Oprah on Ozempic

Imagine the power of a single voice influencing your health decisions—this is the world we navigate when Oprah Winfrey speaks on wellness. Weight loss, a subject close to the hearts of many, including my wife, gains a new dimension through Oprah's lens. In the latest special, her discussion on weight loss medications ripples through the public consciousness, bringing both inspiration and a hefty dose of skepticism. As a fitness professional, I've seen the fallout of celebrity-endorsed health advice, and this episode peels back the layers on the good, the bad, and the questionable.

Celebrity clout in healthcare is a minefield, with TV icons like Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz guiding viewers through a maze of pseudo-scientific advice that often leads to dead ends. We break down the precarious pedestal we've placed these personalities on, examining their endorsements and the unsettling traction they gain, such as the anti-vax movement's rise to infamy. Through anecdotes and expert insights, we scrutinize the tangled web woven by fame and health, urging a path of discernment amidst a sea of influential but potentially misleading wellness narratives.

At the core of this discussion is the human struggle with willpower and the notion of obesity as a disease—a dichotomy that pervades our collective mindset. We share intimate stories of personal battles with temptation and the societal tug-of-war between self-acceptance and the pursuit of health. Reflecting on Oprah's own journey, we ponder the role of values and the strange comfort found in the judgment of strangers. This episode is an invitation to tread thoughtfully through the landscape of wellness, armed not with the latest fad, but with the integrity of informed choice.

Producer: Thor Benander
Editor: Luke Morey
Intro Theme: Ajax Benander
Intro: Timothy Durant

For more, visit Simon at The Antagonist

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon Devere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place we study the history, science and philosophy,

(00:25):
everything in health and fitness.
Today I am Simon Devere andthere is nothing new except all
that has been forgotten.
All right, so I'll date myself,I don't mind.
I'm recording this on a Tuesdayafternoon and last night Oprah

(00:45):
the Oprah aired a weight lossspecial.
It was called Oprah's BlameShame Weight Loss Special and
yeah, so I actually, admittedly,I was already preparing to talk
about Oprah in a separatecontext, so I had a different

(01:06):
set of material prepared.
This happened and it wastopical, so, anyway, I actually
abandoned the direction I wasgoing to go in a little bit and
I actually wanted to focus moreon kind of the latest health
trend that Oprah is waiting into.
All of the work I waspreviously preparing was kind of

(01:28):
a history of some of the healthand fitness claims she has made
on the show.
So, before we do dive into thelatest episode that I watched
last night, I do actually stillwant to run down a brief history
.
Admittedly, I actually had toedit out a bunch, otherwise we
wouldn't have had time to talkabout last night's show, but

(01:50):
yeah, so I actually I had a lotof this stuff ready to go and
actually couldn't fit all ofthat Because obviously just the
show she's had for I believesince 1986, she has covered a
lot of ideas in the health andfitness space and even though
now we have this term influencer, I think it would be almost

(02:13):
inarguable that in the healthand fitness space, I believe she
has influenced more people tomake choices.
That I may or may not agreewith, and we'll touch on that
later, but I think, in fairnessto her, that she probably is,
objectively, the most successfulhealth influencer possibly in

(02:35):
the history.
We've talked about a lot ofthem and if we're just talking
dollars, units, products, moved,she might be the best ever to
do it.
So, yeah, I was alreadypreparing to talk about Oprah,
just because she has had just anundeniable massive impact on at

(02:55):
least what modern Americansthink about health and fitness
and in that regard she's kind ofa very, very important figure
in the health and fitness space.
But yeah, so objective today Ido.
Mostly our goal is going to beto actually break down horror

(03:17):
latest special that mostlyfocuses on the new weight loss
drugs.
We've covered that topic herealready.
So again, we're going to mostlylook at what Oprah was
presenting last night and wherethat sits with the current body
of knowledge that we are seeingelsewhere, not on Oprah's show.

(03:38):
So we'll try to place that in alarger context.
But yeah, we've already talkedweight loss drugs, so we're not
going to talk about themechanisms, how they work, stuff
like that.
I just don't think we need togo back over that ground again
today.
But again, I do think thatactually, before I get into last

(04:00):
night's episode, that we dohave to have an honest account
of some not a complete list, butof some of Oprah's health and
fitness advice over many, manyyears of being an incredibly
influential person in prettymuch every facet of our culture.
I am going to be saying a lotof.

(04:24):
It's going to say mean, butthey're not mean.
I'm going to say a lot ofcritical things.
So before I get into that, Iwant to say some good things.
One this is like a personal heroof my wife's, so certainly not
unfamiliar with how many peopleshe has inspired my wife growing

(04:45):
up being able to see that show.
She was able to see herself andultimately had a show of her
own.
So it's not lost on me thepositive impact that Oprah has
had.
In many ways.
She's obviously an incrediblytalented person.
She's got to be one of the mostsuccessful marketers, investors

(05:08):
the Oprah effect is very, veryreal.
So one upfront let's just givecredit where credit is due.
She is an insanely talentedperson that has inspired a lot
of people for a lot of goodreasons.
That being said, now we can getto the part where I can be

(05:30):
honest.
Well, that was honest.
This is now me, though, notother people.
She has particularly given badadvice in the context of health
and fitness almost consistentlyfor decades.
So this actually was always oneof the running, not a beef,

(05:51):
because obviously we're marriedand it's fine.
But me and my wife have notalways seen eye to eye on the
value of Oprah's show and as atrainer, I'm not a television
host.
My wife was.
I'm a trainer, so I do see it alittle bit differently and I
completely understand all of thethings she has done well as a

(06:12):
television host.
That is not lost on me for onesecond.
Just keep in mind, I'm atrainer and I work with real
people on health problems and sofrom my standpoint, to be quite
honest, her show and people shehas brought out have created a
lot of baggage and a lot ofthings for me that have made my

(06:35):
day to day harder and actuallymakes it more difficult for me
to get the people I'm workingwith good results, because
they're carrying priors andbaggage that I could trace back
to Oprah's show.
So, anyway, I'm going to be alittle bit more specific, though
, about what types of ideas thathave really been frustrating

(06:55):
Couple I didn't deal with at all, but I just want to point out,
if you guys remember the satanicpanic back in the 80s, oprah
did run a lot of segments onthat that never panned out, and
if you go back and look at thepeople who were reporting on it,
that this was actually one ofthose things where the

(07:16):
journalists and people bringingthis out were not vetting
anything.
There was no there there.
Similarly, because these aren'thealth issues, but obviously
there were a lot of segments on2012.
You guys might remember theMayan prophecies and all of the
things that were supposed tochange.
That came and went.

