August 8, 2025 • 41 mins
Ever wondered why you’re wide awake at 3am—and nothing seems to help? You’re not broken, and you’re definitely not alone. In this episode of Mind Your Midlife, I sit down with sleep coach Morgan Adams to talk about why so many women over 40 and women over 50 struggle with sleep—and what actually works to get it back.
Morgan shares her own journey from years of insomnia and dependence on medication to finally experiencing deep, restorative sleep. Now, she helps midlife women reclaim their nights through powerful mindset shifts, hormone-aware strategies, and science-backed tools that actually work.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:
✔ Why sleep problems are so common for midlife women—and it’s not just menopause
✔ What CBT-I is and why it’s more effective than melatonin or sleep meds
✔ How your mindset, thoughts, and language affect your sleep patterns
✔ Practical, healthy sleep habits that support hormone balance and self care
🎯 OMG Moment: You need to see and experience sun first thing in the morning. This one habit could change everything.
Take Action
Connect with Morgan at morganadamswellness.com.
Listen to the perimenopause sleep episode with Carin Luna-Ostaseski and find your new favorite menopause products at hotorjustme.com.
🌟 BONUS CONTENT IN PATREON
Want more? In our Midlife Pivot Patreon community, Morgan shares 3 simple sleep tips you can try immediately—no pills, no products, no pressure.
💛 Join us now and listen free for August: www.patreon.com/mindyourmidlife
Why This Episode Matters
In midlife, healthy sleep isn’t just a luxury—it’s foundational self care. If you’re exhausted, your mindset, mood, and relationships suffer. Midlife isn’t a crisis—it’s a reset. Getting better sleep helps you step fully into your power as a woman over 40 or 50 with energy, clarity, and confidence to take on what’s next.
Text me to ask a question - I'll answer on the podcast!
🌸 Liked this episode? Share it with fellow midlife women over 40 navigating hormone balance, an empty nest, and self-confidence!
🫶 Love this show? Leave a review to help more women over 50 find us.
💡Want support through menopause, mindset shifts, or midlife transitions?
Book a free Mindset Coaching / Intro Call: cherylpfischer.com/coaching, and join us in Midlife Pivot on Patreon.
Let’s talk self-care, self-talk, and owning your next chapter—without the “midlife crisis” narrative.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cheryl Fischer (00:01):
Ah, sleep.
We're sitting at brunch on aSaturday, a few of us friends
sitting around.
What are we talking about?
Sleep?
We're talking about sleep andhow we're waking up at three in
the morning or it's hard to goto sleep, or both.
And we tried this and we triedthat and what worked for you and
what worked for you Sleep.
(00:22):
When I met today's guest, shetold me about her method of
helping her clients with theirsleep issues in midlife and I
was intrigued, so I think youwill be too.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind your Midlife,your go-to resource for
(00:45):
confidence and success.
One thought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and oh my
(01:06):
goodness, powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind your MidlifePodcast.
I confess to you that I do nottypically have a problem falling
asleep and my husband I thinkfor many years has been jealous
(01:26):
of that.
We're working on it for him.
It's getting better for him,but I have always been one to
get in bed and I love to read anovel, something for fun, before
I fall asleep, and then I go tosleep, sleep and then I go to
(01:49):
sleep.
However, as I hit my 50s, Idefinitely noticed that I was
waking up more during the night,and sometimes it's a quick wake
up where I just need to flipover, and maybe you'll recognize
this in yourself as well.
I think maybe our bodies can'tbe in the same position as long
as they used to be able to bewithout moving, so that we don't
get stiff.
So a lot of times I kind ofwake up quickly, I need to flip
(02:11):
over to my other side and then Igo right back to sleep.
But there is often, somewherearound three in the morning, a
time when I wake up and my brainis just going, going, going and
worrying, worrying, worrying.
And my brain is just going,going, going and I'm worrying,
worrying, worrying.
And I have a sort of minimeditation that you heard me
(02:34):
talk about on a previous episode, which I will link in the show
notes, where I talk through howyou relax, kind of from your
toes to your head, and that isusually really helpful.
But why is it happening and areyou trying to treat your sleep
issues with various things.
Have you thought aboutmedication?
Do you not want to do that?
(02:54):
Have you thought about takingsupplements?
Do you not want to do that?
What have you tried?
There's so much out there.
There's so much out there, andmy guest today is going to help
us with some totally free andintriguing concepts related to
sleep.
Morgan Adams is a transformative, holistic sleep coach who works
(03:19):
with midlife women to conquerthat battle with sleepless
nights without relying on sleepmedications.
She herself went through amajor long-term struggle with
insomnia and a dependency onsleeping pills for almost a
decade, so she really gets it.
(03:40):
I am super excited to have thisconversation.
Okay, welcome, morgan.
Thanks for joining me today.
Thanks for having me, cheryl.
I'm looking forward to this,and here's why Sleep is probably
(04:01):
the number one if not numberone close to it topic that
everybody in their 40s and 50sis talking about, and I mean,
even like I go to brunch onSaturday with my friends, we're
still talking about it.
Yes, everywhere we're talkingabout it all the time, and I
know that you have had issuesand you ended up trying sleeping
(04:22):
pills as a solution, so I wantto know more about that.
Tell us about.
Morgan Adams (04:26):
Yeah, well, you're right.
I mean, I did try sleepingpills.
So let me kind of just take youback a while.
This was about 20 years agowhen I went through my bout of
insomnia, and at the time I wasactually working as a
pharmaceutical sales rep, so mycurrency, if you will, was
medications.
It was a very, you know, wellknown thing, and I had insomnia
(04:52):
for a couple of months.
So basically, my issue washaving trouble falling asleep,
which we call sleep onsetinsomnia.
And after a couple months ofthis, I just got fed up and I
went to my primary care doctorand I was given a given a
prescription for Ambien.
So, being that I was inpharmaceutical sales and just a
pill for every ill, if you will,I didn't think anything of it.
(05:14):
So I took the pills.
It did help me get to sleepfaster, but I paid on the back
end pretty badly, with a lot ofgrogginess and brain fog the
next day, and I actually endedup switching careers somewhere
around this point into more of apublic health PR role and I was
(05:35):
responsible for, like writingcopy very quickly on demand,
like snap your fingers and thereshould be copy ready.
And I remember several times inthis job, where I got
reprimanded because, if theyneeded something quickly, my
brain was not.
Basically, my brain was foggyand I had not cleared out the
(05:56):
Ambien from the night before.
And what I came to understandmany years later actually
probably four years ago when Istarted this work in sleep is
that in 2013, the manufacturersof Ambien were asked by the FDA
to change their dosingrequirements for women, because
what they found was that womenwere getting basically double
(06:19):
the dose of men, so they weregetting double doses, which
explains in retrospect why I hadsuch grogginess and foggy brain
at that time.
I didn't really feel fullyalert until lunchtime.
So imagine kind of missing the,you know, the first half of
your day in terms of you'rephysically there, but I guess
(06:39):
they call it presentism You'represent, but you're not really
there.
Cheryl Fischer (06:44):
I didn't know there was a word for that.
Morgan Adams (06:46):
Yeah, there's absenteeism there's present is I
don't know it's.
Basically I was physicallythere at work, but my mind was
like not fully functioning atthis point, right, so yeah, that
is how, like, I started withthe pills.
Cheryl Fischer (07:03):
Well, I'll pause and say I do know of a few
friends of mine who have, andmaybe still do, use Ambien, so
it's interesting how common thatis.
For me, my issue has alwaysbeen waking up around 3am and
not being able to go back tosleep.
I can go back, I can go tosleep at night, so that knock on
(07:24):
wood like that I didn't have.
But I know that this is anissue for people and I have
heard them say exactly whatyou're describing.
I can't like get my headtogether in the morning.
I feel I'm in a fog.
So it sounds like you ended upreally kind of needing that
after a while.
Morgan Adams (07:42):
Yeah, I did.
I mean, I really I becamesomewhat psychologically
dependent on that and maybe toan extent physically dependent
on it I'm not quite sure,because it was so long ago you
know, about 20 years ago that Iwas on them, but I stayed on
them for about eight years, wow.
And what was sort of theimpetus for me stopping the
(08:04):
pills was meeting a guy who ismy husband now.
We were starting to date atthat point and he said to me you
know, when you take those pills, it really freaks me out
because you, you kind of actlike a zombie after you've taken
the pills, which was trueBecause I don't, you know, you
basically I don't know what thecorrect word for us, but you're
kind of zoned out, that's not avery scientific term, but it was
(08:29):
just like I was just not therementally, just not there, and
that really got to me because Iwas like gosh, this may not be
the best solution for thesleeping issues.
So I did what I don't recommendpeople do and I just took myself
off the pills without gettingguidance from my prescribing
provider.
So if you're listening, andyou're on either a sleeping med,
(08:52):
a psychiatric med or really anymed for that matter, and you
want to stop taking them, it'sreally the best thing to get
your physician who's prescribingit to give you some directions
on how to safely titrateyourself off.
But I, you know, just kind ofwent rogue.
