.
(21:51):
This was your suggestion ofquestions, first of all, and
then, you know, I've beenthrough some stuff.
You've been through some stuff.
We've known each other for alot of years and, yeah, at some
point it was definitely, it wasbound to get real.
And I think in that statementthere, those words that were
given to me that I'm close to,the revelation to myself to you
(22:17):
is will you go through in lifeor will you experience as a
child, there's that brokennessinside you.
There's poems and writings andbooks that get the words perfect
.
That's perfectly.
But there's one line that comesto me.
I don't know if it's a song Iheard at some point, but Lady
says if I could touch this placeor feel it, brokenness inside
(22:40):
me might start here.
Wow, it's a good line.
Yeah, it's true, you don'tuncover it.
You don't dig up that blackness, so you want to under there.
That's actually the problem.
You have to allow someone in orallow light to be exposed on it
so that you can open it and seewhat's inside there.
(23:00):
Maybe that's what I hit.
Maybe there's something in mychest that's a little bit broken
.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
That part of you needed was neglected to sound
like and you allowed someone in.
Yeah, yeah, but, zach, thankyou for sharing that, because
these are very hard questions.
Yeah, are you ready for thenext one?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, we're good.
This is like we talked about.
It needs to be done.
There's a lot here and it'sworth doing.
It needs to be done.
It doesn't matter if it's hard.
Fuck up, buttercup, go through,Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
All right, do it.
Most of my patients I have afew right now that comes to mind
, and I have to say that about80% of the men I've worked with
and the other 20%, they all haveconsidered of either cheating
or that you have done it.
It's no surprise thatinfidelity is often the root
(23:56):
cause of many relationshipsfalling apart.
To define, I guess, cheating.
For this session, I have come toaccept that this is where all
cheating takes place.
It's when the partners begin tobecome sneaky and secretive in
their interactions with othersoutside of their committed
relationship, and many of mypatients describe cheating as on
(24:17):
a spectrum of emotional andsexual, and sometimes starting
as very subtle and emotionalbefore it even becomes physical
Now.
So it's about crossing andviolating a sacred boundary or a
code in your committedrelationship.
Now, temptations are a part ofhuman nature.
I understand that.
So, speaking as a man, how havetemptations tested your
(24:42):
commitment to your relationshipand do you have any advice that
you've learned through, anywisdom and insight that you've
gained throughout the years forother men out there, yeah, I
think that well, I know foreveryone, man and women.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
But as far as that goes, I know you touched on
pornography, being probably abig contributor to the issue not
with men, well, and women both.
But I know firsthand thatpornography is extremely
damaging.
Temptations are everywhere.
And if you don't have anopen-eyed communication with
(25:21):
your partner to talk about thesethings, or an open-eyed
communication for her to come toyou and just ask her, hey, how
are things going?
Because as much as you knowyour weaknesses, she does or
should she, should she betterknow your weaknesses.
You have to have that opencommunication with her so she
understands and knows this.
Because your weaknesses, I meanthey're your weaknesses for a
(25:43):
reason.
So if it's your weakness thatyou would fall into this trap or
this sin or this unhealthyaddiction or temptation to go
Find some source of pornographyor fantasy that feels you, how
likely are you to go talk aboutthat week your weakness in the
first place, or something thatthat fills a part of you, that
(26:04):
that generally you wouldconsider to be disgusting, so
naturally wouldn't want to talkabout it.
You're ashamed of it, yes, soif you have this openness and
communication trust with eachother, she likewise will be able
to come to you and ask youabout it.
So or maybe bring it up onoccasion, thinking about it,
that thought or concern or carefor you, that she would be able
(26:25):
to ask about it.
So, as I was saying, fromexperience I know that
pornography is extremelydamaging.
I've had to deal with my wholelife.
Unfortunately, I was exposed toTo that very young, and it's
warping.
It warps our mind.
It really does.
It's extremely damaging.
It sexualizes your life, your,your views on men and women and
(26:50):
and everything's surrounding it.
To have that burden such ayoung age and make for a really
hard life, tips run out there.
I Battle it, just like the restof you.
It's the daily battle insociety today, with the
Direction and a lot of thingshead in what's acceptable,
clothing, wise, what'sacceptable and Public displays
(27:13):
of affection, pda on and on, andon billboards, posters,
advertisements, everything.
There's been a phrase or sloganforever and advertising sex
spells True, because there's acarnal side of us that that's
attracted to it.
So it's not getting easier nowfor sure.
Yeah, getting easier.
You got to find a way to battleit.
You got to find a way to fightit.
(27:34):
I don't really know the answer.
I was in a position in years agowhere I was pretty hooked on it
.
Be completely Honest, I was, Iguess, addicted pornography.
I probably looked at it almostdaily and it literally got to
the point where if I couldn'tvisualize some fantasy in my
mind, it's hard to perform andthat's scary.
(27:56):
That is really scary.
If you think about that justopenly and honestly In your
relationship and you're marriedor nice, especially where you
have spouse, that you are, it'syour job.
For them, that's a Connection ona level that's it's not even
just physical, it gets intospiritual.
I believe absolutely thatrelationship and those moments
(28:20):
get spiritual.
Yeah, and if you've gotyourself so twisted up in the
fantasy world you can't evenmake that action.
There's just no hope.
Killing it.
It's bad, it's super, super badto allow yourself into those
places and then, once you startallowing those fantasies and
that again the pornography.
Usually it's all about fantasies.
(28:41):
If you don't communicate that,you can look for it else, but as
soon as you start lookingelsewhere, you will find it and
you're gonna get lost.
Yeah, and she think that'susually where it's going to wind
up Some way.
She perform, wind up, lookingfor elsewhere.
And the craziest thing is thatI've discovered, and I've talked
to several other men about ittoo If you just open your dang
mouth and talk to her about itor just bounce about it 99 times
(29:05):
out of 100 what I've seen theyare willing to fill your
fantasies with.
