September 25, 2023 • 43 mins
"Love multiplies," Zack expressed about each child born. When the first cries of each newborn echoed in the delivery room, a tidal wave of emotions crashed over Zack Byman — he was a father once again. The journey from partner to parent is a profound one, and in this heartfelt episode, Zack takes you through the highs, the lows, and the unscripted moments of laughter that make up fatherhood. From the gripping fear of the unknown to the elation of holding my child for the first time, he shares with you not just stories, but the lessons learned about love's capacity to expand with each new addition to the family.
Balancing a bustling household and a thriving marital relationship is no small feat. He tackles the realities of daily life in a large family, where sacrifice becomes as routine as the morning alarm, and love is the thread that weaves through each interaction, multiplying rather than dividing. Zack gets personal about the push and pull between selflessness and the need for personal space, revealing how these dynamics are navigated and how we make room for what matters most—our relationships, our time, and our growth as parents.
Lastly, we confront the evolving landscape of masculinity and the emotional development of both ourselves and our children. It's a candid discussion on the pressures men face and the importance of breaking free from the mold to foster emotional complexity. By setting an example of love and vulnerability, we discuss how fathers can shape their children's expectations and understanding of manhood, and the integral conversations that need to happen during adolescence.
Join me in unpacking these nuanced aspects of modern parenting, and perhaps find a reflection of your own experiences in this episode dedicated to dads everywhere.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Mind Manners, hosted by licensed
psychotherapist Albert Nguyen.
Albert helps his clientsovercome past trauma, change
their mindset and acceleratetheir personal and professional
development.
This podcast covers a widerange of mental health and
self-development topics, witheach episode offering an
actionable step towards a betteryou.
(00:25):
If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So how about we transition from being a husband
to now being a father?
So each child brings their ownunique qualities to a family.
Do you remember when you hadyour first child, and what was
that like?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Obviously, the reason we got married was to have kids
and to have each other.
I know, when we had our firstchild, or even just first found
out we I was pregnant with ourfirst, we were giddy.
We were definitely really happy, um, scared of course, not
knowing what to expect.
There's all kinds of scary andcrazy things that can happen.
I know that because I statedbefore that I had three real
(01:04):
main goals in my life being ahusband and a father was second.
Yeah, like I said, we weregiddy, we were over the moon,
like you see it in the movies orwhatever the tv shows that you
get the couple that's wanting tohave a baby and then they get
pregnancy tests and crying happyand tell everybody and it was
exciting, it was.
I've been a worrier my wholelife, so I spent quite a bit of
(01:28):
time laying in bed, wanderingand worrying about having a son,
but no life about.
Maybe the childbirth would betoo much for her.
I might have tangled out a life.
It's the real thing.
The real thing some of us,probably for many of us, those
thoughts come from nowhere.
For years I had a youngersibling that we lost a few days
(01:48):
old, and then I lost agrandfather and some pets.
Through the years that kind ofmade me susceptible to those
fears and griefs about losingsomething like that.
So yeah, as an adult I wasdefinitely afraid of that.
And to be a father, it wasexciting, I was absolutely ready
(02:09):
for it, but at the same time,no idea what being a father
meant.
And they have books about itand all that.
And you get the books or buythe books.
Someone gives you the book andyou have the best entrance to
read every word in it and it'son a shelf for 15 years, never
read it.
Definitely.
(02:34):
When our first child was born,when Isaiah was born, it was an
overload of joy.
There's tears, there's amazinghappy camps.
Here we did it for parents.
It's actually a really funnystory too.
So with our first child, wethought it would be really cool
to allow both my mom and mywife's mom to be in the room for
the birth and it was reallyfunny because you have to go to
class, they have to go to birthclass before you have the birth
(02:58):
and they have you role play withyour spouse or your wife.
So them like you practiceencouraging them to breathe and
being there, being a help forthem.
But it turned out to behilarious because we decided
that Christine's mom and my momwould be in the room for birth
and so the three of us werebeside the bed, christine and
(03:19):
the whole time, through thewhole birth.
Her mom could encourage her andit was fine.
My mom could encourage her, andit was fine.
My mom could encourage her, andit was okay.
But any time I said anything Iwas sad.
It was hilarious In the momentit was funny, but not so funny
because it was happening.
I was experiencing it Today.
It's hilarious.
(03:39):
We love to joke about it andlaugh about it because it was
just funny.
Christine's mom was You're doinggreat, you're doing great, keep
it up.
And it was all yeah, okay.
And then my mom you're doinggood, you keep it up.
And it was all hockey door andI'm like you're doing fine.
And she turns to me and goesyou did this to me.
Whoa, what the heck is this?
(04:01):
It was like the comedies or youhear about about it.
There's comedians that have hadbits about that through the
years.
It was literally calling goodto go.
I said something and she justyou did this to me.
I turned and looked at it.
I was just petrified and Iturned and looked at my mom oh
yeah, oh yeah, yeah, nothinglike the training class.
(04:22):
And then I turned and looked atmy mom and I said yes, I'm just
going to go sit down.
And Christine turns to me andshe goes you're not going
anywhere.
Oh man, it was shocking.
I was just.
I was completely blown away.
(04:43):
But it was all fine.
Once it was all said and done,we were good and they left the
room.
And afterwards, after this allhappened, and we went home and
we talked about it.
Christine hardly rememberedanything.
She was so in the moment justtrying to give birth.
That's such a primal thing togive birth to a baby, that's
huge, that's massive, it's adramatic event.
(05:05):
So when I brought it up latershe hardly had any memory of it
and at that moment we decidedlike that we would not have
anyone or any of the rest of thebirds except her and I.
Because it was obvious inretrospect it was obvious
looking back, that thatbasically what had happened is
that these two women in ourlives that were supports for us
(05:31):
had become just that in thebirthing room.
She was the support and she wasthe support, and at that point
I became the source of the pain,source of the trauma that was
happening right then.
So we figure, with our secondchild we had nobody in the room
but of course the doctors,nurses and myself, my wife, and
(05:52):
it was fine, because then atthat point I was the sole source
of comfort and health, and sothat would.
That definitely cemented it forus.
For the rest of the birds, itwould only be her, and I'm super
, super thankful that I've beenable to be at every, all 12 of
the birds.
Every single experience ofbecoming a father again, again
and again.
(06:12):
I don't think that's changed.
I think I would say like that,maybe the amount of emotion or
the amount of tears and cryingand all that gains a bit,
probably less, because it's not.
I don't want to sound bad, butit's not new any.
(06:33):
The more you experiencesomething, it's still.
It's still fun to drive 100miles an hour every time you do
it, but it's just 100 miles anhour.
Now you've done it 20 times.
Whatever it, it's still amiracle, it's still amazing.
It still worries me everysingle time I got.
As years went on, I got morebrave, like I've kept forward
(06:54):
every time, the last severalbabies, I would go check it out.
The afterbirth and the wholemiracle of birth is amazing.
So to be able to experience itand see everything is has just
been amazing.
Every time it's amazing everytime you see it happen, still
amazing.
And as far as having multiplechildren, I've heard people ask
(07:18):
how can you even, how could youeven deal with that many
children, how could you evenlove so many children?
And I think that's where somepeople get it completely bad.
Every single time you haveanother child, love just
multiplies.
It doesn't divide.
It's not like you have todivide your love between your
children, it's multiplied.
Every child you have is justthat much more love.
(07:43):
You have to divide your time.
Of course you don't get moretime, but you get more
possibility.
So that part is a challenge,yes, but love, no.
Love multiplies, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So parenting I've worked with alot of parents also in the past
and it definitely involvessacrifices.
What's something that you'vewillingly sacrificed as a father
that has ultimately contributedto your personal growth and
your own family's well-being?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
There's a joke or a running joke in life that you
just can't wait to get the kidsto bed so that you can have some
time alone in life.
It's true, it's true.
It's true.
Some days it feels bad, itfeels crappy that you want to
put the kids to bed so that youcan just.
You just need space, you needthem to just not be grabbing at
(08:39):
your ankles, so to speak.
It's real, though it is so realit doesn't matter if you have
one or if you have both.
Yeah, I think the biggestsacrifice is this.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
That hasn't been different for you when you have
one, two, now 12?
The difference between having afew to what you have now?
Doesn't that change the levelof exhaustion and how much it
taxes you as a parent?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, yes and no, yes and no.
You get used to it.
There comes a point wherereally the hardest, the most
involved that you are with kidsis like that up to five or six
years old.
Hopefully now I ain't going tohave it Sometimes I'll have four
years old where they're stillpretty much constantly in a
diaper.
That's the real, time consuming, the real.
(09:29):
They need supervision andattention all day.
It's like that first four years.
So essentially, once you havefour kids, chaos never really
gets that much worse.
It's hard for people tounderstand unless you've been in
it.