I didn't know any better right,and I've got a lot of grit and
(09:13):
determination so I made it workout for me and I was able to get
off the pills, you know, justby just sheer, sheer force of
will.
Cheryl Fischer (09:23):
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that
people should see their doctor,though, because I believe that
can be a tough one to get off ofand it can mess with your head
a little bit.
Morgan Adams (09:33):
Yeah, yes, it definitely can.
And I mean I'm working with alot of women in my practice who
are on the meds on differenttypes of meds some Ambien, some
other meds like benzos, the medson different types of meds some
Ambien, some other meds likebenzos and and I think they come
to me because I share my storyso publicly you know it's on my
website, it's, you know, onpodcast interviews.
(09:53):
It's just like I'm very out outthere with that story because I
think it's so relatable and Ithink there's been sort of a
shaming.
People feel ashamed, like I'vehad clients who come to me
feeling ashamed that they're onpills and I just want to break
that shame because there is noshame.
It's a medication and it'sthere for a reason and anyone
(10:15):
who's listening should not feelbad about themselves because
they're on a sleeping pill orany pill for that matter.
Cheryl Fischer (10:21):
You know what.
I really agree and I had sortof an interesting experience at
a doctor's appointment recentlybecause I am not on any medicine
at the moment.
But the doctor was so shockedat that when I said I'm not on
any medicine.
It made me realize it's very,very common for people to need a
(10:41):
medication for something andyou could argue maybe we're
taking too medication, too manymedications, but there are
medications people really needand no one should feel bad for
that and apparently it's verycommon.
Morgan Adams (10:59):
Very common.
Cheryl Fischer (10:59):
Yeah, you're an anomaly, I'm an anomaly, but to
be in midlife and to be nottaking a medication is is not
the norm, right At all, right Atall, yeah.
So we definitely don't wantanyone to feel bad about, about
whatever it is that you need,now that we're talking midlife a
little bit, let's make thisbigger, because I know that well
from my experience and fromother people I've talked to.
Sleeping is a problem a lot inthe perimenopause period, which
(11:21):
can be years and years and yearsand years and menopause, and it
could be falling asleep, itcould be waking up in the middle
of the night, it could be nightsweats, it could be all these
different things, but it'sdefinitely an issue for a lot of
people.
So you mentioned to me when wewere talking earlier that there
is a treatment that you calledCBT-I that potentially can help.
(11:45):
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Morgan Adams (11:48):
Yes, thank you for mentioning that.
So CBTI is called cognitivebehavioral therapy for insomnia.
It's been around since theeighties, so it's it's sort of
the test of time and it's reallythe gold standard for treating
insomnia, actually abovesleeping pills.
So the American Academy ofPhysicians recommends CBTI over
sleeping pills.
The problem is we don't have alot of people who are
(12:11):
practitioners of CBTI worldwide.
So when you are like someonelike me who went to their
primary care doctor, primarycare doctors, unfortunately in
this country, in the US, areonly getting about two hours of
sleep science training in theirmedical school, so they are not
really given the skills to helpsomebody with insomnia.
(12:33):
Hence here's a list of sleephygiene recommendations, or
here's a prescription for Ambienor fill in the drug of choice.
They quite often don't knowabout CBTI, and so part of what
I like to share is theinformation that it does exist.
There are practitioners outthere, like me, who use CBTI to
help their clients and I callthem clients because I'm a coach
(12:56):
but if you, you know patientsfor people who are in different
practices and basically, in anutshell, what CBTI is?
It's a way to change yourthoughts, behaviors and
attitudes around sleep.
So if you have insomnia, youbasically have one of three
things going on.
(13:16):
You either have a disruption inyour homeostatic drive, which
basically is a fancy way ofsaying you're not sleepy enough,
yet you don't have that sleepdrive built up.
Number two you have some kindof circadian disruption and that
means basically you're sleepingat irregular or inappropriate
times for your body clock.
And then the third is arousal,high level of arousal, and that
(13:39):
could be either physical arousal, like heart beating fast,
breathing heavily.
It could be psychologicalarousal anxieties and worries
and stress, stress or it couldbe conditioned arousal, which is
sort of like going back toPavlov's bell.
Someone who is in conditionedarousal really connects their
(14:01):
bedroom and their bed withanxiety.
And so with CBTI, cbti actuallyworks on all three of those sort
of like underlying reasons forinsomnia.
So it's really effective as atool, general statistics on it
working 70 to 80% of the time itwill be successful in helping
somebody overcome the insomnia.
And what's really great aboutit this is what I love it's that
(14:22):
it's something that doesn'tinvolve any kind of
psychopharmacology orpharmacology at all no meds
involved and there are no sideeffects either.
So, like I shared with my storyabout the Ambien yeah, I did
get to sleep faster, for sure,but the side effects the next
day were just not manageable.
So CBTI does not have thoseside effects, which is wonderful
(14:45):
for people to hear, and ittakes.
You know, it takes varyingamount of time for people to go
through a CBTI protocol, but youknow, a couple of months is
usually sort of the timeframewhere I'm usually able to help
people kind of get over the humpof the insomnia part.
Cheryl Fischer (15:03):
So this is going to probably be a big, huge
question that is impossible toanswer in a podcast episode.
But so somebody who's goingthrough that treatment what
kinds of things are would theyexpect to be doing or trying or
changing, if that makes sense?
Morgan Adams (15:21):
Yeah, so one of the main things so you've got
the behavioral piece and you'vegot the cognitive piece what
really kind of moves the needlethe most is the behavioral
interventions, and so a coupleI'll share a couple of those and
what those are.
So one is called time in bedrestriction.
Okay, so think about somebodywho has insomnia they might be
(15:43):
in bed, physically in bed, for10 hours, but they're only
generating seven hours of sleep.
So what we're actually tryingto do is match the amount of
time in bed with the time thatthey're actually able to
physically generate sleep.
So we want them in bed closerto seven hours than to eight
hours.
So what we end up doing is wesort of compress their window of
(16:04):
sleep-wake schedule tofacilitate that over a period of
several weeks.
So it's the sleep-wake cycle, orthe sleep-wake schedule is sort
of the moving target.
We kind of manipulate it fromweek to week based on how much
sleep they're actually getting.
(16:25):
We're trying to improve theirsleep efficiency, which is the
percentage of time that they'reactually in bed sleeping.
So that looks to be, you know,85% of the time in bed we want
to be sleeping.
So if it's lower than that,we'll manipulate the time in bed
a little bit.
And then there's another strong, strong behavioral component
(16:46):
called stimulus control.
Sounds so very clinical,doesn't it?
Basically and this is somethingprobably a lot of people have
heard before it's a couple ofthings using your bed only for
sleep and intimacy, right.
So there are a lot of peopleout there with insomnia who are
basically setting up shop ontheir bed.
Cheryl Fischer (17:08):
Work read everything, yeah exactly.
Morgan Adams (17:10):
They're doing all the things in their bed, but
they're not sleeping as much intheir bed.
And they're doing all thosethings in bed in hopes of
catching some sleep, like maybeI'm in bed, I'll sleep.
Well, it doesn't quite workthat way.
So we're trying to really kindof limit their time in bed to
the sleeping hours or intimacy.
And then the other piece ofstimulus control is getting out
(17:34):
of bed and doing something ifyou're not able to fall asleep.
So there's varying rules onthis.
I have strayed a little bitfrom the purest rule, the purest
rules.
If you go back to thegrandfathers of CBTI, they will
say if you're not asleep within20 minutes, get up and do
(17:55):
something.
Or if you're awake for morethan 20 minutes.
I don't quite agree with thatrule of 20 minutes because,
number one we don't want youlooking at the clock.
That just creates more sleepanxiety.
And what's so magical about 20minutes?
Cheryl Fischer (18:10):
Right, yeah, I get that.
Yeah, like what 20 minutes?
Who decided that?
Morgan Adams (18:15):
Seems kind of arbitrary.
So really how I use it in mypractice is I say, okay, if
you're lying in bed and you'rebecoming anxious about the fact
that you're not sleeping, you'retossing and turning and feeling
that sort of like.
It's almost like a switch inyour head where you're just like
I'm just not going to sleep.
Like you, just you're like,okay, this is not going to
(18:36):
happen.
That's really a cue to get upand go to another room, ideally,
and do something.
That is and again, this iswhere I veer off from the purist
.
The purist will say do somethingboring.
I don't really think boring isreally what we're looking for.
I think we're looking forsomething just not stimulating,
(18:59):
something that's relaxing andenjoyable, because it shouldn't
be a punishment.
You shouldn't look at that aslike your punishment time being
out of bed.
So ideally it would be reading.
Or I had one client who justdid the loveliest thing she
wrote handwritten greeting cardsto her friends during that
period of time when she couldn'tsleep.
So like she got to, you know,her friends got some nice cards
(19:23):
in the mail.
Like who gets those anymore?
So it's really a matter of justdoing something chill and dim
light until you start to becomesleepy again, and then you go
back to your bed rather thanjust using your bed as the place
for worrying and bed boughtsleep.
Cheryl Fischer (19:37):
Yeah, a couple of things stand out to me from
that.
