May 23, 2024 • 56 mins
Ever struggled to pull off a perfect pull-up or been left scratching your head at the latest health trends? Join your host, Simon DeVere, for an episode that promises to transform your grip on both fitness and wellness wisdom. We'll start by conquering the pull-up, a feat that eludes many, by breaking down a training strategy that's guaranteed to hoist you over that bar. Alongside, I'll peel back the layers of Athletic Greens, through a lens colored by Dr. Rhonda Patrick's insights and my own hands-on experience.
Navigating the murky depths of scientific representation, we wade into the controversy that's swirled around Andrew Huberman's cannabis research comments. Leaning on my cannabis cultivation background, we'll untangle the indica versus sativa debate and stress the weighty responsibility on figures like Huberman to deliver precise scientific communication. Switching gears, we'll reflect on the intermittent fasting phenomenon, tracing its historical roots, and dissecting its modern allure—questioning why something so steeped in antiquity still captivates today's health seekers.
As we wrap up, we critically assess the fasting craze and hold accountable public figures who shape the health and wellness narrative. From Athletic Greens to fasting fads, we underscore the importance of informed skepticism and constructive engagement. So, lace up your mental sneakers and prepare to flex those neurons as we embark on a cerebral workout aimed at cultivating both a stronger physique and an enlightened mind.
Producer: Thor Benander
Editor: Luke Morey
Intro Theme: Ajax Benander
Intro: Timothy Durant
For more, visit Simon at The Antagonist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon DeVere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place we study the history, science and philosophy behind
everything in health and fitness.
Today I am Simon Devere andthere's nothing new, except all
(00:29):
that has been forgotten.
Anyway, guys, fingers crossed,had some audio disruptions
coming through the house lastcouple of weeks, so I hope I got
a good time, but we'll see ifmy dogs and my daughter want to
comply with my plans today.
But yeah, so I got four thingsI want to run down with you guys
(00:51):
.
So we're going to talk todayabout how to get better at
pull-ups If you can't currentlydo one.
I see pull-ups in a lot ofprograms, including my own, but
yeah, common problem is a lot ofpeople actually can't even do
one.
So we're going to kind ofoutline and identify how you
(01:11):
could get your first pull-up.
That's something that youhaven't done and then all those
programs with pull-ups in thembecome fair game for you.
Let's also touch in.
I saw a cool video from DrRhonda Patrick critiquing
Athletic Greens Cool video.
I was a user of the product fora while not currently using it,
(01:35):
but video helped me solidifywhat I think my views are on the
product.
We're going to revisit Focus ofa recent show, but we're going
to actually touch on AndrewHuberman One more time.
He actually got some scientistsin the field of cannabis upset
(01:55):
with some of the informationhe's promoting there.
So let's just run down whatHuberman's saying, what the
scientists are saying.
Oh, and then actually I justsaw it in the news this morning.
I already had this ready totalk about anyway, but he
actually just signed a deal withWME, big agency here, that hit
Variety.
(02:15):
So, no, I think it's a timelyand important discussion because
he already has the number onerated fitness show.
With a partnership like that,it's certainly going to be
getting even bigger.
So, yeah, I at least I'm noscientist, I am on, or at least
I'm a fan of the evidence-basedcommunity.
So, you know, hoping that hemakes a turn back, you know, to
(02:41):
that.
And then last thing we're goingto touch on I know I've been
beating it up lately, but youknow great article that I saw in
the Atlantic that was calledthe fad diet.
To end all fad diets focused onintermittent fasting.
Liked a lot of the observationsin there.
And then couple pieces that Ijust wanted to add in my
thoughts too, since I know thosewere some ideas that are
(03:03):
circulating out there.
But anyway, it's actually goingto probably take me a minute to
get through, so let's go aheadand jump right in.
Let's start with your workoutfirst.
So I really do want to talkabout how to get better at
pull-ups, particularly forpeople who can't do one.
Pull-ups really are one of thebest upper body movements,
(03:26):
particularly for your back,obviously, but that's why you
see them in so many programs, inspite of the fact that there's
actually a lot of people outthere who can't do one.
So, anyway, if this is you, um,that would be a great goal to
(03:50):
train towards.
You'd get tons of benefits uh,from that.
Uh, improved grip strength.
That's going to have a lot ofcarry over to um, just being
more generally useful in life Um, one of the best anti-aging you
know traits to have good grip.
Um, they're actually great forcore.
I know that people are going tothink of the back of the biceps
(04:11):
with your pull-ups chin-ups but, um, remember, core is actually
the ability to stabilize yourspine, so you're going to get a
lot of that throughout the rangeof motion of your pull-up.
Hanging from a pull-up bar, usmeathead trainers oftentimes
call the poor man's chiropractor.
It's going to improve posture,help stabilize the shoulders.
(04:34):
You'll get some spinaldecompression, some elongating
of the spine.
Enhances shoulder flexibilityand stability, which then you
know why're good for forwarm-ups in general practice is,
uh, in the context of training,can reduce your injury risk.
If you've got a, you know, good, uh, good hang, and then
(04:55):
obviously, mastery of thepull-up, even better.
Um, can't really put this in.
You know the benefits, butpull-ups do get easier when you
lose weight.
Oftentimes, when people setthis as a goal, weight loss
happens.
I would also say, too, that justa lot of confidence and
motivation comes from doingsomething that you, especially
(05:19):
like me, a lot of people haveprobably written it off like
they'll never be able to do it,and I don't want to get ahead of
myself.
Getting a first pull-up isn'tsolving any of the world's
biggest problems, but remindingyourself that you can still, you
know, do things that aredifficult and beyond your reach
is almost always worth doing,particularly when it can be
(05:42):
really safe, like in the contextof learning a new pull-up.
So anyway, that's my salespitch portion.
If you never have done apull-up, that's a reason why I
actually think right now thatwould be a great goal for you to
work towards in training.
If you're already doingpull-ups, either send this to a
friend who can't do one or tellthem all of this.
But yeah, let's just share thewealth because there's one.
(06:08):
Here's why I want to talk aboutthis is that there's what I
think the intuitive answer tobuild up to getting the pull up
isn't the right answer, andthat's also why I think a lot of
people don't ever wind upachieving a pull up, even though
I actually think a lot ofpeople put in some good work
towards that.
The intuitive answer that Ithink a lot of people go to that
(06:30):
isn't, isn't as helpful aspeople think would be, um,
something like a lap pull down.
So if you know what I'm talkingabout, this, this would be a
cable exercise where you'regrabbing a bar while seated and
you're going to pull that downto the chest.
So the movement for the upperbody looks very similar to the
movement for the upper body inthe pull-up because it is the
(06:52):
same.
But the reason that latpull-downs are not a great way
to actually get you into yourfirst pull-up gets back to that
benefit.
You're actually one.
You're using a ton of corestrength.
When you're doing your pull-up,and in different positions,
you're going to have to usedifferent aspects of your core
(07:14):
stability.
So if you've only trained usingyour lats in a seated position
while there's a bar over yourlegs, you haven't gotten in that
habit or that skill of beingable to stabilize your core.
So even if you were to workthat lat tower to the point
where you could pull more thanyour body weight with a lat pull
(07:36):
, there's a great chance.
Give it a real number I weigh180 pounds.
Let's say I'm doing 220 on alat pull down, you might think
that person is going to get apull up.
It's actually a great chancethat they don't get the pull up.
So the main thing that I'vealways applied when I'm teaching
people to get to a pull up isthat we're same principles still
(07:57):
apply of progressive overload,but we're going to apply that
specifically to a verticalpulling pattern on a pull-up bar
by regressing the movement toless challenging variations and
then, if you will, the goal thenis to move up that continuum of
(08:17):
movements towards the mostchallenging.
In this continuum we are goingto end at the pull-up but,
unlike a lot of people thinkthat the first place is not
going to be a lap pull-down justbecause I am going to criticize
Huberman of this later.
Let's present both sides,though.
(08:38):
Lap pull-downs in rows, even ahorizontal, are not completely
useless in terms of, you know,working towards your first pull
up.
They're going to lack thespecificity, so I don't think
they'll get you there.
But if you wanted to argue that, like in a phase prior to
really focusing on your pull up,that you did some lap pull
(08:59):
downs and some rows, you know,particularly for hypertrophy, to
build up some back muscle, thatthat might help when you got
into a new phase and focusspecifically on your pull up,
then then you got me.
I think some lat pull downs androws can have, you know, a
purpose in the process towardsgetting your first pull up,
(09:20):
adding some muscle.
But so yeah, obviously,obviously more muscle is going
to help.
But if it's a serious goal thatyou actually want to get your
first pull-up, then we're goingto have to actually be a little
bit more specific so that thecarryover is more direct.
So step one in getting yourfirst pull-up is going to be
(09:46):
actually first just practicinghanging from the bar.
Referring back earlier, that'sthe position that I like to call
the poor man's chiropractor.
A lot of good things happenthere and when we are in this
process of trying to build up toyour first pull-up, I think
(10:07):
just a good general goal beforewe move into step two.
You're going to strive forroughly one minute in just a
hang position.
So grab the pull-up bar, hangand one.
Note that this one's actually alittle bit technical, so bear
with me.
But we want to make sure thatwe're actually retracting the
(10:27):
scapulas a bit while we'rehanging, so you're not letting
that your joint get pulled.
We want to keep a little bit oftension in the upper back,
retract the scapulas, holding ina position as if we were going
to take a pull up.
We were going to take a pull-up.
(10:50):
You're going to get actuallysome good, surprising
development, I think, for yourback muscles by just hanging.
You can actually make somepretty decent gains here,
believe it or not.
Grip strength is also going toimprove a lot.
So again, doesn't matter whereyou're at when you start off,
don't be discouraged.
Your grip is going to pick upvery quickly if you devote
dedicated practice andparticularly if you focus
(11:12):
singularly on this.
Don't waste energy on othertraining goals for a little
while, and you'll recover quitequickly and you'll actually get
to that 60-second hang.
I've seen it happen prettyquick.
I'm not going to give any timeparameters on it because it
really does depend on how muchtime you have to practice.
But if you deprioritize allyour other training goals for a
(11:34):
minute, this can be done in acouple of weeks pretty easy from
almost a pure zero.
So step two then we're actuallygoing to progress now into a
hold.
We want to do the hold in thetop position.
Now you can kind of think of,as we've mastered that bottom
position of the pull up, thelats are stretched, um, your
(11:58):
grip can now take that.