(07:37):
So, yeah, not just in thehealth space, but just in
general.
I think it's fair to point outthat there has been a pattern,
again, not only on.
She's not the only one.
She's just the most popular, sowe're only attacking the
winners.
That's how it goes.
But yeah, she has shown apattern over many years of not

(08:03):
vetting sources,sensationalizing and going with
things that will get attentionbut that won't necessarily hold
up under the test of time.
That can get problematic ifpeople don't go back and look
and they're still anchored tobad priors.
And again, this one's notexactly health.

(08:24):
It does tie in, though.
You know, one of the gurus thatwas promoted on the show many
times was a man by the name ofJohn of God.
So now you can find that he iscurrently arrested and I believe
he is serving a sentence of 370years.
Charges stemming from homicide,money laundering, tax evasion,

(08:48):
legal possessions of guns,hundreds of rape victims aging
from the age of nine to 67.
The victims also include hisown daughter and granddaughter.
I bring him up because he wasbrought on by Oprah multiple
times and went largelyunchallenged during multiple

(09:11):
segments.
Obviously, other things came tolight as time went on, but even
in real time there were thingsthat were failed to be mentioned
on air.
John of God was a healer, butobviously if you came for
healing and you were on likedoctor prescribed medication, he

(09:33):
would make sure that you wouldcontinue taking your medication.
He literally didn't promisesuccess in cases and as he
became a very prominentcelebrity, largely on the back
of his appearances on the OprahWinfrey show, you know, just in
2014, he earned over $10 millionhe started to attract some very

(09:59):
serious people, oprah, who, inspite of her lapses in judgment
from time to time, it is stillconsidered a very serious person
.
She got her friends like BillClinton, naomi Campbell as well.
So anyway, she has shown apattern of not vetting,

(10:19):
particularly F scan.
You know claims that people haveabout being able to improve
health, fitness, wellness.
It's a nebulous set of claims,but this is an area that her
show was very, very good atamplifying some of the worst

(10:41):
voices.
We could do an entire episodeand I promise not to get too
bogged down.
But Dr Phil, he's not a doctor,but you wouldn't even know him
as America's favorite non-doctor.
Well, first he I think he was aconsultant on a lawsuit.

(11:01):
The beef industry was suingOprah for some stuff.
She said which separate point.
But even Oprah wasn't bigenough to tell you guys to eat
less meat.
You can't say eat less anything.
That'll step on lobbyist groups, even Oprah.
But she actually did win thatlawsuit and I think it was in

(11:22):
part at least this is what thestory.
Dr Phil he's not a doctorhelped her out with that lawsuit
and then she started bringinghim out on the show and then
actually America seemed to likethe no-nonsense, non-doctor.
But again, recounting all of DrPhil's scandals would literally
take its own episode.

(11:43):
So you guys probably saw moreof these play-outs than I even
did.
But he crashed Britney Spearsin the hospital room to cash in
on one of her breakdowns.
He aired a special that wasexploiting Shelley DeVall's
mental health issues, used aclip of her insisting that Robin

(12:03):
Williams, who was dead, wasshape-shifting.
Again, he's not a doctor, buthe continues to promote himself
that way.
He's promoted diabetes, drugsthat the FDA wasn't recommending
.
Yeah, oh, one other account,totally responsible especially
for Guy Marx himself as a doctorthere was allegedly vodka and

(12:25):
Xanax in the dressing rooms andI think he was actually
presenting to a guest that hadsubstance abuse issues for that
show.
But it'd be bad TV if they wenton there and not strung out.
So make sure you get the greenroom right, I guess.
But yeah, quite simply and thisis a danger, I guess, in talking

(12:46):
about people that are morepopular than myself, but the
facts do speak for themselves.
His little pop psychology stickis generally not regarded well
by anybody with degrees.
It's performed well ontelevision, but, yeah, we could

(13:06):
do an entire episode on justbullshit stuff that Dr Phil
promoted.
Similarly, we could do anotherfull episode and we kind of
touched on this guy and onecalled the doctors, but Dr Oz
that.
That is another televisioncharacter that we can thank
Oprah almost exclusively for.
So Oz also gave his seal ofapproval to John of God.

(13:30):
He's promoted homeopathy.
He has warned that geneticallymodified food is toxic.
I know that's also going to bepopular in some crowds, but
you're going to have to do alittle bit more with defining
your terms If you reallyunderstand what encompasses the

(13:50):
bin or the set of things thatare genetically modified foods.
Just that marker alone, gmo isfrankly not that meaningful and
incriminating as people like DrOz made people believe it was.
There's definitely validconcerns, but we do have to be a
little bit better and lesslanguid lazy with language if

(14:12):
we're trying to actually get inthere.
In 2014, he was literallybrought in front of a Senate
committee on consumer protectionand this was kind of to answer
for his shilling of a miraclebelly blaster and a mega
metabolism booster.
There was actually a study doneon I guess it was like 40

(14:38):
episodes of his show and fewerthan half of the recommendations
had any scientific backing.
Again, that would almost beenough damage done in the health
and fitness space.
But Oprah also gave JennyMcCarthy a very large platform

(15:01):
when she was discovering thework of Andrew Wakefield and
then amplifying and popularizinganti-vax.
I guess we do have to do thisbecause this now still touches
on kind of modern culture before.
It's not far enough in the pastthat I can just move through it
without establishing some basicfacts.

(15:23):
Dr Wakefield is the godfatherof the anti-vax movement.
He was actually recruited by anattorney and this was in
England.
They give inoculations therefor measles, mumps or belligest,
as we do.
But they actually have aprogram set up to pay for
anybody any of the side effects.

(15:45):
There are side effects to anyvaccine.
If it can be proven that youhave suffered side effects from
the vaccine, then there was aprogram that had money to award
damages to those people.
A lawyer comes to then DrWakefield and asks him to devise

(16:06):
a test so that he can identifypotential plaintiffs.
My philosophy of science, nerds, you're already there.
But this isn't how scienceworks.
You can't work back from aconclusion that you want to be
true.
That's exactly what Wakefielddid.
He came up with this test.
They identified some plaintiffs.