Number one, just the permissionto get out of bed, I think
maybe is freeing, because, yes,it feels like the opposite would
be true.
That, gosh, once I get out ofbed, forget it, I've lost, we're
done, you know yeah.
I appreciate that you're sayingthat's not the case, and I
(19:58):
don't know what the other thingwas.
Morgan Adams (20:01):
Well, let me.
Let me let, while we're on thatthread, I do want to say that I
have run into this issuesometimes with women who, if
they these are not usually myclients, but they're like people
that I'm just talking with ingeneral, like in presentations
they'll say to me sometimes well, if I can't sleep and I'm awake
(20:21):
at three o'clock, sometimesI'll just get out of bed and
start working.
I'll basically begin my daylike they're essentially
beginning their day.
And I'm always a little bitleery of that, because if you're
, if you're starting yourworkday at three in the morning,
you're basically activatingyour brain.
You're likely in front of somelights, some blue lights, and so
(20:45):
essentially, kind of whatyou're doing to your brain is
you're training it to be up at3am to work like workday started
.
So if you want to extinguishthat behavior, you don't want to
keep doing that.
You don't want to like make ityour workday, you don't want to
put on the pot of coffee.
Oh gosh yeah, If you know, youknow, like you're just training
yourself to have that cyclerepeat night after night.
(21:08):
So anyway, just a slighttangent on things not to do when
you're awake at 3am.
Cheryl Fischer (21:13):
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
I hear you on the dim light,the avoid the blue light and not
get to work, and you're right.
I have heard people say that,well, I may as well just get up
and start my day.
Well, maybe there's a there's atime for that, if it's five or
something.
Right, yeah.
Morgan Adams (21:29):
If it's a little bit or like I can see that if
it's like a little bit earlierthan your normal wake time, the
general rule of thumb is like ifit's 45 minutes before your
wake time, okay, you can get upand start your day, but you
don't want to start it thatearly, unless you want that to
be your workday.
Cheryl Fischer (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, you want to be a shift worker,
because we do get into a habit,for sure.
Morgan Adams (21:48):
Yeah.
Cheryl Fischer (21:49):
So I want to go back to something you said
before that really caught myattention, and that was you said
.
When we were talking aboutpercentage of time in bed
sleeping, you said generatesleep.
Morgan Adams (22:00):
Yes.
Cheryl Fischer (22:00):
And I find that terminology very interesting
because maybe it flips around,it moves us away from this I'm
trying to go to sleep thing tosomething that I don't know how
to put it into words, but anyway, interesting term.
Morgan Adams (22:17):
Yeah, it's well.
You know I don't use that terma whole lot, but it's rather
clinical.
But it's really more like ifyou think about, everyone's body
has the capacity to produce orgenerate a certain amount of
sleep, and yours may bedifferent than mine.
Like you, you might reallyreally need a certain amount and
sleep, and yours may bedifferent than mine.
Like you, you might reallyreally need a certain amount and
I might need less than that.
(22:37):
So that's kind of how I usethat term is generating.
It's just like we have thissleep drive that needs to be
satisfied and that is satisfiedwith our larger chunk of sleep
at night.
Cheryl Fischer (22:52):
And that is satisfied with our larger chunk
of sleep at night.
I just like.
I like that whoever's listeningis hearing that too because I
like this idea that we needmaybe not even need we want to
sleep because that's a part oflife and that's what we need to
do, as opposed to, I think sleepfeels like okay, I did as much
as I could.
Now let me give in, if you knowwhat I mean.
(23:14):
Yeah and yeah.
So I mean, all of us know weshouldn't think about it that
way, but I think we still end upthinking about it that way
Sometimes.
Morgan Adams (23:21):
Yeah, I would agree, I would agree.
Cheryl Fischer (23:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So then the other thing thatstuck with me from a couple of
things that you said was, ifyou're trying to minimize the
amount of time that you're inbed and not sleeping, do people
end up staying up later?
Because I wonder, if that feelslike I don't know how well that
would work, you know.
Morgan Adams (23:43):
Yes, interesting, interesting observation.
Yes, quite often they will endup end up staying a little bit
later Because they're compressed.
They're basically compressingthat time in bed.
So if they go to bed, a lot oftimes people will go to bed at
like I'm just throwing this outat nine, because they always
feel like they need more sleep,because they have insomnia.
(24:05):
So they're like I'm going to goto bed at nine in hopes of
getting extra sleep.
But the problem is is they'renot actually adequately sleepy.
Their sleep drive has not had achance to fully build up over
the course of the day and sothey get in bed at nine o'clock
and they're not really sleepy.
They're just sort of like doingit to kind of check the box.
(24:26):
So in a such so the pure, so thepurist for CBT I keep going
back to the purist because Idon't know there's there's just
some opinions that I have onlike some of the things that
they've done Some of them willhave the client or patient stay
up to like one o'clock in themorning.
Now, I personally don't agreewith that degree of keeping
(24:47):
somebody up for that long,because then you're getting into
the whole circadian rhythmissue and the fact that people
who are staying up so latesometimes suffer ill health
consequences because ourcircadian rhythm, we're diurnal
creatures.
You know we should be sleepingduring the night, right?
So there's a fine, fine linethere that I'm trying to
(25:08):
straddle, and so quite oftenI'll do a little bit more of a
gentle, what I call the sleepcompression.
So if they're going to bed atnine, I might, you know,
challenge them to stay up till10 to get their sleep drive a
lot more, you know, built up sothat they're sleepier.
And what often ends up happeningfor the people who have those
(25:29):
middle of the night wake ups,those wake ups will often
diminish because they'resleeping through them, because
they've really just built uptheir sleep drive Not all the
time, because there's amultitude of reasons for why
people are waking up, but thatoften that going to bed later
can often counterintuitivelyhelp people sleep better.
(25:50):
And then what we'll end updoing sometimes is we'll have
them, you know, go to bed laterand then, once their sleep
efficiency has been built up tolike 85% or more, we'll go back
a little bit gradually, allowingthem like more sleep, maybe
1530 minutes more sleep a weekuntil they kind of get that
sweet spot.
So you're kind of just lookingfor that just real nice,
(26:12):
comfortable sleep schedule thatfits your, that fits you know
your needs for sleep.
Cheryl Fischer (26:17):
Okay, interesting.
Yeah, it's not exactly what Iexpected you to say, which makes
it even more interesting.
Morgan Adams (26:24):
Well, a lot of it is a lot of.
It does seem quitecounterintuitive, and that's the
interesting thing about whenpeople are having sleep issues
like insomnia, some of thecommon sense things that we
might do, such as go to bedearlier and sleep in, they end
up backfiring on us Because,like you know, think I mean I
used to do this all the timewhen I had insomnia and had a
(26:46):
bad night of sleep I'd want tosleep in and that would.
There are a couple problemswith sleeping, and is number one
that that extra sleep, thatextra half hour, is really kind
of fragmented sleep.
It's not your deep sleep, yourrestorative sleep, and by
sleeping in what you're doing isyou're cutting into your sleep
drive for the following night.
So even if you've had a I knowit sounds, it sounds really
(27:08):
unpalatable to hear but ifyou've had a really bad night of
sleep, the best solution is toreally get up at the same time
you're normally getting up evenif you haven't had enough sleep,
because you're allowing thatsleep pressure even more of a
chance to build up.
So you'll, you'll likely, likeyou'll likely, sleep better that
night after a bad night ofsleep, because your body is sort
(27:30):
of going to compensate andreally kind of grab that deep
sleep.
Interesting Quite often not 100%of the time, but that's usually
sort of the pattern that peoplehave.
Cheryl Fischer (27:40):
So that leads me to a question, and this is
completely for me, but maybe, ifyou're listening, this will
affect you as well.
Morgan Adams (27:47):
I'm sure it will, someone out there.
Cheryl Fischer (27:50):
If I've had a long week and I'm just thinking
to myself.
Man plus, I travel a lot.
So if I'm home on the weekend,I'm excited to be home, and I am
excited if I don't have to goanywhere in the morning and I
just want to relax, and so I amso excited that I want to stay
in bed for a little bit longerand sleep a little bit later.
And I know that in general Iprobably shouldn't do that and I
(28:14):
should have similar scheduleevery day, and we're not talking
about until noon, but maybe acouple of hours later.
But I really enjoy it most ofthe time and I find it relaxing
and it's like my treat to myself.
So does the fact that I look atthat in a very positive way
help at all, even though maybe Ishouldn't mess up my schedule?
Morgan Adams (28:39):
You are like a gazillion other women I've
talked to.
Trust me, cheryl, a lot ofpeople are asking this too.
We really want to make surethat we kind of keep the same
schedule on between the weekendand the weekday, because our
bodies and brains don't know thedifference, like our circadian
rhythm can get really misalignedif we stray too far out on the
weekend.
And I mean, in my 30s I wasvery much like this.
I would sleep in way longer andthen suffer the consequences on
(29:03):
Sunday and Monday.
But really so.
But we need to be realistic,right?
