September 8, 2025 • 31 mins
(Episode 48) Ever find yourself asking, “Is this really it?” You’re not alone—and you’re not stuck.
In this empowering episode of Mind Your Midlife, Cheryl Fischer sits down with Dr. Wendy O’Connor, a Stanford-trained positive psychologist and success coach, to talk about what it truly means to thrive as women over 40. We dig into the difference between success and happiness, how to stop living by everyone else’s “shoulds,” and why giving yourself permission to thrive may be the most important self care decision you make in midlife.
Dr. Wendy brings deep insight into why so many midlife women feel unfulfilled even after achieving all the traditional milestones—and how to finally shift your mindset so you can live with confidence, joy, and meaning.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:
✔ Why success and happiness are not the same—and why both matter for midlife women
✔ How “shoulds” and old roadmaps keep women over 40 and 50 stuck in self-doubt
✔ The mindset shift that helps you give yourself permission to thrive without guilt
✔ How to move through regret and create your next chapter with clarity and self confidence
🎯 OMG Moment: Happiness is not a luxury—it’s a foundation. Giving yourself permission to redefine your life now is the next step to creating the life you really want.
Take Action
Notice the “nudge.” That little voice inside that asks, Is this really it? or Could life feel better than this? Instead of ignoring it, honor it. That’s your intuition guiding you toward your next chapter.
Connect with Dr. Wendy at drwendyoconnor.com or on Instagram.
Listen to the 'second act' episode with Shannon Russell (episode 32).
Why This Episode Matters
For too long, midlife women have followed a script of “success” that doesn’t always bring fulfillment. This episode is your reminder that midlife is not a crisis—it’s your chance to redefine success, reclaim joy, and create a life that feels meaningful to YOU.
🎧 Hit follow now so you don’t miss a thing!
Subscribe to bonus episodes at cherylpfischer.com/bonusepisodes.
🌸 Liked this episode? Share it with fellow Gen X women navigating hormone balance, an empty nest, and/or self-confidence!
🫶 Love this show? Leave a review to help more women over 50 find us.
💡Want menopause support, mindset shifts, or support with midlife transitions?
- Build a mindset for success with the private bonus episodes!
- Book a free Mindset Coaching / Intro Call: cherylpfischer.com/coaching
Let’s talk midlife body positivity, self-talk, and redefining aging for women — without the “midlife crisis” narrative. Every week I'm adding new success strategies for midlife women.
Connect with Cheryl, Midlife Coach: Instagram | LinkedIn | Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cheryl Fischer (00:01):
If I say the phrase permission to thrive to
you, I wonder what comes to mind, because when I work with
clients on mindset, we'redigging into what's all that
stuff we're telling ourselvesinside our head.
A lot of it tends to bemessages that absolutely are not
(00:25):
permission to thrive.
It's self-criticism, it'sworries, it's what ifs, and
that's what we want to talkabout today.
You get permission to thrive.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind your Midlife,your go-to resource for
confidence and success.
(00:45):
One thought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and oh my
goodness powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
(01:08):
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind your Midlifepodcast.
Our brains are wired to keep ussafe.
I feel like I've said thatsentence so many times.
I should have a dollar forevery time I say that sentence.
Our brains are wired to keep ussafe, and that's a good thing,
(01:29):
and yet in our everyday lives,we're not facing danger
typically as if we were runningfrom a wild animal or something
like that.
We've learned not to touch thehot stove and to look both ways
when crossing the street, andwe're handling those dangers,
but we're not facing overarchingdanger, and yet our brains and
(01:51):
our nervous systems are wired tokeep us safe from dangers like
that.
So sometimes we do what maybeI'm going to call an over safety
.
We make ourselves smaller tokeep even more safe from things
that feel like a challenge.
(02:12):
And so today, my guest, dr WendyO'Connor, and I are going to be
talking about giving yourselfpermission to thrive, and we
have to then also talk aboutwhat in the world does that mean
?
What does success mean?
What does happiness mean?
Are they the same thing?
How do you decide?
(02:32):
Is it what somebody told you todo, is it not?
That's a lot of stuff.
So Dr Wendy O'Connor is joiningme.
As I said, she is a Stanfordtrained positive psychologist
and success coach.
She helps women exactly as wewould love to do design
meaningful, intentional andfulfilling lives.
(02:54):
So let's chat.
Welcome, wendy.
Thanks for joining me.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (02:58):
I'm excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Cheryl Fischer (03:01):
Let's start with this.
Defining what success means, Iknow, is a powerful topic for
you, so let's talk about why itis that we each need to decide
that for ourselves.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (03:17):
So what happened for me was about maybe
10 years ago now.
I went through a period of timewhere I realized I had checked
all the boxes.
I got past some pretty epicmilestones I went to Stanford
for grad school, I got married,I had three children, I started
(03:40):
two private practices.
Everything on paper lookedexactly how we would typically
define success.
Yet inside it didn't feel thatway and I felt like I was
languishing.
I was checking the boxes, I wasgoing through the motions, I
wasn't feeling lit up, eventhough I thought I had designed
(04:02):
my life the way I wanted it tobe.
And so one thing I quicklydiscovered during this period of
time was that the reason, thebiggest reason that I wasn't
feeling my best was because ofthe terms I was using to define
what success meant or whathappiness meant, or what life
should be or should look like orshould feel like.
(04:26):
And it wasn't until I started tochallenge those old beliefs
that I started to realize oh,there's so much freedom
available and so much happinessavailable to us when we stop
living the conditioned life, westop following what people tell
us to do.
You should go to school, thenyou should go to college, then
(04:47):
you should get a job, a good job, a secure job, then you should
get married and buy a house.
And we're told there's astepwise process and when you do
all those things you'll behappy and successful.
Yet so many women wake up oneday being like I did all the
things, I'm a high achiever, I'ma go-getter, I want to succeed.
Yet why am I not happy?
The missing pieces werefollowing the wrong roadmap.
(05:10):
So defining your own terms ofwhat success and happiness mean
to you are pivotal to youfeeling successful and happy.
Cheryl Fischer (05:18):
Yeah, it's such a good point and if I'm hearing
you correctly, it's not thatyou're saying I regret going to
grad school.