They would rather be the onethat does what you want them to
do.
Then go find us somewhere elseor look it up the deal to open
your mouth.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
There's some powerful lessons here.
The common theme here isCommunication.
That's usually when the problemstarts.
Right is when we keep it asecret.
We try to fill that void withother things, and that's when we
create issues for ourselves.
We just have to talk about it.
Yeah, and that's hard, but thatis the solution.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, they can be 38 years To figure some of this out
.
I mean, there's things thatthat I wasn't able to talk about
until I was over 35 years old,literally, you know.
Just, they're so like a talkabout.
There's like this black maskinside you of something you went
through, something you've beenthrough, that is so, so damaging
(29:59):
to you that you can't, like Isaid, 35 years, 35 years.
Let someone else know what I'vebeen through, what created this
monster inside of that that Ihad just been shoving in the
closet and trying to keep closefor, like I said, 35 years in
bits.
I, yeah, communicate, talkabout it, get it out.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
So, speaking about this too, about temptations and
issues around that, we alsounderstand that trust is a very
fragile thing.
A lot of people struggle withtrust and it takes a lot of time
and effort to build and rebuild, but can quickly shatter in an
instant.
What's your process been likein years of marriage and
(30:44):
relationship when it comes tohealing, building and rebuilding
trust?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Forgiveness it's one word.
Forgiveness, one word.
But it's the hardest thing inthe world to do so.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I definitely understand that's what needs to
be done, like that's theimportant work.
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah, so what I actually wrote down here in my
notes is that forgiveness is themortar of the brick to build.
I love that.
So because, yeah, definitely itcomes back to communication
again.
You have to talk about it.
You have to talk about whatyou've done or what's been done
to you that's caused this painor that's fractured the bond,
especially when it comes torelationship in marriage
(31:26):
Generally, when there's an issuelike this that needs to be
forgiven, there's been somedamage to the relationship.
Yeah, I think the hardest Ibelieve the hardest is to say it
first, that confession, to comeout and admit that you've
screwed up.
Or sometimes it's the other wayaround.
Sometimes it's somethingthey've done Definitely.
(31:48):
I've been through that too,from both sides.
Sometimes I've found it harderto me to say you did this or you
did that and it really hurtbecause it may come back to that
.
That whole thing is being a manshowing that vulnerability that
you don't want to.
I think for a lot of guys I'mno exception for me to say that,
(32:10):
whatever I mean.
For example, last night or theother day you're over here doing
this or with these people and Isaid this.
Your response to me was thisthat really hurt as a man.
I think that's something hardfor us to come to terms with.
That.
You would actually tell yourwife that she said something
that hurt you.
A lot of people are like reallyyour wife hurt your feelings
(32:31):
really.
But it's real, absolutely yes,it's real.
There could be and there havebeen myself.
I can admit there have been acouple of times where I've
expressed something myself andstated it, and I mean sometimes
even it's just perceivedresponse to it.
I come to find out later thatthat wasn't the intended
(32:53):
response.
It was the way I perceived it.
Again, I miscommunication.
I opened up about something.
There was a response to it andthe response was not improper.
But the way I perceived it inthe moment was it hit me wrong
and it hurt To be able to bestrong enough or vulnerable
(33:14):
enough to say that that hurt canbe a lot.
It seems silly, but it's true.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
No, I think that's a challenge for a lot of people.
It is a vulnerability.
It takes a certain level ofhumility to do that and that's
tough.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
It is especially in the sense that, being a listener
, I know for a fact a lot aboutthis, especially as you're given
a profession.
I like to joke around a littlebit.
This is a little bit kind ofcheeky, but I'm just a miller.
I just fix machines.
This isn't really my forte, butyou have to listen and the
(33:51):
listening is like I said, I fixmachines, I don't listen to
people, I listen to machines.
But that's not true.
I've been with my seven yearstwelve kids, so I have to learn
to listen to the point, but I'mnot.
I won't find it to be good at it.
You have to listen, you have tolisten, and a lot of times
communication is all aboutlistening.
If someone's trying to talk toyou or communicate with you, you
(34:13):
better shut up.
Like they say.
You got one mouth and two ears.
You better use my mouth, andthat's it.
I know if I'm not going tolisten to her, she's unlikely to
listen to me.
And that's where it all starts.
If you can talk or she's goingto talk, better listen.
So commitment.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So 17 years, that's no joke.
So commitment obviously comeswith a price that many aren't
afraid of.
What is that price to acommitted relationship, and is
that price worth it?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
The wording, the quality of the price, I think is
not right.
Is your your putting?
It's almost like you're tryingto monetize, not monetize, like
you're relating it to a monetarytransaction.
I don't know, it just seems itjust makes you feel cheap.
I don't think there's a price.
I don't think it's like it's agiven take.
(35:06):
You know it's like likebartering.
It's like, yeah, therelationship isn't, isn't the
cost.
Cost is is what you pay for thestore.
Cost is is driving a car for 20years.
Cost is is where and there onsomething, the relationship is
the office building.
It doesn't wear out, it doesn't.
(35:28):
It's not like a devaluation Now, like price or monetary
transaction.
Yeah, cost is something cost ofof you operating your vehicle
for 20 years.
You have to put fuel in it andnew parts and all these things.
That has a cost to it.
But a relationship there's nocost.
(35:49):
You're building somethingthat's going to invest.
Yeah, I mean, like I said, it'slike bartering or like having a
tab or an IOU, but you neverplan on collecting it anyway,
because it's always.
It's just a constant give andtake.
As much as you give them thatyou could even think of them
owing you, for they've givenright back to you.
So it's just this constant,constant exchange of time and
(36:12):
value that never if you do itright and you're both committed
to never get out it just grows.
It's like counting yourblessings.
You write them all down on apaper.
It's good.
It's good in your life versusbad in your life.