(16:27):
They won a lawsuit Again.
This is funny because a lot oftimes in the anti-vax world
you'll hear people say well,follow the money.
What I find is that they don'tdo that after saying that.
You'll notice I'm going to dothis on Oprah a little bit later
too.
But this is a good thing toactually do.
Don't just say follow the moneyand then point out abstractions

(16:51):
.
A lot of these moves are goingto be public, particularly
talking about a publicly tradedcompany.
There's going to be SEC filings.
There's going to be a trailAgain, because whatever, let's
just do it right into it.
I even had anti-vax friendsthat would say follow the money,
a big pharma, but then theywouldn't actually go and produce

(17:12):
the contracts.
A lot of times that's actuallywhere the devil is, in the
detail, as they say.
Big irony to me in the anti-vaxissue of people saying follow
the money, one of the actorsthat seemed to have the biggest
financial benefit was actuallyDr Wakefield.

(17:33):
Anyway, dr Wakefield didn'tstop there.
He ironically came out toCalifornia, where I live.
He went and started pitching toventure capital companies
something to replace the currentvaccine regiment in the United
States.
Unfortunately, told you, welike to do that follow the money

(17:56):
thing.
Well, they signed NDAs.
So we can't find out whichpeople gave him cash to go and
work, but we know the location.
It's just interesting that weknow that Wakefield came to
Silicon Valley, got some funding.
We don't know who his fundingwas but if, like me, you were

(18:16):
alive and in coastal Californiabefore, anti-vax was a COVID
identity marker.
It was actually a marker ofbeing an elite left-coast person
.
The two areas that I wouldencounter anti-vaxing the most
tended to be Marin County andthe West Side of Los Angeles.

(18:39):
These were almost alwaysneighborhoods that had walking
distance to a Whole Foods.
This was actually justsomething that I thought was
funny and watched.
Flip during the pandemic wasthat the previous anti-vax crowd
was predominantly coastalCalifornia, very well-educated,
very wealthy.
During the pandemic itobviously flipped into a less

(19:04):
educated cohort, but also justbecause of how much those two
particular cohorts don't likeeach other.
I've also lived in coastalCalifornia and rural America and
I hear the things that thoserespective groups say about one
another.
I do wish they had more touchpoints than me, because I think

(19:25):
it would have helped them atleast see some of the weaknesses
in their argument when theystarted seeing themselves sound
exactly like each other but atdifferent points.
I just think it would havegiven people pause.
Anyway, all of this fromMcCarthy, I got a little
sidetracked.
But anyway, jenny McCarthy, sheis the one who really
popularized all of Wakefield'swork, that whole scheme on

(19:51):
replacing the MMR thing.
It fell apart because basicallypeople ran, his study got
redacted, his medical licensegot pulled.
He is no longer Dr Wakefield,he's just Andrew Wakefield.
Now, again, we got a slightlydifferent iteration and a

(20:12):
slightly different cast ofcharacters.
That switched the pitch upslightly.
In COVID, all of thethroughlines of anti-vaxxing
really really started with JennyMcCarthy popularizing it on the
Oprah Winfrey Show.
And then I did actually pullone exchange from.
I think this was her firstappearance and I am pulling this

(20:36):
because I don't know if I'mgoing to find a bit of dialogue
that I hate more than what I amabout to read.
So here we go.
Jenny McCarthy First thing, Idid Google, I put in autism and
then I started my research.
Winfrey, thank God for GoogleMcCarthy.
I'm telling you, winfrey, thankGod for Google McCarthy.

(21:00):
The University of Google iswhere I got my degree from and I
put an autism and somethingcame up and that changed my life
, that led me on the road torecovery, which said autism
who's in the corner of thescreen is reversible and
treatable.
And I said what?
That has to be an ad for ahocus pocus thing, because
autism is reversible andtreatable.
But then it would be on Oprah.
So again, there are so manylevels, but the first thing I

(21:25):
want to highlight is back then,I guess doing your own research
and University of Google had notbecome pejoratives.
That would get you made fun offor citing.
So yeah, that's annoying seeingthat met with encouragement.
And then, just, I think thelast line also sums up at least

(21:48):
what I think the publicperception of health and the
fitness space is.
Is that well, if this was real,then it would be on Oprah.
And again, I'm nowhere near aspopular.
I don't have a podcast that isproducing anywhere near as much.
So this might sound like sourgrapes, but it's not.

(22:09):
It's just wrong.
Much of the health advice thatappears on Oprah has been
directly wrong the idea thatsomething appeared on Oprah so
it must be good.
I believe that's popularlyaccepted, but as I'm going to
keep trying to demonstrate,that's not a good signal.

(22:31):
In 2004, oprah was promoting thethread lift.
She had a guest, adermatologist, and called it the
closest thing you can get to afacelift without cutting.
The procedure actually involvedpoking of holes in the skin,
pulling threads through them andlifting the tissue up.
Doctors had warned that thethreads might cause irreversible

(22:52):
damage but, in classic Oprahstyle, none of those people were
brought onto the show todiscuss any of those things.
There was no discussion of anyconcerning side effects.
There was no follow-up, warningor retraction on the episode.
Again, still similar concern inhealth and beauty wrinkles

(23:14):
Thermage.
It was a $30,000 machine thatpromised to smooth wrinkles
using radio waves.
Again, same model Didn't talkabout side effects, potential
downsides.
Any experts that didn't havethe same opinion didn't discuss
the burning, the scars, theagonizing pain.
Even the CEO of Thermage, fiveyears later, when interviewed in

(23:37):
Newsweek, said that he wasactually uncomfortable with how
Oprah marketed it on the show.
That's not even coming fromdetractors.
All right, this might be twoparts here.
This might be the most annoyingthing to me personally that
Oprah made popular First.

(23:58):
Anybody out there remember JamesArthur Ray?
He is now most famous forparticipants in one of his
little workshops, three of themdying in a sweat lodge with him.
Ray appeared multiple times onthe Oprah Winfrey show.

(24:18):
She has endorsed his thinkingmultiple times.
His thinking, in a way,actually isn't even that
controversial.
I think this is very wellaccepted.
But he really pushes that ideaof the law of attraction.
He was the narrator for themovie the Secret, then second

(24:40):
part, the Secret Quick Diatribe.
It seems like so many peopletoday, when they get into their
decadence narratives or whatwent wrong with my generation,
the stock answer is alwayspostmodernism.
I've actually asked a lot of myfriends like, hey, have you
read Foucault or Derrida?