So the really the I think thecompromised approach is you can
allow yourself maybe an hourleeway, maybe one day of the
weekend, maybe pick one day ofthe weekend that you're going to
give yourself the extra hourand not feel bad about that.
(29:25):
But let that be it and not letit continue.
So an hour seems to be the safespace to deviate a little bit.
So that might.
It seems to be like the sweet,like the safe space, like to
deviate a little bit.
So that might be something toyou know, just consider.
Cheryl Fischer (29:38):
Yeah, that feels , reasonable for sure.
Morgan Adams (29:41):
And then and then, like you know, to kind of just
kind of elaborate on like thewhole treating yourself like you
should.
You should be treating yourself, you work hard all week.
Maybe you could, you know,allow yourself that extra hour
on a Saturday and then likeextend that treat to like doing
something out of the bed, likegoing going to a coffee shop and
(30:01):
like meeting your friend or youknow, doing something kind of
special to like treat yourself.
But the but, the treatingyourself doesn't necessarily
need to be like over an hourextra hour of sleep.
You know what I mean.
Cheryl Fischer (30:14):
Yes, I like that very much and I appreciate the
perspective that, yes, this ishow we should maybe do it, but
we also want to live our livesin a way that we enjoy, because
the should sometimes are quiteheavy yeah.
Morgan Adams (30:29):
Right, I like that Right.
We don't want to shoot all overourselves all the time.
Exactly exactly.
Cheryl Fischer (30:37):
So the other thing that I really wanted to
ask you is do you have any kindof stories of clients you work
with who've really been able toto solve some of their sleep
issues?
Morgan Adams (30:47):
Absolutely.
There have been quite a few.
I do primarily work with womenin midlife.
I do have a couple of outlyingclients who are in their 30s.
I do see a couple of men.
They usually come to me througha referral, not through my
socials.
(31:08):
But what's really interestingand I didn't expect this to
happen when I first starteddoing this work, but I find it
really interesting that people,in addition to resolving their
insomnia they're all some ofthem are also seeing different
positive side effects.
I had one client who had highblood pressure their blood
pressure reduced like like by 20points from the work and
getting better sleep.
(31:28):
And then I've had other clientstell me that through them.
So I do incorporate somemindfulness work into my
practice and they reported backto me that the mindfulness work
helped with their daytime lifeand managing their relationships
and becoming less reactive,more like.
(31:49):
I had one lady say she becamemore attentive to her children
because of that wholemindfulness piece.
So I think what's just reallyinteresting about doing this
work on, like working on theinsomnia or working on getting
better sleep, is that throughgetting better sleep we're
finding that our daytime lifegets so much richer in many ways
and our health can improve.
(32:10):
I've had clients lose someweight, you know.
Know they came to me notbecause they were overweight,
but like they were just reallyreally wanting better sleep and,
you know, as a byproduct of thebetter sleep, they had fewer
cravings, they had more energyto work out and then they shed a
few pounds.
I mean, I don't operate aweight loss program by any
stretch, but it's justinteresting, little kind of like
(32:33):
extra things that they'regetting from just working on
their sleep.
I find that really fascinatingand something I didn't really
anticipate happening when Ifirst set off on this journey.
Cheryl Fischer (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's it.
That's really cool.
I mean, we all love the idea oflosing a little bit of weight
without having to try reallyhard.
Well, maybe they were tryingwhy you sleep.
Please wait while you sleep.
Yeah, exactly, I always saythis, and it continues to be
(33:05):
true that every topic that wetalk about in terms of midlife
seems to be revolving around wejust need to take a little bit
better care of, better care ofourselves.
I think we could fall into bedwhen we were in our 20s and like
whatever we got sleep, but wedidn't, but we were fine the
(33:26):
next day anyway, and it's just alittle.
We need a little bit more focuson taking care of ourselves now
.
Morgan Adams (33:32):
Agreed.
Yeah, great, great way to sayit.
Absolutely, we're just, we'renot quite as resilient with our
sleep system at this age.
We kind of need to baby it, butwe don't want to get, but on
the other hand we don't want toget too overprotective.
There's this again.
There's this fine line, youknow, because over focusing on
it can sometimes make theproblems worse.
So it's just that very delicatedance between paying attention
(33:55):
to it and letting it kind ofhappen as it will.
Cheryl Fischer (33:58):
Right, yes.
Morgan Adams (33:59):
I agree.
Cheryl Fischer (34:00):
So I'm going to ask you kind of my last big
question, but first, so I don'tforget, where can people find
you if they want to learn moreabout what you do or they want
to connect with you?
Morgan Adams (34:10):
Sure the best place to go would be my website,
morgan Adams wellnesscom.
There you will find theopportunity to schedule a
discovery call to see if youwant to potentially work
together to help your sleep.
You know, offer the sleepcoaching one to one.
And then there's a really coolguide on my website that's
relatively new and it's calledawake again at 3am your guide to
(34:32):
why you're waking up and whatto do about it.
You can download that guide forfree and it's got all sorts of
tips on the origins of the 3amwake ups, what to do about it,
what not to do.
So it's a great resource forpeople who are like having those
consistent middle of the nightwake ups.
Cheryl Fischer (34:48):
Isn't it funny how it's always 3am.
Morgan Adams (34:54):
Quite often it is.
Cheryl Fischer (34:56):
What is it about 3am?
Is there a particular thingabout that timing?
Morgan Adams (35:01):
That's so funny.
My sister actually texted methis earlier just an hour ago.
Well, yeah, there are manydifferent things and I go
through a lot of it in the guide, but there's something about
cortisol spiking potentially alittle bit too early.
There's overheating, there'spotentially sleep breathing
(35:22):
issues.
Cheryl Fischer (35:24):
Yeah, just a few to ponder yeah, very
interesting.
Okay, well, I'll get that guideand if you're listening, you
need to get that for sure.
I think that that is certainlya common thing that I hear women
talk about, absolutely.
So let's say that somebody hasbeen listening to our discussion
and is trying to remember allthe things and found it very
(35:45):
interesting.
I always say you know what?
We're not going to be able toremember everything.
Of course you can go back andlisten again, but what is the
one thing that, oh, my goodness,I have to remember?
This OMG thing that you wantsomebody listening to remember
from today.
Morgan Adams (36:00):
OK, I think it would be this, and I say this
because it's been impactful forall my clients, and I say this
on all the podcasts I'm on and Ihave.
People will literally DM me andbe like that tip worked.
So are you ready?
Cheryl Fischer (36:14):
I'm ready.
Morgan Adams (36:15):
It's so.
I love it.
It's getting the natural lightin the morning because so many
people aren't doing it.
So many people are reallystaying inside, not getting out
for a while.
Maybe they work from home andthey don't even bother to go
outside.
So just really like, if you'renot used to this, like going
outside in the morning, startwith 10 minutes.
If you don't want to move, ifyou don't want to actually take
(36:36):
a walk, just sit on your porchand just sip your coffee.
If you want to do that too, youdon't have to, like, go on a 30
minute walk.
Just little, little incrementslike this can really make a
difference.
So that's what I would say Ifyou are wanting to try one thing
, and it's free, like no moneyis to be made on this.
Cheryl Fischer (36:58):
Well, you know what our brains argue with us,
don't they?
Because, as you said, that Iwas thinking okay, so I guess I
would have to put clothes on andthen I would go and get my tea,
because if I go outside in mypajamas that's a bit weird.
But you know what?
All that can be worked out.
It can be worked out, yeah.
Morgan Adams (37:15):
And I mean, if you have I mean not everyone has
the same living situations, ofcourse but like sometimes I'll
go out in my robe and sit on alawn chair in my backyard no one
can see me Right and I'm likejust as happy as a clam just
sitting there sipping my coffee.
I look crazy because I've got,like you know, disheveled hair
and a robe on and I look nuts.
(37:35):
But, like you know, I'm getting, I'm getting those that light
exposure and that just reallyhelps just my mood and my energy
and helps set me up for abetter night of sleep.
So I just can't speak moreabout about that.
It's just such a big thing.
Cheryl Fischer (37:48):
Well, I'm definitely gonna try it.
I definitely open the windowsand I look out in the morning,
but I will try going outside.
I love that.
Yeah let me know.
Yeah, absolutely Well, Morgan,thank you so much for joining me
today.
I know people are going to geta lot out of this episode.
Morgan Adams (38:04):
You're welcome.
Thanks for inviting me.
Cheryl Fischer (38:06):
I love Morgan's OMG moment tip Go outside in the
morning, even for 10 minutesand, interestingly, after we hit
the stop button on therecording, I told Morgan that I
do try to make sure I'm lookingout the window in the morning,
but I haven't been going outside.
And she said here's the issue.
(38:27):
A lot of our modern windowshave glass that is treated with
some sort of filter filteringthe rays so that they don't fade
the furniture or don't heat thehouse as much or all of those
things that are really goodthings, but our eyes are not
necessarily getting the light inthe same way that they would as
if we went outside.
Maybe a screen porch would beokay as well, if that's what you
(38:50):
have.
So very interesting tip and Iwould love to hear from you on
social media, cheryl P Fisher,on all the socials.
