June 11, 2025 • 50 mins
I would love to hear from you!
Josh Grandinetti, a firefighter and paramedic with 15 years of experience, shares his journey of discovering mindfulness meditation as a solution to the anxiety and post-traumatic stress that developed during his career. His mission is to help first responders take charge of their mental health proactively through his organization Foundation Fortify, offering free meditation resources specifically designed for those in emergency services.
• First responders develop a "feedback loop of the mind" where they're constantly on alert, eventually causing them to self-dispatch to false emergencies in their personal lives
• Mindfulness meditation is the practice of being aware of your moment-to-moment experience without judging it
• Just 5-10 minutes of daily mindfulness practice can provide significant mental health benefits without requiring spiritual commitment
• Self-compassion is crucial for first responders who map their communities through trauma but never see the resolution of these stories
• Western society is only beginning to understand mental health training, similar to how we discovered physical fitness benefits decades ago
• First responders need preventative mental health tools before developing negative coping mechanisms
• Making a difference in your community starts with using your attention more deliberately instead of wasting it on "brain rot"
Visit Foundation Fortify to access free mindfulness meditation resources designed specifically for first responders, or subscribe for expanded content.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hi everyone, I'm Nate Shearer and this is Mindforce.
Join me as we explore love,life and learning, because your
mind is what matters here.
Today we have Josh Grandinettiand today we'll be talking about
mindfulness, meditation, firstresponders and giving back.
So, Josh, we'll start with theeasy stuff the background, the
who, who are you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What makes you you?
Yeah, so you know, born andraised in Arizona, married 14
years and I have two boys.
I've been a firefighter forabout 15 years and I've been
serving as a captain about fiveyears at that time and I've also
been a certified paramedic for12 years of my firefighting
career.
So I've been up to this careerfor quite some time and, you
know, midway through my firecareer I kind of started to
(01:04):
develop some anxiety, you know,and some PTS, you know
post-traumatic stress, before itbecame a disorder, you know,
and you always hear about copingmechanisms first responders can
go and discover before wediscover the negative coping
mechanisms that come with ourjobs, right?
Well, one of those that wasalways teased out there was
meditation, mindfulness, but noone.
Where do you go?
(01:24):
Where do you go to find this,you know?
And so I kind of waded througha lot of religious dogmatism and
strange practices and differenttypes of you know environments
before I could really get somebenefits of mindfulness under me
and I began to feel that.
So I began writing a curriculumfor first responders about six
years ago and that kind of youknow collected dirt on my shelf
(01:46):
for about six years until arecent on-duty knee injury gave
me the time and space to becomea mindfulness instructor and
begin producing a platform forfirst responders.
They can go to DiscoverMeditation for free, all taught,
so that they have a place to go, if it's ever you know
something they want to come andfind to help cope with something
small.
(02:06):
You know, mindfulness is kindof a preventative for us and
first responders, unfortunately,are a little bit too
reactionary about mental healththese days.
You know we wait until you needa therapist or some medication
and mindfulness just offers us away to, you know, kind of take
our mental health into our ownhands, like we do our physical
health, and try to prevent someof these mental health diseases.
(02:26):
So that's what I'm up to atFoundation Fortify.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I love that and that wasone of the reasons I named the
podcast Mental Fitness.
I really love the idea andthought that goes into something
that you're always doing.
I feel like when we say mentalhealth, it's a building, it's an
appointment, it's a thing thatyou go and do and then you never
do again, or you go on yourworst day ever.
For some reason, we wait for itto be rock bottom before we
(02:50):
enter, and so I love the idea ofmental fitness and the word
being like I relate to, likecardio.
You know you're hitting thetreadmill three times a week.
You don't just go and do itonce and stop doing it.
You do it every week.
So I love your thoughts and Ilove how that aligns with the
show.
So you kind of touched on whoyou are and what you're doing.
Why are you here today?
I'm here today.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I was kind of trying to discover, like podcast hosts,
that might be interested infinding someone who's trying to
do something in the world for aspecific group of people and
just kind of promote what I'm upto and try to get the word out
there.
Everyone knows a firstresponder, everybody knows a
firefighter or a police officeror a paramedic or a dispatcher,
and everyone knows the strugglesthat person has probably had at
(03:33):
some point or another in theirlife trying to be an upstanding
citizen doing the work that wedo, and so it's just good to be
able to get out there and getthe message out Because, like I
said, I have a completely freeprogram that I just want all
first responders to have accessto, and, of course, I have a
subscriber side that's veryinexpensive, but I just want to
be able to get mindfulness outto all first responders so they
(03:53):
have somewhere that they can goto discover it, regardless of
whether or not anyone everbecomes a subscriber.
I just believe that this isvery beneficial.
It's like you were saying and ina way, we're treating our
mental health the same way weused to treat our physical
health Back before diet andexercise.
We kind of just all ran withour bodies and you were kind of
just luck of the draw.
You were given what you weregiven and then we discovered
(04:15):
some diet and exercise and howwe kind of shape our bodies to
avoid certain outcomes.
And Western medicine is stillvery kind of slow.
We're still treating mentalhealth like luck of the draw.
You're just given theexperiences you're given and
you're given the mind thatyou're given and good luck.
But the you know the East hashad something to say about that
for a long time when it comes totraining the mind through
(04:36):
mindfulness practices of variousforms, and so I'm just trying
to bring kind of Easternpractice and mindfulness,
diluted of all the dogmatism,and produce it for one of
society's most importantindustries.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, I love that it's all goodstuff because I think it's just
so odd to me.
I mentioned on the show beforeand I'm probably repeating so
hopefully people don't have tosuffer through it for too long
but it's just so weird to me.
Like the physical body, asyou're walking into the gym or
something like people will talkoh, I'm doing back and bys, I'm
doing, you know, two by 10 andI'm going to do these, and we
(05:08):
openly talk about these workouts, we have magazines for it and
all these things.
But when you get into the mentalhealth realm, it's like I can't
talk about that.
It's like why, why not?
The brain is another part ofyour body.
And you're talking about, youknow, legs.
I did leg day yesterday andit's just open and it's out
there.
But it's like, oh, I sat in thepark and, you know, had some
mindfulness for myself.
(05:29):
Like, ooh, can't do, like it'sjust really bizarre to me and
I'm glad that we're finally.
You know, transition.
I'm super glad you're here andthe last question I had for you
was where in the world are youcalling from?
You already said Arizona, so wechecked all those.
But I'm excited to get intothis because I think meditation
is super important and it's oneof those things I think often
you know commonly, you knowmisknown or things like that,
(05:50):
like oh, I got to sit thiscertain way, I have to do this
thing.
You know, kind of a hippie typething, so super excited to get
into it.
But before we do, a few warm-upquestions for you.
Josh, how did you first I thinkyou touched on it a little bit,
but how did you first getintroduced into mindfulness
meditation?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh man that's a funny question I would say, my first
introduction into meditation.
