November 14, 2025 • 35 mins
Ever feel like you’ve been doing all the right things at work—but somehow, you’re still not being seen? You’re showing up, doing great work, but the next opportunity just isn’t coming? You’re not imagining it—and you’re not alone.
In this powerful episode of Mind Your Midlife, I sit down with Mary Tribble of the Wake Women Podcast and Tiffany Tate, CEO of Career Maven Consulting, to talk about leadership, visibility, and confidence for midlife women who want to grow in their careers. We explore how to move past the “invisible ceiling,” why kindness and authenticity matter in leadership, and what it really takes to be seen, heard, and valued in your work life.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:
✔ What the “invisible ceiling” is and how it quietly holds back midlife women at work
✔ Why being visible—and not just good at your job—is the key to career advancement
✔ How to lead from where you are, even without a big title
✔ The truth about kindness in leadership (and why it’s not weakness)
✔ How to find support and community when leadership feels lonely
🎯 OMG Moment: You don’t need a fancy title to lead—you just need to start where you are and make your work visible.
Take Action
Ask yourself: Who in my organization knows about the great work I do? If it’s just your boss, it’s time to expand that circle. Build relationships sideways and diagonally—connect with peers, mentors, and leaders who can help amplify your visibility.
Connect with Mary on Instagram.
Connect with Tiffany and Career Maven Consulting on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Why This Episode Matters
Midlife women bring wisdom, experience, and emotional intelligence to the workplace—but too often, we're overlooked. This episode is a call to step into your leadership mindset, advocate for yourself, and create opportunities instead of waiting for them to appear.
🎧 Hit follow now and join me next week as we talk about empty nesting—and what happens when your role at home starts to shift just as your work life does, too.
Subscribe to bonus episodes at cherylpfischer.com/bonusepisodes.
🌸 Liked this episode? Share it with fellow Gen X women navigating hormone balance, an empty nest, and/or self-confidence!
🫶 Love this show? Leave a review to help more women over 50 find us.
💡Want menopause support, mindset shifts, or support with midlife transitions?
- Build a mindset for success with the private bonus episodes!
- Book a free Mindset Coaching / Intro Call: cherylpfischer.com/coaching
Let’s talk midlife body positivity, self-talk, and redefining aging for women — without the “midlife crisis” narrative. Every week I'm adding new success strategies for midlife women.
Connect with Cheryl, Midlife Coach: Instagram | LinkedIn | Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cheryl Fischer (00:00):
If you've ever gotten frustrated that in your
professional environment, itfeels like people don't see you.
It feels like they don'tappreciate you.
It feels like what are youstill doing there?
Especially when we hit like 50sand 60s, right?
Then you are gonna enjoytoday's episode because we're
(00:20):
going to make that make senseand hopefully give you some tips
that will really help.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind Your Midlife,your go-to resource for
confidence and success, onethought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
(00:41):
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and, oh my
goodness, powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind Your MidlifePodcast.
(01:03):
Today's episode is somethingvery cool and a little bit
different.
And I'm so excited to welcometwo guests to the podcast.
So Mary Tribble is joining mefrom the Wake Women podcast, and
we are jointly creating this.
(01:23):
So you will see our episode alittle bit different, but same
guests, same conversation overon Wake Women.
Make sure to check it out.
And then our guest today isTiffany Tate.
So Tiffany is a speaker and acareer and leadership expert,
and she's the founder and CEO ofCareer Maven Consulting.
(01:46):
So she is here to help usunderstand leadership and give
us that kind of mid-career.
What am I going to do now andhow am I going to be connected?
Advice.
Now, Mary led a Charlotte-basedmarketing firm for 25 years,
and she and I are both WakeForest University graduates.
(02:10):
So she returned to her almamater about 10 years ago to lead
the alumni engagement team.
And that is how she and Iconnected, and that is where the
Wake Women podcast came from.
So I am excited that the threeof us can have this
conversation.
Mary Tribble (02:28):
I imagine that MidCareer for a lot of us kind
of becomes or became a place ofstuckness, right?
Is that especially when you getinto, say, a corporate world or
any kind of organization thathas a hierarchy to it and
somehow seems mysterious as tohow it works.
And I know when I came to workat um at Wake Force University,
(02:50):
I came to work in universityadvancement.
I had never worked in highereducation before.
Tiffany, I'm sure it showed.
Because I was learning frompeople like you who were
teaching me kind of how how thestructure, I think higher
education is particularlyunique.
But I also, you know, had a lotof exposure with corporations.
And so there's an place ofbeing stuck, I think, that
(03:14):
people find themselves in indifferent points in their
career.
And um, and there's somethingthat Tiffany, you call the
invisible ceiling for mid-careerprofessionals.
Let's jump off on that as interms of a topic.
I I want to hear more what youmean about that and how you help
people navigate around it.
Tiffany Tate (03:34):
Yeah, so um, by definition, I also want to name
that sometimes a mid-career andmidlife get um interchangeably.
Um, in our space, when I saymid-career, you have been a
working professional for atleast 10 years.
Somewhere between 10, 15, maybe20 years you've been in the
workforce.
Um, and so it's more about timeuh clocked than time maybe on
(04:00):
the planet.
Um I just want to name that.
Uh that said, when when I'mtalking about invisible ceiling,
um, you know, I think whenyou're talking about women
specifically at work, we'reprobably all familiar with the
glass ceiling where you justwork really hard and then you
hit this sort of um this rungwhere you can't persist if you
(04:22):
don't have adequate sponsorship.
And there's a lot of researcharound the um glass ceiling for
women.
The invisible ceiling is notgender specific and it really
speaks to people who have beenworking for a while, they've
been doing good work, maybethey've gotten promoted, um,
they're getting, you know,positive feedback, but they
can't seem to like push to thenext level.
(04:43):
They may or may not beinterested in being executive
level, but they just want togrow in their career, take on
more responsibility.
Maybe they want to lead peopleor lead more people, but they're
not really clear on how to dothat.
Um, and so they may not begetting cues as to how to
facilitate what happens next.
And so often mid-career people,which makes up the majority of
(05:05):
the workforce, right?
Like there's only a handful ofpeople in the C-suite.
Right.
And then there's a lot ofpeople, entry-level, first job,
interns, but everyone else issort of in the middle of the row
at work.
And it can get a little diceybecause you might be taking on a
lot of responsibility withoutrecognition or additional
reward.
And so when we are talkingabout the invisible ceiling,
(05:26):
we're really talking about howto help professionals figure out
okay, what do I want my worklife to look and feel like?
How do I develop therelationships so that my work is
more visible so I can go afterhigher earning or higher levels
of responsibility, uh, whetherit's inside my organization or
at a new company?
Because it's just, it's justsort of murky.
Like you're like, oh, I'm doinga good job, but I don't really
(05:47):
know how to navigate whathappens next.
Cheryl Fischer (05:49):
And so part of Go ahead, Cyril.
I was just gonna say that makesme curious.
Do you find that people whenthey're saying I don't know how
to figure out what happens next?
Do they kind of feel like itshould happen without them
having to take action?
Do they do they feel like thepath is just gonna go forward
(06:12):
and then the shock is that itdoesn't?
Is that kind of what you see?
Tiffany Tate (06:16):
Yes.
Uh I think, you know, for it'sironic because some of the same
challenges that mid-careerprofessionals face are similar
to early career.
Um, I know I experienced thiswhen I finished at Wake.
I thought, well, I've workedhard and I did all the things on
paper that you're supposed todo.