And now that you've got thatdown, um, we're going to
practice the top position of thepull-up.
So this is, you know, helpfulto use a step or a box, so you
obviously don't have to makethat pull-up to get to the top.
But now we're just going tohold and the attempt here is
hold your chest to the bar,retract your shoulder blades so
(12:22):
you're almost going to feel likeyou're trying to touch your
chest to the bar and thensimilar process here we're going
to work to increase that timethat we can hold that position
with our chest up, shouldersretracted, and this one you're
not going to need to progressnearly as far as the hang.
(12:44):
If you can get to the pointwhere you can maintain that
position for about 30 seconds,then you'll be ready to move
step three, which actually youwill have already been getting a
little bit of practice in,because when you're doing that
hold at the top, well okay, stepthree is an eccentric.
(13:04):
An eccentric that's just thenegative portion of the lift,
that's when you are lowering orthe muscle is stretching.
So obviously, every time thatyou executed a hold, you
probably did an eccentric to getback down, which all that means
is, then you just would have,you know, slowly let the weight
of your body overcome yourmuscles and then just allow
(13:25):
yourself to transition from thetop hold to the hang, just doing
that one negative rep duringthe hold phase.
That's going to be your firstexposure to eccentrics.
We can also just call themnegatives, that's it.
You know, if you're not afitness enthusiast, you wouldn't
have heard either term.
So take the scientific one.
But if you're not a fitnessenthusiast, you wouldn't have
heard either term.
(13:45):
So take the scientific one.
But if you're a lifter or afitness hobbyist, you're
probably already familiar withnegatives, so we might just go
with that.
But yeah, so in step three we'reactually going to do focused
negative work and now you'reactually going to start
programming these like you wouldprogram any other strength work
(14:05):
.
So we're going to start at alow dose.
You know, maybe you're workingsets of two, move that up to
sets of three.
You know, eventually you'regoing to progress this up to
sets of five, the way you aregoing to do multiple reps on an
eccentric, though you want thatstep nearby.
So use your step set up in thetop, hold, allow yourself slowly
(14:31):
to come all the way to thebottom and then use your step to
get back up.
We're not even going to attemptthe pull just yet.
Between the hanging, theholding and the eccentrics,
you've basically learned all ofthe skills that you need within
your core to stabilize everypart of this movement.
(14:53):
The only piece that we haveleft out is what's called the
concentric contraction.
So three phases in your musclecontraction Concentric is when
the primary muscle is shortening, eccentric is when the primary
is lengthening.
And isometric is when it isneither lengthening nor
shortening.
So obviously we've already donethe isometric work and we've
(15:15):
already done the eccentric work.
The last piece to add.
Step four this is where we'regoing to finally add the
concentric portion of thepull-up.
Um, and there are.
There's an order kind of to thethe best here.
Um, so we're either going to bedoing partner assisted pull-ups
(15:37):
you're either going to orassisted pull-ups if you're
doing them in the gym and theyhave that machine or, and
distinctly, the third optionhere would be the band pull-up.
Tell you why I have them inthat order.
Skilled spotter is by far thebest because if you have a
(15:57):
skilled spotter, if they've beenworking out with you for a
while, they probably know yoursigns of fatigue, how you're
pushing.
They can help on the way up aslittle as necessary and that can
vary set to set based on whatis needed and then they can also
remove any assistance for thoseeccentrics.
(16:18):
So if you have a skilled andcompetent spotter, you're going
to be able to get full range ofmotion reps with great form and
the absolute minimum assistancethat you require in order to get
that done.
If you're working out in a gymthat has one of those machines
with the assisted pull-up, thatis going to be your second best
(16:40):
option here.
It's not as good as having askilled spotter, just for the
simple fact that it's just astable assistance throughout
every single part of the lift,through the eccentric, through
the concentric, every singleinch, exact same assistance.
So a skilled spotter canprovide a better stimulus than
(17:04):
an assisted pull-up machine can.
Band is in last place because itnow is a variable resistance.
So if you think about when theband is stretched it's obviously
providing more assistance thanwhen it is not stretched.
So when you're on a band you'reactually getting the most help
(17:27):
at the bottom.
So the band is stretched themost there you're, at the bottom
of the lift.
It is giving you the mostassistance when you are trying
to come out of the hole.
Just in terms of power anddeveloping that concentric.
That is the exact worst spot tohave.
Your goal is to developstrength.
You want the challenge in thatexact spot and you also want the
(17:51):
challenge actually at thelockout.
So, anyway, just the strengthcurve that the band is giving
you is not ideal.
But the reason I included iteven though I don't like that is
this is just one of those likereal life things where I have
seen people learn pull ups usingbands.
So I don't want to just shit onit or say it doesn't work
(18:14):
because, like, it totally doeswork.
And then I also think thereason that I have seen it work
so often is, you know, one ofthe places that I see people
learning pull ups the most isdown at Muscle Beach.
I'm in Los Angeles, as you know.
The original Muscle Beach downthere in Santa Monica is a place
I've been working out for years, seen lots of people learn
pull-ups, and so, yeah, outthere on the beach, actually,
(18:40):
skilled spotters are available,but some people are antisocial,
some people don't want to mix itup, whatever.
There definitely isn't anassisted pull-up machine out
there.
And so, yeah, I'm just tellingthe truth, I've seen tons of
people learn pull-ups with justthe progressions I talked about
here and bands Going to wrap itup in a second.
(19:02):
But again, I just want toreiterate that I've seen people
do this a lot.
But I also work out in one ofthe most famous outdoor
bodyweight calisthenic gyms inthe world.
When I go into the big box gymsthat I also go into in other
places, I think one of the bigreasons that a lot of people
haven't been able to get theirfirst pull-up is they don't have
(19:25):
the process down, been able toget their first pull-up is they
don't have the process down.
They're typically starting withlat pull-downs, like we
mentioned, and you've got to geta little bit more specific
skill if you're ever going toachieve that first pull-up.
So, anyway, that's it.
That's my piece.
If you've never gotten apull-up, that should be your
training goal right now.
Make time for it.
That's not you.
(19:45):
Send this to somebody who needsit.
Let's get them going, um.
So anyway, I want to transitionand actually talk about ag1
athletic greens, that is, youknow supplement that I have
taken at one point.
Um, it's one of the biggestsponsors of health and wellness
podcasts and probably won't wantto sponsor this show after this
(20:09):
segment.
But a quick note and not to betoo sanctimonious, but that is
actually why I appreciate andenjoy being independent.
I'm not beholden to sayinganything other than what is my
best current understanding.
This is a product that I wasusing at one point, so obviously
at that time I might've saidsomething different, but in
(20:33):
light of all the availableinformation I have now, I'm not
really capable of saying what Iwould have said two years ago.
I personally just have a hardtime selling things that I don't
believe in Not proud of it,probably my worst job ever.
I actually had a door-to-doorsales job and I made the mistake
(20:54):
of Googling my company and Ilanded on the Better Business
Bureau and I just realized thatwe were a really terrible
company and after that I justreally started to suck at sales.
I had actually been prettydecent at it prior to that.
I knew how to sell a system andobviously a lot of my
(21:15):
co-workers continued to sellsystems.
There's a set of techniques thatyou can use when you're in a
sales situation.
They don't work 100% of thetime, but they work enough of
the time that, almost like achecklist, there's a certain set
of skills that you can learnand this is something that even
(21:35):
why I have this show it kind ofmade me my own time in sales
actually made me a little bittoxic of the pitch.
There isn't really any companythat I've worked for in sales
that I didn't grow to not enjoy,and that's probably you know in
fairness, because I'm surethere's people out there who
love their job in sales.
(21:55):
I'm sure, if you believe in theproduct that you're selling,
that it's possible to feel thatway.
I never had that experience, so, unfortunately.
I never had that experience.
(22:24):
So, unfortunately, I have a setof skills where I can spot
sales pitches.
I know how to do them very welland I still you know, weird
idealist in me.
I strive for a world, you know,full of products and ideas so
good that they don't actuallyrequire marketing or sales.
But anyway, dr Rhonda Patrickshe put out a video critiquing
AG1.
Background on her she has a PhDin biomedical science from the
University of Tennessee.
She completed her postdoctoralfellowship in nutritional
biochemistry oh, and that was atChildren's Hospital in Oakland
(22:48):
Just want to shout that outbecause I got friends and family
up in the Bay and her workfocuses on the interconnections
between micronutrientdeficiencies, aging and age
related diseases.
She was asked for her opinionon athletic greens and I just
thought her framing was reallygood.
(23:09):
She was basically saying it's amultivitamin.
Her issue was the framing of itas greens or a green powder.
But she says if drinking yourmultivitamin is how you prefer
to do it, go for it, but if youthink you're getting additional
benefits like a serving ofgreens, that's almost certainly
(23:31):
not the case.
She pointed out that there areminuscule amounts of the
nutrients and probiotics thatare promoted and it's a bit like
a drop in the ocean, unless ifit is functioning as a placebo,
then cool.
But that's the inconvenientthing about listening to people
(23:55):
like me.
If you don't believe in itanymore, then the placebo effect
is inert.
But yeah, no, anyway, it reallyis not a replacement for greens
or fruit.
It's not a superfood.
If you're using it as amultivitamin, that's great.
Last time that we had discussedgreens I think that's kind of
(24:16):
where I was at, run back theepisode or call me out if I'm
wrong, but I was using it askind of a cover, my ass
amendment to make sure thatthere was no key nutrients that
I was missing.
Since I've stopped drinkinggreen powder, I've made a
personal best on a deadlift.
I've improved all my milesplits.
(24:38):
In fairness to Athletic Greens,I don't think it's reflective
of anything except for mytraining programming my training
programming, sorry, and myincreased focus on those skills.
But I only highlight that tojust say that discontinuing
Athletic Greens, I don't thinkit negatively impacted me in any
(25:02):
way and I'm not sure it wasadding anything to my situation
while I was using it.
So anyway, that's my currentposition on greens powders and,
yeah, I think Ron and Patrickkind of nailed it.
If you're taking it as amultivitamin, that's your
expectations, that's what you'regetting into.
Cool.
(25:22):
If you think you can pound someathletic greens and skip out on
vegetables, yeah, I don't knowif that's a solid thought.
The scientists in the field weresaying, yeah, so we did an
(25:50):
episode on Huberman recently,but so I'll admit, I was
actually having someconversations with some friends
in Oakland and I didn't realizethis, but actually I was like
two degrees of separation awayfrom some of the people that
were mentioned in that New Yorkmagazine.
