March 14, 2024 • 45 mins
Time's ticking on daylight saving debates, and we're here to unravel the complexities of this contentious practice. Discover the unexpected history and vested interests of clock-changing in our latest Mind Muscle episode. It's not the farmers clamoring for that extra hour of daylight, contrary to popular belief - so who benefits, and at what cost? We delve into the origins of this century-old tradition, the economics of evening light, and the surprising advocates for and against the time switch. From golfers to retailers, the players in this game of hours might just surprise you.
Is the extra sunlight worth the lost sleep? We're examining the pros and cons of making daylight saving time a permanent fixture. Hear how the bipartisan push for endless summer evenings stacks up against the scientific preference for standard time—with our health and circadian rhythms hanging in the balance. The debate is laden with unexpected allies and opponents, from ski resorts to schools, and we're breaking down their arguments to see where the hands of the clock should rightfully point.
Join us as we ponder the broader implications of our time-keeping traditions and how they resonate through our daily routines. The conversation doesn't stop at whether we should abandon clock changes; it extends to reimagining our societal structures. Could we be on the cusp of a synchronization with the sun that reshapes work, school, and play? Share your thoughts and experiences with us as we question, learn, and grow together in search of a harmonious future that respects both the sun's journey and our well-being.
Producer: Thor Benander
Editor: Luke Morey
Intro Theme: Ajax Benander
Intro: Timothy Durant
For more, visit Simon at The Antagonist
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon Devere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place we study the history, science and philosophy Behind
everything in health and fitness.
Today I am Simon Devere andthere is nothing new except all
(00:30):
that has been forgotten.
All right, it's about that timeof year, so I'm going to take a
deep dive into daylight savingstime.
We just flipped our clocks lastweekend, so it's kind of an
antiquated saying, if you thinkabout it.
I didn't flip any clocks.
(00:50):
Most of my clocks just adjustwithout me doing anything and,
to be honest, I didn't evennotice that we had shifted
clocks until somebody mentionedit later in the day, because my
phone, my watch, everythingadjusts.
So, yeah, Anyway, got to retirethat I didn't flip any clocks,
in all honesty.
(01:11):
But this is a topic we'veactually touched on A little bit
.
On the show we talked of kindof how to sink your body to your
circadian rhythm for optimumhealth and fitness, if you will.
Actually, that's another word.
We should strike the optimumhealth and fitness.
I'm on a roll today, but yeah,this is a topic that we touched
(01:32):
on in a previous episode.
We're going to make sure tocome at it from a different
angle.
So we will touch on a littlebit of the chronobiology, if you
will, the study of thebiological rhythms, how the
light cycles affect our health.
But today I want to focus moreon a relevant aspect of this,
(01:53):
which is just the debate betweenwhether we stop shifting our
clocks twice a year and then, ifwe do that, whether we choose
to do that on standard time ordaylight savings time.
So, yeah, this is actuallysomething that's been passed in
(02:15):
a majority of states.
It's going to actually requirefederal legislation for anybody
to actually really make anysignificant changes to our
clocks, but this is somethingthat is in consideration.
So I just thought, rather thanwe're not going to really talk
about having to sink yourroutines to circadian rhythms
(02:37):
today We've already done that Iwant to just actually look at
the science on how health isimpacted by the various
protocols, so that we can chooseto do, potentially, what the
best path forward is.
And obviously, though, before wedo that, one thing that always
has driven me crazy is peoplestill say that we do this for
(03:00):
farmers.
Probably touched on this lasttime, but the myth about this
starting from farmers isactually funny, as pervasive as
it is, because farmers are oneof the groups, when this has
been put up in the past, thatconsistently lobbies against it.
So we're going to discuss allof the lobby groups.
(03:22):
But I just want to mention thatupfront that farmers are
actually one of the groups thatconsistently lobbies against
changing the clocks.
So I'm not sure why thatmisconception has lasted so long
.
But yeah, I actually thinklet's just jump right in.
We're going to start with thathistory and then we'll get into
(03:44):
the various strategies.
But the first thing to put torest is just that Daylight
Saving Time was never institutedin order to help farmers, and
on a farm you are kind of drivenby the sunlight regardless of
the season.
But Daylight Saving Timeactually presented another
(04:04):
challenge for farmers to bringtheir goods to market because,
again, typically they get upwith the sun, they're not
looking at the clock.
So when you adjust the civiltime, if you will, so that there
are fewer morning hours whenthe farmers are awake, it
actually makes it harder forthem to get their crops to
(04:25):
market or their wares to market.
So that's kind of why,historically, farmers have
actually lobbied againstextending Daylight Saving Time.
So, yeah, this wasn't done tohelp out farmers.
The first time that we actuallydid.
It was in the World Wars, worldWar I.
We did it in order to saveenergy.
(04:46):
We were using coal, so havingmore daylight hours would mean
that people would burn less coal.
Prior to that it had actuallybeen advocated by a few people.
The war was actually what madeit get put in.
But another commonmisattribution Ben Franklin was
(05:08):
not one of the people whoinvented it.
I guess he jokingly proposedthat perigions because he
economized their candle use byrising earlier.
But he wasn't the realarchitect of Daylight Savings.
One person that could possiblybe would be George Vernon Hudson
(05:30):
, a New Zealand entomologist.
So he actually proposed atwo-hour Daylight Savings shift
to the Wellington PhilosophicalSociety.
The idea was to have moredaylight hours for leisure
activities and work.
This did not immediately takeroot, but obviously that's kind
of why we have it to this day.
(05:52):
That's a big reason why itactually still persists beyond
the World Wars.
There was actually another bigearly advocate, british guy,
william Willett.
That's fun, but he actuallywanted more time for golf.
So it's the same motivation.
He wanted more afternoonleisure hours.
(06:13):
So he had proposed this at onepoint.
Again, it wasn't adopted, butthe golf industry, which now
brings in about $70 billionannually in the US has lobbied
for daylight savings times.
Expansion in multipleiterations happened in the 80s
(06:35):
and in 2005.
So there have been variousgroups.
The golf industry has been bigin lobbying to expand daylight
savings time.
It's also, I guess,coincidental or maybe not, it's
up to you but the first twostates to pass measures to
explore permanent daylightsavings times were Florida and
(06:57):
California.
There's also happened to be thetwo states with the most golf
jobs, so again, could be purecoincidence.
Also, it wouldn't be shockingjust to people that live in the
sunny states like more sunshine.
There may not be a nefariousconspiracy there, but it is
funny that those were the firsttwo.
Again, daylight savings firstfound practical application
(07:20):
during World War I.
We actually didn't pioneer that, Germany did, and then
everybody who was fightingagainst Germany had to do it to
also conserve coal.
So this was the real reasonthat we got into daylight
savings.
Postwar, a lot of countriesactually went back to know
(07:42):
daylight savings, and now thisis when the lobbying, if you
will, starts kicking.
There was also again concernswith energy in the 1970s, when
oil shortages started to come up.
So the idea of shiftingdaylight hours to conserve
energy was discussed.
We'll, I guess get into thisdeeper later, so I won't touch
(08:05):
it too much now.
But that link is looking lessand less solid.
But as far as decreasing yourenergy consumption when you
switch, that's something that isprobably less relevant in the
modern world for a lot ofreasons.
But bottom line, we're still onthe history Daylight savings
time had not been adoptedglobally at this point.
(08:28):
So there again was a big pushfrom lobbying groups and most of
them were going to come fromnot only golf, which we already
mentioned, anything that wasassociated with leisure
activities, retail.
The same argument was therethat if people had sunshine
hours after they were done withwork, they would have more time
(08:50):
for that.
You don't think of this as likea big lobby group, but one of
the people that lobbied for it,I believe, was the Clorox
Corporation.
I think one of theirsubsidiaries owned some charcoal
briquettes and they had donethe math and estimated that it
would make them another $100million.
Anyway, I don't think it's likebig charcoal that pushed it.
(09:13):
There are a lot of economicinterests that were lobbying to
have some daylight hours afterwork.
That is what has created thispolicy.
That was the point of all that,not to slam a bunch of
lobbyists and, frankly, maybeit's not the worst idea that
people have some daylight hoursafter work.