I remember being in this recordstore with my father and I keep
meaning to look up the bandname.
I think it's Rage Against theMachine.
I think I grabbed this disc Iwas looking at and I'm showing
my age here because it was a CDI'm looking at it, it and
(06:30):
there's this man sitting andhe's half engulfed in fire and
he's just sitting in ameditation pose.
And I just remember, you know,not being intimidated by the
image but not being able to lookaway from the image as well.
You know, a couple years afterthat, I discovered what that
image was.
It was a vietnamese um monkthat was protesting the war and
he self-immolated in order tosend a message.
Long and short of it.
I have no interest inself-immolating or nothing, but
(06:51):
the practice of mindfulness justreally spoke to me.
You know, like that was a veryinteresting like.
How could that be somethingsomebody finds worthwhile doing,
you know?
So I was introduced tomindfulness just through the air
, just like many of us are.
You know, we think aboutmindfulness meditation.
We see the orange suits, thebald heads, we see the
mountaintops and all thestrangeness, you know, and we
(07:12):
don't know how to relate to it.
But when I got in the firstresponse, I noticed my anxiety
was just starting to bedischarged onto my wife a little
bit unfairly, and onto mychildren a little bit unfairly.
I would start to.
I call it the responder feedbackloop of the mind.
You know, when you announce youwant to be a first responder,
regardless of the discipline Ihappen to be a firefighter,
slash paramedic, but there's,you know, police officers,
(07:34):
correctional officers,dispatchers as well, who are all
part of the network.
Well, when you announce youwant to do something like this,
you begin training your mind torespond.
By definition, you have to beable to respond to the needs of
others over an empty stomach orsomething so trivial as that, in
order to affect change forpeople, right?
So you just begin dispatchingand responding to problems and
(07:54):
responding to problems, and wecan do this fairly well for the
first couple years.
We can, you know, kind ofseparate the two worlds.
But after training your mind torespond to harm and to problems
over the course of a decade,you begin to your mind invents
problems for you to respond to.
Now.
Now you're self-dispatching tofalse emergencies within your
(08:15):
mind and within your personallife.
You start discharging all thisstress onto your family, and
this is just the consequence ofhaving a responding mind, and
mindfulness is just a placewhere we can go to not respond
to the false dispatches of ourminds.
That is the practice.
The practice is learning how toget off the ride, learning
what's real to respond to andwhat's just made up storytelling
(08:37):
in the mind.
You know this is part of whatcan help first responders with
their putting down the job andjust living a life that is
actually in front of them.
So that's it's all veryinteresting what you're saying
there.
Have you ever tried mindfulnessmeditation?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I have not.
No, it's something I reallywant to get into because I've
had multiple guests, um, butit's one of those things.
I just don't know how to bridgethe gap between not doing it
and doing it.
I know I've asked the questionto some people and I think the
response usually just start withsomething, and I think that's
what I need to just do is it'sone minute, you know five
minutes or whatever, like youdon't have to do 30 minutes the
first time, or you know sit acertain way, or all these
(09:12):
different things.
So, yeah, I think this will beinteresting for me to really
learn and hopefully I can takesome things from this.
The next question I had for youyou know, based on daily things
and things you do, what's adaily habit that you have that
keeps you grounded?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Well, I'd have to just offer mindfulness practice,
right?
I mean, I sit for anywhere from30 minutes to an hour a day.
That's personally.
You know, I'm somebody who hastaken on meditation as something
that I want to teach andpromote to other people.
I want to write aboutmeditation, so I say all that to
say no one needs to spend morethan five, ten minutes a day
(09:48):
sitting in mindfulness practicein order to get some of these
benefits that I'm talking abouthere.
Obviously, there are some verydeep and meaningful spiritual
experiences that people can haveduring meditation, which is why
so many people who get themindfulness meditation bug or
whatever, will spend more andmore time doing it, to a point
where some will just give theirentire lives over to it.
Now, no one's saying you haveto do that to get some of these
(10:10):
simple benefits of just noticingthe difference between your
anxiety taking control of yourafternoon versus just noticing
the arising anxiety in the mindand being able to put it down
and spend time with your familyplaying a game.
These are the benefits most ofus would like to have, and we
don't need to sacrifice hoursand a sore back and, like a, you
(10:31):
know, three month retreats inorder to get these benefits.
You know, five to ten minuteson a daily-ish behavior can
really have astounding benefitsfor us, and so many of us spend
so much more time preparingdiets and meals and exercising
and trying to maintain ourphysical health.
It takes so much more effort tomaintain your physical health.
Getting the Western world tojust sit down and practice
(10:53):
mindfulness for 10 minutes a daywould really be a huge benefit
to everyone in society.
I really believe so.
It's just hard, for whateverreason, to get us Americans to
realize that we can't controleverything in our lives.
You know, and that's whymindfulness and meditation
doesn't speak well to us asAmericans, I think, is because
in our culture you either pickyourself up by your bootstraps
(11:15):
and produce the all-Americanmade individual, or you're lazy
and didn't do it, or you're notgood enough, or you're not
strong enough.
And it's because of this overallcultural attitude that I think
makes mindfulness and meditationjust not something we really
take on board.
But you know, it is somethingthat I think is beginning to
turn the tide.
There's more and more researchcoming out about the benefits of
(11:37):
mindfulness and meditation andit's just getting harder to
ignore.
It's becoming just asoverwhelming as doing 20 minutes
of cardio three times a weekfor cardiovascular health.
That's almost tattooed on allof our brains now since we were
kids.
Right, mindfulness meditationis probably another two or three
decades behind before it wouldreally be a very common practice
, I think, for most people.
So we were just kind of gettingto this point now, to where
(11:59):
individuals like me who havebeen practicing are now being
empowered with more research andeducation to be able to go and
promote mindfulness meditationin different disciplines to
start to get a little bit moretraction in the practice.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean it's really awesome.
I think, you know, being on theedge and has an increase is
really good stuff.
I think the thing I would add orI maybe just, you know,
reiterate what you said it hasthis weird thing in American or
Western culture that it's coolto be busy, overburdened,
stressed out, like it almostseems like if you slow down what
(12:31):
you said, it's almost anegative.
You're lazy, you're slow, and sohopefully you know, through
these conversations like that'swhy I love having the show I
hope some of these stories youknow resonate with somebody and
then they start, you know,changing some of the things
based on what they hear, becauseyou know this is good and
helpful stuff for people, butfor the longest time it's just
ingrained to be faster andfaster.
(12:53):
I mean, we're just so inundatedwith all these things.
We have fast food where you canget food in a second, you can
Google an answer for anything inthe world in a matter of
seconds and something thatresides in your pocket, all
thing in the world in a matterof seconds and something that
resides in your pocket.
Of all these things it's likebetter, faster, stronger, now,
now, and so I think there's alot of goodness from the slowing
down right I think it's.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I think it's getting to a point in western society
where it's just like, okay, Iobviously have more resources
than probably mygreat-grandparents did.
