July 11, 2024 • 45 mins
Ever wondered how GLP drugs like Ozempic are changing not just waistlines but the entire food industry? Tune into our latest episode of the Mind Muscle Podcast where we promise you'll learn how these medications are influencing consumer habits and even the market performance of companies like Dannon. We tackle the common misconception that muscle loss during weight loss is unique to GLP drug users, explaining it's a consequence of any caloric deficit. Stay intrigued as we explore how food makers might pivot to meet these evolving demands by boosting the protein and nutrient content in their offerings.
Is raw milk really the magic elixir it's often touted to be? We scrutinize the claims of raw milk enthusiasts who swear by its benefits for weight loss, gut health, and lactose intolerance. In this episode, we highlight the cultural trends among its supporters, and question the “natural-is-always-better” mindset prevalent among urban influencers. Shifting gears, we bring a scientific perspective into the conversation, emphasizing the critical role of pasteurization in eradicating harmful bacteria and ensuring food safety, particularly in underserved areas. This balanced discussion aims to debunk myths while providing insights into the different types of milk within varied social and economic contexts.
What if everything you thought about health debates and sensationalized news was missing the point? We highlight the importance of sticking to fundamental habits like eating minimally processed foods and getting enough sleep amidst media-driven hysteria over hyperinflation, bank collapses, and conflicts. Plus, we dive into an eye-opening study on Spain's high life expectancy, despite high rates of alcohol, tobacco, and cocaine use, hinting at cultural or lifestyle factors that might be at play. Concluding on an optimistic note, we discuss the simple yet impactful actions that can improve both our communities and personal longevity, reinforcing that mental and physical growth are interconnected. Keep lifting, learning, and growing with us on this enlightening journey.
Producer: Thor Benander
Editor: Luke Morey
Intro Theme: Ajax Benander
Intro: Timothy Durant
For more, visit Simon at The Antagonist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon DeVere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place where we study thehistory, science and philosophy
behind everything in health andfitness today.
Study the history, science andphilosophy behind everything in
(00:26):
health and fitness today.
I'm Simon DeVere, and there'snothing new except all that has
been forgotten.
All right, so you should well,if you listened to last episode,
you know one of the things thatwe're going to talk about today
meant to get to it last time.
I want to talk about theculture war coming for milk.
After I get through my thoughtson just the latest thing that's
(00:50):
going on, we'll just kind ofsum up milk in general.
This can kind of be a lotsimpler than I think the way
it's presented, but I also wantto touch base on some of the
changing trends that are goingon with food choices from
ozempic just a topic we'vealready been discussing a fair
bit here.
And then actually, I want tofinish up actually on some tips
(01:11):
for longevity, focusing on, Iguess, what we can maybe call
the spanish paradox no one'scalling it that yet, but, um, we
have some interesting data thatmaybe is revealing some keys
for longevity that you mightfind interesting.
So as long as I don't over talkthe other things, I came here
(01:32):
for that we will get to that onelast today.
But confession right up front Iam exhausted through my
daughter's birthday party thisweekend.
So shout out to any parents whoknow what that's like First man
on the beach, last one to leavea lot of setup, a lot of
teardown, got home to a lot ofassembly, so not going to lie,
(01:55):
being in this nice dark roomwhere it's quiet, kind of feel
like I should go to sleep rightnow.
If I was a listener of thispodcast, that's probably what I
would do for the sake of myhealth.
But no, anyway, I do have sometopics that I especially the
culture war coming from milkI've been chomping at the bit to
(02:16):
get at this one and at leastget my opinion out there.
So yeah, I do want to jump in.
But yeah, even though that'sthe one I'm really excited to
talk about today, I do want tojump in.
But yeah, even though that'sthe one I'm really excited to
talk about today, I do want toupdate just a trend or a story
that we've already been talkingabout here and that is Ozempic.
So obviously you'll rememberwhen we were talking about this
(02:37):
in the business world, a lot ofthe food brands were getting
concerned that consumers wouldbe changing habits if they were
using well, not only Ozempic butany of the GLP drugs.
There are going to be more andmore of those coming online.
So, yeah, I should probablyjust call them GLP drugs at this
point, not the brand nameOzempic At this point.
(03:00):
30 million Americans have takensome form of the new weight loss
drugs and they again rememberhow these work.
They're essentially reducingcravings.
Some of the weight loss drugsin the past have tried to alter
your metabolism and do otherthings.
These are actually working onspecific regions in the brain
(03:22):
that decrease your cravings.
And then again, interesting,not only for food some people
are having success beating otheraddictions smoking, drugs,
things of that nature.
But anyway, 30 millionAmericans have taken some form
of these drugs and billions ofdollars have been wiped out of
(03:43):
the market caps of foodcompanies, namely Nestle.
Nestle's taken about a threeand a half percent hit.
They are ascribing it to thechanging habits coming from
their own earnings calls andstatements.
But interesting to me wasactually not.
(04:05):
Everybody has seen a downtrendwith the rise of these drugs,
and so actually yogurt has beenone of the few beneficiaries.
So Dannon has actually seenincreased demand to the shifting
market trends.
They didn't specifically marketthemselves to GLP users, but
(04:27):
they are getting the benefit ofthe trend.
So again, people are.
This is reducing their cravings.
When you are on a GLP drug, itis important that you get things
like protein and nutrients ingood quantities, with relatively
low calories, because you'renot going to be very hungry and
your appetite just isn't goingto go and drive you to get that
(04:50):
nutrition the way you wouldprobably have been used to.
So, also kind of touching up onone of the things we already
talked about, one of the bigissues people are citing with
the use of these drugs is muscleloss.
We talked about that in detail.
I actually think that's peoplekind of overreacting.
There's going to be muscle lossevery time you get into a
(05:12):
caloric deficit, so that's notsurprising.
The studies that we have showvery, very similar rates of
muscle loss, whether usingOzempic, a GLP drug rather, or
just a regular caloric deficit.
So anyway, it's always aproblem that you're going to
lose muscle when you are in acaloric deficit.
(05:32):
So it's actually a good, solidchoice that consumers are making
.
We can kind of give peoplebecause I know I talk a lot of
crap about the stupid choices wemake.
This is actually people makingthe right choice and making a
good reaction.
But the flip side and thebusiness coverage of the sector
is kind of already reflectingthis is that food makers are
(05:54):
going to start changing some ofthe options that they are
offering, the big trends thatthey are going to be pushing out
in their ultra processedversions of you know, good foods
.
They're probably going to pushthe protein counts, they're
probably going to pump thenutrient quantities and they're
probably going to reduce theportions.
(06:15):
Jaded part of me thinks that'sgoing to just kind of increase
profit margins, since they'll beable to downsize, probably
charge the same price or evenmore if it has a cool new
rebrand on it.
But again, jaded part of me,this is kind of new for them to
actually be behind the trend.
The GLP drugs really did seemto catch them unprepared.
(06:37):
Normally they pay for a slew ofstudies, highlight the benefits
of some reductive thing, andthen the products are already
ready to go by the time you'rereading about that thing in the
papers they paid to put it outin.
But yeah, so they're a littlebit behind the eight ball on
this one, but what you areprobably going to see is a new
(06:57):
generation of ultra processedfoods that are going to appeal
to GLP users specifically, butpeople just use living a healthy
lifestyle broadly.
So my take on all this is youknow, stick to yogurt.
What's up, danon?
Do you guys ever want to?
(07:17):
You know, shout out.
My brand is actually Faye.
It's that Greek yogurt I like,that they have a lot of protein
and that it tells you how topronounce it on the bottle, but
also that that actually mostly,mostly for the protein.
But anyway, yogurt guys, firstone's free.
If you guys want me to keepplugging it, um, you're going to
have to pay me.
Uh yeah, but obviously I'm abroken record on this and I know
(07:41):
it.
But stick to your minimallyprocessed foods.
There's really no reason why, ifyou are calorically restricting
, using a GLP drug or not, whyyou should be favoring ultra
processed foods.
I know that they're not out yet, but there's going to be just a
whole new slew of products thatare going to be engineered for
(08:06):
people with these concerns topurchase.
So, same rules.
I would say stick to theperimeter of the grocery store.
That's where you're going tofind all the food.
Maybe I'm being a little bitjaded.
I'm being a little bit jaded.
There could be a net positivethat if these ultra-processed
food makers are moving away fromthe techniques that they have
(08:29):
been using to willfully causepeople to overeat, yeah, that
would be good.
But clearly you can probablyhear the skepticism.
I'm not going to hold my breaththat they're still going to
need to design and engineerproducts so that they can
continue to grow their earnings.
That's what's expected of them,and so I would expect nothing
(08:51):
less.
But I guess I can also justkeep arguing against it, because
even if they did, they stoppedusing these techniques to
engineer foods to be overeaten.