Once you get four kids, or fivekids, the chaos doesn't really
(09:50):
get that much worse because oncethey hit five and six years of
age, their health they canactually take away from the
chaos.
And as long as you got thosefour kids in diapers, it doesn't
change.
It doesn't matter.
We have 12 now and, yeah, it ismore chaotic because instead of
dishing up four meals we have todish up 12 or 14 meals.
(10:11):
So definitely, instead ofcooking dinner for six, I'm
cooking dinner for 14.
That's bigger, yeah, but I'mstill cooking dinner Usually.
It still takes the same amountof time.
It's just instead of doing twopounds of hamburger, I'm doing
six or eight pounds of hamburger.
If I'm, instead of doing one ortwo steaks, I'm doing ten
(10:31):
steaks.
Instead of doing a package ofhot dogs and having leftovers,
we're doing three packages,whatever.
It's still just cooking dinner.
It's still the same level ofchaos.
We still only have three orfour diapers to change
constantly throughout the dayand the other kids still help
out.
So, yeah, it's definitely morewith a bunch of kids, definitely
(10:51):
more in every way.
I'm in Austin going to bedsaying goodnight I'm not saying
goodnight and tucking in threeor four kids.
It's 12 kids.
You gotta say goodnight and offto bed, probably bedtime.
(11:13):
And, excuse me, bedtime andbreakfast time are probably the
most chaotic because on themorning everybody's out of bed,
everybody wants breakfast, youhave all these kids that have to
shower and these kids that needa change, and so that's bigger
because there's still always acouple of kids two, three kids,
whatever that need the nighttimediapers.
So instead of just three or fourdiapers in the morning, it's
six.
So morning is more chaotic.
(11:34):
And then bedtime is also morechaotic because instead of this
kid playing here and this kidplaying here and this kid here,
and they're all kind ofself-entertaining, everyone's in
bed kid gear and they're allkind of self-entertaining.
Everyone's in bed and so youhave just a pile of kids that
aren't ready to go to bed ordon't want to go to bed or don't
want to quit playing.
Yeah, definitely, by the timeit's we're putting kids to bed,
(11:56):
we're ready for them to just bein bed, so we can have like a
half hour to just chill or go tosleep.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, Zach.
How has that affected yourrelationship with your wife and
with more kids?
Because I hear that you havethose moments where you're just
waiting for the kids to go tobed so you can have your space
and the time with your wife.
I'm wondering has that changedbecause there's more kids too,
and do you find it's harder tomake time for the?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
relationship.
For myself I'd say no, but Ithink that's going to be
different.
It goes without saying that wecould be self as humans.
We could be self.
This is mine, not yours, it'smine.
You can't have it, don't touchit, whatever.
And then some of us findourselves are more selfless
where we'll buy something that'smine, but then if you ask for
(12:51):
it we'll go ahead.
Sure, you can ask, and I tried.
I tried really hard in my life,yeah, to be selfless, to let
people have what I have to share, and apparently I do to a fault
, because I've been told severaltimes that you have to tell
people you have to charge foryour time.
Your time is valuable, yourtime is worth something.
(13:12):
You can't always give up yourtime and I understand that.
I do understand that.
But it just doesn't feel right.
I don't know, and on this dayand age people are like they
want to say it's a bad thing,shouldn't be that way.
But I don't, it's just not mynature.
Does that mean I'm a fool andI'm taking advantage of it?
(13:33):
I have no idea, I don't know.
But yeah, it's as far as takingaway from trying to still work
on the relationship or build,have a relationship.
That's up to you as a person.
Work on the relationship orbuild, have a relationship.
That's up to you as a person.
If you want that relationship,doesn't matter how many, how
many other responsibilities youhave, whether it's children,
whether it's a business andseven co-workers and three
(13:54):
business partners, everything incase.
Time is our most valuable assetand if you run plus 14 or 15
hour day and then you're justgoing to go to bed without
spending 20 minutes to talk toyour wife or hang out or or even
watch people, you sometimes wejust watch youtube videos and
laugh you have, you have to putin the work you do.
(14:14):
But there's often times wheremy wife is not feeling good
during the day and I'll I wakeup at 4, 30, 5 o'clock in the
morning.
When the weather's nice, I'llbike for it.
So you're looking at, then I'moff work and home by 4, 30 or 5,
so that's 12 hours.
If you had a rough day and notfeeling good, I'll come home,
cook dinner, and so that's anhour plus.
(14:35):
I'm cooking dinner and thenserve kids and serve ourselves
and eat and then we try bedtimeabout 7, 7, 7.38.
A lot of times that goes lateand then again bedtime chaos,
kids brushing their teeth.
Now that takes time.
Next thing, they're jumping inand out of the bathtub and
someone falls over and smackstheir head.
It's chaos.
It is, it's absolutely chaos,but I wouldn't trade it for
(14:59):
anything.
There's going to be some daywhen I'm old and alone and
that's a lie I won't be alonebecause I'm not.
I have kids and I'm not.
I'm doing everything I can tocreate a life and build children
that will become adults thatare good to this world, that are
(15:20):
good to the people of thisworld, that will build a life
for themselves that, hopefully,is fulfilling to them and
beneficial to society.
And I don't believe that if youraise children properly and you
do everything, you can givethem a good life.
I don't believe that they'llallow you to rot.
That's my hope.
(15:41):
That's my hope, but yeah, it's.
It is absolutely chaos and itcan be hard to find time for
each other, but it's a choice.
You have to do it.
Like I said, I could go to work.
I could go to work, work for 10hours, get home after 12 hours,
cook dinner, serve dinner, putthe kids to bed and still, after
(16:05):
all this, that's the decision.
After all this, after a 16-hourday, the kids are finally in bed
at 8.30.
They never go to bed that ever,unless we went to the park and
played for four hours, whichdoesn't have a work day.
They go to bed and they bouncearound for hours.
So if we're lucky, they doesn'thave my workday They'd go to
bed and they'd bounce around forhours.
So if we're lucky, they'reasleep by 1030.
(16:27):
And now we finally got somepeace and quiet.
We can chill till whatever,stay at 11.
And now I'm looking at five anda half hours of sleep for work.
So we just put the kids to bedand I go to bed and go to sleep.
Or do I hang out with my wifeand spend some quality time with
her and I?
Yeah that we can find eachother again.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
No, that makes a lot of sense, Twice.
It's all about not finding timeright.
It's about making time for thethings that matters to you.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, there's a silly little joke.
You'll have plenty of time tospeak with your dad.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So, as a parent of multiple kids, how do you
because you talked about thisearlier too how love doesn't
divide, but it multiplies Nowhow do you navigate that fine
line between treating them andgiving them time equally they
each have different needs anddifferent personalities and how
do you nurture each child'sunique identity?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
This one's hard.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's a work in progress.
Parenting itself is such atough job.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's a work in progress.
I know just the difference innot even just child to child,
but just I mean sons anddaughters is hard.
I was raised a lot more in thewith the conditioning that just
deal with it.
Just put it away and bury itand deal with it later.
(17:52):
You know, right now, this isthe task, right now, this.
We're going this way and allthat matters is that we go this
way.
I don't care if you're hurt, ifyou're sad, if you're whatever.
We're going this way, so godeal with later kind of thing.
Not that it not that I was oldto be this way, not that I was
(18:13):
trained to be this way.
It was more of a lead byexample, not a lot of emotion
gone.
I try and fail.
Most times I feel like fail,but I try to teach my kids that
there is, there's a time for it.
Course you have to be able totalk and communicate and get
things out and through the air,because as long as there's
friction between us, most of thetime, if there's something to
(18:34):
do again, that's where I focusis how I was raised the job to
get done, let's get the job.
When we're done with the job,we can talk.
For the most part that hasn'tchanged.
I don't think it's a bad thing,unless you don't make time to
talk about it later.
If you've closed line ofcommunication and you don't
allow for that issue to bediscussed later, then there's a
problem.
I think to be caste-oriented isgood but of course, like I said
(18:58):
, you have to build up asituation again later if there's
a concern to talk about.
Coming back to the daughters andsons thing for me, the biggest
challenge for myself again, itcomes back to the way I was
raised and being a man.
Get it done, we'll deal with itlater.
And with my daughters generallyit's more emotional, it's more
(19:18):
involved with how you're feelingand stuff.
This comes right back to thatwhole atomic family.
There's a reason why there's amother and a father Fathers.
They're that as daughters youhelp those daughters understand
how to treat a woman, becausethe way your father and mother
is the way that your man willtreat you.
There's age-old wisdom thatsays that a girl will find a man
(19:39):
like her father and a boy willfind a woman like her mother.
As a father and mother, youbetter make sure that the
example you're setting for howyou treat your spouse is the way
you would want your children'sspouses to treat them.
So maybe I don't have the realfull involvement in my
daughter's lives as far asemotionally being really
(20:01):
emotionally involved in theirlife, their life Not that I
can't, but my real criticalinvolvement in their life is to
show them how they should expectto be treated and loved.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
This is something I actually talk a lot about when I
work with parents.