I obviously have more, a nicervehicle and a nicer house, and I
, I got this cell phone, but I'mstill not happy.
Now, why is that, if all thesepromises are coming true and now
all I'm worried about is adigital number on my bank
(13:34):
account?
You know, I don't even touchmoney anymore.
I mean, when was the last timewe you know what I mean Like,
why are we all so unhappy?
And we're just, we're all likethe Solomon story of the Bible
and we're all like the Solomonstory of the Bible where we all
have so many resources?
I mean, just a thousand yearsago, people didn't have clean
running water, right?
I mean, if you would have givenpeople a thousand years ago
(13:54):
clean running water, they wouldhave thought their problems were
solved.
Like everything is solved forhuman history now, right, but
we're still not happy.
And that's because our brainhas two primary jobs it's to
keep you safe and to keep youinherently dissatisfied with
your experience.
And in some moods, this is whatwe call motivation.
I'm motivated to change my lifebecause I want these things is
(14:26):
what keeps us so all unhappywith our experience, because we
can't find that satisfaction.
When is going to be the momentwhere you have the spouse of
your dreams and you have thecareer and the money of your
dreams and you're at thatvacation that you've always
wanted to take?
And here you are, you'restanding on top of the peak.
What is the difference betweenthat moment and this
conversation we're having righthere?
Why wait for the world toarrange itself in a way where I
(14:47):
can be happy?
I can be happy now if I chooseto just recognize how inherently
pleasurable it is to be in thismoment.
And that just takes a littlebit of training and time.
But mindfulness meditation canslowly get us to a point where
we can detect the way our mindpulls this rug over our eyes,
every single moment ofexperience, to then achieve the
next thing that'll satisfy thatitch or that thirst or that the
(15:10):
temperature in the room isn't sogood.
You know we're always ethicallyjudging our experience in a
very strange way.
You know how can a cup ofcoffee be good or bad on some
level?
You know, honestly, it's just acup of coffee and you're the
one that applies an ethicaljudgment to this thing, and
mindfulness meditation can helpyou detect that in your life.
Does any of that make sense, amI?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, yeah, that completely makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, you choose howyou react.
I think that's come up in a lotof different conversations I've
had is like you're the one thatmakes the choice.
Like back to the coffee thecoffee is just what it is.
You're the one that makes thechoice on if it's good or not.
Well, I wanted to ask you, josh, do you have a question for me
before we jump into your threemain pillars?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
in the human mind?
I mean, what brought you toyour interest in kind of
discovering how you canunderstand this thing that we're
all dealing with more and more,because it seems like you've
had various people that areinterested in awareness and
consciousness and the human mind.
So what is it that brought youto this domain?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I honestly don't know .
I've just always been reallyinterested.
I went through my bachelor'sdegree and I kind of checked the
box just because I needed toget a degree to do what I was
doing.
So I got one in contractmanagement, but it wasn't really
all that exciting.
It just happened to be where Iwas residing at the time at work
.
But when I went back for mymaster's I was really excited.
I got one in industrial andorganizational psychology.
(16:28):
I've always just been sointerested on how we interact.
You know, I kind of would haveliked to have gone down like the
criminal psychology one, but Ididn't want to get too much into
like criminal justice and stufflike that.
And so since I'm in aleadership role at work, I
figured that would help like inthe leadership standpoint.
But yeah, I've always just beenreally interested in like how
we interact and I think it'sjust because I love people I
(16:49):
mean it's cheesy and as clicheas it is, I want everyone to be
happy and get along and you knowall those things so being able
to understand like how we cometogether and, uh, you know how
that all comes together.
So yeah, I think that's prettymuch.
It Just always been reallyfascinated and just want to help
people.
I would love for you knowpeople to write and say, hey,
that story that Josh told orsomething that you said helped
(17:10):
me along the way.
You know all the time andeffort we put into the shows and
the editing and all thosethings Like it's all worth it if
you know help somebody alongthe way.
So I'm just a big walking clichebut I love, love helping people
and always been just superfascinated by the brain.
I think it goes back to, youknow, not talking about it as
much Like it almost has like alure mystery to it that I don't
(17:31):
know finds really interesting.
I've always been reading, youknow the crime novels and things
.
Growing up I was reading AlexCross like way younger than I
should have.
I was watching the show that'snow on Amazon Prime.
I don't think I should havebeen reading these books as a
kid because some of that stuffis pretty graphic.
But him being a cop and apsychologist was awesome.
I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
You know, to touch on your point about some of the
strangeness of why we don'trelate to the mind very well,
it's just because, you know Ithought about this earlier when
you mentioned the same thingit's like if somebody's running
a marathon and they begin tohave a chest pain, you know, we
can easily detect a heart attack, right.
It's like we can point to itand say that's your problem.
But the mind operates on threeor four different types of cells
(18:15):
and is organized in a verycomplex patterning and they
communicate with only six toeight neurochemicals.
And so the way we, you know, wecan surgically remove, right,
and we can surgically interveneareas in just the heart or just
the kidneys or just the bones,you know.
But to be able to go into themind and understand how this
(18:37):
network and wiring and on veryfew differentiating factors,
right, we just have regionsreally, and the more we study
those regions, the more weunderstand that those regions
are all encompassing of otherregions as well, you know.
So it's like to be able to getinto the mind and be able to
actively affect change andunderstand how it operates is
just much more slow going thanit was dissecting the human body
(19:00):
and saying okay, that pumpsblood, that filters blood, and
we could discover that reallyquickly.
Our brain science is just farbehind our physical science, and
so we're kind of in that placein human history where they were
just beginning to open up thebody and discovering what all
this did.
Scientists are just navigatingthe point where they can start
(19:21):
to turn the wheels of the mindand understand it on a more
complex level.
So I think that kind of gets towhy we're still so far behind
in our mental health, but we'reso far advanced in our physical
health.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
I do love kind of the unknown,and so I guess that lines up
that makes sense.
I'd love kind of the unknown,and so I guess that lines up
that makes sense.
I love to learn a little bitmore.
Your first pillar ismindfulness meditation.
So if you were passing someoneon the street or jumping in an
elevator or something, how wouldyou describe mindful meditation
to someone in the three minuteelevator speed?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Absolutely so.
Mindfulness meditation isbasically kind of a phrase.
Right, there is mindfulness andthen there's meditation.
Okay, mindfulness is just askill.
It's just that the bestdefinition of mindfulness I've
ever heard is by a man named ZenKabat, and his mindfulness is
the ability to be aware of yourmoment-to-moment experience
(20:13):
without judging.
That's it.
Just being aware of yourmoment-to-moment experience
prior to judging it.
That is what the mindfulnessskill is.
That's it Just being aware ofyour moments of experience prior
to judging it.
That is what the mindfulnessskill is.
It's like I was saying earlierwe always ethically judge our
experience.