(26:11):
So anyway, that was just funny.
I'm actually not going to wadeinto that aspect of Huberman.
I said that last episode.
I'm not interested in hisrelationship or relationships.
In his relationship orrelationships.
(26:46):
What I am interested is he is,you know, I think, the face of
you know, neuroscience, possiblylike health and wellness.
He or at least in the public'seye right now, like he is the
position of science in a numberof fields.
So I think that there's aresponsibility that he has as
that person.
So anyway, I want to put allthat out there, just because
whenever you're critiquingsomebody who tops in their field
, there's always that I thinkthere could be an interpretation
of malice on anybody critiquingthem for any number of reasons.
(27:11):
So you know, before we jumpinto him again, I just want to
say that I'm kind of speaking onhim because of his success and
because of the responsibilitythat I think comes with that,
and again I mentioned it on theepisode.
But reiterate too that Ilistened to a bunch of his early
episodes and so I don't haveany reason to think that
(27:34):
anything I'm about to say orhighlight, because some of this
is coming from other folks.
But I have no reason to thinkthat he's not intelligent enough
to understand absolutelyeverything that we're about to
hit on here.
So, as he does have the biggestplatform, I just hope he
chooses to use it in a way thatcan advance science and not just
(27:58):
the products and brands andaffiliations that the show
invariably will pick up with itssuccess.
But anyway, they're preambleout of the way.
So there was a recent clip thatHuberman tweeted.
It was from a larger episode,like a three-hour episode that
honestly I don't think it wasnew, but for some reason the
(28:20):
tweet kind of sparked a bunch ofscientists and actually they
really did have some fun quotes.
So it was a matthew hill phd inbehavioral neuroscience uh,
university of calgary.
He has studied theendocannabinoid system for over
two decades and he said holyfucking shit, it is actually
(28:43):
disturbing how inaccurate theoverwhelming majority of what is
said here is Peter Grinspoon, aphysician, massachusetts
General Hospital, instructor atHarvard Medical School, and then
he wrote a book Seeing Throughthe Smoke.
A Cannabis Expert Untangles theTruth About Marijuana.
So he said does anybody knowwhat drug he's talking about?
(29:08):
Ryan Marino, board certifiedphysician, medical toxicology
addiction medicine.
So in response to the Twitterclip he said 20 minutes of made
up nonsense.
Almost none of it true and theepisode as a whole makes no
sense.
It's absurd.
(29:28):
This man is considered anauthority in science
communication.
So I've got more.
There's still more scientistssaying funny things, but no, I
think we should probably getinto what he actually said.
That got them so upset.
And yeah, that's again.
Most of what I'm trying toreally highlight here is that
(29:51):
for somebody who is now theauthority in science, that there
is a standard that he's goingto have to live up to, as if
he's going to carry that mantle,and so what he said that was
bothering the scientists First.
First was that this was fun forme.
I had to learn a little bit tooon this one.
So, um, you know, no pointbeing sanctimonious, uh.
(30:12):
But so in his information hewas mentioning you know often
the distinction between sativaand indica strains, something
that potheads have been doingfor a long time.
But that's actually not part ofcurrent science.
The term, as I also just learned, is varieties, and the reason
(30:34):
or justification is that therearen't really good examples of
pure indica or sativa strains inmodern cannabis, which has been
crossed many times over again.
Full disclosure.
I used to grow cannabis myselfon a perpetual harvest system
that I modeled after Dutchindoor cultivation.
(30:54):
This was in West Hollywood,california, so you don't have to
tell anybody it was all good.
But I just mentioned because Ihave a little bit more folk
knowledge on cannabishorticulture consumption and all
of that than the average bear.
And yeah, so I have also usedindica and sativa.
(31:19):
But then when I was actuallyfact-checking to see who was
right me and Andrew or thescientists the scientist
reasoning is actually prettysolid.
I do know my genetics andstrains pretty well and then one
of the examples they wereciting was how you can even take
a cannabis cup winning strainlike, for example, ak-47.
It has won both Best Indica andBest Sativa in different years.
(31:44):
So the distinction, althoughanybody who has smoked pot is
going to be well aware of itmyself, who grew it and used it
for a long time, also had thatdistinction.
No, the facts are pretty clearand actually the description of
strains is pretty nebulous andit's a moving target Strains
(32:05):
that were once consideredindicas or considered sativas at
various times, and vice versa.
The main point not to throwaway our use of strains.
It's fine in an informalconversation or at your
dispensary, but when you'rehaving a discussion about the
(32:28):
science, um, it's notappropriate.
Um, because, well, hubermanstarts to make claims about
cannabis based on itsdistinction, on whether it is
indica or sativa and those notbeing, uh, scientific categories
, um, it again.
(32:48):
This is why, in the eyes of thescientists, these amounted to,
you know, nonsense, um, or wordsalad was one of their favorite
ones, um, and and specificallywhat they were citing.
So he made claims that you knowabout the strains as he used and
they don't like that term buthow it would alter memory or
appetite based on those factors.
(33:10):
And to all of those questions,none of those mechanisms are
known.
They are being studied andnobody knows any of that.
The terminology is, admittedly,a holdover from stoner culture,
find an informal conversationnot appropriate for a scientific
one.
(33:30):
And then to me, just kind ofironically, because he's using
the language of stoner culture.
But then you know, huberman doesoffer many outdated cannabis
stereotypes, you know, one ofthem being that it will almost
always cause memory problems.
This is being studied currentlyand that's not what the
(33:50):
scientists say.
Short-term memory loss has beennoted, not long-term memory
loss, according to availableliterature, and it does not shut
down the hippocampus, animportant component for memory
functions, for memory functions.
(34:11):
So yeah, I do want to becareful here because I'm not a
scientist and I like thecritiques that the scientists
are making.
We need to present both sidesof any unknown issue, but I
think most people are probablyaware of the idea that cannabis
might be associated with memoryloss.
I don't know if people areaware of the other side which we
just mentioned.
I think that is presenting theother side.
Oh, another one it'll alwayscause the munchies.
(34:35):
So again, that's a prettycommonly and long held
stereotype.
First let's go to the anecdotal.
I've been cruising around 10%body fat for almost two decades
while consuming cannabis thewhole time.
Munchies is not a problem forme.
Further study require, I guess,but no, people are actually
(34:56):
studying this exact issue rightnow in rats and nothing
definitive about the mechanismdriving hunger.
They do see it in subjectswhich are rats, but they don't
know what mechanism is drivingit in rats.
So it would follow that theyalso don't know what's driving
(35:17):
it in humans.
But no, it certainly isn'teverybody.
And also, fairness to Huberman,I think that again, this is an
example where maybe this is finein an unscientific discussion,
that that's a heuristic smokepot and you'll get the munchies.
(35:38):
That's true often enough that Ithink most people are going to
be able to live their life bythat rule.
So I don't think it's like amassively egregious error in
that regard, but kind of gettingback to like, why are
scientists, you know, mad withHuberman is that Huberman is the
(35:59):
celebrity face of neuroscienceand even possibly science,
health and wellness at large,and there are many people in the
disciplines that he talks aboutwho are speaking up and upset
with how he oversteps theavailable data to weave a
compelling story about thetopics of his show Back to the
(36:23):
scientists.
It drives the majority of usinsane.
When you go to any neuroscienceconference, when someone
mentions huberman's name,everyone sighs and rolls their
eyes.
So that's matthew hill.
Uh, phd, neuroscience um,university of calgary, um,
ironically, also studied theendocannabinoid system for more
than two decades, or did wealready?
(36:44):
Yeah, yeah, we alreadymentioned him, but yeah, I guess
he's mad.
He's been doing this for 20years, um, and then, uh.
So now we got one from lindaclumpers.
She is university of vermontclinical pharmacologist.
Um, she says huberman usesjargon and phrases that are
related to how cannabiscompounds work.
So it might sound impressiveand legitimate, but what he and
(37:11):
again, people aren't just likebeing prickly and picking at
errors.
Huberman has a responsibility tolive up to with the stature of
the position that he has workedhis way into, and it's
impossible for him or anybody tobe definitive or all-knowing
about everything that he's goingto cover on his show.
(37:31):
On his show and if you're herelistening to Mind Muscle, you're
also savvy about how most ofthe media ecosystem is formed,
and particularly when you startsigning deals with WME, it's not
conspiratorial to suggest thatthere are products and other
interests that wind up weavingtheir way into the stories of
every single show that's backedby that much.
(37:55):
So, anyway, I actually see himas having an opportunity here.
He has a massive platform.
It's about to get even bigger.
And actually, don't take it fromme, I'm not a scientist.
As a steward of science and anacademic, it's imperative that
the statements one makes arefactual, based on evidence and
(38:16):
put into the appropriate context.
Linda Klumper's, again, whensomething is uncertain or
nuanced, you must discloseopposing opinions and provide
support for those arguments withdata or clarify you don't know
about a certain topic.
So anyway, that, lindaKlumper's, you know, finishing
up there.
So anyway, that, lindaClumper's, you know, finishing
up there.
But that is kind of what me andthe scientists that I am can
(38:40):
choose to either be on the sideof science or be on the side of
telling stories.
And his story isn't written yet.
(39:08):
So anyway, I'm going to continueto be hopeful that you know,
maybe once you get paid and youand you get your kind of fuck
you money, um, you eventuallyjust kind of stop caring um and
he can, you know, actually bewhat, what he, uh, you know,
markets himself to be of, um,this popular communicator of
(39:30):
science.
Um, I, I liked some of theearly episodes, as I mentioned,
mentioned.
I've learned some things.
So I understand somebody beinga fan and getting positive
things, but I do think somewhatof his intelligence and ability
could be doing even better andreally hope he does.
But just one random dude.
So who cares?
In some regard, right, butanyway, last thing I want to
(39:53):
talk about was so there's anarticle I came across in the
Atlantic like the title the FADDiet to End All FAD Diets, and
it was all about theintermittent fasting trend.
First thing I found interestingwas it was trying to pin down
when the intermittent fastingfad began.
(40:15):
Pinned down when theintermittent fasting fad began,
and so they pinned it at 2015 or2012.
I'm not trying to be a hipster,I actually kind of remember
getting into it a little earlierthan that.
I came in, if anyone elseremembers this, there was a blog
, swedish model turned powerlifter.
His name was Martin Beckran andhe had this blog called Lean
(40:36):
Gains in the early 2000s.
And 16-8 was the protocolpopularized back then 16-hour
fast, eight-hour eating window.