A lot of parents I have workedwith in the past would ask me
what can I do to help my kidsbehave better or be a better
parent?
Then I would always tell themhow is your relationship
together?
First, are you guys having aloving relationship?
Because that example that youcreate is important, because
(20:36):
kids learn through observationsand they see that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, they emulate what they see.
Yeah, I think, when you talkabout recognizing each child for
their unique individuality,there's something said about a
smaller family for the fact thatyou could have more one-on-one
involvement with your children,with each child, as opposed to
the challenge of having a bigfamily, maybe feeling at times
(21:02):
like you don't have or can't getenough involvement with each
child individually.
But I think then there's alsothat trade-off of independence.
You only have a couple ofchildren and you're constantly,
always involved with them.
At what point do you know whento let go and back off, allow
(21:26):
them an individual, as opposedto when you have a large family
and there's more of a challengeto make time.
You have to choose to make timewith each child.
They will naturally become moreindependent or more cohesive as
peers where your children willwork together, where your
children will work together andthat creates this individuality,
(21:47):
this independence, thisunderstanding of how to work
with fear, with sibling, withsomeone, like I said, with a
fear that that's critical in thefuture as opposed to just being
so dependent on a parent.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So I'm glad that you brought that up and noticed that
within your own family dynamic.
I like that you gave thatexample, because the size of
your family is very unique.
I've been working with a lot offamilies with only one child
and what I've been seeing isthat child struggles to be
independent.
They actually become verycodependent.
(22:23):
It's like a failure to launch.
They struggle to be adults andthey struggle to take on
responsibilities.
So it makes sense what you'resaying here.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
There's a large portion of it, too, that I
experienced For myself.
Like I said, I was one of sevenand I was one of the elder ones
, so I did get tasked with somebabysitting and dealing with
younger kids.
But you, as a parent with alarge family, you can still be
very much involved in shelteringand overbearing in some ways
(22:54):
with your kids.
But making the choice to allowyour older children, or giving
your older children theresponsibility to help out with
the younger ones, to babysitthem, trip to the grocery store,
what have you?
One thing that I've always triedto keep in mind when we talk
about how I find not justraising children, trying to
create productive, responsibleadults, and so you have to give
(23:16):
them the tools to become that,and in order to become that,
they need to have responsibility, and that responsibility starts
all the way from cleaningyourself to washing your hands,
to picking up your toys.
Then, as they get older, nowyou can have a chore You're
responsible for some part ofthis household that you have to
(23:40):
whatever, clear the table, washdishes.
It seems like such meniallittle stuff and I think
sometimes maybe there's parentsthat don't feel like they should
make their kids do that stuff,but it's critically important.
You have to give your childrenresponsibilities, so that that's
part of becoming an adult.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
That makes a lot of sense.
I can see how that would help.
Now, what do you love?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
most about being a dad.
The best part of being a dad isloving your children and being
loved.
Again, it really comes back tochoice.
You have to choose to put inthe work, but you put in the
time and the energy and theeffort to love your children,
know that you love all of them,and to love you back and want to
hear that from you and want youto know they love this.
(24:24):
I think that's the bestpartving your children and being
loved back.
Being a parent, being a father,being involved, disciplining
Some people don't likediscipline.
It's necessary, all necessary.
You have to love your childrenenough to discipline.
You have to love your childrenenough to hold them to task when
they're wrong.
You really do.
(24:45):
Again, it's about creatingaccessible, contributing adults
in society, not about coddlingand babying your children.
You have to keep the end goalin mind.
Of course, you have to remembertheir children.
That's where I fail, that'swhere I fall short Remembering
that they're children,remembering that they're not
adults yet, that they need to beheld to a standard that's
(25:08):
reasonable because they're stillchildren.
And that's my biggestshortcoming in life is
essentially forgetting thatthey're children and holding
them to a standard that's nearlyinescapable for them because
they're children, they're notadults.
So I love the chaos, I love mykids, I love my wife.
(25:31):
We love the family trips.
We try to do multiple trips ayear, sometimes one big one.
We've gone to arizona lastthree years family trip and it's
chaos.
You drive 24 hours to go visitfamily.
It's chaos, chaos, but it's fun.
It's amazing to stop and seethe Grand Canyon.
We went to these caves in Utahon the way back this last summer
(25:56):
and it was beautiful.
You got to climb up thesecliffs more or less to get to
these caves and I kind ofwatched 12 kids in these caves
where there's no handrails andit's like you put all the ground
.
It was a little bit nervewracking and, for whatever
reason, in the moment I'm fineStaying on top of them, calling
get away from the cliff, getDublaine over here.
Abner is keeping everybody here.
(26:18):
And then when we got back to thehotel that night and I'm laying
in bed trying to fall asleep,in my mind is replaying that
situation, trying to fall asleep.
In my mind it's replaying thatsituation, but in my mind my
child is falling off the cliffand it's replaying over and over
(26:40):
and over again.
I can't fall asleep because theday's activities, as much fun as
they were and as beautiful asit was, awesome as it was to be
up in those cliffs with the kids, that one moment where Jublane
was headed for the cliff and noone was there with him and I had
to yell to get someone'sattention and stop her out, came
back my mind.
He went over that cliff againand again again and it was just
(27:03):
crushing for me to have to liveand relive that and I don't know
what it is, I don't know why itis.
I still love it.
I still wouldn't stay here foranything the pictures and the
memories and that being therewith the kids and for them
getting to see it, even thoughin my mind, trying to go to
(27:26):
sleep, reliving that fear overand over again, I wouldn't
change it for anything.
Chaos is crazy, but it's stillworth it.
Like I said, I don't know wherethat comes from, where that
fear of what could have happenedor might have happened.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I can't even imagine having to even have that thought
being replayed losing yourchild.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, it was pretty freaky.
It's not going to stop anything.
I'm not going to stop taking mychildren places and go on
vacation.
You still need that freedom andthat time and that fun together
.
It just helps with theawareness that things can happen
.
You're out on a swivel andwe're out.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, zach, thanks for your honesty.
It's nice to hear that, even atthis point in your life, after
having 12 kids, that it's okayto not have everything figured
out because you're still a workin progress as a dad, as a
person.
It's never ending, yep it neverends.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
We're always learning .
We stop learning, you startdying.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Growing, you start dying.
Next section I wanted to talkabout men's mental health and
masculinity, because I feel likemen's mental health has been
overlooked.
Masculinity, because I feellike men's mental health has
been overlooked and even thoughit has improved over the years,
it's still often overshadowed bymany other issues.
Interesting fact is that allaround the world, women are more
likely to be diagnosed withdepression and more likely to
(28:47):
attempt suicide, yet men dyingby suicide is still several
times higher than women.
Men dying by suicide is stillseveral times higher than women,
and I believe the real problemhere is that men are much less
likely to seek help.
They internalize a lot of theirproblems, which is why men are
more likely to be violent andhave suicidal intent, because
(29:08):
they're not talking about it.
They're suffering in silence,and it's no surprise that there
is a lot of stigma that stillexists for men, even more so in
modern society Confusion aroundthe idea of masculinity.
I work with young boys and theidea around masculinity is
almost like night and day.
Sometimes the older populationthat I work with tends to have a
(29:28):
clearer acceptance of what itmeans to be a man, and then,
when I work with younger boys,they're often confused and
almost ashamed of themselves.
The stigma often makes themless likely to even want to talk
about anything at all.
I believe that the conversationaround men's mental health is
currently shifting.
I believe one of the ways tochange this for the better is to
(29:51):
empower men to speak out andshare their stories, as this
provides an example forvulnerability, and I think we
need more examples of this frompeople just like you and me.
It's about just elevating thestories of men and what they
experience.
So my question to you is how doyou create space for emotional
(30:12):
expression to combat againstemotional suppression, because
that's something that a lot ofmen struggle with.
They suppress too much of theiremotions, which is the leading
cause of many men's mentalhealth issues.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
What caused my mind is normalized feeling.
We all have feelings, it's okay.
It's okay to be sad.
I think I feel like most timesmaybe it's just for myself, but
I doubt it.
I think most times when we feelemotions as men because of the
stigmas, instead of experiencingthat emotion or trying to place
(30:44):
that emotion and deal with that, oftentimes we just get angry
that we're feeling something wecan't recognize.
Just get angry that we'refeeling something we can't
recognize.
Like you said, there are morelikely to be violent than have
suicidal intent.
I really think that's what itis.
Instead of exploring what you'refeeling it sounds so foreign
(31:04):
and flowery to a lot of men butexplore your emotions, and
that's not like we want you togo sit in a field of daisies and
think about it.
It's just that you need tolearn to recognize what you are
dealing with, what you'refeeling, what you're going
through.