The truth is, even if thenutrient quantities, say,
matched a minimally processedfood source, they can match the
(09:12):
amounts of nutrients, but theystill can't match the context of
the food.
So if you're just eatingminimally processed foods,
you're still going to be waymore likely to absorb the
nutrients that are in the foodsyou know.
Obviously you just if you can'treplicate the context, we can't
make sure that all those goodthings are bioavailable and in
the position to be absorbed whenyou eat them.
(09:33):
So even if there was atheoretical ultra processed food
that matched an apple, on allthe measurable properties of the
apple, these reductiveproperties that we would talk
about how many calories, howmany vitamins, all the nutrients
.
You're still going to miss someof the context.
(09:53):
And so again and I've talkedabout this this is not like a
purity based thing.
We're not talking 100%.
I live in the real world.
Sometimes these things can makeyour life easier.
Sometimes you're busy or tired,I know what that's about.
But these things can make yourlife easier.
Sometimes you're busy or tired,I know what that's about.
But you're still going to aimto keep this to roughly 80% of
the time minimally processedfoods, and outside of that
(10:15):
you're going to be all right Ifwe have a little bit of
tolerance.
Human beings are fortunatelyvery malleable, flexible and we
can seek out novel things.
So, yeah, if, if 80 of the time, you've got the minimally
processed food, it's really notgoing to be a big deal.
If you've got one or two thingshere and there, no point to be,
uh, you know, pushing any sortof purity based.
(10:35):
But again, call, call meskeptical, but I think we are
going to see sort of the latestiteration of nutritionism, this
idea that we've talked about afair bit here, but that the
value of a food can becommunicated in the sum total of
the reductive nutrients,vitamins, that we can explain it
(10:57):
that way, that we can engineerfood products that way.
Again, I am more in that campof a more holistic approach,
which should raise red flagssince the alternative new age
medicine.
People say that a lot, but no,what we just mean with holistic
is just considering the entirecontext of the food, the soil
(11:20):
that it comes from, all of thosethings.
That's going to be a lot moreeffective actually at getting
you high quality foods than thantaking the reductive approach
Just on.
On balance, it's a much betterheuristic get you there a lot
more reliably.
Anyway, I'm double talking now,so I just want to go ahead and
move on before we justcompletely beat that dead.
(11:42):
Last week I never did get totalk about the culture war
moving to milk, and so again Iwas lucky just to be in Los
Angeles.
Well, just not that lucky, butlucky in a sense to talk about
this.
We had a natural grocery storedown in Venice Rossum it was
(12:05):
raided over a decade ago sellingraw milk.
So now this is kind of, youknow, recirculated and we're
back to the raw milk thing now.
And but this time, you know,culture was obviously always
there to an extent, but theculture was much more developed
(12:26):
now.
So now that it's kicking backthrough this time, you know it's
, I guess I'll just say,garnering a little bit more
attention, and I think a lot ofpeople are going to be coming
into this with motivatedreasoning because it is aligning
itself with the culture war.
So I want to take just a lessemotional and more of a
(12:47):
science-based approach on whatthe value, or lack thereof, may
be with raw milk versuspasteurized milk, and then we'll
even jump later into oat milkand milk replacements.
Just kind of try to sum up,we'll try to make this one
actually just kind of astandalone on everything you
need to know about milk.
(13:08):
Admittedly, that's just a funnyone to me and I didn't even
prep this part.
But you go into the milk aislenow and you look around and just
the number of options that thatis literally when I start to
feel like an old man and likeget off my lawn is what do we
need with all of this?
Um, but anyway, what?
What do the proponents say?
Let's, let's at least considertheir arguments, because this
(13:29):
could just be an old man takewith, with me not approving of
all of these milk varieties.
So first we'll talk about rawmilk, the proponents of raw milk
.
Sorry, one more little bit ofeditorializing.
Before I say what they say, canwe just say who they are?
Because this is kind of theculture war component.
(13:49):
What I'm seeing right now withthe raw milk proponents is to me
they are kind of amanifestation of horseshoe
theory.
These are popular influencers,but it's that strange space
online where goop and q anon,you know, overlap, and a lot of
their followers, I don't think,know that they overlap because
(14:11):
they would probably view eachother, uh so skeptically.
I think if they knew the otherperson was buying these
arguments, they'd probably seethemselves out.
But what their shared bond isin this, I think, is that
they're both kind of pursuing alibertarian, alternative
medicine magical thinking biasthat both groups exhibit very
(14:35):
regularly, and so when they'retalking about politics they
don't really overlap, but whenthey talk about health and
fitness, there actually is astrange overlap.
So anyway, that's who.
What do they say?
One of the claims would be thatit helps with weight loss.
They would claim that it canimprove gut health and lactose
(14:57):
intolerance.
It also has a better taste andtexture and, of course, people
(15:20):
have a right to consume better,because once you process it and
everything, that's when thedairy becomes harder to tolerate
.
So, yeah, I'll be done with thehorseshoe aspect of this in a
second.
But you guys have no idea howmany times I have been delayed
going to work because she isholding a fundraiser for a
prominent Democrat and I justwant to throw her under the bus
(15:40):
again that she and Alex Jones,who represents the exact polar
opposite end of our politicalspectrum, sell the exact same
supplements in terms ofchemicals under different names.
(16:18):
No-transcript.
I'm not even interested inpicking up any of their other
claims.
I just find that these are justvery funny and strange
bedfellows.
I know that if I was in eitherof their camps, that overlap
would at least give me a littlebit of skepticism in what
(16:40):
exactly I was listening to.
But admittedly I am not ineither of those camps and also,
admittedly, shame on me.
These are ad hominem attacks.
I'm merely attacking the sourceright now and, yeah, that's why
I generally try to stay awayfrom doing what I just did,
which is kind of speaking mytruth and how I feel about these
(17:00):
people, but we're going toattack the arguments, not their
celebrity and any of my feelingsabout them as how they run
their businesses.
But yeah, forget all that.
What does science say?
Not, simon, this is science.
So what science says aboutpasteuration is that milk can
(17:20):
contain salmonella E coli andother harmful bacteria.
Sidebar, sorry, I did grow upon a farm.
We didn't farm, but I lived inrural areas and to me it does
feel like people who don't growup around nature.
They're either terrified of itor they think it's like a Disney
(17:41):
movie and natural always equalsgood.
This is something I think this,this group of influencers I'm
talking about, kind ofsubscribes to.
A lot of these people grew upin cities and they kind of
fetishize, you know, certainaspects of natural spaces and I
think to them nature equals good.
Anyway, simon's doneeditorializing.
(18:01):
So, yeah, science onpasteurization.
So milk has salmonella E coli,some other harmful bacteria.
When you pasteurize it.
It allows for longer shelf life, wider availability and safety,
reduces waste and then improvesthe distribution.
I'm going to editorialize onemore time.
(18:22):
I had a very stronganti-enriched flower position
for many years and then I thinkit was at my daughter's first
physical at one year old she waslow on iron and obviously one
year olds they don't have a lotof teeth, so a lot of the
obvious things you would putinto a diet if it happened to
you as an adult weren't reallyoptions.
(18:44):
So it was funny because I justhad that lightning bolt moment
where this thing I had railedagainst for years suddenly I
understood why it existed, thatthere had been other times in
the very recent history wheremalnutrition and not getting
enough nutrients was the problem.
So there was both a good reasonfor me, simon the adult, to not
(19:06):
eat enriched flour, while Icould also understand exactly
why it existed and what purposeit was serving.
So I think that can directlykind of tie back to milk here,
because we live in a culture ofjust insane abundance.
So I don't think people wouldnecessarily think of how
increasing the distribution ofsomething would have been a very
(19:28):
key choice that we would havemade in order just to get people
the calories that they need.
I don't live in one anymore, butI used to live in an area of
the country that was called afood desert.
There were parts of rural NorthCarolina that would fit the
bill.
There were parts of ruralMontana that would fit the bill,
and so for many of the peoplelistening maybe it's not an
(19:50):
issue for you either, but fooddistribution is a very big issue
, particularly in non-wealthyzip codes.
So this whole discussion, to bekind of bluntly honest, if
you're even thinking about anyof these milk choices, I kind of
already know a lot about thezip code, the lifestyle and just
(20:12):
the social context that you'reexisting in, no matter how you
might feel or define it.
It does tell me a lot, quitefrankly.
But anyway, I do need to stopeditorializing.
So the nutritional differencesbetween raw milk and pasteurized
(20:33):
milk science says that they areminute.
Raw milk does contain some moreenzymes, but apparently they
aren't beneficial to humanhealth.
Science says taste isn't ahealth benefit.
Maybe we could argue that one.
