July 9, 2025 • 50 mins
I would love to hear from you!
Former Lieutenant Colonel Mike McClain shares his journey from military service to healthcare reform advocate, exploring how authentic identity, healthcare transparency, and global giving can transform lives and systems. Mike reveals how finding his true purpose led him to leave a promising military career to pursue his calling of redeeming healthcare in America.
• Identity flows from understanding your core self, beyond external validation and accolades
• Creating space for solitude and reflection is essential for discovering authentic purpose
• Work-life "balance" naturally follows when you operate from genuine identity
• American healthcare ranks lowest in quality and highest in cost among top GDP countries
• Pharmaceutical pricing lacks transparency, with many medications costing 10x more than necessary
• Pharmacy Benefit Managers receive rebates for certain drugs, creating misaligned incentive structures
• Consistency in health habits matters more than extreme programs or diets
• The "1040 window" contains over 80% of the world's material poverty
• Those with the highest material wealth often experience the deepest spiritual poverty
• Giving creates a beautiful exchange where both giver and receiver benefit
Connect with Mike McClain on LinkedIn or follow him on social media @TallMikeMcClain. Check out his podcast "It Is Good" to learn more about his work in healthcare reform and global giving.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Hi everyone, I'm Nate Shearer and this is Mindforce,
the podcast where we explorelove, life and learning, because
your mind shapes everything.
Today we have a lot of topicsintentionality and vision, the
(00:45):
broken system of healthcare inAmerica and the need for new
incentive structures and givingof time, talent, treasures to
the nations around the world inthe deepest areas of poverty.
So let's start with thebackground.
Let's start with a quickintroduction.
Mike, tell us a little bitabout yourself.
Who are you, what do you do andwhat brings you here today?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah well, first off, nate, thanks for having me on
the show.
This is a real treat.
Normally I'm on the other sideof the camera here, so this is
fun.
Yeah.
So Mike McClain, formerLieutenant Colonel, medical
Service Corps officer in the AirForce, did 14 and a half years
after I graduated from the AirForce Academy, where I played
basketball, I spent my last yearthere as team captain.
(01:19):
I traveled all over the world,deployed downrange in support of
the drawdown with ISIS, didsome forward deployed telehealth
options there.
I spent two years at DefenseHealth Headquarters the medical
annex of the Pentagon.
For those that are unfamiliar,worked with our top general
officer, susan Pietrzkowskiprobably the greatest natural
leader I've ever known in mylife.
Moved over to the financialside and helped run the Air
(01:43):
Force budget and then did theemergency COVID-19.
Finished out with my thirdmaster's degree and just felt
like I was being called to dosomething greater in the
healthcare space.
I think we're going to get towhat my passion and calling is,
but I'll give a little bit of ateaser here.
That is to redeem healthcare inAmerica and certainly some cool
stuff happening with that inthe last even month or two.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
That's awesome.
Yeah, you didn't want one ortwo masters, that wasn't good.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, I got to outdo my wife, so her and I have an
ongoing competition.
So, yeah, I'd be remiss if Ididn't mention wife of 11 years,
chelsea.
She's a mental health counselor, former Air Force officer as
well, and we have three kids,seven, four and two.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Nice.
Yeah, I'm right there, dang, Igot seven, 10, and 11.
Nice, and to set the scene, Ifind it interesting, I've now
had people South Africa,australia, germany I think the
list is longer than that that Ican think of.
But to set the scene, where areyou calling from today?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah.
So that's a great questionbecause, as of this morning a
little teaser for those thatknow my podcast we are in a new
location.
So my wife and I just bought anew house here in Colorado
Springs, Colorado, so I have abrand new podcast studio.
Not super satisfied withRiverside's green screen
elimination technology here, butwe'll make do.
So I am in the basement of ournew house in a brand new podcast
studio, which I'll do a littleshort video on that so people
can see kind of what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm loving the brick.
It's really good.
I love the green behind yourears.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's really bringing out your eyes.
Yeah, we're going to have tochange that.
Midway through the podcast,people be like did he move?
No, no, I did not.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's wonderful, riverside.
Work on your elimination, youneed some help.
Speaking of financial, I'mcurious.
You know Dan Lee?
Yeah, absolutely yes.
It's so funny.
It's such a small world.
I was sitting in a staffmeeting yesterday and his name
came up on the slide and justrandom story.
That is completely off topicfrom the script.
But I knew nothing about what amedical service corps officer
(03:44):
was at all.
I'm relatively healthy.
I don't go to the clinic.
I have no idea what this careerfield even is.
I dive off boats in Guam doing alot of scuba diving and would
do like buddy checks on this guyand his two sons and you know,
make sure everyone's squaredaway and dive off the boat with
this guy.
He was really nice and cool andI knew nothing about him.
And then later on I stumbledacross MSC, I apply, I get
(04:10):
picked up and all these things,and later realized Dan Lee
should have been my 06 interviewwith, but he had left just a
few months before my interviewand that's who he was and so
didn't know he was an MSC,didn't even know what that job
was.
But it's a small world andyou'll end up bumping into
people again.
But I guess he's coming outhere.
Like April May.
I hope I get a chance to seehim again.
What year was that Nate?
2015 to 17 is when I was there.
(04:31):
I left in 17 when I got pickedup.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, big, big fan of retired Colonel Lee.
He was our pseudo chief ofstaff at SG-18.
We didn't have a secretary, sohe mentored me, helped me as I
was the exec for General Pye,and he is a remarkable human
being, very intelligent as well.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, it seems like the resources go farther.
I need to switch it up.
So far, my boss is VitorMcFarland, and then you know,
dan, not my supervisor, butthese people that are resources
that go the distance.
I guess readiness isn't whereit's at.
That's an all-star cast rightthere, some good ones.
Yeah, I've been lucky and veryblessed, but we'll start with
(05:14):
the warm-up.
Mike, what's a defining momentin your life that shaped your
passion for these three pillarsthat we talked about.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean, my year with General Pye did a lot of
shaping in many, many, many ways.
I had done shadowing at theexecutive level before with the
Army Baylor program.
My year Providence Health andServices with Preston Simmons,
the CEO of the Northwest Regionof Providence Health and
Services.
This was different.
It was really a true mentorship.
(05:37):
General Pye brought me underher wing, really showed me the
ins and outs of what it means tono kidding run the size and
scope of what she was dealingwith.
And you know, let's just take apause here real quick we
weren't talking the normal SG-18stuff.
We were talking about medicalreform 4684, which is kind of a
pseudo curse word here, whichI'm not allowed to curse and I
(06:00):
wouldn't anyways, butnonetheless 4684.
And a bunch of things that weregoing on on the heels of NDAA
2017.
And so to really watch her kindof navigate that stuff in very
intimate ways was really, reallyspecial.
And so I learned a lot ofthings from that.
I learned, you know, I wantedto be a high level health care
(06:21):
executive, but not necessarilyin the MHS.
That was a huge turning point.
I learned work-life balance.
I learned how to have fun whileworking extremely hard and she
is a master at creating cultureand her culture is fun.
But we also did a lot of workand worked long hours and so her
(06:42):
ability to kind of craft that,to build a team.
It shaped me, it propelled me,it basically pointed me in a new
direction in my career and whatI wanted to do in life.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So that term work-life balance has always
kind of drove me nuts.
If you could change those words, what would you change them to?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And likewise, by the way, what would I change it to?
Oh boy, no-transcript.
(07:36):
When you have identity,everything flows from that, and
that's a really broad topic thatI'd love to dive into sometime.
But when you have thatwork-life balance kind of flows
naturally.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, it's always interesting to me, like the
association of time with effort,like there's no connection with
that.
I've had co-workers that youknow came in early and left late
and part of me thinks theydidn't have a great family life,
but I don't know that for sure.
But they'd walk around most ofthe day with a coffee cup and
the bosses and whatnot be like,oh, they're doing so great,
(08:07):
they've been here for 10 hours.
And then I'd see anothercoworker I had where they would
get there exactly at 7.30 andleave.
They'd be almost by the door by4.30 to watch some music,
because their driving factor wastheir daughter.
So she had a driving factor, awhy her purpose?
And hey, I'm going to get home,soak up as much time as I can
(08:31):
with my child and recharge andcome back the next day.
But her tasks like if you sawher checklist of things that got
done, crushing it because I'mgoing to get out and be done by
4.30.
And so the correlation, likethe eight hours versus the 10
hours, it's not even in any waycomparable, like she was
destroying it and he was justhanging out with the coffee cup.
But people would see the 10hours and be so happy about it.
Isn't that weird, nate, this isa hot topic, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
It'll get me fired up because we and I say we.
I'm no longer a medical servicecorps officer, I'm long gone at
this point but there was thisweird badge of honor with
working long hours and when Iwas working for General Pye, she
tried to dispel that quite abit.
Everywhere we went she wouldask what are normal working
hours and she would leave at 521as a 21st Corps Chief every
(09:17):
single day and would she log inlate at night on a Monday night?
Yeah sure, did the staff knowthat?
No, they did not, because shedidn't want to set a precedent
of long hours.
And I think we haveunfortunately laid in an
incentive structure formally andinformally, by the way that
does not align with what we'retrying to achieve.
So we espouse work-life balance,which again another topic for
(09:40):
another day.
But then we applaud people whoit's like man there's.
There's Dave over there withhis coffee cup.
Did he leave last night?
There's a pillow in his office.
I think he slept on his couch.
Wow, what a hard worker.
It's like no, his family lifeis crumbling.
He has nothing outside of here,so all he has is relationships
at work and his identity iswrapped up in completing the
(10:03):
task and doing it well.
If you give him negativefeedback, there's going to be
some problems here, becausethat's all he has left and you
know it's.
There's so much of a need to gothrough the soft stuff in the
medical service corps like thisand really do kind of an
analysis.
And this goes hand in glovewith the stuff and all other
(10:23):
genre of conversation that wecould get into another time, but
I'll leave that there.
Like I said, that's a hot topicfor me, but an interesting one
nonetheless Shoot.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, we better not get into DEI.
We might be here way too long.
So your first main pillar isDEI.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I didn't say that's another 4684 and DEI are like
the F-bomb.
No, I said EI, emotionalintelligence.
Let's be real clear.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So, for anyone not aware, the number Mike is
referencing was a drawdown inthe medical service and it
happened right before COVID.
And so you know, obviously avery shock to the system where
public health and other serviceswere needed massively
throughout the pandemic andthings like that.
So it made people kind of pauseand wonder like, was that the
right direction or decision todraw down medical forces when we
do play a vital role?
But we needed that kind ofexample to show that and
(11:16):
unfortunately it came to came tothe pandemic.
But we'll get into the threemain pillars.
That's classic.
Your first one, helping othersdiscover identity and purpose.
And so, mike, why do you thinkso many people struggle to find
their true identity and purpose?
You know?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
an hour episode with the three pillars that we're
going to go through is justshortchanging these
conversations.
But I'm going to give theabsolute highest level of my
answer to that.
I think it's twofold.