Have some grace for yourself.
Have some understanding.
(31:25):
Allow yourself to be okay withnot knowing.
Allow yourself to understandthat you don't have to have the
answer.
You don't have to knoweverything.
It's okay to say I don't haveto have the answer.
You don't have to knoweverything.
It's okay to say I don't knowwhat I'm feeling.
I don't know what this is.
I don't have the answer forthis.
I think that too often we justget mad, we just get angry
(31:45):
because you don't know what itis, or it's foreign to you, or
you don't want to feel sad oryou don't want to feel offended.
I'm not Everybody's offended.
Nowadays.
Everybody wants to be offended,everybody wants to be validated
, and that can make it evenharder.
That can make it even harderthat that you don't want to be
just another person who'soffended by everything.
But we have to know, we have torespect, we have to love
(32:10):
ourselves, we have to yeah, Ithink you just we need to have,
be able to have that opendialogue, communication.
Find someone that you can talkto.
You better have a friend.
Yeah, you better have a friendthat you can talk to.
I have a really good friendthat I can vent to and and my
wife.
I can talk to my wife aboutalmost everything.
(32:33):
But again, there's times.
There is times, and there willbe times, when I'm frustrated
and venting to my wife isn't theanswer, because I might be
venting about her.
You just never know.
There may be times when I gotto call my buddy just because I
got to vent about her and whatI'm going to say and what's
going to come out of my mouth isnothing but poison.
And I know sometimes people sayjust don't even let that
(32:57):
negativity come out of yourmouth.
I don't know, I don't quiteagree with that.
I think sometimes you got to getit out, you got to vent it.
If you got to get it out, gofind a tree in the middle of the
woods and I don't know, justget it out.
Don't keep it in, don'tinternalize it, don't bottle it
up.
We just have to make time,though.
(33:17):
I've noticed here that if youcan find a way, you also.
You can put a bookmark in it.
If you're going to yourself andyou're trying to get it done,
maybe right in the middle ofwhatever you're doing, whether
it's a task or a job or a choreor something, maybe that's not
the time to have a discussionabout what you're feeling or
what you're feeling Sometimes itjust isn't.
There's times when somethinghas to be done and you have to
(33:39):
focus on getting it done.
There would be some way thatyou could just put a pin in it
and don't forget about it,whether it's put a note on your
phone, whatever it is and justyeah, stay with it for later.
Being a man is much morecomplex than the world wants to
make it today.
Maybe it comes back to thatwhole balance thing.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I do think it's important that we do come back
to the things that bothers us,like you said.
I think what you said aboutputting a bookmark on it and
then go back to it later andwhen you feel like you have the
right mindset to deal with it.
That's something that a lot ofus struggle with, because if we
don't come back to it, it canoperate under the radar, can
project in other ways Life ismessy, what we do with it and
(34:20):
how we interpret it and try tomake sense of it and organize it
.
Has your perspective of being aman changed over the years, as
you transitioned from being ayoung boy and then becoming an
adult, and then from a husbandto finally being a father?
Has your idea of masculinityand being a man changed
throughout those years?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I don't I don't think there's one path, my, my
perspective on being a man whenyou're a boy, you do stupid
things.
When you're a child we talkedabout that teenage thing.
When you're a teenager and theysay a two to three year old
range is generally a pretty goodglimpse of how your child is
going to be as a teenager.
(35:01):
As far as the disconnects, thesilly things they do in their
attitude and stuff, and we wehave open conversations with our
boys, our teenage boys as theyget older and then the girls too
, that that there's thistransition in the mind body as
you go through puberty andbecome a teenager that things
don't.
I think it was explained to meonce when we tell our kids like
(35:23):
things don't, like synapsesdon't work right, they don't
fire right and there'sdisconnect and so you'll do
something, just to do it with nothought of what, what's going
to, why you're doing it.
You just do and then you windup having to deal with
consequences.
And is that the right thing todo?
Is it right to tell our kidsthat their brain is essentially
(35:44):
short-circuiting and misfiring?
I don't know.
Sometimes it seems maybe weshouldn't because they can be
upset about it when they do dumbthings without thinking, but
then other times I feel likethem, recognizing that's what
they just did is probably a goodthing.
I don't know, I don't have allthe answers and my perspective
(36:05):
on it.
Of course it's changing,constantly changing, because I'm
seeing my kids go through whatI went through and trying to
recognize what they're goingthrough, relating it to how I
was when I went through it andtrying to help them see and
(36:28):
navigate the pitfalls of whatthey could deal with or might
deal with.
And I had a pretty rough roadreally most of the mistakes I
made and the pain from it.
I've made a lot of mistakes Ithink we all have.
I know there's time and placefor me to share those mistakes
(36:52):
with them and for me to try togive them the best wisdom I can
possibly give them as far aswhat I did, how it went wrong,
what the consequence of it wasand what they could do to not
fall into the same pitfalls Idid or the same mistakes I did.
I think yeah, I think thatperspective should always be
(37:14):
changing.
Perspective doesn't necessarilychange the goal.
I think the goal has to staythe same.
Obviously, the goal is tocreate upstanding citizens in
this world, but every path isdifferent.
Everyone's path is different.
Everyone's experience isdifferent.
Path is different, everyone'sexperience is different.
(37:34):
Our children are us in as muchas they are themselves
individually.
So we have to realize andrecognize their traits or our
traits in them that we can helpnavigate.
Again, not overshadowing andnot you can see their launch
(37:55):
situation, allowing them to gothrough it, but trying to be
there to help guide.
I have a friend that told methat he was having a discussion
with one of his boys and the wayhe explained it I thought was
really good.
He said that in this stage inlife, as long as you're home and
you're not an adult yet, Icannot be your friend Because
(38:18):
that's not my job.
My job is to be your father.
My job is to try to guide youand help through life, to figure
out who you are and whereyou're going.
It's not until you're an adultthat we can be friends.
I thought that was really good.
He stated simply this thatright now I can't be your friend
.
It's not my job.
My job is to be your dad.
But in the future, once you'rean adult, we can be friends.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Looking back on journey through marriage,
parenting and navigating thecomplexities of trust and
temptations.
What's one piece of advice orlesson you've learned that you'd
like to share with thelisteners, something that has
consistently brought positivityand growth in your life?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
That's a lot of stuff to bring into one piece.
It's probably I always have tosay probably the one that's the
hardest for me and that's tohave grace and forgiveness for
yourself and for others.
I think so Because I know Istruggle.
I struggle with my own faultsand failings and sins so that I
(39:28):
commit to force others andmyself and my own soul, but
especially for others, andmyself and my own soul, but
especially for others, becausethere's whether it's someone I
work with, whether it's one ofmy own siblings, even someone I
work for it's pretty hard,pretty hard sometimes to have
(39:49):
grace for people, not even justyourself.
Like I said, I have a hard time.
I have a hard time having gracefor people not even just
yourself.
Like I said, I have a hard timehaving grace for myself, things
I've done in my life and the wayI've wronged people.
And, on that same topic, whensomeone's not handling you with
grace or forgiveness, it's hardto deal with.
(40:09):
It's really hard to deal withand I've experienced it quite a
bit that when someone doesn'thave grace or forgiveness for
you, the amount of pain itcauses.
And, as we've stated before alot of times, when we feel
emotions, I feel as men, when wefeel emotions, instead of
trying to understand that andcomprehend what it is and
(40:35):
intellectually break it down andfigure out what we can do with
it or fix it, we just get angry.
That's not the right answer,because I know for myself, when
someone handles me with anger orwith poise and they want to
hate me for what I've done, thatcreates a lot of anger in me.
(40:59):
So if you're to flip the scripton that and see where you
yourself or where I have treatedpeople that way and then
realize that, okay, when I'mtreated that way, it makes me
feel like this why on earth am Itreating them that way and
expecting any disrespect?
Finding that grace andforgiveness in yourself to deal
(41:24):
with someone in a situation likethat or to forgive them for the
wrong that they've committed toyou?
It could be difficult, like Isaid, I've had siblings that
I've had co-workers, even a bossbefore that I've struggled to
deal with or struggled to workwith, and I think it would be
(41:47):
grace and forgiveness to havethat when you can just let it go
.
Really, you know, have thatgracious forgiveness to
understand that you don'tunderstand where they're coming
from because you're not them andyou don't understand why they
may mistrust you or mistreat you, or you just have to.
(42:08):
You can only do it.
You can't change other people.
You can only do you can'tchange other people.
So you're just.
You're not going to gainanything by being upset about
something you can't change andyou can't force other people to
change.
So at some point you have torealize this and have the grace
(42:29):
to just keep doing the best youcan on your own and hopefully
with you showing them that grace.
And and have the grace to justkeep doing the best you can on
your own and hopefully, with youshowing them that grace, you'll
allow things to change.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Hopefully they'll see that difference in you and it
will repair itself Well.