When you get done, inevitablythere's four pages to good and
one page bad.
It's not like you're trying todo a list of who does more than
the other one.
It's like you're always tryingto do more.
(36:34):
You're always trying to givemore and be more and do more.
I think there was a statementor a phrase for a long time it's
50-50.
And recently, within the lastcouple of years, there's kind of
a new take on it where it'slike no, it's not 50-50.
Because if you're only giving50%, that's not good enough.
It's 100-100.
You have to give 100%, she hasto give 100%.
(36:56):
If you don't give all of you,there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I like that one a lot .
Yeah, that makes much moresense.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And then also your fears and insecurities.
You have to talk about that.
You have to bear those out.
Again, it comes back tocommunication because your fears
and insecurities grow and ifyou project those into a
relationship it's sabotage fromthe beginning.
We have chickens right now andthis is kind of a weird way to
(37:25):
relate it to it but if yourchickens can and will, if the
circumstances are right, they'lleat their own eggs.
And so here you are, feedingyour chickens and then they eat
their own eggs.
Get nothing out of the evening.
If you want to fix that, whatyou have to do is get a whole
new flock and get rid of the oldone, and fears in the
(37:45):
relationship are just ascounterproductive as if you were
to get a whole new flock ofchickens that don't eat eggs and
then take one of the oldchickens and bring it into that
flock so it can teach all therest of the chickens to eat eggs
Completely counterproductive.
If you go and form a newrelationship but you bring your
old luggage or your old baggageinto that relationship your
(38:06):
fears and insecurities you'redoing the same thing.
You'll just continuously poisonone relationship after another.
Ever that go of the past.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I really don't think there's a price to marriage.
I think it's quite the opposite.
Everything about marriage,everything about commitment, is
an investment, an investment inthe future.
It really is, and you have togive.
There's also a saying in lifethat if you want to receive, you
must first give.
You can't give to receive.
You must give for the sake ofgiving.
(38:38):
And I think that plays rightinto relationships too.
You have to Obviously, you gointo a relationship because you
get married, because you want alife partner, you want a
soulmate.
But you can't just get asoulmate.
You have to give your soul, andas much as that makes sense,
you have to give yourself tothat point.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert
Nguyen.
We hope you found value in thisepisode.
If you'd like to work withAlbert one-on-one, visit
optimindcounselingcom to learnmore about his private practice.
Looking to join a community oflike-minded individuals, watch
Mind Manners podcast communityon Facebook and join our group
(39:20):
to connect with others on theirwellness journeys.
Finally, if you haven't alreadydone so, please write us a
five-star review on ApplePodcast and let us know you're
enjoying the show.
The older I get and the more I know who I am and
what I stand for, the smaller mysocial circle gets and as I
learn more about people, thevarnish fades.
But my guest today is someonevery special and dear to my
heart.
His name is Zachary, or Zach,byman.
This is someone I have knownfor over 20 years.
I consider him one of myclosest and longtime friends,
(00:22):
perhaps my only friend.
That spans through severaldecades and chapters of my life
and though we went in differentdirections after high school,
our values keep intersecting tobring us back together.
Since that time, after highschool, he has gone into the
workforce, got married, starteda family and created a career
for himself.
He's got an amazing wife withwhom he has 12 beautiful,
(00:44):
amazing kids.
They are his world.
He considers himself a child ofGod first, a husband, a father
and a family man second.
So let's give.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Zach, a warm welcome.
You're listening to MindManners, hosted by licensed
psychotherapist Albert Nguyen.
Albert helps his clientsovercome past trauma, change
their mindset and acceleratetheir personal and professional
development.
This podcast covers a widerange of mental health and
self-development topics, witheach episode offering an
(01:15):
actionable step towards a betteryou.
If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Now one of the main reasons why I wanted to
interview you was because yougot blessed with 12 kids to the
same wife, and that is nothingshort of a miracle, because I
don't see that often anymore.
I don't see people the samepartner for a very long time.
So how long have you beenmarried?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
The last month was 17 years.
17 years, congrats.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Thank you.
That is amazing.
How has your perspective onmarriage evolved over the years
and what would you say are thekey ingredients to a successful,
fulfilling marriage?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I don't feel like my perspective on marriage has
changed as far as fundamentalsgo.
Still, the commitment that youmake forever, it's intended to
be forever.
It always was forever.
And for myself I can rememberever since I was a kid, I wanted
to be a dad.
That was one of my biggestthings.
Obviously, I think this hasbeen stated that my faith is
(02:15):
first my family and myself,second and all else after that.
So for myself, I wanted to be adad.
Of course, I wanted a lifepartner forever.
As far as maybe in ways thatit's changed in some ways, I
feel like maybe when I first metmy wife, we started to date and
then considered marriage, gotmarried.
There were definitely times whenI didn't feel like she was my
(02:38):
best friend, which is hard tosay, but it would probably be.
I'd say like this is crazy.
But 14 years into it, before Ireally realized how I knew she
was the most important person inmy life, I started for myself,
but the attachment and howstrong that was, how much I
needed it, didn't really hit mehard until we were supposed to
(03:01):
go to the gym I've all thinktogether one night and she was
feeling not feeling well and Icame home and I was jacked up,
ready to go to the gym and shetells me I just don't feel good
tonight, I'm not going to go.
And I was just deflated, justcompletely deflated.
I didn't even want to go to thegym anymore.
And it was like, like I said, Iknew she was the most important
person in my life.
I knew that she was myeverything.
(03:23):
I'd rather die than lose her.
But such a silly little thing isnot feeling well enough to go
to the gym with me.
That night Just deflated me andit just was very eye-opening to
me that it was huge, way biggerthan I don't want to say just
my wife, but you know it waslike she'd become.
I didn't even want to go to thegym without her.
I didn't like that's big.
(03:44):
It's not to say that I didn'tknow that before.