So clearly a job should justappear.
(06:36):
Um, and then when you get intosaid job, people should just
know you work hard and youdeliver.
So, like the next thing shouldhappen, but that's not really
how work works.
And so um, unfortunately, manypeople who um have always
operated on kind of a syllabusparadigm where it's really clear
um what activities you'resupposed to complete and the
(06:59):
grades should come for that.
That's not really how workworks.
And you could be doing reallywell at whatever your technical
expertise is, um, but to grow inyour career requires um
visibility, uh sponsorship.
People have to advocate foryou.
Even some of the skills thatyou need to be successful in
your work as you grow are notkind of the hard-coded things
(07:22):
you learn in a classroom or umin a quick hit training.
It takes time and constantfeedback loops.
And people unfortunately don'talways receive that.
And so they could hit a walland not really understand why,
and not have someone above themcoaching them for the
performance piece, which is awhole other can of worms we
(07:42):
could talk about.
Mary Tribble (07:43):
What about um also when I've observed this in my
workplaces when somebody'sactually doing good work, but
they kinda they have a bossthat's in the way, right?
I mean, meaning like a bossthat's not advocating for them.
And um and and and theinformation that the superior
(08:04):
seems to be working on is not isnot really telling the whole
story.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I've seen like I've seensuperiors kind of seem to like
take take pet, you know, peoplethat they that they really want
to advocate and employ, maybethey look more like them, or
maybe they went to the sameschool they went to, or
whatever, and they tend toelevate one person over another.
(08:25):
How do you navigate aroundthat?
And either one of you cananswer that.
Cheryl Fischer (08:30):
Yeah.
Mary Tribble (08:30):
Go ahead, Tiffany.
Tiffany Tate (08:32):
That's a complex one because Mary, what it sounds
like you're describing is umkind of the people collisions
that happen at work with whenbias goes unchecked.
So sometimes a manager mightnot be advocating for you
because they just aren't greatmanagers, but they mean well.
Mary Tribble (08:49):
Right.
Tiffany Tate (08:49):
Other times people aren't advocating for you
because unless you know how torecognize when your biases are
getting in the way, and we allhave them, like bias keeps us
safe.
If you have a brain, like welike to categorize things as
people, right?
Um, but there's a lot ofresearch around how um, you
know, the three of us all wentto the same institution.
(09:11):
And so there's a little bit ofshared experience and
understanding there, which isn'tinherently bad.
But if I'm always interviewingand I only choose people that
went to my school or we havethis affinity, then I'm missing
out on an incredible talent poolthat's out there if I don't
design my process the right way.
The same thing happens internalto an organization that if
managers, you know, don't haveuh a framework for managing
(09:36):
performance or giving peoplefeedback or supporting people,
even if they mean well, you'regonna have some um challenges
there.
Um, but in the not so greatscenarios where people don't
always mean well or they just dowhat is easy, a lot of people,
typically marginalized people,you know, whether it's because
of race or perceived class orgender, um, get left behind.
(10:00):
And so in those cases, I oftentell people your manager should
not be the only person thatknows the work that you're
doing, because that person couldget in the way of your work
being visible, and visibility ispart of the promotion path, not
just performance.
Um, you need to be visible, youneed to be exposed within a
company, and other people needto know about the work that
(10:21):
you're doing.
So um it depends on the type ofcompany you're in um and the
culture of that organization.
But usually I say day one on anew job, you know, meet your
manager, but also start to meetother people who are sideways to
you or peers who might be umdiagonally adjacent to your
manager and have that same levelof decision-making power.
(10:42):
Go to the town halls, sign upfor, you know, not all the
volunteer things, but avolunteer thing so that you can
get FaceTime with people youmight not have access to because
that will be good for the longrun.
Cheryl Fischer (10:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
I'm so glad you're saying thatbecause one of the things I
coach women on fairly often,related to work or something
else, life, is every action wetake, there's always some kind
of reaction that happens.
And maybe it's not obviousbecause what you're describing
is well, why should I go to thetown hall?
And why should I know thepeople and why should I be in
(11:17):
the group?
Well, you just don't knowwhat's gonna come from that, and
something will in some way.
Yeah.
Mary Tribble (11:23):
Yeah, I remember one time coaching someone that
worked in my team, and and umshe was working with um not just
internal and alumni, butworking with some some um high
highly positioned people acrosscampus.
And one of the things Ichallenged her with is I said, I
want these folks across campusthat you're working with to come
(11:47):
back and tell me what anincredible worker you've been,
because I want your reputationacross campus to to really be
elevated.
Um, and um, and she wasn'tactually my direct report
either, but um, but I do I thinkthat's really, really important
advice.
And um, and I'm gonna add onone other thing that you um you
(12:10):
did a a post on th or youcommented, I think, on a post on
Threads the other day, and Icommented as well, is the value
of actually being delightful towork with, right?
Just like the value of beingnice, just like all three of us
are so delightful.
Exactly.
That's that's why we're we butit really does matter.
(12:30):
Kindness matters.
And um, and I feel like we'reliving in a world where it it
doesn't, but you know, when whenI had a when I owned a company
and I had folks that wereworking with me on my team, um,
one of my one of the ways Ievaluated folks was not just how
awesome they could pull off amajor event, that was my
business, um, but also how muchthe clients told me that they
(12:57):
enjoyed working with them.
Did you bring them confidenceand trust?
Was it um was it a was it adelight to meet with you?
And did you, you know, were youon point and you know, and
identified problems, all ofthat?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
I just I think it's somethingthat's missing in the workplace
a lot of times.
Tiffany Tate (13:14):
Yeah, I think, you know, I don't remember where I
read this.
Um there's a book, um, I'llhave to send it to you after,
but there's a book I readearlier in my career that's
really targeted towards workingwomen, but it's this idea that
like you can be ambitious andkind, like the like this idea
that you have to be awful topeople to get, you know, to
(13:36):
advance in your career.
And I just I I think I'vealways sort of known that
doesn't feel right, even thoughI didn't have workplace or
talent, culture, language.
My family raised me to treateveryone the same.
Doesn't matter if you're thejanitor, you're the president,
you know, you're whatever.
Um, and I it it sounds sosimple now, but even in higher
ed, you know, um before I gotdeep into it, that was just my
(14:01):
lens.
And I, you know, I'm like, Idon't care what your job is,
you're a person.
So I'm gonna talk to you, andyou know, and I really believe
that like that has createdopportunities for me.
It's allowed me to learn thingsthat, you know, maybe I
shouldn't have had access to,but people just, you know, were
helpful.
Um, and I think in theworkplace, like sometimes people
(14:22):
forget that even when you're inum very high positional roles,
you know, like there's sort ofthis old school 70s, 80s, we
should act like, you know,leaders, a la act like a man
that is not very kind.
And I just I've never boughtinto that.
Um and you know, I know we'regonna talk a little bit about
(14:46):
leadership as a mindset, but Ireally do believe that how you
treat people is the likefoundational to being an
effective professional, whetheryou lead a team formally or not.
Um, and it doesn't mean youalways get it right, but
consistency, um doing the thingsthat you say you're going to
do, asking good questions,apologizing when you're wrong,
(15:09):
you know, like it's very I thinkit's simple stuff.
But I have had clients thathave had really alternate
universe experiences at work.
I've had alternate experiencesin some contexts with managers
that were just weren't goodpeople.
Like they were really smart,but they weren't really good
people.
And um people don't generallywant to follow or work with
(15:30):
people that make them feel bad,you know?
And so, like, even on my team,I try my best.