Zach, thank you so much forjoining me today and taking time
off for your day with yourfamily to do this with me, and
it's an honor.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I love you brother.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I love you too, man.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
All right, zach, you take care of yourself, okay.
Signing off.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert
Nguyen.
We hope you found value in thisepisode.
If you'd like to work withAlbert one-on-one, visit
OptiMindCounselingcom to learnmore about his private practice.
Looking to join a community oflike-minded individuals, search
Mind Manners Podcast Communityon Facebook and join our group
(43:24):
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Finally, if you haven't alreadydone so, please write us a
five-star review on ApplePodcasts and let us know you're
enjoying the show.
You're listening to Mind Manners, hosted by licensed
psychotherapist Albert Nguyen.
Albert helps his clientsovercome past trauma, change
their mindset and acceleratetheir personal and professional
development.
This podcast covers a widerange of mental health and
self-development topics, witheach episode offering an
actionable step towards a betteryou.
(00:25):
If you're on a wellness journey, keep listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So how about we transition from being a husband
to now being a father?
So each child brings their ownunique qualities to a family.
Do you remember when you hadyour first child, and what was
that like?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Obviously, the reason we got married was to have kids
and to have each other.
I know, when we had our firstchild, or even just first found
out we I was pregnant with ourfirst, we were giddy.
We were definitely really happy, um, scared of course, not
knowing what to expect.
There's all kinds of scary andcrazy things that can happen.
I know that because I statedbefore that I had three real
(01:04):
main goals in my life being ahusband and a father was second.
Yeah, like I said, we weregiddy, we were over the moon,
like you see it in the movies orwhatever the tv shows that you
get the couple that's wanting tohave a baby and then they get
pregnancy tests and crying happyand tell everybody and it was
exciting, it was.
I've been a worrier my wholelife, so I spent quite a bit of
(01:28):
time laying in bed, wanderingand worrying about having a son,
but no life about.
Maybe the childbirth would betoo much for her.
I might have tangled out a life.
It's the real thing.
The real thing some of us,probably for many of us, those
thoughts come from nowhere.
For years I had a youngersibling that we lost a few days
(01:48):
old, and then I lost agrandfather and some pets.
Through the years that kind ofmade me susceptible to those
fears and griefs about losingsomething like that.
So yeah, as an adult I wasdefinitely afraid of that.
And to be a father, it wasexciting, I was absolutely ready
(02:09):
for it, but at the same time,no idea what being a father
meant.
And they have books about itand all that.
And you get the books or buythe books.
Someone gives you the book andyou have the best entrance to
read every word in it and it'son a shelf for 15 years, never
read it.
Definitely.
(02:34):
When our first child was born,when Isaiah was born, it was an
overload of joy.
There's tears, there's amazinghappy camps.
Here we did it for parents.
It's actually a really funnystory too.
So with our first child, wethought it would be really cool
to allow both my mom and mywife's mom to be in the room for
the birth and it was reallyfunny because you have to go to
class, they have to go to birthclass before you have the birth
(02:58):
and they have you role play withyour spouse or your wife.
So them like you practiceencouraging them to breathe and
being there, being a help forthem.
But it turned out to behilarious because we decided
that Christine's mom and my momwould be in the room for birth
and so the three of us werebeside the bed, christine and
(03:19):
the whole time, through thewhole birth.
Her mom could encourage her andit was fine.
My mom could encourage her, andit was fine.
My mom could encourage her, andit was okay.
But any time I said anything Iwas sad.
It was hilarious In the momentit was funny, but not so funny
because it was happening.
I was experiencing it Today.
It's hilarious.
(03:39):
We love to joke about it andlaugh about it because it was
just funny.
Christine's mom was You're doinggreat, you're doing great, keep
it up.
And it was all yeah, okay.
And then my mom you're doinggood, you keep it up.
And it was all hockey door andI'm like you're doing fine.
And she turns to me and goesyou did this to me.
Whoa, what the heck is this?
(04:01):
It was like the comedies or youhear about about it.
There's comedians that have hadbits about that through the
years.
It was literally calling goodto go.
I said something and she justyou did this to me.
I turned and looked at it.
I was just petrified and Iturned and looked at my mom oh
yeah, oh yeah, yeah, nothinglike the training class.
(04:22):
And then I turned and looked atmy mom and I said yes, I'm just
going to go sit down.
And Christine turns to me andshe goes you're not going
anywhere.
Oh man, it was shocking.
I was just.
I was completely blown away.
(04:43):
But it was all fine.
Once it was all said and done,we were good and they left the
room.
And afterwards, after this allhappened, and we went home and
we talked about it.
Christine hardly rememberedanything.
She was so in the moment justtrying to give birth.
That's such a primal thing togive birth to a baby, that's
huge, that's massive, it's adramatic event.
(05:05):
So when I brought it up latershe hardly had any memory of it
and at that moment we decidedlike that we would not have
anyone or any of the rest of thebirds except her and I.
Because it was obvious inretrospect it was obvious
looking back, that thatbasically what had happened is
that these two women in ourlives that were supports for us
(05:31):
had become just that in thebirthing room.
She was the support and she wasthe support, and at that point
I became the source of the pain,source of the trauma that was
happening right then.
So we figure, with our secondchild we had nobody in the room
but of course the doctors,nurses and myself, my wife, and
(05:52):
it was fine, because then atthat point I was the sole source
of comfort and health, and sothat would.
That definitely cemented it forus.
For the rest of the birds, itwould only be her, and I'm super
, super thankful that I've beenable to be at every, all 12 of
the birds.
Every single experience ofbecoming a father again, again
and again.
(06:12):
I don't think that's changed.
I think I would say like that,maybe the amount of emotion or
the amount of tears and cryingand all that gains a bit,
probably less, because it's not.
I don't want to sound bad, butit's not new any.
(06:33):
The more you experiencesomething, it's still.
It's still fun to drive 100miles an hour every time you do
it, but it's just 100 miles anhour.
Now you've done it 20 times.
Whatever it, it's still amiracle, it's still amazing.
It still worries me everysingle time I got.
As years went on, I got morebrave, like I've kept forward
(06:54):
every time, the last severalbabies, I would go check it out.
The afterbirth and the wholemiracle of birth is amazing.
So to be able to experience itand see everything is has just
been amazing.
Every time it's amazing everytime you see it happen, still
amazing.
And as far as having multiplechildren, I've heard people ask
(07:18):
how can you even, how could youeven deal with that many
children, how could you evenlove so many children?
And I think that's where somepeople get it completely bad.
Every single time you haveanother child, love just
multiplies.
It doesn't divide.
It's not like you have todivide your love between your
children, it's multiplied.
Every child you have is justthat much more love.
(07:43):
You have to divide your time.
Of course you don't get moretime, but you get more
possibility.
So that part is a challenge,yes, but love, no.
Love multiplies, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So parenting I've worked with alot of parents also in the past
and it definitely involvessacrifices.
What's something that you'vewillingly sacrificed as a father
that has ultimately contributedto your personal growth and
your own family's well-being?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
There's a joke or a running joke in life that you
just can't wait to get the kidsto bed so that you can have some
time alone in life.
It's true, it's true.
It's true.
Some days it feels bad, itfeels crappy that you want to
put the kids to bed so that youcan just.
You just need space, you needthem to just not be grabbing at
(08:39):
your ankles, so to speak.
It's real, though it is so realit doesn't matter if you have
one or if you have both.
Yeah, I think the biggestsacrifice is this.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
That hasn't been different for you when you have
one, two, now 12?
The difference between having afew to what you have now?
Doesn't that change the levelof exhaustion and how much it
taxes you as a parent?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, yes and no, yes and no.
You get used to it.
There comes a point wherereally the hardest, the most
involved that you are with kidsis like that up to five or six
years old.
Hopefully now I ain't going tohave it Sometimes I'll have four
years old where they're stillpretty much constantly in a
diaper.
That's the real, time consuming, the real.
(09:29):
They need supervision andattention all day.
It's like that first four years.
So essentially, once you havefour kids, chaos never really
gets that much worse.
It's hard for people tounderstand unless you've been in
it.
Once you get four kids, or fivekids, the chaos doesn't really
(09:50):
get that much worse because oncethey hit five and six years of
age, their health they canactually take away from the
chaos.
And as long as you got thosefour kids in diapers, it doesn't
change.
It doesn't matter.
We have 12 now and, yeah, it ismore chaotic because instead of
dishing up four meals we have todish up 12 or 14 meals.
(10:11):
So definitely, instead ofcooking dinner for six, I'm
cooking dinner for 14.
That's bigger, yeah, but I'mstill cooking dinner Usually.
It still takes the same amountof time.
It's just instead of doing twopounds of hamburger, I'm doing
six or eight pounds of hamburger.
If I'm, instead of doing one ortwo steaks, I'm doing ten
(10:31):
steaks.