I would love to hear from youif you try this going outside
first thing in the morning andif you see a difference, and I
know Morgan would love to hearfrom you as well.
So I hope that this makes adifference in your life Because,
(39:12):
as one of my guests on thepodcast from a few months ago,
lynn Bowman, who is 79, saidlove your sleep.
Stop whining about your sleep.
Love your sleep.
Stop whining about your sleep.
Maybe we'll all try to live upto that.
Make sure that you havesubscribed to Midlife Pivot on
Patreon, because Morgan and Italked about three different
(39:33):
tips that you can implementright away that may help your
sleep, that are totally free, soyou will want to catch that
over on the Patreon community.
Go to patreoncom.
Slash mind your midlife andover the next few weeks we've
got some tapping practices inPatreon that I'm sharing with
you, that you can use anytime toget through limiting beliefs,
(39:57):
to deal with your fear of takingaction.
Some amazing treats for you.
So I'll see you there and inthe meantime, slow down, notice
what's going on around you,what's going on in your head,
and let's create somethingamazing.
Ah, sleep.
We're sitting at brunch on aSaturday, a few of us friends
sitting around.
What are we talking about?
Sleep?
We're talking about sleep andhow we're waking up at three in
the morning or it's hard to goto sleep, or both.
And we tried this and we triedthat and what worked for you and
what worked for you Sleep.
(00:22):
When I met today's guest, shetold me about her method of
helping her clients with theirsleep issues in midlife and I
was intrigued, so I think youwill be too.
Let's talk about it.
Welcome to Mind your Midlife,your go-to resource for
(00:45):
confidence and success.
One thought at a time.
Unlike most advice out there,we believe that simply telling
you to believe in yourself orchange your habits isn't enough
to wake up excited about life orfeel truly confident in your
body.
Each week, you'll gainactionable strategies and oh my
(01:06):
goodness, powerful insights tostop feeling stuck and start
loving your midlife.
This is the Mind your MidlifePodcast.
I confess to you that I do nottypically have a problem falling
asleep and my husband I thinkfor many years has been jealous
(01:26):
of that.
We're working on it for him.
It's getting better for him,but I have always been one to
get in bed and I love to read anovel, something for fun, before
I fall asleep, and then I go tosleep, sleep and then I go to
(01:49):
sleep.
However, as I hit my 50s, Idefinitely noticed that I was
waking up more during the night,and sometimes it's a quick wake
up where I just need to flipover, and maybe you'll recognize
this in yourself as well.
I think maybe our bodies can'tbe in the same position as long
as they used to be able to bewithout moving, so that we don't
get stiff.
So a lot of times I kind ofwake up quickly, I need to flip
(02:11):
over to my other side and then Igo right back to sleep.
But there is often, somewherearound three in the morning, a
time when I wake up and my brainis just going, going, going and
worrying, worrying, worrying.
And my brain is just going,going, going and I'm worrying,
worrying, worrying.
And I have a sort of minimeditation that you heard me
(02:34):
talk about on a previous episode, which I will link in the show
notes, where I talk through howyou relax, kind of from your
toes to your head, and that isusually really helpful.
But why is it happening and areyou trying to treat your sleep
issues with various things.
Have you thought aboutmedication?
Do you not want to do that?
(02:54):
Have you thought about takingsupplements?
Do you not want to do that?
What have you tried?
There's so much out there.
There's so much out there, andmy guest today is going to help
us with some totally free andintriguing concepts related to
sleep.
Morgan Adams is a transformative, holistic sleep coach who works
(03:19):
with midlife women to conquerthat battle with sleepless
nights without relying on sleepmedications.
She herself went through amajor long-term struggle with
insomnia and a dependency onsleeping pills for almost a
decade, so she really gets it.
(03:40):
I am super excited to have thisconversation.
Okay, welcome, morgan.
Thanks for joining me today.
Thanks for having me, cheryl.
I'm looking forward to this,and here's why Sleep is probably
(04:01):
the number one if not numberone close to it topic that
everybody in their 40s and 50sis talking about, and I mean,
even like I go to brunch onSaturday with my friends, we're
still talking about it.
Yes, everywhere we're talkingabout it all the time, and I
know that you have had issuesand you ended up trying sleeping
(04:22):
pills as a solution, so I wantto know more about that.
Tell us about.
Morgan Adams (04:26):
Yeah, well, you're right.
I mean, I did try sleepingpills.
So let me kind of just take youback a while.
This was about 20 years agowhen I went through my bout of
insomnia, and at the time I wasactually working as a
pharmaceutical sales rep, so mycurrency, if you will, was
medications.
It was a very, you know, wellknown thing, and I had insomnia
(04:52):
for a couple of months.
So basically, my issue washaving trouble falling asleep,
which we call sleep onsetinsomnia.
And after a couple months ofthis, I just got fed up and I
went to my primary care doctorand I was given a given a
prescription for Ambien.
So, being that I was inpharmaceutical sales and just a
pill for every ill, if you will,I didn't think anything of it.
(05:14):
So I took the pills.
It did help me get to sleepfaster, but I paid on the back
end pretty badly, with a lot ofgrogginess and brain fog the
next day, and I actually endedup switching careers somewhere
around this point into more of apublic health PR role and I was
(05:35):
responsible for, like writingcopy very quickly on demand,
like snap your fingers and thereshould be copy ready.
And I remember several times inthis job, where I got
reprimanded because, if theyneeded something quickly, my
brain was not.
Basically, my brain was foggyand I had not cleared out the
(05:56):
Ambien from the night before.
And what I came to understandmany years later actually
probably four years ago when Istarted this work in sleep is
that in 2013, the manufacturersof Ambien were asked by the FDA
to change their dosingrequirements for women, because
what they found was that womenwere getting basically double
(06:19):
the dose of men, so they weregetting double doses, which
explains in retrospect why I hadsuch grogginess and foggy brain
at that time.
I didn't really feel fullyalert until lunchtime.
So imagine kind of missing the,you know, the first half of
your day in terms of you'rephysically there, but I guess
(06:39):
they call it presentism You'represent, but you're not really
there.
Cheryl Fischer (06:44):
I didn't know there was a word for that.
Morgan Adams (06:46):
Yeah, there's absenteeism there's present is I
don't know it's.
Basically I was physicallythere at work, but my mind was
like not fully functioning atthis point, right, so yeah, that
is how, like, I started withthe pills.
Cheryl Fischer (07:03):
Well, I'll pause and say I do know of a few
friends of mine who have, andmaybe still do, use Ambien, so
it's interesting how common thatis.
For me, my issue has alwaysbeen waking up around 3am and
not being able to go back tosleep.
I can go back, I can go tosleep at night, so that knock on
(07:24):
wood like that I didn't have.
But I know that this is anissue for people and I have
heard them say exactly whatyou're describing.
I can't like get my headtogether in the morning.
I feel I'm in a fog.
So it sounds like you ended upreally kind of needing that
after a while.
Morgan Adams (07:42):
Yeah, I did.
I mean, I really I becamesomewhat psychologically
dependent on that and maybe toan extent physically dependent
on it I'm not quite sure,because it was so long ago you
know, about 20 years ago that Iwas on them, but I stayed on
them for about eight years, wow.
And what was sort of theimpetus for me stopping the
(08:04):
pills was meeting a guy who ismy husband now.
We were starting to date atthat point and he said to me you
know, when you take those pills, it really freaks me out
because you, you kind of actlike a zombie after you've taken
the pills, which was trueBecause I don't, you know, you
basically I don't know what thecorrect word for us, but you're
kind of zoned out, that's not avery scientific term, but it was
(08:29):
just like I was just not therementally, just not there, and
that really got to me because Iwas like gosh, this may not be
the best solution for thesleeping issues.
So I did what I don't recommendpeople do and I just took myself
off the pills without gettingguidance from my prescribing
provider.
So if you're listening, andyou're on either a sleeping med,
(08:52):
a psychiatric med or really anymed for that matter, and you
want to stop taking them, it'sreally the best thing to get
your physician who's prescribingit to give you some directions
on how to safely titrateyourself off.
But I, you know, just kind ofwent rogue.
I didn't know any better right,and I've got a lot of grit and
(09:13):
determination so I made it workout for me and I was able to get
off the pills, you know, justby just sheer, sheer force of
will.
Cheryl Fischer (09:23):
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that
people should see their doctor,though, because I believe that
can be a tough one to get off ofand it can mess with your head
a little bit.
Morgan Adams (09:33):
Yeah, yes, it definitely can.
And I mean I'm working with alot of women in my practice who
are on the meds on differenttypes of meds some Ambien, some
other meds like benzos, the medson different types of meds some
Ambien, some other meds likebenzos and and I think they come
to me because I share my storyso publicly you know it's on my
website, it's, you know, onpodcast interviews.
(09:53):
It's just like I'm very out outthere with that story because I
think it's so relatable and Ithink there's been sort of a
shaming.
People feel ashamed, like I'vehad clients who come to me
feeling ashamed that they're onpills and I just want to break
that shame because there is noshame.
It's a medication and it'sthere for a reason and anyone
(10:15):
who's listening should not feelbad about themselves because
they're on a sleeping pill orany pill for that matter.