Like, this is not the Tiffanyshow.
I don't know everything.
You're here to make sure thatwe fulfill our mission.
I need you actually to fulfillthis thing.
And if I've gotten somethingwrong or something is unclear,
or I made a mistake, one of ourvalues is excellence is a habit,
(15:52):
it is not a destination.
And so that requires us to bereally thoughtful about our work
and own when we make a mistakebecause that's the type of
culture I want to work in andthat I want to build.
Cheryl Fischer (16:38):
You know, it's interesting.
It we somehow sometimes we'retaught, I think, that kindness
in the workplace is a weakness.
And I love what you're sayingbecause it there's there's
something invisible that happensinside our heads, even if we
think that kindness is aweakness in the workplace, that
(17:00):
we still would rather work withthe people that we enjoy being
with.
It's deep in there, and we'renever gonna know why we make
these decisions, but it's it'stotally true that deep in there,
if somebody's choosing betweentwo people, of course they're
gonna choose the one they ratherwork with, right?
Right, yeah.
I mean, maybe not of course,yeah.
Tiffany Tate (17:20):
Well, you know, but also I I also want to name
like I define kindness andniceness as very different
things.
So I'm not actually nice.
Like to me, being nice is likeyou're just you know, very uh
sort of overly positive andPollyanna and not being
realistic about what'shappening.
You know, it's like and I holdkindness in high regard, but I
(17:42):
also believe deeply in beingdirect and being honest.
Um, and that's you know,feedback is a skill that people
have to learn how to give goodfeedback and receive it.
I believe kindness existsalongside that, but um,
sometimes it's saying the partthat's not so fun to say or
holding people accountable, butyou can do it with respect for
(18:05):
yourself and respect for people.
And I think sometimes at work,people avoid hard conversations
because they are conflict averseor they don't want to make it
weird.
But it's like we would all bebetter if we were in spaces
where we trusted ourselves andwe trusted our colleagues enough
to be honest and be kindbecause we know that it's a safe
(18:26):
space to do that, right?
But that takes time to build.
But I'm not actually very nice.
I'm kind of like my pet bunny.
I've I'm a little spit of askeptic.
Cheryl Fischer (18:36):
I like that you said trust because that's
exactly where I was going, Ithink, and I just didn't put the
word to it.
I want to trust that whethersomebody's giving me positive or
negative feedback, or whetherthey agree with me or they
don't, that they're gonna behonest and I can trust them, and
it's safe to have thisconversation.
All those pieces I think arepart of trust.
Yeah.
I have had so many people overthe years tell me that they're
(19:00):
just not good at leadership.
They're they just they don'tlook at themselves as a leader.
Like, how could they moveforward?
They're not a leader, and Ijust I just don't think anyone's
just not a leader.
I think it's about a mindsetmore than anything else.
So tell us more about what youthink about that.
Tiffany Tate (19:18):
Absolutely.
Um, for a long time I used tofacilitate a workshop about um
leading from where you sit,because even in deeply
hierarchical workplaces, ifeveryone understands like core
tenets of leadership, becauseyou're leading projects, you're
leading processes, you might beleading people informally or
(19:38):
formally.
We would, you know, probablyall have a lot more fun at work
if like people, you know, dayone could understand like what
is the definition of leadershiphere and what are the skills
that I need to facilitate that.
But in general, like this ideathat you're not a leader until
you get a certain um job is um,as one of my friends says,
(20:00):
Malarky, like it's just nottrue.
Like, I didn't formally leadpeople for many years in my
career, but I was informallyleading really large projects.
And no one sat me down andsaid, here's how you, you know,
manage a matrix team or here'show you manage all of these
resources.
I sort of had to figure it outuntil I had support and coaching
(20:21):
and all that good stuff.
Um, and so this idea that, youknow, someone is not a leader
because they don't have a bigtitle, um, I think holds a lot
of people back from creatingreally interesting work or
driving change at work.
Um, like we're all leadingsomething.
And it might be situational,like it might be a meeting, it
(20:42):
might be um a little bit biggerof a situation, like a project
for six months.
Um, you might be on a team, youknow, now work changes so
rapidly.
You might be on a team for ninemonths where you're leading
these 10 people through a changeinitiative, and then you did
such a great job, they move youover to this other function, and
now you formally have thesereports and you're changing
(21:04):
roles a lot, right?
I think this generation isslated to change jobs like 30 to
35 times.
And some of those jobs might beinside of a company.
So um, something I want for allpeople, but especially women,
is to kind of lean into whatmight feel uncomfortable around
leading and like taking charge.
Um, because I I think that roleclarity invites us to um
(21:29):
continue working on our skillsaround trust building or
communication or feedback.
I talk about that all the time,um, or managing conflict
because you're gonna run intothese collisions at work,
whether you have a big title ornot.
Um, and so the sooner you kindof roll your sleeves up and get
after it, the better you'll offyou'll be, I think.
Cheryl Fischer (21:52):
Do you think it is the fear of conflict that
really is a big piece for peoplewho kind of shy away from
leadership, or is there arethere other pieces in there as
well?
Tiffany Tate (22:03):
I think fear of conflict is a big one.
Um, I also think that if youhave been socialized or raised,
like I was this way.
Um if you are listening to thispodcast and you went awake,
then you probably heard me saythis a la early 2000s.
I never understood, like ittook me well into sophomore year
(22:23):
to understand why we hadparticipation as part of our
grade in classes, because I waslike, I'm doing my work.
I don't, I don't really knowwhy I have to speak to like get
a good grade here.
Um, thankfully, I outgrew thatand I started to understand that
part of the process of learningand really leading in school or
at work or wherever is engagingwith your peers.
(22:46):
It's like having dialogue, it'spushing back on your professor.
But I was raised um with verytraditional parents, and I
thought, you know, the educator,the teacher, whoever is the
most senior in the room isalways right.
Right.
And there culturally, there aresome aspects of that that are
positive and lead to sort ofrespect when you're at home or
(23:06):
in community, right?
Like we have reverence forelders.
But in class, where you'rebeing invited to challenge or
push back, there's uh there'ssome friction there.
Um, and so it took me a longtime to sort of understand, oh,
there's different rules in thiscontext, and actually I do need
to show up differently.
And it doesn't feel I don't, Istill sometimes don't like it,
(23:30):
um, but it's necessary becauseof the role you might be playing
at a given time.
So I share that just to saythat I think sometimes it's a
fear of conflict.
Sometimes um I think it is asort of fear of looking like you
are not kind or respectful.
Um, and I also think, you know,leadership is scary because
(23:50):
when you're leading people orleading a project and something
goes wrong, even if it's notyour fault, you're responsible
for it.
So like accountability cultureis is scary, right?
It's necessary, but it it is alittle bit scary.
Mary Tribble (24:03):
It can also be lonely, right?
I mean, I I you know,leadership when, you know, and
I've had lots of conversationswith people about this, is that
especially when you're in a teamand all of a sudden you get
elevated above your above yourpeers, your colleagues that
you've been working with.
You know, it it it it can bevery lonely because of all those
(24:27):
assumptions, Tiffany, that youjust mentioned that people make
when they walk into a room andif somebody has a certain a
certain title or responsibilityor is leading a certain team,
you know, that especially can umcan sabotage uh creative
meetings, right?
Brainstorming meetings if ifthe boss if you if if you feel
(24:48):
like you throw out an idea andthe boss kind of continually
ignores it or tamps it down.