Instead of doing a package ofhot dogs and having leftovers,
we're doing three packages,whatever.
It's still just cooking dinner.
It's still the same level ofchaos.
We still only have three orfour diapers to change
constantly throughout the dayand the other kids still help
out.
So, yeah, it's definitely morewith a bunch of kids, definitely
(10:51):
more in every way.
I'm in Austin going to bedsaying goodnight I'm not saying
goodnight and tucking in threeor four kids.
It's 12 kids.
You gotta say goodnight and offto bed, probably bedtime.
(11:13):
And, excuse me, bedtime andbreakfast time are probably the
most chaotic because on themorning everybody's out of bed,
everybody wants breakfast, youhave all these kids that have to
shower and these kids that needa change, and so that's bigger
because there's still always acouple of kids two, three kids,
whatever that need the nighttimediapers.
So instead of just three or fourdiapers in the morning, it's
six.
So morning is more chaotic.
(11:34):
And then bedtime is also morechaotic because instead of this
kid playing here and this kidplaying here and this kid here,
and they're all kind ofself-entertaining, everyone's in
bed kid gear and they're allkind of self-entertaining.
Everyone's in bed and so youhave just a pile of kids that
aren't ready to go to bed ordon't want to go to bed or don't
want to quit playing.
Yeah, definitely, by the timeit's we're putting kids to bed,
(11:56):
we're ready for them to just bein bed, so we can have like a
half hour to just chill or go tosleep.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, Zach.
How has that affected yourrelationship with your wife and
with more kids?
Because I hear that you havethose moments where you're just
waiting for the kids to go tobed so you can have your space
and the time with your wife.
I'm wondering has that changedbecause there's more kids too,
and do you find it's harder tomake time for the?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
relationship.
For myself I'd say no, but Ithink that's going to be
different.
It goes without saying that wecould be self as humans.
We could be self.
This is mine, not yours, it'smine.
You can't have it, don't touchit, whatever.
And then some of us findourselves are more selfless
where we'll buy something that'smine, but then if you ask for
(12:51):
it we'll go ahead.
Sure, you can ask, and I tried.
I tried really hard in my life,yeah, to be selfless, to let
people have what I have to share, and apparently I do to a fault
, because I've been told severaltimes that you have to tell
people you have to charge foryour time.
Your time is valuable, yourtime is worth something.
(13:12):
You can't always give up yourtime and I understand that.
I do understand that.
But it just doesn't feel right.
I don't know, and on this dayand age people are like they
want to say it's a bad thing,shouldn't be that way.
But I don't, it's just not mynature.
Does that mean I'm a fool andI'm taking advantage of it?
(13:33):
I have no idea, I don't know.
But yeah, it's as far as takingaway from trying to still work
on the relationship or build,have a relationship.
That's up to you as a person.
Work on the relationship orbuild, have a relationship.
That's up to you as a person.
If you want that relationship,doesn't matter how many, how
many other responsibilities youhave, whether it's children,
whether it's a business andseven co-workers and three
(13:54):
business partners, everything incase.
Time is our most valuable assetand if you run plus 14 or 15
hour day and then you're justgoing to go to bed without
spending 20 minutes to talk toyour wife or hang out or or even
watch people, you sometimes wejust watch youtube videos and
laugh you have, you have to putin the work you do.
(14:14):
But there's often times wheremy wife is not feeling good
during the day and I'll I wakeup at 4, 30, 5 o'clock in the
morning.
When the weather's nice, I'llbike for it.
So you're looking at, then I'moff work and home by 4, 30 or 5,
so that's 12 hours.
If you had a rough day and notfeeling good, I'll come home,
cook dinner, and so that's anhour plus.
(14:35):
I'm cooking dinner and thenserve kids and serve ourselves
and eat and then we try bedtimeabout 7, 7, 7.38.
A lot of times that goes lateand then again bedtime chaos,
kids brushing their teeth.
Now that takes time.
Next thing, they're jumping inand out of the bathtub and
someone falls over and smackstheir head.
It's chaos.
It is, it's absolutely chaos,but I wouldn't trade it for
(14:59):
anything.
There's going to be some daywhen I'm old and alone and
that's a lie I won't be alonebecause I'm not.
I have kids and I'm not.
I'm doing everything I can tocreate a life and build children
that will become adults thatare good to this world, that are
(15:20):
good to the people of thisworld, that will build a life
for themselves that, hopefully,is fulfilling to them and
beneficial to society.
And I don't believe that if youraise children properly and you
do everything, you can givethem a good life.
I don't believe that they'llallow you to rot.
That's my hope.
(15:41):
That's my hope, but yeah, it's.
It is absolutely chaos and itcan be hard to find time for
each other, but it's a choice.
You have to do it.
Like I said, I could go to work.
I could go to work, work for 10hours, get home after 12 hours,
cook dinner, serve dinner, putthe kids to bed and still, after
(16:05):
all this, that's the decision.
After all this, after a 16-hourday, the kids are finally in bed
at 8.30.
They never go to bed that ever,unless we went to the park and
played for four hours, whichdoesn't have a work day.
They go to bed and they bouncearound for hours.
So if we're lucky, they doesn'thave my workday They'd go to
bed and they'd bounce around forhours.
So if we're lucky, they'reasleep by 1030.
(16:27):
And now we finally got somepeace and quiet.
We can chill till whatever,stay at 11.
And now I'm looking at five anda half hours of sleep for work.
So we just put the kids to bedand I go to bed and go to sleep.
Or do I hang out with my wifeand spend some quality time with
her and I?
Yeah that we can find eachother again.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
No, that makes a lot of sense, Twice.
It's all about not finding timeright.
It's about making time for thethings that matters to you.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, there's a silly little joke.
You'll have plenty of time tospeak with your dad.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So, as a parent of multiple kids, how do you
because you talked about thisearlier too how love doesn't
divide, but it multiplies Nowhow do you navigate that fine
line between treating them andgiving them time equally they
each have different needs anddifferent personalities and how
do you nurture each child'sunique identity?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
This one's hard.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's a work in progress.
Parenting itself is such atough job.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's a work in progress.
I know just the difference innot even just child to child,
but just I mean sons anddaughters is hard.
I was raised a lot more in thewith the conditioning that just
deal with it.
Just put it away and bury itand deal with it later.
(17:52):
You know, right now, this isthe task, right now, this.
We're going this way and allthat matters is that we go this
way.
I don't care if you're hurt, ifyou're sad, if you're whatever.
We're going this way, so godeal with later kind of thing.
Not that it not that I was oldto be this way, not that I was
(18:13):
trained to be this way.
It was more of a lead byexample, not a lot of emotion
gone.
I try and fail.
Most times I feel like fail,but I try to teach my kids that
there is, there's a time for it.
Course you have to be able totalk and communicate and get
things out and through the air,because as long as there's
friction between us, most of thetime, if there's something to
(18:34):
do again, that's where I focusis how I was raised the job to
get done, let's get the job.
When we're done with the job,we can talk.
For the most part that hasn'tchanged.
I don't think it's a bad thing,unless you don't make time to
talk about it later.
If you've closed line ofcommunication and you don't
allow for that issue to bediscussed later, then there's a
problem.
I think to be caste-oriented isgood but of course, like I said
(18:58):
, you have to build up asituation again later if there's
a concern to talk about.
Coming back to the daughters andsons thing for me, the biggest
challenge for myself again, itcomes back to the way I was
raised and being a man.
Get it done, we'll deal with itlater.
And with my daughters generallyit's more emotional, it's more
(19:18):
involved with how you're feelingand stuff.
This comes right back to thatwhole atomic family.
There's a reason why there's amother and a father Fathers.
They're that as daughters youhelp those daughters understand
how to treat a woman, becausethe way your father and mother
is the way that your man willtreat you.
There's age-old wisdom thatsays that a girl will find a man
(19:39):
like her father and a boy willfind a woman like her mother.
As a father and mother, youbetter make sure that the
example you're setting for howyou treat your spouse is the way
you would want your children'sspouses to treat them.
So maybe I don't have the realfull involvement in my
daughter's lives as far asemotionally being really
(20:01):
emotionally involved in theirlife, their life Not that I
can't, but my real criticalinvolvement in their life is to
show them how they should expectto be treated and loved.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
This is something I actually talk a lot about when I
work with parents.
A lot of parents I have workedwith in the past would ask me
what can I do to help my kidsbehave better or be a better
parent?
Then I would always tell themhow is your relationship
together?
First, are you guys having aloving relationship?
Because that example that youcreate is important, because
(20:36):
kids learn through observationsand they see that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, they emulate what they see.
Yeah, I think, when you talkabout recognizing each child for
their unique individuality,there's something said about a
smaller family for the fact thatyou could have more one-on-one
involvement with your children,with each child, as opposed to
the challenge of having a bigfamily, maybe feeling at times
(21:02):
like you don't have or can't getenough involvement with each
child individually.