Do I want more of thisexperience or less of this
experience?
Do I want to have more coffee?
Do I want to have more sex ordo I want to have less
frustration and less pain?
(20:33):
Right, like we're always tryingto pick what we want in our
lives and what we don't want inour lives.
But there's a in mindfulnesspractice you can just be with
your experience without graspingto it and without and when you
can pull that skill into yourreal life.
That is the benefit ofmindfulness practice.
Now, meditation is more or lesslike the gym it's where you go
(20:54):
to practice your mindfulness.
Does that make sense, we all goto the gym to exercise, but the
real benefits are taking thephysical benefits of exercise
into our real lives so that wecan, you know, get off the couch
easier.
We're not developing diseasesand cardiovascular issues, right
?
This is what physical exercisedoes for us.
Well, with mindfulness practice, we're kind of doing the same
(21:17):
thing where meditation is wherewe go to just practice our skill
of mindfulness, and thenpulling mindfulness into our
everyday lives is the trick.
I mean, you can practicemeditation for three hours a day
and still be an app toeverybody, right, there's no
problem there.
But being able to take theseskills into your actual life is
what we're trying to do with ourmindfulness skill.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So that would be my take, that is.
That's a perfect rundown, Ithink.
If you don't understand itafter that, I don't know.
That's about as good as you canget.
I wanted to touch on somethingthat we talked about earlier,
and I think this is a core thing.
Many people, including myself,struggle with slowing down right
.
What advice do you have to givesomeone starting out this
mindfulness journey?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Just that you know you're going to sit down from
the moment you can rememberbeing aware, right?
You're always telling yourselfa story of something you need to
do or something that isrequired of you to be doing, and
you're always telling yourselfthis story, right?
And we fail to recognize justhow little of our lives we
actually control.
(22:16):
Okay, I mean, the averageperson in America now probably
relies on over a thousand peoplea day just to have a normal day
.
You know, we all rely on thewater guy to make sure that the
pH levels and the bacteria aregood, we all rely on the
construction worker to make sureour roads are working and we
all rely on our teachers to makesure our kids are safe and
(22:36):
educated while we're hard atwork.
And then we're just part ofthis huge network of distributed
responsibility for our lives.
But we tell ourselves thisstory that we're either the
victim of oppression within ourcommunity and we have to
overcome it, or we're the heroover that oppression and we are
the ones that are responsiblefor our own success.
But we failed to recognize thatyou didn't choose your parents
(22:58):
and you didn't choose thecountry or the time that you
were born.
You didn't choose the talentsthat you were given and you
didn't choose the mistakes orthe pitfalls of the life that
you were given right.
And we're all just adapting andwe're all just changing and
we're all just responding to ourexperience and you can either
let the billboard balls of lifekind of ding you around mentally
(23:21):
or you can kind of take thereins of your own picture of
your reality by sitting downobserving how your mind is
painting it and in time you canbegin to use your attention in
the direction that you want to,because you've trained your
attention.
You know, we all know what it'slike these days.
You know, on a societal level,we're all training our attention
about 10 seconds at a timethrough video reels.
(23:41):
You know I don't know ifanybody's noticed that the
biggest societal issue we havethese days is an impoverishment
of our attention.
I mean, if we're honest aboutthe screen time notifications on
Saturday or our phones, youknow.
If you're honest about that orday, or our phones, you know if
you're honest about that, you'respending four hours a day on
your phone.
Where is your attention beingpaid?
You are the product now andnone of us are realizing that
(24:04):
the price we're paying, but it'son view for all of us.
Everybody's outraged byeverything, everyone.
There's no community out thereanymore.
Everyone feels isolated andalone.
Everybody just numbs themselveswith visual outputs from their
phone, and this is all becausewe're just nobody's training
their attention anymore.
Nobody is diligently focusingand it's been stolen from us.
(24:25):
It's been stolen from usbecause we are not training it
anymore and it's just gettingharder and harder for us to all
have a common, shared storyabout what's going on in our
world, who we are as people,where we're going, and I think a
lot of this just needs to kindof be recognized in our society
if we're going to come backtogether and push human
civilization forward or destroyourselves in the meantime.
(24:47):
So that's something I would sayto that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, it's wild that we're more connected with you
know electrons and thingsthrough the internet than ever
before, but I don't know if wefeel more connected than we do
than ever before.
I feel like there's a lot ofisolation and a lot of problems.
So I'm curious, like someone islistening.
That sounds great.
I'd love to start.
You know where it's Thursdayright now.
(25:10):
We're rolling into Friday.
Like, hey, I'm going to startMonday.
Like what is the very first day?
What's the shift from not doingthis to the first day?
What does that look like as youtransition?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So you know it's not going to be a whole lot
different than any time you'veever done anything uncomfortable
.
You know the oddest thing aboutmindfulness meditation is just
starting.
Okay, when you're waiting at adoctor's office, how long do you
wait before you grab your phoneor grab a magazine to distract
yourself?
You know not very long, not verylong.
Somebody, sam Harris.
(25:41):
He's a philosopher and he has amindfulness app as well.
Something he said once thatreally stuck with me was you
know, in prisons, when somebodymisbehaves in prison, what do we
do with this person?
We put them in isolation, right, and this is considered like
the worst possible form ofpunishment for this individual,
so much so that we have verydeep regulations on how long you
can keep somebody in isolation,right.
(26:03):
But if you were to put aBuddhist monk in this same room,
he'd be fine for days.
And now, what is the differencebetween these two men?
One person has learned tomaster their mind.
That is it.
That's the end of story.
So when you're at that doctor'soffice or you're waiting in line
and we're constantly seekingsomething to, it's because you
don't want to be alone with yourown mind.
Going up there and being aloneis boring.
(26:24):
It's like being you know, it'slike being stolen by the world's
most boring individual and toldthe same story over and over
and over again.
And you know distressingyourself over your own failures
and embarrassing moments fromwhen you were six years old and
you did something stupid that noone else noticed that you did,
but you know you'll be sittingthere and you'll remember this
memory from when you were likeeight and you did something
embarrassing and like Sally sawyou and the last time you saw
(26:47):
Sally was in seventh grade Like,why are you even worried about
what she saw?
She hasn't thought about itsince that day, right, but here
you are, like face palmingbecause of something you did
when you were six.
It's ridiculous.
In there and sitting there inmindfulness is just having the
courage to get up there and say,okay, I'm going to untangle all
of the ways in which my mindhas tried to tell itself and its
(27:10):
own story of its existence andI'm just going to get in there
and kind of see what, what,observe it.
If you want to understand yourown mind, you just have to sit
down and observe it.
So that's a very round way ofanswering your question, but the
first step would just be thatto just sit down.
It helps to have a goodmindfulness instructor.
It helps to have some guidedmeditations at the very first at
least, to get underground ofwhat you're trying to do.