Cheryl Fischer (10:21):
You know what.
I really agree and I had sortof an interesting experience at
a doctor's appointment recentlybecause I am not on any medicine
at the moment.
But the doctor was so shockedat that when I said I'm not on
any medicine.
It made me realize it's very,very common for people to need a
(10:41):
medication for something andyou could argue maybe we're
taking too medication, too manymedications, but there are
medications people really needand no one should feel bad for
that and apparently it's verycommon.
Morgan Adams (10:59):
Very common.
Cheryl Fischer (10:59):
Yeah, you're an anomaly, I'm an anomaly, but to
be in midlife and to be nottaking a medication is is not
the norm, right At all, right Atall, yeah.
So we definitely don't wantanyone to feel bad about, about
whatever it is that you need,now that we're talking midlife a
little bit, let's make thisbigger, because I know that well
from my experience and fromother people I've talked to.
Sleeping is a problem a lot inthe perimenopause period, which
(11:21):
can be years and years and yearsand years and menopause, and it
could be falling asleep, itcould be waking up in the middle
of the night, it could be nightsweats, it could be all these
different things, but it'sdefinitely an issue for a lot of
people.
So you mentioned to me when wewere talking earlier that there
is a treatment that you calledCBT-I that potentially can help.
(11:45):
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Morgan Adams (11:48):
Yes, thank you for mentioning that.
So CBTI is called cognitivebehavioral therapy for insomnia.
It's been around since theeighties, so it's it's sort of
the test of time and it's reallythe gold standard for treating
insomnia, actually abovesleeping pills.
So the American Academy ofPhysicians recommends CBTI over
sleeping pills.
The problem is we don't have alot of people who are
(12:11):
practitioners of CBTI worldwide.
So when you are like someonelike me who went to their
primary care doctor, primarycare doctors, unfortunately in
this country, in the US, areonly getting about two hours of
sleep science training in theirmedical school, so they are not
really given the skills to helpsomebody with insomnia.
(12:33):
Hence here's a list of sleephygiene recommendations, or
here's a prescription for Ambienor fill in the drug of choice.
They quite often don't knowabout CBTI, and so part of what
I like to share is theinformation that it does exist.
There are practitioners outthere, like me, who use CBTI to
help their clients and I callthem clients because I'm a coach
(12:56):
but if you, you know patientsfor people who are in different
practices and basically, in anutshell, what CBTI is?
It's a way to change yourthoughts, behaviors and
attitudes around sleep.
So if you have insomnia, youbasically have one of three
things going on.
(13:16):
You either have a disruption inyour homeostatic drive, which
basically is a fancy way ofsaying you're not sleepy enough,
yet you don't have that sleepdrive built up.
Number two you have some kindof circadian disruption and that
means basically you're sleepingat irregular or inappropriate
times for your body clock.
And then the third is arousal,high level of arousal, and that
(13:39):
could be either physical arousal, like heart beating fast,
breathing heavily.
It could be psychologicalarousal anxieties and worries
and stress, stress or it couldbe conditioned arousal, which is
sort of like going back toPavlov's bell.
Someone who is in conditionedarousal really connects their
(14:01):
bedroom and their bed withanxiety.
And so with CBTI, cbti actuallyworks on all three of those sort
of like underlying reasons forinsomnia.
So it's really effective as atool, general statistics on it
working 70 to 80% of the time itwill be successful in helping
somebody overcome the insomnia.
And what's really great aboutit this is what I love it's that
(14:22):
it's something that doesn'tinvolve any kind of
psychopharmacology orpharmacology at all no meds
involved and there are no sideeffects either.
So, like I shared with my storyabout the Ambien yeah, I did
get to sleep faster, for sure,but the side effects the next
day were just not manageable.
So CBTI does not have thoseside effects, which is wonderful
(14:45):
for people to hear, and ittakes.
You know, it takes varyingamount of time for people to go
through a CBTI protocol, but youknow, a couple of months is
usually sort of the timeframewhere I'm usually able to help
people kind of get over the humpof the insomnia part.
Cheryl Fischer (15:03):
So this is going to probably be a big, huge
question that is impossible toanswer in a podcast episode.
But so somebody who's goingthrough that treatment what
kinds of things are would theyexpect to be doing or trying or
changing, if that makes sense?
Morgan Adams (15:21):
Yeah, so one of the main things so you've got
the behavioral piece and you'vegot the cognitive piece what
really kind of moves the needlethe most is the behavioral
interventions, and so a coupleI'll share a couple of those and
what those are.
So one is called time in bedrestriction.
Okay, so think about somebodywho has insomnia they might be
(15:43):
in bed, physically in bed, for10 hours, but they're only
generating seven hours of sleep.
So what we're actually tryingto do is match the amount of
time in bed with the time thatthey're actually able to
physically generate sleep.
So we want them in bed closerto seven hours than to eight
hours.
So what we end up doing is wesort of compress their window of
(16:04):
sleep-wake schedule tofacilitate that over a period of
several weeks.
So it's the sleep-wake cycle, orthe sleep-wake schedule is sort
of the moving target.
We kind of manipulate it fromweek to week based on how much
sleep they're actually getting.
(16:25):
We're trying to improve theirsleep efficiency, which is the
percentage of time that they'reactually in bed sleeping.
So that looks to be, you know,85% of the time in bed we want
to be sleeping.
So if it's lower than that,we'll manipulate the time in bed
a little bit.
And then there's another strong, strong behavioral component
(16:46):
called stimulus control.
Sounds so very clinical,doesn't it?
Basically and this is somethingprobably a lot of people have
heard before it's a couple ofthings using your bed only for
sleep and intimacy, right.
So there are a lot of peopleout there with insomnia who are
basically setting up shop ontheir bed.
Cheryl Fischer (17:08):
Work read everything, yeah exactly.
Morgan Adams (17:10):
They're doing all the things in their bed, but
they're not sleeping as much intheir bed.
And they're doing all thosethings in bed in hopes of
catching some sleep, like maybeI'm in bed, I'll sleep.
Well, it doesn't quite workthat way.
So we're trying to really kindof limit their time in bed to
the sleeping hours or intimacy.
And then the other piece ofstimulus control is getting out
(17:34):
of bed and doing something ifyou're not able to fall asleep.
So there's varying rules onthis.
I have strayed a little bitfrom the purest rule, the purest
rules.
If you go back to thegrandfathers of CBTI, they will
say if you're not asleep within20 minutes, get up and do
(17:55):
something.
Or if you're awake for morethan 20 minutes.
I don't quite agree with thatrule of 20 minutes because,
number one we don't want youlooking at the clock.
That just creates more sleepanxiety.
And what's so magical about 20minutes?
Cheryl Fischer (18:10):
Right, yeah, I get that.
Yeah, like what 20 minutes?
Who decided that?
Morgan Adams (18:15):
Seems kind of arbitrary.
So really how I use it in mypractice is I say, okay, if
you're lying in bed and you'rebecoming anxious about the fact
that you're not sleeping, you'retossing and turning and feeling
that sort of like.
It's almost like a switch inyour head where you're just like
I'm just not going to sleep.
Like you, just you're like,okay, this is not going to
(18:36):
happen.
That's really a cue to get upand go to another room, ideally,
and do something.
That is and again, this iswhere I veer off from the purist
.
The purist will say do somethingboring.
I don't really think boring isreally what we're looking for.
I think we're looking forsomething just not stimulating,
(18:59):
something that's relaxing andenjoyable, because it shouldn't
be a punishment.
You shouldn't look at that aslike your punishment time being
out of bed.
So ideally it would be reading.
Or I had one client who justdid the loveliest thing she
wrote handwritten greeting cardsto her friends during that
period of time when she couldn'tsleep.
So like she got to, you know,her friends got some nice cards
(19:23):
in the mail.
Like who gets those anymore?
So it's really a matter of justdoing something chill and dim
light until you start to becomesleepy again, and then you go
back to your bed rather thanjust using your bed as the place
for worrying and bed boughtsleep.
Cheryl Fischer (19:37):
Yeah, a couple of things stand out to me from
that.
Number one, just the permissionto get out of bed, I think
maybe is freeing, because, yes,it feels like the opposite would
be true.
That, gosh, once I get out ofbed, forget it, I've lost, we're
done, you know yeah.
I appreciate that you're sayingthat's not the case, and I
(19:58):
don't know what the other thingwas.
Morgan Adams (20:01):
Well, let me.
Let me let, while we're on thatthread, I do want to say that I
have run into this issuesometimes with women who, if
they these are not usually myclients, but they're like people
that I'm just talking with ingeneral, like in presentations
they'll say to me sometimes well, if I can't sleep and I'm awake
(20:21):
at three o'clock, sometimesI'll just get out of bed and
start working.
I'll basically begin my daylike they're essentially
beginning their day.
And I'm always a little bitleery of that, because if you're
, if you're starting yourworkday at three in the morning,
you're basically activatingyour brain.
You're likely in front of somelights, some blue lights, and so
(20:45):
essentially, kind of whatyou're doing to your brain is
you're training it to be up at3am to work like workday started
.