But I think then there's alsothat trade-off of independence.
You only have a couple ofchildren and you're constantly,
always involved with them.
At what point do you know whento let go and back off, allow
(21:26):
them an individual, as opposedto when you have a large family
and there's more of a challengeto make time.
You have to choose to make timewith each child.
They will naturally become moreindependent or more cohesive as
peers where your children willwork together, where your
children will work together andthat creates this individuality,
(21:47):
this independence, thisunderstanding of how to work
with fear, with sibling, withsomeone, like I said, with a
fear that that's critical in thefuture as opposed to just being
so dependent on a parent.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So I'm glad that you brought that up and noticed that
within your own family dynamic.
I like that you gave thatexample, because the size of
your family is very unique.
I've been working with a lot offamilies with only one child
and what I've been seeing isthat child struggles to be
independent.
They actually become verycodependent.
(22:23):
It's like a failure to launch.
They struggle to be adults andthey struggle to take on
responsibilities.
So it makes sense what you'resaying here.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
There's a large portion of it, too, that I
experienced For myself.
Like I said, I was one of sevenand I was one of the elder ones
, so I did get tasked with somebabysitting and dealing with
younger kids.
But you, as a parent with alarge family, you can still be
very much involved in shelteringand overbearing in some ways
(22:54):
with your kids.
But making the choice to allowyour older children, or giving
your older children theresponsibility to help out with
the younger ones, to babysitthem, trip to the grocery store,
what have you?
One thing that I've always triedto keep in mind when we talk
about how I find not justraising children, trying to
create productive, responsibleadults, and so you have to give
(23:16):
them the tools to become that,and in order to become that,
they need to have responsibility, and that responsibility starts
all the way from cleaningyourself to washing your hands,
to picking up your toys.
Then, as they get older, nowyou can have a chore You're
responsible for some part ofthis household that you have to
(23:40):
whatever, clear the table, washdishes.
It seems like such meniallittle stuff and I think
sometimes maybe there's parentsthat don't feel like they should
make their kids do that stuff,but it's critically important.
You have to give your childrenresponsibilities, so that that's
part of becoming an adult.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
That makes a lot of sense.
I can see how that would help.
Now, what do you love?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
most about being a dad.
The best part of being a dad isloving your children and being
loved.
Again, it really comes back tochoice.
You have to choose to put inthe work, but you put in the
time and the energy and theeffort to love your children,
know that you love all of them,and to love you back and want to
hear that from you and want youto know they love this.
(24:24):
I think that's the bestpartving your children and being
loved back.
Being a parent, being a father,being involved, disciplining
Some people don't likediscipline.
It's necessary, all necessary.
You have to love your childrenenough to discipline.
You have to love your childrenenough to hold them to task when
they're wrong.
You really do.
(24:45):
Again, it's about creatingaccessible, contributing adults
in society, not about coddlingand babying your children.
You have to keep the end goalin mind.
Of course, you have to remembertheir children.
That's where I fail, that'swhere I fall short Remembering
that they're children,remembering that they're not
adults yet, that they need to beheld to a standard that's
(25:08):
reasonable because they're stillchildren.
And that's my biggestshortcoming in life is
essentially forgetting thatthey're children and holding
them to a standard that's nearlyinescapable for them because
they're children, they're notadults.
So I love the chaos, I love mykids, I love my wife.
(25:31):
We love the family trips.
We try to do multiple trips ayear, sometimes one big one.
We've gone to arizona lastthree years family trip and it's
chaos.
You drive 24 hours to go visitfamily.
It's chaos, chaos, but it's fun.
It's amazing to stop and seethe Grand Canyon.
We went to these caves in Utahon the way back this last summer
(25:56):
and it was beautiful.
You got to climb up thesecliffs more or less to get to
these caves and I kind ofwatched 12 kids in these caves
where there's no handrails andit's like you put all the ground
.
It was a little bit nervewracking and, for whatever
reason, in the moment I'm fineStaying on top of them, calling
get away from the cliff, getDublaine over here.
Abner is keeping everybody here.
(26:18):
And then when we got back to thehotel that night and I'm laying
in bed trying to fall asleep,in my mind is replaying that
situation, trying to fall asleep.
In my mind it's replaying thatsituation, but in my mind my
child is falling off the cliffand it's replaying over and over
(26:40):
and over again.
I can't fall asleep because theday's activities, as much fun as
they were and as beautiful asit was, awesome as it was to be
up in those cliffs with the kids, that one moment where Jublane
was headed for the cliff and noone was there with him and I had
to yell to get someone'sattention and stop her out, came
back my mind.
He went over that cliff againand again again and it was just
(27:03):
crushing for me to have to liveand relive that and I don't know
what it is, I don't know why itis.
I still love it.
I still wouldn't stay here foranything the pictures and the
memories and that being therewith the kids and for them
getting to see it, even thoughin my mind, trying to go to
(27:26):
sleep, reliving that fear overand over again, I wouldn't
change it for anything.
Chaos is crazy, but it's stillworth it.
Like I said, I don't know wherethat comes from, where that
fear of what could have happenedor might have happened.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I can't even imagine having to even have that thought
being replayed losing yourchild.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, it was pretty freaky.
It's not going to stop anything.
I'm not going to stop taking mychildren places and go on
vacation.
You still need that freedom andthat time and that fun together
.
It just helps with theawareness that things can happen
.
You're out on a swivel andwe're out.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, zach, thanks for your honesty.
It's nice to hear that, even atthis point in your life, after
having 12 kids, that it's okayto not have everything figured
out because you're still a workin progress as a dad, as a
person.
It's never ending, yep it neverends.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
We're always learning .
We stop learning, you startdying.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Growing, you start dying.
Next section I wanted to talkabout men's mental health and
masculinity, because I feel likemen's mental health has been
overlooked.
Masculinity, because I feellike men's mental health has
been overlooked and even thoughit has improved over the years,
it's still often overshadowed bymany other issues.
Interesting fact is that allaround the world, women are more
likely to be diagnosed withdepression and more likely to
(28:47):
attempt suicide, yet men dyingby suicide is still several
times higher than women.
Men dying by suicide is stillseveral times higher than women,
and I believe the real problemhere is that men are much less
likely to seek help.
They internalize a lot of theirproblems, which is why men are
more likely to be violent andhave suicidal intent, because
(29:08):
they're not talking about it.
They're suffering in silence,and it's no surprise that there
is a lot of stigma that stillexists for men, even more so in
modern society Confusion aroundthe idea of masculinity.
I work with young boys and theidea around masculinity is
almost like night and day.
Sometimes the older populationthat I work with tends to have a
(29:28):
clearer acceptance of what itmeans to be a man, and then,
when I work with younger boys,they're often confused and
almost ashamed of themselves.
The stigma often makes themless likely to even want to talk
about anything at all.
I believe that the conversationaround men's mental health is
currently shifting.
I believe one of the ways tochange this for the better is to
(29:51):
empower men to speak out andshare their stories, as this
provides an example forvulnerability, and I think we
need more examples of this frompeople just like you and me.
It's about just elevating thestories of men and what they
experience.
So my question to you is how doyou create space for emotional
(30:12):
expression to combat againstemotional suppression, because
that's something that a lot ofmen struggle with.
They suppress too much of theiremotions, which is the leading
cause of many men's mentalhealth issues.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
What caused my mind is normalized feeling.
We all have feelings, it's okay.
It's okay to be sad.
I think I feel like most timesmaybe it's just for myself, but
I doubt it.
I think most times when we feelemotions as men because of the
stigmas, instead of experiencingthat emotion or trying to place
(30:44):
that emotion and deal with that, oftentimes we just get angry
that we're feeling something wecan't recognize.
Just get angry that we'refeeling something we can't
recognize.
Like you said, there are morelikely to be violent than have
suicidal intent.
I really think that's what itis.
Instead of exploring what you'refeeling it sounds so foreign
(31:04):
and flowery to a lot of men butexplore your emotions, and
that's not like we want you togo sit in a field of daisies and
think about it.
It's just that you need tolearn to recognize what you are
dealing with, what you'refeeling, what you're going
through.
Have some grace for yourself.
Have some understanding.
(31:25):
Allow yourself to be okay withnot knowing.
Allow yourself to understandthat you don't have to have the
answer.
You don't have to knoweverything.
It's okay to say I don't haveto have the answer.
You don't have to knoweverything.
It's okay to say I don't knowwhat I'm feeling.
I don't know what this is.
I don't have the answer forthis.
I think that too often we justget mad, we just get angry
(31:45):
because you don't know what itis, or it's foreign to you, or
you don't want to feel sad oryou don't want to feel offended.
I'm not Everybody's offended.
Nowadays.
Everybody wants to be offended,everybody wants to be validated
, and that can make it evenharder.
That can make it even harderthat that you don't want to be
just another person who'soffended by everything.