It was just, I guess, more ofan example of when it hit me or
the way it hit, because we'dgone on little vacations
together, obviously many timesbefore that gone hiking and
camping and stuff, and they'rethe best vacations, the best
trips, the best getaways of mylifetime To date.
Obviously, the next one will beeven better and the next one
(04:07):
better than that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
But I think, especially with things with
social media, these days a lotof people only see like the
happy moments, like theirfiltered life, and people don't
really see the thought of workthat has to be done to get from
point A to point B.
Hearing that you've beenmarried for this long, I can
only imagine all the things thatyou have gone through, and I
(04:29):
really hope that we do a deepdive in some of these things.
I mean, I do have some verytough questions that I know that
we're going to be tacklingWithin the past few years that
men's mental health has beenresurfacing and it's been made
more known to people that it'sso important that we as men need
(04:51):
to talk more about some of thethings that we struggle with,
because there is definitely someunique things that, from a
men's perspective, that is notcommonly spoken about.
So one of those themes is thatI see a lot with the men that I
work with is that they strugglewith retroactive jealousy, this
feeling of being threatened bytheir partner's past
relationships and sexualexperiences, and it's not often
(05:14):
talked about openly and societycan make it difficult for a lot
of men to want to talk aboutthis.
There's a lot of shame andstigma around this and, as if
we're crazy to even care.
People may even see this asunhealthy.
Now, it's a shame that this isthe case.
Some studies actually evenpoint out that there seems to be
(05:34):
a strong correlation between ahappier marriage and fewer sex
partners, meaning people whohave had sex with fewer people
seem to be more satisfied.
After they tied a knot In theDuterno of marriage and family,
they found that both men andwomen tend to see high sexual
experience peers as lessdesirable for marriage.
So I guess I just want to hearyour thoughts and experience
(05:57):
with retroactive jealousy.
Does it matter?
Does it impact desirability andconnection?
And if it does, how did youwork through it?
What is that like when youfirst met your wife?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I know we're just jumping straight in.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, go right into it.
I guess in a lot of ways I'vealways been well, everyone's
different, but for myself, mydifference was that I was raised
completely different than mylife was.
So, my world was a nuclearfamily with a father and mother
and siblings.
I have six siblings and myparents still married today, so
we had the whole dynamic of afull family unit and my wife was
(06:37):
raised by her mom, singlemother.
She has three sisters and herexperience in life was a little
more multi-bus, a little bitmore uncertain A lot of people
in and out, kind of blendedfamilies, if you will, but not
always married families,sometimes friends living with
them and stuff.
So a whole different life.
But I, for whatever reason,growing up I didn't want to
(07:00):
marry someone like myself, asmuch as that, as much as I can
describe it.
So I was raised very, verystrict, really structured life
and so I had no experiencereally in that realm, as to say,
with other partners.
My wife, being raised completelydifferent, had been in
relationship prior to mine andfor some reason in my life
(07:23):
growing up I never wantedsomeone that was, as that was,
inexperienced, like myself.
I don't know why, I can'texplain or describe it, maybe
you could probably tell me moreabout me than I know about me as
far as that goes.
But I didn't want someone thatwas inexperienced and I was
inexperienced.
Maybe that's why.
So, when I met my wife and westarted dating, she was more in
(07:47):
line with what I wanted andthankfully she has a heart and a
soul like mine in the way thatshe was a person of faith, even
if she was and been raised witha lot of faith.
That makes sense.
So I was definitely curious forquite a while when we were
dating, especially, I wascurious and I would question and
kind of needle her about herpast, and it took me quite a
(08:09):
while to understand that thepast and especially for a lot of
us it didn't need to stay there.
And so I did.
I actually did damage, beingnosy and questioning about it,
and so it took me a while torealize that that was a whole
different life, that was a wholedifferent person and I need to
let it go, forget about it,because we were building
(08:30):
something new and beautiful andwe were building our life and I
just had to just let it go.
It was, it was not worth it.
So does it matter?
The question is it doesn'tmatter.
Yeah, because if you as a manor woman, whichever, if you get
over it and can't let it go, youwill destroy that.
You'll destroy everyrelationship you have if you
can't let the past go because,yeah, it's a new life.
(08:51):
Every single time you, a newrelationship starts, it's
supposed to be its own thing,its own living thing.
It is like the, the Bible spaceand, I'm sure, several
religions and and texts aboutmarriage and life together.
You become one you in the Bibleis faced with you, the mother
and father, and become one withyour spouse.
So you definitely have to getto that point where you are
(09:14):
understanding and realizing thatyou're building your life and
your past life have nothing todo with.
I think that jealousy itself canbe good for sure.
If there's a little bit of thatpoint that your woman's all
dressed up and looking good andyou're a little bit jealous
because feuds are looking like,that's not a bad thing because
it's going to make you step up alittle more.
Maybe you puck the chest out alittle bit and you're ready to
(09:35):
go because that's your woman, noone else messing with her.
That's fine.
You're looking especially good.
You got this, you're justsitting just right, or the shirt
and maybe jeans are justgetting good and your wife
noticing girls looking and she'sgetting jealous.
So that's a good thing becauseshe's ready to go, she's ready
to make sure that she's the onlyone used so.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I like what you said, that it's about starting
something new and trying to getto that place to accept that
this is the past and trying toleave things in the past and
recognizing that this creationthat you're starting with your
significant other or yourgirlfriend or partner or
boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, it's a living thing.
Yeah, because you have yourlife and she has her life and
together you're creating a newlife.
It's, yeah, it's completely new.
It's a whole new living thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I think that's beautiful.
So we obviously can't talkabout retroactive jealousy
without talking about everydayjealousy, which you sort of
tapped in a little bit.
So there are several studiesindicating that cheating is more
common than we like to admit.
In fact, one study found thatwith the ease and access of
(10:46):
technology these days to getconnected with others,
temptations and sneaking aroundhas have become a lot easier.