Natural doesn't mean safe.
I'm with science there.
So not entirely an individualchoice.
(20:57):
This is going to kind of comeup on some pandemic stuff, but
apparently drinking raw milk canspread bird flu.
So I guess we can kind of makethe comparison to secondhand
smoke, where you clearly havethe freedom to put the smoke
into your lungs.
Nobody cares about that.
But it's the smoke that you'reputting out into the environment
that people care about that,but it's the smoke that you're
(21:19):
putting out into the environmentthat people care about.
I do think sometimes Americanshave a hard time understanding
that, that most people don'tcare about what they're doing to
themselves.
They only care about if theyhave to be party to it in some
way.
Or maybe that was just myexperience of recent events, but
yeah so I don't know.
Maybe that one's probablydebatable in the world we live
(21:42):
in.
I'm going to still go withscience there.
So you know, sometimes, even too, in this day and age, some
people think of health officialsas just a front for woke policy
.
You know me, though.
I love definitions, and for methat's a term more and more.
I don't know what it means, orI didn't even know if I was
(22:02):
going to be this blunt.
If a black person tells me orsays the word woke, I know what
they mean.
If a white person says it, Ihave to actually ask them what
do you mean?
Because it could mean anythingfrom political correctness to
climate, to how they feel aboutgender issues the black person's
talking about woke.
It would usually be themtelling me stay woke.
(22:23):
And it would usually be afterme saying something that
signified I understood some ofthe systemic challenges that you
know related to theirexperience.
So, yeah, I don't know howhealth officials can actually be
woke.
I know that's a common critique, but this is only a one-way
conversation.
(22:43):
If anybody's saying that,people that has made affording
homes for people my agedifficult, and I guess again,
(23:04):
that's just kind of where myconfusion with this term I know
everybody feels like they knowwhat's going on throwing words
like that around, but I don'tactually know what that means.
Oh and then last point I knowI've editorialized a fair bit in
here, but the points I havefrom science on raw milk.
So, between 2009 and 2014,relatively small sample size,
(23:27):
but raw milk and cheese wereconsumed by let's see so 3.2 and
1.6% of the US populationrespectively, and they accounted
for 96% of illness from dairycontamination.
So let's just stick with themilk 3.2% of Americans had
(23:48):
consumed raw milk and that 3.2%accounts for roughly 90% of
illness from dairy contamination.
I wrote what does Simon say?
But I've already let a bunch ofthis go already.
So, yeah, what does Simon thinkof all this raw milk?
Let a bunch of this go already.
So, yeah, what does simon thinkof all this raw milk stuff?
First, on the influence,promoting it again.
I feel like in general theyfetishize natural places and
(24:11):
they have a really childish, anaive understanding of nature.
Cyanide is natural, sharks arenatural.
Lots of natural stuff can killyou, like if we were out hiking,
you know, in some of the areasnear my house in Montana and I
(24:32):
told you not to drink the waterfrom the river.
You could do it, but the reasonI was telling you not to is
like a bunch of cows shit in thepastures just above it.
Cow shit's natural.
So is the Jardia that you'regoing to get.
But yeah, you, just you,literally.
(24:53):
I don't know man, you don'tdrink everything you come across
in nature.
I don't know what to tell you.
Pasteurization, I don't thinkis any more unnatural through
that Nair quotes, but it's nomore unnatural than cooking.
And I swore I was done adhominem attacking.
But you know, gwyneth Paltrowgrew up in Los Angeles.
(25:14):
I live here, a hunter.
Now they are both literallyactors playing a bit.
They have no idea what they'retalking about, what they're
promoting.
They are just literally actors.
(25:47):
Helps, weight loss, lol, no,that's stupid.
Calories, calories, calories,calories.
I'm almost getting sick ofdiscussing this, but the number
of ways that people try to findtheir way out of caloric
discipline and the things theyembrace while doing it make a
calm person want to smash hisface through a pane of glass.
This is dumb.
You need to create a caloricdeficit.
Drinking calories typicallyisn't something that I would
(26:10):
advocate.
On weight loss, I always liketo say drink water, coffee or
tea when that's your goal.
So no, that's dumb.
This one is just objectivelywrong.
Doesn't help with weight lossat all.
(26:31):
Improves gut health and lactoseintolerance.
I probably already said it, butI'm just going to go with the
science here.
Not likely.
I don't think so.
It's the sugars.
Lactose is kind of the issuewith lactose intolerance.
So if there was lactose in it,I don't really think that the
enzymes that aren't beneficialfor humans are going to make
(26:51):
much of a difference.
If you have lactose intolerance,you probably shouldn't be
consuming milk.
I don't want to tell you how tolive your life or anything, but
I don't think that is a greatchoice based on what I've read.
Better taste and texture.
That's the one Fair enough, Iguess.
I don't know, can't validate,but if that's like your reason
(27:14):
for it, then, like I said, gofor it.
That's subjective and I'mreally happy when people enjoy
the food that they eat.
That's something that can keepyou on a program if you're
actually enjoying the food.
So fair point if that's thecase.
And then yeah.
So last one, and I also thinkthis is relatively convincing
(27:34):
People have a right to putwhatever they want into their
bodies to an extent.
Yeah, my first reaction unlikethe scientists, scientists was
actually okay, cool, do drugsnext.
I'm not, you know, still hungup on, or I'm just not even
interested in debatingcommunicable diseases with
anybody anymore.
But yeah, so let's adopt thatsame stance for drugs.
(27:57):
And then I guess, just in thatstance, raw milk can jump in
line.
Do you know what I mean?
I feel like the war on drugshas created a lot more baggage
for a lot more people than thecouple milk raids that we've had
.
So, yeah, but given my stanceon illegal drugs, it would be
(28:17):
completely hypocritical of me tocriminalize users of raw milk.
But again, you can't likeopenly sell illegal drugs in
stores.
So if that's the bar, yeah, Idon't know, just get in line raw
milk drunk.
I technically do support yourright to do you, but I do reject
(28:38):
the notion that this is like areally powerful and profound
individual liberty issue, andthe reason is the arguments
around its benefits reallyaren't that convincing.
I'm not convinced.
Pasteurization was like a bigscheme to undermine the health
of people.
I kind of get why they did it.
(29:01):
I kind of get why they did itand yeah, so anyway, no scheme
here.
But we'll get to this in asecond.
Whether you're drinking milk atall or not, that's another
question that you know.
It's up to you as well.
Even just sort of put all thebutton on milk, at least as far
(29:21):
as I'm concerned.
Don't let culture war contentinform real life decisions.
In my experience, every culturewar issue is reductive and
binary.
It ignores any subtlety or anynuance.
That doesn't make the argumentthe speaker feels like making.
It's also been my experiencethat that same subtlety and
(29:43):
nuance that everyone ignoresthat's where you can actually
find real edges.
I love a finance analogy, butpolitics and investing similarly
don't mix.
Fitness and finance are thesame subject.
A few years back people talkedabout hyperinflation.
(30:06):
If you traded that, it hasn'tgone well for you.
Silicon Valley Bank collapsedand everybody said that it was
going to trigger bank defaults.
How many times has World WarIII trended for the last eight
years?
And you might be trying to dunkon me saying you know Israel
and Gaza and yes, they're,they're very bad situations
(30:27):
given, but you know, sudan isactually the source of the most
human casualties of any war onearth.
Right now and perhaps youhaven't seen any tweet storms
about it Nobody has opinionsready to go.
How, how to fix that one.
The media has successfullypredicted like 17 of the last
(30:49):
two recessions, but they didn'ttell you in 2021 to buy tech
stocks.
There was layoffs and they toldyou to run for the hills, but
then AI hit.
So you know I don't want tosound like Voltaire's Pangloss
or, if you haven't read it, Idon't believe that we live in
the best of all possible worlds,but you're not going to get
(31:12):
advance notice of anything butmovie times from the culture war
driven press.
If you want an edge, you'regoing to have to dive into the
details that no one else islooking at and, by definition,
that generally isn't theconversation that's being had.
You know, similar to that movie, what was leave the world
(31:38):
behind?
If you've seen it, there's justa, and I'm just going to spoil
it for you if you haven't.
Um, I don't even feel bad aboutit, but uh, it's a free movie
on netflix.
Well so, but yeah, this guy,he's got a friend like in the
defense department or somethingand he's disappeared, and but
they kind of come to realizelike, oh you know, they just got
a couple days head start.
(32:00):
Um, there, there again.
There's no big edge to be hadin any of this debate to kind of
zoom out and again pull awayfrom the culture war component.
Just on milk in general, and nowI'm talking all of them regular
milk, oat milk, rice milk,whatever, um, well, so you know,
(32:23):
first, specifically to theregular milk, if you're lactose
intolerant, don't drink it, youshouldn't, um, but if you're not
, you know you, you can drink it.