(09:34):
Yeah, I'm not trying to castany or get any tinfoil hats out
for this section, just paintingout who and what shaped the
policy that we actually have.
And again, my main objective itwasn't farmers.
Farmers have been blamed forthis forever, and at every
(09:58):
iteration of lobbying that wasactually one of the groups that
was going against it, believe itor not, but anyway, I've been
railing against this for years.
I became aware of some of thenegative health impacts
associated with clock shifting.
I thought it was a stupidrelative practice anyway, and so
(10:20):
for me it's been nice to seethat there is actually rising
awareness, shall we say, or atleast a rising public
dissatisfaction with clockshifting.
So public opinion has reallyshifted my way.
It was kind of just once aquiet issue that people didn't
really think about.
It's actually given way topretty vocal discontent from a
(10:45):
lot of different people.
But yeah, well, one importantscientist, politicians,
constituents there isn't reallyany meaningful pushback right
now on not switching our clocks.
What's left to sort out iswhat's the best schedule for us
(11:07):
to be on, but it's kind of niceto know that actually in, I
think, what are objectivelyreally divisive times that
actually so.
Almost every state has at leastconsidered ending daylight
saving time, and in a 2021 pollby YouGov, it's about 62% of
(11:32):
Americans would prefereliminating the need to change
their clocks twice a year.
That's the way they phrased thequestion.
Of that group, 50% say theywould prefer to keep daylight
savings time permanent and 31%are saying that they would
prefer to keep standard timepermanent.
(11:54):
Again, I think what has driventhe awareness and
dissatisfaction?
Well, the dissatisfaction thatwas already baked into it.
Anybody who's ever had to rushto work or late for school we've
all had our bad days because ofclocks, and so, yeah, the
(12:17):
dissatisfaction was always there.
But I think there has beenrising awareness one about the
benefits of sleep as it pertainsto health broadly, and then,
specifically, the negativeeffects of clock shifting.
In 2020, jama Neurologyobviously published a study that
(12:38):
outlined a lot of the negativeimpacts, including less sleep,
increases of stroke, increasedheart attack, decreased sense of
well-being, and there's evenmixed studies on traffic
accidents on the days that weshift clocks.
So I do think that risingawareness of this and just the
fact that shifting clocks isstupid it is a negative on
(13:01):
everybody's lives, that this issomething that we are
surprisingly united on, even inthese days of a sharp division.
If you will but I am a guy witha podcast so I shouldn't really
present unity let's actuallynow dive into the two camps.
(13:22):
Let's make this a tribal issue,let's make it a binary.
And yeah, so briefly mentioned,but it is roughly 50% who say
they would prefer to keeppermanent daylight savings time,
31% saying that they would haveto keep it on standard time.
Let's first just go camp bycamp and explore the arguments
(13:45):
of each and also who is backingeach group, and obviously, I
imagine, those of us justlistening and even me talking
about it.
I imagine we all have our ownlifestyles, personal preferences
, work schedules, school thingsthat are obviously going to play
(14:06):
into this.
But yeah, I just want to breakdown which groups.
There's going to be a lot oflobbying groups on both ends of
this and what their argumentsare, and I'm sure we're all
going to have our ownpreferences that are separate
and apart from any of this stuff.
So add this in as you continuethinking about this.
(14:28):
So, anyway, let's say that youare for daylight savings time,
that we should go permanent onthat.
So joining this group is goingto be almost all the retailers
convenience stores, people whosell outdoor products, barbecue
(14:51):
equipment, the golf industrythat we already mentioned,
amusement parks this is actuallywhere I would say the bulk of
the corporate lobbying is beingdone.
This has the backing of mostchambers of commerce and I think
this is, in general, the morepopular opinion.
(15:12):
A couple explanations.
One I think through all of theyears of clock shifting, we
probably associate the shift todaylight savings time better the
spring forward than the fallback.
That's all I have to say.
You know I don't agree with theuse of language here, but
oftentimes in fall people saythey lost an hour of sleep or
they gained an hour of sleep.
(15:32):
I tend to question their timemanagement, but that that is
something that's commonly said.
So I just think that there is apositive association with
spring forward and daylightsavings, a negative association
with fallback or Standard time,just because when people make
those respective clock shiftshow it feels when they're doing
(15:57):
it.
Similarly, I would say thatthere's probably just going to
be a natural positiveAssociation with daylight
savings time because thosethat's the summer, sunny, fun
months.
So you know just for years ofassociating the daylight savings
time with summer and Standardtime with winter.
(16:20):
I just think there is, you know, going to be a natural
psychological advantage fordaylight savings time.
When we just begin to thinkabout this.
There is currently a bipartisanbill that I Think it's been put
forth by Marco Rubio in thehouse does a backing from both
(16:41):
sides of the aisle and it isactually pushing for permanent
daylight savings.
I will say the evidence citedin the bill.
It does cherry pick theevidence a little bit because
the argument being made in thebill is obviously not daylight
savings time versus Shifting ourclocks twice a year.
(17:05):
It is daylight savings timeversus standard time.
The issue is the the studiescited are all comparing the
impact of daylight savings timeto clock shifting.
So all of the evidence thatthat cited is valid and would
support Switching to daylightsavings time only, but it would
also support switching tostandard time only.
(17:27):
So what?
One of the things that's goingto be challenging With the data
that we have is we just don'tactually have studies to compare
, you know, long runs of beingon standard time versus long
runs on daylight savings time.
All of the studies we have, youknow, deal with people shifting
their clocks twice a year.
(17:49):
So we know a lot about thenegative health impacts of that.
We don't know as much directcomparison between daylight
savings time and standard time.
So in in the bill beingadvanced, they the argument is
that daylight savings time mightbe Healthier than standard time
(18:11):
, and that's actually not wherethe scientists are on this.
So I do think that the the billthat's being events probably
reflects more the lobbyinggroups and again, probably just
positive connotations.
Like I said, I don't think thisis actually, again, this is a
popular issue with people, soyou know, supporting both sides.
So I don't think we have to,you know, rush to conspiracy,
(18:34):
but but there are obviously Verybig lobbying groups that
mentioned the US Chamber ofCommerce.
There Also, in the past wealready have we have seen
significant lobby efforts toextend daylight savings time.
You know, as we mentioned in thehistory After the world wars we
(18:55):
didn't just go to daylightsavings time, we rolled it back.
And then there was.
It was like the petroleumindustry had, you know, noticed
that consumer spending they were.
They were the first to noticeit and I think as early as like
1930.
So a lot of business interestshave been lobbying for daylight
hours after work for a very longtime.
(19:17):
There have already been twosuccessful extensions of
daylight savings time once in itwas 86 that extended it for an
hour, and then in 05 theyextended it another two hours.
So yeah, there actually hasbeen consistent lobbying from,
(19:40):
namely, retail and commerce onthe other side, if you will, of
this debate is actually most ofthe science and Researchers.
But there's also some lobbyinggoing on over there too.
Ski resorts, believe it or not,even though you would think that
(20:02):
the daylight hours would helpthem.
Colorado is actually one of theonly states that hasn't enacted
a permanent daylight savingstimes bill, and that is Largely
due to the ski industry.
For them, you know, people aregonna leave Regardless of the
daylight.
It's more about beating traffic.
(20:22):
At least that's what theirresearch shows.
So extending the daylight Intothe the later hours of the day
doesn't up the ski industry.
So Colorado has been one statethat hasn't done this.
Most schools also favor thisthere.
There's an idea there that it'ssafer.
You don't want kids coming toschool In dark or in darkness.
(20:47):
But this one I don't know ifthere's actually a strong link
there, to be honest, becauseyou're gonna catch it on one end
or the other.
You know, either coming orgoing from school, I mean.
So you, you just can't shield,you know, people from the dark.
I actually think there's.
There's a little bit of a mixedbag on safety With cars when we
(21:10):
get into standard time,although that was shown in the
studies.
We'll get into this later, Idon't want to kill it now.
There's some confounding factorsthat point to something that's
little bit more convincing thanWhether you're on daylight
savings or standard time.