I think, first of all, we inAmerica and then I would just
say generally in kind of aglobal state, are very
(11:53):
distracted and reactive, and Ithink both of those things put
us in a state where we're notactually doing the hard work
internally to look at ourselvesand say I need to prune that off
.
Here's something that I'mreally wrestling with.
Let me allow myself some timeto kind of wrestle with that and
work it out in my mind and myheart.
(12:14):
And this goes to a gratitudepractice which I think anybody
out there that's like man I'm apessimist, I'm really depressed,
I'm struggling with stuff.
Let me just offer up agratitude practice Four to five
things every single morning.
Write down that you're thankfulfor genuinely and then just
allow your mind and your heartto think about those things, to
(12:34):
meditate on those things.
Nate, I'm a Christian, so forme this meditation is synonymous
with my identity in Christ, butit doesn't have to be for those
that are not a Christian.
It's just one of those thingsthat you're grateful for.
And that moves into theidentity question for sure,
because once you understand whatthose things are at the most
(12:56):
fundamental level, then youoperate out of that identity.
And that's what we're talkingabout with work-life balance.
What is balance?
What are you balancing towardsif you have no idea at the core
who you are, what you weredesigned for?
The analogy I like to offer topeople and I'll pause after this
when you were a sixth grader,you had some bullies in the
cafeteria.
You had a group of friends.
I'm not going to say on airwhat my group of friends were.
(13:19):
Maybe, if you bring me back fora part two, I'll share that.
But you know, before the worldgot a hold of you, before
society said you know Mike's sixfoot eight, he's got to be good
at basketball, let's see whathe can do.
Before all of that, who wereyou Like?
What were your gifts?
What were you passionate about?
What were those things thatdrew you in?
Naturally, and at some point welose the wonder of life and life
(13:44):
just starts to demand of us toshape us, to push us.
And I woke up one day, two anda half years ago, and you know
successful career, lieutenantColonel in the Air Force,
medical Service Corps officer,all intensive purposes.
I was doing great.
But I was not happy and Irealized I had kind of been put
in this position in my life thatI didn't really want to be.
(14:06):
I had excelled in certain areas, I got the accolades, they said
great job.
And I was like, oh, certainlyI'm doing well.
But I never took the moment topause and say, but am I happy
with where I am?
Am I where I'm called to be?
And that's a much more profoundquestion.
And I think when people areseeking how to find contentment
in life, man, is that not themost important question you
(14:30):
could ask yourself and then giveyourself the time and space to
really consider it?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So I'm curious.
Well, I got two questions, butthe first one is with that
gratitude and thankfulness.
I'm curious.
Do you find yourself everrepeating the same ones or
things like that?
Does that have any loss?
Where you're saying good healthand family and friends, does
that kind of lose its lusterafter a while?
Or what does kind of those?
Does it come and go or ups anddowns, or what does that
(14:56):
gratitude you know those fiveevery day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, definitely overlaps and I have kind of a
go-to.
I'll share this one live on air.
This is straight to theaudience.
I'm going to break the curtainthere.
No, my daughter's smile issomething that, for whatever
reason, hits me in such a deeplevel, and every time I think
about it I'm just overwhelminglygrateful for the opportunity to
(15:22):
be a father, to love at a depthand in a way that I never
thought was possible, and sothat's kind of my cheat code, my
shortcut, if I ever feel like,oh man, life's rough right now,
there's a lot going on and Ineed just a quick fix of
gratitude.
I'll think about that.
I'll think about my daughterkind of putting her hand on my
(15:42):
cheek and giving me a hug, akiss on the forehead or cheek,
and yeah, that's my cheat code.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's a good one.
The other question I had wasdefining success.
I find it just so interesting.
So I had three different jobsin the Air Force.
I was air traffic first and Imoved over to contracting and I
didn't have anythingparticularly against the jobs.
They were fine, but I neverfelt the click.
You know where you're reallyexcited, you're ready to get in
there, you're, you know, excitedto take care of the people and
(16:09):
things like that.
And it wasn't until I found themedical service corps that like
the stars aligned and you feelthat click.
And that's eight years in and,like I said, I had no idea what
it was.
So for someone that is outthere and they, like you said,
like I'm okay and I'm, you know,winning some stuff, I feel good
, like how do you help them?
Like, define, like good andokay and actually finding that
(16:29):
purpose?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
How do you know you've arrived or do you know
Well, saying you've arrived isreally an interesting phrase,
but I think, allowing the spacein solitude and silence, space
in solitude and silence, andthat's something that we miss in
society in profound ways,especially in America,
(16:53):
especially as Air Force officers.
We're inundated withinformation and demands and
stresses and responsibility, andso for me, an irreplaceable
practice is 20, 30 minutes whereI'm not reading, I'm not
looking at anything, I'm justsilent.
And again, as a Christian, forme that's prayer, that's time
with the Lord, which, by the way, for me prayer is not just me
talking, it's also listening.
There's a great Mother Teresaquote that I won't go into here,
(17:15):
but well, I will, it's a greatquote.
It's a great quote.
They asked her about her prayerlife and she said, well, I pray
, I pray to God.
And they said, well, what doesGod do when you pray?
She goes, he listens, and ifyou don't understand that, you
don't understand prayer, andthat perplexed me for so long.
(17:36):
But anyways, I'll leave thatthere for your listeners to chew
on a little bit.
No, I think having that time tomeditate, to be free of the
stresses of life, is super,super important.
And what I tell people all thetime is accolades are great,
accolades are great.
They make us feel good.
There's something in our uniquedesign that resonates with that
.
But what I'm talking about cutsway beyond external validation.
It's an overflow of your heart,and there's only one way to get
(17:59):
there, and that's to spend timewith yourself.
And if you're not spending timewith yourself, then the answer
is quite easy you don't know whoyou are, and so you're just
putting on a mask and a facade.
There's a great book and I'llhave to share the title with you
because I can't remember offthe top of my head but it talks
about egos, which are basicallymasks that people put on, and
over time we add more and moremasks because of the external
(18:21):
validation that we receive, andit just feels good to be good at
stuff, and I get that.
I fell into the exact same trap.
But at some point, when yourealize who you are, what you
were designed for, what fillsyou up, you're going to start to
do things that, by societalviews, make zero sense.
I mean I got a lot of flack,nate, when I said, hey, I'm
(18:44):
getting out.
They're like you just put on.
Lieutenant Colonel, you'recrazy.
Five years until retirement.
What are you doing?
That's stupid.
I'm like I can understand whyfrom your perspective that's
stupid, but for me it's acalling, it's something that I
feel called to do, and so I'llleave that there.
But did that kind of get atwhat you were asking?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And the next one is kind of tocontinue to expand on what you
were talking about.
I love actionable tips andtricks, so what tools or
resources do you recommend forthose seeking deeper
self-recovery or discovery?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Wow, Discovery and recovery.
Actually both are appropriate.
You have to discover andrecover from an external
validation mindset, and there'sa people-pleasing element to
that I even think about.
I'm 6'8", so I was pushed intobasketball.
But even the accolades I wasconference first team,
(19:40):
all-conference in high school,all-state, mcdonald's,
all-american nominee, and so Iwas like surely this is the
direction I'm supposed to head.
And you never really pause andit's so easy to fall into that.
And so I guess what I would sayto listeners as just a starting
point, is what are those things,those mechanisms that pulled
you into almost a train ofthought, a particular career
(20:03):
path, whatever, that is, thatyou didn't make a conscious
decision or really spend thetime to think is this who I am,
what I want to do?
And it's an easy answer forthose that don't have any space
to do that or take the time tomeditate or be in silence.
Guarantee you, guarantee youthere's something propelling you
(20:23):
externally.
And I'm not saying all externalvalidation or input is bad.
Certainly, as a father, I lovemy children with all of my heart
, I love my wife with all myheart, and so it's important to
me that that connection is tight, and so certainly I'm always
gauging the connection to makesure that I'm doing a good job
as a father and as a husband.
(20:45):
But the question really is,what's driving you, what is at
the core of who you are?
And so, again, it just reallygoes back to people creating the
space to do the hard work.
And I do say I'll leave thishere, nate, but I do say the
hard work because I think peoplealmost mystify this time and
say I'm going to give my 20minutes and then they get
(21:06):
distracted with their phone orstart thinking about all the
stuff they have to do.
The hard work is there's anintentionality behind this and
that's really being present inthat moment with yourself and
for those Christians beingpresent with the Lord.
And that takes anintentionality, that takes an
active role.
That's not just like all right,I created the space, sweet, I
(21:28):
was on my phone the whole timesending emails.
It's like you didn't do it, youdidn't do the hard.
I was like this is the thing Ihave to do.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But like, at the deeper level, I didn't really
understand and it was kind of anepiphany in the middle of my
interview, which is probably notthe right time.
You should probably have thatepiphany before the interview,
(21:56):
but it was interesting because Iremember this like complete
match.
And so they asked, like youknow, why do you want to do it
or something?
And I had been to ALS and so Italked about the four lenses and
I'm like I'm off the chartsblue and orange, Like I have
none of the other two at thetime my brother and I'm like.
So I'm like, okay, so let mewalk you through.
Like how I'm the match Likeorange, I get bored, I get
(22:20):
stagnant, I have to continue tolearn something or I just get
bored out of my mind.
So I'm like you change careersin essence, you know within one
career field every couple ofyears, like I have wanted that
for the longest time.
And then I'm like, oh, I'm blueand I'm like you want to talk
about, you know, parties.
Like I annoy my wife becauseI'm walking around and checking
on everyone hey, is thetemperature good?
(22:40):
Can I grab you a drink?
Like I'm annoying her on howmuch I'm checking on the party.
And like to your point, likethat's me at my core, like
that's me on the good day,that's me on Monday, that's me
on Friday.
Like it doesn't matter, that'sme as, as who I am.
And so I think when you findthat thing, like you don't have
to think, you don't have to putany effort, extra effort or
anything like that it reallyjust like clicks, like that's
(23:02):
that's who I'm bringing.
Every day I'm going to helppeople.
I'm also going to pass out ofblood and needles, so I'm glad
I'm not on the front side of thehouse, but I will help and take
care of anyone anytime, and soI think that's really you know,
kind of what you were saying.
You just find that match whereit's just the thing that it's
supposed to be.
And I think you know, like thesilence, which I'm super glad
you brought that up.
I know a few different guestshave brought that up, but I'm
(23:23):
glad you know we're bringingthat up more and more because it
just seems like we're supposedto go faster and do more and now
we have Google, you can get anyanswer in a matter of seconds.
We want fast food, everything'sfast, but I think there's
definitely something in that, inthat slowing down and the quiet
.
That's super important.
Anything else on that?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
No, I think that's extremely well said, and when
you're in that role or state toyour point, it's just easier.
It doesn't feel like work and Ithink part of the confusion
again it goes back to externalvalidation, because officers are
oftentimes alpha personalities.
They want to perform, they wantto do well, they're going to
grid it out.
This is not to say that youcan't flex.
(24:02):
I flexed, I would say, thesecond half of my time at DHHQ
on the financial side.
I'm a blue orange as well, somy year with General Pi was
great because she's also a blueorange, I would say, in terms of
the work demand.