Um so it yeah, how do you howdo you, Tiffany, how do you, or
Cheryl, both of you, because youboth you both work with leaders
and up-and-coming leaders, howdo you how do you solve for
that?
How do you solve for thatlonely loneliness?
Is it a part, is is part ofthat about making relationships
(25:12):
that are outside of yourdepartment that you just talked
about?
Tiffany Tate (25:14):
Unpopular opinion.
Okay, so yeah.
I think it was in terms ofpersonal loneliness, I think
it's really important to have apersonal and professional
network of people that you trustand that you can talk to
outside of your job.
Um, it's just I think a smartthing to do because it helps you
problem solve or get objectivefeedback and just be yourself,
(25:37):
like without the, you know, kindof film we put on sometimes at
work.
And inside of an organization,you should absolutely be
building relationships.
Um, I also think that so I justI know we've talked about this,
Mary, but I just don't we mightmake friends at work, but we're
not there to be friends.
Right?
Like, and so I think sometimeswhen people push past like, oh,
(26:01):
I was your peer and now I'm likeyou're reporting to me.
It's weird because the natureof your relationship was odd to
begin with.
Like you might know way toomuch about a person.
Um so I think that can be alittle bit tricky when now you
have to hold somebodyaccountable.
It's not easy, but it's like Ihave made great friendships at
(26:21):
work, people that I considerfriends, and we text and we talk
and we hang out.
Um, and at work, I alwaysmanaged a certain level of, you
know, um privacy or, you know,not oversharing or, you know,
boundaries.
Like there are certain things Ijust didn't do earlier in my
(26:41):
career because I wasn't thatmuch older than the people I was
serving either.
So I had like really hardboundaries, right?
And so I share that just to saythat sometimes we are lonely
because we have unrealisticexpectations of what our
colleagues should be to us.
Um, and so buildingrelationships outside of work, I
think, is just smart in generalas a person, and we require
(27:06):
community to solve things andfigure things out.
So you'll have community atwork, but it won't look the same
as the community outside ofwork.
Cheryl Fischer (27:14):
And I would echo that exactly.
My first management rolehappened when I was 27, and I
was managing people who werearound my age and older than me,
and exactly what you're saying,it suddenly was a little bit
different.
But we don't have to all bebest friends at work, and maybe
there is something that would beoversharing that you save for
(27:36):
your other friends.
And it's interesting becausethis is a big topic in midlife,
too, because as our kids grow upand they leave the house and
we're looking towards the end ofour career, everything seems to
kind of change.
And sometimes we lose friendsand we need to make a new
community and not lose friendsbecause of any blow up, just
(27:57):
lose friends because of thesituation.
The situation is different.
The the our how do I say this?
Our kids, friends, parents areno longer we're no longer really
with them, and that communityis a big deal.
It's a big deal outside of workto have people that you can
really talk about anything with.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Tiffany Tate (28:16):
Cheryl, how do you find those people?
Like, I think, you know, as Iprepare for someone leaving me
in a few years, just you know, II think about that a lot and
how building adult friendshipscan be hard.
Um, it can be easy and harddepending on what you do, I
think, um, and how you how muchfree time you have.
But I'm just curious, like, howdo you navigate that?
Cheryl Fischer (28:39):
So personally, in a couple of different ways,
and this is what I advise peopleto do as well.
And maybe one of these wouldfit you better than others, but
one, it's doing activities, andthis is why we joke all the time
about how mahjong is gettingbig and grandma hobbies are
getting big.
This is why you can makefriends if you go and do
(29:02):
activities that are kind ofsocial and fun, and that is the
solution for a lot of people,and then you just find the
people that you really connectwith.
Interestingly, I've also madefriends just going to networking
events.
Um of the best advice I evergot was to walk into a
networking event because we allfeel a little awkward and about
(29:24):
it, and just say to yourself, Iwant to meet one person today
that I really connect with.
Like, don't let it be about Ineed 27 business cards and I
have to know all the things, butlike let me see if I can find
somebody I really connect with.
And sometimes that developsinto let's go for coffee, and
you end up being some meetingsomeone you can really talk to.
(29:45):
Not always, but so it's a lotof activities.
But the other thing, let mejust give a shout out to my Wake
Forest uh what do I call them,friends from college.
There's a few that now livehere locally, and so we've been
friends for a million years, andnow we're back to getting
together more, and so thathistory sometimes works out well
(30:06):
too.
Mary Tribble (30:07):
I I would agree with that.
I I've been dealing with it, soyou know, I moved to I lived in
Charlotte for 30 years and hadall kinds of just good, but the
biggest thing about me leavingCharlotte was all my friends.
Um, and pi these are peoplethat I had been colleagues with
like throughout the city forjust decades.
So when I came to work at Wake,I had kind of an instant, you
(30:29):
know, you kind of have aninstant atmosphere of of
colleagues and so on, but thenwhen I decided to start with to
Through my phased retirement.
Then all of a sudden I woke upand I was like, oh my God, I'm
in a city that I haven't plantedmy feet in the way that I
planted my feet in Charlotte.
So how do I do that?
And I literally, I just I didit like old-fashioned networking
(30:50):
that I did when I was 25 yearsold when started my company.
Was I just had lunch withsomebody and said, all right,
I'm looking to connect topeople.
I want to get involved in thecommunity.
And one thing, I mean, I justdid it like old-fashioned
networking, one thing left toanother.
And and there are there arealso opportunities I think that
you have to go outside yourcomfort zone sometimes to say
yes to.
(31:10):
And that's what Cheryl wastalking about in terms of in
terms of activities.
There's um there's a a group ofwomen that have been meeting
for dinner um the first, what isit, the first Tuesday of every
month for like 25 years.
And these are all um women whohave worked, most of women who
have worked in higher educationone way or the other, but not
(31:32):
Wake Forest by, I mean some WakeForest, but not all Wake Force.
And I got invited to join thatgroup about three or four years
ago.
And it's one of my lifelinesnow.
And it's a different group ofpeople that shows, you know,
some people have moved away,people some people have moved
on, but you know, those those ifsomebody asks you to do
something like that, say yes.
(31:52):
Say yes, for God's sake.
Tiffany, I am always excited tohear what what you're doing
next.
And thank you so much for yourwisdom and insight.
Uh once again, any lastingthoughts that you want to leave
our our folks with?
How do they find you on socialmedia and so on?
Tiffany Tate (32:11):
Yeah, you can find me um on social media at
Instagram or LinkedIn orthreads, my name Tiffany Waddell
Tate, and you can follow ourcompany online at career
mavenconsulting.com and sign upfor my newsletter, which I'll
share the link for the shownotes.
But if I were to leavelisteners with one last thing,
it would just be that whateveryou're experiencing in and
(32:32):
around your work is probablychangeable, whether you change
the situation or you change yourjob.
So just a reminder that you'renot a tree, you can't actually
move.
So you are not a potted plant.
Mary Tribble (32:47):
We all need that reminder sometimes.
That's a really good reminder.
Okay, thank you all so much.
Cheryl Fischer (32:56):
I took away from this conversation some really
powerful lessons aboutvisibility and about really
self-belief.
No matter what phase of ourcareer we're in.
Tiffany talked about makingsure that you're visible, not
just to your boss, but to otherpeople in your company or other
(33:21):
people in your industry, andthen finding sponsorship.
And that's another word almostfor mentorship.
It is really important to bemaking those connections and
seeking out those relationships.
But then if you remember, maybenot like best friend
relationships in our place ofwork.
So she said that was anunpopular opinion.
(33:43):
I think it's probably valid.