A study found that infidelityrates among women are actually
on the rise and, I believe, by40% in the last 20 years.
For women, it's an importanttopic and issue to talk about
Trust, setting boundaries,values and honesty.
Dating and relationship havevastly changed over the years
(11:09):
because of social media andonline dating, and more and more
studies are now showing thatthere is a loneliness epidemic
among American men.
More and more young men aresingle and the popular theory
about this is because men aregetting the needs met through
porn.
And another theory is that bothgenders are perceiving each
(11:29):
other as less desirable andwe're exposed to images of about
a thousand in the matter ofminutes now, and I think the
young men today are more andmore intimidated by women.
I think it's also because a lotof men are afraid to be
criticized as misogynists.
The women's movements andwomen's rights have definitely
(11:49):
improved over the years and forsome reason it just seems like
men's mental health and men'sissues have just sort of been
pushed to the back burner.
But I guess the question hereis from personal experience Are
there any old age, timelesswisdom and principles of
relationships Do you think thatare important to share, that can
mitigate jealousy and trustissues and ultimately we
(12:12):
establish and revive and evensave the one sacred institution
of marriage and love?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yeah, so this question you kind of alluded to
it.
It's it's a hot button, hottopic and, yes, it definitely
Triggers some people.
So you said something realquick that I don't think I
Touched on, but you talked aboutwomen's rights becoming much
better and that is like met, aswomen have gained more far as
(12:42):
rights and Position.
To me it's not weird to seeMen's side of it in a way
getting worse, like you statedto.
You just talk about it here.
Actually, we see that there'sloneliness epidemic and so
there's a balance.
There's always got to bebalanced and a give and take in
everything.
So if we go back I don't knowwhat it would be 20, 30, 40
(13:03):
years to where men ruled thehouse and women had no rights.
That's, we're out of balance,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
So today we're coming into aposition where women have more
rights.
If we go too far, we get pointwhere men have no rights and
that's not good.
So of course we're gonna havean epidemic, men, if women have
too much and I know that peoplecould get offended by that Well,
(13:24):
you can't have too much.
Yeah, you can, because in thepast, when it was the other way,
where men had everything ofthem had nothing.
It was bad for women.
So you, there has to be abalance always and we have to
get to a point where we canRealize that and accept that as
a society and as cultures, thatthere's a give and take, that
you can't have all the rightsand I can't have all the rights.
We have to share.
At some point we have to share.
(13:45):
So as far as age old, timelesswisdom, like I said, let's
figure a hot button topic.
The biggest one I see is,thankfully for myself, I was
able to experience as a childgrowing up, and that's the
nuclear family unit other fatherchildren I know people want to
bash on that because you havethe freedom to love who you want
, but how you want.
You do absolutely.
(14:05):
But you have to realize andunderstand that there will be
sacrifice.
No matter what you do in life,there will be a cost.
There's always cost for whatyou want and if what you want is
Contrary to what science andwhat facts prove to be the best
way to Raise a family, create afamily, build a family, there's
(14:26):
a cost to it and you'll have tofind some way to mitigate it or
pay for it.
There's no other way around.
You can't change facts.
We have to find a way toFulfill what nature needs for
nature or proper.
I've seen a lot more pop upthrough social media about
groups of Men that are creatingkind of like men's group or
they'll have men's retreats andmen's I don't know what else.
(14:47):
Tom of Henry programs campswhere men go to kind of
rediscover themselves, to figureout why their life is failing
or their marriage is failing orstill.
On the blank it's a big dealand I know it is because it's
easy to lose sight of and thedaily grind that there's so much
emphasis put on on Success,building your legacy, build your
(15:09):
fortune, build your this andthat and and, rather than build
a life.
People are now mistakenlythinking that the building this
legacy and this company and thisfortune is fulfillment.
It's not.
It will be to a point untilyou're alone and miserable.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Let's go back to talking more about your own
personal experience, because Ifeel like there's just so much
that we can talk about yourmarriage, because 17 years is a
long time.
So can you describe a moment inyour marriage when you've had
to confront a significantdifference of opinion or value
your partner?
How did you navigate thatsituation and what did it teach
(15:48):
you about?
About compromise andunderstanding?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
for me.
I was raised, like I said, in apretty structured household to
when I spent a lot of years atthe beginning of our marriage
pretending that the messy housedidn't bother me.
I would just kind of, ohwhatever, it's fine.
Whatever it's fine, I'm justhappy to be home with you, it's
fine.
It wasn't compromised and itwasn't understanding.
(16:12):
It was puppy love.
I guess the best way I couldthink to explain it and just
ignoring, trying to, yeah, justignore it and it didn't exist,
yeah, I'm home and focus on mylife.
And then, shortly after our babythose times, so, as I stayed
before, my wife was raised by asingle mom and Cleaning was way
(16:32):
down on the phone and, forinstance, it was for her, it was
come home and spend time withher daughters, just live life.
So that wasn't a bad thing,necessarily.
I think it was a good thing forme to to try to understand that
, rather than always focus onwhat, what wasn't clean or what
wasn't done, maybe refocus alittle more on the fact that
there's people here and there'sfeelings and a messy house isn't
(16:55):
the end of everything.
But I didn't communicate thisto my wife for a long time and
it did drive me nuts, because Ijust shortly relatively shortly
left home and going from a cleanhouse.
Constantly when I was a kid, ifour house wasn't clean or part
scores weren't done, I had theanswer.
Whether that was an explanationor an honest friend that was,
(17:18):
there would be an answer or areckoning.
So it was different and wefinally talked about it and when
I find the issue, I saw orlearned about her mom's Idea on
it and that was, like I said,eye-opening.