(27:32):
You know, at FoundationFortified I start from first
principles for first respondersAnybody can go to Foundation
Fortified and pick upmindfulness.
You know, if you aren't a firstresponder and you want to
understand mindfulness, you cango to my free side there and you
can just start.
You'll hear a lot of firstresponder themes.
You know you hear a lot ofthings, that first responder
language.
So in mindfulness they'll saysomething like, you know, bring
(27:52):
your awareness to the breath.
You'll hear me a fire cat intalking to police officers, say
something like bring yoursituational awareness to the
breath, because a firstresponder is taught very early
on to have something calledsituational awareness and that's
something we say to each otherwhen one of us gets a feeling
that something's not right orhigh alert here or hey, we're in
(28:13):
a dangerous environment.
Situational awareness, guys, weall know what that means.
So to be able to sit down inyour meditation practice and
have an instructor who'sfamiliar enough with your own
mind to say bring your situationthis is immediately, you know,
relatable for first responders.
So you'll get some languagelike that under my program.
But you know, just finding agood meditation instructor who
(28:33):
can start at first principlesand walk you through kind of a
basic, you know platform of whatyou're trying to cultivate at
first is a good place to start,but it really is just like that.
It's like having the courage tostart.
You know, some of the people inthe gym that really bring me
full of inspiration are theindividuals who are clearly
overweight, clearly lost in thegym and clearly just trying to
(28:54):
get through this workout.
And those are the individualsthat are most inspiring, because
you know they're confused, youknow they can be seen and they
just want to make that change.
That's what it feels like to gointo a meditation hall the
first time and not know where tosit and not know how to act,
and just want you know what Imean.
You just have to start, likeanything else, but you really
have to have the courage tostart with yourself.
(29:15):
It's that Michael Jackson song.
Everybody says they do work onthemselves.
Everybody says you know, oh,I'm working on myself, I'm
working on myself, but we're not.
You can't possibly work withyourself if you aren't starting
with the very tool that createswho you are, that creates the
reality in which you live in,that tells itself a story of why
you are and who you are.
(29:35):
You can't possibly work onyourself until you know yourself
.
Mindfulness practice is reallythe best place to go to start
that, and the type ofdisciplines and the type of all
of the religious.
You know, one of the things Itell first, if you don't mind,
one of the things I tell firstresponders all the time is you
know, imagine if the nunnery,the Catholic nunnery, discovered
bodybuilding.
(29:55):
You know, back in like the 1700s, right, like they just started
picking up rocks and buildingsynagogues, and you know finding
huge muscles.
You know they might literallyattribute all of those gains to
sacrificing labor to the Lord.
And you know, discoveringchants and making songs about
body.
We might still avoidweightlifting, like it might be
so covered in strangeness that,like Western society never
(30:18):
picked it up.
And this is where we findmindfulness practice these days.
It was discovered in the East,captured by religion and
completely dogmatized for wellover 4,000 years.
And we're just in this placeright now where some Western
scientists have gone back East,brought to university, studied
the practice, divorced it of anyof the dogmatism that isn't
(30:38):
needed and captured what'svaluable about the practice.
And now we're starting to bringit into a place where it's now
more taught as a mental healthand a positive way of living
your life rather than areligious practice.
Now it's starting to gaintraction as like a daily
practicable habit like physicalexercise.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
That's good stuff.
It sounds like it can reallybenefit anyone, doesn't matter
first responder or not.
It sounds like you got a lot ofgood stuff.
I wanted to ask you are a firstresponder and so you got those
high stress situations.
I was curious is there aspecific mindfulness technique
that's been especially helpfulfor you in those high stress
situations?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
that's been especially helpful for you in
those high stress situations.
You know that's a really goodquestion, but there's, I would
have to say I'm going to go withself-compassion.
I'm going to go withself-compassion and I say that
it feels like chewing on foil.
You know what I mean.
Like I know what that soundslike to most people when they
say that you knowself-compassion, mindfulness,
loving, kindness, practice Likethat's a mouthful right and I
(31:39):
totally am.
You know, I was born and raisedin Chandler, arizona, and I
became a firefighter and aRepublican father and was.
You know what I mean?
And I discovered mindfulness,meditation.
And now I'm here talking aboutself-compassion and the reason
for that is because someone onceheard someone say you should
(32:01):
never leave the house withoutyour best friend.
But you happen to be the onethey mean when they say that.
You know we all live with thisperson who's the meanest
individual to us all the timeI'll go to Starbucks and I'll
order a vinty coffee and I'llbeat myself up the rest of the
day for not saying venti.
I'll be humiliated, I'll callmyself an idiot and I'll just
destroy myself over this littlething.
(32:22):
But if your buddy did that,you'd be like vinti you give him
a laugh and then it'd be theend of it right.
And if you happen to see yourfriend was bothered by something
, you would have compassion foryour friend.
You know you broke it over.
But to ourselves, we demoralizeourselves, we humiliate
ourselves, we're constantlytalking down to ourselves, we're
constantly trying to fix ourvanity because we can't look
(32:45):
good enough for other people.
So a well-developedself-compassion practice is a
place where you can go tounderstand that you aren't
perfect and nobody's perfect.
And all of your insecuritiesmight be flavored slightly
different than other people'sinsecurities, but their
insecurities are there as well.
Whether or not you're insecurityabout you know you're tall and
skinny, or you're short and fat,or you're insecure about the
(33:08):
fact that you aren't asbeautiful as you wish you were,
or you aren't as.
Whatever your insecurity, weall have them and it's just
working through the component ofthe minds and security where
mindfulness practice isbeneficial.
Security is just insecurity.
The flavoring of it doesn'tmatter.
Within the mind, we all havethem.
And when you begin tounderstand that about yourself,
you do start to apply it toother people.
(33:29):
And now all of a sudden you'rejust a kinder, nicer person to
be around.
You might hold that door open.
You might notice somebody needshelp with something and you'll
just go over and help thembecause you've needed help too.
It's really odd how a goodself-compassion practice will
start to help.
You just see others.
We all just live our lives inour phones and we're all always
surrounded by people.
We don't see people anymore.
(33:51):
Firefighters and firstresponders still see people.
We're responsible forresponding to these people at
their worst days, so we stillsee people.
We see people so well that wepunish ourselves and we can't
help people.
You know, and a goodself-compassion practice will
just help you see people, seeyourself.
So I would.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I would definitely say that is probably the the
best form of my practice andit's funny too, because it's
like things that we know we justdon't do.
Like we say, put yourself insomeone else's shoes, walk a
mile, and someone should likeall these different phrases and
whatnot.
But it's like things that weknow we just don't do.
Like we say, put yourself insomeone else's shoes, walk a
mile in someone's shoes, likeall these different phrases and
whatnot.
But it's like one thing to sayit and whatnot, but to actually
do it like, actually think aboutthat connect and empathy.
You know, I think a lot oftimes we get caught up in
(34:29):
sympathy like oh, poor you.