The other thing I want you tokeep in mind is lead from where
you sit, lead from where you arenow.
And Robin Sharma wrote a greatbook, The Leader Who Had No
Title, which really taught me alot of lessons about that.
You can lead from wherever youare in all sorts of different
(34:05):
capacities.
But that leadership alsoinvolves being open.
Because if you remember, wejust had a quick little
discussion about learning how toquestion our professors in
class and learning how to havedialogue back and forth.
I have one parent who reallywas so reluctant to ever
question her doctors.
And we kind of worked with heron, you know what, we need to
(34:29):
get a second opinion or we needto ask more questions, or did
you ask this or that?
Because I think with eachgeneration, maybe we've been
more willing to question theexperts.
They might be experts in theirarea, but we have our story as
well, and we know how toadvocate for ourselves.
So I hope you have taken somuch out of today's episode.
(34:49):
Make sure you have hit thefollow button because next week
we are gonna be talking aboutempty nesting.
And I may have been avoidingthis subject for a little while,
but we're gonna lay it all outthere and talk it through.
So I will see you then.
And in the meantime, rememberthat in midlife, it's time to
(35:12):
take just a little bit bettercare of yourself.
Just a little bit better caremakes a huge difference.
If you've ever gotten frustrated that in your
professional environment, itfeels like people don't see you.
It feels like they don'tappreciate you.
It feels like what are youstill doing there?
Especially when we hit like 50sand 60s, right?
Then you are gonna enjoytoday's episode because we're
(00:20):
going to make that make senseand hopefully give you some tips
that will really help.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind Your Midlife,your go-to resource for
confidence and success, onethought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
(00:41):
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and, oh my
goodness, powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind Your MidlifePodcast.
(01:03):
Today's episode is somethingvery cool and a little bit
different.
And I'm so excited to welcometwo guests to the podcast.
So Mary Tribble is joining mefrom the Wake Women podcast, and
we are jointly creating this.
(01:23):
So you will see our episode alittle bit different, but same
guests, same conversation overon Wake Women.
Make sure to check it out.
And then our guest today isTiffany Tate.
So Tiffany is a speaker and acareer and leadership expert,
and she's the founder and CEO ofCareer Maven Consulting.
(01:46):
So she is here to help usunderstand leadership and give
us that kind of mid-career.
What am I going to do now andhow am I going to be connected?
Advice.
Now, Mary led a Charlotte-basedmarketing firm for 25 years,
and she and I are both WakeForest University graduates.
(02:10):
So she returned to her almamater about 10 years ago to lead
the alumni engagement team.
And that is how she and Iconnected, and that is where the
Wake Women podcast came from.
So I am excited that the threeof us can have this
conversation.
Mary Tribble (02:28):
I imagine that MidCareer for a lot of us kind
of becomes or became a place ofstuckness, right?
Is that especially when you getinto, say, a corporate world or
any kind of organization thathas a hierarchy to it and
somehow seems mysterious as tohow it works.
And I know when I came to workat um at Wake Force University,
(02:50):
I came to work in universityadvancement.
I had never worked in highereducation before.
Tiffany, I'm sure it showed.
Because I was learning frompeople like you who were
teaching me kind of how how thestructure, I think higher
education is particularlyunique.
But I also, you know, had a lotof exposure with corporations.
And so there's an place ofbeing stuck, I think, that
(03:14):
people find themselves in indifferent points in their
career.
And um, and there's somethingthat Tiffany, you call the
invisible ceiling for mid-careerprofessionals.
Let's jump off on that as interms of a topic.
I I want to hear more what youmean about that and how you help
people navigate around it.
Tiffany Tate (03:34):
Yeah, so um, by definition, I also want to name
that sometimes a mid-career andmidlife get um interchangeably.
Um, in our space, when I saymid-career, you have been a
working professional for atleast 10 years.
Somewhere between 10, 15, maybe20 years you've been in the
workforce.
Um, and so it's more about timeuh clocked than time maybe on
(04:00):
the planet.
Um I just want to name that.
Uh that said, when when I'mtalking about invisible ceiling,
um, you know, I think whenyou're talking about women
specifically at work, we'reprobably all familiar with the
glass ceiling where you justwork really hard and then you
hit this sort of um this rungwhere you can't persist if you
(04:22):
don't have adequate sponsorship.
And there's a lot of researcharound the um glass ceiling for
women.
The invisible ceiling is notgender specific and it really
speaks to people who have beenworking for a while, they've
been doing good work, maybethey've gotten promoted, um,
they're getting, you know,positive feedback, but they
can't seem to like push to thenext level.
(04:43):
They may or may not beinterested in being executive
level, but they just want togrow in their career, take on
more responsibility.
Maybe they want to lead peopleor lead more people, but they're
not really clear on how to dothat.
Um, and so they may not begetting cues as to how to
facilitate what happens next.
And so often mid-career people,which makes up the majority of
(05:05):
the workforce, right?
Like there's only a handful ofpeople in the C-suite.
Right.
And then there's a lot ofpeople, entry-level, first job,
interns, but everyone else issort of in the middle of the row
at work.
And it can get a little diceybecause you might be taking on a
lot of responsibility withoutrecognition or additional
reward.
And so when we are talkingabout the invisible ceiling,
(05:26):
we're really talking about howto help professionals figure out
okay, what do I want my worklife to look and feel like?
How do I develop therelationships so that my work is
more visible so I can go afterhigher earning or higher levels
of responsibility, uh, whetherit's inside my organization or
at a new company?
Because it's just, it's justsort of murky.
Like you're like, oh, I'm doinga good job, but I don't really
(05:47):
know how to navigate whathappens next.
Cheryl Fischer (05:49):
And so part of Go ahead, Cyril.
I was just gonna say that makesme curious.
Do you find that people whenthey're saying I don't know how
to figure out what happens next?
Do they kind of feel like itshould happen without them
having to take action?
Do they do they feel like thepath is just gonna go forward
(06:12):
and then the shock is that itdoesn't?
Is that kind of what you see?
Tiffany Tate (06:16):
Yes.
Uh I think, you know, for it'sironic because some of the same
challenges that mid-careerprofessionals face are similar
to early career.
Um, I know I experienced thiswhen I finished at Wake.
I thought, well, I've workedhard and I did all the things on
paper that you're supposed todo.
So clearly a job should justappear.
(06:36):
Um, and then when you get intosaid job, people should just
know you work hard and youdeliver.
So, like the next thing shouldhappen, but that's not really
how work works.
And so um, unfortunately, manypeople who um have always
operated on kind of a syllabusparadigm where it's really clear
um what activities you'resupposed to complete and the
(06:59):
grades should come for that.
That's not really how workworks.
And you could be doing reallywell at whatever your technical
expertise is, um, but to grow inyour career requires um
visibility, uh sponsorship.
People have to advocate foryou.
Even some of the skills thatyou need to be successful in
your work as you grow are notkind of the hard-coded things
(07:22):
you learn in a classroom or umin a quick hit training.
It takes time and constantfeedback loops.
And people unfortunately don'talways receive that.
And so they could hit a walland not really understand why,
and not have someone above themcoaching them for the
performance piece, which is awhole other can of worms we
(07:42):
could talk about.
Mary Tribble (07:43):
What about um also when I've observed this in my
workplaces when somebody'sactually doing good work, but
they kinda they have a bossthat's in the way, right?
I mean, meaning like a bossthat's not advocating for them.