I had to flex the gold a littlebit, for sure, and a little bit
of green to make sure the stuffgetting to her made sense and
(24:25):
was tight, but for sure, and alittle bit of green to make sure
the stuff getting to her madesense and was tight.
But it's not to say that wecan't flex.
That's going to take extraenergy to do that and really
what we're talking about is, bynature, who are you?
And so there's people thataren't willing to take the risk
and say you know what, 15 yearsI'm going to hop out.
That's okay.
I would never ask somebody todo that, but I think it's a
(24:46):
worthwhile exercise to considerwhat those things are, that you
naturally are, and just simplyunderstand that when you're
outside of that, there's a drawthat's occurring.
There's an energy draw that'soccurring that'll have to be
restored over time.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, it's interesting.
It reminds me of two things.
One I remember taking it ALSand they were like well, you can
shift based on you know whatkind of roles you're in and
things like that.
And I remember looking at myinstructor, I'm like you're,
you're crazy, I'm blue orange,I'm always going to be blue
orange.
And then I had to take it at SOSand all of a sudden they've all
kind of evened out, because nowI have to have organization and
(25:21):
that gold and the check boxesand moving through things and I
have to be somewhat logical withthe green and things like that.
So it is kind of funny because Ithought that was baloney as a
young senior airman andobviously you know, you think
you know everything at thesenior airman level, but that's
not the case.
And the other thing I find isso interesting is that SOS, not
SOS, ots.
(25:41):
I remember they said you'llhave no bad days and so when I
crossed over I was like I'mgoing to be tough and I'm going
to be stern and I'm going to be,and that like lasts for a
couple of months and you'retired and drained, like you're
saying.
And then I'm like OK, now I'mjoking and you know, being the
person I am and I always was,and so it's interesting that you
said the egos and the mass, soyou can try to kind of put it on
(26:02):
there for a little while.
I'm like, I'm uptight, I'm theofficer, I'm like, oh no, I just
got to be who I am and that'sthe rub.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
A quick plug for General Pye, who I don't ever
shy away from sharing openly howbig of a fan I am of her, but
have you ever met a generalofficer that was more
authentically themselves?
I mean there's.
I don't know if you pop upphotos here, but there's
thousands of photos with her ina costume In SLW in 2019, she
(26:32):
wore I think it was PrincessLeia.
Maybe I'm conflating too, butshe is just who she is, and I
think when you get to that level, kind of what you're saying,
nate, there's a power and astrength.
People can feel it's one thingto say something and it's like,
okay, I've got subordinates,they're going to go execute this
stuff.
Sure, but how does yourleadership make people feel?
(26:55):
And when you're tapped into whoyou are and that's actually
flowing out of you, there's astrength.
There's a tangible strengthbehind that leadership, and Zach
Gooch, a really, really goodfriend of mine, shared the story
on my podcast.
It was General Pi's first day atDHHQ and she started a
conversation around a desk andall of a sudden, there was 5
(27:17):
other people, 10 other people,20.
And maybe 45 minutes into it,there was a crowd of like 45, 50
people around her.
She didn't call a meeting, shedidn't ask anybody to come over,
it was just her laugh wasinfectious.
She was cracking jokes, she wasconnecting with people, she was
(27:38):
learning who people were.
She would make these fun littlenicknames for people all the
time.
Mcrib is one that stands out.
She literally called McRibMcRib for like a year straight
because he loved McRibs and thatwas then his name, and so that
goes a little bit in the cultureconversation.
But yeah, no, I totally agreewith what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Be yourself.
It took me you know 30 some oddyears, but, geez, be yourself.
The next pillar you have, mike,is the broken healthcare system
.
So can you touch on again,wavetops?
Because, geez's, we could talkall day, but what?
What are some of the biggestflaws in the current healthcare
system?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, Wavetops Cause now we're.
You know, identity is one thingand this is like all right, now
we're in professional territory, so I can go 10 miles deep, all
right, wavetops.
So the U?
S?
Google online cost versusquality countries and you will
find no shortage of graphs, data, research on cost versus
(28:28):
quality and among the 10 highestGDP countries in the world.
So, theoretically, the mostestablished, the most successful
, the US is the lowest inquality and highest in cost.
But here's the thing You'd belike oh wow, that's kind of
crazy.
It's not even close.
Nate, there's a grouping andthat's the other nine.
(28:49):
So it's like the nine are hereand then the Medical Service
Corps is.
I just saw what was happening onthe outside and I've got all
(29:11):
the license and certificationsand master's degrees and all
that stuff, and so I kind ofhave a unique insight into what
it specifically means for thesystem to be broken.
That term is kind of thrown outthere.
Right, people are like bigpharma.
It's like, yes, true, but whatdoes that specifically mean?
Like, what is internationalsourcing?
What are referrals for the PBM?
(29:32):
Like, how did these processeswork?
And so my desire, so who I amas an individual?
Going back to the first, I canhelp somebody and they are
appreciative and feel energizedby me just serving them.
So, combining that with my kindof clear understanding of what
(29:57):
needs to occur and what's brokenin the US healthcare system,
those converge into the rolethat I'm in now with IOA.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
That's a perfect segue.
What would an ideal healthcaresystem look like if you could
build it from the ground?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
up.
There's no way that I'm readingthe questions and placing
transitions for you, nate, I'malso like I understand as well
that I'm going a little bitdeeper.
This is the problem when yougive a podcast host a microphone
to talk because we're used toasking questions it's like oh, I
can pontificate a little bithere.
What would be an idealhealthcare system?
Okay, right off the rip, andlet me couch this a little bit
(30:34):
as it relates to the UShealthcare system, I think it's
a separate conversation to sayif we restored healthcare in the
world, what would that looklike?
Let me couch it in the UShealthcare system as it relates
to it being broken.
How do we get it to a statethat's functional?
The number one answer, I wouldsay, is transparency, without a
question, transparency.
(30:54):
And then, specifically in thepharmaceutical industry, if we
could get to price transparency,I think people sense and feel
that what is happening is notgood High level wave tops.
Right.
If there was transparency inwhy, I think there would be an
outcry from employers, fromemployees, from US citizens, and
(31:15):
I think if they saw a peekbehind the curtain, there'd be a
lot of things occurring up atCongress for sure, very quickly.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So do you think that would be like the price of
aspirin is always the price ofaspirin and things like that.
Or can you expand on what youmean by transparency?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, and again, just staying with the pharmacy side,
I think we're lagging behind.
I got to be careful here, nate.
So we are lagging behind othercountries in terms of regulatory
reform and legislature, as itrelates to price transparency,
capping necessary medicationsand I am very familiar with all
(31:53):
the conversations because we areby far one of the most
innovative countries in terms ofpharmaceutical development, r&d
.
Specialized healthcare Sure,yes, I will concede those facts
for sure.
But when we talk about layingin the pharmaceuticals
programmatically across theUnited States I'm going to use a
term here this might get meinto some trouble they are price
(32:15):
gouging US citizens, simpleenough.
Look at the definition of pricegouging and I'll back that up
by saying there is some lawyersright now going after Fortune 10
, fortune 50 companies for thatexact thing.
Officers in those publiclytraded companies have a
fiduciary responsibility fortheir stakeholders and how they
lead and govern their employees.
(32:37):
Well, when you're chargingsomebody $1,000 for a $10
medication, there's a problemwith that.
And you're going to say, oh,that's what the health plan says
.
Okay, you're the CEO, you areresponsible to your stakeholders
, and charging an additional$990.
And now we're talking lay thatout.
Let's say, you've got 100,000employees.
We're not talking about $990.
(32:58):
We're talking about $20 millionfor a single drug, obviously
speaking of the Fortune 10companies, and so that's what
the lawyers are going after.
But when I say transparency,that's what I mean.
I don't think people realizejust how big the numbers get,
and that's really all I want todo.
It's why I do a free analysisfor companies.
I just want them to see what'shappening and, from somebody
(33:22):
with a master's degree orseveral master's degree
certifications, to go in to lookat the nuances, to look at the
complicated nature of healthcareand say, hey, you are getting
quote gouged for $10 millionover here, oh, and here's
another 19 million, so on and soforth.
That's my goal, that's mymission.
It's not about money, but thisis the sweet spot, right?
You talk about being yourselfand, after you became an officer
(33:45):
, having fun and kind of cuttingit up with your staff.
This is me.
I want to go into thecomplicated stuff and serve
people, and so I'm living out mypassion, I'm living out who I
am, and it's a really excitingseason to be in, because
everything is coming to a point.
Right now in the healthcaresystem, there's a demand for
change, there's a demand forchange, there's a demand for
(34:07):
innovation.
There's things happening withprice transparency, rfk Jr, with
Trump pushing certain reformsin the healthcare industry, it
is perfect time for the stuffthat we're doing with IOA.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
That's awesome.
So for all the people that areout there have no experience,
aren't healthcare things likethat?
Maybe this is out of order, butmaybe, to back up a little bit,
could you kind of walk usthrough incentive structure and
how that doesn't really play tolike good, you know, good health
outcomes Sure Again wavetop.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So we'll stay.
We'll stay on thepharmaceutical side, cause
that's, this is the lowesthanging fruit.
Like when you know, when you gointo a new organization and
obviously you want to do a goodjob, and so your commander's
like, all right, tell me whatyou think.
And you go in.
You're like this person istaking a medical record, they're
scanning it, they're faxing itto themselves, then they're
loading it back in for a digitalrecord.
(34:57):
You're like, oh my gosh,awesome, right off the rip I
could save two FTEs because Ijust need to scan it and go.
That kind of stuff, it's soobvious.
That is the pharmaceuticalindustry right now in America.
It's the lowest hanging fruit,but the amounts associated with
it are astronomically big.
So the reason for this, for thepharmaceutical side, again,
(35:19):
that's where we'll stay.
Okay, so two points.
So international outsourcingfor pharmaceuticals is how we
can save money pretty easily.
There's an inflated cost withmanufacturing, with development,
all sorts of stuff.
That again, I'll stay highlevel.
That would keep that in theUnited States.
It's why everybody uses the US,inside the US, for their
(35:41):
pharmaceuticals.
Well, there's precedent now incertain states Colorado is one
of them, florida, there areseveral others that allow
legally to outsource throughCanada, where medications are a
10th the cost in the US, and sothere's absolutely regulated,
professional, very clear linesof effort to just simply
(36:06):
outsource through Canada forpharmaceuticals.
The second, and talkingspecifically about the incentive
structure, is PBMs.
Pharmacy benefit managers getrebates for certain drugs, and
so they have a tiered list and Iwon't go too deep into that,
but they have a tiered list ofwhat is an approved medication
and that is directly tied to howmuch money the PBM gets back.
(36:28):
I'm going to pause there.
Did you hear what I just said,nate?
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah, how wild is that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
It's so obvious when you peelback the curtain you're like
what?
That's illegal.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
No, it's not.
And all these things we alwaystalk about checks and balances
and government, or even like thegovernment purchase card,
Someone's got to check it andmake sure.
It's just kind of wild to think, like you said you say it out
loud like no one really checksout, Like they just get money
for choosing certain things thatmaybe not be the best for the
patient.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
But we're talking about trillions of dollars.