And what made it interesting tome at the time was that, if you
guys remember kind of like thegym culture anyway, in the early
2000s, the popular idea backthen was actually like five or
(40:56):
six meals.
You wanted frequent meals tostoke the metabolic fire.
You know that was the way wedid it, and so when I came
across lean gains, I wasactually like terrified of going
16 hours without protein,because I had been indoctrinated
at that point in my life tobelieve that that would
completely destroy all themuscle that I've been working so
(41:21):
hard for.
For me, some of the benefitsthat I got it merely doing lean
gains or intermittent fastingback then in my 20s made me
generally less dogmatic aboutnutrient and meal timing.
Prior to that I really was.
Post-workout meal was alsosuper big to me.
Um, I think I still hit thatthen and it's still important.
(41:44):
I don't want to completelyminimize it.
I just I thought, um, it was myreligion for a while and, um,
but uh, yeah, you don't have tobe as tight as I used to be with
the macros and the timing andall that stuff post-workout, um,
so yeah, lean gains positiveexperience.
It may be less dogmatic aboutnutrient timing, uh, meal timing
(42:07):
, um, and then also you knowtechnically true that it maybe
helped me balance drinking andpartying and being lean in my
20s in the interest ofpresenting both sides.
Could also have been the factthat I was in my 20s, but I
guess we'll never know.
(42:27):
It did not survive my partyphase though, as my go-to, my
party phase though as my go-tonutrition strategy.
And anyway, enough about mine.
Uh, the article was citing youknow 2012, michael mosley, with
the 5-2 protocol, as, like, theorigin of the fad.
(42:47):
Um, I disagree on, like myinsufferable fitness hipster um
bit that you already heard.
Um, okay, one more.
We were definitely aware oflike 5-2 and a whole bunch of
other protocols, even in theearly 2000s, um, 16-8 was chosen
for lifestyle factors, kind oftilting towards the partying
(43:09):
thing.
Um, but whatever, I'm actuallywilling to admit that maybe they
did their research and maybeGoogle trends say that 2012 is
when it, uh, you know, morphedout of my you know little
subculture.
Um, but now also, both of usare wrong on years when you
consider that Bernard McFaddenwas popularizing, you know,
(43:30):
fasting in the early 1900s andhe was also not the first person
to do it.
But anyway, part of why Istarted there was that's kind of
.
The only thing I disagree withthis article on Main point was
that intermittent fastingremains one of the most popular
fad diets, in spite of mixedevidence at best.
(43:55):
We've talked about that here.
The article reiterated thatthere's some short-term studies
showing weight loss.
The long-term studies are notgood.
So, as far as the otherassociated or asserted not
(44:18):
associated, the other assertedbenefits would be what do they
say?
Improving insulin sensitivity,cardiovascular health,
alzheimer's, parkinson's.
Even the people who did thosestudies argue that, though
fasting is broadly favorable,whether people who fast over the
(44:42):
span of years would ever accruethe health benefits seen in
animals also remainsundetermined, determined.
Um, obviously, you can obviouslyunderstand why people that are
dealing with health issues aregoing to seek out, um solutions
for it.
I just don't think the evidenceis as strong as people say.
(45:04):
It is, um, what it was actuallyreally focusing to those is why
I actually don't even want torelitigate this today.
So, um, yeah, I'm not going tospend as much time debunking
fasting, but I kind of want tomore focus on why is it?
Why does it continue to bepopular?
Why do people find this to bean answer to their various
(45:26):
health problems, or at leastfind it one that they're willing
to entertain and try?
And you know, frankly, what'sinteresting in the article says
this is that one it's uh, it'shard Um, that that's kind of why
it's uh, popularity is somewhatsurprising, because this isn't
easy to do.
But, um, you know I I think itis intuitive for a lot of people
(45:49):
to assume that pushing yourbody to its limits is a good
thing, because it is a goodthing in a lot of contexts.
But whether you're working outor whether you're setting up a
diet, you have to keep in mindthat the extremes well, it's
definitely possible to even havetoo much of good things.
It's not a singular principleto just maximize or go to the
(46:10):
extremes.
Extremes are always going toseem, more you know, more
effective, because more isbetter feels intuitively correct
.
But you know, as we know incountless ways, that's not
always going to be true.
One other aspect that somethingthat's difficult is going to
give you is it actually doesbuild in-group status to
(46:32):
followers.
The discipline that it takes tofinish is often glorified or
even moralized in communitiesthat promote fasting, and
obviously, before it was everused for nutritional shows of
faith, it was used in religiouspractice.
So it has a long history ofbasically just demonstrating
(46:57):
one's in-group status.
This, I think, is a big part ofwhy it continues to be popular
throughout the ages.
In a sense too and I don't wantto relate it again science not
confirming its benefits ispartly why, or at least it's
(47:18):
signaling that there's otherreasons why people fast besides
the health benefits.
Maybe the point of fasting isn'thealth at all.
Most people are going to do itand maybe they see results.
Maybe they don't, but eitherway, surviving a test of will is
proof that the mind canovercome the body.
(47:40):
And earlier in this episode youwould have caught me saying on
pull-ups you know, reaching forthings that are difficult is a
good thing, right?
Well, this is why we got tohave some nuance and subtlety
with everything.
(48:03):
Part of our chase foroptimization with health, I
think, can naturally lead to aplace where we're trying to
achieve some form oftranscendence through these
means, and I don't want to labelit good or bad, but I think it
might be a misuse of thepractices.
That's all that I will.
If those are things that getpeople attached and into the
practices, then maybe I got tocreate a little bit of space and
(48:24):
allow for that.
But I don't know if that'sreally what we're striving to do
is create groups and tribes ofworkout and nutrition people.
But anyway, one point all this,I think, was actually pretty
well covered in the article, butone point that I just wanted to
add to the discussion becausethere was a time when I was
(48:46):
actually promoting fasting to myown clients and using it myself
.
My favorite line back then wasit's not about what you eat,
it's about when you eat.
And that line worked a lot whenI was selling people on fasting
, for a couple reasons.
One, I was in good shape and Iwas saying it and it also, more
(49:07):
importantly to me, it appeals towhat we want to be true, that
what we eat doesn't matter, thatwhat we eat doesn't matter.
(49:30):
People love it.
When a guy with people wantedto be true that you could be
that dude at the party with thesix-pack throwing down beers and
yeah, not the six-pack thatanybody can buy at a convenience
store, you know the one on yourstomach and yeah, it's like
literally the image of everybeer commercial.
(49:51):
So when I was that 20 somethingguy telling people about
fasting being the secret to livethat lifestyle, it was
something people wanted to hear,so they believed me when I said
it.
You know it for others, becausethat's not other people's goal,
but for others I think it also.
(50:12):
It kind of promises likeimprovements to nearly every
single aspect of your healthwithout actually changing
anything, and that's alsoobviously something that we
would like to be true aredifficult to get out, because
(50:37):
the best stories and the bestcommercials anybody here, and
myself included, understands thetechniques underwriting every
single one of them.
The only problem is thatthey're not true and they don't
work except for selling products.
So the I do deeply understandthe appeal, um, but no, it's
(50:59):
frustrating to me, and this isat least something I'm trying to
, not just complain about,something I'm trying to help out
with in my own way.
But the fitness industry andjournalists have made people so
confused about what to eat thatthey just want to throw up their
hands and give up.
Um, and I actually don't thinkthat's the individual's fault.
Like I said, I think that isthe fault of the people who have
(51:23):
been covering this andpopularizing it to the public.
But, yeah, I don't want to be oreven sound like one of these
podcast warriors, because I havethe, have the self awareness to
know I am also a part of thisspace, so I am just trying to
use my, my very limited part ofit to to put out a different
(51:44):
message.
And again, this is it.
This is why it bothers me.
Um, what you eat is important.
It's incredibly important.
Anybody that tries to tell youit isn't.
It's not that they're wrong andI'm right.
They're not setting you up foryour best health.
That's why it's frustrating.
I generally wish well oneverybody.
(52:07):
I hope their livelihoods aregood and all of that.
The only frustrating part isthat it's just not good advice.
For most people, what you eatis really important.
It is far more important thanwhen you eat.
I went through all of thismyself because, again, the
(52:29):
information ecosystem we live inleaves a lot to be desired.
We live in leaves a lot to bedesired.
That was my arc, I don't know,10 plus years.
But if I could get in a timemachine and go back, I actually
probably would slap that20-something version of me and
actually not because of thefasting thing, though, because
(52:50):
of how he used to talk toclients who were parents and so
anytime.
I would actually love to goback in time and punch myself
when I was talking to someparent about fitness advice.
That would be really fun.
And yeah, actually there'sliterally nothing that
20-something version of me coulddo about it.
(53:11):
He would just have to take iton the chin and then shut up.
But anyway, I know I beat up onfasting a lot.
I'm not anti-fasting, used itmyself, guided other people
through it.
(53:31):
I just don't like talking aboutnutrient timing with anyone who
doesn't eat mostly unprocessedfoods, have a grasp of their
current energy balance.
They've got theirmacronutrients dialed into their
current goals.
They're only drinking likecoffee, tea or water.
They got that sleep down sevento nine hours.
If you got all those things inplace then I would love to talk
(53:52):
about nutrient timing with you.
What I again get sick of issomething that I think should be
reserved for advanced fitnessgoals or goals that have nothing
to do with fitness becoming thefront row top page on all of
the health publications.
(54:12):
So anyway, I hope that clearsup why I've been kind of fixated
on this issue.
I like that article.
It's in a great publicationthat's going to get out.
But yeah, that's all I got foryou guys today.
So just to sweep back andsummarize so if you want to get
better at pull-ups assumingyou've never done one four-step
(54:33):
process hang, hold eccentrics ornegatives, get your partner,
your assistant machine or a bandthose four steps are going to
get you into your first pull-up.
Athletic green supplement that Iused to take I think it's good
to kind of think of as amultivitamin.
If that's your favorite way toget a multivitamin, drinking it
(54:56):
like that, keep it up, but justdon't think that it's replacing
greens, if that's what you'regetting it.
For.
Andrew Huberman, he wasupsetting the scientists.
I'm more on the scientist sidewith this one.
He's got a lot to live up towith the platform that he has
(55:18):
built.
And, yeah, I hope that he takesthe helpful criticism from the
scientists in the fields he'sbeen talking about and I hope he
takes their message to heart.
And yeah, last but not least youleast, obviously I've done my
latest fasting takedown, similarthing, and I'm not just trying
(55:42):
to be like that formless guy whosplits the issues.