Another group, though, that Iwould say is supporting standard
time is going to be TV networks, for the opposite reason as all
(21:33):
your Retailers and everybodythere is that they would prefer
people actually be at homeduring those hours watching
must-see TV.
So you know, we do have a big,powerful and and and wealthy you
know group going against it.
Obviously farmers, believe ornot.
Farmers lobbied against bothextensions and they lobbied
(21:57):
against switching back after thewars.
So, even though people thinkfarmers invented daylight
savings time, they are one ofthe strongest groups actually
against going to a daylightsavings time permanently.
Let's see yeah, did we get themall?
Yes, scientists, ski resorts,schools, yeah, tv.
(22:18):
So that's that pretty muchrounds out the camp of who is in
favor of Going to standard timerather than daylight savings
time permanently.
Yeah, obviously, the the groupof people that I found the most
interesting in this group is, ofcourse, the scientists.
That's that's the people whoseopinions I looked at the most,
(22:38):
and and Scientists, you know,generally advocate for permanent
standard time, or sometimescalled natural time, because it
better aligns with people'sschedules with the Sun.
People who study the issue arepretty much in agreement.
There was a 2022 AmericanMedical Association that well,
(23:02):
in 2022, rather, they theycalled for the end of daylight
savings time, saying that it canactually take months for the
human body to adjust to a newsleep cycle.
If you know, we were waiting,which I do.
I wait the scientist's opinionsjust a little bit higher than
(23:23):
the interest groups, and again,I'm hesitating because I don't
want to cover ground that we'vealready touched on.
We did talk in a previousepisode a lot about how to sink
your body to circadian rhythm.
I think the short way is thatgetting exposure to light in the
morning can start to stimulatea number of things, but namely
(23:46):
production of melatonin.
When you have the access tolight early in the day, it is
then going to.
There is a cascade of effectsthat are going to stem from that
and whole host that we don'twant to touch here.
Go right up the circadianrhythms again if you want to get
to all that today.
(24:07):
But yes, just from thestandpoint of that, there are so
many other considerations thatplay in, obviously what time
you're going to work, what timeyou're going to school.
But if we're looking at it fromthe stance of optimal health,
it is pretty clear that weshould probably favor the
standard time and even thoughthat doesn't, you know, maybe
coordinate with lifestyle oreconomy.
(24:30):
This well, even there, I knowI'll play devil's advocate
because that's one of the big.
You know we can't do thisbecause the economy.
But if people are lessproductive, what do you care?
If you're getting a coupleextra hours and you guys feel
good when you leave work, butthe work you did all day was
below the capacity that youcould have done if you arrested.
Your creative energies couldhave just been better.
(24:51):
So again, I actually think thatthe economy argument is a
little bit of a cop out, becauseI think that we could, you know
, also glean that if people were, people might be, if you were
sick days, people might workbetter, productivity could
increase, et cetera.
But actually now that's justall conjecture.
(25:13):
Anyway, let's actually stick itto the science.
That's getting into my opinion.
Yeah, the you know one more,the nonprofit organization Save
Standard Time.
Its endorsements are from 30sleep science and medical
organizations American Academyof Sleep Medicine, American
Medical Association.
We mentioned American Academyof Neurology the list of
(25:38):
organizations and scientiststhat are backing Standard Time.
Again, when we look at theincentives, it really does
appear that they are mostlyreacting out of the idea that it
is better for people's health,quite frankly.
So yeah, I already started tojump into it, so now I
(25:59):
officially, in my outline, amallowed to do this.
Simon says what do I say?
I was already kind of leadingthere, but I actually I lean
with the scientists on this one.
I've actually gotten a littlebit of flak talking about this
in the past.
So I want to qualify what I'mabout to say, because I really
(26:21):
do get it that not everybody isat liberty to alter some aspects
of their schedule.
So if you're working a nightshift, obviously I think that
businesses and organizationsshould figure out ways to make
sure, in light of everything weknow about circadian rhythms,
light levels and all that, thatwe could accommodate for things
that work.
(26:42):
But there are a lot of peoplenot talking to night shift
workers.
I'm not talking to people thathave to be at work at a specific
time, but there are tons ofpeople who the reason that they
aren't shifting their scheduleisn't that it isn't fungible.
A lot of people are staying upon their screens at night.
(27:04):
So for that population there'sa lot of people who have a lot
of room to make some changes.
All of us, within our capacity,should set our schedule up as
much as we can to the naturalcircadian rhythms, not because I
told you to, but because you'regoing to get more out of your
(27:27):
own days by not fighting yourbiology, by just rolling with it
.
There's obvious limitationswith work and with the structure
of the day that I'm not goingto be able to conquer in one
episode.
But yeah, I just don't want tobe accused of making judgments
about people's lives orinability to change sleep
(27:48):
schedules based on thoseexternal factors.
I know those exist.
Within reason and within yourability, you're going to want to
make shifts to accommodatecircadian rhythm.
Anyway, disclaimer out of theway just because I've already
dealt with those comments in thepast.
I do.
I favor the scientists.
I think we should actuallystick with standard time when we
(28:11):
finally decide to pick a timeand stick with it.
That being said, though, I'mnot really that committed.
I'm way more committed to usnot changing our clocks than me
getting my way on standard time.
I think the case issignificantly better for
(28:32):
standard time, but I think thecase against switching clocks is
even stronger that, even if wedecided on daylight savings time
, I'm not going to be mad.
The other reason, though, thatI'm not going to be mad is that
it's also, just frankly, notgoing to solve all of our issues
(28:56):
with sleep and health.
I alluded to some of that, buta lot of when we really get at
why do people?
This is one that actuallybrings out some pretty strong
opinions.
I think the reason is that it'sso close and fundamental to how
we have to live our lives andhow we have to adapt our lives
(29:17):
into, quite frankly, anindustrial society.
I wish I could have come upwith a better word, because,
with my Montana roots, now thatmakes me sound like the
Unibomber, but no, I thinkthat's where, when we're trying
to figure out how to solve ourtime problem, that's what we're
really getting at is how do wesynchronize and arrive?
(29:39):
How do we have our businessesfunction, schools function, in
light of what we know about ourhealth and all that to get to?
There are way more factors thatplay into this than just
daylight savings and standardtime even, and we're actually
still sticking in the domain oftime.
I'm not even going to unpackany other confounding factors,
(30:04):
at least today, but no, evenwhen we're just sticking in time
, there's also significantdifference in time zones, and
this is why we actually kind ofhave to pause on what we're
seeing with the trafficaccidents, because when we
really hone in and start toisolate what is going on,
something that has a muchstronger case right now is there
(30:28):
are regions that are actuallyjumping ahead.
So time zones.
Obviously, if you're in theeastern part of a time zone
versus the western time, thedifference in the sun's position
on what the clock says can beas much as an hour difference
between the eastern and westernedge.
(30:49):
So in the edges of time zones,so they call these its eccentric
time localities, so these ETLregions, they're basically on
the borders of time zones.
Residents of these areas suffersignificantly higher fatality
(31:13):
rates in car accidents thananywhere else in the time zone.
So I mention that because whenwe do studies comparing, or
rather looking at trafficaccidents with clock shifting,
it's going to be tough to teaseout whether that's not occurring
.
Or say it another way, that maynot be happening, then it may
(31:37):
not be evenly distributedthroughout time zones.
It looks that they are moresignificant in certain areas,
these ETLs, eccentric timelocalities.
So if you are in the middle ofa time zone, the chance that any
one of these clock shifts is asinfluential to you as somebody
(31:58):
living on the edge of a timezone, it does look that the
effects are much more pronouncedin these regions that are close
to the borders.
So, obviously, it doesn'treally matter which schedule you
choose daylight savings time orstandard time if you are living
(32:20):
in an ETL, those zones,regardless of schedule, are
going to have just a little bitmore time distortion for people
who live there.
And again, this just unpacks anissue that I'm actually not even
ready to speak on.
But now we have to get intobasically redrawing time zones,
(32:43):
which I don't know enough about.
I know they're roughly equateto latitude and that's as far as
I'm going to even attempt to goon that one.
But no, I just wanted tointroduce this because this is a
significant confounding factor.