You're saying I want to make myown decision and do my thing
because I want to do it.
Is that fair?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (05:33):
There's no regret whatsoever, there's only
awareness that couldn't havecome earlier.
So that's one of the things Ithink women will say I wish I
thought of this earlier, I wishI knew this earlier.
But we have to remember we'rein situation.
We're not going to buildawareness until we're in
situations.
So once you're in a situationand you wake up to the reality
(05:56):
that what life feels like isn'thow life looks and there's a
discrepancy that we could healor up, level or change, there's
a discrepancy that we could healor up, level or change, that's
when it becomes ourresponsibility, then, to take
ownership over that and to makesome changes.
I'd be sitting here with regretif I was telling you 10, 20, 30
years ago I had this thoughtthat I wasn't following the
(06:19):
right path, and then I just keptfollowing it.
But when I realized, oh, I'mnot happy because I'm just
following a roadmap that's moreprescribed and not mine by
design, that's the answer, andso then I make decisions
appropriately at the time.
I'd be sitting here with regretif I hadn't.
Cheryl Fischer (06:37):
Yes, I love that explanation because regret is.
I don't want to take us liketoo far down the side path, but
regret is such a big deal,especially for women in their
50s, which is where I am.
We have a moment to sit andthink and we go oh why?
Did.
I do that thing 10 years ago,and if we get stuck in that it
(06:58):
becomes a problem.
Yeah.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (07:00):
What do you find for women in their 50s?
The biggest sources of regretare what are women regretting?
Cheryl Fischer (07:08):
A lot of times it's revolving around kids,
because at this point in lifeour kids are leaving, as they
should be.
That's healthy and good, andthat's also really hard and
emotional, and we're losingcontrol, if you will.
I don't know how much controlwe had even in high school ages,
(07:30):
but that feels like a lot.
And so there's.
I don't know why I didn't dothis.
Why are they not wanting to bearound me?
It just, I mean, could be amillion things related to that.
Maybe I made bad decisions whenthey were growing up, just
questioning, questioning,questioning.
And then the other thing is, Ithink, whether you've had kids
(07:51):
or not, when retirement startsto be a little bit closer and it
seems a little bit more realand it's not like 20 years down
the road, it's kind of like welook at our career path and go,
huh, like what'd I do that for?
I gotcha.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (08:11):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, I think it's a really itis an interesting conversation,
because the life that we want tolive is a life without regret.
We want to live a life thatfeels aligned with who we are
and what we want and, more thanthat, what feels meaningful to
us.
We want a life that reflectswhat we value, where we derive
(08:32):
meaning, what makes us trulyfulfilled, so we can be our best
for others as well.
So the ideal is that we'rechoosing to design lives on our
terms so that we can avoid thefuture regret that so many may
go through.
Cheryl Fischer (08:50):
Yeah, and to your point, if we're realizing
it now, then okay, let's shiftit now.
Like, don't worry about that,we didn't realize it before.
Right, correct, correct, okay,excellent, excellent framing of
the issue.
I also heard you say in there acouple of shoulds, and so I
think when we're talking aboutsuccess, that's probably always
(09:12):
going to come up, because to methe should is like what does I
don't know who I'm looking at,but what does the world say
would be success for a womanwith my education, or whatever,
whatever.
And that's, it's still a should, right?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (09:30):
It is, and the question that women ask
themselves too often is whatshould I be doing or what should
I do next?
What I believe is a morebeneficial, powerful question to
ask ourselves is what do I wantto be doing?
How do I want life to feel next?
(09:50):
And the shoulds really just getwoven in there because, again,
we're following theseconditioned roadmaps, assuming
there's a right way to gothrough life, and so when there
is in our minds a right way,then the question is the should.
What should I be doing?
There's a right way.
(10:10):
I need to get closer to thatpath.
But the question that's morepowerful and leads you to more
fulfillment is how do I wantlife to feel next and what do I
most want?
Cheryl Fischer (10:21):
And that's where we start taking into account
happiness in addition to justwhat is the definition of
success.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (10:31):
Right.
I mean in my personal andprofessional life, which are
woven deeply together.
Success doesn't exist if I'mnot happy.
I won't feel successful if I'mnot enjoying this, if I'm not
enjoying what I'm creating, howI'm living in my business, how
(10:51):
I'm supporting my clients, ifI'm not happy, that's not
success to me.
So they go hand in hand, and Ithink that's probably another
reason sometimes we feel a bitastray is that we separate those
definitions sometimes a littlebit too far, and so we're aiming
just for the big S instead ofseeing them as extensions of one
(11:16):
another.
Cheryl Fischer (11:17):
Yeah, I think what you're saying is a very
healthy way to look at it andthink about it, but I agree
there's often a disconnectbetween what is success and what
is happiness, and which oneshould I be going for and how
could they ever be together.
So do you, do you have anythoughts on kind of why that
happens or where that comes from, that disconnect?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (11:39):
Because, we are conditioned to follow this
path towards success.
That's why it's because thishas been the prescription Do
this, do that, get thismilestone, get to this level,
get to this achievement andthere you go.
That's what you need.
Success is what's going to leadyou to happiness, Right?
(12:04):
It's not true?
So we haven't been taught tovalue our own inner happiness as
much as we've been taught tovalue external success.
That's why there's such adisconnect.
But when you take the two termstogether and you say I want to
hold these together, I want bothprevalent in my life.
I want and this is the way Ilook at success.
I want what makes me happy tolead to success and success be
the byproduct of my fulfillmentand happiness Me following my
(12:28):
purpose, me leading with mystrengths, me living in line
with my values.
The byproduct gets to besuccess, Right, and that's not
the way we've been taught.
Cheryl Fischer (12:42):
You're right.
Success, I think, has beenprobably taught to most of us,
as, as you said, milestones orlabels or you know achievements
that you need to check off, andhappiness is like a touchy,
feely thing that you can do onthe weekend.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (13:00):
And there it is.
That's exactly why we wake upone day going this is as good as
it gets.
I did all the right things andthis is how I'm feeling.