It can be useful for somepeople in some context that this
really isn't the page one newsfor health and fitness that
people might have.
You believe it is if you'rechecking in on the fitness space
.
But anyway, guys, in some ways,just to that point, I'll keep
(56:05):
up with the fitness space alittle bit so you don't have to
um, but no, you know I don'twant to attach to that too
strong.
You should be fact checking me,keeping me honest, uh,
informing yourself on the spaceas well, um, commenting too and
letting me know what the hell Ishould even be looking at Um
cause I do.
I love when you guys push me umto keep learning, but anyway,
(56:28):
remember, mind and muscle areinseparably intertwined.
No gains without brains.
Keep lifting and learning, I'lldo the same.
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon DeVere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place we study the history, science and philosophy behind
everything in health and fitness.
Today I am Simon Devere andthere's nothing new, except all
(00:29):
that has been forgotten.
Anyway, guys, fingers crossed,had some audio disruptions
coming through the house lastcouple of weeks, so I hope I got
a good time, but we'll see ifmy dogs and my daughter want to
comply with my plans today.
But yeah, so I got four thingsI want to run down with you guys
(00:51):
.
So we're going to talk todayabout how to get better at
pull-ups If you can't currentlydo one.
I see pull-ups in a lot ofprograms, including my own, but
yeah, common problem is a lot ofpeople actually can't even do
one.
So we're going to kind ofoutline and identify how you
(01:11):
could get your first pull-up.
That's something that youhaven't done and then all those
programs with pull-ups in thembecome fair game for you.
Let's also touch in.
I saw a cool video from DrRhonda Patrick critiquing
Athletic Greens Cool video.
I was a user of the product fora while not currently using it,
(01:35):
but video helped me solidifywhat I think my views are on the
product.
We're going to revisit Focus ofa recent show, but we're going
to actually touch on AndrewHuberman One more time.
He actually got some scientistsin the field of cannabis upset
(01:55):
with some of the informationhe's promoting there.
So let's just run down whatHuberman's saying, what the
scientists are saying.
Oh, and then actually I justsaw it in the news this morning.
I already had this ready totalk about anyway, but he
actually just signed a deal withWME, big agency here, that hit
Variety.
(02:15):
So, no, I think it's a timelyand important discussion because
he already has the number onerated fitness show.
With a partnership like that,it's certainly going to be
getting even bigger.
So, yeah, I at least I'm noscientist, I am on, or at least
I'm a fan of the evidence-basedcommunity.
So, you know, hoping that hemakes a turn back, you know, to
(02:41):
that.
And then last thing we're goingto touch on I know I've been
beating it up lately, but youknow great article that I saw in
the Atlantic that was calledthe fad diet.
To end all fad diets focused onintermittent fasting.
Liked a lot of the observationsin there.
And then couple pieces that Ijust wanted to add in my
thoughts too, since I know thosewere some ideas that are
(03:03):
circulating out there.
But anyway, it's actually goingto probably take me a minute to
get through, so let's go aheadand jump right in.
Let's start with your workoutfirst.
So I really do want to talkabout how to get better at
pull-ups, particularly forpeople who can't do one.
Pull-ups really are one of thebest upper body movements,
(03:26):
particularly for your back,obviously, but that's why you
see them in so many programs, inspite of the fact that there's
actually a lot of people outthere who can't do one.
So, anyway, if this is you, um,that would be a great goal to
(03:50):
train towards.
You'd get tons of benefits uh,from that.
Uh, improved grip strength.
That's going to have a lot ofcarry over to um, just being
more generally useful in life Um, one of the best anti-aging you
know traits to have good grip.
Um, they're actually great forcore.
I know that people are going tothink of the back of the biceps
(04:11):
with your pull-ups chin-ups but, um, remember, core is actually
the ability to stabilize yourspine, so you're going to get a
lot of that throughout the rangeof motion of your pull-up.
Hanging from a pull-up bar, usmeathead trainers oftentimes
call the poor man's chiropractor.
It's going to improve posture,help stabilize the shoulders.
(04:34):
You'll get some spinaldecompression, some elongating
of the spine.
Enhances shoulder flexibilityand stability, which then you
know why're good for forwarm-ups in general practice is,
uh, in the context of training,can reduce your injury risk.
If you've got a, you know, good, uh, good hang, and then
(04:55):
obviously, mastery of thepull-up, even better.
Um, can't really put this in.
You know the benefits, butpull-ups do get easier when you
lose weight.
Oftentimes, when people setthis as a goal, weight loss
happens.
I would also say, too, that justa lot of confidence and
motivation comes from doingsomething that you, especially
(05:19):
like me, a lot of people haveprobably written it off like
they'll never be able to do it,and I don't want to get ahead of
myself.
Getting a first pull-up isn'tsolving any of the world's
biggest problems, but remindingyourself that you can still, you
know, do things that aredifficult and beyond your reach
is almost always worth doing,particularly when it can be
(05:42):
really safe, like in the contextof learning a new pull-up.
So anyway, that's my salespitch portion.
If you never have done apull-up, that's a reason why I
actually think right now thatwould be a great goal for you to
work towards in training.
If you're already doingpull-ups, either send this to a
friend who can't do one or tellthem all of this.
But yeah, let's just share thewealth because there's one.
(06:08):
Here's why I want to talk aboutthis is that there's what I
think the intuitive answer tobuild up to getting the pull up
isn't the right answer, andthat's also why I think a lot of
people don't ever wind upachieving a pull up, even though
I actually think a lot ofpeople put in some good work
towards that.
The intuitive answer that Ithink a lot of people go to that
(06:30):
isn't, isn't as helpful aspeople think would be, um,
something like a lap pull down.
So if you know what I'm talkingabout, this, this would be a
cable exercise where you'regrabbing a bar while seated and
you're going to pull that downto the chest.
So the movement for the upperbody looks very similar to the
movement for the upper body inthe pull-up because it is the
(06:52):
same.
But the reason that latpull-downs are not a great way
to actually get you into yourfirst pull-up gets back to that
benefit.
You're actually one.
You're using a ton of corestrength.
When you're doing your pull-up,and in different positions,
you're going to have to usedifferent aspects of your core
(07:14):
stability.
So if you've only trained usingyour lats in a seated position
while there's a bar over yourlegs, you haven't gotten in that
habit or that skill of beingable to stabilize your core.
So even if you were to workthat lat tower to the point
where you could pull more thanyour body weight with a lat pull
(07:36):
, there's a great chance.
Give it a real number I weigh180 pounds.
Let's say I'm doing 220 on alat pull down, you might think
that person is going to get apull up.
It's actually a great chancethat they don't get the pull up.
So the main thing that I'vealways applied when I'm teaching
people to get to a pull up isthat we're same principles still
(07:57):
apply of progressive overload,but we're going to apply that
specifically to a verticalpulling pattern on a pull-up bar
by regressing the movement toless challenging variations and
then, if you will, the goal thenis to move up that continuum of
(08:17):
movements towards the mostchallenging.
In this continuum we are goingto end at the pull-up but,
unlike a lot of people thinkthat the first place is not
going to be a lap pull-down justbecause I am going to criticize
Huberman of this later.
Let's present both sides,though.
(08:38):
Lap pull-downs in rows, even ahorizontal, are not completely
useless in terms of, you know,working towards your first pull
up.
They're going to lack thespecificity, so I don't think
they'll get you there.
But if you wanted to argue that, like in a phase prior to
really focusing on your pull up,that you did some lap pull
(08:59):
downs and some rows, you know,particularly for hypertrophy, to
build up some back muscle, thatthat might help when you got
into a new phase and focusspecifically on your pull up,
then then you got me.
I think some lat pull downs androws can have, you know, a
purpose in the process towardsgetting your first pull up,
(09:20):
adding some muscle.
But so yeah, obviously,obviously more muscle is going
to help.
But if it's a serious goal thatyou actually want to get your
first pull-up, then we're goingto have to actually be a little
bit more specific so that thecarryover is more direct.
So step one in getting yourfirst pull-up is going to be
(09:46):
actually first just practicinghanging from the bar.
Referring back earlier, that'sthe position that I like to call
the poor man's chiropractor.
A lot of good things happenthere and when we are in this
process of trying to build up toyour first pull-up, I think
(10:07):
just a good general goal beforewe move into step two.
You're going to strive forroughly one minute in just a
hang position.
So grab the pull-up bar, hangand one.
Note that this one's actually alittle bit technical, so bear
with me.
But we want to make sure thatwe're actually retracting the
(10:27):
scapulas a bit while we'rehanging, so you're not letting
that your joint get pulled.
We want to keep a little bit oftension in the upper back,
retract the scapulas, holding ina position as if we were going
to take a pull up.
We were going to take a pull-up.
(10:50):
You're going to get actuallysome good, surprising
development, I think, for yourback muscles by just hanging.
You can actually make somepretty decent gains here,
believe it or not.
Grip strength is also going toimprove a lot.
So again, doesn't matter whereyou're at when you start off,
don't be discouraged.
Your grip is going to pick upvery quickly if you devote
dedicated practice andparticularly if you focus
(11:12):
singularly on this.
Don't waste energy on othertraining goals for a little
while, and you'll recover quitequickly and you'll actually get
to that 60-second hang.
I've seen it happen prettyquick.
I'm not going to give any timeparameters on it because it
really does depend on how muchtime you have to practice.
But if you deprioritize allyour other training goals for a
(11:34):
minute, this can be done in acouple of weeks pretty easy from
almost a pure zero.
So step two then we're actuallygoing to progress now into a
hold.
We want to do the hold in thetop position.
Now you can kind of think of,as we've mastered that bottom
position of the pull up, thelats are stretched, um, your
(11:58):
grip can now take that.
And now that you've got thatdown, um, we're going to
practice the top position of thepull-up.
So this is, you know, helpfulto use a step or a box, so you
obviously don't have to makethat pull-up to get to the top.
But now we're just going tohold and the attempt here is
hold your chest to the bar,retract your shoulder blades so
(12:22):
you're almost going to feel likeyou're trying to touch your
chest to the bar and thensimilar process here we're going
to work to increase that timethat we can hold that position
with our chest up, shouldersretracted, and this one you're
not going to need to progressnearly as far as the hang.
(12:44):
If you can get to the pointwhere you can maintain that
position for about 30 seconds,then you'll be ready to move
step three, which actually youwill have already been getting a
little bit of practice in,because when you're doing that
hold at the top, well okay, stepthree is an eccentric.