When we start to talk about thenegative effects that we have
noticed in clock shifting, isit's worth mentioning that all
(33:05):
of those impacts are far morepronounced in our eccentric time
localities, and that's notreally something that we can
address with shifting our clocks.
Whichever one you choose,that's still going to be a
problem.
Another massive confoundingfactor that I see in all of this
(33:25):
now is that it's, frankly,artificial light, and I was
alluding to this, but the vastmajority of people, their issue
with sleep and with what's goingon actually isn't the clock
schedule, it's just that theystay up too late looking at
screens and I know there's goingto be a lot of exceptions, but
(33:49):
that's talking about a countryof 300 million and, speaking to
averages, that's the most commonproblem and that's the most
common sleep issue.
So, yeah, when we are focusingon issues like daylight savings,
time time zones, all of that,it can get a little bit
disconnected from the modernlifestyle, because there are
(34:13):
significant people who are notbeing driven by the sun and the
larger issue is actually howmuch artificial light is being
exposed to during the day andthe impacts of that, and
obviously, with the rise of bluelight, glasses, stuff like that
.
People know the impact, butblue light is known to have one
(34:37):
of the most powerfullydisruptive impacts to circadian
rhythms and most people areconsuming it in pretty high
doses throughout the day.
Focusing on daylight savings orstandard time as it pertains to
improving our health, I do wantto circle back to this because
(34:58):
I've really tried to keepeverything I talk about here at
least motivated in the spirit.
We're a little bit majoring inthe miners today.
You know, parsing hairs overwhich time schedule is different
between daylight savings andstandard time.
The big rocks here are, youknow, making sure that you're
(35:19):
getting exposed to the sun earlyin the day, moving around
sufficiently removing the bluelight, getting a good night's
sleep those are the big rocks.
So, again, when we're talkingabout the health impacts that
we're seeing, those, I think,would still be the best first
(35:39):
amendments.
But, you know, just because thereality is we all have to fit
our lives into these schedules.
I still think the topic is worthdiscussing, but I don't want to
bury the lead with diving intothe minutiae of what's better
between daylight savings andstandard time when, you know, I
(36:00):
think most people are juststaying up too late with Netflix
, to be honest.
So, yeah, just to make surethat we're not, with this focus,
that we're not overlookingsurrounding factors and arguably
, frankly, larger factors, if wecould align our sleep and work
(36:23):
schedules with the light that'savailable, it would not only be
better for us, because we, youknow, use electricity and
devices, but it would be betterfor the planet.
So it's, these are questionsthat we do need to ask and,
admittedly, I don't have theanswers.
(36:44):
That was kind of why I doveinto this topic.
So, yeah, that's.
I'm not going to present youguys today with any final
thoughts, because I actuallygenuinely think this is an open
debate.
And, yeah, although I havelobbied against shifting clocks
(37:07):
twice a year for a long time,very passionately, I like the
place we're at, because, whetherwe end up with standard time or
daylight savings, I'll wineither way.
Before we go, though, I'm goingto keep this one short today,
but let's just sum it up realquick.
So, yeah, you know, obviously,today we got through the real
(37:30):
story, or the real history, ifyou will, of daylight savings
time.
It wasn't created by farmers.
Farmers have actually been oneof the groups lobbying against
it for the longest.
There is a rising awareness ofthe negative health impacts.
Now, before many states, we arepresented the choice of either
(37:55):
ending or when we end, shiftingclocks twice a year.
We can either shift over todaylight savings time
permanently or standard timepermanently.
The groups behind that, inshort, think the Chamber of
Commerce, think retail outdoorsfor your daylight savings time,
and behind standard time, you'vegot scientists, schools and
(38:19):
possibly television.
Wherever you sit, on thedaylight savings time or
standard time debate, maybe youdidn't even know it existed, but
yeah, wherever you sit, Iactually think there are valid
points on either end.
That range from economicimpacts, health impacts.
(38:40):
The case for health, frankly,is much stronger on the side of
standard time.
I think it's a bit of a mixedbag when we're talking the
economy.
So, yeah, I guess the onepersonal opinion that I would be
willing to share is that I dothink that we should lead with
health as we consider whatchanges that we are going to
(39:05):
make today.
In a way, the conflict overdaylight savings time versus
standard time, at least thepublic debate of it, could just
be another one of those ofdifferent lobbying groups
putting out their differentmessages.
So I do think that the numberone thing that we should be
listening to.
(39:25):
I feel like I'm in the sameboat, but we should be really
listening to the scientists andwhat they are saying about our
health.
There is one other piece, and Iguess this is going to be just
my little touch on philosophytoday, but I have talked about
this for years, so admittedly, Ido think there is just frankly,
(39:49):
something awry in the way wemark and think about time.
This issue certainly brings itup, but one of the things I
always notice, again when peopletalk about shifting the clock,
is that when we go to daylightsavings time, they'll say that
it adds an hour of daylightAgain, maybe I'm just reading
(40:14):
too deeply into it, but wheneverpeople say that, it just
indicates to me a deepmisunderstanding of time's
nature.
Regardless of how you labeltime or what you call it, it
doesn't actually alter theamount of daylight that we get.
Obviously, the earth's tilt andthe seasons take care of all
(40:34):
that.
So shifting our clocks justchanges what we call certain
hours.
It doesn't alter the amount ofdaylight.
So, yeah, I don't have apassionate side actually to take
on this.
There's the obvious People havework schedules and they have
(40:55):
the patterns and things thatthey've gotten used to.
So I can imagine a lot ofpeople lobbying for what they've
gotten used to, but I'veactually experienced in my own
lifetime that actually alteringa sleep schedule is a lot more
malleable, I think, than mostpeople think.
You probably don't get theopportunity because work, school
(41:18):
life, other reasons but I haveactually experienced and
flourished on more than onedifferent sleep schedule in my
lifetime and I've had to alterit many times.
So I also don't think that thisis something that we need to
think in terms of cookie cutteror top down solutions, if you
(41:41):
will.
There's like a generalprinciple that we really know
works, and that's that youreally should get the morning
light that's going to cue yourbody to ramp up cortisol.
That wakes you up, you feelawake, you feel alert and then,
while that's getting ramped up,you're also triggering your
melatonin production and if thatdoesn't happen, you're not
(42:05):
going to fall asleep well atnight.
So yeah, just as much as anybodycan, they should synchronize to
the solar clock and alsorecognize that, whatever we call
the time, it's a bit relative.
It doesn't really matter, aslong as people are showing up on
time.
And yeah, because I just eventhink about this, when you know
(42:29):
somebody is lobbying on one end,vociferously believing that if
they don't get this, you knowclock time that their business
is going to die.
I don't even know if that'sgoing to happen.
I think people might justadjust and you know, if the time
that we used to do somethingwas called five o'clock but now
it's called four o'clock, Idon't know if that really
(42:50):
matters and I think people areintelligent enough to make those
shifts all on their own.
So I do think some of thecorporate lobbying on this may
just be much ado about nothing.
I think they'll be fine eitherway.
Winter days are short, summerdays are long.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call the time.
(43:13):
There's nothing you can doabout that.
So, yeah, anyway, that's justmy and I don't have a solution.
But I think, as we'reconsidering this, that we should
be leading with health.
I guess some of the changesthat you know people could
consider would be, you know,flexible start times for work
and school.
Some of that is probablyalready going on with work ever
(43:36):
since the pandemic, quitefrankly.
So so maybe the work world cancan lead with some flexible
start schedules, stuff like that.
But yeah, anyway, I don'treally feel like I have a strong
opinion or a horse in the race,necessarily, but this is an
issue that I have foundinteresting for quite a long
(43:56):
time and again, it's not oftenor at least it feels it doesn't
feel like I get to highlight anissue that I feel like there has
actually been genuine progressand people agreeing on.
So, before I finish, I actuallywant to encourage you guys to,
to, you know, reflect on how youguys feel about daylight
(44:18):
savings and standard time.
Which schedule do you prefer?
Think about some of thosedifficult questions Like how
could we restructure work, howcould we restructure school and
our society at large?
You know, I honestly think thatyou know, because, because I
did survey a lot of the answersand why I'm not really willing
(44:39):
to, you know, go hard on any ofthem, is that I don't think
there are a lot of good answersbeing out there.