(25:01):
And they're like what the fuckis that?
Again, I don't actually thinkthere's any real evidence that
my generation millennials justgot all hopped up on
postmodernism and that's whatcreated the modern culture that
we're in.
That everybody seems to agreekind of sucks.
No, I think it's unfair toblame it on those philosophers

(25:22):
that I've read and I don't knowanybody else in my generation
who has.
When I was actually in collegeit got so annoying to me that it
seemed like every single girl Imet had read a book called the
Secret.
The Secret was pushing thisidea that basically just

(25:43):
anything that you wanted in lifeyou could just basically
manifest.
Think about it.
Maybe we got some secretreaders and I'm probably not
doing it justice, but it's notfar off of that.
Anyway, I honestly think thatif, when you combine the Secret
and then this book that theygave me in the business

(26:03):
department this was a marketingtext when I was coming through,
but it was called Brand you andit foretold of this era and the
future, this coming utopia,where we would all have
individual brands, we'd allmarket ourselves and all the
world's problems would be gone,anyway, brand you, the

(26:25):
individual brand, marketing plusthe Secret, this idea that you
can just manifest, any idea thatyou have in your head, at least
in my opinion, I think thosetwo books are far more
representative of where weactually are at in modern
culture, what people areactually doing with their time

(26:47):
and their personal strivings.
But yeah, that's not a verypopular theory, like most of the
ones that I have, but I canprove that far more people alive
today have actually read thosebooks.
One of the ways I can prove itwas.
That was one of Oprah's biggestsuccesses on Oprah's book club.
Millions of people have readthe Secret and I was probably

(27:12):
going to do this later, butlet's just do it now.
While I'm trashing the Secret, afriend of mine recently asked
me do I believe in manifesting?
Because we had lived togetherat one point, I was almost
shocked that that question hadto be asked, but I said,
obviously no, I do not.
I'm like you had a front rowseat and you kind of got to see

(27:35):
how I you know good, bad,indifferent how I got whatever
results I got, and I'm like Ididn't manifest anything, dude,
like I worked my ass off.
And so, yeah, I'm not throwinglike my results as the best in
the world, but it's justanything I got.
It came from like actuallygetting up and doing things.

(28:00):
There wasn't a lot of visionboards and, yeah, we got some
Law of Attraction devotees.
Now, that's my mistake.
Right, that's where it wentwrong.
I'll counter that too, though.
If you guys were right on theLaw of Attraction, wouldn't a
lot more people be married topeople whose names they scrolled
down in their notebooks inelementary school?
It seems like everybody triesmanifesting like before they

(28:25):
even get out of elementaryschool and I also think most
people move on from it, you know, in about the same time kind of
realizing that it doesn'tactually work.
I think you're going to find farmore examples of vision
boarding and manifesting notworking than it working and
frankly, I know you got examplesof it doing it too.

(28:46):
But I could also show youplacebo effect and people being
convinced that a medicine wasgoing to do something.
It didn't do anything and thenit quote unquote worked.
So you don't need to convinceme that positive thinking is
good.
But I think where we'redisagreeing if you believe in

(29:06):
things like the Law ofAttraction or the Secret is on
the limits, and I probably havethe limits being way lower than
you if that's something that youfound attractive.
But anyway, this was admittedlyone of my least favorite ideas
that was ever promoted, andlet's just flag it because I
think this is actually going tocircle back into a little bit of

(29:27):
my critique of where Oprah nowfinds herself on weight loss
drugs.
But anyways, just to sum allthat up, I actually did edit
some of those out.
I want to jump into the nextsection, otherwise we're not
going to have time to get theretoday.
But, in short, oprah's showcomes on in what?
86?
I am trying to be honest andnot thrown to the bus by any

(29:49):
stretch.
Incredibly successful buildingthe show, but she repeatedly has
showed a blindness or weaknessfor crackpots and quack medical
theories.
She has been one of the biggestand most powerful enablers of

(30:10):
bad ideas in my lifetime whenshe is promoting a
pseudoscientific practice.
There's just a general patternbrought it up here and I think
we might circle back to it alittle bit later.
So basically it's the old snakeoil salesman from the West.
That's nothing new that wehaven't talked about.

(30:31):
But she promises an effect thatseems too good to be true.
She'll bring out an expert airquotes to confirm the effect.
What you're not going to hearis any experts that don't share
that opinion.
You're probably going to seesome anecdotes or some real life
viewers like you claiming tofeel rejuvenated 40 years or

(30:55):
whatever the product is claiming.
That to me, is the pattern thatis shown in every single one of
the things that we mentionedand countless others that I
don't think we have time to jumpinto today.
So anyway, we're going to speedit up now and then get up to

(31:16):
her current weight loss specialthat just aired last night.
But I did have to consult mywife on this.
She's up on other aspects ofthe story that I'm not, so
anyway, my authority is my wife.
She told me that rumors hadstarted swirling that Oprah had

(31:37):
been using some weight lossmedications.
I guess she denied that.
So now I was actually able tofind that denial.
So yeah, she was actuallysomewhat recently on a panel for
Oprah Daily.
That's one of her shows.

(31:57):
But for an Oprah Daily, thelife you want class the state of
weight.
So quote that came out fromthat show was that shouldn't we
all just be more accepting ofwhatever body you choose to be
in no disagreement here.
That should be your choice.
I totally agree.
Even when I started hearingabout the weight loss drugs, at

(32:19):
the same time I was goingthrough knee surgery and I felt
I've got to do this on my ownBecause if I take the drug,
that's the easy way out.
So, yeah, that, I think, waswhere she caught a little bit of
flak, probably from people whowere using the drug, with her
saying they're taking the easyway out.
Maybe they didn't feel that way.

(32:41):
But then also people startnoticing that it looks like
Oprah is losing weight.
And then I want to be carefulwhen I talk about this because I
don't want to pile on the wayother people have discussed
Oprah's weight in the past.
I actually think that's areally, really fair criticism
she throws at people that talkabout her weight.