And um and and and theinformation that the superior
(08:04):
seems to be working on is not isnot really telling the whole
story.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I've seen like I've seensuperiors kind of seem to like
take take pet, you know, peoplethat they that they really want
to advocate and employ, maybethey look more like them, or
maybe they went to the sameschool they went to, or
whatever, and they tend toelevate one person over another.
(08:25):
How do you navigate aroundthat?
And either one of you cananswer that.
Cheryl Fischer (08:30):
Yeah.
Mary Tribble (08:30):
Go ahead, Tiffany.
Tiffany Tate (08:32):
That's a complex one because Mary, what it sounds
like you're describing is umkind of the people collisions
that happen at work with whenbias goes unchecked.
So sometimes a manager mightnot be advocating for you
because they just aren't greatmanagers, but they mean well.
Mary Tribble (08:49):
Right.
Tiffany Tate (08:49):
Other times people aren't advocating for you
because unless you know how torecognize when your biases are
getting in the way, and we allhave them, like bias keeps us
safe.
If you have a brain, like welike to categorize things as
people, right?
Um, but there's a lot ofresearch around how um, you
know, the three of us all wentto the same institution.
(09:11):
And so there's a little bit ofshared experience and
understanding there, which isn'tinherently bad.
But if I'm always interviewingand I only choose people that
went to my school or we havethis affinity, then I'm missing
out on an incredible talent poolthat's out there if I don't
design my process the right way.
The same thing happens internalto an organization that if
managers, you know, don't haveuh a framework for managing
(09:36):
performance or giving peoplefeedback or supporting people,
even if they mean well, you'regonna have some um challenges
there.
Um, but in the not so greatscenarios where people don't
always mean well or they just dowhat is easy, a lot of people,
typically marginalized people,you know, whether it's because
of race or perceived class orgender, um, get left behind.
(10:00):
And so in those cases, I oftentell people your manager should
not be the only person thatknows the work that you're
doing, because that person couldget in the way of your work
being visible, and visibility ispart of the promotion path, not
just performance.
Um, you need to be visible, youneed to be exposed within a
company, and other people needto know about the work that
(10:21):
you're doing.
So um it depends on the type ofcompany you're in um and the
culture of that organization.
But usually I say day one on anew job, you know, meet your
manager, but also start to meetother people who are sideways to
you or peers who might be umdiagonally adjacent to your
manager and have that same levelof decision-making power.
(10:42):
Go to the town halls, sign upfor, you know, not all the
volunteer things, but avolunteer thing so that you can
get FaceTime with people youmight not have access to because
that will be good for the longrun.
Cheryl Fischer (10:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
I'm so glad you're saying thatbecause one of the things I
coach women on fairly often,related to work or something
else, life, is every action wetake, there's always some kind
of reaction that happens.
And maybe it's not obviousbecause what you're describing
is well, why should I go to thetown hall?
And why should I know thepeople and why should I be in
(11:17):
the group?
Well, you just don't knowwhat's gonna come from that, and
something will in some way.
Yeah.
Mary Tribble (11:23):
Yeah, I remember one time coaching someone that
worked in my team, and and umshe was working with um not just
internal and alumni, butworking with some some um high
highly positioned people acrosscampus.
And one of the things Ichallenged her with is I said, I
want these folks across campusthat you're working with to come
(11:47):
back and tell me what anincredible worker you've been,
because I want your reputationacross campus to to really be
elevated.
Um, and um, and she wasn'tactually my direct report
either, but um, but I do I thinkthat's really, really important
advice.
And um, and I'm gonna add onone other thing that you um you
(12:10):
did a a post on th or youcommented, I think, on a post on
Threads the other day, and Icommented as well, is the value
of actually being delightful towork with, right?
Just like the value of beingnice, just like all three of us
are so delightful.
Exactly.
That's that's why we're we butit really does matter.
(12:30):
Kindness matters.
And um, and I feel like we'reliving in a world where it it
doesn't, but you know, when whenI had a when I owned a company
and I had folks that wereworking with me on my team, um,
one of my one of the ways Ievaluated folks was not just how
awesome they could pull off amajor event, that was my
business, um, but also how muchthe clients told me that they
(12:57):
enjoyed working with them.
Did you bring them confidenceand trust?
Was it um was it a was it adelight to meet with you?
And did you, you know, were youon point and you know, and
identified problems, all ofthat?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
I just I think it's somethingthat's missing in the workplace
a lot of times.
Tiffany Tate (13:14):
Yeah, I think, you know, I don't remember where I
read this.
Um there's a book, um, I'llhave to send it to you after,
but there's a book I readearlier in my career that's
really targeted towards workingwomen, but it's this idea that
like you can be ambitious andkind, like the like this idea
that you have to be awful topeople to get, you know, to
(13:36):
advance in your career.
And I just I I think I'vealways sort of known that
doesn't feel right, even thoughI didn't have workplace or
talent, culture, language.
My family raised me to treateveryone the same.
Doesn't matter if you're thejanitor, you're the president,
you know, you're whatever.
Um, and I it it sounds sosimple now, but even in higher
ed, you know, um before I gotdeep into it, that was just my
(14:01):
lens.
And I, you know, I'm like, Idon't care what your job is,
you're a person.
So I'm gonna talk to you, andyou know, and I really believe
that like that has createdopportunities for me.
It's allowed me to learn thingsthat, you know, maybe I
shouldn't have had access to,but people just, you know, were
helpful.
Um, and I think in theworkplace, like sometimes people
(14:22):
forget that even when you're inum very high positional roles,
you know, like there's sort ofthis old school 70s, 80s, we
should act like, you know,leaders, a la act like a man
that is not very kind.
And I just I've never boughtinto that.
Um and you know, I know we'regonna talk a little bit about
(14:46):
leadership as a mindset, but Ireally do believe that how you
treat people is the likefoundational to being an
effective professional, whetheryou lead a team formally or not.
Um, and it doesn't mean youalways get it right, but
consistency, um doing the thingsthat you say you're going to
do, asking good questions,apologizing when you're wrong,
(15:09):
you know, like it's very I thinkit's simple stuff.
But I have had clients thathave had really alternate
universe experiences at work.
I've had alternate experiencesin some contexts with managers
that were just weren't goodpeople.
Like they were really smart,but they weren't really good
people.
And um people don't generallywant to follow or work with
(15:30):
people that make them feel bad,you know?
And so, like, even on my team,I try my best.
Like, this is not the Tiffanyshow.
I don't know everything.
You're here to make sure thatwe fulfill our mission.
I need you actually to fulfillthis thing.
And if I've gotten somethingwrong or something is unclear,
or I made a mistake, one of ourvalues is excellence is a habit,
(15:52):
it is not a destination.
And so that requires us to bereally thoughtful about our work
and own when we make a mistakebecause that's the type of
culture I want to work in andthat I want to build.
Cheryl Fischer (16:38):
You know, it's interesting.
It we somehow sometimes we'retaught, I think, that kindness
in the workplace is a weakness.
And I love what you're sayingbecause it there's there's
something invisible that happensinside our heads, even if we
think that kindness is aweakness in the workplace, that
(17:00):
we still would rather work withthe people that we enjoy being
with.
It's deep in there, and we'renever gonna know why we make
these decisions, but it's it'stotally true that deep in there,
if somebody's choosing betweentwo people, of course they're
gonna choose the one they ratherwork with, right?
Right, yeah.
I mean, maybe not of course,yeah.
Tiffany Tate (17:20):
Well, you know, but also I I also want to name
like I define kindness andniceness as very different
things.
So I'm not actually nice.