So, anyway, this is one that Iwant to encourage my mind,
muscle, community to reflect on.
Think how you're thinking thatthis is actually still being
written as we speak and, yeah,I'm not sure we actually have
gotten to the best answer yet.
(45:00):
So, anyway, guys, if you foundthis one interesting, make sure
to share it.
If you've ever, like me, gripedany of your friends about clock
shifting or just had a bad day,you know, flipping your clocks
around.
Share this with somebody youknow who had the same experience
, and maybe they'll getsomething out of it too.
Remember, guys, mind and muscleare inseparably intertwined.
(45:22):
There are no gains withoutbrains.
Keep lifting and learning.
I'll do the same.
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon Devere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place we study the history, science and philosophy Behind
everything in health and fitness.
Today I am Simon Devere andthere is nothing new except all
(00:30):
that has been forgotten.
All right, it's about that timeof year, so I'm going to take a
deep dive into daylight savingstime.
We just flipped our clocks lastweekend, so it's kind of an
antiquated saying, if you thinkabout it.
I didn't flip any clocks.
(00:50):
Most of my clocks just adjustwithout me doing anything and,
to be honest, I didn't evennotice that we had shifted
clocks until somebody mentionedit later in the day, because my
phone, my watch, everythingadjusts.
So, yeah, Anyway, got to retirethat I didn't flip any clocks,
in all honesty.
(01:11):
But this is a topic we'veactually touched on A little bit
.
On the show we talked of kindof how to sink your body to your
circadian rhythm for optimumhealth and fitness, if you will.
Actually, that's another word.
We should strike the optimumhealth and fitness.
I'm on a roll today, but yeah,this is a topic that we touched
(01:32):
on in a previous episode.
We're going to make sure tocome at it from a different
angle.
So we will touch on a littlebit of the chronobiology, if you
will, the study of thebiological rhythms, how the
light cycles affect our health.
But today I want to focus moreon a relevant aspect of this,
(01:53):
which is just the debate betweenwhether we stop shifting our
clocks twice a year and then, ifwe do that, whether we choose
to do that on standard time ordaylight savings time.
So, yeah, this is actuallysomething that's been passed in
(02:15):
a majority of states.
It's going to actually requirefederal legislation for anybody
to actually really make anysignificant changes to our
clocks, but this is somethingthat is in consideration.
So I just thought, rather thanwe're not going to really talk
about having to sink yourroutines to circadian rhythms
(02:37):
today We've already done that Iwant to just actually look at
the science on how health isimpacted by the various
protocols, so that we can chooseto do, potentially, what the
best path forward is.
And obviously, though, before wedo that, one thing that always
has driven me crazy is peoplestill say that we do this for
(03:00):
farmers.
Probably touched on this lasttime, but the myth about this
starting from farmers isactually funny, as pervasive as
it is, because farmers are oneof the groups, when this has
been put up in the past, thatconsistently lobbies against it.
So we're going to discuss allof the lobby groups.
(03:22):
But I just want to mention thatupfront that farmers are
actually one of the groups thatconsistently lobbies against
changing the clocks.
So I'm not sure why thatmisconception has lasted so long
.
But yeah, I actually thinklet's just jump right in.
We're going to start with thathistory and then we'll get into
(03:44):
the various strategies.
But the first thing to put torest is just that Daylight
Saving Time was never institutedin order to help farmers, and
on a farm you are kind of drivenby the sunlight regardless of
the season.
But Daylight Saving Timeactually presented another
(04:04):
challenge for farmers to bringtheir goods to market because,
again, typically they get upwith the sun, they're not
looking at the clock.
So when you adjust the civiltime, if you will, so that there
are fewer morning hours whenthe farmers are awake, it
actually makes it harder forthem to get their crops to
(04:25):
market or their wares to market.
So that's kind of why,historically, farmers have
actually lobbied againstextending Daylight Saving Time.
So, yeah, this wasn't done tohelp out farmers.
The first time that we actuallydid.
It was in the World Wars, worldWar I.
We did it in order to saveenergy.
(04:46):
We were using coal, so havingmore daylight hours would mean
that people would burn less coal.
Prior to that it had actuallybeen advocated by a few people.
The war was actually what madeit get put in.
But another commonmisattribution Ben Franklin was
(05:08):
not one of the people whoinvented it.
I guess he jokingly proposedthat perigions because he
economized their candle use byrising earlier.
But he wasn't the realarchitect of Daylight Savings.
One person that could possiblybe would be George Vernon Hudson
(05:30):
, a New Zealand entomologist.
So he actually proposed atwo-hour Daylight Savings shift
to the Wellington PhilosophicalSociety.
The idea was to have moredaylight hours for leisure
activities and work.
This did not immediately takeroot, but obviously that's kind
of why we have it to this day.
(05:52):
That's a big reason why itactually still persists beyond
the World Wars.
There was actually another bigearly advocate, british guy,
william Willett.
That's fun, but he actuallywanted more time for golf.
So it's the same motivation.
He wanted more afternoonleisure hours.
(06:13):
So he had proposed this at onepoint.
Again, it wasn't adopted, butthe golf industry, which now
brings in about $70 billionannually in the US has lobbied
for daylight savings times.
Expansion in multipleiterations happened in the 80s
(06:35):
and in 2005.
So there have been variousgroups.
The golf industry has been bigin lobbying to expand daylight
savings time.
It's also, I guess,coincidental or maybe not, it's
up to you but the first twostates to pass measures to
explore permanent daylightsavings times were Florida and
(06:57):
California.
There's also happened to be thetwo states with the most golf
jobs, so again, could be purecoincidence.
Also, it wouldn't be shockingjust to people that live in the
sunny states like more sunshine.
There may not be a nefariousconspiracy there, but it is
funny that those were the firsttwo.
Again, daylight savings firstfound practical application
(07:20):
during World War I.
We actually didn't pioneer that, Germany did, and then
everybody who was fightingagainst Germany had to do it to
also conserve coal.
So this was the real reasonthat we got into daylight
savings.
Postwar, a lot of countriesactually went back to know
(07:42):
daylight savings, and now thisis when the lobbying, if you
will, starts kicking.
There was also again concernswith energy in the 1970s, when
oil shortages started to come up.
So the idea of shiftingdaylight hours to conserve
energy was discussed.
We'll, I guess get into thisdeeper later, so I won't touch
(08:05):
it too much now.
But that link is looking lessand less solid.
But as far as decreasing yourenergy consumption when you
switch, that's something that isprobably less relevant in the
modern world for a lot ofreasons.
But bottom line, we're still onthe history Daylight savings
time had not been adoptedglobally at this point.
(08:28):
So there again was a big pushfrom lobbying groups and most of
them were going to come fromnot only golf, which we already
mentioned, anything that wasassociated with leisure
activities, retail.
The same argument was therethat if people had sunshine
hours after they were done withwork, they would have more time
(08:50):
for that.
You don't think of this as likea big lobby group, but one of
the people that lobbied for it,I believe, was the Clorox
Corporation.
I think one of theirsubsidiaries owned some charcoal
briquettes and they had donethe math and estimated that it
would make them another $100million.
Anyway, I don't think it's likebig charcoal that pushed it.
(09:13):
There are a lot of economicinterests that were lobbying to
have some daylight hours afterwork.
That is what has created thispolicy.
That was the point of all that,not to slam a bunch of
lobbyists and, frankly, maybeit's not the worst idea that
people have some daylight hoursafter work.
(09:34):
Yeah, I'm not trying to castany or get any tinfoil hats out
for this section, just paintingout who and what shaped the
policy that we actually have.
And again, my main objective itwasn't farmers.
Farmers have been blamed forthis forever, and at every
(09:58):
iteration of lobbying that wasactually one of the groups that
was going against it, believe itor not, but anyway, I've been
railing against this for years.
I became aware of some of thenegative health impacts
associated with clock shifting.
I thought it was a stupidrelative practice anyway, and so
(10:20):
for me it's been nice to seethat there is actually rising
awareness, shall we say, or atleast a rising public
dissatisfaction with clockshifting.
So public opinion has reallyshifted my way.
It was kind of just once aquiet issue that people didn't
really think about.