This is what I'm waking up to,the Sunday scaries needing to
recover over the weekend from aweek that was brutal and caused
me to burn out.
We've got it wrong, and so whenwe start to really look at our
(13:26):
lives through this lens of ooh,the things that I seek outside
of myself get to be byproductsof what I do to create the inner
healing, inner peace, innerhappiness within me.
That's when it feels so muchmore empowering and exciting to
create your future, because whatwe realize is that the better
we feel inside with who we are,how we're living our lives, etc.
(13:49):
The more beauty, the moreabundance, the more gets to
appear in our lives as a resultof living that way.
Those things get to be theresults.
Cheryl Fischer (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely , absolutely, absolutely.
And it brings me to so, when wewere talking before, we liked
the idea of naming this episodePermission to Thrive, and I love
that phrase because there's somuch packed into that, because
everything you're just sayingit's crazy that maybe,
(14:23):
particularly as women, wewouldn't allow ourselves to
think that way or to appreciatethat we could be happy and
figure out how or I don't know,just not give ourselves
permission.
And so I'm not even sure whatmy question is.
Just tell us more about whathappens when we talk about this
(14:49):
permission to thrive idea andwhen women don't give themselves
that permission.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (15:28):
It's a big word in my world.
Permission is a foundationalapproach to what's next.
A lot of women will come intomy world and ask things like
what should I do next and I wantto be happier, and what should
the next decision be and what'sthe right path forward, and all
of that not realizing that theiranswers will come to them so
(15:51):
much more effortlessly, moreflowy, more naturally once they
consider just giving themselvespermission to dream, to feel
inspired, to feel creative, tofeel excited about what's
possible, without knowingexactly what that is.
And so permission to thrive,permission to be happy,
(16:12):
permission to be your best litup self has to start with what
you are even going to allowyourself to consider in front of
you what's happened in the past, what they've been taught, what
(16:35):
they have believed, whatthey've been shown, what people
are doing around them, insteadof taking these moments of
transition in life or moments ofgrowth or different chapters or
seasons in life to simply askthemselves what am I wanting,
what am I longing for, what am Iwishing for?
What do I want to create orhave, even Not even create, but
just have in my life that Idon't?
(16:56):
Those questions aren't beingasked because not enough women
are giving themselves permissionto think outside the box, and
it's quite literally that boxthat we've been raised in and
society has taken us throughthis path of there's a right way
and a wrong way.
That's what you need to know.
But the truth is there'ssociety's way and there's your
(17:19):
way, and one of those is goingto make you substantially
happier than the other.
Cheryl Fischer (17:25):
You know, as you were saying that, I was just
sort of realizing that.
I wonder if it's also becausemaybe deep down somewhere we're
thinking that if we're trying tobe happy then we're taking away
from someone else's happinessthat we care about.
(17:47):
It's like a zero sum game thing, like how can we be trying to
be happy?
We're supposed to be makingsure our families are happy.
I just wonder if we feel likewe're kind of taking away from
someone else sometimes too.
I don't know.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (18:01):
I'm sure We've got a lot of people
pleasing in us.
We've got a lot of nurturingtendencies within us.
We've got a lot of love to give.
However, we often don't knowthe best ways to optimize the
love that we have to give, thecaring that we have to offer,
the service that we can be toone another.
(18:21):
We think it's the endlessgiving of ourselves and our
energy, not realizing thathappiness isn't selfish.
I will tell you from firsthandmy own experience.
I'm a much better mother to mythree daughters when I am happy
(18:43):
in my life, with my life, withmy lifestyle, with my boundaries
, with my self-care, than whenI'm tired or depleted or not
setting those boundariesappropriately.
I'm a different mom.
So that's the thing that thereis a lot of concern about
happiness being selfish.
And I need to spend 10 hours aday at a spa to be happy, and
(19:06):
that's the picture women have ofhow they're going to be, these
thoughtless, careless women thatare so self-absorbed.
That's not it.
It's realizing that there is avery different you that exists
when you're well-fed, well-slept, well-cared for.
Who, by the way, no one else isdoing that for you, but you yes
.
Then there is the version ofyou who is not.
(19:28):
And so, looking at happiness andI strongly encourage my clients
and women in general to look athappiness as not a luxury, it's
a non-negotiable, it's abuilding block, it's
foundational.
This is what we are servingfrom this vessel myself, my
mental, my emotional and myphysical.
(19:48):
If those parts of us are nottended to, not nurtured, not
cared for, we will not beshowing up as our best selves
for other people.
And, to be honest, I think atthis point in my career I roll
my eyes a little bit and my headgoes to another excuse to not
focus on yourself.
(20:09):
And honestly, I think that themost the fear isn't so much that
we're going to truly becomethese selfish witches of humans
Right, I think the fear is that,more often than not, women
aren't in touch with what trulymakes them happy, and doing that
work is not appealing, notexciting and not in the comfort
(20:35):
zone that we primarily live in.
Cheryl Fischer (20:38):
Yeah, I think you've hit something, because we
can say, oh, maybe it's selfishto take care of ourselves and
not take care of other people,and that's not even what we're
saying.
Still, you can take care ofother people.
But that's the surface level.
I think you might have hit onsomething very interesting there
.
The deeper level and this iswhat I end up coaching people on
(20:59):
a lot is really deep, deep,deep in our heads.
What do we really think that wecould maybe do and what are we
willing to try, with maybe therisk that we won't like it or we
won't be able to do it as wellas we had hoped, or it won't
work out like?
We think that sometimes thosethings are really scary, and
(21:23):
maybe that is underlying a lotof this.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (21:26):
Could be.
There's a big fear of failing,and there's a big fear for a lot
of women of having chosen thewrong choice, and so that can be
a big factor in how we makedecisions.
But what I find is that youdon't even need to believe 100%
that you're capable, need tobelieve 100% that you're capable
(21:52):
, meaning you don't have tobelieve 100% that you can
absolutely achieve the thingthat you want to go for.
To do it, you need to believethat you can handle it.
If you don't get there, youneed to believe you can handle
it.
If it's uncomfortable, you needto believe it's worth trying,
it's worth fighting for, it'sworth it.