Um, there's a lot ofalternative milk products, and
even the regular milk.
The truth is you don't actuallyneed any of them the regular,
(32:45):
the oat, the rice, none of them.
I can build an entirely soliddiet without it have plenty of
times I've also included it inthere.
So this just isn't a big deal.
There's no edge to be had inmilk.
If you think raw milk orregular milk or oat milk or some
(33:06):
other milk that I just forgotto mention is either the bane of
your existence or the missingingredient.
Calm down, you've been soldsomething.
Touch grass, as the kids say.
This whole issue to me is again,again, a great example of
majoring in the minors.
(33:26):
If we are even going toentertain a milk discussion and
get this granular, we betteronly be talking to a group of
people who are eating 80minimally processed foods,
lifting weights regularly,drinking coffee, tea, water and
sleeping seven to nine hours anight.
Because if none of those thingsare in place or we're not there
(33:49):
yet, you know what I'm going tosay.
We're not ready to have agranular, somewhat meaningless
discussion about milk and evenpretend that that's a problem
that we have in the diet or inour health plan.
Carry the big rocks, focus onthe things that are important
and, again, don't let theculture war inform your opinions
(34:12):
on much of anything.
Definitely not health, becausethat's the only thing I'm really
qualified to talk about.
But anyway, I want to spendactually on one that I see as a
really positive story.
Finish on that note today,because I talked a lot of crap
today.
Anyway, there was someinteresting new.
Well, these are projections.
(34:34):
This wasn't really.
They obviously used data tocreate it, but the Institute of
Health, metrics and Evaluationat the University of Washington
released projections onlongevity.
So, you know, kind of likestalwarts, like Singapore,
switzerland, japan led the way.
Those weren't surprising.
One of the big correlationsthat emerges when you look at
(34:56):
the data is, in general, gdpcorrelates with longer life, but
there was a surprising, youknow, sort of grouping in
Southern Europe Spain, portugal,france and Italy that, relative
to their GDPs, perform quitewell.
(35:17):
So, you know, some people mightfeel like they already know
this or where we're going the.
You know, people talk veryoften about the Mediterranean
diet, and it's often creditedfor the long life in that region
.
What's interesting, though, isthat when you kind of get
granular and look at it,particularly at Spain, that
(35:39):
explanation doesn't really seemto hold up, and it's actually
kind of pointing to, you know,potentially something very
different.
Um, so, in spain in particular,the spanish drink more than the
european average, they smoke alittle bit more, and they do a
lot more cocaine than theeuropean average, and you know I
(36:02):
can already picture right nowsome other influencer will hear
this or, if they see this story,they're just going to go ahead
and pitch the cocoa plant assome new, organic, fair trade,
sustainably sourced.
Yeah, I can literally see thepitch now.
It's a natural blend ofnaturally occurring alkaloids
(36:26):
that optimize your neuralpathways by increasing dopamine
and serotonin levels,maintaining focus and mental
clarity.
There you go, huberman.
Take it, there's a free one man?
But no, I don't actually thinkthat what the data we're seeing
should promote cocaine use.
(36:48):
I think it's pointing to thatmaybe there's something else
going on, maybe that in spite ofthese kind of suboptimal habits
, they still enjoy a longlifespan.
So we know that the Spaniardsaren't particularly wealthy.
They have a number ofsuboptimal habits, but the one
(37:09):
thing that they do really well,better than the rest of Europe,
is they lead in walking.
So when I saw this, itliterally reminded me of again
something we've talked abouthere, but I call it the European
vacation paradox.
Literally, no one gains weighton vacation when they're in
Europe, in spite of drinkingbooze and eating whatever they
(37:29):
want, and it's because they walkto the sites.
I've been, you know, trainingfor a long time now and this
just is a fact.
If you walk to the sites, dowhatever else you want, you're
going to be fine, but anyway,that was kind of one of the
things I really liked looking atthis data was that was
(37:49):
confirming something that I hadanecdotally seen a lot with my
American clients heading over toEurope.
So the other thing that wasnotable in Spain's walking data
was that.
So countries that have highobesity, like the US, we have
very wide discrepancies in stepcounts.
It's very unequal.
We have some people getting alot of steps and we have other
(38:12):
people not getting many steps atall Obviously something that's
going to be hard for Americansto understand.
Inequality, wow, but no.
So countries that have lowobesity generally don't have
these wide variances in stepcounts.
They have higher averages, butalso lower variance your lowest
(38:35):
walkers versus your highestwalkers not as big a gap.
So this, to me, was one of theinteresting aspects that you can
kind of piece together.
But one of the things thatdrives, or why, why do Spaniards
walk so much?
I think a big part of it isactually going to get back to.
In Spain, neither culture, norhousing policy, nor regulation
(38:57):
favors construction of suburbs.
Some of you have been and youknow, but in Spain in particular
is the 15 minute city.
These are usually cities thatare organized around like a
common ground of some type wherepeople usually eat and
congregate, and you can prettymuch walk to any part of the
town in about 15 minutes.
(39:17):
This is the way most of thecities there have been designed,
and, yeah, so it turns out.
If you walk everywhere, you cankind of drink a little bit more
than average, eat a little bitmore, party a lot, and you can
mitigate most of the downsidesby just walking.
(39:40):
Side benefit though and I'vealso heard this from people
vacationing in spain having acity built that way also
encourages a sense of communitythat is very uncommon in
american cities.
We are the land of strip mallsand intersections.
Now, actually and I've traveledaround some of the worst in the
country, if you guys can thinkof, like what it's like down in
(40:01):
Florida, some of the roads downthere when you pull up to a
shopping center you'd have to besuicidal to walk around in any
of those areas, and this justisn't how cities are designed in
areas where they have lowobesity.
So this again, I think, is one.
It's, I think, a factor thatwe're not going to necessarily
(40:25):
think about.
It's not the intuitive answer,shall we say, but I think this
is a much better explanation forwhy obesity is such a prevalent
problem in our world and itisn't in other parts of the
world.
A lot of us are not eatingperfect diets A lot of us don't
have perfect information aboutwhat to eat and if you stay
(40:49):
moving and active and obviouslythe other part, staying involved
with your community, I thinkalso well, I know correlates
with positive health outcomesthese are just strategies that
are a lot more effective.
So, anyway, my big takeawayfrom looking at this was just
that To me, it just demonstrateshow effective movement and
(41:11):
community can be and howineffective a lot of our other
ideas are at addressing the goalof longevity.
I actually see it as great newsbecause these are real easy
things that we actually can fixand, like I said, I see it as
kind of inspiring, or just it'sliberating to know that you
(41:34):
don't need a perfectunderstanding or perfect
execution to get really goodresults.
You just need to get the basicsright, and we've expanded on a
broader set of basics butapparently from your training
component, if you get thewalking done, you're already a
long way.
If you do the basics we talkabout here, like back in moving
(41:55):
the big rocks, that's where Ithink you're legitimately going
to have elite health withouthaving to buy, you know new
products or have a newpersonality every six months.
All you really need is just tomove regularly, have strong
connections to your communityand your family.
(42:16):
All of those things are waybetter predictors of longevity
than so many of the things thatwe spend so much time and energy
focusing on, and I guess that'swhat kind of.
What I want to get to today isthat if we just spent a fraction
of the energy and the resourcesthat we put towards
(42:37):
self-optimization strategieswith no efficacy, we would have
better health and strongercommunities.
I'm not even going to pull upthe figure because it'll make me
sick, but when I hear us talkabout how we don't have money
for this, that, and I have to gowith my child to go to the
parks and I see what's been leftfor the next generation, this
(42:58):
is where we do need to be honestwith ourselves.
And again, maybe someone elsego Google it because it'll make
me nauseous but how much do wereally spend on wellness
products in a year and what dowe really value?
Because, first off, I get it,but you're not achieving
anything with that.
Why don't we put thoseresources to something that
(43:20):
actually works?
We put those resources tosomething that actually works.
You can never find money for thethings like the parks and
sports programs and stuff.
But then when you go talk topeople, these are the things
that people say they value,these are the things that people
say they miss.
And I think the thing we'veforgotten because any of us who
(43:42):
had those when we were kids,those were built for us by other
people.
And if we think those thingsare important and we want to see
that at some point we kind ofhave to look in the mirror and
build that.
And yeah, sorry to soapbox, butif you haven't been out to a
public park with a childrecently, a public park with a
(44:07):
child recently, um and I evenhear this perspective a lot,
just in, uh, some older people,quite frankly, but oh, my kids
are out of school, I'm donepaying for that.
And um, yeah, but they're gonnago find some money for some
elective surgeries and stuff,even though whoops, I'm getting
too brutally honest nobody's'slooking, or oh well, there we go
, just like.