So it was just kind ofsomething we had to come through
and Figure out what wasacceptable for us in our life
(17:39):
and then, as the children came,then it's like a multiplier on
mess.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
It sounds like that conversation led to you
Understanding more about whereshe was coming from and then
sort of find a balance orcompromise that would work out
for your marriage.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, yep, and, like I said, once we start bringing
kids into the mix it it won'tbother blogging.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, and we'll definitely be talking about your
kids.
What, what role do opencommunication and vulnerability
Play in maintaining your healthyand lasting relationship?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Communication creates a vision.
You want things to run smoothlyor to work out.
You have and we go through thatwith our boys, because our two
oldest boys Teenagers and as I'msure you know from experience,
both going through it yourselfand then working with them, a
professional, as a professionalhelping teenage boys and stuff
that there's this great dividebetween between common sense and
(18:39):
what they do, because there'slike a Disconnect.
So, yes, so communication inlife huge and in marriage,
especially if you don't.
Well, I mean, it's simple, ifyou don't tell someone what you
need, they can't, you can neverget it because they don't know
it's good.
So there has to becommunication, there has to be I
feel like this I want this, Idon't want that, I need this, I
(19:02):
need that.
I don't like that.
You have to let that stuff beknown because otherwise A lot of
problems can chaos.
Yes, yeah, and you mentionedvulnerability in this.
Yeah, it's back to this reallyrelates, especially as a man.
As you spend more time Learningyour partner, you can learn how
to balance that out, becausethere are times, absolutely
(19:25):
there are times, when you needto be that Untethered,
testosterone filled anum thatyour spouse needs your wife, and
then there's times when you Bethat tender hearted shoulder,
cry on and you're listening, youknow.
Then there's times when you goout dinner that you need to be
cast over, that pulls it, careout for and let's sit down and
(19:48):
weights on our hand or foot, andthen sometimes we need to be
that Joker.
You know the guy's making afool of himself.
So you have to learn all thatstuff and that's communication.
You know when the other onestands.
Yeah, then you have to.
You just have to talk and youhave to allow yourself to be
vulnerable.
(20:09):
There's definitely times whenwhen I've had to open up to my
wife and let her inside, andit's not easy.
It's not easy because sometimesI know it's just the human
thing, but for myself as a man,sometimes I feel like what's
inside here is, and can be, sodark and it's like sometimes you
(20:29):
find a spot in there that's soblack.
You're like boy, if she sawthis, there's no way, there's no
way she'd run away screamingyeah.
And the truth is the truth mosttimes is that if you truly open
up and allow her inside, therethere becomes a bond that's so
tight, wow, that's so strong,that she wants nothing more than
to heal that part of you,because what you see as black,
(20:52):
that's evil.
She sees as a broken boy.
Then that was powerful, so thatI've been there.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I felt that there's just this part of us.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Oh, I feel like you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, there's this part of us.
I think it's hard to be seenwith some of these parts of us,
and when we allow ourselves tobe seen fully and completely,
especially with people who caresabout us, I can only imagine
how deep of a connection thatwould be if you let that guard
(21:26):
go.
Yeah, zach, what's coming upfor you right now about this?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Just a realization.
Ron's learning.
Like you messed with me theother day, spain and you were
looking forward to this dayhearing.
So my wisdom and my response toyou is not so certain.
If you stop looking, you'renever going to find it, and I
had a feeling.
I was sure that this was goingto be pretty.
I knew it was going to be good.
(21:51):
This was your suggestion ofquestions, first of all, and
then, you know, I've beenthrough some stuff.
You've been through some stuff.
We've known each other for alot of years and, yeah, at some
point it was definitely, it wasbound to get real.
And I think in that statementthere, those words that were
given to me that I'm close to,the revelation to myself to you
(22:17):
is will you go through in lifeor will you experience as a
child, there's that brokennessinside you.
There's poems and writings andbooks that get the words perfect
.
That's perfectly.
But there's one line that comesto me.
I don't know if it's a song Iheard at some point, but Lady
says if I could touch this placeor feel it, brokenness inside
(22:40):
me might start here.
Wow, it's a good line.
Yeah, it's true, you don'tuncover it.
You don't dig up that blackness, so you want to under there.
That's actually the problem.
You have to allow someone in orallow light to be exposed on it
so that you can open it and seewhat's inside there.
(23:00):
Maybe that's what I hit.
Maybe there's something in mychest that's a little bit broken
.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
That part of you needed was neglected to sound
like and you allowed someone in.
Yeah, yeah, but, zach, thankyou for sharing that, because
these are very hard questions.
Yeah, are you ready for thenext one?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, we're good.
This is like we talked about.
It needs to be done.
There's a lot here and it'sworth doing.
It needs to be done.
It doesn't matter if it's hard.
Fuck up, buttercup, go through,Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
All right, do it.
Most of my patients I have afew right now that comes to mind
, and I have to say that about80% of the men I've worked with
and the other 20%, they all haveconsidered of either cheating
or that you have done it.
It's no surprise thatinfidelity is often the root
(23:56):
cause of many relationshipsfalling apart.
To define, I guess, cheating.
For this session, I have come toaccept that this is where all
cheating takes place.
It's when the partners begin tobecome sneaky and secretive in
their interactions with othersoutside of their committed
relationship, and many of mypatients describe cheating as on
(24:17):
a spectrum of emotional andsexual, and sometimes starting
as very subtle and emotionalbefore it even becomes physical
Now.
So it's about crossing andviolating a sacred boundary or a
code in your committedrelationship.
Now, temptations are a part ofhuman nature.
I understand that.
So, speaking as a man, how havetemptations tested your
(24:42):
commitment to your relationshipand do you have any advice that
you've learned through, anywisdom and insight that you've
gained throughout the years forother men out there, yeah, I
think that well, I know foreveryone, man and women.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
But as far as that goes, I know you touched on
pornography, being probably abig contributor to the issue not
with men, well, and women both.
But I know firsthand thatpornography is extremely
damaging.
Temptations are everywhere.