Comfortable, you need tobelieve it's worth trying, it's
worth fighting for it's worth it.
But you don't actually need,especially in the beginning, to
(22:14):
truly believe it's 100% possible, because this is another
barrier for women's growth andsuccess and happiness.
Is this idea that I should beable to see it 100% to be true?
I should be able to believethat it's mine already, and we
hear about this.
A lot in manifestation work is,you know, seeing it as yours
already, having it already, anda lot of women are like I can't
see it and I don't believe it,and so I'm not going to go for
(22:36):
it.
And so my positioning on thisis don't worry about whether or
not you believe it a hundredpercent yet.
Why would you?
Your brain hasn't contemplatedthis before.
It hasn't been there before.
There's no evidence potentiallyyet that you can achieve this
level of success or happiness orlifestyle that you crave, if
you're really honest withyourself.
But what you do need to believeis that you're willing to try
(22:59):
and that if you were to achieveit, it would be worth it, and
you're going to getuncomfortable and you're okay
with having your own back.
That's what you need to believe, and that's all you need to
believe.
Cheryl Fischer (23:09):
I love it.
I love it, and if you'relistening, you could maybe just
pause and rewind the last twominutes and listen to that again
.
I think it's worth it.
So it reminds me of a coachthat I once was talking to years
and years ago, who was sayingthat one thing that she asks her
clients sometimes to do isfigure out, okay, what would the
(23:31):
worst case scenario be, what'sthe worst thing that could
happen when you start this or gofor this or whatever?
And I was like, really Like,should we be focusing on the
worst thing?
But the point was, if thatworst thing happened, you'd be
okay.
The point was, if that worstthing happened, you'd be okay.
Right, like, how would youhandle it?
(23:52):
Let's talk about it, would yoube okay?
And 99% of the time, yes, Iwould be okay.
So then, all right, let's do it, we can figure it out.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (24:00):
That's right , and so many people don't look
over the cliff.
So I call the what ifs thecliff.
What if I fail?
What if it doesn't work?
What if I have to do this?
What if it goes this way?
And then I will say it's likeyou're standing at the end of a
cliff but you're not lookingover.
You're not looking to see ifit's a one inch drop or if it's
a one mile drop.
(24:20):
You're not looking at what's onthe other side of the what if
Answer question what if?
What answer it get to theconclusion that you're most
afraid of.
Let's see how far down is thatdrop?
It could be an inch, butbecause we're not looking over
the edge, you don't know, andyou're letting what your
interpretation of a what if?
(24:41):
You're letting thatinterpretation be your reasoning
for not trying, because thefeeling that's generated from a
question like what if?
Is fear, and so you're lettingfear make a decision.
Instead, what I encourage womento do is to look over the cliff.
What if?
What happens?
(25:02):
Fill in the blank, finish thesentence.
Look over the edge.
How significant of a drop isthat really?
Not how does it feel, butwhat's the reality around that
possibility?
And then what would happen.
So this is something that hasbeen such a game changer for my
clients is realizing thatthey're not looking over the
edge.
They're just paralyzed by awhat if?
(25:23):
Question.
Right, but if we really letourselves be paralyzed by what
if we'd never leave the house?
What if I get hit by a car?
What if I run over somebody?
What if I never get back?
We wouldn't leave.
If we just let everything be awhat if you know?
Answer your own questions, lookat the likelihood of any of
those things actually happening,create a reality around that
(25:45):
possibility, but don't let fearmake your decisions for you
without letting yourself feelmore informed by looking over
that edge.
Cheryl Fischer (25:54):
Such a great point and, and I would add to
that, I can see that this issomething I mean you're a coach,
I'm a coach that is worthwhilefor someone to do with a coach,
because when we start down thewhat if?
Path, then a coach is going tohelp us to maybe not get so
stuck in that that we're likenow everything is terrible and
(26:16):
I'm telling myself I'm an idiotall the time, which is the way
the brain sometimes goes.
But, yeah, very powerful torealize that we can handle what
comes and it's going to be okay,agreed, Okay.
So now that I'm on this topic,let me remember to ask you how
can people find you if they wantto learn more about what they,
(26:39):
what you're doing?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (26:40):
Sure, so I'm mostly on Instagram, although
most all platforms have a littlebit of me these days, but you
can find me on Instagram at DrWendy O'Connor, and feel free to
come introduce yourself, say hi, ask me anything.
I love to meet new people, sothat's a great way for us to
connect and, of course, if I canever support any of your
listeners, I'd be happy to, sothat's the best way for me.
Cheryl Fischer (27:02):
Yeah, perfect, and I'll make sure that's in the
show notes.
So I find that when I'mlistening to a podcast, I am
thinking, wow, good point, wow,good point, wow, good point.
And then I don't necessarilyremember it all because I was
doing the laundry or driving thecar or whatever at the same
time.
So I always want to ask, as wereach toward the end here, what
(27:25):
is the one thing that somebodywho's listening you really want
them to remember?
This thing and take it awayfrom this discussion?
I might call it the OMG, like Ihave to remember this one thing
.
What would you say that is?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (27:41):
Remember to give yourself permission to
redesign your life Whenever youhear the the nudge.
To redesign your life.
Whenever you hear the nudge,whenever you feel like is this
really it?
Whenever you wonder how can Ilive happier, answer those
questions.
Let yourself not be intimidatedby the unknown or all that is
(28:12):
possible for you.
Let yourself instead use thisblank canvas of your next
chapter as an opportunity totruly script it the way you want
to, not the way you've beenconditioned to.
Cheryl Fischer (28:18):
I love it and I love that you said when you hear
or feel that nudge, becausethat's our intuition, which
usually is right on the moneyfor sure, and always good to
listen to that.
Absolutely Well, Wendy.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's been a great discussion.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (28:37):
I've loved it.
I feel like we could talk forhours.
There's so much fun here todiscuss, so I really appreciate
you having me on today.
Cheryl Fischer (28:45):
So I really appreciate you having me on
today.
Wendy and I are continuing theconversation over on Patreon
specifically with some tips sheis giving for that emptiness
phase that you heard me talkingabout.
That is one of the sort ofemotional, I'm not sure what to
do struggle periods.