This isn't like a couplemillion dollars that we could
save in the Air Force.
We're talking about trillionsof dollars, and so that's why I
use the word transparency.
I want people to see what thosethings are.
I want them to see why thecosts of medications are so high
, and it's not the only way.
There are regulatedalternatives that are both legal
(37:19):
and professionally managed thatcan cut costs by 50% or more
for a lot of these employers.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
So that's a perfect segue again into the next
question.
So you're someone, you work atthe company.
You're not the boss, you'rejust part of a plan.
What can individuals do to takecharge of their own health?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah Well, let me back up here Take charge of
their health or take charge oftheir health plan Two separate
conversations.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Maybe both.
I mean, if you have a betterplan, you have better health,
right?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
All right, I will stay really high level here.
Nate, I promise you Okay, OkayHealth plan.
Just reach out to me I'm happyto do a free assessment with.
I'm not looking for money, I'mnot looking to get paid, I'm not
looking for your businessnecessarily.
If it goes well, great.
But genuinely, like I said, Iwant to help people see the
nuances of their health plansand save them money.
(38:10):
Individual health, I would sayconsistency is the enemy of
mediocrity, and if my wifelistens to this episode, she's
going to smile because she hearsme say that all the time.
Consistency is the killer Aboveany extreme diet program, any
workout program.
If you're consistent, you willwin.
And so one of those things thatyou can commit to consistently
sometimes it's just getting outand doing a one mile walk or jog
(38:33):
every single day Pick thosethings that you can be
consistent with Drinking water,getting sleep.
There's so many things that areuniversally accepted but not
many people actually implementthem.
Well, take those things I justlisted a few Drink water, get
better sleep, get moving, Do itwith consistency, Build a habit,
build a routine and then add toit.
(38:53):
So my personal transformation.
So two and a half years ago, Iwas 285 pounds and I went on a
personal journey, spiritually,mentally, physically, where I
found myself one day I was 220pounds and ripped like gained.
A ton of muscle was justshredded, and that was less to
do with me trying to getshredded and more to do with I
(39:15):
had an intentionality, I had aplan that I committed to, and
one of those things was workingout, and so I listened to
Audible.
I would listen to a book everysingle morning while I worked
out, and a good friend of mine,Ben Garland, recommended to me
Miracle Morning, and so I usedthat as the structure for about
a year and then kind of adaptedit to be my own over time.
But that's what I wouldrecommend consistency.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
So I'd like to try to get you to expand a little bit
more on the health plans.
I love the connection to youand getting that help and things
like that, but connection toyou and getting that help and
things like that.
But are there documents thatsomeone can download or they're
huge red flags or the thingssomeone could go and like log
into their account or you know?
I mean I guess it's based,probably maybe too broad for for
everybody because their plansare so different.
(39:57):
But are there things that, likeyou know universally, where you
could check on a few things andsee if it's completely out of
whack?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
So we're getting in the territory of claims data and
understanding internationaloutsourcing.
I would say this here's ananswer If you're able to discern
whether or not yourpharmaceuticals are coming from
the US or outside the US, that'sa great starting point.
If they're coming from the US,I can guarantee you, guarantee
you, I'd put money on it.
I bet anybody out there that'slistening that you are
(40:24):
overpaying significantly foryour pharmacy benefit.
I think once you get in andlet's just say this, I'm just
going to say this out loud thehealthcare industry is, I think,
intentionally messy and complex, because that creates a barrier
to entry for HR directors, cfos, people that don't have an MHA
(40:45):
or a fellow of the AmericanCollege of Healthcare Executives
or a licensed health benefitsbroker.
You need all of these things tojust simply understand how to
look at the nuances of the plan,and so I would say start there,
start with the internationaloutsourcing.
If you can discern that andcertainly there's other stuff I
(41:09):
don't want to go outside of thepharmacy because then it gets
incredibly complex.
So, just for reference, when Iwould go in and I would take on
a healthcare plan for anemployer, which is what I do as
a Senior Vice President ofStrategic Partnerships with IOA.
I kind of stand in the gap of aCigna, blue Cross, blue Shield.
There's about 30 to 40, maybemore, maybe less, is that I'm
(41:33):
going to look at.
So, stop loss, mental vision,all these different things that
have their own categories, andwithin those categories there's
deep, deep nuances to how toimplement those programs, and so
it's so complex that it keepsthe everyday people out, it
keeps the HR director out, itkeeps the CFO out.
So could they go in and savemoney?
Sure, but it's extremelycomplicated.
(41:56):
And it's exactly why theyrequire licenses and master's
degrees and certifications,because if you go in and you
muck something up, people'slives are at risk.
And oh, by the way, there'slike stacks of law, there's
stacks of state law, all sortsof stuff that would keep the
everyday person from looking attheir health plan, which I think
, is by design.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Dang.
That's definitely eye-opening.
It seems like it's there for areason.
Your last pillar is giving tothe nations in the deepest area
of poverty.
So what first inspired you toserve communities in extreme
poverty?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah.
So this is like a superpersonal question to me, because
I'm ashamed to say that.
I think distraction issomething that keeps us from
considering the rest of theworld we are.
There's nobody in Americathat's not wealthy.
There's an extreme statement byworldly standards.
(42:47):
You know, when we're talkingabout the 1040 window, which is
that area over in Asia and I'llleave people to Google that on
their own time but we're talkingabout 80 plus percent of the
world's poverty.
So you know we can go get cleanwater and have a drink.
That is not the case in the1040 window.
There's food available atpretty much every single corner
(43:09):
also not available.
There's these things that wetake for granted, and I think
that's another opportunity forus to be grateful in America,
but it's also a calling for usto Okay.
So there's a book called theTrellis and the Vine Great book,
but it also talks about poverty, and so, by American standards,
we often consider poverty as adirect association with material
(43:30):
poverty.
Great Sure, there's people thathave less money, have less
means, absolutely.
But there's also spiritualpoverty, and so the great irony
of life is you could go over tosome of these very remote cities
in the 1040 window, some ofthese very remote cities.
In the 1040 window, theseremote towns or tribes or
villages, spiritual wealth isthrough the roof.
(43:54):
And when I say spiritual, youcould take that a myriad of ways
.
I'm not necessarily just sayingspiritual in terms of my faith
in Christ, but spiritual just interms of gratitude, abundance,
you know, contentment.
What's contentment?
Great, these are good words.
So there's a transfer of quotewealth that I think we're being
called into as Americans,because there's so many
Americans that are just in deep,deep spiritual poverty, deep
(44:16):
spiritual poverty.
And the great irony of life isoften those with the highest
material wealth have thegreatest spiritual poverty, and
so I think the beauty of this iswe can transfer material wealth
to those that have spiritualwealth, and the beauty of it is
that in return we get spiritualwealth, even though we may be
(44:39):
losing some of our materialwealth, if that makes sense.
So I was introduced to this byone of my best friends, kj
Rendawa, who was a classmate ofmine.
He simultaneously got out at 14and a half years from the Air
Force, also on a great careertrajectory, was doing extremely
well, probably one of thegreatest leaders I've ever met
in my life.
So he moved out here toColorado Springs, actually three
minutes up the road from thisnew house, which is crazy.
(45:01):
But he joined aimsorg as theinternational mobilization
director and I love this man andI love his heart, and so I was
introduced by him to the great,great need and really as a
medical service corps officer.
I love the structure.
They basically have a CRM thatorganizes all the business
requirements and so they havethese local native businesses
(45:24):
that sustain villages, tribes,local areas and basically
infuses commerce throughmicroloans.
It's a really, reallyintriguing and well-organized
model.
You could go into any excuse meFortune 500 company and it'll
rival that shoulder to shoulder,which I've never seen in a
nonprofit ministry organization,and so I love their efficiency,
(45:46):
I love the way they do whatthey do and certainly the need
itself is tremendous.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's awesome.
That is some really good stuff.
I'm curious, I love stories, soI'm hoping can you share a
story where you've seen theimpact from giving time, talent
and treasure, rather than justmoney?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
You know, I think rather than a specific incident,
because I want to be carefulwith anonymity and respecting
names and people but certainlythe greatest joy of my life is
mentoring people, pouring intothem, and I'll say this if you
don't have a mechanism forgiving back, I'm not even going
to say like shame on you oranything like that.
(46:26):
What I'm going to say is you'remissing out, because we were
created to give.
I guarantee you, at the verycore of who you are as a human
being, there's something insideof you that wants to give your
time, treasure and talent, andso for me, it's life-giving to
spend the time, theintentionality, and there's
nothing that can replace thiseye contact.
(46:46):
I mean it's life-giving tospend the time, the
intentionality, and there'snothing that can replace this
eye contact.
I mean it's even betterface-to-face, right, because you
can feel and feed off eachother.
Nate, you and I have greatchemistry, but it's even better
in person.
You get something from thattransaction at one of the
deepest levels that you canunderstand.
And then, obviously, the peoplethat you're giving that to
there's at a minimumappreciation, but you have an
(47:08):
opportunity to share experiences, to give sacrificially to these
people that are in great need,and we've already broken out two
of those distinctions.
There's spiritual and material,but there's so many other
things and the transaction isthere.
It's not just one way, and Ithink a lot of people want to
think oh, I'm giving, it's oneway.
They get, I get nothing.
(47:29):
Nope, ask anybody that iswealthy that gives away millions
of dollars.
Ask them how they feel aboutgiving.
I guarantee you most of themwill say it's the most
significant thing they do,because we're hardwired to think
and feel that way.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's the way that we were designed.
Well, mike.
The final takeaway if someoneis feeling lost in purpose or
overwhelmed by today's problems.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
What's one piece of advice you'd give them?
Yeah, I'm going to stay ontheme here.
Just to be concise and simple,I'm going to say take the time,
take the time.
And you're going to say I don'thave the time and I'm going to
challenge you on that.
I think so many Americans areinundated with things and
they're feeding their body likecrap.
They're not reading books togrow and the sad reality of that
(48:14):
a lot of them are drinkingalcohol.
They're robbing themselves ofgood sleep and restoration,
they're not doing the thingswith intentionality and time to
get to a good space, and so theywake up in the morning 7, 7.30,
roll out of bed, head straightto work.
They're depressed, they'repessimistic.
You will get more energy, youwill have more time when you
start to do those things thatyou know are good, and that was
(48:37):
the origins of the it Is Goodpodcast.
Quick plug it Is Good podcast.
Sorry, nate, but that's thegenesis of laying in those
things that you trust and havefaith.
The outcome will be good.
And I think the lie that a lotof people believe is I don't
have the time.
Change some stuff and see howmuch time you have.
I get seven hours of sleep anight and it's great rest.
(48:59):
I feel really energized.
I have a ton of energy, mymental clarity is through the
roof, but I also don't eat junkfood regularly.
I don't drink, I take care ofmyself, I'm intentional, I
allocate time to things that areimportant, and I think I would
say that same thing to thelisteners Spend the time and be
intentional.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
There is time if you make it Well.
Thank you, mike, for coming out.
I wanted to ask you where canpeople connect with you and
learn a little bit more aboutyou?