But really like thinking whenwas a time you were low or you
know, at that spot that otherperson was.
That's that real connection andthat empathy versus the
sympathy.
Well, Josh, the next pillar youhave is first responders and
mental wellness.
Someone to ask what uniquechallenges do first responders
specifically face in mentalhealth and resilience?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Real, quick as a sidebar, we're going to have to
edit this out.
I'm sorry.
My garage door broke last night, and so my garage door guy is
going to be here soon and Imight have to go open.
Show him real quick.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, you're good, so ask me your question again.
I'm sorry, he just.
He just texted me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Oh, you're all good.
What unique challenges do firstresponders face when it comes
to mental health and resilience?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
no-transcript have discovered this new form of
suffering that humans haven'tever had to contend with before.
You know a normal human affair.
You know mindfulness practicewill show you how suffering
works within the mind and withinthe course of human life.
Now something awful happenswithin your life.
You lose somebody that'sirreplaceable to you in your
life and you're immediately puton this course of grief, right,
(35:50):
and we all know the five stagesof grief and how that model has
been changed over the years andall that.
And there's still a model thereand we all know what that is.
And then you have community.
Whether you have largecommunity support or only a
couple close ones come to you atyour aid and you begin to clean
out, eventually, the deceased'sthings and you go through this
entire process that is, althoughpainful, is very, very human,
(36:14):
and it's why losing somebodythat we care about is such an
awful but important part of ourlives.
Right Now, first responderswatch the suffering of a
community from a third-partynarrative.
Right, we never get to knowwhether or not Sally found a
foster family after her parentswere lost on this car accident.
You know, we just get to wonderwhatever happened to Sally, and
(36:37):
then where that car accident is, is forever Sally to us,
because we can't ever know whathappened to Sally.
So instead we just remember howSally's life changed forever
that day, and then we alwayswonder, and after we do this for
a certain amount of time, ourcommunity becomes a distributed
map of harm and suffering thatwe never get to really cope or
(36:58):
finish any of these stories, andso that is a very strange place
for the human mind to try todwell in and then continue to
respond and live in thatcommunity.
So I would say that's one veryintimate way in which first
responders have just kind of dueto the nature of our work,
discovered this new way to turna human mind into a knot.
And in order to protect yourphysical health, exercise here's
(37:19):
how to diet.
We're going to do that an houra day.
Here's how to exercise we'regoing to do that an hour a day.
I think the key that we'remissing is hey, we're going to
(37:40):
protect that mind of yours.
Here's how to be mindful 10minutes a day, and you're going
to do it throughout your academy.
We're have certain physicalrequirements that we have to
meet, but by and large, you canbe as healthy or unhealthy as
you want within a certain youknow frame, and that can be true
for your mental health as well.
(38:01):
But we should be training theskills to our recruits.
We should be giving this as askill, not because we can't give
you a therapist when you're not, we're not going to give you a
doctor when you're unhealthy,but we're going to give you a
skill that we can demonstrablyprove now in the lab,
scientifically.
That is a skill that canprevent these mental health
diseases that we know you are ata higher risk for that.
(38:23):
We know so many of our firstresponders are struggling with
the likelihood that you're goingto have PTSD or anxiety or
develop a negative copingmechanism or substance abuses
are much higher than the averagepopulation.
We're going to give you a skillto help us with that.
Mindfulness is the key andthat's why I'm trying to build,
I'm trying to change the culture.
If I want to go talk to firechiefs and police chiefs, I want
(38:44):
to change the culture of firstresponse, to deploy this skill
into our recruits so that we canprevent these issues going
forward.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
That's some powerful stuff, Josh.
Thank you for your service andall the other first responders.
Man, I can't imagine my mind.
I feel like it's too activealready, so I'd be really
wondering what's going on.
And just having to have thememory of that location being
negative, that's really rough.
The next question I had for youare there any misconceptions
(39:12):
about mental wellness in highstakes professions that you'd
like to address?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of them.
A lot of people think,unfortunately, that mental
fortitude is the key.
My business is calledFoundation Fortified because
your mind is your foundation andyou should practice to fortify
it.
But a lot of our veterans justbelieve you need to buck up
buckaroo and you need to stuffthat down.
(39:37):
You know, these days, those ofus that are talking about mental
health, we're creating theproblem.
We didn't have these problems.
Why do you younger men start tohave these problems right?
Meanwhile they'll grab theiralcohol and they'll, you know,
struggle with their divorces andthey'll, you know, struggle
with what we've allunfortunately begun to see our
leadership struggle with infirst response, and it's not
(39:57):
getting any better.
It's not getting easier to be apolice officer if we haven't
noticed.
It's not getting easier to be afirefighter if we haven't
noticed.
You know it's not gettingeasier to be an ambulance
paramedic.
You know it's not gettingeasier to be a dispatcher.
These are all forms of the jobthat are only getting harder as
societies scale.
More population increases,there's more ways in which
humans are finding.
You know ways to hurt or killourselves as we interact with
(40:20):
chemicals and cars at highspeeds, and you know more and
more mental health issues areleading to more and more
societal chaos, with schoolshootings and things like that.
It's not getting easier to be afirst responder, and so we've
got to be doing something tohelp first responders cope
mentally, and I believe thesimple skill of mindfulness is
one of these things that we candeploy in our industry.
(40:41):
It isn't going to solve all ofour problems, but if it can
reduce our overhead of mentalhealth issue by 50%, I mean if
we had a magic pill that wecould just give first responders
the day they were hired, justsay here, take, this has very
low side effects, right, youmight notice a little bit of
headache, might be sweating, butafter that you'll be fine and
(41:02):
it's going to avoid mentalhealth We'd give it to her.
It'd be illegal for us not togive it to them, right, and this
is just a skill that we shouldbe giving to our recruits.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
So it's just wild.
For the longest time you weresupposed to be strong and not
have any feelings and bottle andall these things.
I'm so glad you know I have theshow and there's other shows
and we're trying to have theseconversations and I hope with
every conversation you know,people feel more comfortable on
getting the help and sitting andmeditating and you know, fill
in the blank like take care ofyourself, take care of your mind
(41:37):
.
These are super importantthings.
The last pillar you have isgiving back and making an impact
.
What role does service play inyour life and why is it
important to you?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
You know be useful has always just kind of been
like a simple phrase for me.
You know, just be useful.
You know, my dad and I startedbusiness when I was a kid and I
started working with him when Iwas probably nine.
You know, and my dad's only.
That's going to be my garageguy.
Can I take a quick five minutes?
Yep, you're good.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Oh, I'm so sorry.
You're good.
Oh, it just starts again.
Okay, josh, can you share amoment when giving back made a
lasting impact to me?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
My father and I started a carpet cleaning and
tile cleaning business back whenI was a kid.
I think I mentioned a littlebit of that earlier.
Part of a component of thatbusiness was flood restoration.