(33:01):
So I'm going to rake her overfor not vetting the people she's
brought on her show, but Idon't really want to echo some
of the bullshit that she hasdealt with and I think, kind of
informs her position on this inways.
So Please keep your direction.
Thank you, yeah, but just theidea.
I think it was probably takingpeople off, the idea that they

(33:22):
were taking the easy way out ifthey had chosen to use weight
loss drugs.
And then again, with justavailable pictures of her losing
weight and people justconstantly analyzing and taking
interest in that, I guess therewas suspicion starting to rise

(33:42):
that she was actually taking theweight loss drugs herself.
And then, yeah, so I didn'ttrack down exactly what the
event was, but then I guess youknow, smoke, there's fire.
She just decided to get out infront of it and confirm that,
yes, I have been taking them andthat has been helpful in the
weight loss that she currentlyhas One point of order before we

(34:06):
dive into the show and thisagain, or into her show.
We're 30 minutes into my show,but no.
So one thing she actually saidwhen she was promoting this
episode that just dropped lastnight before it came out.
But she mentioned that she wasdivesting from Weight Watchers

(34:28):
because she wanted to be able tospeak plainly and openly in
this special and she didn't wantthere to be any idea of a
conflict of interest out there.
And again, I'm a jerk, but it'slike when you say something
like that, you're actually justbegging me to check.
So when she said, I'm divestingmy shares, there's no conflict

(34:48):
of interest.
Translation to me,unfortunately, was Simon, you
should go check this and see ifyou can identify a conflict of
interest.
So anyway, what I did find wasthat she took a 10% stake in
Weight Watchers, which is WeightWatchers International.
That's going to be WW if youguys want to trade on that.

(35:10):
But anyway, she took herposition in 2015.
She became a 10% shareholder inthe company and she was on the
board.
So when she took the position,the shares were valued at
roughly $6 a share.
When she is selling theposition today, the shares are

(35:31):
valued at roughly $2.88.
Since yesterday the positionmaybe was already liquidated, I
don't know.
But what I can tell you fromwhat I know about that is that's
a loss.
And I don't really bring thatup because when you sell a
position that's down, that'sactually a tax write-off.
It's March, taxes are coming inApril.

(35:55):
Right, everybody does that and,yeah, at least in my world.
Sometimes you sell well, not inmy world.
I like to trade, somethingthat's smart to do at the end of
the year.
If you're down on a position,it's tax loss harvesting.
You might as well realize aloss so you can reduce your
taxable liability.
And if you have some gains orsome winners particularly if

(36:17):
you're a big trader like Oprahyou don't sell those, you should
actually take out a loanagainst that equity position to
get income off of that.
As long as you don't sell it,you're never going to realize a
gain, so there's no taxablefootprint there.
And then let's say that youtook out a loan based on that
stake.
You can actually get paid by abank and then any interest if
you have any.

(36:38):
That's all tax deductible.
So anyway, a lot of this to meactually doesn't look like this
just completely nullifies anyconflict of interest.
It just looks like tax lossharvesting to me and then, in
typical Oprah style, getting toput a really nice spin on that,
like while you're savingyourself millions in taxes and

(37:02):
then so not only she's sellingthe shares but now she's going
to donate them to a charitableorganization, because that again
nullifies any idea that therecould be a conflict of interest
with Oprah at all, and it's agreat charity and I'm sure they
need the money.
But then I also did look and Ifound that the contribution she
is giving is roughly 0.6, lessthan 1%.

(37:24):
0.6% of her net worth is thesize of the donation.
And then again, not anaccountant, but I bet she's got
a good one.
And when you sell off aposition at a loss and then
donate the proceeds, I'm prettysure that gets you out of a few
million dollars in taxableincome.
But again, maybe we have anaccountant listening in who

(37:46):
could weigh in.
I could just be too jaded.
That is a very, very legitimatepossibility in this.
But yeah, I'll be honest, Ithink that potentially there
could still be some conflicts ofinterest.
But yeah, with that out of theway, I am now actually ready to
start talking about what wasactually in the show.

(38:09):
So the short version.
It was an hour long infomercialfor Ozempic.
Well, not necessarily Ozempicwasn't named Weight loss drugs
in general, so let's see Oprahin her words.
So I decided to do this becausethis special was really

(38:29):
important to me and I wanted tobe able to talk about whatever I
wanted to talk about, andWeight Watchers is now in the
business of being a weighthealth company that also
administers drug medications forweight.
I did not want to have anyappearance of conflict of
interest.
So, yeah, anyway, we alreadyaddressed that up front.
I'm not sure that I buy intothat.
It seems a little bit morelikely that the public just

(38:50):
caught on to the fact that shewas using these drugs.
The Weight Watchers positionwasn't doing well anyway and
there's a lot of otheropportunities.
Obviously, they're even gettingpushed back on their program,
so it was potentially just agood time to step away.
She also said I've been in thestorm of losing the weight,

(39:11):
gaining it back, losing theweight, gaining it back, and
what I've realized when Ilistened to what the doctor said
, that you're always going toput it back on and it's like
holding your breath underwater,trying not to rise.
You are always going to rise.
I actually feel a lot ofsympathy for this bit here,
because that is essentially itand this is what I have seen so

(39:35):
many of my clients struggle withand talk about.
So, again, I find this actuallyto be something that is
probably going to strike a chordwith anybody who has struggled
hard against trying to loseweight.
Again, some of the ideas thatOprah has promoted certainly
didn't help them in that goaland might have led to that
frustration, but at least I canvery much agree with the

(39:57):
sentiment Oprah goes on.
It's a very personal topic forme and the hundreds of millions
of people impacted around theglobe who have for years
struggled with weight andobesity.
This special will bringtogether medical experts,
leaders in the space and peoplein the data stage struggle to
talk about health, equity andobesity with the intention of
ultimately to release the shame,the judgment and the stigma

(40:20):
surrounding weight.
All right, so here's the bitthat I want to highlight in
there, because she said thatthey're going to bring together
medical experts, leaders in thespace and people.
Can I just bring you guys backto the model earlier?
She did not bring in medicalexperts on multiple perspectives
on this issue.
She brought in one perspectiveand then she brought in

(40:44):
anecdotes supporting thatperspective, unfortunately, but
yeah, so again, I do think thatall of these anecdotes are
really going to resonate andagain, while I really feel what
she's going through in terms ofthe stress, the strain and how

(41:05):
frustrating it all is, I lackthe sympathy that I have for my
own clients personally.
Again, getting back to that,she is literally the person who
promoted so many of these badideas that have made people feel
that way about their weightloss take.
I still hold on to that.

(41:26):
There's multiple doctors, buttwo doctors that were not
skeptical at all of the weightloss drugs.
If you've already heard my takeon it, I'm not in possession of
any knowledge.
No one else has, but I'm justpointing out that was not a
balanced take.