It's actually given way topretty vocal discontent from a
(10:45):
lot of different people.
But yeah, well, one importantscientist, politicians,
constituents there isn't reallyany meaningful pushback right
now on not switching our clocks.
What's left to sort out iswhat's the best schedule for us
(11:07):
to be on, but it's kind of niceto know that actually in, I
think, what are objectivelyreally divisive times that
actually so.
Almost every state has at leastconsidered ending daylight
saving time, and in a 2021 pollby YouGov, it's about 62% of
(11:32):
Americans would prefereliminating the need to change
their clocks twice a year.
That's the way they phrased thequestion.
Of that group, 50% say theywould prefer to keep daylight
savings time permanent and 31%are saying that they would
prefer to keep standard timepermanent.
(11:54):
Again, I think what has driventhe awareness and
dissatisfaction?
Well, the dissatisfaction thatwas already baked into it.
Anybody who's ever had to rushto work or late for school we've
all had our bad days because ofclocks, and so, yeah, the
(12:17):
dissatisfaction was always there.
But I think there has beenrising awareness one about the
benefits of sleep as it pertainsto health broadly, and then,
specifically, the negativeeffects of clock shifting.
In 2020, jama Neurologyobviously published a study that
(12:38):
outlined a lot of the negativeimpacts, including less sleep,
increases of stroke, increasedheart attack, decreased sense of
well-being, and there's evenmixed studies on traffic
accidents on the days that weshift clocks.
So I do think that risingawareness of this and just the
fact that shifting clocks isstupid it is a negative on
(13:01):
everybody's lives, that this issomething that we are
surprisingly united on, even inthese days of a sharp division.
If you will but I am a guy witha podcast so I shouldn't really
present unity let's actuallynow dive into the two camps.
(13:22):
Let's make this a tribal issue,let's make it a binary.
And yeah, so briefly mentioned,but it is roughly 50% who say
they would prefer to keeppermanent daylight savings time,
31% saying that they would haveto keep it on standard time.
Let's first just go camp bycamp and explore the arguments
(13:45):
of each and also who is backingeach group, and obviously, I
imagine, those of us justlistening and even me talking
about it.
I imagine we all have our ownlifestyles, personal preferences
, work schedules, school thingsthat are obviously going to play
(14:06):
into this.
But yeah, I just want to breakdown which groups.
There's going to be a lot oflobbying groups on both ends of
this and what their argumentsare, and I'm sure we're all
going to have our ownpreferences that are separate
and apart from any of this stuff.
So add this in as you continuethinking about this.
(14:28):
So, anyway, let's say that youare for daylight savings time,
that we should go permanent onthat.
So joining this group is goingto be almost all the retailers
convenience stores, people whosell outdoor products, barbecue
(14:51):
equipment, the golf industrythat we already mentioned,
amusement parks this is actuallywhere I would say the bulk of
the corporate lobbying is beingdone.
This has the backing of mostchambers of commerce and I think
this is, in general, the morepopular opinion.
(15:12):
A couple explanations.
One I think through all of theyears of clock shifting, we
probably associate the shift todaylight savings time better the
spring forward than the fallback.
That's all I have to say.
You know I don't agree with theuse of language here, but
oftentimes in fall people saythey lost an hour of sleep or
they gained an hour of sleep.
(15:32):
I tend to question their timemanagement, but that that is
something that's commonly said.
So I just think that there is apositive association with
spring forward and daylightsavings, a negative association
with fallback or Standard time,just because when people make
those respective clock shiftshow it feels when they're doing
(15:57):
it.
Similarly, I would say thatthere's probably just going to
be a natural positiveAssociation with daylight
savings time because thosethat's the summer, sunny, fun
months.
So you know just for years ofassociating the daylight savings
time with summer and Standardtime with winter.
(16:20):
I just think there is, you know, going to be a natural
psychological advantage fordaylight savings time.
When we just begin to thinkabout this.
There is currently a bipartisanbill that I Think it's been put
forth by Marco Rubio in thehouse does a backing from both
(16:41):
sides of the aisle and it isactually pushing for permanent
daylight savings.
I will say the evidence citedin the bill.
It does cherry pick theevidence a little bit because
the argument being made in thebill is obviously not daylight
savings time versus Shifting ourclocks twice a year.
(17:05):
It is daylight savings timeversus standard time.
The issue is the the studiescited are all comparing the
impact of daylight savings timeto clock shifting.
So all of the evidence thatthat cited is valid and would
support Switching to daylightsavings time only, but it would
also support switching tostandard time only.
(17:27):
So what?
One of the things that's goingto be challenging With the data
that we have is we just don'tactually have studies to compare
, you know, long runs of beingon standard time versus long
runs on daylight savings time.
All of the studies we have, youknow, deal with people shifting
their clocks twice a year.
(17:49):
So we know a lot about thenegative health impacts of that.
We don't know as much directcomparison between daylight
savings time and standard time.
So in in the bill beingadvanced, they the argument is
that daylight savings time mightbe Healthier than standard time
(18:11):
, and that's actually not wherethe scientists are on this.
So I do think that the the billthat's being events probably
reflects more the lobbyinggroups and again, probably just
positive connotations.
Like I said, I don't think thisis actually, again, this is a
popular issue with people, soyou know, supporting both sides.
So I don't think we have to,you know, rush to conspiracy,
(18:34):
but but there are obviously Verybig lobbying groups that
mentioned the US Chamber ofCommerce.
There Also, in the past wealready have we have seen
significant lobby efforts toextend daylight savings time.
You know, as we mentioned in thehistory After the world wars we
(18:55):
didn't just go to daylightsavings time, we rolled it back.
And then there was.
It was like the petroleumindustry had, you know, noticed
that consumer spending they were.
They were the first to noticeit and I think as early as like
1930.
So a lot of business interestshave been lobbying for daylight
hours after work for a very longtime.
(19:17):
There have already been twosuccessful extensions of
daylight savings time once in itwas 86 that extended it for an
hour, and then in 05 theyextended it another two hours.
So yeah, there actually hasbeen consistent lobbying from,
(19:40):
namely, retail and commerce onthe other side, if you will, of
this debate is actually most ofthe science and Researchers.
But there's also some lobbyinggoing on over there too.
Ski resorts, believe it or not,even though you would think that
(20:02):
the daylight hours would helpthem.
Colorado is actually one of theonly states that hasn't enacted
a permanent daylight savingstimes bill, and that is Largely
due to the ski industry.
For them, you know, people aregonna leave Regardless of the
daylight.
It's more about beating traffic.
(20:22):
At least that's what theirresearch shows.
So extending the daylight Intothe the later hours of the day
doesn't up the ski industry.
So Colorado has been one statethat hasn't done this.
Most schools also favor thisthere.
There's an idea there that it'ssafer.
You don't want kids coming toschool In dark or in darkness.
(20:47):
But this one I don't know ifthere's actually a strong link
there, to be honest, becauseyou're gonna catch it on one end
or the other.
You know, either coming orgoing from school, I mean.
So you, you just can't shield,you know, people from the dark.
I actually think there's.
There's a little bit of a mixedbag on safety With cars when we
(21:10):
get into standard time,although that was shown in the
studies.
We'll get into this later, Idon't want to kill it now.
There's some confounding factorsthat point to something that's
little bit more convincing thanWhether you're on daylight
savings or standard time.
Another group, though, that Iwould say is supporting standard
time is going to be TV networks, for the opposite reason as all
(21:33):
your Retailers and everybodythere is that they would prefer
people actually be at homeduring those hours watching
must-see TV.
So you know, we do have a big,powerful and and and wealthy you
know group going against it.
Obviously farmers, believe ornot.
Farmers lobbied against bothextensions and they lobbied
(21:57):
against switching back after thewars.
So, even though people thinkfarmers invented daylight
savings time, they are one ofthe strongest groups actually
against going to a daylightsavings time permanently.
Let's see yeah, did we get themall?
Yes, scientists, ski resorts,schools, yeah, tv.
(22:18):
So that's that pretty muchrounds out the camp of who is in
favor of Going to standard timerather than daylight savings
time permanently.