So make sure that you havejoined me in the Patreon midlife
(29:08):
pivot community, patreoncomslash mind your midlife and you
will grab that as well.
Hope to see you there and Ilove that.
Wendy's OMG was number one.
Notice the nudge that'sintuition, gut feeling so
powerful.
And then give yourselfpermission to investigate.
(29:30):
Let's look forward, as opposedto always turning back forward
to say, okay, now I see, now Iknow, now I recognize, or maybe
even, as you heard ShannonRussell some episodes ago when
we talked about your second act,I'll make sure that's in the
(29:50):
show notes.
Also, as you heard her say,maybe you're just a different
person now than you were whenyou made a different choice.
That's okay.
Let's go forward.
Give yourself permission tofollow that and see where the
path goes.
Fantastic way to leave thisepisode.
If you're listening on Applepodcasts, it would be so amazing
(30:16):
if any episodes have beenmeaningful to you, if you would
go and leave a five-star ratingand write a quick review.
It helps so much to get thepodcast out to the people who
will really appreciate it andbenefit from it.
So thank you for that and, inthe meantime, make sure you
(30:38):
remember to slow down, maybetake a breath, notice what's
around you, what's going on inyour head, and let's create
something amazing.
If I say the phrase permission to thrive to
you, I wonder what comes to mind, because when I work with
clients on mindset, we'redigging into what's all that
stuff we're telling ourselvesinside our head.
A lot of it tends to bemessages that absolutely are not
(00:25):
permission to thrive.
It's self-criticism, it'sworries, it's what ifs, and
that's what we want to talkabout today.
You get permission to thrive.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind your Midlife,your go-to resource for
confidence and success.
(00:45):
One thought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and oh my
goodness powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
(01:08):
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind your Midlifepodcast.
Our brains are wired to keep ussafe.
I feel like I've said thatsentence so many times.
I should have a dollar forevery time I say that sentence.
Our brains are wired to keep ussafe, and that's a good thing,
(01:29):
and yet in our everyday lives,we're not facing danger
typically as if we were runningfrom a wild animal or something
like that.
We've learned not to touch thehot stove and to look both ways
when crossing the street, andwe're handling those dangers,
but we're not facing overarchingdanger, and yet our brains and
(01:51):
our nervous systems are wired tokeep us safe from dangers like
that.
So sometimes we do what maybeI'm going to call an over safety
.
We make ourselves smaller tokeep even more safe from things
that feel like a challenge.
(02:12):
And so today, my guest, dr WendyO'Connor, and I are going to be
talking about giving yourselfpermission to thrive, and we
have to then also talk aboutwhat in the world does that mean
?
What does success mean?
What does happiness mean?
Are they the same thing?
How do you decide?
(02:32):
Is it what somebody told you todo, is it not?
That's a lot of stuff.
So Dr Wendy O'Connor is joiningme.
As I said, she is a Stanfordtrained positive psychologist
and success coach.
She helps women exactly as wewould love to do design
meaningful, intentional andfulfilling lives.
(02:54):
So let's chat.
Welcome, wendy.
Thanks for joining me.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (02:58):
I'm excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Cheryl Fischer (03:01):
Let's start with this.
Defining what success means, Iknow, is a powerful topic for
you, so let's talk about why itis that we each need to decide
that for ourselves.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (03:17):
So what happened for me was about maybe
10 years ago now.
I went through a period of timewhere I realized I had checked
all the boxes.
I got past some pretty epicmilestones I went to Stanford
for grad school, I got married,I had three children, I started
(03:40):
two private practices.
Everything on paper lookedexactly how we would typically
define success.
Yet inside it didn't feel thatway and I felt like I was
languishing.
I was checking the boxes, I wasgoing through the motions, I
wasn't feeling lit up, eventhough I thought I had designed
(04:02):
my life the way I wanted it tobe.
And so one thing I quicklydiscovered during this period of
time was that the reason, thebiggest reason that I wasn't
feeling my best was because ofthe terms I was using to define
what success meant or whathappiness meant, or what life
should be or should look like orshould feel like.
(04:26):
And it wasn't until I started tochallenge those old beliefs
that I started to realize oh,there's so much freedom
available and so much happinessavailable to us when we stop
living the conditioned life, westop following what people tell
us to do.
You should go to school, thenyou should go to college, then
(04:47):
you should get a job, a good job, a secure job, then you should
get married and buy a house.
And we're told there's astepwise process and when you do
all those things you'll behappy and successful.
Yet so many women wake up oneday being like I did all the
things, I'm a high achiever, I'ma go-getter, I want to succeed.
Yet why am I not happy?
The missing pieces werefollowing the wrong roadmap.
(05:10):
So defining your own terms ofwhat success and happiness mean
to you are pivotal to youfeeling successful and happy.
Cheryl Fischer (05:18):
Yeah, it's such a good point and if I'm hearing
you correctly, it's not thatyou're saying I regret going to
grad school.
You're saying I want to make myown decision and do my thing
because I want to do it.
Is that fair?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (05:33):
There's no regret whatsoever, there's only
awareness that couldn't havecome earlier.
So that's one of the things Ithink women will say I wish I
thought of this earlier, I wishI knew this earlier.
But we have to remember we'rein situation.
We're not going to buildawareness until we're in
situations.
So once you're in a situationand you wake up to the reality
(05:56):
that what life feels like isn'thow life looks and there's a
discrepancy that we could healor up, level or change, there's
a discrepancy that we could healor up, level or change, that's
when it becomes ourresponsibility, then, to take
ownership over that and to makesome changes.
I'd be sitting here with regretif I was telling you 10, 20, 30
years ago I had this thoughtthat I wasn't following the
(06:19):
right path, and then I just keptfollowing it.
But when I realized, oh, I'mnot happy because I'm just
following a roadmap that's moreprescribed and not mine by
design, that's the answer, andso then I make decisions
appropriately at the time.
I'd be sitting here with regretif I hadn't.
Cheryl Fischer (06:37):
Yes, I love that explanation because regret is.
I don't want to take us liketoo far down the side path, but
regret is such a big deal,especially for women in their
50s, which is where I am.