And if you don't have anopen-eyed communication with
(25:21):
your partner to talk about thesethings, or an open-eyed
communication for her to come toyou and just ask her, hey, how
are things going?
Because as much as you knowyour weaknesses, she does or
should she, should she betterknow your weaknesses.
You have to have that opencommunication with her so she
understands and knows this.
Because your weaknesses, I meanthey're your weaknesses for a
(25:43):
reason.
So if it's your weakness thatyou would fall into this trap or
this sin or this unhealthyaddiction or temptation to go
Find some source of pornographyor fantasy that feels you, how
likely are you to go talk aboutthat week your weakness in the
first place, or something thatthat fills a part of you, that
(26:04):
that generally you wouldconsider to be disgusting, so
naturally wouldn't want to talkabout it.
You're ashamed of it, yes, soif you have this openness and
communication trust with eachother, she likewise will be able
to come to you and ask youabout it.
So or maybe bring it up onoccasion, thinking about it,
that thought or concern or carefor you, that she would be able
(26:25):
to ask about it.
So, as I was saying, fromexperience I know that
pornography is extremelydamaging.
I've had to deal with my wholelife.
Unfortunately, I was exposed toTo that very young, and it's
warping.
It warps our mind.
It really does.
It's extremely damaging.
It sexualizes your life, your,your views on men and women and
(26:50):
and everything's surrounding it.
To have that burden such ayoung age and make for a really
hard life, tips run out there.
I Battle it, just like the restof you.
It's the daily battle insociety today, with the
Direction and a lot of thingshead in what's acceptable,
clothing, wise, what'sacceptable and Public displays
(27:13):
of affection, pda on and on, andon billboards, posters,
advertisements, everything.
There's been a phrase or sloganforever and advertising sex
spells True, because there's acarnal side of us that that's
attracted to it.
So it's not getting easier nowfor sure.
Yeah, getting easier.
You got to find a way to battleit.
You got to find a way to fightit.
(27:34):
I don't really know the answer.
I was in a position in years agowhere I was pretty hooked on it
.
Be completely Honest, I was, Iguess, addicted pornography.
I probably looked at it almostdaily and it literally got to
the point where if I couldn'tvisualize some fantasy in my
mind, it's hard to perform andthat's scary.
(27:56):
That is really scary.
If you think about that justopenly and honestly In your
relationship and you're marriedor nice, especially where you
have spouse, that you are, it'syour job.
For them, that's a Connection ona level that's it's not even
just physical, it gets intospiritual.
I believe absolutely thatrelationship and those moments
(28:20):
get spiritual.
Yeah, and if you've gotyourself so twisted up in the
fantasy world you can't evenmake that action.
There's just no hope.
Killing it.
It's bad, it's super, super badto allow yourself into those
places and then, once you startallowing those fantasies and
that again the pornography.
Usually it's all about fantasies.
(28:41):
If you don't communicate that,you can look for it else, but as
soon as you start lookingelsewhere, you will find it and
you're gonna get lost.
Yeah, and she think that'susually where it's going to wind
up Some way.
She perform, wind up, lookingfor elsewhere.
And the craziest thing is thatI've discovered, and I've talked
to several other men about ittoo If you just open your dang
mouth and talk to her about itor just bounce about it 99 times
(29:05):
out of 100 what I've seen theyare willing to fill your
fantasies with.
They would rather be the onethat does what you want them to
do.
Then go find us somewhere elseor look it up the deal to open
your mouth.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
There's some powerful lessons here.
The common theme here isCommunication.
That's usually when the problemstarts.
Right is when we keep it asecret.
We try to fill that void withother things, and that's when we
create issues for ourselves.
We just have to talk about it.
Yeah, and that's hard, but thatis the solution.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, they can be 38 years To figure some of this out
.
I mean, there's things thatthat I wasn't able to talk about
until I was over 35 years old,literally, you know.
Just, they're so like a talkabout.
There's like this black maskinside you of something you went
through, something you've beenthrough, that is so, so damaging
(29:59):
to you that you can't, like Isaid, 35 years, 35 years.
Let someone else know what I'vebeen through, what created this
monster inside of that that Ihad just been shoving in the
closet and trying to keep closefor, like I said, 35 years in
bits.
I, yeah, communicate, talkabout it, get it out.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
So, speaking about this too, about temptations and
issues around that, we alsounderstand that trust is a very
fragile thing.
A lot of people struggle withtrust and it takes a lot of time
and effort to build and rebuild, but can quickly shatter in an
instant.
What's your process been likein years of marriage and
(30:44):
relationship when it comes tohealing, building and rebuilding
trust?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Forgiveness it's one word.
Forgiveness, one word.
But it's the hardest thing inthe world to do so.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I definitely understand that's what needs to
be done, like that's theimportant work.
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah, so what I actually wrote down here in my
notes is that forgiveness is themortar of the brick to build.
I love that.
So because, yeah, definitely itcomes back to communication
again.
You have to talk about it.
You have to talk about whatyou've done or what's been done
to you that's caused this painor that's fractured the bond,
especially when it comes torelationship in marriage
(31:26):
Generally, when there's an issuelike this that needs to be
forgiven, there's been somedamage to the relationship.
Yeah, I think the hardest Ibelieve the hardest is to say it
first, that confession, to comeout and admit that you've
screwed up.
Or sometimes it's the other wayaround.
Sometimes it's somethingthey've done Definitely.
(31:48):
I've been through that too,from both sides.
Sometimes I've found it harderto me to say you did this or you
did that and it really hurtbecause it may come back to that
.
That whole thing is being a manshowing that vulnerability that
you don't want to.
I think for a lot of guys I'mno exception for me to say that,
(32:10):
whatever I mean.
For example, last night or theother day you're over here doing
this or with these people and Isaid this.
Your response to me was thisthat really hurt as a man.
I think that's something hardfor us to come to terms with.
That.