I attribute flood restorationfor some of what brought me into
the fire service as well.
People's homes were destroyedthrough water and we went in
(42:29):
there to try to fix it right.
No different than a fire a fireattacked your home today, right
?
Um well, I was on this flood joband these individuals had just
come, moved to arizona verycommon back when I was a kid.
Everybody moves to phoenix,arizona um well, the dishwasher
guy had come out and not hookedup the water correctly and they
went for a walk and in 15minutes their house was three
(42:51):
inches underwater.
And so we, we go to this floodjob and I'm in the closet
sucking out water with ourmachine, right, and I see this
box that says photos and therehad been water that was wicked
up halfway up this box, right,and I just remember grabbing the
box and just, you know I'm like12, you know I'm just doing
everything I can to get this.
(43:11):
But it's tearing here and it'stearing there and my dad sees
what I'm doing and my dad's likewhat are you doing, oh my God.
And at this point he was forcedto help me get the pictures out
of the area because I had madesuch a mess.
But by the time we got the boxwhere it was safe, we had saved
so much of the box after we hadtaken it all out and the family
was just looking at old photosby the time we were leaving the
(43:32):
job three hours later and theywere laughing at some of these
memories and I just rememberthinking if I would have not
done it, water would have justcontinued to destroy that box
and my dad was even not like atfirst seeing the importance and
I thought I'd made a mistake,even right.
And then I just remember theworst day of their lives was now
, you know, a memory for thisfamily on looking over some old
(43:53):
photos.
So that was probably the firsttime that was probably the first
time.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
That's a good one.
I'm going to make that asnippet for sure that one's
going on TikTok.
What's one way someone canstart making a difference in
their community today?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
You know, as silly as it sounds, just being a better
being, a more diligent operatorof your own attention, you know
being taking the reins of yourown attention and better using
it, using the most valuablething you have in your life to
better use.
You know so much of us spend somuch time wasting.
You know, I can't I think itwas the UK.
The UK came out with this termthat I can't get out of my mind.
(44:26):
It's called brain rot and youknow it was the term of the year
for them.
Right, brain rot.
And it's just these video reelsthat we spend because, you know
, something goofy happened at arestaurant.
This person captured it on thecamera and we'll watch it for
three minutes to see how thisperson was eventually ex, you
know, excused out of themcdonald's like, and that's how
(44:47):
we spent three minutes.
And then let's go to the nextone and the next one, and it's
just this brain rot.
And and we wonder why, you know, but everybody, everybody also
simultaneously believes thatthey can be their own doctor and
that they can be their ownfinancial advisor.
And you can be your own, youknow, health expert as well, but
you're spending your day, fourhours, engulfed in tiktok, I
(45:09):
promise you, the doctor, despitehis mistakes, spent hours
studying diagnoses and healthproblems, and the water guy at
the water facility went tocollege to understand.
We all have to trust others atsome point and, at the end of
the day, until you're using yourattention in a more useful way
(45:29):
not only for your happiness inyour life, but for the citizens
around you you aren't part ofwhat's going on.
You're more of a parasite thanyou are a contributor.
We all are contributors throughour job.
Like I said, I have to rely onthe construction worker.
I have to rely on the cop andthe firefighter to show up.
I have to rely.
But what else are you doing inyour life to contribute?
(45:52):
Who are you going to be?
Are you going to have thatfuneral where your family and
friends show up and talk abouthow important you were, or are
you going to be the person thatfills a football stadium full of
people demonstrating howimportant you were?
There's something you got to bedoing in your society that's
bigger than you are.
If you want to know why you'reunhappy, it's because you're
spending your life trying togratify your own impulses.
(46:13):
The real satisfaction.
People wonder why kids are sovaluable to us.
Kids are the most selfish wayof getting that feeling of a
bigger impact in this world.
It's so easy being a father oftwo boys.
They fill me with so muchimportance in my life.
Right, I got to buy them shoesand I got to cook them lunch and
I got to clean them.
I'm so important.
(46:34):
If I wasn't around they'd bedead, but that's like the
easiest way to get that.
But leaving them on theirbirthday to go and respond to a
community and to not be there onChristmas.
You know that's what I'm doingand that's what first responders
are doing in our society.
They aren't there becausethey're protecting you on your
birthday.
They're ensuring that thetraffic is flowing and they're
(46:56):
ensuring that the burglariesaren't happening and they're
ensuring that the hazardouschemicals are staying in the
containers they need to stay inso that your house, two and a
half miles away, isn't being offgas while you're cooking your
burgers at night.
You know this is what firstresponders are up to in the
world in the background, and wenotice when they make mistakes
and we notice when theyinconvenience our days, but we
don't notice all the ways inwhich first responders clean up
(47:19):
the dead without us ever knowingthey clean up our streets.
They do so much in thebackground for us so that we can
just live our lives, and so, ifyou want to be a contributor,
being a first responder is agreat way another selfish way, I
would say because at leastyou're getting paid, you're
providing.
That's another.
You know what are you doing insociety.
(47:39):
That's bigger than you.
That's the biggest way to notonly find more happiness in your
life, but to actually be partof a community once again.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do the best that you can atyour job and you know it fits
into the larger picture.
That's good stuff, josh.
I want to bring it all together.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to someone who wants to
live a more mindful andservice-driven life, what would
be your final takeaway?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I would just submit that most people that are
listening to this conversation,most people, are living a life
that is more or less dedicatedto one single task and that's
gratifying your next impulse andavoiding the next thing that
makes you feel uncomfortable.
That is the way you're probablyspending most of your life.
Mindfulness is a way where youcan kind of stop living that
(48:25):
constant moment to moment.
What do I want, what do I don'twant?
And it's a way to be able tosay there's got to be something
else here.
There's got to be something inthis moment to be glad for.
Now I might reach for somethingthat I enjoy, like my wife's
hand when we're watching a movie, but if I never touch my wife's
hand again, that is going to belike the worst day of my life
(48:45):
if something ever happens to mywife.
But there's still a moment inthis moment to find happiness.
There's still something worthhaving here.
You can live a life whereyou're dedicated to just
constantly getting what you wantand avoiding what you don't, or
you can live a life that's opento whatever is given to you and
you find happiness within that,and then anything life gives
(49:07):
you is a moment to be happy, andthat's what I would submit
about mindfulness practice.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Just an added bonus.
Everything else will be good.
Well, that was some awesomestuff on mindful meditation.
Check out the website.
I'll try to get it in the linkswhen it's posted, but, josh,
thank you for coming out.
I'd like to ask everyone outthere for your feedback.
The feedback makes this podcasteven better.
Drop your thoughts or questionson Instagram, facebook, TikTok,
youtube, buzzsprout all thosefun social media platforms that
(49:32):
we're on and thank you for beinga part of the Mindforce journey
.
I love you all.
See ya, thank you.
Hi everyone, I'm Nate Shearer and this is Mindforce.