Like to me, being nice is likeyou're just you know, very uh
sort of overly positive andPollyanna and not being
realistic about what'shappening.
You know, it's like and I holdkindness in high regard, but I
(17:42):
also believe deeply in beingdirect and being honest.
Um, and that's you know,feedback is a skill that people
have to learn how to give goodfeedback and receive it.
I believe kindness existsalongside that, but um,
sometimes it's saying the partthat's not so fun to say or
holding people accountable, butyou can do it with respect for
(18:05):
yourself and respect for people.
And I think sometimes at work,people avoid hard conversations
because they are conflict averseor they don't want to make it
weird.
But it's like we would all bebetter if we were in spaces
where we trusted ourselves andwe trusted our colleagues enough
to be honest and be kindbecause we know that it's a safe
(18:26):
space to do that, right?
But that takes time to build.
But I'm not actually very nice.
I'm kind of like my pet bunny.
I've I'm a little spit of askeptic.
Cheryl Fischer (18:36):
I like that you said trust because that's
exactly where I was going, Ithink, and I just didn't put the
word to it.
I want to trust that whethersomebody's giving me positive or
negative feedback, or whetherthey agree with me or they
don't, that they're gonna behonest and I can trust them, and
it's safe to have thisconversation.
All those pieces I think arepart of trust.
Yeah.
I have had so many people overthe years tell me that they're
(19:00):
just not good at leadership.
They're they just they don'tlook at themselves as a leader.
Like, how could they moveforward?
They're not a leader, and Ijust I just don't think anyone's
just not a leader.
I think it's about a mindsetmore than anything else.
So tell us more about what youthink about that.
Tiffany Tate (19:18):
Absolutely.
Um, for a long time I used tofacilitate a workshop about um
leading from where you sit,because even in deeply
hierarchical workplaces, ifeveryone understands like core
tenets of leadership, becauseyou're leading projects, you're
leading processes, you might beleading people informally or
(19:38):
formally.
We would, you know, probablyall have a lot more fun at work
if like people, you know, dayone could understand like what
is the definition of leadershiphere and what are the skills
that I need to facilitate that.
But in general, like this ideathat you're not a leader until
you get a certain um job is um,as one of my friends says,
(20:00):
Malarky, like it's just nottrue.
Like, I didn't formally leadpeople for many years in my
career, but I was informallyleading really large projects.
And no one sat me down andsaid, here's how you, you know,
manage a matrix team or here'show you manage all of these
resources.
I sort of had to figure it outuntil I had support and coaching
(20:21):
and all that good stuff.
Um, and so this idea that, youknow, someone is not a leader
because they don't have a bigtitle, um, I think holds a lot
of people back from creatingreally interesting work or
driving change at work.
Um, like we're all leadingsomething.
And it might be situational,like it might be a meeting, it
(20:42):
might be um a little bit biggerof a situation, like a project
for six months.
Um, you might be on a team, youknow, now work changes so
rapidly.
You might be on a team for ninemonths where you're leading
these 10 people through a changeinitiative, and then you did
such a great job, they move youover to this other function, and
now you formally have thesereports and you're changing
(21:04):
roles a lot, right?
I think this generation isslated to change jobs like 30 to
35 times.
And some of those jobs might beinside of a company.
So um, something I want for allpeople, but especially women,
is to kind of lean into whatmight feel uncomfortable around
leading and like taking charge.
Um, because I I think that roleclarity invites us to um
(21:29):
continue working on our skillsaround trust building or
communication or feedback.
I talk about that all the time,um, or managing conflict
because you're gonna run intothese collisions at work,
whether you have a big title ornot.
Um, and so the sooner you kindof roll your sleeves up and get
after it, the better you'll offyou'll be, I think.
Cheryl Fischer (21:52):
Do you think it is the fear of conflict that
really is a big piece for peoplewho kind of shy away from
leadership, or is there arethere other pieces in there as
well?
Tiffany Tate (22:03):
I think fear of conflict is a big one.
Um, I also think that if youhave been socialized or raised,
like I was this way.
Um if you are listening to thispodcast and you went awake,
then you probably heard me saythis a la early 2000s.
I never understood, like ittook me well into sophomore year
(22:23):
to understand why we hadparticipation as part of our
grade in classes, because I waslike, I'm doing my work.
I don't, I don't really knowwhy I have to speak to like get
a good grade here.
Um, thankfully, I outgrew thatand I started to understand that
part of the process of learningand really leading in school or
at work or wherever is engagingwith your peers.
(22:46):
It's like having dialogue, it'spushing back on your professor.
But I was raised um with verytraditional parents, and I
thought, you know, the educator,the teacher, whoever is the
most senior in the room isalways right.
Right.
And there culturally, there aresome aspects of that that are
positive and lead to sort ofrespect when you're at home or
(23:06):
in community, right?
Like we have reverence forelders.
But in class, where you'rebeing invited to challenge or
push back, there's uh there'ssome friction there.
Um, and so it took me a longtime to sort of understand, oh,
there's different rules in thiscontext, and actually I do need
to show up differently.
And it doesn't feel I don't, Istill sometimes don't like it,
(23:30):
um, but it's necessary becauseof the role you might be playing
at a given time.
So I share that just to saythat I think sometimes it's a
fear of conflict.
Sometimes um I think it is asort of fear of looking like you
are not kind or respectful.
Um, and I also think, you know,leadership is scary because
(23:50):
when you're leading people orleading a project and something
goes wrong, even if it's notyour fault, you're responsible
for it.
So like accountability cultureis is scary, right?
It's necessary, but it it is alittle bit scary.
Mary Tribble (24:03):
It can also be lonely, right?
I mean, I I you know,leadership when, you know, and
I've had lots of conversationswith people about this, is that
especially when you're in a teamand all of a sudden you get
elevated above your above yourpeers, your colleagues that
you've been working with.
You know, it it it it can bevery lonely because of all those
(24:27):
assumptions, Tiffany, that youjust mentioned that people make
when they walk into a room andif somebody has a certain a
certain title or responsibilityor is leading a certain team,
you know, that especially can umcan sabotage uh creative
meetings, right?
Brainstorming meetings if ifthe boss if you if if you feel
(24:48):
like you throw out an idea andthe boss kind of continually
ignores it or tamps it down.
Um so it yeah, how do you howdo you, Tiffany, how do you, or
Cheryl, both of you, because youboth you both work with leaders
and up-and-coming leaders, howdo you how do you solve for
that?
How do you solve for thatlonely loneliness?
Is it a part, is is part ofthat about making relationships
(25:12):
that are outside of yourdepartment that you just talked
about?
Tiffany Tate (25:14):
Unpopular opinion.
Okay, so yeah.
I think it was in terms ofpersonal loneliness, I think
it's really important to have apersonal and professional
network of people that you trustand that you can talk to
outside of your job.
Um, it's just I think a smartthing to do because it helps you
problem solve or get objectivefeedback and just be yourself,
(25:37):
like without the, you know, kindof film we put on sometimes at
work.
And inside of an organization,you should absolutely be
building relationships.
Um, I also think that so I justI know we've talked about this,
Mary, but I just don't we mightmake friends at work, but we're
not there to be friends.
Right?
Like, and so I think sometimeswhen people push past like, oh,
(26:01):
I was your peer and now I'm likeyou're reporting to me.
It's weird because the natureof your relationship was odd to
begin with.
Like you might know way toomuch about a person.
Um so I think that can be alittle bit tricky when now you
have to hold somebodyaccountable.