Yeah, obviously, the the groupof people that I found the most
interesting in this group is, ofcourse, the scientists.
That's that's the people whoseopinions I looked at the most,
(22:38):
and and Scientists, you know,generally advocate for permanent
standard time, or sometimescalled natural time, because it
better aligns with people'sschedules with the Sun.
People who study the issue arepretty much in agreement.
There was a 2022 AmericanMedical Association that well,
(23:02):
in 2022, rather, they theycalled for the end of daylight
savings time, saying that it canactually take months for the
human body to adjust to a newsleep cycle.
If you know, we were waiting,which I do.
I wait the scientist's opinionsjust a little bit higher than
(23:23):
the interest groups, and again,I'm hesitating because I don't
want to cover ground that we'vealready touched on.
We did talk in a previousepisode a lot about how to sink
your body to circadian rhythm.
I think the short way is thatgetting exposure to light in the
morning can start to stimulatea number of things, but namely
(23:46):
production of melatonin.
When you have the access tolight early in the day, it is
then going to.
There is a cascade of effectsthat are going to stem from that
and whole host that we don'twant to touch here.
Go right up the circadianrhythms again if you want to get
to all that today.
(24:07):
But yes, just from thestandpoint of that, there are so
many other considerations thatplay in, obviously what time
you're going to work, what timeyou're going to school.
But if we're looking at it fromthe stance of optimal health,
it is pretty clear that weshould probably favor the
standard time and even thoughthat doesn't, you know, maybe
coordinate with lifestyle oreconomy.
(24:30):
This well, even there, I knowI'll play devil's advocate
because that's one of the big.
You know we can't do thisbecause the economy.
But if people are lessproductive, what do you care?
If you're getting a coupleextra hours and you guys feel
good when you leave work, butthe work you did all day was
below the capacity that youcould have done if you arrested.
Your creative energies couldhave just been better.
(24:51):
So again, I actually think thatthe economy argument is a
little bit of a cop out, becauseI think that we could, you know
, also glean that if people were, people might be, if you were
sick days, people might workbetter, productivity could
increase, et cetera.
But actually now that's justall conjecture.
(25:13):
Anyway, let's actually stick itto the science.
That's getting into my opinion.
Yeah, the you know one more,the nonprofit organization Save
Standard Time.
Its endorsements are from 30sleep science and medical
organizations American Academyof Sleep Medicine, American
Medical Association.
We mentioned American Academyof Neurology the list of
(25:38):
organizations and scientiststhat are backing Standard Time.
Again, when we look at theincentives, it really does
appear that they are mostlyreacting out of the idea that it
is better for people's health,quite frankly.
So yeah, I already started tojump into it, so now I
(25:59):
officially, in my outline, amallowed to do this.
Simon says what do I say?
I was already kind of leadingthere, but I actually I lean
with the scientists on this one.
I've actually gotten a littlebit of flak talking about this
in the past.
So I want to qualify what I'mabout to say, because I really
(26:21):
do get it that not everybody isat liberty to alter some aspects
of their schedule.
So if you're working a nightshift, obviously I think that
businesses and organizationsshould figure out ways to make
sure, in light of everything weknow about circadian rhythms,
light levels and all that, thatwe could accommodate for things
that work.
(26:42):
But there are a lot of peoplenot talking to night shift
workers.
I'm not talking to people thathave to be at work at a specific
time, but there are tons ofpeople who the reason that they
aren't shifting their scheduleisn't that it isn't fungible.
A lot of people are staying upon their screens at night.
(27:04):
So for that population there'sa lot of people who have a lot
of room to make some changes.
All of us, within our capacity,should set our schedule up as
much as we can to the naturalcircadian rhythms, not because I
told you to, but because you'regoing to get more out of your
(27:27):
own days by not fighting yourbiology, by just rolling with it
.
There's obvious limitationswith work and with the structure
of the day that I'm not goingto be able to conquer in one
episode.
But yeah, I just don't want tobe accused of making judgments
about people's lives orinability to change sleep
(27:48):
schedules based on thoseexternal factors.
I know those exist.
Within reason and within yourability, you're going to want to
make shifts to accommodatecircadian rhythm.
Anyway, disclaimer out of theway just because I've already
dealt with those comments in thepast.
I do.
I favor the scientists.
I think we should actuallystick with standard time when we
(28:11):
finally decide to pick a timeand stick with it.
That being said, though, I'mnot really that committed.
I'm way more committed to usnot changing our clocks than me
getting my way on standard time.
I think the case issignificantly better for
(28:32):
standard time, but I think thecase against switching clocks is
even stronger that, even if wedecided on daylight savings time
, I'm not going to be mad.
The other reason, though, thatI'm not going to be mad is that
it's also, just frankly, notgoing to solve all of our issues
(28:56):
with sleep and health.
I alluded to some of that, buta lot of when we really get at
why do people?
This is one that actuallybrings out some pretty strong
opinions.
I think the reason is that it'sso close and fundamental to how
we have to live our lives andhow we have to adapt our lives
(29:17):
into, quite frankly, anindustrial society.
I wish I could have come upwith a better word, because,
with my Montana roots, now thatmakes me sound like the
Unibomber, but no, I thinkthat's where, when we're trying
to figure out how to solve ourtime problem, that's what we're
really getting at is how do wesynchronize and arrive?
(29:39):
How do we have our businessesfunction, schools function, in
light of what we know about ourhealth and all that to get to?
There are way more factors thatplay into this than just
daylight savings and standardtime even, and we're actually
still sticking in the domain oftime.
I'm not even going to unpackany other confounding factors,
(30:04):
at least today, but no, evenwhen we're just sticking in time
, there's also significantdifference in time zones, and
this is why we actually kind ofhave to pause on what we're
seeing with the trafficaccidents, because when we
really hone in and start toisolate what is going on,
something that has a muchstronger case right now is there
(30:28):
are regions that are actuallyjumping ahead.
So time zones.
Obviously, if you're in theeastern part of a time zone
versus the western time, thedifference in the sun's position
on what the clock says can beas much as an hour difference
between the eastern and westernedge.
(30:49):
So in the edges of time zones,so they call these its eccentric
time localities, so these ETLregions, they're basically on
the borders of time zones.
Residents of these areas suffersignificantly higher fatality
(31:13):
rates in car accidents thananywhere else in the time zone.
So I mention that because whenwe do studies comparing, or
rather looking at trafficaccidents with clock shifting,
it's going to be tough to teaseout whether that's not occurring
.
Or say it another way, that maynot be happening, then it may
(31:37):
not be evenly distributedthroughout time zones.
It looks that they are moresignificant in certain areas,
these ETLs, eccentric timelocalities.
So if you are in the middle ofa time zone, the chance that any
one of these clock shifts is asinfluential to you as somebody
(31:58):
living on the edge of a timezone, it does look that the
effects are much more pronouncedin these regions that are close
to the borders.
So, obviously, it doesn'treally matter which schedule you
choose daylight savings time orstandard time if you are living
(32:20):
in an ETL, those zones,regardless of schedule, are
going to have just a little bitmore time distortion for people
who live there.
And again, this just unpacks anissue that I'm actually not even
ready to speak on.
But now we have to get intobasically redrawing time zones,
(32:43):
which I don't know enough about.
I know they're roughly equateto latitude and that's as far as
I'm going to even attempt to goon that one.
But no, I just wanted tointroduce this because this is a
significant confounding factor.
When we start to talk about thenegative effects that we have
noticed in clock shifting, isit's worth mentioning that all
(33:05):
of those impacts are far morepronounced in our eccentric time
localities, and that's notreally something that we can
address with shifting our clocks.
Whichever one you choose,that's still going to be a
problem.
Another massive confoundingfactor that I see in all of this
(33:25):
now is that it's, frankly,artificial light, and I was
alluding to this, but the vastmajority of people, their issue
with sleep and with what's goingon actually isn't the clock
schedule, it's just that theystay up too late looking at
screens and I know there's goingto be a lot of exceptions, but
(33:49):
that's talking about a countryof 300 million and, speaking to
averages, that's the most commonproblem and that's the most
common sleep issue.