Anyway, probably should cutthat one.
(44:32):
But no, the uplifting bit that Iwould really like to end on is
just that the things that weactually need to do to change
the world and make a betterplace are right in front of us.
They're not difficult.
It's been made to seem a lotmore confusing.
A lot of the exact samestrategies that you would put
towards optimizing your life,towards longevity.
These are the exact samestrategies that we should be
building for our communities.
(44:52):
So, anyway, I honestly remain alot more optimistic and
positive on that.
Once we see that path, therereally is no reason for us to
not put those things into action.
But anyway, guys, thanks forletting me clear that stuff up
and rant a little bit today.
Always appreciate your time andattention.
Remember mind and muscle areinseparably intertwined.
(45:15):
There are no gains withoutbrains.
Keep lifting and learning.
I'll do the same.
Welcome to the Mind Muscle Podcast.
Here's your host, simon DeVere,and welcome back to Mind Muscle
, the place where we study thehistory, science and philosophy
behind everything in health andfitness today.
Study the history, science andphilosophy behind everything in
(00:26):
health and fitness today.
I'm Simon DeVere, and there'snothing new except all that has
been forgotten.
All right, so you should well,if you listened to last episode,
you know one of the things thatwe're going to talk about today
meant to get to it last time.
I want to talk about theculture war coming for milk.
After I get through my thoughtson just the latest thing that's
(00:50):
going on, we'll just kind ofsum up milk in general.
This can kind of be a lotsimpler than I think the way
it's presented, but I also wantto touch base on some of the
changing trends that are goingon with food choices from
ozempic just a topic we'vealready been discussing a fair
bit here.
And then actually, I want tofinish up actually on some tips
(01:11):
for longevity, focusing on, Iguess, what we can maybe call
the spanish paradox no one'scalling it that yet, but, um, we
have some interesting data thatmaybe is revealing some keys
for longevity that you mightfind interesting.
So as long as I don't over talkthe other things, I came here
(01:32):
for that we will get to that onelast today.
But confession right up front Iam exhausted through my
daughter's birthday party thisweekend.
So shout out to any parents whoknow what that's like First man
on the beach, last one to leavea lot of setup, a lot of
teardown, got home to a lot ofassembly, so not going to lie,
(01:55):
being in this nice dark roomwhere it's quiet, kind of feel
like I should go to sleep rightnow.
If I was a listener of thispodcast, that's probably what I
would do for the sake of myhealth.
But no, anyway, I do have sometopics that I especially the
culture war coming from milkI've been chomping at the bit to
(02:16):
get at this one and at leastget my opinion out there.
So yeah, I do want to jump in.
But yeah, even though that'sthe one I'm really excited to
talk about today, I do want tojump in.
But yeah, even though that'sthe one I'm really excited to
talk about today, I do want toupdate just a trend or a story
that we've already been talkingabout here and that is Ozempic.
So obviously you'll rememberwhen we were talking about this
(02:37):
in the business world, a lot ofthe food brands were getting
concerned that consumers wouldbe changing habits if they were
using well, not only Ozempic butany of the GLP drugs.
There are going to be more andmore of those coming online.
So, yeah, I should probablyjust call them GLP drugs at this
point, not the brand nameOzempic At this point.
(03:00):
30 million Americans have takensome form of the new weight loss
drugs and they again rememberhow these work.
They're essentially reducingcravings.
Some of the weight loss drugsin the past have tried to alter
your metabolism and do otherthings.
These are actually working onspecific regions in the brain
(03:22):
that decrease your cravings.
And then again, interesting,not only for food some people
are having success beating otheraddictions smoking, drugs,
things of that nature.
But anyway, 30 millionAmericans have taken some form
of these drugs and billions ofdollars have been wiped out of
(03:43):
the market caps of foodcompanies, namely Nestle.
Nestle's taken about a threeand a half percent hit.
They are ascribing it to thechanging habits coming from
their own earnings calls andstatements.
But interesting to me wasactually not.
(04:05):
Everybody has seen a downtrendwith the rise of these drugs,
and so actually yogurt has beenone of the few beneficiaries.
So Dannon has actually seenincreased demand to the shifting
market trends.
They didn't specifically marketthemselves to GLP users, but
(04:27):
they are getting the benefit ofthe trend.
So again, people are.
This is reducing their cravings.
When you are on a GLP drug, itis important that you get things
like protein and nutrients ingood quantities, with relatively
low calories, because you'renot going to be very hungry and
your appetite just isn't goingto go and drive you to get that
(04:50):
nutrition the way you wouldprobably have been used to.
So, also kind of touching up onone of the things we already
talked about, one of the bigissues people are citing with
the use of these drugs is muscleloss.
We talked about that in detail.
I actually think that's peoplekind of overreacting.
There's going to be muscle lossevery time you get into a
(05:12):
caloric deficit, so that's notsurprising.
The studies that we have showvery, very similar rates of
muscle loss, whether usingOzempic, a GLP drug rather, or
just a regular caloric deficit.
So anyway, it's always aproblem that you're going to
lose muscle when you are in acaloric deficit.
(05:32):
So it's actually a good, solidchoice that consumers are making
.
We can kind of give peoplebecause I know I talk a lot of
crap about the stupid choices wemake.
This is actually people makingthe right choice and making a
good reaction.
But the flip side and thebusiness coverage of the sector
is kind of already reflectingthis is that food makers are
(05:54):
going to start changing some ofthe options that they are
offering, the big trends thatthey are going to be pushing out
in their ultra processedversions of you know, good foods
.
They're probably going to pushthe protein counts, they're
probably going to pump thenutrient quantities and they're
probably going to reduce theportions.
(06:15):
Jaded part of me thinks that'sgoing to just kind of increase
profit margins, since they'll beable to downsize, probably
charge the same price or evenmore if it has a cool new
rebrand on it.
But again, jaded part of me,this is kind of new for them to
actually be behind the trend.
The GLP drugs really did seemto catch them unprepared.
(06:37):
Normally they pay for a slew ofstudies, highlight the benefits
of some reductive thing, andthen the products are already
ready to go by the time you'rereading about that thing in the
papers they paid to put it outin.
But yeah, so they're a littlebit behind the eight ball on
this one, but what you areprobably going to see is a new
(06:57):
generation of ultra processedfoods that are going to appeal
to GLP users specifically, butpeople just use living a healthy
lifestyle broadly.
So my take on all this is youknow, stick to yogurt.
What's up, danon?
Do you guys ever want to?
(07:17):
You know, shout out.
My brand is actually Faye.
It's that Greek yogurt I like,that they have a lot of protein
and that it tells you how topronounce it on the bottle, but
also that that actually mostly,mostly for the protein.
But anyway, yogurt guys, firstone's free.
If you guys want me to keepplugging it, um, you're going to
have to pay me.
Uh yeah, but obviously I'm abroken record on this and I know
(07:41):
it.
But stick to your minimallyprocessed foods.
There's really no reason why, ifyou are calorically restricting
, using a GLP drug or not, whyyou should be favoring ultra
processed foods.
I know that they're not out yet, but there's going to be just a
whole new slew of products thatare going to be engineered for
(08:06):
people with these concerns topurchase.
So, same rules.
I would say stick to theperimeter of the grocery store.
That's where you're going tofind all the food.
Maybe I'm being a little bitjaded.
I'm being a little bit jaded.
There could be a net positivethat if these ultra-processed
food makers are moving away fromthe techniques that they have
(08:29):
been using to willfully causepeople to overeat, yeah, that
would be good.
But clearly you can probablyhear the skepticism.
I'm not going to hold my breaththat they're still going to
need to design and engineerproducts so that they can
continue to grow their earnings.
That's what's expected of them,and so I would expect nothing
(08:51):
less.
But I guess I can also justkeep arguing against it, because
even if they did, they stoppedusing these techniques to
engineer foods to be overeaten.
The truth is, even if thenutrient quantities, say,
matched a minimally processedfood source, they can match the
(09:12):
amounts of nutrients, but theystill can't match the context of
the food.
So if you're just eatingminimally processed foods,
you're still going to be waymore likely to absorb the
nutrients that are in the foodsyou know.
Obviously you just if you can'treplicate the context, we can't
make sure that all those goodthings are bioavailable and in
the position to be absorbed whenyou eat them.
(09:33):
So even if there was atheoretical ultra processed food
that matched an apple, on allthe measurable properties of the
apple, these reductiveproperties that we would talk
about how many calories, howmany vitamins, all the nutrients
.
You're still going to miss someof the context.
(09:53):
And so again and I've talkedabout this this is not like a
purity based thing.
We're not talking 100%.
I live in the real world.
Sometimes these things can makeyour life easier.