You would actually tell yourwife that she said something
that hurt you.
A lot of people are like reallyyour wife hurt your feelings
(32:31):
really.
But it's real, absolutely yes,it's real.
There could be and there havebeen myself.
I can admit there have been acouple of times where I've
expressed something myself andstated it, and I mean sometimes
even it's just perceivedresponse to it.
I come to find out later thatthat wasn't the intended
(32:53):
response.
It was the way I perceived it.
Again, I miscommunication.
I opened up about something.
There was a response to it andthe response was not improper.
But the way I perceived it inthe moment was it hit me wrong
and it hurt To be able to bestrong enough or vulnerable
(33:14):
enough to say that that hurt canbe a lot.
It seems silly, but it's true.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
No, I think that's a challenge for a lot of people.
It is a vulnerability.
It takes a certain level ofhumility to do that and that's
tough.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
It is especially in the sense that, being a listener
, I know for a fact a lot aboutthis, especially as you're given
a profession.
I like to joke around a littlebit.
This is a little bit kind ofcheeky, but I'm just a miller.
I just fix machines.
This isn't really my forte, butyou have to listen and the
(33:51):
listening is like I said, I fixmachines, I don't listen to
people, I listen to machines.
But that's not true.
I've been with my seven yearstwelve kids, so I have to learn
to listen to the point, but I'mnot.
I won't find it to be good at it.
You have to listen, you have tolisten, and a lot of times
communication is all aboutlistening.
If someone's trying to talk toyou or communicate with you, you
(34:13):
better shut up.
Like they say.
You got one mouth and two ears.
You better use my mouth, andthat's it.
I know if I'm not going tolisten to her, she's unlikely to
listen to me.
And that's where it all starts.
If you can talk or she's goingto talk, better listen.
So commitment.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So 17 years, that's no joke.
So commitment obviously comeswith a price that many aren't
afraid of.
What is that price to acommitted relationship, and is
that price worth it?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
The wording, the quality of the price, I think is
not right.
Is your your putting?
It's almost like you're tryingto monetize, not monetize, like
you're relating it to a monetarytransaction.
I don't know, it just seems itjust makes you feel cheap.
I don't think there's a price.
I don't think it's like it's agiven take.
(35:06):
You know it's like likebartering.
It's like, yeah, therelationship isn't, isn't the
cost.
Cost is is what you pay for thestore.
Cost is is driving a car for 20years.
Cost is is where and there onsomething, the relationship is
the office building.
It doesn't wear out, it doesn't.
(35:28):
It's not like a devaluation Now, like price or monetary
transaction.
Yeah, cost is something cost ofof you operating your vehicle
for 20 years.
You have to put fuel in it andnew parts and all these things.
That has a cost to it.
But a relationship there's nocost.
(35:49):
You're building somethingthat's going to invest.
Yeah, I mean, like I said, it'slike bartering or like having a
tab or an IOU, but you neverplan on collecting it anyway,
because it's always.
It's just a constant give andtake.
As much as you give them thatyou could even think of them
owing you, for they've givenright back to you.
So it's just this constant,constant exchange of time and
(36:12):
value that never if you do itright and you're both committed
to never get out it just grows.
It's like counting yourblessings.
You write them all down on apaper.
It's good.
It's good in your life versusbad in your life.
When you get done, inevitablythere's four pages to good and
one page bad.
It's not like you're trying todo a list of who does more than
the other one.
It's like you're always tryingto do more.
(36:34):
You're always trying to givemore and be more and do more.
I think there was a statementor a phrase for a long time it's
50-50.
And recently, within the lastcouple of years, there's kind of
a new take on it where it'slike no, it's not 50-50.
Because if you're only giving50%, that's not good enough.
It's 100-100.
You have to give 100%, she hasto give 100%.
(36:56):
If you don't give all of you,there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I like that one a lot .
Yeah, that makes much moresense.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And then also your fears and insecurities.
You have to talk about that.
You have to bear those out.
Again, it comes back tocommunication because your fears
and insecurities grow and ifyou project those into a
relationship it's sabotage fromthe beginning.
We have chickens right now andthis is kind of a weird way to
(37:25):
relate it to it but if yourchickens can and will, if the
circumstances are right, they'lleat their own eggs.
And so here you are, feedingyour chickens and then they eat
their own eggs.
Get nothing out of the evening.
If you want to fix that, whatyou have to do is get a whole
new flock and get rid of the oldone, and fears in the
(37:45):
relationship are just ascounterproductive as if you were
to get a whole new flock ofchickens that don't eat eggs and
then take one of the oldchickens and bring it into that
flock so it can teach all therest of the chickens to eat eggs
Completely counterproductive.
If you go and form a newrelationship but you bring your
old luggage or your old baggageinto that relationship your
(38:06):
fears and insecurities you'redoing the same thing.
You'll just continuously poisonone relationship after another.
Ever that go of the past.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I really don't think there's a price to marriage.
I think it's quite the opposite.
Everything about marriage,everything about commitment, is
an investment, an investment inthe future.
It really is, and you have togive.
There's also a saying in lifethat if you want to receive, you
must first give.
You can't give to receive.
You must give for the sake ofgiving.
(38:38):
And I think that plays rightinto relationships too.
You have to Obviously, you gointo a relationship because you
get married, because you want alife partner, you want a
soulmate.
But you can't just get asoulmate.
You have to give your soul, andas much as that makes sense,
you have to give yourself tothat point.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert
Nguyen.
We hope you found value in thisepisode.
If you'd like to work withAlbert one-on-one, visit
optimindcounselingcom to learnmore about his private practice.
Looking to join a community oflike-minded individuals, watch
Mind Manners podcast communityon Facebook and join our group
(39:20):
to connect with others on theirwellness journeys.
Finally, if you haven't alreadydone so, please write us a
five-star review on ApplePodcast and let us know you're
enjoying the show.
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