(13:04):
An eccentric that's just thenegative portion of the lift,
that's when you are lowering orthe muscle is stretching.
So obviously, every time thatyou executed a hold, you
probably did an eccentric to getback down, which all that means
is, then you just would have,you know, slowly let the weight
of your body overcome yourmuscles and then just allow
(13:25):
yourself to transition from thetop hold to the hang, just doing
that one negative rep duringthe hold phase.
That's going to be your firstexposure to eccentrics.
We can also just call themnegatives, that's it.
You know, if you're not afitness enthusiast, you wouldn't
have heard either term.
So take the scientific one.
But if you're not a fitnessenthusiast, you wouldn't have
heard either term.
(13:45):
So take the scientific one.
But if you're a lifter or afitness hobbyist, you're
probably already familiar withnegatives, so we might just go
with that.
But yeah, so in step three we'reactually going to do focused
negative work and now you'reactually going to start
programming these like you wouldprogram any other strength work
(14:05):
.
So we're going to start at alow dose.
You know, maybe you're workingsets of two, move that up to
sets of three.
You know, eventually you'regoing to progress this up to
sets of five, the way you aregoing to do multiple reps on an
eccentric, though you want thatstep nearby.
So use your step set up in thetop, hold, allow yourself slowly
(14:31):
to come all the way to thebottom and then use your step to
get back up.
We're not even going to attemptthe pull just yet.
Between the hanging, theholding and the eccentrics,
you've basically learned all ofthe skills that you need within
your core to stabilize everypart of this movement.
(14:53):
The only piece that we haveleft out is what's called the
concentric contraction.
So three phases in your musclecontraction Concentric is when
the primary muscle is shortening, eccentric is when the primary
is lengthening.
And isometric is when it isneither lengthening nor
shortening.
So obviously we've already donethe isometric work and we've
(15:15):
already done the eccentric work.
The last piece to add.
Step four this is where we'regoing to finally add the
concentric portion of thepull-up.
Um, and there are.
There's an order kind of to thethe best here.
Um, so we're either going to bedoing partner assisted pull-ups
(15:37):
you're either going to orassisted pull-ups if you're
doing them in the gym and theyhave that machine or, and
distinctly, the third optionhere would be the band pull-up.
Tell you why I have them inthat order.
Skilled spotter is by far thebest because if you have a
(15:57):
skilled spotter, if they've beenworking out with you for a
while, they probably know yoursigns of fatigue, how you're
pushing.
They can help on the way up aslittle as necessary and that can
vary set to set based on whatis needed and then they can also
remove any assistance for thoseeccentrics.
(16:18):
So if you have a skilled andcompetent spotter, you're going
to be able to get full range ofmotion reps with great form and
the absolute minimum assistancethat you require in order to get
that done.
If you're working out in a gymthat has one of those machines
with the assisted pull-up, thatis going to be your second best
(16:40):
option here.
It's not as good as having askilled spotter, just for the
simple fact that it's just astable assistance throughout
every single part of the lift,through the eccentric, through
the concentric, every singleinch, exact same assistance.
So a skilled spotter canprovide a better stimulus than
(17:04):
an assisted pull-up machine can.
Band is in last place because itnow is a variable resistance.
So if you think about when theband is stretched it's obviously
providing more assistance thanwhen it is not stretched.
So when you're on a band you'reactually getting the most help
(17:27):
at the bottom.
So the band is stretched themost there you're, at the bottom
of the lift.
It is giving you the mostassistance when you are trying
to come out of the hole.
Just in terms of power anddeveloping that concentric.
That is the exact worst spot tohave.
Your goal is to developstrength.
You want the challenge in thatexact spot and you also want the
(17:51):
challenge actually at thelockout.
So, anyway, just the strengthcurve that the band is giving
you is not ideal.
But the reason I included iteven though I don't like that is
this is just one of those likereal life things where I have
seen people learn pull ups usingbands.
So I don't want to just shit onit or say it doesn't work
(18:14):
because, like, it totally doeswork.
And then I also think thereason that I have seen it work
so often is, you know, one ofthe places that I see people
learning pull ups the most isdown at Muscle Beach.
I'm in Los Angeles, as you know.
The original Muscle Beach downthere in Santa Monica is a place
I've been working out for years, seen lots of people learn
pull-ups, and so, yeah, outthere on the beach, actually,
(18:40):
skilled spotters are available,but some people are antisocial,
some people don't want to mix itup, whatever.
There definitely isn't anassisted pull-up machine out
there.
And so, yeah, I'm just tellingthe truth, I've seen tons of
people learn pull-ups with justthe progressions I talked about
here and bands Going to wrap itup in a second.
(19:02):
But again, I just want toreiterate that I've seen people
do this a lot.
But I also work out in one ofthe most famous outdoor
bodyweight calisthenic gyms inthe world.
When I go into the big box gymsthat I also go into in other
places, I think one of the bigreasons that a lot of people
haven't been able to get theirfirst pull-up is they don't have
(19:25):
the process down, been able toget their first pull-up is they
don't have the process down.
They're typically starting withlat pull-downs, like we
mentioned, and you've got to geta little bit more specific
skill if you're ever going toachieve that first pull-up.
So, anyway, that's it.
That's my piece.
If you've never gotten apull-up, that should be your
training goal right now.
Make time for it.
That's not you.
(19:45):
Send this to somebody who needsit.
Let's get them going, um.
So anyway, I want to transitionand actually talk about ag1
athletic greens, that is, youknow supplement that I have
taken at one point.
Um, it's one of the biggestsponsors of health and wellness
podcasts and probably won't wantto sponsor this show after this
(20:09):
segment.
But a quick note and not to betoo sanctimonious, but that is
actually why I appreciate andenjoy being independent.
I'm not beholden to sayinganything other than what is my
best current understanding.
This is a product that I wasusing at one point, so obviously
at that time I might've saidsomething different, but in
(20:33):
light of all the availableinformation I have now, I'm not
really capable of saying what Iwould have said two years ago.
I personally just have a hardtime selling things that I don't
believe in Not proud of it,probably my worst job ever.
I actually had a door-to-doorsales job and I made the mistake
(20:54):
of Googling my company and Ilanded on the Better Business
Bureau and I just realized thatwe were a really terrible
company and after that I justreally started to suck at sales.
I had actually been prettydecent at it prior to that.
I knew how to sell a system andobviously a lot of my
(21:15):
co-workers continued to sellsystems.
There's a set of techniques thatyou can use when you're in a
sales situation.
They don't work 100% of thetime, but they work enough of
the time that, almost like achecklist, there's a certain set
of skills that you can learnand this is something that even
(21:35):
why I have this show it kind ofmade me my own time in sales
actually made me a little bittoxic of the pitch.
There isn't really any companythat I've worked for in sales
that I didn't grow to not enjoy,and that's probably you know in
fairness, because I'm surethere's people out there who
love their job in sales.
(21:55):
I'm sure, if you believe in theproduct that you're selling,
that it's possible to feel thatway.
I never had that experience, so, unfortunately.
I never had that experience.
(22:24):
So, unfortunately, I have a setof skills where I can spot
sales pitches.
I know how to do them very welland I still you know, weird
idealist in me.
I strive for a world, you know,full of products and ideas so
good that they don't actuallyrequire marketing or sales.
But anyway, dr Rhonda Patrickshe put out a video critiquing
AG1.
Background on her she has a PhDin biomedical science from the
University of Tennessee.
She completed her postdoctoralfellowship in nutritional
biochemistry oh, and that was atChildren's Hospital in Oakland
(22:48):
Just want to shout that outbecause I got friends and family
up in the Bay and her workfocuses on the interconnections
between micronutrientdeficiencies, aging and age
related diseases.
She was asked for her opinionon athletic greens and I just
thought her framing was reallygood.
(23:09):
She was basically saying it's amultivitamin.
Her issue was the framing of itas greens or a green powder.
But she says if drinking yourmultivitamin is how you prefer
to do it, go for it, but if youthink you're getting additional
benefits like a serving ofgreens, that's almost certainly
(23:31):
not the case.
She pointed out that there areminuscule amounts of the
nutrients and probiotics thatare promoted and it's a bit like
a drop in the ocean, unless ifit is functioning as a placebo,
then cool.
But that's the inconvenientthing about listening to people
(23:55):
like me.
If you don't believe in itanymore, then the placebo effect
is inert.
But yeah, no, anyway, it reallyis not a replacement for greens
or fruit.
It's not a superfood.
If you're using it as amultivitamin, that's great.
Last time that we had discussedgreens I think that's kind of
(24:16):
where I was at, run back theepisode or call me out if I'm
wrong, but I was using it askind of a cover, my ass
amendment to make sure thatthere was no key nutrients that
I was missing.
Since I've stopped drinkinggreen powder, I've made a
personal best on a deadlift.
I've improved all my milesplits.
(24:38):
In fairness to Athletic Greens,I don't think it's reflective
of anything except for mytraining programming my training
programming, sorry, and myincreased focus on those skills.
But I only highlight that tojust say that discontinuing
Athletic Greens, I don't thinkit negatively impacted me in any
(25:02):
way and I'm not sure it wasadding anything to my situation
while I was using it.
So anyway, that's my currentposition on greens powders and,
yeah, I think Ron and Patrickkind of nailed it.
If you're taking it as amultivitamin, that's your
expectations, that's what you'regetting into.
Cool.
(25:22):
If you think you can pound someathletic greens and skip out on
vegetables, yeah, I don't knowif that's a solid thought.
The scientists in the field weresaying, yeah, so we did an
(25:50):
episode on Huberman recently,but so I'll admit, I was
actually having someconversations with some friends
in Oakland and I didn't realizethis, but actually I was like
two degrees of separation awayfrom some of the people that
were mentioned in that New Yorkmagazine.
(26:11):
So anyway, that was just funny.
I'm actually not going to wadeinto that aspect of Huberman.
I said that last episode.
I'm not interested in hisrelationship or relationships.
In his relationship orrelationships.
(26:46):
What I am interested is he is,you know, I think, the face of
you know, neuroscience, possiblylike health and wellness.
He or at least in the public'seye right now, like he is the
position of science in a numberof fields.
So I think that there's aresponsibility that he has as
that person.
So anyway, I want to put allthat out there, just because
whenever you're critiquingsomebody who tops in their field
, there's always that I thinkthere could be an interpretation
of malice on anybody critiquingthem for any number of reasons.