So if you want to extinguishthat behavior, you don't want to
keep doing that.
You don't want to like make ityour workday, you don't want to
put on the pot of coffee.
Oh gosh yeah, If you know, youknow, like you're just training
yourself to have that cyclerepeat night after night.
(21:08):
So anyway, just a slighttangent on things not to do when
you're awake at 3am.
Cheryl Fischer (21:13):
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
I hear you on the dim light,the avoid the blue light and not
get to work, and you're right.
I have heard people say that,well, I may as well just get up
and start my day.
Well, maybe there's a there's atime for that, if it's five or
something.
Right, yeah.
Morgan Adams (21:29):
If it's a little bit or like I can see that if
it's like a little bit earlierthan your normal wake time, the
general rule of thumb is like ifit's 45 minutes before your
wake time, okay, you can get upand start your day, but you
don't want to start it thatearly, unless you want that to
be your workday.
Cheryl Fischer (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, you want to be a shift worker,
because we do get into a habit,for sure.
Morgan Adams (21:48):
Yeah.
Cheryl Fischer (21:49):
So I want to go back to something you said
before that really caught myattention, and that was you said
.
When we were talking aboutpercentage of time in bed
sleeping, you said generatesleep.
Morgan Adams (22:00):
Yes.
Cheryl Fischer (22:00):
And I find that terminology very interesting
because maybe it flips around,it moves us away from this I'm
trying to go to sleep thing tosomething that I don't know how
to put it into words, but anyway, interesting term.
Morgan Adams (22:17):
Yeah, it's well.
You know I don't use that terma whole lot, but it's rather
clinical.
But it's really more like ifyou think about, everyone's body
has the capacity to produce orgenerate a certain amount of
sleep, and yours may bedifferent than mine.
Like you, you might reallyreally need a certain amount and
sleep, and yours may bedifferent than mine.
Like you, you might reallyreally need a certain amount and
I might need less than that.
(22:37):
So that's kind of how I usethat term is generating.
It's just like we have thissleep drive that needs to be
satisfied and that is satisfiedwith our larger chunk of sleep
at night.
Cheryl Fischer (22:52):
And that is satisfied with our larger chunk
of sleep at night.
I just like.
I like that whoever's listeningis hearing that too because I
like this idea that we needmaybe not even need we want to
sleep because that's a part oflife and that's what we need to
do, as opposed to, I think sleepfeels like okay, I did as much
as I could.
Now let me give in, if you knowwhat I mean.
(23:14):
Yeah and yeah.
So I mean, all of us know weshouldn't think about it that
way, but I think we still end upthinking about it that way
Sometimes.
Morgan Adams (23:21):
Yeah, I would agree, I would agree.
Cheryl Fischer (23:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So then the other thing thatstuck with me from a couple of
things that you said was, ifyou're trying to minimize the
amount of time that you're inbed and not sleeping, do people
end up staying up later?
Because I wonder, if that feelslike I don't know how well that
would work, you know.
Morgan Adams (23:43):
Yes, interesting, interesting observation.
Yes, quite often they will endup end up staying a little bit
later Because they're compressed.
They're basically compressingthat time in bed.
So if they go to bed, a lot oftimes people will go to bed at
like I'm just throwing this outat nine, because they always
feel like they need more sleep,because they have insomnia.
(24:05):
So they're like I'm going to goto bed at nine in hopes of
getting extra sleep.
But the problem is is they'renot actually adequately sleepy.
Their sleep drive has not had achance to fully build up over
the course of the day and sothey get in bed at nine o'clock
and they're not really sleepy.
They're just sort of like doingit to kind of check the box.
(24:26):
So in a such so the pure, so thepurist for CBT I keep going
back to the purist because Idon't know there's there's just
some opinions that I have onlike some of the things that
they've done Some of them willhave the client or patient stay
up to like one o'clock in themorning.
Now, I personally don't agreewith that degree of keeping
(24:47):
somebody up for that long,because then you're getting into
the whole circadian rhythmissue and the fact that people
who are staying up so latesometimes suffer ill health
consequences because ourcircadian rhythm, we're diurnal
creatures.
You know we should be sleepingduring the night, right?
So there's a fine, fine linethere that I'm trying to
(25:08):
straddle, and so quite oftenI'll do a little bit more of a
gentle, what I call the sleepcompression.
So if they're going to bed atnine, I might, you know,
challenge them to stay up till10 to get their sleep drive a
lot more, you know, built up sothat they're sleepier.
And what often ends up happeningfor the people who have those
(25:29):
middle of the night wake ups,those wake ups will often
diminish because they'resleeping through them, because
they've really just built uptheir sleep drive Not all the
time, because there's amultitude of reasons for why
people are waking up, but thatoften that going to bed later
can often counterintuitivelyhelp people sleep better.
(25:50):
And then what we'll end updoing sometimes is we'll have
them, you know, go to bed laterand then, once their sleep
efficiency has been built up tolike 85% or more, we'll go back
a little bit gradually, allowingthem like more sleep, maybe
1530 minutes more sleep a weekuntil they kind of get that
sweet spot.
So you're kind of just lookingfor that just real nice,
(26:12):
comfortable sleep schedule thatfits your, that fits you know
your needs for sleep.
Cheryl Fischer (26:17):
Okay, interesting.
Yeah, it's not exactly what Iexpected you to say, which makes
it even more interesting.
Morgan Adams (26:24):
Well, a lot of it is a lot of.
It does seem quitecounterintuitive, and that's the
interesting thing about whenpeople are having sleep issues
like insomnia, some of thecommon sense things that we
might do, such as go to bedearlier and sleep in, they end
up backfiring on us Because,like you know, think I mean I
used to do this all the timewhen I had insomnia and had a
(26:46):
bad night of sleep I'd want tosleep in and that would.
There are a couple problemswith sleeping, and is number one
that that extra sleep, thatextra half hour, is really kind
of fragmented sleep.
It's not your deep sleep, yourrestorative sleep, and by
sleeping in what you're doing isyou're cutting into your sleep
drive for the following night.
So even if you've had a I knowit sounds, it sounds really
(27:08):
unpalatable to hear but ifyou've had a really bad night of
sleep, the best solution is toreally get up at the same time
you're normally getting up evenif you haven't had enough sleep,
because you're allowing thatsleep pressure even more of a
chance to build up.
So you'll, you'll likely, likeyou'll likely, sleep better that
night after a bad night ofsleep, because your body is sort
(27:30):
of going to compensate andreally kind of grab that deep
sleep.
Interesting Quite often not 100%of the time, but that's usually
sort of the pattern that peoplehave.
Cheryl Fischer (27:40):
So that leads me to a question, and this is
completely for me, but maybe, ifyou're listening, this will
affect you as well.
Morgan Adams (27:47):
I'm sure it will, someone out there.
Cheryl Fischer (27:50):
If I've had a long week and I'm just thinking
to myself.
Man plus, I travel a lot.
So if I'm home on the weekend,I'm excited to be home, and I am
excited if I don't have to goanywhere in the morning and I
just want to relax, and so I amso excited that I want to stay
in bed for a little bit longerand sleep a little bit later.
And I know that in general Iprobably shouldn't do that and I
(28:14):
should have similar scheduleevery day, and we're not talking
about until noon, but maybe acouple of hours later.
But I really enjoy it most ofthe time and I find it relaxing
and it's like my treat to myself.
So does the fact that I look atthat in a very positive way
help at all, even though maybe Ishouldn't mess up my schedule?
Morgan Adams (28:39):
You are like a gazillion other women I've
talked to.
Trust me, cheryl, a lot ofpeople are asking this too.
We really want to make surethat we kind of keep the same
schedule on between the weekendand the weekday, because our
bodies and brains don't know thedifference, like our circadian
rhythm can get really misalignedif we stray too far out on the
weekend.
And I mean, in my 30s I wasvery much like this.
I would sleep in way longer andthen suffer the consequences on
(29:03):
Sunday and Monday.
But really so.
But we need to be realistic,right?
So the really the I think thecompromised approach is you can
allow yourself maybe an hourleeway, maybe one day of the
weekend, maybe pick one day ofthe weekend that you're going to
give yourself the extra hourand not feel bad about that.
(29:25):
But let that be it and not letit continue.
So an hour seems to be the safespace to deviate a little bit.
So that might.
It seems to be like the sweet,like the safe space, like to
deviate a little bit.
So that might be something toyou know, just consider.
Cheryl Fischer (29:38):
Yeah, that feels , reasonable for sure.
Morgan Adams (29:41):
And then and then, like you know, to kind of just
kind of elaborate on like thewhole treating yourself like you
should.
You should be treating yourself, you work hard all week.
Maybe you could, you know,allow yourself that extra hour
on a Saturday and then likeextend that treat to like doing
something out of the bed, likegoing going to a coffee shop and
(30:01):
like meeting your friend or youknow, doing something kind of
special to like treat yourself.
But the but, the treatingyourself doesn't necessarily
need to be like over an hourextra hour of sleep.
You know what I mean.