I guess you just mentioned it.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yeah, my tag is at TallMikeMcClain.
I'm 6'8".
By the way, for those thatdon't know, At TallMikeMcClain
I've got a podcast.
It is a good podcast.
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
That's a great way to start.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
That's probably my primary primary social media on
LinkedIn.
Perfect.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thanks for tuning in.
Don't forget to keep theconversation going.
Find us on Instagram, Facebook,TikTok, YouTube or Buzzsprout
and share your thoughts, Please,if you can drop a review.
(50:58):
I love you all.
See ya, Thank you.
Hi everyone, I'm Nate Shearer and this is Mindforce,
the podcast where we explorelove, life and learning, because
your mind shapes everything.
Today we have a lot of topicsintentionality and vision, the
(00:45):
broken system of healthcare inAmerica and the need for new
incentive structures and givingof time, talent, treasures to
the nations around the world inthe deepest areas of poverty.
So let's start with thebackground.
Let's start with a quickintroduction.
Mike, tell us a little bitabout yourself.
Who are you, what do you do andwhat brings you here today?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah well, first off, nate, thanks for having me on
the show.
This is a real treat.
Normally I'm on the other sideof the camera here, so this is
fun.
Yeah.
So Mike McClain, formerLieutenant Colonel, medical
Service Corps officer in the AirForce, did 14 and a half years
after I graduated from the AirForce Academy, where I played
basketball, I spent my last yearthere as team captain.
(01:19):
I traveled all over the world,deployed downrange in support of
the drawdown with ISIS, didsome forward deployed telehealth
options there.
I spent two years at DefenseHealth Headquarters the medical
annex of the Pentagon.
For those that are unfamiliar,worked with our top general
officer, susan Pietrzkowskiprobably the greatest natural
leader I've ever known in mylife.
Moved over to the financialside and helped run the Air
(01:43):
Force budget and then did theemergency COVID-19.
Finished out with my thirdmaster's degree and just felt
like I was being called to dosomething greater in the
healthcare space.
I think we're going to get towhat my passion and calling is,
but I'll give a little bit of ateaser here.
That is to redeem healthcare inAmerica and certainly some cool
stuff happening with that inthe last even month or two.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
That's awesome.
Yeah, you didn't want one ortwo masters, that wasn't good.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, I got to outdo my wife, so her and I have an
ongoing competition.
So, yeah, I'd be remiss if Ididn't mention wife of 11 years,
chelsea.
She's a mental health counselor, former Air Force officer as
well, and we have three kids,seven, four and two.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Nice.
Yeah, I'm right there, dang, Igot seven, 10, and 11.
Nice, and to set the scene, Ifind it interesting, I've now
had people South Africa,australia, germany I think the
list is longer than that that Ican think of.
But to set the scene, where areyou calling from today?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah.
So that's a great questionbecause, as of this morning a
little teaser for those thatknow my podcast we are in a new
location.
So my wife and I just bought anew house here in Colorado
Springs, Colorado, so I have abrand new podcast studio.
Not super satisfied withRiverside's green screen
elimination technology here, butwe'll make do.
So I am in the basement of ournew house in a brand new podcast
studio, which I'll do a littleshort video on that so people
can see kind of what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm loving the brick.
It's really good.
I love the green behind yourears.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's really bringing out your eyes.
Yeah, we're going to have tochange that.
Midway through the podcast,people be like did he move?
No, no, I did not.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's wonderful, riverside.
Work on your elimination, youneed some help.
Speaking of financial, I'mcurious.
You know Dan Lee?
Yeah, absolutely yes.
It's so funny.
It's such a small world.
I was sitting in a staffmeeting yesterday and his name
came up on the slide and justrandom story.
That is completely off topicfrom the script.
But I knew nothing about what amedical service corps officer
(03:44):
was at all.
I'm relatively healthy.
I don't go to the clinic.
I have no idea what this careerfield even is.
I dive off boats in Guam doing alot of scuba diving and would
do like buddy checks on this guyand his two sons and you know,
make sure everyone's squaredaway and dive off the boat with
this guy.
He was really nice and cool andI knew nothing about him.
And then later on I stumbledacross MSC, I apply, I get
(04:10):
picked up and all these things,and later realized Dan Lee
should have been my 06 interviewwith, but he had left just a
few months before my interviewand that's who he was and so
didn't know he was an MSC,didn't even know what that job
was.
But it's a small world andyou'll end up bumping into
people again.
But I guess he's coming outhere.
Like April May.
I hope I get a chance to seehim again.
What year was that Nate?
2015 to 17 is when I was there.
(04:31):
I left in 17 when I got pickedup.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, big, big fan of retired Colonel Lee.
He was our pseudo chief ofstaff at SG-18.
We didn't have a secretary, sohe mentored me, helped me as I
was the exec for General Pye,and he is a remarkable human
being, very intelligent as well.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, it seems like the resources go farther.
I need to switch it up.
So far, my boss is VitorMcFarland, and then you know,
dan, not my supervisor, butthese people that are resources
that go the distance.
I guess readiness isn't whereit's at.
That's an all-star cast rightthere, some good ones.
Yeah, I've been lucky and veryblessed, but we'll start with
(05:14):
the warm-up.
Mike, what's a defining momentin your life that shaped your
passion for these three pillarsthat we talked about.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean, my year with General Pye did a lot of
shaping in many, many, many ways.
I had done shadowing at theexecutive level before with the
Army Baylor program.
My year Providence Health andServices with Preston Simmons,
the CEO of the Northwest Regionof Providence Health and
Services.
This was different.
It was really a true mentorship.
(05:37):
General Pye brought me underher wing, really showed me the
ins and outs of what it means tono kidding run the size and
scope of what she was dealingwith.
And you know, let's just take apause here real quick we
weren't talking the normal SG-18stuff.
We were talking about medicalreform 4684, which is kind of a
pseudo curse word here, whichI'm not allowed to curse and I
(06:00):
wouldn't anyways, butnonetheless 4684.
And a bunch of things that weregoing on on the heels of NDAA
2017.
And so to really watch her kindof navigate that stuff in very
intimate ways was really, reallyspecial.
And so I learned a lot ofthings from that.
I learned, you know, I wantedto be a high level health care
(06:21):
executive, but not necessarilyin the MHS.
That was a huge turning point.
I learned work-life balance.
I learned how to have fun whileworking extremely hard and she
is a master at creating cultureand her culture is fun.
But we also did a lot of workand worked long hours and so her
(06:42):
ability to kind of craft that,to build a team.
It shaped me, it propelled me,it basically pointed me in a new
direction in my career and whatI wanted to do in life.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So that term work-life balance has always
kind of drove me nuts.
If you could change those words, what would you change them to?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And likewise, by the way, what would I change it to?
Oh boy, no-transcript.
(07:36):
When you have identity,everything flows from that, and
that's a really broad topic thatI'd love to dive into sometime.
But when you have thatwork-life balance kind of flows
naturally.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, it's always interesting to me, like the
association of time with effort,like there's no connection with
that.
I've had co-workers that youknow came in early and left late
and part of me thinks theydidn't have a great family life,
but I don't know that for sure.
But they'd walk around most ofthe day with a coffee cup and
the bosses and whatnot be like,oh, they're doing so great,
(08:07):
they've been here for 10 hours.
And then I'd see anothercoworker I had where they would
get there exactly at 7.30 andleave.
They'd be almost by the door by4.30 to watch some music,
because their driving factor wastheir daughter.
So she had a driving factor, awhy her purpose?
And hey, I'm going to get home,soak up as much time as I can
(08:31):
with my child and recharge andcome back the next day.
But her tasks like if you sawher checklist of things that got
done, crushing it because I'mgoing to get out and be done by
4.30.
And so the correlation, likethe eight hours versus the 10
hours, it's not even in any waycomparable, like she was
destroying it and he was justhanging out with the coffee cup.
But people would see the 10hours and be so happy about it.
Isn't that weird, nate, this isa hot topic, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
It'll get me fired up because we and I say we.
I'm no longer a medical servicecorps officer, I'm long gone at
this point but there was thisweird badge of honor with
working long hours and when Iwas working for General Pye, she
tried to dispel that quite abit.
Everywhere we went she wouldask what are normal working
hours and she would leave at 521as a 21st Corps Chief every
(09:17):
single day and would she log inlate at night on a Monday night?
Yeah sure, did the staff knowthat?
No, they did not, because shedidn't want to set a precedent
of long hours.
And I think we haveunfortunately laid in an
incentive structure formally andinformally, by the way that
does not align with what we'retrying to achieve.
So we espouse work-life balance,which again another topic for
(09:40):
another day.
But then we applaud people whoit's like man there's.
There's Dave over there withhis coffee cup.
Did he leave last night?
There's a pillow in his office.
I think he slept on his couch.
Wow, what a hard worker.
It's like no, his family lifeis crumbling.
He has nothing outside of here,so all he has is relationships
at work and his identity iswrapped up in completing the
(10:03):
task and doing it well.
If you give him negativefeedback, there's going to be
some problems here, becausethat's all he has left and you
know it's.
There's so much of a need to gothrough the soft stuff in the
medical service corps like thisand really do kind of an
analysis.
And this goes hand in glovewith the stuff and all other
(10:23):
genre of conversation that wecould get into another time, but
I'll leave that there.
Like I said, that's a hot topicfor me, but an interesting one
nonetheless Shoot.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, we better not get into DEI.
We might be here way too long.
So your first main pillar isDEI.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I didn't say that's another 4684 and DEI are like
the F-bomb.
No, I said EI, emotionalintelligence.
Let's be real clear.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So, for anyone not aware, the number Mike is
referencing was a drawdown inthe medical service and it
happened right before COVID.
And so you know, obviously avery shock to the system where
public health and other serviceswere needed massively
throughout the pandemic andthings like that.
So it made people kind of pauseand wonder like, was that the
right direction or decision todraw down medical forces when we
do play a vital role?
But we needed that kind ofexample to show that and
(11:16):
unfortunately it came to came tothe pandemic.
But we'll get into the threemain pillars.
That's classic.
Your first one, helping othersdiscover identity and purpose.
And so, mike, why do you thinkso many people struggle to find
their true identity and purpose?
You know?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
an hour episode with the three pillars that we're
going to go through is justshortchanging these
conversations.
But I'm going to give theabsolute highest level of my
answer to that.
I think it's twofold.
I think, first of all, we inAmerica and then I would just
say generally in kind of aglobal state, are very
(11:53):
distracted and reactive, and Ithink both of those things put
us in a state where we're notactually doing the hard work
internally to look at ourselvesand say I need to prune that off
.
Here's something that I'mreally wrestling with.
Let me allow myself some timeto kind of wrestle with that and
work it out in my mind and myheart.
(12:14):
And this goes to a gratitudepractice which I think anybody
out there that's like man I'm apessimist, I'm really depressed,
I'm struggling with stuff.
Let me just offer up agratitude practice Four to five
things every single morning.
Write down that you're thankfulfor genuinely and then just
allow your mind and your heartto think about those things, to
(12:34):
meditate on those things.