(27:11):
So you know, before we jumpinto him again, I just want to
say that I'm kind of speaking onhim because of his success and
because of the responsibilitythat I think comes with that,
and again I mentioned it on theepisode.
But reiterate too that Ilistened to a bunch of his early
episodes and so I don't haveany reason to think that
(27:34):
anything I'm about to say orhighlight, because some of this
is coming from other folks.
But I have no reason to thinkthat he's not intelligent enough
to understand absolutelyeverything that we're about to
hit on here.
So, as he does have the biggestplatform, I just hope he
chooses to use it in a way thatcan advance science and not just
(27:58):
the products and brands andaffiliations that the show
invariably will pick up with itssuccess.
But anyway, they're preambleout of the way.
So there was a recent clip thatHuberman tweeted.
It was from a larger episode,like a three-hour episode that
honestly I don't think it wasnew, but for some reason the
(28:20):
tweet kind of sparked a bunch ofscientists and actually they
really did have some fun quotes.
So it was a matthew hill phd inbehavioral neuroscience uh,
university of calgary.
He has studied theendocannabinoid system for over
two decades and he said holyfucking shit, it is actually
(28:43):
disturbing how inaccurate theoverwhelming majority of what is
said here is Peter Grinspoon, aphysician, massachusetts
General Hospital, instructor atHarvard Medical School, and then
he wrote a book Seeing Throughthe Smoke.
A Cannabis Expert Untangles theTruth About Marijuana.
So he said does anybody knowwhat drug he's talking about?
(29:08):
Ryan Marino, board certifiedphysician, medical toxicology
addiction medicine.
So in response to the Twitterclip he said 20 minutes of made
up nonsense.
Almost none of it true and theepisode as a whole makes no
sense.
It's absurd.
(29:28):
This man is considered anauthority in science
communication.
So I've got more.
There's still more scientistssaying funny things, but no, I
think we should probably getinto what he actually said.
That got them so upset.
And yeah, that's again.
Most of what I'm trying toreally highlight here is that
(29:51):
for somebody who is now theauthority in science, that there
is a standard that he's goingto have to live up to, as if
he's going to carry that mantle,and so what he said that was
bothering the scientists First.
First was that this was fun forme.
I had to learn a little bit tooon this one.
So, um, you know, no pointbeing sanctimonious, uh.
(30:12):
But so in his information hewas mentioning you know often
the distinction between sativaand indica strains, something
that potheads have been doingfor a long time.
But that's actually not part ofcurrent science.
The term, as I also just learned, is varieties, and the reason
(30:34):
or justification is that therearen't really good examples of
pure indica or sativa strains inmodern cannabis, which has been
crossed many times over again.
Full disclosure.
I used to grow cannabis myselfon a perpetual harvest system
that I modeled after Dutchindoor cultivation.
(30:54):
This was in West Hollywood,california, so you don't have to
tell anybody it was all good.
But I just mentioned because Ihave a little bit more folk
knowledge on cannabishorticulture consumption and all
of that than the average bear.
And yeah, so I have also usedindica and sativa.
(31:19):
But then when I was actuallyfact-checking to see who was
right me and Andrew or thescientists the scientist
reasoning is actually prettysolid.
I do know my genetics andstrains pretty well and then one
of the examples they wereciting was how you can even take
a cannabis cup winning strainlike, for example, ak-47.
It has won both Best Indica andBest Sativa in different years.
(31:44):
So the distinction, althoughanybody who has smoked pot is
going to be well aware of itmyself, who grew it and used it
for a long time, also had thatdistinction.
No, the facts are pretty clearand actually the description of
strains is pretty nebulous andit's a moving target Strains
(32:05):
that were once consideredindicas or considered sativas at
various times, and vice versa.
The main point not to throwaway our use of strains.
It's fine in an informalconversation or at your
dispensary, but when you'rehaving a discussion about the
(32:28):
science, um, it's notappropriate.
Um, because, well, hubermanstarts to make claims about
cannabis based on itsdistinction, on whether it is
indica or sativa and those notbeing, uh, scientific categories
, um, it again.
(32:48):
This is why, in the eyes of thescientists, these amounted to,
you know, nonsense, um, or wordsalad was one of their favorite
ones, um, and and specificallywhat they were citing.
So he made claims that you knowabout the strains as he used and
they don't like that term buthow it would alter memory or
appetite based on those factors.
(33:10):
And to all of those questions,none of those mechanisms are
known.
They are being studied andnobody knows any of that.
The terminology is, admittedly,a holdover from stoner culture,
find an informal conversationnot appropriate for a scientific
one.
(33:30):
And then to me, just kind ofironically, because he's using
the language of stoner culture.
But then you know, huberman doesoffer many outdated cannabis
stereotypes, you know, one ofthem being that it will almost
always cause memory problems.
This is being studied currentlyand that's not what the
(33:50):
scientists say.
Short-term memory loss has beennoted, not long-term memory
loss, according to availableliterature, and it does not shut
down the hippocampus, animportant component for memory
functions, for memory functions.
(34:11):
So yeah, I do want to becareful here because I'm not a
scientist and I like thecritiques that the scientists
are making.
We need to present both sidesof any unknown issue, but I
think most people are probablyaware of the idea that cannabis
might be associated with memoryloss.
I don't know if people areaware of the other side which we
just mentioned.
I think that is presenting theother side.
Oh, another one it'll alwayscause the munchies.
(34:35):
So again, that's a prettycommonly and long held
stereotype.
First let's go to the anecdotal.
I've been cruising around 10%body fat for almost two decades
while consuming cannabis thewhole time.
Munchies is not a problem forme.
Further study require, I guess,but no, people are actually
(34:56):
studying this exact issue rightnow in rats and nothing
definitive about the mechanismdriving hunger.
They do see it in subjectswhich are rats, but they don't
know what mechanism is drivingit in rats.
So it would follow that theyalso don't know what's driving
(35:17):
it in humans.
But no, it certainly isn'teverybody.
And also, fairness to Huberman,I think that again, this is an
example where maybe this is finein an unscientific discussion,
that that's a heuristic smokepot and you'll get the munchies.
(35:38):
That's true often enough that Ithink most people are going to
be able to live their life bythat rule.
So I don't think it's like amassively egregious error in
that regard, but kind of gettingback to like, why are
scientists, you know, mad withHuberman is that Huberman is the
(35:59):
celebrity face of neuroscienceand even possibly science,
health and wellness at large,and there are many people in the
disciplines that he talks aboutwho are speaking up and upset
with how he oversteps theavailable data to weave a
compelling story about thetopics of his show Back to the
(36:23):
scientists.
It drives the majority of usinsane.
When you go to any neuroscienceconference, when someone
mentions huberman's name,everyone sighs and rolls their
eyes.
So that's matthew hill.
Uh, phd, neuroscience um,university of calgary, um,
ironically, also studied theendocannabinoid system for more
than two decades, or did wealready?
(36:44):
Yeah, yeah, we alreadymentioned him, but yeah, I guess
he's mad.
He's been doing this for 20years, um, and then, uh.
So now we got one from lindaclumpers.
She is university of vermontclinical pharmacologist.
Um, she says huberman usesjargon and phrases that are
related to how cannabiscompounds work.
So it might sound impressiveand legitimate, but what he and
(37:11):
again, people aren't just likebeing prickly and picking at
errors.
Huberman has a responsibility tolive up to with the stature of
the position that he has workedhis way into, and it's
impossible for him or anybody tobe definitive or all-knowing
about everything that he's goingto cover on his show.
(37:31):
On his show and if you're herelistening to Mind Muscle, you're
also savvy about how most ofthe media ecosystem is formed,
and particularly when you startsigning deals with WME, it's not
conspiratorial to suggest thatthere are products and other
interests that wind up weavingtheir way into the stories of
every single show that's backedby that much.
(37:55):
So, anyway, I actually see himas having an opportunity here.
He has a massive platform.
It's about to get even bigger.
And actually, don't take it fromme, I'm not a scientist.
As a steward of science and anacademic, it's imperative that
the statements one makes arefactual, based on evidence and
(38:16):
put into the appropriate context.
Linda Klumper's, again, whensomething is uncertain or
nuanced, you must discloseopposing opinions and provide
support for those arguments withdata or clarify you don't know
about a certain topic.
So anyway, that, lindaKlumper's, you know, finishing
up there.
So anyway, that, lindaClumper's, you know, finishing
up there.
But that is kind of what me andthe scientists that I am can
(38:40):
choose to either be on the sideof science or be on the side of
telling stories.
And his story isn't written yet.
(39:08):
So anyway, I'm going to continueto be hopeful that you know,
maybe once you get paid and youand you get your kind of fuck
you money, um, you eventuallyjust kind of stop caring um and
he can, you know, actually bewhat, what he, uh, you know,
markets himself to be of, um,this popular communicator of
(39:30):
science.
Um, I, I liked some of theearly episodes, as I mentioned,
mentioned.
I've learned some things.
So I understand somebody beinga fan and getting positive
things, but I do think somewhatof his intelligence and ability
could be doing even better andreally hope he does.
But just one random dude.
So who cares?
In some regard, right, butanyway, last thing I want to
(39:53):
talk about was so there's anarticle I came across in the
Atlantic like the title the FADDiet to End All FAD Diets, and
it was all about theintermittent fasting trend.
First thing I found interestingwas it was trying to pin down
when the intermittent fastingfad began.
(40:15):
Pinned down when theintermittent fasting fad began,
and so they pinned it at 2015 or2012.
I'm not trying to be a hipster,I actually kind of remember
getting into it a little earlierthan that.
I came in, if anyone elseremembers this, there was a blog
, swedish model turned powerlifter.
His name was Martin Beckran andhe had this blog called Lean
(40:36):
Gains in the early 2000s.
And 16-8 was the protocolpopularized back then 16-hour
fast, eight-hour eating window.
And what made it interesting tome at the time was that, if you
guys remember kind of like thegym culture anyway, in the early
2000s, the popular idea backthen was actually like five or
(40:56):
six meals.
You wanted frequent meals tostoke the metabolic fire.
You know that was the way wedid it, and so when I came
across lean gains, I wasactually like terrified of going
16 hours without protein,because I had been indoctrinated
at that point in my life tobelieve that that would
completely destroy all themuscle that I've been working so
(41:21):
hard for.
For me, some of the benefitsthat I got it merely doing lean
gains or intermittent fastingback then in my 20s made me
generally less dogmatic aboutnutrient and meal timing.
Prior to that I really was.
Post-workout meal was alsosuper big to me.
Um, I think I still hit thatthen and it's still important.