It's not easy, but it's like Ihave made great friendships at
(26:21):
work, people that I considerfriends, and we text and we talk
and we hang out.
Um, and at work, I alwaysmanaged a certain level of, you
know, um privacy or, you know,not oversharing or, you know,
boundaries.
Like there are certain things Ijust didn't do earlier in my
(26:41):
career because I wasn't thatmuch older than the people I was
serving either.
So I had like really hardboundaries, right?
And so I share that just to saythat sometimes we are lonely
because we have unrealisticexpectations of what our
colleagues should be to us.
Um, and so buildingrelationships outside of work, I
think, is just smart in generalas a person, and we require
(27:06):
community to solve things andfigure things out.
So you'll have community atwork, but it won't look the same
as the community outside ofwork.
Cheryl Fischer (27:14):
And I would echo that exactly.
My first management rolehappened when I was 27, and I
was managing people who werearound my age and older than me,
and exactly what you're saying,it suddenly was a little bit
different.
But we don't have to all bebest friends at work, and maybe
there is something that would beoversharing that you save for
(27:36):
your other friends.
And it's interesting becausethis is a big topic in midlife,
too, because as our kids grow upand they leave the house and
we're looking towards the end ofour career, everything seems to
kind of change.
And sometimes we lose friendsand we need to make a new
community and not lose friendsbecause of any blow up, just
(27:57):
lose friends because of thesituation.
The situation is different.
The the our how do I say this?
Our kids, friends, parents areno longer we're no longer really
with them, and that communityis a big deal.
It's a big deal outside of workto have people that you can
really talk about anything with.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Tiffany Tate (28:16):
Cheryl, how do you find those people?
Like, I think, you know, as Iprepare for someone leaving me
in a few years, just you know, II think about that a lot and
how building adult friendshipscan be hard.
Um, it can be easy and harddepending on what you do, I
think, um, and how you how muchfree time you have.
But I'm just curious, like, howdo you navigate that?
Cheryl Fischer (28:39):
So personally, in a couple of different ways,
and this is what I advise peopleto do as well.
And maybe one of these wouldfit you better than others, but
one, it's doing activities, andthis is why we joke all the time
about how mahjong is gettingbig and grandma hobbies are
getting big.
This is why you can makefriends if you go and do
(29:02):
activities that are kind ofsocial and fun, and that is the
solution for a lot of people,and then you just find the
people that you really connectwith.
Interestingly, I've also madefriends just going to networking
events.
Um of the best advice I evergot was to walk into a
networking event because we allfeel a little awkward and about
(29:24):
it, and just say to yourself, Iwant to meet one person today
that I really connect with.
Like, don't let it be about Ineed 27 business cards and I
have to know all the things, butlike let me see if I can find
somebody I really connect with.
And sometimes that developsinto let's go for coffee, and
you end up being some meetingsomeone you can really talk to.
(29:45):
Not always, but so it's a lotof activities.
But the other thing, let mejust give a shout out to my Wake
Forest uh what do I call them,friends from college.
There's a few that now livehere locally, and so we've been
friends for a million years, andnow we're back to getting
together more, and so thathistory sometimes works out well
(30:06):
too.
Mary Tribble (30:07):
I I would agree with that.
I I've been dealing with it, soyou know, I moved to I lived in
Charlotte for 30 years and hadall kinds of just good, but the
biggest thing about me leavingCharlotte was all my friends.
Um, and pi these are peoplethat I had been colleagues with
like throughout the city forjust decades.
So when I came to work at Wake,I had kind of an instant, you
(30:29):
know, you kind of have aninstant atmosphere of of
colleagues and so on, but thenwhen I decided to start with to
Through my phased retirement.
Then all of a sudden I woke upand I was like, oh my God, I'm
in a city that I haven't plantedmy feet in the way that I
planted my feet in Charlotte.
So how do I do that?
And I literally, I just I didit like old-fashioned networking
(30:50):
that I did when I was 25 yearsold when started my company.
Was I just had lunch withsomebody and said, all right,
I'm looking to connect topeople.
I want to get involved in thecommunity.
And one thing, I mean, I justdid it like old-fashioned
networking, one thing left toanother.
And and there are there arealso opportunities I think that
you have to go outside yourcomfort zone sometimes to say
yes to.
(31:10):
And that's what Cheryl wastalking about in terms of in
terms of activities.
There's um there's a a group ofwomen that have been meeting
for dinner um the first, what isit, the first Tuesday of every
month for like 25 years.
And these are all um women whohave worked, most of women who
have worked in higher educationone way or the other, but not
(31:32):
Wake Forest by, I mean some WakeForest, but not all Wake Force.
And I got invited to join thatgroup about three or four years
ago.
And it's one of my lifelinesnow.
And it's a different group ofpeople that shows, you know,
some people have moved away,people some people have moved
on, but you know, those those ifsomebody asks you to do
something like that, say yes.
(31:52):
Say yes, for God's sake.
Tiffany, I am always excited tohear what what you're doing
next.
And thank you so much for yourwisdom and insight.
Uh once again, any lastingthoughts that you want to leave
our our folks with?
How do they find you on socialmedia and so on?
Tiffany Tate (32:11):
Yeah, you can find me um on social media at
Instagram or LinkedIn orthreads, my name Tiffany Waddell
Tate, and you can follow ourcompany online at career
mavenconsulting.com and sign upfor my newsletter, which I'll
share the link for the shownotes.
But if I were to leavelisteners with one last thing,
it would just be that whateveryou're experiencing in and
(32:32):
around your work is probablychangeable, whether you change
the situation or you change yourjob.
So just a reminder that you'renot a tree, you can't actually
move.
So you are not a potted plant.
Mary Tribble (32:47):
We all need that reminder sometimes.
That's a really good reminder.
Okay, thank you all so much.
Cheryl Fischer (32:56):
I took away from this conversation some really
powerful lessons aboutvisibility and about really
self-belief.
No matter what phase of ourcareer we're in.
Tiffany talked about makingsure that you're visible, not
just to your boss, but to otherpeople in your company or other
(33:21):
people in your industry, andthen finding sponsorship.
And that's another word almostfor mentorship.
It is really important to bemaking those connections and
seeking out those relationships.
But then if you remember, maybenot like best friend
relationships in our place ofwork.
So she said that was anunpopular opinion.
(33:43):
I think it's probably valid.
The other thing I want you tokeep in mind is lead from where
you sit, lead from where you arenow.
And Robin Sharma wrote a greatbook, The Leader Who Had No
Title, which really taught me alot of lessons about that.
You can lead from wherever youare in all sorts of different
(34:05):
capacities.
But that leadership alsoinvolves being open.
Because if you remember, wejust had a quick little
discussion about learning how toquestion our professors in
class and learning how to havedialogue back and forth.
I have one parent who reallywas so reluctant to ever
question her doctors.
And we kind of worked with heron, you know what, we need to
(34:29):
get a second opinion or we needto ask more questions, or did
you ask this or that?
Because I think with eachgeneration, maybe we've been
more willing to question theexperts.
They might be experts in theirarea, but we have our story as
well, and we know how toadvocate for ourselves.
So I hope you have taken somuch out of today's episode.
(34:49):
Make sure you have hit thefollow button because next week
we are gonna be talking aboutempty nesting.
And I may have been avoidingthis subject for a little while,
but we're gonna lay it all outthere and talk it through.
So I will see you then.
And in the meantime, rememberthat in midlife, it's time to
(35:12):
take just a little bit bettercare of yourself.
Just a little bit better caremakes a huge difference.
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