(41:46):
If she's advertising that sheis bringing out experts, she
should really do that on bothends of the issue and let the
audience decide for themselves,not kind of talking about
leading the horse to water.
It's like she's just pushingthem in.
Then, admittedly, my judgmentsare coming out a little bit and

(42:07):
trying not to, but no, I justkind of noticed that she kind of
again, others did too but she'shad an evolving take, if you
will, on weight loss drugs.
We've got the statement a whileback how that would be taking
the easy way out.
Now she is adapting it.

(42:31):
She said that all these years Ithought all the people who never
had to diet and were just usingtheir willpower and they were
for some reason stronger than me.
Now I realized that you allweren't even thinking about the
food.
It's not that you had thewillpower, you weren't obsessing
about it.
So this is where I'm going togo off on my willpower rant.

(42:54):
But I've literally been doingthis for over 10 years.
I actually like what Oprah'ssaying, but it still makes me
mad.
Here's why, for literally overa decade, I've been telling all
my clients that I don't believein willpower.
A lot of times people look atme and think that I possess this
amazing willpower, and I'vetold people again and again I

(43:17):
don't have that thing.
That thing you think I have.
I don't have it.
What I am good at is setting upsystems, practices and
protocols.
The reason I say I'm good atthat is I am good at setting up
systems that don't requirewillpower.
When I say that I have a goodsystem, or this one's better

(43:40):
than that one, that'sessentially what I'm meaning is,
if a program requires lesswillpower, it's a better program
in my book.
If a program relies on willpoweror hype or motivation Beast
Mode or your favorite song oranything admittedly, I would
actually expect that to fail.

(44:01):
I would be pleasantly surprisedif it worked, but I would never
be disappointed when it didn't,because I actually expect
programs that rely on hype,motivation, willpower,
inspiration.
This is why I'm never going tobe as popular as Oprah, and I
know it.
But I'm not saying things in away that makes people feel good

(44:25):
about it.
But it's true it's a lot betterto make people feel that or
give them false hope.
I don't really like to do that.
Obviously, it's weird.
It can seem like more of adowner to say that you don't
believe in willpower, because Ithink people take that as like

(44:47):
I'm not believing in agency orautonomy.
It isn't that.
More accurately, it's not thatI literally don't believe in
willpower.
I just almost think ofwillpower as like anything else,
like a muscle or something thatcan get fatigued or a resource
that can get used up.
Actually, this was somethingthat I feel I learned from

(45:07):
listening to one of my clientsmany years ago, but a director
that I work with was beatinghimself up, doing the blame and
shame and all that stuff over adonut that he ate at craft
service.
When we talked about how theday went, it kind of emerged
that he had walked by that tablelike 20 times and on the 21st
trip he finally grabbed thedonut.

(45:28):
Then, like a lightning bolt hadjust kind of hit me and I was
like dude, it wasn't yourwillpower that failed, it was
your catering service.
At first he didn't quite getwhat I was saying and I was like
dude, you're the director.
Why the fuck are donuts on yourset if you're not trying to eat
them?
Obviously, I know how the setgoes.
It's not there for himexplicitly, it's there to make

(45:50):
people happy.
Whatever.
The point wasn't lost that yougot to control what you can
control Again in his situation,when you walk past first 20
times, when you walk past craftservice, willpower worked just
fine.
You know what I mean.
The problem wasn't actuallywillpower, the problem was that
he was actually just in aprogram or a system that

(46:11):
required using it too much.
Anyway, that is what I've kindof thought my superpower
actually is.
It is not what people think itis.
I'm not a monk.
I don't really have that goingon in my life.
What I am good at is setting upplans, setting up protocols and
practices where I don't have touse my finite energy, if you

(46:36):
will.
That's what I actually think.
I'm not good at not eatingtasty food.
What I am good at is not buyingtasty food.
I'm really good at not bringingit into my house, but if you
come over to my house with tastyfood, I'm going to eat it.
If I go over to your house, I'mgoing to eat all your tasty
food.

(46:56):
I don't have that ability.
I know exactly how to set upplans when you don't think that
you have willpower.
That's my whole game, believeit or not.
Anyway, one other point that Iwant to point out that I think
is coming out of Oprah'sstatements from the show.

(47:18):
He is now starting to talkabout obesity as a disease.
I think for some people's earsthis is going to sound new.
That's certainly not what theywere talking about over at
Weight Watchers.
That was obviously the personalresponsibility, that angle.
Obviously, I just want to stayup real quick.

(47:41):
That obviously works to someextent, but I honestly think and
I'm going to circle back tothis when I finish up.
Let's say again that somebodycame to you not for fitness
advice, but they came forfinance advice and they're like
hey, how do I get rich?
The advice I gave you was okay,listen up, pay attention,
here's what you're going to doEnd less than you make.

(48:03):
I don't think many peopleactually need that advice, and
that to me is like the sameadvice for weight loss as saying
eat fewer calories than youburn.
Again, the devil's in thedetail there.
I think most people actuallykind of already got that basic,

(48:26):
banal, mundane-ass observation.
So, yeah, that's like my onlycritique.
It's like well, of course itworks, but was that really what
people were hung up on?
I've seen some debates in weirdcorners of the internet, but I
don't think that's actually thebig hang up.
I honestly think most peoplealready knew that.
I think the reason thatstrategy didn't work is it

(48:47):
didn't tell people how to getthat done in spite of the modern
world.
That is actually going to be alot more meaningful than just
like oh thanks, eat less.
God, I didn't know.
Yeah, that's, it's dumb tothink that that's what people
were missing, quite frankly.
But anyway, I get it that myresponsibility crowd.