We have a moment to sit andthink and we go oh why?
Did.
I do that thing 10 years ago,and if we get stuck in that it
(06:58):
becomes a problem.
Yeah.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (07:00):
What do you find for women in their 50s?
The biggest sources of regretare what are women regretting?
Cheryl Fischer (07:08):
A lot of times it's revolving around kids,
because at this point in lifeour kids are leaving, as they
should be.
That's healthy and good, andthat's also really hard and
emotional, and we're losingcontrol, if you will.
I don't know how much controlwe had even in high school ages,
(07:30):
but that feels like a lot.
And so there's.
I don't know why I didn't dothis.
Why are they not wanting to bearound me?
It just, I mean, could be amillion things related to that.
Maybe I made bad decisions whenthey were growing up, just
questioning, questioning,questioning.
And then the other thing is, Ithink, whether you've had kids
(07:51):
or not, when retirement startsto be a little bit closer and it
seems a little bit more realand it's not like 20 years down
the road, it's kind of like welook at our career path and go,
huh, like what'd I do that for?
I gotcha.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (08:11):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, I think it's a really itis an interesting conversation,
because the life that we want tolive is a life without regret.
We want to live a life thatfeels aligned with who we are
and what we want and, more thanthat, what feels meaningful to
us.
We want a life that reflectswhat we value, where we derive
(08:32):
meaning, what makes us trulyfulfilled, so we can be our best
for others as well.
So the ideal is that we'rechoosing to design lives on our
terms so that we can avoid thefuture regret that so many may
go through.
Cheryl Fischer (08:50):
Yeah, and to your point, if we're realizing
it now, then okay, let's shiftit now.
Like, don't worry about that,we didn't realize it before.
Right, correct, correct, okay,excellent, excellent framing of
the issue.
I also heard you say in there acouple of shoulds, and so I
think when we're talking aboutsuccess, that's probably always
(09:12):
going to come up, because to methe should is like what does I
don't know who I'm looking at,but what does the world say
would be success for a womanwith my education, or whatever,
whatever.
And that's, it's still a should, right?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (09:30):
It is, and the question that women ask
themselves too often is whatshould I be doing or what should
I do next?
What I believe is a morebeneficial, powerful question to
ask ourselves is what do I wantto be doing?
How do I want life to feel next?
(09:50):
And the shoulds really just getwoven in there because, again,
we're following theseconditioned roadmaps, assuming
there's a right way to gothrough life, and so when there
is in our minds a right way,then the question is the should.
What should I be doing?
There's a right way.
(10:10):
I need to get closer to thatpath.
But the question that's morepowerful and leads you to more
fulfillment is how do I wantlife to feel next and what do I
most want?
Cheryl Fischer (10:21):
And that's where we start taking into account
happiness in addition to justwhat is the definition of
success.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (10:31):
Right.
I mean in my personal andprofessional life, which are
woven deeply together.
Success doesn't exist if I'mnot happy.
I won't feel successful if I'mnot enjoying this, if I'm not
enjoying what I'm creating, howI'm living in my business, how
(10:51):
I'm supporting my clients, ifI'm not happy, that's not
success to me.
So they go hand in hand, and Ithink that's probably another
reason sometimes we feel a bitastray is that we separate those
definitions sometimes a littlebit too far, and so we're aiming
just for the big S instead ofseeing them as extensions of one
(11:16):
another.
Cheryl Fischer (11:17):
Yeah, I think what you're saying is a very
healthy way to look at it andthink about it, but I agree
there's often a disconnectbetween what is success and what
is happiness, and which oneshould I be going for and how
could they ever be together.
So do you, do you have anythoughts on kind of why that
happens or where that comes from, that disconnect?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (11:39):
Because, we are conditioned to follow this
path towards success.
That's why it's because thishas been the prescription Do
this, do that, get thismilestone, get to this level,
get to this achievement andthere you go.
That's what you need.
Success is what's going to leadyou to happiness, Right?
(12:04):
It's not true?
So we haven't been taught tovalue our own inner happiness as
much as we've been taught tovalue external success.
That's why there's such adisconnect.
But when you take the two termstogether and you say I want to
hold these together, I want bothprevalent in my life.
I want and this is the way Ilook at success.
I want what makes me happy tolead to success and success be
the byproduct of my fulfillmentand happiness Me following my
(12:28):
purpose, me leading with mystrengths, me living in line
with my values.
The byproduct gets to besuccess, Right, and that's not
the way we've been taught.
Cheryl Fischer (12:42):
You're right.
Success, I think, has beenprobably taught to most of us,
as, as you said, milestones orlabels or you know achievements
that you need to check off, andhappiness is like a touchy,
feely thing that you can do onthe weekend.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (13:00):
And there it is.
That's exactly why we wake upone day going this is as good as
it gets.
I did all the right things andthis is how I'm feeling.
This is what I'm waking up to,the Sunday scaries needing to
recover over the weekend from aweek that was brutal and caused
me to burn out.
We've got it wrong, and so whenwe start to really look at our
(13:26):
lives through this lens of ooh,the things that I seek outside
of myself get to be byproductsof what I do to create the inner
healing, inner peace, innerhappiness within me.
That's when it feels so muchmore empowering and exciting to
create your future, because whatwe realize is that the better
we feel inside with who we are,how we're living our lives, etc.
(13:49):
The more beauty, the moreabundance, the more gets to
appear in our lives as a resultof living that way.
Those things get to be theresults.
Cheryl Fischer (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely , absolutely, absolutely.
And it brings me to so, when wewere talking before, we liked
the idea of naming this episodePermission to Thrive, and I love
that phrase because there's somuch packed into that, because
everything you're just sayingit's crazy that maybe,
(14:23):
particularly as women, wewouldn't allow ourselves to
think that way or to appreciatethat we could be happy and
figure out how or I don't know,just not give ourselves
permission.
And so I'm not even sure whatmy question is.
Just tell us more about whathappens when we talk about this
(14:49):
permission to thrive idea andwhen women don't give themselves
that permission.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (15:28):
It's a big word in my world.
Permission is a foundationalapproach to what's next.