Sometimes you're busy or tired,I know what that's about.
But these things can make yourlife easier.
Sometimes you're busy or tired,I know what that's about.
But you're still going to aimto keep this to roughly 80% of
the time minimally processedfoods, and outside of that
(10:15):
you're going to be all right Ifwe have a little bit of
tolerance.
Human beings are fortunatelyvery malleable, flexible and we
can seek out novel things.
So, yeah, if, if 80 of the time, you've got the minimally
processed food, it's really notgoing to be a big deal.
If you've got one or two thingshere and there, no point to be,
uh, you know, pushing any sortof purity based.
(10:35):
But again, call, call meskeptical, but I think we are
going to see sort of the latestiteration of nutritionism, this
idea that we've talked about afair bit here, but that the
value of a food can becommunicated in the sum total of
the reductive nutrients,vitamins, that we can explain it
(10:57):
that way, that we can engineerfood products that way.
Again, I am more in that campof a more holistic approach,
which should raise red flagssince the alternative new age
medicine.
People say that a lot, but no,what we just mean with holistic
is just considering the entirecontext of the food, the soil
(11:20):
that it comes from, all of thosethings.
That's going to be a lot moreeffective actually at getting
you high quality foods than thantaking the reductive approach
Just on.
On balance, it's a much betterheuristic get you there a lot
more reliably.
Anyway, I'm double talking now,so I just want to go ahead and
move on before we justcompletely beat that dead.
(11:42):
Last week I never did get totalk about the culture war
moving to milk, and so again Iwas lucky just to be in Los
Angeles.
Well, just not that lucky, butlucky in a sense to talk about
this.
We had a natural grocery storedown in Venice Rossum it was
(12:05):
raided over a decade ago sellingraw milk.
So now this is kind of, youknow, recirculated and we're
back to the raw milk thing now.
And but this time, you know,culture was obviously always
there to an extent, but theculture was much more developed
(12:26):
now.
So now that it's kicking backthrough this time, you know it's
, I guess I'll just say,garnering a little bit more
attention, and I think a lot ofpeople are going to be coming
into this with motivatedreasoning because it is aligning
itself with the culture war.
So I want to take just a lessemotional and more of a
(12:47):
science-based approach on whatthe value, or lack thereof, may
be with raw milk versuspasteurized milk, and then we'll
even jump later into oat milkand milk replacements.
Just kind of try to sum up,we'll try to make this one
actually just kind of astandalone on everything you
need to know about milk.
(13:08):
Admittedly, that's just a funnyone to me and I didn't even
prep this part.
But you go into the milk aislenow and you look around and just
the number of options that thatis literally when I start to
feel like an old man and likeget off my lawn is what do we
need with all of this?
Um, but anyway, what?
What do the proponents say?
Let's, let's at least considertheir arguments, because this
(13:29):
could just be an old man takewith, with me not approving of
all of these milk varieties.
So first we'll talk about rawmilk, the proponents of raw milk
.
Sorry, one more little bit ofeditorializing.
Before I say what they say, canwe just say who they are?
Because this is kind of theculture war component.
(13:49):
What I'm seeing right now withthe raw milk proponents is to me
they are kind of amanifestation of horseshoe
theory.
These are popular influencers,but it's that strange space
online where goop and q anon,you know, overlap, and a lot of
their followers, I don't think,know that they overlap because
(14:11):
they would probably view eachother, uh so skeptically.
I think if they knew the otherperson was buying these
arguments, they'd probably seethemselves out.
But what their shared bond isin this, I think, is that
they're both kind of pursuing alibertarian, alternative
medicine magical thinking biasthat both groups exhibit very
(14:35):
regularly, and so when they'retalking about politics they
don't really overlap, but whenthey talk about health and
fitness, there actually is astrange overlap.
So anyway, that's who.
What do they say?
One of the claims would be thatit helps with weight loss.
They would claim that it canimprove gut health and lactose
(14:57):
intolerance.
It also has a better taste andtexture and, of course, people
(15:20):
have a right to consume better,because once you process it and
everything, that's when thedairy becomes harder to tolerate
.
So, yeah, I'll be done with thehorseshoe aspect of this in a
second.
But you guys have no idea howmany times I have been delayed
going to work because she isholding a fundraiser for a
prominent Democrat and I justwant to throw her under the bus
(15:40):
again that she and Alex Jones,who represents the exact polar
opposite end of our politicalspectrum, sell the exact same
supplements in terms ofchemicals under different names.
(16:18):
No-transcript.
I'm not even interested inpicking up any of their other
claims.
I just find that these are justvery funny and strange
bedfellows.
I know that if I was in eitherof their camps, that overlap
would at least give me a littlebit of skepticism in what
(16:40):
exactly I was listening to.
But admittedly I am not ineither of those camps and also,
admittedly, shame on me.
These are ad hominem attacks.
I'm merely attacking the sourceright now and, yeah, that's why
I generally try to stay awayfrom doing what I just did,
which is kind of speaking mytruth and how I feel about these
(17:00):
people, but we're going toattack the arguments, not their
celebrity and any of my feelingsabout them as how they run
their businesses.
But yeah, forget all that.
What does science say?
Not, simon, this is science.
So what science says aboutpasteuration is that milk can
(17:20):
contain salmonella E coli andother harmful bacteria.
Sidebar, sorry, I did grow upon a farm.
We didn't farm, but I lived inrural areas and to me it does
feel like people who don't growup around nature.
They're either terrified of itor they think it's like a Disney
(17:41):
movie and natural always equalsgood.
This is something I think this,this group of influencers I'm
talking about, kind ofsubscribes to.
A lot of these people grew upin cities and they kind of
fetishize, you know, certainaspects of natural spaces and I
think to them nature equals good.
Anyway, simon's doneeditorializing.
(18:01):
So, yeah, science onpasteurization.
So milk has salmonella E coli,some other harmful bacteria.
When you pasteurize it.
It allows for longer shelf life, wider availability and safety,
reduces waste and then improvesthe distribution.
I'm going to editorialize onemore time.
(18:22):
I had a very stronganti-enriched flower position
for many years and then I thinkit was at my daughter's first
physical at one year old she waslow on iron and obviously one
year olds they don't have a lotof teeth, so a lot of the
obvious things you would putinto a diet if it happened to
you as an adult weren't reallyoptions.
(18:44):
So it was funny because I justhad that lightning bolt moment
where this thing I had railedagainst for years suddenly I
understood why it existed, thatthere had been other times in
the very recent history wheremalnutrition and not getting
enough nutrients was the problem.
So there was both a good reasonfor me, simon the adult, to not
(19:06):
eat enriched flour, while Icould also understand exactly
why it existed and what purposeit was serving.
So I think that can directlykind of tie back to milk here,
because we live in a culture ofjust insane abundance.
So I don't think people wouldnecessarily think of how
increasing the distribution ofsomething would have been a very
(19:28):
key choice that we would havemade in order just to get people
the calories that they need.
I don't live in one anymore, butI used to live in an area of
the country that was called afood desert.
There were parts of rural NorthCarolina that would fit the
bill.
There were parts of ruralMontana that would fit the bill,
and so for many of the peoplelistening maybe it's not an
(19:50):
issue for you either, but fooddistribution is a very big issue
, particularly in non-wealthyzip codes.
So this whole discussion, to bekind of bluntly honest, if
you're even thinking about anyof these milk choices, I kind of
already know a lot about thezip code, the lifestyle and just
(20:12):
the social context that you'reexisting in, no matter how you
might feel or define it.
It does tell me a lot, quitefrankly.
But anyway, I do need to stopeditorializing.
So the nutritional differencesbetween raw milk and pasteurized
(20:33):
milk science says that they areminute.
Raw milk does contain some moreenzymes, but apparently they
aren't beneficial to humanhealth.
Science says taste isn't ahealth benefit.
Maybe we could argue that one.
Natural doesn't mean safe.
I'm with science there.
So not entirely an individualchoice.
(20:57):
This is going to kind of comeup on some pandemic stuff, but
apparently drinking raw milk canspread bird flu.
So I guess we can kind of makethe comparison to secondhand
smoke, where you clearly havethe freedom to put the smoke
into your lungs.
Nobody cares about that.
But it's the smoke that you'reputting out into the environment
that people care about that,but it's the smoke that you're
(21:19):
putting out into the environmentthat people care about.
I do think sometimes Americanshave a hard time understanding
that, that most people don'tcare about what they're doing to
themselves.
They only care about if theyhave to be party to it in some
way.
Or maybe that was just myexperience of recent events, but
yeah so I don't know.
Maybe that one's probablydebatable in the world we live
(21:42):
in.
I'm going to still go withscience there.