So, yeah, when we are focusingon issues like daylight savings,
time time zones, all of that,it can get a little bit
disconnected from the modernlifestyle, because there are
(34:13):
significant people who are notbeing driven by the sun and the
larger issue is actually howmuch artificial light is being
exposed to during the day andthe impacts of that, and
obviously, with the rise of bluelight, glasses, stuff like that
.
People know the impact, butblue light is known to have one
(34:37):
of the most powerfullydisruptive impacts to circadian
rhythms and most people areconsuming it in pretty high
doses throughout the day.
Focusing on daylight savings orstandard time as it pertains to
improving our health, I do wantto circle back to this because
(34:58):
I've really tried to keepeverything I talk about here at
least motivated in the spirit.
We're a little bit majoring inthe miners today.
You know, parsing hairs overwhich time schedule is different
between daylight savings andstandard time.
The big rocks here are, youknow, making sure that you're
(35:19):
getting exposed to the sun earlyin the day, moving around
sufficiently removing the bluelight, getting a good night's
sleep those are the big rocks.
So, again, when we're talkingabout the health impacts that
we're seeing, those, I think,would still be the best first
(35:39):
amendments.
But, you know, just because thereality is we all have to fit
our lives into these schedules.
I still think the topic is worthdiscussing, but I don't want to
bury the lead with diving intothe minutiae of what's better
between daylight savings andstandard time when, you know, I
(36:00):
think most people are juststaying up too late with Netflix
, to be honest.
So, yeah, just to make surethat we're not, with this focus,
that we're not overlookingsurrounding factors and arguably
, frankly, larger factors, if wecould align our sleep and work
(36:23):
schedules with the light that'savailable, it would not only be
better for us, because we, youknow, use electricity and
devices, but it would be betterfor the planet.
So it's, these are questionsthat we do need to ask and,
admittedly, I don't have theanswers.
(36:44):
That was kind of why I doveinto this topic.
So, yeah, that's.
I'm not going to present youguys today with any final
thoughts, because I actuallygenuinely think this is an open
debate.
And, yeah, although I havelobbied against shifting clocks
(37:07):
twice a year for a long time,very passionately, I like the
place we're at, because, whetherwe end up with standard time or
daylight savings, I'll wineither way.
Before we go, though, I'm goingto keep this one short today,
but let's just sum it up realquick.
So, yeah, you know, obviously,today we got through the real
(37:30):
story, or the real history, ifyou will, of daylight savings
time.
It wasn't created by farmers.
Farmers have actually been oneof the groups lobbying against
it for the longest.
There is a rising awareness ofthe negative health impacts.
Now, before many states, we arepresented the choice of either
(37:55):
ending or when we end, shiftingclocks twice a year.
We can either shift over todaylight savings time
permanently or standard timepermanently.
The groups behind that, inshort, think the Chamber of
Commerce, think retail outdoorsfor your daylight savings time,
and behind standard time, you'vegot scientists, schools and
(38:19):
possibly television.
Wherever you sit, on thedaylight savings time or
standard time debate, maybe youdidn't even know it existed, but
yeah, wherever you sit, Iactually think there are valid
points on either end.
That range from economicimpacts, health impacts.
(38:40):
The case for health, frankly,is much stronger on the side of
standard time.
I think it's a bit of a mixedbag when we're talking the
economy.
So, yeah, I guess the onepersonal opinion that I would be
willing to share is that I dothink that we should lead with
health as we consider whatchanges that we are going to
(39:05):
make today.
In a way, the conflict overdaylight savings time versus
standard time, at least thepublic debate of it, could just
be another one of those ofdifferent lobbying groups
putting out their differentmessages.
So I do think that the numberone thing that we should be
listening to.
(39:25):
I feel like I'm in the sameboat, but we should be really
listening to the scientists andwhat they are saying about our
health.
There is one other piece, and Iguess this is going to be just
my little touch on philosophytoday, but I have talked about
this for years, so admittedly, Ido think there is just frankly,
(39:49):
something awry in the way wemark and think about time.
This issue certainly brings itup, but one of the things I
always notice, again when peopletalk about shifting the clock,
is that when we go to daylightsavings time, they'll say that
it adds an hour of daylightAgain, maybe I'm just reading
(40:14):
too deeply into it, but wheneverpeople say that, it just
indicates to me a deepmisunderstanding of time's
nature.
Regardless of how you labeltime or what you call it, it
doesn't actually alter theamount of daylight that we get.
Obviously, the earth's tilt andthe seasons take care of all
(40:34):
that.
So shifting our clocks justchanges what we call certain
hours.
It doesn't alter the amount ofdaylight.
So, yeah, I don't have apassionate side actually to take
on this.
There's the obvious People havework schedules and they have
(40:55):
the patterns and things thatthey've gotten used to.
So I can imagine a lot ofpeople lobbying for what they've
gotten used to, but I'veactually experienced in my own
lifetime that actually alteringa sleep schedule is a lot more
malleable, I think, than mostpeople think.
You probably don't get theopportunity because work, school
(41:18):
life, other reasons but I haveactually experienced and
flourished on more than onedifferent sleep schedule in my
lifetime and I've had to alterit many times.
So I also don't think that thisis something that we need to
think in terms of cookie cutteror top down solutions, if you
(41:41):
will.
There's like a generalprinciple that we really know
works, and that's that youreally should get the morning
light that's going to cue yourbody to ramp up cortisol.
That wakes you up, you feelawake, you feel alert and then,
while that's getting ramped up,you're also triggering your
melatonin production and if thatdoesn't happen, you're not
(42:05):
going to fall asleep well atnight.
So yeah, just as much as anybodycan, they should synchronize to
the solar clock and alsorecognize that, whatever we call
the time, it's a bit relative.
It doesn't really matter, aslong as people are showing up on
time.
And yeah, because I just eventhink about this, when you know
(42:29):
somebody is lobbying on one end,vociferously believing that if
they don't get this, you knowclock time that their business
is going to die.
I don't even know if that'sgoing to happen.
I think people might justadjust and you know, if the time
that we used to do somethingwas called five o'clock but now
it's called four o'clock, Idon't know if that really
(42:50):
matters and I think people areintelligent enough to make those
shifts all on their own.
So I do think some of thecorporate lobbying on this may
just be much ado about nothing.
I think they'll be fine eitherway.
Winter days are short, summerdays are long.
It doesn't really matter whatyou call the time.
(43:13):
There's nothing you can doabout that.
So, yeah, anyway, that's justmy and I don't have a solution.
But I think, as we'reconsidering this, that we should
be leading with health.
I guess some of the changesthat you know people could
consider would be, you know,flexible start times for work
and school.
Some of that is probablyalready going on with work ever
(43:36):
since the pandemic, quitefrankly.
So so maybe the work world cancan lead with some flexible
start schedules, stuff like that.
But yeah, anyway, I don'treally feel like I have a strong
opinion or a horse in the race,necessarily, but this is an
issue that I have foundinteresting for quite a long
(43:56):
time and again, it's not oftenor at least it feels it doesn't
feel like I get to highlight anissue that I feel like there has
actually been genuine progressand people agreeing on.
So, before I finish, I actuallywant to encourage you guys to,
to, you know, reflect on how youguys feel about daylight
(44:18):
savings and standard time.
Which schedule do you prefer?
Think about some of thosedifficult questions Like how
could we restructure work, howcould we restructure school and
our society at large?
You know, I honestly think thatyou know, because, because I
did survey a lot of the answersand why I'm not really willing
(44:39):
to, you know, go hard on any ofthem, is that I don't think
there are a lot of good answersbeing out there.
So, anyway, this is one that Iwant to encourage my mind,
muscle, community to reflect on.
Think how you're thinking thatthis is actually still being
written as we speak and, yeah,I'm not sure we actually have
gotten to the best answer yet.
(45:00):
So, anyway, guys, if you foundthis one interesting, make sure
to share it.
If you've ever, like me, gripedany of your friends about clock
shifting or just had a bad day,you know, flipping your clocks
around.
Share this with somebody youknow who had the same experience
, and maybe they'll getsomething out of it too.
Remember, guys, mind and muscleare inseparably intertwined.
(45:22):
There are no gains withoutbrains.
Keep lifting and learning.
I'll do the same.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com