But we have to know, we have torespect, we have to love
(32:10):
ourselves, we have to yeah, Ithink you just we need to have,
be able to have that opendialogue, communication.
Find someone that you can talkto.
You better have a friend.
Yeah, you better have a friendthat you can talk to.
I have a really good friendthat I can vent to and and my
wife.
I can talk to my wife aboutalmost everything.
(32:33):
But again, there's times.
There is times, and there willbe times, when I'm frustrated
and venting to my wife isn't theanswer, because I might be
venting about her.
You just never know.
There may be times when I gotto call my buddy just because I
got to vent about her and whatI'm going to say and what's
going to come out of my mouth isnothing but poison.
And I know sometimes people sayjust don't even let that
(32:57):
negativity come out of yourmouth.
I don't know, I don't quiteagree with that.
I think sometimes you got to getit out, you got to vent it.
If you got to get it out, gofind a tree in the middle of the
woods and I don't know, justget it out.
Don't keep it in, don'tinternalize it, don't bottle it
up.
We just have to make time,though.
(33:17):
I've noticed here that if youcan find a way, you also.
You can put a bookmark in it.
If you're going to yourself andyou're trying to get it done,
maybe right in the middle ofwhatever you're doing, whether
it's a task or a job or a choreor something, maybe that's not
the time to have a discussionabout what you're feeling or
what you're feeling Sometimes itjust isn't.
There's times when somethinghas to be done and you have to
(33:39):
focus on getting it done.
There would be some way thatyou could just put a pin in it
and don't forget about it,whether it's put a note on your
phone, whatever it is and justyeah, stay with it for later.
Being a man is much morecomplex than the world wants to
make it today.
Maybe it comes back to thatwhole balance thing.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I do think it's important that we do come back
to the things that bothers us,like you said.
I think what you said aboutputting a bookmark on it and
then go back to it later andwhen you feel like you have the
right mindset to deal with it.
That's something that a lot ofus struggle with, because if we
don't come back to it, it canoperate under the radar, can
project in other ways Life ismessy, what we do with it and
(34:20):
how we interpret it and try tomake sense of it and organize it
.
Has your perspective of being aman changed over the years, as
you transitioned from being ayoung boy and then becoming an
adult, and then from a husbandto finally being a father?
Has your idea of masculinityand being a man changed
throughout those years?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I don't I don't think there's one path, my, my
perspective on being a man whenyou're a boy, you do stupid
things.
When you're a child we talkedabout that teenage thing.
When you're a teenager and theysay a two to three year old
range is generally a pretty goodglimpse of how your child is
going to be as a teenager.
(35:01):
As far as the disconnects, thesilly things they do in their
attitude and stuff, and we wehave open conversations with our
boys, our teenage boys as theyget older and then the girls too
, that that there's thistransition in the mind body as
you go through puberty andbecome a teenager that things
don't.
I think it was explained to meonce when we tell our kids like
(35:23):
things don't, like synapsesdon't work right, they don't
fire right and there'sdisconnect and so you'll do
something, just to do it with nothought of what, what's going
to, why you're doing it.
You just do and then you windup having to deal with
consequences.
And is that the right thing todo?
Is it right to tell our kidsthat their brain is essentially
(35:44):
short-circuiting and misfiring?
I don't know.
Sometimes it seems maybe weshouldn't because they can be
upset about it when they do dumbthings without thinking, but
then other times I feel likethem, recognizing that's what
they just did is probably a goodthing.
I don't know, I don't have allthe answers and my perspective
(36:05):
on it.
Of course it's changing,constantly changing, because I'm
seeing my kids go through whatI went through and trying to
recognize what they're goingthrough, relating it to how I
was when I went through it andtrying to help them see and
(36:28):
navigate the pitfalls of whatthey could deal with or might
deal with.
And I had a pretty rough roadreally most of the mistakes I
made and the pain from it.
I've made a lot of mistakes Ithink we all have.
I know there's time and placefor me to share those mistakes
(36:52):
with them and for me to try togive them the best wisdom I can
possibly give them as far aswhat I did, how it went wrong,
what the consequence of it wasand what they could do to not
fall into the same pitfalls Idid or the same mistakes I did.
I think yeah, I think thatperspective should always be
(37:14):
changing.
Perspective doesn't necessarilychange the goal.
I think the goal has to staythe same.
Obviously, the goal is tocreate upstanding citizens in
this world, but every path isdifferent.
Everyone's path is different.
Everyone's experience isdifferent.
Path is different, everyone'sexperience is different.
(37:34):
Our children are us in as muchas they are themselves
individually.
So we have to realize andrecognize their traits or our
traits in them that we can helpnavigate.
Again, not overshadowing andnot you can see their launch
(37:55):
situation, allowing them to gothrough it, but trying to be
there to help guide.
I have a friend that told methat he was having a discussion
with one of his boys and the wayhe explained it I thought was
really good.
He said that in this stage inlife, as long as you're home and
you're not an adult yet, Icannot be your friend Because
(38:18):
that's not my job.
My job is to be your father.
My job is to try to guide youand help through life, to figure
out who you are and whereyou're going.
It's not until you're an adultthat we can be friends.
I thought that was really good.
He stated simply this thatright now I can't be your friend
.
It's not my job.
My job is to be your dad.
But in the future, once you'rean adult, we can be friends.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Looking back on journey through marriage,
parenting and navigating thecomplexities of trust and
temptations.
What's one piece of advice orlesson you've learned that you'd
like to share with thelisteners, something that has
consistently brought positivityand growth in your life?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
That's a lot of stuff to bring into one piece.
It's probably I always have tosay probably the one that's the
hardest for me and that's tohave grace and forgiveness for
yourself and for others.
I think so Because I know Istruggle.
I struggle with my own faultsand failings and sins so that I
(39:28):
commit to force others andmyself and my own soul, but
especially for others, andmyself and my own soul, but
especially for others, becausethere's whether it's someone I
work with, whether it's one ofmy own siblings, even someone I
work for it's pretty hard,pretty hard sometimes to have
(39:49):
grace for people, not even justyourself.
Like I said, I have a hard time.
I have a hard time having gracefor people not even just
yourself.
Like I said, I have a hard timehaving grace for myself, things
I've done in my life and the wayI've wronged people.
And, on that same topic, whensomeone's not handling you with
grace or forgiveness, it's hardto deal with.
(40:09):
It's really hard to deal withand I've experienced it quite a
bit that when someone doesn'thave grace or forgiveness for
you, the amount of pain itcauses.
And, as we've stated before alot of times, when we feel
emotions, I feel as men, when wefeel emotions, instead of
trying to understand that andcomprehend what it is and
(40:35):
intellectually break it down andfigure out what we can do with
it or fix it, we just get angry.
That's not the right answer,because I know for myself, when
someone handles me with anger orwith poise and they want to
hate me for what I've done, thatcreates a lot of anger in me.
(40:59):
So if you're to flip the scripton that and see where you
yourself or where I have treatedpeople that way and then
realize that, okay, when I'mtreated that way, it makes me
feel like this why on earth am Itreating them that way and
expecting any disrespect?
Finding that grace andforgiveness in yourself to deal
(41:24):
with someone in a situation likethat or to forgive them for the
wrong that they've committed toyou?
It could be difficult, like Isaid, I've had siblings that
I've had co-workers, even a bossbefore that I've struggled to
deal with or struggled to workwith, and I think it would be
(41:47):
grace and forgiveness to havethat when you can just let it go
.
Really, you know, have thatgracious forgiveness to
understand that you don'tunderstand where they're coming
from because you're not them andyou don't understand why they
may mistrust you or mistreat you, or you just have to.
(42:08):
You can only do it.
You can't change other people.
You can only do you can'tchange other people.
So you're just.
You're not going to gainanything by being upset about
something you can't change andyou can't force other people to
change.
So at some point you have torealize this and have the grace
(42:29):
to just keep doing the best youcan on your own and hopefully
with you showing them that grace.
And and have the grace to justkeep doing the best you can on
your own and hopefully, with youshowing them that grace, you'll
allow things to change.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Hopefully they'll see that difference in you and it
will repair itself Well.
Zach, thank you so much forjoining me today and taking time
off for your day with yourfamily to do this with me, and
it's an honor.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I love you brother.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I love you too, man.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
All right, zach, you take care of yourself, okay.
Signing off.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Thanks for tuning in to Mind Manners with Albert
Nguyen.
We hope you found value in thisepisode.
If you'd like to work withAlbert one-on-one, visit
OptiMindCounselingcom to learnmore about his private practice.
Looking to join a community oflike-minded individuals, search
Mind Manners Podcast Communityon Facebook and join our group
(43:24):
to connect with others on theirwellness journeys.
Finally, if you haven't alreadydone so, please write us a
five-star review on ApplePodcasts and let us know you're
enjoying the show.
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