A lot of women will come intomy world and ask things like
what should I do next and I wantto be happier, and what should
the next decision be and what'sthe right path forward, and all
of that not realizing that theiranswers will come to them so
(15:51):
much more effortlessly, moreflowy, more naturally once they
consider just giving themselvespermission to dream, to feel
inspired, to feel creative, tofeel excited about what's
possible, without knowingexactly what that is.
And so permission to thrive,permission to be happy,
(16:12):
permission to be your best litup self has to start with what
you are even going to allowyourself to consider in front of
you what's happened in the past, what they've been taught, what
(16:35):
they have believed, whatthey've been shown, what people
are doing around them, insteadof taking these moments of
transition in life or moments ofgrowth or different chapters or
seasons in life to simply askthemselves what am I wanting,
what am I longing for, what am Iwishing for?
What do I want to create orhave, even Not even create, but
just have in my life that Idon't?
(16:56):
Those questions aren't beingasked because not enough women
are giving themselves permissionto think outside the box, and
it's quite literally that boxthat we've been raised in and
society has taken us throughthis path of there's a right way
and a wrong way.
That's what you need to know.
But the truth is there'ssociety's way and there's your
(17:19):
way, and one of those is goingto make you substantially
happier than the other.
Cheryl Fischer (17:25):
You know, as you were saying that, I was just
sort of realizing that.
I wonder if it's also becausemaybe deep down somewhere we're
thinking that if we're trying tobe happy then we're taking away
from someone else's happinessthat we care about.
(17:47):
It's like a zero sum game thing, like how can we be trying to
be happy?
We're supposed to be makingsure our families are happy.
I just wonder if we feel likewe're kind of taking away from
someone else sometimes too.
I don't know.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (18:01):
I'm sure We've got a lot of people
pleasing in us.
We've got a lot of nurturingtendencies within us.
We've got a lot of love to give.
However, we often don't knowthe best ways to optimize the
love that we have to give, thecaring that we have to offer,
the service that we can be toone another.
(18:21):
We think it's the endlessgiving of ourselves and our
energy, not realizing thathappiness isn't selfish.
I will tell you from firsthandmy own experience.
I'm a much better mother to mythree daughters when I am happy
(18:43):
in my life, with my life, withmy lifestyle, with my boundaries
, with my self-care, than whenI'm tired or depleted or not
setting those boundariesappropriately.
I'm a different mom.
So that's the thing that thereis a lot of concern about
happiness being selfish.
And I need to spend 10 hours aday at a spa to be happy, and
(19:06):
that's the picture women have ofhow they're going to be, these
thoughtless, careless women thatare so self-absorbed.
That's not it.
It's realizing that there is avery different you that exists
when you're well-fed, well-slept, well-cared for.
Who, by the way, no one else isdoing that for you, but you yes
.
Then there is the version ofyou who is not.
(19:28):
And so, looking at happiness andI strongly encourage my clients
and women in general to look athappiness as not a luxury, it's
a non-negotiable, it's abuilding block, it's
foundational.
This is what we are servingfrom this vessel myself, my
mental, my emotional and myphysical.
(19:48):
If those parts of us are nottended to, not nurtured, not
cared for, we will not beshowing up as our best selves
for other people.
And, to be honest, I think atthis point in my career I roll
my eyes a little bit and my headgoes to another excuse to not
focus on yourself.
(20:09):
And honestly, I think that themost the fear isn't so much that
we're going to truly becomethese selfish witches of humans
Right, I think the fear is that,more often than not, women
aren't in touch with what trulymakes them happy, and doing that
work is not appealing, notexciting and not in the comfort
(20:35):
zone that we primarily live in.
Cheryl Fischer (20:38):
Yeah, I think you've hit something, because we
can say, oh, maybe it's selfishto take care of ourselves and
not take care of other people,and that's not even what we're
saying.
Still, you can take care ofother people.
But that's the surface level.
I think you might have hit onsomething very interesting there
.
The deeper level and this iswhat I end up coaching people on
(20:59):
a lot is really deep, deep,deep in our heads.
What do we really think that wecould maybe do and what are we
willing to try, with maybe therisk that we won't like it or we
won't be able to do it as wellas we had hoped, or it won't
work out like?
We think that sometimes thosethings are really scary, and
(21:23):
maybe that is underlying a lotof this.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (21:26):
Could be.
There's a big fear of failing,and there's a big fear for a lot
of women of having chosen thewrong choice, and so that can be
a big factor in how we makedecisions.
But what I find is that youdon't even need to believe 100%
that you're capable, need tobelieve 100% that you're capable
(21:52):
, meaning you don't have tobelieve 100% that you can
absolutely achieve the thingthat you want to go for.
To do it, you need to believethat you can handle it.
If you don't get there, youneed to believe you can handle
it.
If it's uncomfortable, you needto believe it's worth trying,
it's worth fighting for, it'sworth it.
Comfortable, you need tobelieve it's worth trying, it's
worth fighting for it's worth it.
But you don't actually need,especially in the beginning, to
(22:14):
truly believe it's 100% possible, because this is another
barrier for women's growth andsuccess and happiness.
Is this idea that I should beable to see it 100% to be true?
I should be able to believethat it's mine already, and we
hear about this.
A lot in manifestation work is,you know, seeing it as yours
already, having it already, anda lot of women are like I can't
see it and I don't believe it,and so I'm not going to go for
(22:36):
it.
And so my positioning on thisis don't worry about whether or
not you believe it a hundredpercent yet.
Why would you?
Your brain hasn't contemplatedthis before.
It hasn't been there before.
There's no evidence potentiallyyet that you can achieve this
level of success or happiness orlifestyle that you crave, if
you're really honest withyourself.
But what you do need to believeis that you're willing to try
(22:59):
and that if you were to achieveit, it would be worth it, and
you're going to getuncomfortable and you're okay
with having your own back.
That's what you need to believe, and that's all you need to
believe.
Cheryl Fischer (23:09):
I love it.
I love it, and if you'relistening, you could maybe just
pause and rewind the last twominutes and listen to that again
.
I think it's worth it.