Nate, I'm a Christian, so forme this meditation is synonymous
with my identity in Christ, butit doesn't have to be for those
that are not a Christian.
It's just one of those thingsthat you're grateful for.
And that moves into theidentity question for sure,
because once you understand whatthose things are at the most
(12:56):
fundamental level, then youoperate out of that identity.
And that's what we're talkingabout with work-life balance.
What is balance?
What are you balancing towardsif you have no idea at the core
who you are, what you weredesigned for?
The analogy I like to offer topeople and I'll pause after this
when you were a sixth grader,you had some bullies in the
cafeteria.
You had a group of friends.
I'm not going to say on airwhat my group of friends were.
(13:19):
Maybe, if you bring me back fora part two, I'll share that.
But you know, before the worldgot a hold of you, before
society said you know Mike's sixfoot eight, he's got to be good
at basketball, let's see whathe can do.
Before all of that, who wereyou Like?
What were your gifts?
What were you passionate about?
What were those things thatdrew you in?
Naturally, and at some point welose the wonder of life and life
(13:44):
just starts to demand of us toshape us, to push us.
And I woke up one day, two anda half years ago, and you know
successful career, lieutenantColonel in the Air Force,
medical Service Corps officer,all intensive purposes.
I was doing great.
But I was not happy and Irealized I had kind of been put
in this position in my life thatI didn't really want to be.
(14:06):
I had excelled in certain areas, I got the accolades, they said
great job.
And I was like, oh, certainlyI'm doing well.
But I never took the moment topause and say, but am I happy
with where I am?
Am I where I'm called to be?
And that's a much more profoundquestion.
And I think when people areseeking how to find contentment
in life, man, is that not themost important question you
(14:30):
could ask yourself and then giveyourself the time and space to
really consider it?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So I'm curious.
Well, I got two questions, butthe first one is with that
gratitude and thankfulness.
I'm curious.
Do you find yourself everrepeating the same ones or
things like that?
Does that have any loss?
Where you're saying good healthand family and friends, does
that kind of lose its lusterafter a while?
Or what does kind of those?
Does it come and go or ups anddowns, or what does that
(14:56):
gratitude you know those fiveevery day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, definitely overlaps and I have kind of a
go-to.
I'll share this one live on air.
This is straight to theaudience.
I'm going to break the curtainthere.
No, my daughter's smile issomething that, for whatever
reason, hits me in such a deeplevel, and every time I think
about it I'm just overwhelminglygrateful for the opportunity to
(15:22):
be a father, to love at a depthand in a way that I never
thought was possible, and sothat's kind of my cheat code, my
shortcut, if I ever feel like,oh man, life's rough right now,
there's a lot going on and Ineed just a quick fix of
gratitude.
I'll think about that.
I'll think about my daughterkind of putting her hand on my
(15:42):
cheek and giving me a hug, akiss on the forehead or cheek,
and yeah, that's my cheat code.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's a good one.
The other question I had wasdefining success.
I find it just so interesting.
So I had three different jobsin the Air Force.
I was air traffic first and Imoved over to contracting and I
didn't have anythingparticularly against the jobs.
They were fine, but I neverfelt the click.
You know where you're reallyexcited, you're ready to get in
there, you're, you know, excitedto take care of the people and
(16:09):
things like that.
And it wasn't until I found themedical service corps that like
the stars aligned and you feelthat click.
And that's eight years in and,like I said, I had no idea what
it was.
So for someone that is outthere and they, like you said,
like I'm okay and I'm, you know,winning some stuff, I feel good
, like how do you help them?
Like, define, like good andokay and actually finding that
(16:29):
purpose?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
How do you know you've arrived or do you know
Well, saying you've arrived isreally an interesting phrase,
but I think, allowing the spacein solitude and silence, space
in solitude and silence, andthat's something that we miss in
society in profound ways,especially in America,
(16:53):
especially as Air Force officers.
We're inundated withinformation and demands and
stresses and responsibility, andso for me, an irreplaceable
practice is 20, 30 minutes whereI'm not reading, I'm not
looking at anything, I'm justsilent.
And again, as a Christian, forme that's prayer, that's time
with the Lord, which, by the way, for me prayer is not just me
talking, it's also listening.
There's a great Mother Teresaquote that I won't go into here,
(17:15):
but well, I will, it's a greatquote.
It's a great quote.
They asked her about her prayerlife and she said, well, I pray
, I pray to God.
And they said, well, what doesGod do when you pray?
She goes, he listens, and ifyou don't understand that, you
don't understand prayer, andthat perplexed me for so long.
(17:36):
But anyways, I'll leave thatthere for your listeners to chew
on a little bit.
No, I think having that time tomeditate, to be free of the
stresses of life, is super,super important.
And what I tell people all thetime is accolades are great,
accolades are great.
They make us feel good.
There's something in our uniquedesign that resonates with that
.
But what I'm talking about cutsway beyond external validation.
It's an overflow of your heart,and there's only one way to get
(17:59):
there, and that's to spend timewith yourself.
And if you're not spending timewith yourself, then the answer
is quite easy you don't know whoyou are, and so you're just
putting on a mask and a facade.
There's a great book and I'llhave to share the title with you
because I can't remember offthe top of my head but it talks
about egos, which are basicallymasks that people put on, and
over time we add more and moremasks because of the external
(18:21):
validation that we receive, andit just feels good to be good at
stuff, and I get that.
I fell into the exact same trap.
But at some point, when yourealize who you are, what you
were designed for, what fillsyou up, you're going to start to
do things that, by societalviews, make zero sense.
I mean I got a lot of flack,nate, when I said, hey, I'm
(18:44):
getting out.
They're like you just put on.
Lieutenant Colonel, you'recrazy.
Five years until retirement.
What are you doing?
That's stupid.
I'm like I can understand whyfrom your perspective that's
stupid, but for me it's acalling, it's something that I
feel called to do, and so I'llleave that there.
But did that kind of get atwhat you were asking?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And the next one is kind of tocontinue to expand on what you
were talking about.
I love actionable tips andtricks, so what tools or
resources do you recommend forthose seeking deeper
self-recovery or discovery?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Wow, Discovery and recovery.
Actually both are appropriate.
You have to discover andrecover from an external
validation mindset, and there'sa people-pleasing element to
that I even think about.
I'm 6'8", so I was pushed intobasketball.
But even the accolades I wasconference first team,
(19:40):
all-conference in high school,all-state, mcdonald's,
all-american nominee, and so Iwas like surely this is the
direction I'm supposed to head.
And you never really pause andit's so easy to fall into that.
And so I guess what I would sayto listeners as just a starting
point, is what are those things,those mechanisms that pulled
you into almost a train ofthought, a particular career
(20:03):
path, whatever, that is, thatyou didn't make a conscious
decision or really spend thetime to think is this who I am,
what I want to do?
And it's an easy answer forthose that don't have any space
to do that or take the time tomeditate or be in silence.
Guarantee you, guarantee youthere's something propelling you
(20:23):
externally.
And I'm not saying all externalvalidation or input is bad.
Certainly, as a father, I lovemy children with all of my heart
, I love my wife with all myheart, and so it's important to
me that that connection is tight, and so certainly I'm always
gauging the connection to makesure that I'm doing a good job
as a father and as a husband.
(20:45):
But the question really is,what's driving you, what is at
the core of who you are?
And so, again, it just reallygoes back to people creating the
space to do the hard work.
And I do say I'll leave thishere, nate, but I do say the
hard work because I think peoplealmost mystify this time and
say I'm going to give my 20minutes and then they get
(21:06):
distracted with their phone orstart thinking about all the
stuff they have to do.
The hard work is there's anintentionality behind this and
that's really being present inthat moment with yourself and
for those Christians beingpresent with the Lord.
And that takes anintentionality, that takes an
active role.
That's not just like all right,I created the space, sweet, I
(21:28):
was on my phone the whole timesending emails.
It's like you didn't do it, youdidn't do the hard.
I was like this is the thing Ihave to do.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But like, at the deeper level, I didn't really
understand and it was kind of anepiphany in the middle of my
interview, which is probably notthe right time.
You should probably have thatepiphany before the interview,
(21:56):
but it was interesting because Iremember this like complete
match.
And so they asked, like youknow, why do you want to do it
or something?
And I had been to ALS and so Italked about the four lenses and
I'm like I'm off the chartsblue and orange, Like I have
none of the other two at thetime my brother and I'm like.
So I'm like, okay, so let mewalk you through.
Like how I'm the match Likeorange, I get bored, I get
(22:20):
stagnant, I have to continue tolearn something or I just get
bored out of my mind.
So I'm like you change careersin essence, you know within one
career field every couple ofyears, like I have wanted that
for the longest time.
And then I'm like, oh, I'm blueand I'm like you want to talk
about, you know, parties.
Like I annoy my wife becauseI'm walking around and checking
on everyone hey, is thetemperature good?
(22:40):
Can I grab you a drink?
Like I'm annoying her on howmuch I'm checking on the party.
And like to your point, likethat's me at my core, like
that's me on the good day,that's me on Monday, that's me
on Friday.
Like it doesn't matter, that'sme as, as who I am.
And so I think when you findthat thing, like you don't have
to think, you don't have to putany effort, extra effort or
anything like that it reallyjust like clicks, like that's
(23:02):
that's who I'm bringing.
Every day I'm going to helppeople.
I'm also going to pass out ofblood and needles, so I'm glad
I'm not on the front side of thehouse, but I will help and take
care of anyone anytime, and soI think that's really you know,
kind of what you were saying.
You just find that match whereit's just the thing that it's
supposed to be.
And I think you know, like thesilence, which I'm super glad
you brought that up.
I know a few different guestshave brought that up, but I'm
(23:23):
glad you know we're bringingthat up more and more because it
just seems like we're supposedto go faster and do more and now
we have Google, you can get anyanswer in a matter of seconds.
We want fast food, everything'sfast, but I think there's
definitely something in that, inthat slowing down and the quiet
.
That's super important.
Anything else on that?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
No, I think that's extremely well said, and when
you're in that role or state toyour point, it's just easier.
It doesn't feel like work and Ithink part of the confusion
again it goes back to externalvalidation, because officers are
oftentimes alpha personalities.
They want to perform, they wantto do well, they're going to
grid it out.
This is not to say that youcan't flex.
(24:02):
I flexed, I would say, thesecond half of my time at DHHQ
on the financial side.
I'm a blue orange as well, somy year with General Pi was
great because she's also a blueorange, I would say, in terms of
the work demand.
I had to flex the gold a littlebit, for sure, and a little bit
of green to make sure the stuffgetting to her made sense and
(24:25):
was tight, but for sure, and alittle bit of green to make sure
the stuff getting to her madesense and was tight.
But it's not to say that wecan't flex.
That's going to take extraenergy to do that and really
what we're talking about is, bynature, who are you?
And so there's people thataren't willing to take the risk
and say you know what, 15 yearsI'm going to hop out.
That's okay.
I would never ask somebody todo that, but I think it's a
(24:46):
worthwhile exercise to considerwhat those things are, that you
naturally are, and just simplyunderstand that when you're
outside of that, there's a drawthat's occurring.