So you know, sometimes, even too, in this day and age, some
people think of health officialsas just a front for woke policy
.
You know me, though.
I love definitions, and for methat's a term more and more.
I don't know what it means, orI didn't even know if I was
(22:02):
going to be this blunt.
If a black person tells me orsays the word woke, I know what
they mean.
If a white person says it, Ihave to actually ask them what
do you mean?
Because it could mean anythingfrom political correctness to
climate, to how they feel aboutgender issues the black person's
talking about woke.
It would usually be themtelling me stay woke.
(22:23):
And it would usually be afterme saying something that
signified I understood some ofthe systemic challenges that you
know related to theirexperience.
So, yeah, I don't know howhealth officials can actually be
woke.
I know that's a common critique, but this is only a one-way
conversation.
(22:43):
If anybody's saying that,people that has made affording
homes for people my agedifficult, and I guess again,
(23:04):
that's just kind of where myconfusion with this term I know
everybody feels like they knowwhat's going on throwing words
like that around, but I don'tactually know what that means.
Oh and then last point I knowI've editorialized a fair bit in
here, but the points I havefrom science on raw milk.
So, between 2009 and 2014,relatively small sample size,
(23:27):
but raw milk and cheese wereconsumed by let's see so 3.2 and
1.6% of the US populationrespectively, and they accounted
for 96% of illness from dairycontamination.
So let's just stick with themilk 3.2% of Americans had
(23:48):
consumed raw milk and that 3.2%accounts for roughly 90% of
illness from dairy contamination.
I wrote what does Simon say?
But I've already let a bunch ofthis go already.
So, yeah, what does Simon thinkof all this raw milk?
Let a bunch of this go already.
So, yeah, what does simon thinkof all this raw milk stuff?
First, on the influence,promoting it again.
I feel like in general theyfetishize natural places and
(24:11):
they have a really childish, anaive understanding of nature.
Cyanide is natural, sharks arenatural.
Lots of natural stuff can killyou, like if we were out hiking,
you know, in some of the areasnear my house in Montana and I
(24:32):
told you not to drink the waterfrom the river.
You could do it, but the reasonI was telling you not to is
like a bunch of cows shit in thepastures just above it.
Cow shit's natural.
So is the Jardia that you'regoing to get.
But yeah, you, just you,literally.
(24:53):
I don't know man, you don'tdrink everything you come across
in nature.
I don't know what to tell you.
Pasteurization, I don't thinkis any more unnatural through
that Nair quotes, but it's nomore unnatural than cooking.
And I swore I was done adhominem attacking.
But you know, gwyneth Paltrowgrew up in Los Angeles.
(25:14):
I live here, a hunter.
Now they are both literallyactors playing a bit.
They have no idea what they'retalking about, what they're
promoting.
They are just literally actors.
(25:47):
Helps, weight loss, lol, no,that's stupid.
Calories, calories, calories,calories.
I'm almost getting sick ofdiscussing this, but the number
of ways that people try to findtheir way out of caloric
discipline and the things theyembrace while doing it make a
calm person want to smash hisface through a pane of glass.
This is dumb.
You need to create a caloricdeficit.
Drinking calories typicallyisn't something that I would
(26:10):
advocate.
On weight loss, I always liketo say drink water, coffee or
tea when that's your goal.
So no, that's dumb.
This one is just objectivelywrong.
Doesn't help with weight lossat all.
(26:31):
Improves gut health and lactoseintolerance.
I probably already said it, butI'm just going to go with the
science here.
Not likely.
I don't think so.
It's the sugars.
Lactose is kind of the issuewith lactose intolerance.
So if there was lactose in it,I don't really think that the
enzymes that aren't beneficialfor humans are going to make
(26:51):
much of a difference.
If you have lactose intolerance,you probably shouldn't be
consuming milk.
I don't want to tell you how tolive your life or anything, but
I don't think that is a greatchoice based on what I've read.
Better taste and texture.
That's the one Fair enough, Iguess.
I don't know, can't validate,but if that's like your reason
(27:14):
for it, then, like I said, gofor it.
That's subjective and I'mreally happy when people enjoy
the food that they eat.
That's something that can keepyou on a program if you're
actually enjoying the food.
So fair point if that's thecase.
And then yeah.
So last one, and I also thinkthis is relatively convincing
(27:34):
People have a right to putwhatever they want into their
bodies to an extent.
Yeah, my first reaction unlikethe scientists, scientists was
actually okay, cool, do drugsnext.
I'm not, you know, still hungup on, or I'm just not even
interested in debatingcommunicable diseases with
anybody anymore.
But yeah, so let's adopt thatsame stance for drugs.
(27:57):
And then I guess, just in thatstance, raw milk can jump in
line.
Do you know what I mean?
I feel like the war on drugshas created a lot more baggage
for a lot more people than thecouple milk raids that we've had
.
So, yeah, but given my stanceon illegal drugs, it would be
(28:17):
completely hypocritical of me tocriminalize users of raw milk.
But again, you can't likeopenly sell illegal drugs in
stores.
So if that's the bar, yeah, Idon't know, just get in line raw
milk drunk.
I technically do support yourright to do you, but I do reject
(28:38):
the notion that this is like areally powerful and profound
individual liberty issue, andthe reason is the arguments
around its benefits reallyaren't that convincing.
I'm not convinced.
Pasteurization was like a bigscheme to undermine the health
of people.
I kind of get why they did it.
(29:01):
I kind of get why they did itand yeah, so anyway, no scheme
here.
But we'll get to this in asecond.
Whether you're drinking milk atall or not, that's another
question that you know.
It's up to you as well.
Even just sort of put all thebutton on milk, at least as far
(29:21):
as I'm concerned.
Don't let culture war contentinform real life decisions.
In my experience, every culturewar issue is reductive and
binary.
It ignores any subtlety or anynuance.
That doesn't make the argumentthe speaker feels like making.
It's also been my experiencethat that same subtlety and
(29:43):
nuance that everyone ignoresthat's where you can actually
find real edges.
I love a finance analogy, butpolitics and investing similarly
don't mix.
Fitness and finance are thesame subject.
A few years back people talkedabout hyperinflation.
(30:06):
If you traded that, it hasn'tgone well for you.
Silicon Valley Bank collapsedand everybody said that it was
going to trigger bank defaults.
How many times has World WarIII trended for the last eight
years?
And you might be trying to dunkon me saying you know Israel
and Gaza and yes, they're,they're very bad situations
(30:27):
given, but you know, sudan isactually the source of the most
human casualties of any war onearth.
Right now and perhaps youhaven't seen any tweet storms
about it Nobody has opinionsready to go.
How, how to fix that one.
The media has successfullypredicted like 17 of the last
(30:49):
two recessions, but they didn'ttell you in 2021 to buy tech
stocks.
There was layoffs and they toldyou to run for the hills, but
then AI hit.
So you know I don't want tosound like Voltaire's Pangloss
or, if you haven't read it, Idon't believe that we live in
the best of all possible worlds,but you're not going to get
(31:12):
advance notice of anything butmovie times from the culture war
driven press.
If you want an edge, you'regoing to have to dive into the
details that no one else islooking at and, by definition,
that generally isn't theconversation that's being had.
You know, similar to that movie, what was leave the world
(31:38):
behind?
If you've seen it, there's justa, and I'm just going to spoil
it for you if you haven't.
Um, I don't even feel bad aboutit, but uh, it's a free movie
on netflix.
Well so, but yeah, this guy,he's got a friend like in the
defense department or somethingand he's disappeared, and but
they kind of come to realizelike, oh you know, they just got
a couple days head start.
(32:00):
Um, there, there again.
There's no big edge to be hadin any of this debate to kind of
zoom out and again pull awayfrom the culture war component.
Just on milk in general, and nowI'm talking all of them regular
milk, oat milk, rice milk,whatever, um, well, so you know,
(32:23):
first, specifically to theregular milk, if you're lactose
intolerant, don't drink it, youshouldn't, um, but if you're not
, you know you, you can drink it.
Um, there's a lot ofalternative milk products, and
even the regular milk.
The truth is you don't actuallyneed any of them the regular,
(32:45):
the oat, the rice, none of them.
I can build an entirely soliddiet without it have plenty of
times I've also included it inthere.
So this just isn't a big deal.
There's no edge to be had inmilk.
If you think raw milk orregular milk or oat milk or some
(33:06):
other milk that I just forgotto mention is either the bane of
your existence or the missingingredient.
Calm down, you've been soldsomething.
Touch grass, as the kids say.
This whole issue to me is again,again, a great example of
majoring in the minors.
(33:26):
If we are even going toentertain a milk discussion and
get this granular, we betteronly be talking to a group of
people who are eating 80minimally processed foods,
lifting weights regularly,drinking coffee, tea, water and
sleeping seven to nine hours anight.