(49:09):
They kind of react real hardagainst this framing of obesity
as a disease, but also want toremind you guys, that's not me,
that was the American MedicalAssociation in 2013.
They totally voted to defineobesity as a disease.
So that's what it is.
They were not alone, not theonly medical organization to

(49:32):
signify it as such the AmericanAssociation of Clinical
Endocrinology, the EndocrineSociety, american College of
Cardiology, american HeartAssociation so these are all
different groups that have saidthat obesity is a disease.
The more intelligent counter tothat is not like some people

(49:58):
that are like, ah, this is justculture gone soft or whatever
like, and they're just doingculture war, takes for
everything.
That's a non-intelligent way tocritique obesity as disease.
I think a more thoughtful andwell-placed counter would be
that you know that there are,and some people have argued that
it shouldn't be considered adisease simply, or their

(50:20):
rationale being rather thatbecause it's actually possible
to be obese and healthy at thesame time, so that it doesn't
because somebody is obesedoesn't mean they're unhealthy.
There's some criticism of thatclaim that does get into
different health markers andjust stating that, well,
actually obesity is a prettygood predictor of a lot of the

(50:41):
markers.
I don't think that there is.
I actually don't think it isobvious whether obesity is or is
not a disease, because even theterm disease itself is going to
be a little bit nebulous indefinition.
The part that I actually thinkis useful in this why I'm not

(51:02):
one of those personalresponsibility guys that bitches
about this distinction is that,you know, this language
actually doesn't matter thatmuch to us, but the party that
it matters a lot to is insurancecompanies.
So when obesity is a disease,it allows obviously for

(51:25):
different money to be able tocome in and finance and
subsidize.
So again, just being totallyhonest, this in a way could open
a door where people might beable to get training that was
through health insurance orother things like that.
So again, you know what I dofor a job.
I am a personal trainer.
So this could be me likeeverybody else, with a

(51:45):
microphone, just speaking myagenda and speaking my book.
That would be good for me if Icould bill people's insurance
instead of pulling it out oftheir bank account whenever we
train.
But yeah, I don't mind.
Maybe that's just myprofessional bias speaking, but
I also do actually believe thereare a lot of health problems
where one of the first stopsshould actually be exercise or

(52:08):
some form of training.
So if reclassifying obesity asa disease opens up certain types
of treatment, namely training,that I am supporting, obviously
I don't think that's a bad thing.
Where I do want to express justa little bit of hesitation is

(52:28):
that obviously.
The other thing is I see thisopening up the ability for
people to prescribe drugs thatthat's the more likely outcome
than people getting intotraining with the existing lobby
groups the way they are.
The reason this was probablyclassified as such in that
medical language is so that wecan start to subsidize these
drugs that we find ourselvestalking about today.

(52:49):
Yeah, that being said, my fullthoughts are in another episode.
But I'm also not dog-medicallyagainst the weight loss drugs in
any way, shape or form.
I think there are somepopulations that would be better
than others candidates forusing, but it doesn't bother me

(53:10):
that people are going to haveaccess to weight loss drugs and
potentially get these coveredthrough their insurance.
I just hope that we alsoconsider other things besides
drugs worthy of subsidizing,quite frankly.
But anyway, last thing I want tofinish on because I did say a

(53:30):
number of critical things aboutOprah's show, at the same time
that I am critical of her showand the health and fitness
information she's put out there.
I also think in one sense shevery much is a victim of a lot
of these bad ideas herself.

(53:50):
I also actually have a greatdeal of sympathy and stuff like
this.
She said for 25 years makingfun of my weight was national
sport.
In an effort to combat all theshame, I starved myself for
nearly five months and then Iwheeled out that wagon of fat

(54:11):
and the internet will never letme forget.
After losing 67 pounds on aliquid diet the next day y'all
the very next day I started togain it back.
When I hear her saying thingslike this, I honestly have
absolutely nothing butcompassion and sympathy.
Well, believe it or not, Iactually have empathy for what

(54:32):
she's describing because it'sbeen a really long time since
anybody made fun of my weight.
No one does that anymore, butit totally did happen.
So oftentimes people look at menow and think, oh, he doesn't
know what that's like, he'snever experienced any of that.
But no, just so you know, itwas sport in my family to line

(54:55):
everybody up by height and,lucky me, I was the shortest but
not the youngest and, aseverybody else told me, the
fattest.
I also didn't eat the food thateverybody else in my family ate
, so that also made me stick out, and so, basically, from the
time I was a child, my eatingand my body were constant

(55:19):
sources of conversation andmockery from other people.
And so, no, the part thatreally resonates with me and the
truth is a lot of that mocking.
I'll be honest, that has a lotto do with who I am today.
I didn't always have positivethoughts about it and, yeah, it
sucks for you if you were one ofthose people that was mocking

(55:40):
me, but I have literally brokendown exactly how I would kick
your ass in the boxing gym.
The only problem is and thisjust sucks if you ever get into
training, none of those peopleever talk to me that way again
and they pretend like it didn'teven happen.
Now, but, yeah, so it sucksbecause I prepared for this
little fight where I was goingto kick the shit out of them for

(56:01):
years and then, once I showedup out of their weight class,
nobody wanted any smoke anymore.
So, anyway, it's annoying, butagain, I've had many, many years
to think about those feelings,think about the way those people
made me feel, think about thechoices that I made and, yeah,

(56:23):
so I won.
I don't think I did it right.
I just think that I learnedgoing through that.
And one thing that I just wantto remind anybody if you have
people that are talking to youthe way the internet talks at
Oprah, or you got people talkingto you the way people talked to
me when I was younger a new kid, shortest dude in the family

(56:48):
Again, this didn't help me whenI was going through it and I
think people probably even toldme this, but I didn't really get
it until a lot later.
But it really is true thatwhatever people say to you are
actually just projections oftheir own values, if you will
and I know that sounds trite andit sounds, but I'm telling you
it's actually true.

(57:09):
What they're really saying is Iwould feel this way if X
happened to me.
They're not actually commentingon your situation.
They're commenting on basicallyhow they would feel if they
were in that situation.
As I've gotten older, one of thethings that I've actually just

(57:32):
gotten more certain of is my ownvalues, and so that's why, in a
way, people haven't stoppedjudging the way I look.
It's just a differentconversation now.
When I was a kid, I was too fat, I didn't eat the right foods
or whatever, and now I'm inshape.
So I'm too in shape.

(57:52):
Or you should eat this or comeon, you can have that.
People have never stoppedhaving opinions about what I
should or shouldn't do with myfood and with my body.
So, believe it or not, I knowexactly what Oprah's talking
about there, but what I can sayis honestly changed in me and
I'm not trying to be funny, butit's in caring what people say

(58:16):
and there's a very, very shortlist of people that I actually
care what they think about meand might only be my daughter.
She's definitely number one andI don't know where the rest to
anyone else falls, but maybethere's other people on that
list, but no, just for me.