There's an energy draw that'soccurring that'll have to be
restored over time.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, it's interesting.
It reminds me of two things.
One I remember taking it ALSand they were like well, you can
shift based on you know whatkind of roles you're in and
things like that.
And I remember looking at myinstructor, I'm like you're,
you're crazy, I'm blue orange,I'm always going to be blue
orange.
And then I had to take it at SOSand all of a sudden they've all
kind of evened out, because nowI have to have organization and
(25:21):
that gold and the check boxesand moving through things and I
have to be somewhat logical withthe green and things like that.
So it is kind of funny because Ithought that was baloney as a
young senior airman andobviously you know, you think
you know everything at thesenior airman level, but that's
not the case.
And the other thing I find isso interesting is that SOS, not
SOS, ots.
(25:41):
I remember they said you'llhave no bad days and so when I
crossed over I was like I'mgoing to be tough and I'm going
to be stern and I'm going to be,and that like lasts for a
couple of months and you'retired and drained, like you're
saying.
And then I'm like OK, now I'mjoking and you know, being the
person I am and I always was,and so it's interesting that you
said the egos and the mass, soyou can try to kind of put it on
(26:02):
there for a little while.
I'm like, I'm uptight, I'm theofficer, I'm like, oh no, I just
got to be who I am and that'sthe rub.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
A quick plug for General Pye, who I don't ever
shy away from sharing openly howbig of a fan I am of her, but
have you ever met a generalofficer that was more
authentically themselves?
I mean there's.
I don't know if you pop upphotos here, but there's
thousands of photos with her ina costume In SLW in 2019, she
(26:32):
wore I think it was PrincessLeia.
Maybe I'm conflating too, butshe is just who she is, and I
think when you get to that level, kind of what you're saying,
nate, there's a power and astrength.
People can feel it's one thingto say something and it's like,
okay, I've got subordinates,they're going to go execute this
stuff.
Sure, but how does yourleadership make people feel?
(26:55):
And when you're tapped into whoyou are and that's actually
flowing out of you, there's astrength.
There's a tangible strengthbehind that leadership, and Zach
Gooch, a really, really goodfriend of mine, shared the story
on my podcast.
It was General Pi's first day atDHHQ and she started a
conversation around a desk andall of a sudden, there was 5
(27:17):
other people, 10 other people,20.
And maybe 45 minutes into it,there was a crowd of like 45, 50
people around her.
She didn't call a meeting, shedidn't ask anybody to come over,
it was just her laugh wasinfectious.
She was cracking jokes, she wasconnecting with people, she was
(27:38):
learning who people were.
She would make these fun littlenicknames for people all the
time.
Mcrib is one that stands out.
She literally called McRibMcRib for like a year straight
because he loved McRibs and thatwas then his name, and so that
goes a little bit in the cultureconversation.
But yeah, no, I totally agreewith what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Be yourself.
It took me you know 30 some oddyears, but, geez, be yourself.
The next pillar you have, mike,is the broken healthcare system
.
So can you touch on again,wavetops?
Because, geez's, we could talkall day, but what?
What are some of the biggestflaws in the current healthcare
system?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, Wavetops Cause now we're.
You know, identity is one thingand this is like all right, now
we're in professional territory, so I can go 10 miles deep, all
right, wavetops.
So the U?
S?
Google online cost versusquality countries and you will
find no shortage of graphs, data, research on cost versus
(28:28):
quality and among the 10 highestGDP countries in the world.
So, theoretically, the mostestablished, the most successful
, the US is the lowest inquality and highest in cost.
But here's the thing You'd belike oh wow, that's kind of
crazy.
It's not even close.
Nate, there's a grouping andthat's the other nine.
(28:49):
So it's like the nine are hereand then the Medical Service
Corps is.
I just saw what was happening onthe outside and I've got all
(29:11):
the license and certificationsand master's degrees and all
that stuff, and so I kind ofhave a unique insight into what
it specifically means for thesystem to be broken.
That term is kind of thrown outthere.
Right, people are like bigpharma.
It's like, yes, true, but whatdoes that specifically mean?
Like, what is internationalsourcing?
What are referrals for the PBM?
(29:32):
Like, how did these processeswork?
And so my desire, so who I amas an individual?
Going back to the first, I canhelp somebody and they are
appreciative and feel energizedby me just serving them.
So, combining that with my kindof clear understanding of what
(29:57):
needs to occur and what's brokenin the US healthcare system,
those converge into the rolethat I'm in now with IOA.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
That's a perfect segue.
What would an ideal healthcaresystem look like if you could
build it from the ground?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
up.
There's no way that I'm readingthe questions and placing
transitions for you, nate, I'malso like I understand as well
that I'm going a little bitdeeper.
This is the problem when yougive a podcast host a microphone
to talk because we're used toasking questions it's like oh, I
can pontificate a little bithere.
What would be an idealhealthcare system?
Okay, right off the rip, andlet me couch this a little bit
(30:34):
as it relates to the UShealthcare system, I think it's
a separate conversation to sayif we restored healthcare in the
world, what would that looklike?
Let me couch it in the UShealthcare system as it relates
to it being broken.
How do we get it to a statethat's functional?
The number one answer, I wouldsay, is transparency, without a
question, transparency.
(30:54):
And then, specifically in thepharmaceutical industry, if we
could get to price transparency,I think people sense and feel
that what is happening is notgood High level wave tops.
Right.
If there was transparency inwhy, I think there would be an
outcry from employers, fromemployees, from US citizens, and
(31:15):
I think if they saw a peekbehind the curtain, there'd be a
lot of things occurring up atCongress for sure, very quickly.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So do you think that would be like the price of
aspirin is always the price ofaspirin and things like that.
Or can you expand on what youmean by transparency?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, and again, just staying with the pharmacy side,
I think we're lagging behind.
I got to be careful here, nate.
So we are lagging behind othercountries in terms of regulatory
reform and legislature, as itrelates to price transparency,
capping necessary medicationsand I am very familiar with all
(31:53):
the conversations because we areby far one of the most
innovative countries in terms ofpharmaceutical development, r&d
.
Specialized healthcare Sure,yes, I will concede those facts
for sure.
But when we talk about layingin the pharmaceuticals
programmatically across theUnited States I'm going to use a
term here this might get meinto some trouble they are price
(32:15):
gouging US citizens, simpleenough.
Look at the definition of pricegouging and I'll back that up
by saying there is some lawyersright now going after Fortune 10
, fortune 50 companies for thatexact thing.
Officers in those publiclytraded companies have a
fiduciary responsibility fortheir stakeholders and how they
lead and govern their employees.
(32:37):
Well, when you're chargingsomebody $1,000 for a $10
medication, there's a problemwith that.
And you're going to say, oh,that's what the health plan says
.
Okay, you're the CEO, you areresponsible to your stakeholders
, and charging an additional$990.
And now we're talking lay thatout.
Let's say, you've got 100,000employees.
We're not talking about $990.
(32:58):
We're talking about $20 millionfor a single drug, obviously
speaking of the Fortune 10companies, and so that's what
the lawyers are going after.
But when I say transparency,that's what I mean.
I don't think people realizejust how big the numbers get,
and that's really all I want todo.
It's why I do a free analysisfor companies.
I just want them to see what'shappening and, from somebody
(33:22):
with a master's degree orseveral master's degree
certifications, to go in to lookat the nuances, to look at the
complicated nature of healthcareand say, hey, you are getting
quote gouged for $10 millionover here, oh, and here's
another 19 million, so on and soforth.
That's my goal, that's mymission.
It's not about money, but thisis the sweet spot, right?
You talk about being yourselfand, after you became an officer
(33:45):
, having fun and kind of cuttingit up with your staff.
This is me.
I want to go into thecomplicated stuff and serve
people, and so I'm living out mypassion, I'm living out who I
am, and it's a really excitingseason to be in, because
everything is coming to a point.
Right now in the healthcaresystem, there's a demand for
change, there's a demand forchange, there's a demand for
(34:07):
innovation.
There's things happening withprice transparency, rfk Jr, with
Trump pushing certain reformsin the healthcare industry, it
is perfect time for the stuffthat we're doing with IOA.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
That's awesome.
So for all the people that areout there have no experience,
aren't healthcare things likethat?
Maybe this is out of order, butmaybe, to back up a little bit,
could you kind of walk usthrough incentive structure and
how that doesn't really play tolike good, you know, good health
outcomes Sure Again wavetop.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So we'll stay.
We'll stay on thepharmaceutical side, cause
that's, this is the lowesthanging fruit.
Like when you know, when you gointo a new organization and
obviously you want to do a goodjob, and so your commander's
like, all right, tell me whatyou think.
And you go in.
You're like this person istaking a medical record, they're
scanning it, they're faxing itto themselves, then they're
loading it back in for a digitalrecord.
(34:57):
You're like, oh my gosh,awesome, right off the rip I
could save two FTEs because Ijust need to scan it and go.
That kind of stuff, it's soobvious.
That is the pharmaceuticalindustry right now in America.
It's the lowest hanging fruit,but the amounts associated with
it are astronomically big.
So the reason for this, for thepharmaceutical side, again,
(35:19):
that's where we'll stay.
Okay, so two points.
So international outsourcingfor pharmaceuticals is how we
can save money pretty easily.
There's an inflated cost withmanufacturing, with development,
all sorts of stuff.
That again, I'll stay highlevel.
That would keep that in theUnited States.
It's why everybody uses the US,inside the US, for their
(35:41):
pharmaceuticals.
Well, there's precedent now incertain states Colorado is one
of them, florida, there areseveral others that allow
legally to outsource throughCanada, where medications are a
10th the cost in the US, and sothere's absolutely regulated,
professional, very clear linesof effort to just simply
(36:06):
outsource through Canada forpharmaceuticals.
The second, and talkingspecifically about the incentive
structure, is PBMs.
Pharmacy benefit managers getrebates for certain drugs, and
so they have a tiered list and Iwon't go too deep into that,
but they have a tiered list ofwhat is an approved medication
and that is directly tied to howmuch money the PBM gets back.
(36:28):
I'm going to pause there.
Did you hear what I just said,nate?
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah, how wild is that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
It's so obvious when you peelback the curtain you're like
what?
That's illegal.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
No, it's not.
And all these things we alwaystalk about checks and balances
and government, or even like thegovernment purchase card,
Someone's got to check it andmake sure.
It's just kind of wild to think, like you said you say it out
loud like no one really checksout, Like they just get money
for choosing certain things thatmaybe not be the best for the
patient.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
But we're talking about trillions of dollars.
This isn't like a couplemillion dollars that we could
save in the Air Force.
We're talking about trillionsof dollars, and so that's why I
use the word transparency.
I want people to see what thosethings are.
I want them to see why thecosts of medications are so high
, and it's not the only way.
There are regulatedalternatives that are both legal
(37:19):
and professionally managed thatcan cut costs by 50% or more
for a lot of these employers.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
So that's a perfect segue again into the next
question.
So you're someone, you work atthe company.
You're not the boss, you'rejust part of a plan.