Because if none of those thingsare in place or we're not there
(33:49):
yet, you know what I'm going tosay.
We're not ready to have agranular, somewhat meaningless
discussion about milk and evenpretend that that's a problem
that we have in the diet or inour health plan.
Carry the big rocks, focus onthe things that are important
and, again, don't let theculture war inform your opinions
(34:12):
on much of anything.
Definitely not health, becausethat's the only thing I'm really
qualified to talk about.
But anyway, I want to spendactually on one that I see as a
really positive story.
Finish on that note today,because I talked a lot of crap
today.
Anyway, there was someinteresting new.
Well, these are projections.
(34:34):
This wasn't really.
They obviously used data tocreate it, but the Institute of
Health, metrics and Evaluationat the University of Washington
released projections onlongevity.
So, you know, kind of likestalwarts, like Singapore,
switzerland, japan led the way.
Those weren't surprising.
One of the big correlationsthat emerges when you look at
(34:56):
the data is, in general, gdpcorrelates with longer life, but
there was a surprising, youknow, sort of grouping in
Southern Europe Spain, portugal,france and Italy that, relative
to their GDPs, perform quitewell.
(35:17):
So, you know, some people mightfeel like they already know
this or where we're going the.
You know, people talk veryoften about the Mediterranean
diet, and it's often creditedfor the long life in that region
.
What's interesting, though, isthat when you kind of get
granular and look at it,particularly at Spain, that
(35:39):
explanation doesn't really seemto hold up, and it's actually
kind of pointing to, you know,potentially something very
different.
Um, so, in spain in particular,the spanish drink more than the
european average, they smoke alittle bit more, and they do a
lot more cocaine than theeuropean average, and you know I
(36:02):
can already picture right nowsome other influencer will hear
this or, if they see this story,they're just going to go ahead
and pitch the cocoa plant assome new, organic, fair trade,
sustainably sourced.
Yeah, I can literally see thepitch now.
It's a natural blend ofnaturally occurring alkaloids
(36:26):
that optimize your neuralpathways by increasing dopamine
and serotonin levels,maintaining focus and mental
clarity.
There you go, huberman.
Take it, there's a free one man?
But no, I don't actually thinkthat what the data we're seeing
should promote cocaine use.
(36:48):
I think it's pointing to thatmaybe there's something else
going on, maybe that in spite ofthese kind of suboptimal habits
, they still enjoy a longlifespan.
So we know that the Spaniardsaren't particularly wealthy.
They have a number ofsuboptimal habits, but the one
(37:09):
thing that they do really well,better than the rest of Europe,
is they lead in walking.
So when I saw this, itliterally reminded me of again
something we've talked abouthere, but I call it the European
vacation paradox.
Literally, no one gains weighton vacation when they're in
Europe, in spite of drinkingbooze and eating whatever they
(37:29):
want, and it's because they walkto the sites.
I've been, you know, trainingfor a long time now and this
just is a fact.
If you walk to the sites, dowhatever else you want, you're
going to be fine, but anyway,that was kind of one of the
things I really liked looking atthis data was that was
(37:49):
confirming something that I hadanecdotally seen a lot with my
American clients heading over toEurope.
So the other thing that wasnotable in Spain's walking data
was that.
So countries that have highobesity, like the US, we have
very wide discrepancies in stepcounts.
It's very unequal.
We have some people getting alot of steps and we have other
(38:12):
people not getting many steps atall Obviously something that's
going to be hard for Americansto understand.
Inequality, wow, but no.
So countries that have lowobesity generally don't have
these wide variances in stepcounts.
They have higher averages, butalso lower variance your lowest
(38:35):
walkers versus your highestwalkers not as big a gap.
So this, to me, was one of theinteresting aspects that you can
kind of piece together.
But one of the things thatdrives, or why, why do Spaniards
walk so much?
I think a big part of it isactually going to get back to.
In Spain, neither culture, norhousing policy, nor regulation
(38:57):
favors construction of suburbs.
Some of you have been and youknow, but in Spain in particular
is the 15 minute city.
These are usually cities thatare organized around like a
common ground of some type wherepeople usually eat and
congregate, and you can prettymuch walk to any part of the
town in about 15 minutes.
(39:17):
This is the way most of thecities there have been designed,
and, yeah, so it turns out.
If you walk everywhere, you cankind of drink a little bit more
than average, eat a little bitmore, party a lot, and you can
mitigate most of the downsidesby just walking.
(39:40):
Side benefit though and I'vealso heard this from people
vacationing in spain having acity built that way also
encourages a sense of communitythat is very uncommon in
american cities.
We are the land of strip mallsand intersections.
Now, actually and I've traveledaround some of the worst in the
country, if you guys can thinkof, like what it's like down in
(40:01):
Florida, some of the roads downthere when you pull up to a
shopping center you'd have to besuicidal to walk around in any
of those areas, and this justisn't how cities are designed in
areas where they have lowobesity.
So this again, I think, is one.
It's, I think, a factor thatwe're not going to necessarily
(40:25):
think about.
It's not the intuitive answer,shall we say, but I think this
is a much better explanation forwhy obesity is such a prevalent
problem in our world and itisn't in other parts of the
world.
A lot of us are not eatingperfect diets A lot of us don't
have perfect information aboutwhat to eat and if you stay
(40:49):
moving and active and obviouslythe other part, staying involved
with your community, I thinkalso well, I know correlates
with positive health outcomesthese are just strategies that
are a lot more effective.
So, anyway, my big takeawayfrom looking at this was just
that To me, it just demonstrateshow effective movement and
(41:11):
community can be and howineffective a lot of our other
ideas are at addressing the goalof longevity.
I actually see it as great newsbecause these are real easy
things that we actually can fixand, like I said, I see it as
kind of inspiring, or just it'sliberating to know that you
(41:34):
don't need a perfectunderstanding or perfect
execution to get really goodresults.
You just need to get the basicsright, and we've expanded on a
broader set of basics butapparently from your training
component, if you get thewalking done, you're already a
long way.
If you do the basics we talkabout here, like back in moving
(41:55):
the big rocks, that's where Ithink you're legitimately going
to have elite health withouthaving to buy, you know new
products or have a newpersonality every six months.
All you really need is just tomove regularly, have strong
connections to your communityand your family.
(42:16):
All of those things are waybetter predictors of longevity
than so many of the things thatwe spend so much time and energy
focusing on, and I guess that'swhat kind of.
What I want to get to today isthat if we just spent a fraction
of the energy and the resourcesthat we put towards
(42:37):
self-optimization strategieswith no efficacy, we would have
better health and strongercommunities.
I'm not even going to pull upthe figure because it'll make me
sick, but when I hear us talkabout how we don't have money
for this, that, and I have to gowith my child to go to the
parks and I see what's been leftfor the next generation, this
(42:58):
is where we do need to be honestwith ourselves.
And again, maybe someone elsego Google it because it'll make
me nauseous but how much do wereally spend on wellness
products in a year and what dowe really value?
Because, first off, I get it,but you're not achieving
anything with that.
Why don't we put thoseresources to something that
(43:20):
actually works?
We put those resources tosomething that actually works.
You can never find money for thethings like the parks and
sports programs and stuff.
But then when you go talk topeople, these are the things
that people say they value,these are the things that people
say they miss.
And I think the thing we'veforgotten because any of us who
(43:42):
had those when we were kids,those were built for us by other
people.
And if we think those thingsare important and we want to see
that at some point we kind ofhave to look in the mirror and
build that.
And yeah, sorry to soapbox, butif you haven't been out to a
public park with a childrecently, a public park with a
(44:07):
child recently, um and I evenhear this perspective a lot,
just in, uh, some older people,quite frankly, but oh, my kids
are out of school, I'm donepaying for that.
And um, yeah, but they're gonnago find some money for some
elective surgeries and stuff,even though whoops, I'm getting
too brutally honest nobody's'slooking, or oh well, there we go
, just like.
Anyway, probably should cutthat one.
(44:32):
But no, the uplifting bit that Iwould really like to end on is
just that the things that weactually need to do to change
the world and make a betterplace are right in front of us.
They're not difficult.
It's been made to seem a lotmore confusing.
A lot of the exact samestrategies that you would put
towards optimizing your life,towards longevity.
These are the exact samestrategies that we should be
building for our communities.
(44:52):
So, anyway, I honestly remain alot more optimistic and
positive on that.
Once we see that path, therereally is no reason for us to
not put those things into action.
But anyway, guys, thanks forletting me clear that stuff up
and rant a little bit today.
Always appreciate your time andattention.
Remember mind and muscle areinseparably intertwined.
(45:15):
There are no gains withoutbrains.
Keep lifting and learning.
I'll do the same.
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