(58:37):
As I've gotten older, I careless and less, particularly
about what people who don't havemy values think about what I'm
doing.
I've never been in thatsituation that Oprah's, in
having strangers online take aninterest in me, but on that
token, I do go online and thealgorithm definitely serves me
up the thoughts of everybodythat hates my demographic on a

(59:00):
daily basis.
I know all the things thatboomers who hate millennials say
.
I know all the things that GenZ hates about millennials or if
they're the type of people whoare pined on that.
I know all the cringy thingsthat I do as a parent.
I know all the styles.
I know everything that peoplesay is stupid and awful about me
.
I don't really care, eventhough the internet keeps

(59:24):
begging me to care about whatstrangers think about me.
In one sense, I just want toremind people that nobody can
shame you if you don't sharetheir values.
Whatever they're saying to youis probably just a sad
reflection of their own.
I guess I just finished it upwith a David Foster.

(59:45):
Wallace thought you'd neverworry what people think about
you if you realize how seldomthey do.
Particularly for Oprah'ssituation, where these are
strangers online.
I take her at face value thatshe has been made to feel that
way.
It's unnatural why she caresabout what those people are
saying.
That's what I'd be talkingabout if she ever wanted to hear

(01:00:09):
from somebody like me.
I would also get her off allthose bullshit fad diets and all
that other crap.
But no, first thing I wouldtalk about is why the hell do
you care about what people whoobviously don't share your
values think about you?
I wouldn't only tell that toher.
I would tell that to everybody.
Last bit, I'm going to finishup on this.
I'm actually glad the Oprah hasevolved in this way.

(01:00:34):
I briefly touched on this, but Ido want to finish here.
It's not necessarily a positivepoint to close on, but if you
look at a least commondenominator in pretty much all
of the advice that Oprah hasgiven to her fans and the people
who had invested time in herover the years, she's always
telling her audience that theyneed to change something about

(01:00:56):
themselves.
She's never looked at anysystemic causes.
Again, let's flip it.
We're not talking fitness.
She's done a lot of fitnessadvice, but she doesn't only do
that.
What if we took the fitnessadvice that she really liked to
give?
Again, we put it into thefinancial world.
Sorry, we're going to flip it.
I already did that one for youguys.

(01:01:17):
We're going to take Oprah'sfitness goal and I'm going to
give her the financial advicethat she gave everybody for
years on her own show.
If I were to use the secret,the James Earl Ray, the Oprah
approved methods and she told mewhat her fitness goal was.
Well, I would tell her.
Of course, put a picture of thebody you want up on a wall, set

(01:01:39):
some intentions, think about itthe right way, though Don't do
it the wrong way.
You got to think about it theright way, then it's coming.
Those gains are coming for you.
If it doesn't work well, youdidn't want it enough, or maybe
you didn't say the intention'sright or whatever.
Again, I'm actually glad to seethat Oprah is evolving on this

(01:02:06):
issue, because for many years Ithink that was one of the things
that was so frustrating forOprah and anybody else that was
struggling with it is that theywere constantly being told that
if you haven't gotten have, youhaven't lost the weight by now.
It's just that you don't wantit bad enough.
You're just not prioritizing.
I think those people living itfeeling it could actually feel

(01:02:29):
how stupid that was and howthere was something missing in
the advice they were getting.
It wasn't wrong, but it justsomehow wasn't applicable or
didn't matter to their situation.
Again, I think it's fair to saythat that's what the secret
sounds like to somebody who'sworking 40 hours a week and has

(01:02:50):
a kid, or if you have wages thatjust barely cover living
expenses.
There's nothing wrong withpositive thinking, but we do
need to be balanced and be alittle bit more honest about the
limitations.
No matter what you're doing,think positive while you're
doing it, but if you reallythink that's going to control

(01:03:13):
the result, honestly you'resetting yourself up for a lot of
disappointment.
Anyway, just the fact that shehas now realized that in the
realm of weight loss thatherself and many others like or
have been experiencing, dare Isay, some systemic or structural
challenges, I think herrealizing that in the realm of

(01:03:38):
fitness is a powerfulrealization that I hope she can
put into other aspects Because,again, her show already is crazy
popular.
She will continue to be so.
So, anyway, I know that thishas been something that's been
very trying for her over theyears.

(01:03:59):
No matter what people feel aboutweight loss drugs I'm not
really caring to opine on thatright now I think in her
articulating that there are somestomach challenges and things
that can make it different fordifferent people, actually,
because I said a lot of criticalthings, I want to applaud just
that general direction and Ireally hope that we see more of

(01:04:23):
that in other realms.
Last thing I want to say isthat just because I've covered
Osempic and now I've talkedabout Oprah covering, I really
and again not trying todisparage Oprah anyway, but when

(01:04:43):
I got into making a podcast, Ihonestly one of my goals has
truly to be like the anti OprahGwyneth Paltrow, joe Rogan and
I'm not saying they're badpeople.
I'm trying to approach theseissues in a very different way
than they do with theirplatforms and their shows.

(01:05:06):
So, all that to say, I reallywouldn't want somebody to walk
away from this discussionthinking that you know
everything you need to knowabout Osempic.
I hope that this is just apiece of what you're using to
inform your choices.
I did one episode earlier andthis one.
Even if you listen to both ofthose, I just think that that's

(01:05:31):
a good place for you to startgathering information.
I don't want to ever put out theinformation that I'm sharing
with you guys as an end all beall or push myself into some
guru status.
I really, really don't seemyself that way.
If I have a call of action foryou today, I would just say

(01:05:56):
continue to inform yourself onthe issue.
If you know anybody who you'vebeen having this discussion with
, by all means make sure toshare this episode, the last one
we did.
But again, I'm nobody's prophet, I'm nobody's guru.
That was a line that TonyRobbins, of all people, took
into selling a book.
So, anyway, I actually mean it.

(01:06:18):
There ain't going to be no baitand switch guys.
There's still no discount code,no, nothing to throw out there.
I really hope, though, that thestuff that we are putting out is
helping you guys get a morebalanced perspective on the
issues that are turning outthere in health and fitness, and
I really hope that our show,our little time here together,

(01:06:41):
can be very, very different fromhow the health and fitness
space has been, at least for mylifetime, and, as we've talked
about here, it was going thatway a lot before.
So, anyway, I know we're upagainst.
I don't have delusions ofgrandeur or anything, but anyway
, if you guys are getting valueout of this, make sure to share,
comment like do all that stuffJust in a small way.

(01:07:03):
Let's just try to make thefitness space just a little bit
smarter place.
That's what we're here for.
Anyway, guys, with that,remember, mind and muscle are
inseparably intertwined.
There are no gains withoutbrains.
Keep lifting and learning.
I'll do the same.