(41:44):
I don't want to completelyminimize it.
I just I thought, um, it was myreligion for a while and, um,
but uh, yeah, you don't have tobe as tight as I used to be with
the macros and the timing andall that stuff post-workout, um,
so yeah, lean gains positiveexperience.
It may be less dogmatic aboutnutrient timing, uh, meal timing
(42:07):
, um, and then also you knowtechnically true that it maybe
helped me balance drinking andpartying and being lean in my
20s in the interest ofpresenting both sides.
Could also have been the factthat I was in my 20s, but I
guess we'll never know.
(42:27):
It did not survive my partyphase though, as my go-to, my
party phase though as my go-tonutrition strategy.
And anyway, enough about mine.
Uh, the article was citing youknow 2012, michael mosley, with
the 5-2 protocol, as, like, theorigin of the fad.
(42:47):
Um, I disagree on, like myinsufferable fitness hipster um
bit that you already heard.
Um, okay, one more.
We were definitely aware oflike 5-2 and a whole bunch of
other protocols, even in theearly 2000s, um, 16-8 was chosen
for lifestyle factors, kind oftilting towards the partying
(43:09):
thing.
Um, but whatever, I'm actuallywilling to admit that maybe they
did their research and maybeGoogle trends say that 2012 is
when it, uh, you know, morphedout of my you know little
subculture.
Um, but now also, both of usare wrong on years when you
consider that Bernard McFaddenwas popularizing, you know,
(43:30):
fasting in the early 1900s andhe was also not the first person
to do it.
But anyway, part of why Istarted there was that's kind of
.
The only thing I disagree withthis article on Main point was
that intermittent fastingremains one of the most popular
fad diets, in spite of mixedevidence at best.
(43:55):
We've talked about that here.
The article reiterated thatthere's some short-term studies
showing weight loss.
The long-term studies are notgood.
So, as far as the otherassociated or asserted not
(44:18):
associated, the other assertedbenefits would be what do they
say?
Improving insulin sensitivity,cardiovascular health,
alzheimer's, parkinson's.
Even the people who did thosestudies argue that, though
fasting is broadly favorable,whether people who fast over the
(44:42):
span of years would ever accruethe health benefits seen in
animals also remainsundetermined, determined.
Um, obviously, you can obviouslyunderstand why people that are
dealing with health issues aregoing to seek out, um solutions
for it.
I just don't think the evidenceis as strong as people say.
(45:04):
It is, um, what it was actuallyreally focusing to those is why
I actually don't even want torelitigate this today.
So, um, yeah, I'm not going tospend as much time debunking
fasting, but I kind of want tomore focus on why is it?
Why does it continue to bepopular?
Why do people find this to bean answer to their various
(45:26):
health problems, or at leastfind it one that they're willing
to entertain and try?
And you know, frankly, what'sinteresting in the article says
this is that one it's uh, it'shard Um, that that's kind of why
it's uh, popularity is somewhatsurprising, because this isn't
easy to do.
But, um, you know I I think itis intuitive for a lot of people
(45:49):
to assume that pushing yourbody to its limits is a good
thing, because it is a goodthing in a lot of contexts.
But whether you're working outor whether you're setting up a
diet, you have to keep in mindthat the extremes well, it's
definitely possible to even havetoo much of good things.
It's not a singular principleto just maximize or go to the
(46:10):
extremes.
Extremes are always going toseem, more you know, more
effective, because more isbetter feels intuitively correct
.
But you know, as we know incountless ways, that's not
always going to be true.
One other aspect that somethingthat's difficult is going to
give you is it actually doesbuild in-group status to
(46:32):
followers.
The discipline that it takes tofinish is often glorified or
even moralized in communitiesthat promote fasting, and
obviously, before it was everused for nutritional shows of
faith, it was used in religiouspractice.
So it has a long history ofbasically just demonstrating
(46:57):
one's in-group status.
This, I think, is a big part ofwhy it continues to be popular
throughout the ages.
In a sense too and I don't wantto relate it again science not
confirming its benefits ispartly why, or at least it's
(47:18):
signaling that there's otherreasons why people fast besides
the health benefits.
Maybe the point of fasting isn'thealth at all.
Most people are going to do itand maybe they see results.
Maybe they don't, but eitherway, surviving a test of will is
proof that the mind canovercome the body.
(47:40):
And earlier in this episode youwould have caught me saying on
pull-ups you know, reaching forthings that are difficult is a
good thing, right?
Well, this is why we got tohave some nuance and subtlety
with everything.
(48:03):
Part of our chase foroptimization with health, I
think, can naturally lead to aplace where we're trying to
achieve some form oftranscendence through these
means, and I don't want to labelit good or bad, but I think it
might be a misuse of thepractices.
That's all that I will.
If those are things that getpeople attached and into the
practices, then maybe I got tocreate a little bit of space and
(48:24):
allow for that.
But I don't know if that'sreally what we're striving to do
is create groups and tribes ofworkout and nutrition people.
But anyway, one point all this,I think, was actually pretty
well covered in the article, butone point that I just wanted to
add to the discussion becausethere was a time when I was
(48:46):
actually promoting fasting to myown clients and using it myself
.
My favorite line back then wasit's not about what you eat,
it's about when you eat.
And that line worked a lot whenI was selling people on fasting
, for a couple reasons.
One, I was in good shape and Iwas saying it and it also, more
(49:07):
importantly to me, it appeals towhat we want to be true, that
what we eat doesn't matter, thatwhat we eat doesn't matter.
(49:30):
People love it.
When a guy with people wantedto be true that you could be
that dude at the party with thesix-pack throwing down beers and
yeah, not the six-pack thatanybody can buy at a convenience
store, you know the one on yourstomach and yeah, it's like
literally the image of everybeer commercial.
(49:51):
So when I was that 20 somethingguy telling people about
fasting being the secret to livethat lifestyle, it was
something people wanted to hear,so they believed me when I said
it.
You know it for others, becausethat's not other people's goal,
but for others I think it also.
(50:12):
It kind of promises likeimprovements to nearly every
single aspect of your healthwithout actually changing
anything, and that's alsoobviously something that we
would like to be true aredifficult to get out, because
(50:37):
the best stories and the bestcommercials anybody here, and
myself included, understands thetechniques underwriting every
single one of them.
The only problem is thatthey're not true and they don't
work except for selling products.
So the I do deeply understandthe appeal, um, but no, it's
(50:59):
frustrating to me, and this isat least something I'm trying to
, not just complain about,something I'm trying to help out
with in my own way.
But the fitness industry andjournalists have made people so
confused about what to eat thatthey just want to throw up their
hands and give up.
Um, and I actually don't thinkthat's the individual's fault.
Like I said, I think that isthe fault of the people who have
(51:23):
been covering this andpopularizing it to the public.
But, yeah, I don't want to be oreven sound like one of these
podcast warriors, because I havethe, have the self awareness to
know I am also a part of thisspace, so I am just trying to
use my, my very limited part ofit to to put out a different
(51:44):
message.
And again, this is it.
This is why it bothers me.
Um, what you eat is important.
It's incredibly important.
Anybody that tries to tell youit isn't.
It's not that they're wrong andI'm right.
They're not setting you up foryour best health.
That's why it's frustrating.
I generally wish well oneverybody.
(52:07):
I hope their livelihoods aregood and all of that.
The only frustrating part isthat it's just not good advice.
For most people, what you eatis really important.
It is far more important thanwhen you eat.
I went through all of thismyself because, again, the
(52:29):
information ecosystem we live inleaves a lot to be desired.
We live in leaves a lot to bedesired.
That was my arc, I don't know,10 plus years.
But if I could get in a timemachine and go back, I actually
probably would slap that20-something version of me and
actually not because of thefasting thing, though, because
(52:50):
of how he used to talk toclients who were parents and so
anytime.
I would actually love to goback in time and punch myself
when I was talking to someparent about fitness advice.
That would be really fun.
And yeah, actually there'sliterally nothing that
20-something version of me coulddo about it.
(53:11):
He would just have to take iton the chin and then shut up.
But anyway, I know I beat up onfasting a lot.
I'm not anti-fasting, used itmyself, guided other people
through it.
(53:31):
I just don't like talking aboutnutrient timing with anyone who
doesn't eat mostly unprocessedfoods, have a grasp of their
current energy balance.
They've got theirmacronutrients dialed into their
current goals.
They're only drinking likecoffee, tea or water.
They got that sleep down sevento nine hours.
If you got all those things inplace then I would love to talk
(53:52):
about nutrient timing with you.
What I again get sick of issomething that I think should be
reserved for advanced fitnessgoals or goals that have nothing
to do with fitness becoming thefront row top page on all of
the health publications.
(54:12):
So anyway, I hope that clearsup why I've been kind of fixated
on this issue.
I like that article.
It's in a great publicationthat's going to get out.
But yeah, that's all I got foryou guys today.
So just to sweep back andsummarize so if you want to get
better at pull-ups assumingyou've never done one four-step
(54:33):
process hang, hold eccentrics ornegatives, get your partner,
your assistant machine or a bandthose four steps are going to
get you into your first pull-up.
Athletic green supplement that Iused to take I think it's good
to kind of think of as amultivitamin.
If that's your favorite way toget a multivitamin, drinking it
(54:56):
like that, keep it up, but justdon't think that it's replacing
greens, if that's what you'regetting it.
For.
Andrew Huberman, he wasupsetting the scientists.
I'm more on the scientist sidewith this one.
He's got a lot to live up towith the platform that he has
(55:18):
built.
And, yeah, I hope that he takesthe helpful criticism from the
scientists in the fields he'sbeen talking about and I hope he
takes their message to heart.
And yeah, last but not least youleast, obviously I've done my
latest fasting takedown, similarthing, and I'm not just trying
(55:42):
to be like that formless guy whosplits the issues.
It can be useful for somepeople in some context that this
really isn't the page one newsfor health and fitness that
people might have.
You believe it is if you'rechecking in on the fitness space
.
But anyway, guys, in some ways,just to that point, I'll keep
(56:05):
up with the fitness space alittle bit so you don't have to
um, but no, you know I don'twant to attach to that too
strong.
You should be fact checking me,keeping me honest, uh,
informing yourself on the spaceas well, um, commenting too and
letting me know what the hell Ishould even be looking at Um
cause I do.
I love when you guys push me umto keep learning, but anyway,
(56:28):
remember, mind and muscle areinseparably intertwined.
No gains without brains.
Keep lifting and learning, I'lldo the same.
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