Cheryl Fischer (30:14):
Yes, I like that very much and I appreciate the
perspective that, yes, this ishow we should maybe do it, but
we also want to live our livesin a way that we enjoy, because
the should sometimes are quiteheavy yeah.
Morgan Adams (30:29):
Right, I like that Right.
We don't want to shoot all overourselves all the time.
Exactly exactly.
Cheryl Fischer (30:37):
So the other thing that I really wanted to
ask you is do you have any kindof stories of clients you work
with who've really been able toto solve some of their sleep
issues?
Morgan Adams (30:47):
Absolutely.
There have been quite a few.
I do primarily work with womenin midlife.
I do have a couple of outlyingclients who are in their 30s.
I do see a couple of men.
They usually come to me througha referral, not through my
socials.
(31:08):
But what's really interestingand I didn't expect this to
happen when I first starteddoing this work, but I find it
really interesting that people,in addition to resolving their
insomnia they're all some ofthem are also seeing different
positive side effects.
I had one client who had highblood pressure their blood
pressure reduced like like by 20points from the work and
getting better sleep.
(31:28):
And then I've had other clientstell me that through them.
So I do incorporate somemindfulness work into my
practice and they reported backto me that the mindfulness work
helped with their daytime lifeand managing their relationships
and becoming less reactive,more like.
(31:49):
I had one lady say she becamemore attentive to her children
because of that wholemindfulness piece.
So I think what's just reallyinteresting about doing this
work on, like working on theinsomnia or working on getting
better sleep, is that throughgetting better sleep we're
finding that our daytime lifegets so much richer in many ways
and our health can improve.
(32:10):
I've had clients lose someweight, you know.
Know they came to me notbecause they were overweight,
but like they were just reallyreally wanting better sleep and,
you know, as a byproduct of thebetter sleep, they had fewer
cravings, they had more energyto work out and then they shed a
few pounds.
I mean, I don't operate aweight loss program by any
stretch, but it's justinteresting, little kind of like
(32:33):
extra things that they'regetting from just working on
their sleep.
I find that really fascinatingand something I didn't really
anticipate happening when Ifirst set off on this journey.
Cheryl Fischer (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's it.
That's really cool.
I mean, we all love the idea oflosing a little bit of weight
without having to try reallyhard.
Well, maybe they were tryingwhy you sleep.
Please wait while you sleep.
Yeah, exactly, I always saythis, and it continues to be
(33:05):
true that every topic that wetalk about in terms of midlife
seems to be revolving around wejust need to take a little bit
better care of, better care ofourselves.
I think we could fall into bedwhen we were in our 20s and like
whatever we got sleep, but wedidn't, but we were fine the
(33:26):
next day anyway, and it's just alittle.
We need a little bit more focuson taking care of ourselves now
.
Morgan Adams (33:32):
Agreed.
Yeah, great, great way to sayit.
Absolutely, we're just, we'renot quite as resilient with our
sleep system at this age.
We kind of need to baby it, butwe don't want to get, but on
the other hand we don't want toget too overprotective.
There's this again.
There's this fine line, youknow, because over focusing on
it can sometimes make theproblems worse.
So it's just that very delicatedance between paying attention
(33:55):
to it and letting it kind ofhappen as it will.
Cheryl Fischer (33:58):
Right, yes.
Morgan Adams (33:59):
I agree.
Cheryl Fischer (34:00):
So I'm going to ask you kind of my last big
question, but first, so I don'tforget, where can people find
you if they want to learn moreabout what you do or they want
to connect with you?
Morgan Adams (34:10):
Sure the best place to go would be my website,
morgan Adams wellnesscom.
There you will find theopportunity to schedule a
discovery call to see if youwant to potentially work
together to help your sleep.
You know, offer the sleepcoaching one to one.
And then there's a really coolguide on my website that's
relatively new and it's calledawake again at 3am your guide to
(34:32):
why you're waking up and whatto do about it.
You can download that guide forfree and it's got all sorts of
tips on the origins of the 3amwake ups, what to do about it,
what not to do.
So it's a great resource forpeople who are like having those
consistent middle of the nightwake ups.
Cheryl Fischer (34:48):
Isn't it funny how it's always 3am.
Morgan Adams (34:54):
Quite often it is.
Cheryl Fischer (34:56):
What is it about 3am?
Is there a particular thingabout that timing?
Morgan Adams (35:01):
That's so funny.
My sister actually texted methis earlier just an hour ago.
Well, yeah, there are manydifferent things and I go
through a lot of it in the guide, but there's something about
cortisol spiking potentially alittle bit too early.
There's overheating, there'spotentially sleep breathing
(35:22):
issues.
Cheryl Fischer (35:24):
Yeah, just a few to ponder yeah, very
interesting.
Okay, well, I'll get that guideand if you're listening, you
need to get that for sure.
I think that that is certainlya common thing that I hear women
talk about, absolutely.
So let's say that somebody hasbeen listening to our discussion
and is trying to remember allthe things and found it very
(35:45):
interesting.
I always say you know what?
We're not going to be able toremember everything.
Of course you can go back andlisten again, but what is the
one thing that, oh, my goodness,I have to remember?
This OMG thing that you wantsomebody listening to remember
from today.
Morgan Adams (36:00):
OK, I think it would be this, and I say this
because it's been impactful forall my clients, and I say this
on all the podcasts I'm on and Ihave.
People will literally DM me andbe like that tip worked.
So are you ready?
Cheryl Fischer (36:14):
I'm ready.
Morgan Adams (36:15):
It's so.
I love it.
It's getting the natural lightin the morning because so many
people aren't doing it.
So many people are reallystaying inside, not getting out
for a while.
Maybe they work from home andthey don't even bother to go
outside.
So just really like, if you'renot used to this, like going
outside in the morning, startwith 10 minutes.
If you don't want to move, ifyou don't want to actually take
(36:36):
a walk, just sit on your porchand just sip your coffee.
If you want to do that too, youdon't have to, like, go on a 30
minute walk.
Just little, little incrementslike this can really make a
difference.
So that's what I would say Ifyou are wanting to try one thing
, and it's free, like no moneyis to be made on this.
Cheryl Fischer (36:58):
Well, you know what our brains argue with us,
don't they?
Because, as you said, that Iwas thinking okay, so I guess I
would have to put clothes on andthen I would go and get my tea,
because if I go outside in mypajamas that's a bit weird.
But you know what?
All that can be worked out.
It can be worked out, yeah.
Morgan Adams (37:15):
And I mean, if you have I mean not everyone has
the same living situations, ofcourse but like sometimes I'll
go out in my robe and sit on alawn chair in my backyard no one
can see me Right and I'm likejust as happy as a clam just
sitting there sipping my coffee.
I look crazy because I've got,like you know, disheveled hair
and a robe on and I look nuts.
(37:35):
But, like you know, I'm getting, I'm getting those that light
exposure and that just reallyhelps just my mood and my energy
and helps set me up for abetter night of sleep.
So I just can't speak moreabout about that.
It's just such a big thing.
Cheryl Fischer (37:48):
Well, I'm definitely gonna try it.
I definitely open the windowsand I look out in the morning,
but I will try going outside.
I love that.
Yeah let me know.
Yeah, absolutely Well, Morgan,thank you so much for joining me
today.
I know people are going to geta lot out of this episode.
Morgan Adams (38:04):
You're welcome.
Thanks for inviting me.
Cheryl Fischer (38:06):
I love Morgan's OMG moment tip Go outside in the
morning, even for 10 minutesand, interestingly, after we hit
the stop button on therecording, I told Morgan that I
do try to make sure I'm lookingout the window in the morning,
but I haven't been going outside.
And she said here's the issue.
(38:27):
A lot of our modern windowshave glass that is treated with
some sort of filter filteringthe rays so that they don't fade
the furniture or don't heat thehouse as much or all of those
things that are really goodthings, but our eyes are not
necessarily getting the light inthe same way that they would as
if we went outside.
Maybe a screen porch would beokay as well, if that's what you
(38:50):
have.
So very interesting tip and Iwould love to hear from you on
social media, cheryl P Fisher,on all the socials.
I would love to hear from youif you try this going outside
first thing in the morning andif you see a difference, and I
know Morgan would love to hearfrom you as well.
So I hope that this makes adifference in your life Because,
(39:12):
as one of my guests on thepodcast from a few months ago,
lynn Bowman, who is 79, saidlove your sleep.
Stop whining about your sleep.
Love your sleep.
Stop whining about your sleep.
Maybe we'll all try to live upto that.
Make sure that you havesubscribed to Midlife Pivot on
Patreon, because Morgan and Italked about three different
(39:33):
tips that you can implementright away that may help your
sleep, that are totally free, soyou will want to catch that
over on the Patreon community.
Go to patreoncom.
Slash mind your midlife andover the next few weeks we've
got some tapping practices inPatreon that I'm sharing with
you, that you can use anytime toget through limiting beliefs,
(39:57):
to deal with your fear of takingaction.
Some amazing treats for you.
So I'll see you there and inthe meantime, slow down, notice
what's going on around you,what's going on in your head,
and let's create somethingamazing.
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