What can individuals do to takecharge of their own health?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah Well, let me back up here Take charge of
their health or take charge oftheir health plan Two separate
conversations.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Maybe both.
I mean, if you have a betterplan, you have better health,
right?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
All right, I will stay really high level here.
Nate, I promise you Okay, OkayHealth plan.
Just reach out to me I'm happyto do a free assessment with.
I'm not looking for money, I'mnot looking to get paid, I'm not
looking for your businessnecessarily.
If it goes well, great.
But genuinely, like I said, Iwant to help people see the
nuances of their health plansand save them money.
(38:10):
Individual health, I would sayconsistency is the enemy of
mediocrity, and if my wifelistens to this episode, she's
going to smile because she hearsme say that all the time.
Consistency is the killer Aboveany extreme diet program, any
workout program.
If you're consistent, you willwin.
And so one of those things thatyou can commit to consistently
sometimes it's just getting outand doing a one mile walk or jog
(38:33):
every single day Pick thosethings that you can be
consistent with Drinking water,getting sleep.
There's so many things that areuniversally accepted but not
many people actually implementthem.
Well, take those things I justlisted a few Drink water, get
better sleep, get moving, Do itwith consistency, Build a habit,
build a routine and then add toit.
(38:53):
So my personal transformation.
So two and a half years ago, Iwas 285 pounds and I went on a
personal journey, spiritually,mentally, physically, where I
found myself one day I was 220pounds and ripped like gained.
A ton of muscle was justshredded, and that was less to
do with me trying to getshredded and more to do with I
(39:15):
had an intentionality, I had aplan that I committed to, and
one of those things was workingout, and so I listened to
Audible.
I would listen to a book everysingle morning while I worked
out, and a good friend of mine,Ben Garland, recommended to me
Miracle Morning, and so I usedthat as the structure for about
a year and then kind of adaptedit to be my own over time.
But that's what I wouldrecommend consistency.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
So I'd like to try to get you to expand a little bit
more on the health plans.
I love the connection to youand getting that help and things
like that, but connection toyou and getting that help and
things like that.
But are there documents thatsomeone can download or they're
huge red flags or the thingssomeone could go and like log
into their account or you know?
I mean I guess it's based,probably maybe too broad for for
everybody because their plansare so different.
(39:57):
But are there things that, likeyou know universally, where you
could check on a few things andsee if it's completely out of
whack?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
So we're getting in the territory of claims data and
understanding internationaloutsourcing.
I would say this here's ananswer If you're able to discern
whether or not yourpharmaceuticals are coming from
the US or outside the US, that'sa great starting point.
If they're coming from the US,I can guarantee you, guarantee
you, I'd put money on it.
I bet anybody out there that'slistening that you are
(40:24):
overpaying significantly foryour pharmacy benefit.
I think once you get in andlet's just say this, I'm just
going to say this out loud thehealthcare industry is, I think,
intentionally messy and complex, because that creates a barrier
to entry for HR directors, cfos, people that don't have an MHA
(40:45):
or a fellow of the AmericanCollege of Healthcare Executives
or a licensed health benefitsbroker.
You need all of these things tojust simply understand how to
look at the nuances of the plan,and so I would say start there,
start with the internationaloutsourcing.
If you can discern that andcertainly there's other stuff I
(41:09):
don't want to go outside of thepharmacy because then it gets
incredibly complex.
So, just for reference, when Iwould go in and I would take on
a healthcare plan for anemployer, which is what I do as
a Senior Vice President ofStrategic Partnerships with IOA.
I kind of stand in the gap of aCigna, blue Cross, blue Shield.
There's about 30 to 40, maybemore, maybe less, is that I'm
(41:33):
going to look at.
So, stop loss, mental vision,all these different things that
have their own categories, andwithin those categories there's
deep, deep nuances to how toimplement those programs, and so
it's so complex that it keepsthe everyday people out, it
keeps the HR director out, itkeeps the CFO out.
So could they go in and savemoney?
Sure, but it's extremelycomplicated.
(41:56):
And it's exactly why theyrequire licenses and master's
degrees and certifications,because if you go in and you
muck something up, people'slives are at risk.
And oh, by the way, there'slike stacks of law, there's
stacks of state law, all sortsof stuff that would keep the
everyday person from looking attheir health plan, which I think
, is by design.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Dang.
That's definitely eye-opening.
It seems like it's there for areason.
Your last pillar is giving tothe nations in the deepest area
of poverty.
So what first inspired you toserve communities in extreme
poverty?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah.
So this is like a superpersonal question to me, because
I'm ashamed to say that.
I think distraction issomething that keeps us from
considering the rest of theworld we are.
There's nobody in Americathat's not wealthy.
There's an extreme statement byworldly standards.
(42:47):
You know, when we're talkingabout the 1040 window, which is
that area over in Asia and I'llleave people to Google that on
their own time but we're talkingabout 80 plus percent of the
world's poverty.
So you know we can go get cleanwater and have a drink.
That is not the case in the1040 window.
There's food available atpretty much every single corner
(43:09):
also not available.
There's these things that wetake for granted, and I think
that's another opportunity forus to be grateful in America,
but it's also a calling for usto Okay.
So there's a book called theTrellis and the Vine Great book,
but it also talks about poverty, and so, by American standards,
we often consider poverty as adirect association with material
(43:30):
poverty.
Great Sure, there's people thathave less money, have less
means, absolutely.
But there's also spiritualpoverty, and so the great irony
of life is you could go over tosome of these very remote cities
in the 1040 window, some ofthese very remote cities.
In the 1040 window, theseremote towns or tribes or
villages, spiritual wealth isthrough the roof.
(43:54):
And when I say spiritual, youcould take that a myriad of ways
.
I'm not necessarily just sayingspiritual in terms of my faith
in Christ, but spiritual just interms of gratitude, abundance,
you know, contentment.
What's contentment?
Great, these are good words.
So there's a transfer of quotewealth that I think we're being
called into as Americans,because there's so many
Americans that are just in deep,deep spiritual poverty, deep
(44:16):
spiritual poverty.
And the great irony of life isoften those with the highest
material wealth have thegreatest spiritual poverty, and
so I think the beauty of this iswe can transfer material wealth
to those that have spiritualwealth, and the beauty of it is
that in return we get spiritualwealth, even though we may be
(44:39):
losing some of our materialwealth, if that makes sense.
So I was introduced to this byone of my best friends, kj
Rendawa, who was a classmate ofmine.
He simultaneously got out at 14and a half years from the Air
Force, also on a great careertrajectory, was doing extremely
well, probably one of thegreatest leaders I've ever met
in my life.
So he moved out here toColorado Springs, actually three
minutes up the road from thisnew house, which is crazy.
(45:01):
But he joined aimsorg as theinternational mobilization
director and I love this man andI love his heart, and so I was
introduced by him to the great,great need and really as a
medical service corps officer.
I love the structure.
They basically have a CRM thatorganizes all the business
requirements and so they havethese local native businesses
(45:24):
that sustain villages, tribes,local areas and basically
infuses commerce throughmicroloans.
It's a really, reallyintriguing and well-organized
model.
You could go into any excuse meFortune 500 company and it'll
rival that shoulder to shoulder,which I've never seen in a
nonprofit ministry organization,and so I love their efficiency,
(45:46):
I love the way they do whatthey do and certainly the need
itself is tremendous.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's awesome.
That is some really good stuff.
I'm curious, I love stories, soI'm hoping can you share a
story where you've seen theimpact from giving time, talent
and treasure, rather than justmoney?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
You know, I think rather than a specific incident,
because I want to be carefulwith anonymity and respecting
names and people but certainlythe greatest joy of my life is
mentoring people, pouring intothem, and I'll say this if you
don't have a mechanism forgiving back, I'm not even going
to say like shame on you oranything like that.
(46:26):
What I'm going to say is you'remissing out, because we were
created to give.
I guarantee you, at the verycore of who you are as a human
being, there's something insideof you that wants to give your
time, treasure and talent, andso for me, it's life-giving to
spend the time, theintentionality, and there's
nothing that can replace thiseye contact.
(46:46):
I mean it's life-giving tospend the time, the
intentionality, and there'snothing that can replace this
eye contact.
I mean it's even betterface-to-face, right, because you
can feel and feed off eachother.
Nate, you and I have greatchemistry, but it's even better
in person.
You get something from thattransaction at one of the
deepest levels that you canunderstand.
And then, obviously, the peoplethat you're giving that to
there's at a minimumappreciation, but you have an
(47:08):
opportunity to share experiences, to give sacrificially to these
people that are in great need,and we've already broken out two
of those distinctions.
There's spiritual and material,but there's so many other
things and the transaction isthere.
It's not just one way, and Ithink a lot of people want to
think oh, I'm giving, it's oneway.
They get, I get nothing.
(47:29):
Nope, ask anybody that iswealthy that gives away millions
of dollars.
Ask them how they feel aboutgiving.
I guarantee you most of themwill say it's the most
significant thing they do,because we're hardwired to think
and feel that way.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's the way that we were designed.
Well, mike.
The final takeaway if someoneis feeling lost in purpose or
overwhelmed by today's problems.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
What's one piece of advice you'd give them?
Yeah, I'm going to stay ontheme here.
Just to be concise and simple,I'm going to say take the time,
take the time.
And you're going to say I don'thave the time and I'm going to
challenge you on that.
I think so many Americans areinundated with things and
they're feeding their body likecrap.
They're not reading books togrow and the sad reality of that
(48:14):
a lot of them are drinkingalcohol.
They're robbing themselves ofgood sleep and restoration,
they're not doing the thingswith intentionality and time to
get to a good space, and so theywake up in the morning 7, 7.30,
roll out of bed, head straightto work.
They're depressed, they'repessimistic.
You will get more energy, youwill have more time when you
start to do those things thatyou know are good, and that was
(48:37):
the origins of the it Is Goodpodcast.
Quick plug it Is Good podcast.
Sorry, nate, but that's thegenesis of laying in those
things that you trust and havefaith.
The outcome will be good.
And I think the lie that a lotof people believe is I don't
have the time.
Change some stuff and see howmuch time you have.
I get seven hours of sleep anight and it's great rest.
(48:59):
I feel really energized.
I have a ton of energy, mymental clarity is through the
roof, but I also don't eat junkfood regularly.
I don't drink, I take care ofmyself, I'm intentional, I
allocate time to things that areimportant, and I think I would
say that same thing to thelisteners Spend the time and be
intentional.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
There is time if you make it Well.
Thank you, mike, for coming out.
I wanted to ask you where canpeople connect with you and
learn a little bit more aboutyou?
I guess you just mentioned it.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yeah, my tag is at TallMikeMcClain.
I'm 6'8".
By the way, for those thatdon't know, At TallMikeMcClain
I've got a podcast.
It is a good podcast.
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
That's a great way to start.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
That's probably my primary primary social media on
LinkedIn.
Perfect.
Well, that's a wrap.
Thanks for tuning in.
Don't forget to keep theconversation going.
Find us on Instagram, Facebook,TikTok, YouTube or Buzzsprout
and share your thoughts, Please,if you can drop a review.
(50:58):
I love you all.
See ya, Thank you.
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