So it reminds me of a coachthat I once was talking to years
and years ago, who was sayingthat one thing that she asks her
clients sometimes to do isfigure out, okay, what would the
(23:31):
worst case scenario be, what'sthe worst thing that could
happen when you start this or gofor this or whatever?
And I was like, really Like,should we be focusing on the
worst thing?
But the point was, if thatworst thing happened, you'd be
okay.
The point was, if that worstthing happened, you'd be okay.
Right, like, how would youhandle it?
(23:52):
Let's talk about it, would yoube okay?
And 99% of the time, yes, Iwould be okay.
So then, all right, let's do it, we can figure it out.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (24:00):
That's right , and so many people don't look
over the cliff.
So I call the what ifs thecliff.
What if I fail?
What if it doesn't work?
What if I have to do this?
What if it goes this way?
And then I will say it's likeyou're standing at the end of a
cliff but you're not lookingover.
You're not looking to see ifit's a one inch drop or if it's
a one mile drop.
(24:20):
You're not looking at what's onthe other side of the what if
Answer question what if?
What answer it get to theconclusion that you're most
afraid of.
Let's see how far down is thatdrop?
It could be an inch, butbecause we're not looking over
the edge, you don't know, andyou're letting what your
interpretation of a what if?
(24:41):
You're letting thatinterpretation be your reasoning
for not trying, because thefeeling that's generated from a
question like what if?
Is fear, and so you're lettingfear make a decision.
Instead, what I encourage womento do is to look over the cliff.
What if?
What happens?
(25:02):
Fill in the blank, finish thesentence.
Look over the edge.
How significant of a drop isthat really?
Not how does it feel, butwhat's the reality around that
possibility?
And then what would happen.
So this is something that hasbeen such a game changer for my
clients is realizing thatthey're not looking over the
edge.
They're just paralyzed by awhat if?
(25:23):
Question.
Right, but if we really letourselves be paralyzed by what
if we'd never leave the house?
What if I get hit by a car?
What if I run over somebody?
What if I never get back?
We wouldn't leave.
If we just let everything be awhat if you know?
Answer your own questions, lookat the likelihood of any of
those things actually happening,create a reality around that
(25:45):
possibility, but don't let fearmake your decisions for you
without letting yourself feelmore informed by looking over
that edge.
Cheryl Fischer (25:54):
Such a great point and, and I would add to
that, I can see that this issomething I mean you're a coach,
I'm a coach that is worthwhilefor someone to do with a coach,
because when we start down thewhat if?
Path, then a coach is going tohelp us to maybe not get so
stuck in that that we're likenow everything is terrible and
(26:16):
I'm telling myself I'm an idiotall the time, which is the way
the brain sometimes goes.
But, yeah, very powerful torealize that we can handle what
comes and it's going to be okay,agreed, Okay.
So now that I'm on this topic,let me remember to ask you how
can people find you if they wantto learn more about what they,
(26:39):
what you're doing?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (26:40):
Sure, so I'm mostly on Instagram, although
most all platforms have a littlebit of me these days, but you
can find me on Instagram at DrWendy O'Connor, and feel free to
come introduce yourself, say hi, ask me anything.
I love to meet new people, sothat's a great way for us to
connect and, of course, if I canever support any of your
listeners, I'd be happy to, sothat's the best way for me.
Cheryl Fischer (27:02):
Yeah, perfect, and I'll make sure that's in the
show notes.
So I find that when I'mlistening to a podcast, I am
thinking, wow, good point, wow,good point, wow, good point.
And then I don't necessarilyremember it all because I was
doing the laundry or driving thecar or whatever at the same
time.
So I always want to ask, as wereach toward the end here, what
(27:25):
is the one thing that somebodywho's listening you really want
them to remember?
This thing and take it awayfrom this discussion?
I might call it the OMG, like Ihave to remember this one thing
.
What would you say that is?
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (27:41):
Remember to give yourself permission to
redesign your life Whenever youhear the the nudge.
To redesign your life.
Whenever you hear the nudge,whenever you feel like is this
really it?
Whenever you wonder how can Ilive happier, answer those
questions.
Let yourself not be intimidatedby the unknown or all that is
(28:12):
possible for you.
Let yourself instead use thisblank canvas of your next
chapter as an opportunity totruly script it the way you want
to, not the way you've beenconditioned to.
Cheryl Fischer (28:18):
I love it and I love that you said when you hear
or feel that nudge, becausethat's our intuition, which
usually is right on the moneyfor sure, and always good to
listen to that.
Absolutely Well, Wendy.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's been a great discussion.
Dr. Wendy O'Connor (28:37):
I've loved it.
I feel like we could talk forhours.
There's so much fun here todiscuss, so I really appreciate
you having me on today.
Cheryl Fischer (28:45):
So I really appreciate you having me on
today.
Wendy and I are continuing theconversation over on Patreon
specifically with some tips sheis giving for that emptiness
phase that you heard me talkingabout.
That is one of the sort ofemotional, I'm not sure what to
do struggle periods.
So make sure that you havejoined me in the Patreon midlife
(29:08):
pivot community, patreoncomslash mind your midlife and you
will grab that as well.
Hope to see you there and Ilove that.
Wendy's OMG was number one.
Notice the nudge that'sintuition, gut feeling so
powerful.
And then give yourselfpermission to investigate.
(29:30):
Let's look forward, as opposedto always turning back forward
to say, okay, now I see, now Iknow, now I recognize, or maybe
even, as you heard ShannonRussell some episodes ago when
we talked about your second act,I'll make sure that's in the
(29:50):
show notes.
Also, as you heard her say,maybe you're just a different
person now than you were whenyou made a different choice.
That's okay.
Let's go forward.
Give yourself permission tofollow that and see where the
path goes.
Fantastic way to leave thisepisode.
If you're listening on Applepodcasts, it would be so amazing
(30:16):
if any episodes have beenmeaningful to you, if you would
go and leave a five-star ratingand write a quick review.
It helps so much to get thepodcast out to the people who
will really appreciate it andbenefit from it.
So thank you for that and, inthe meantime, make sure you
(30:38):
remember to slow down, maybetake a breath, notice what's
around you, what's going on inyour head, and let's create
something amazing.
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