Join me as we explore love,life and learning, because your
mind is what matters here.
Today we have Josh Grandinettiand today we'll be talking about
mindfulness, meditation, firstresponders and giving back.
So, Josh, we'll start with theeasy stuff the background, the
who, who are you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What makes you you?
Yeah, so you know, born andraised in Arizona, married 14
years and I have two boys.
I've been a firefighter forabout 15 years and I've been
serving as a captain about fiveyears at that time and I've also
been a certified paramedic for12 years of my firefighting
career.
So I've been up to this careerfor quite some time and, you
know, midway through my firecareer I kind of started to
(01:04):
develop some anxiety, you know,and some PTS, you know
post-traumatic stress, before itbecame a disorder, you know,
and you always hear about copingmechanisms first responders can
go and discover before wediscover the negative coping
mechanisms that come with ourjobs, right?
Well, one of those that wasalways teased out there was
meditation, mindfulness, but noone.
Where do you go?
(01:24):
Where do you go to find this,you know?
And so I kind of waded througha lot of religious dogmatism and
strange practices and differenttypes of you know environments
before I could really get somebenefits of mindfulness under me
and I began to feel that.
So I began writing a curriculumfor first responders about six
years ago and that kind of youknow collected dirt on my shelf
(01:46):
for about six years until arecent on-duty knee injury gave
me the time and space to becomea mindfulness instructor and
begin producing a platform forfirst responders.
They can go to DiscoverMeditation for free, all taught,
so that they have a place to go, if it's ever you know
something they want to come andfind to help cope with something
small.
(02:06):
You know, mindfulness is kindof a preventative for us and
first responders, unfortunately,are a little bit too
reactionary about mental healththese days.
You know we wait until you needa therapist or some medication
and mindfulness just offers us away to, you know, kind of take
our mental health into our ownhands, like we do our physical
health, and try to prevent someof these mental health diseases.
(02:26):
So that's what I'm up to atFoundation Fortify.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I love that and that wasone of the reasons I named the
podcast Mental Fitness.
I really love the idea andthought that goes into something
that you're always doing.
I feel like when we say mentalhealth, it's a building, it's an
appointment, it's a thing thatyou go and do and then you never
do again, or you go on yourworst day ever.
For some reason, we wait for itto be rock bottom before we
(02:50):
enter, and so I love the idea ofmental fitness and the word
being like I relate to, likecardio.
You know you're hitting thetreadmill three times a week.
You don't just go and do itonce and stop doing it.
You do it every week.
So I love your thoughts and Ilove how that aligns with the
show.
So you kind of touched on whoyou are and what you're doing.
Why are you here today?
I'm here today.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I was kind of trying to discover, like podcast hosts,
that might be interested infinding someone who's trying to
do something in the world for aspecific group of people and
just kind of promote what I'm upto and try to get the word out
there.
Everyone knows a firstresponder, everybody knows a
firefighter or a police officeror a paramedic or a dispatcher,
and everyone knows the strugglesthat person has probably had at
(03:33):
some point or another in theirlife trying to be an upstanding
citizen doing the work that wedo, and so it's just good to be
able to get out there and getthe message out Because, like I
said, I have a completely freeprogram that I just want all
first responders to have accessto, and, of course, I have a
subscriber side that's veryinexpensive, but I just want to
be able to get mindfulness outto all first responders so they
(03:53):
have somewhere that they can goto discover it, regardless of
whether or not anyone everbecomes a subscriber.
I just believe that this isvery beneficial.
It's like you were saying and ina way, we're treating our
mental health the same way weused to treat our physical
health Back before diet andexercise.
We kind of just all ran withour bodies and you were kind of
just luck of the draw.
You were given what you weregiven and then we discovered
(04:15):
some diet and exercise and howwe kind of shape our bodies to
avoid certain outcomes.
And Western medicine is stillvery kind of slow.
We're still treating mentalhealth like luck of the draw.
You're just given theexperiences you're given and
you're given the mind thatyou're given and good luck.
But the you know the East hashad something to say about that
for a long time when it comes totraining the mind through
(04:36):
mindfulness practices of variousforms, and so I'm just trying
to bring kind of Easternpractice and mindfulness,
diluted of all the dogmatism,and produce it for one of
society's most importantindustries.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, I love that it's all goodstuff because I think it's just
so odd to me.
I mentioned on the show beforeand I'm probably repeating so
hopefully people don't have tosuffer through it for too long
but it's just so weird to me.
Like the physical body, asyou're walking into the gym or
something like people will talkoh, I'm doing back and bys, I'm
doing, you know, two by 10 andI'm going to do these, and we
(05:08):
openly talk about these workouts, we have magazines for it and
all these things.
But when you get into the mentalhealth realm, it's like I can't
talk about that.
It's like why, why not?
The brain is another part ofyour body.
And you're talking about, youknow, legs.
I did leg day yesterday andit's just open and it's out
there.
But it's like, oh, I sat in thepark and, you know, had some
mindfulness for myself.
(05:29):
Like, ooh, can't do, like it'sjust really bizarre to me and
I'm glad that we're finally.
You know, transition.
I'm super glad you're here andthe last question I had for you
was where in the world are youcalling from?
You already said Arizona, so wechecked all those.
But I'm excited to get intothis because I think meditation
is super important and it's oneof those things I think often
you know commonly, you knowmisknown or things like that,
(05:50):
like oh, I got to sit thiscertain way, I have to do this
thing.
You know, kind of a hippie typething, so super excited to get
into it.
But before we do, a few warm-upquestions for you.
Josh, how did you first I thinkyou touched on it a little bit,
but how did you first getintroduced into mindfulness
meditation?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh man that's a funny question I would say, my first
introduction into meditation.
I remember being in this recordstore with my father and I keep
meaning to look up the bandname.
I think it's Rage Against theMachine.
I think I grabbed this disc Iwas looking at and I'm showing
my age here because it was a CDI'm looking at it, it and
(06:30):
there's this man sitting andhe's half engulfed in fire and
he's just sitting in ameditation pose.
And I just remember, you know,not being intimidated by the
image but not being able to lookaway from the image as well.
You know, a couple years afterthat, I discovered what that
image was.
It was a vietnamese um monkthat was protesting the war and
he self-immolated in order tosend a message.
Long and short of it.
I have no interest inself-immolating or nothing, but
(06:51):
the practice of mindfulness justreally spoke to me.
You know, like that was a veryinteresting like.
How could that be somethingsomebody finds worthwhile doing,
you know?
So I was introduced tomindfulness just through the air
, just like many of us are.
You know, we think aboutmindfulness meditation.
We see the orange suits, thebald heads, we see the
mountaintops and all thestrangeness, you know, and we
(07:12):
don't know how to relate to it.
But when I got in the firstresponse, I noticed my anxiety
was just starting to bedischarged onto my wife a little
bit unfairly, and onto mychildren a little bit unfairly.
I would start to.
I call it the responder feedbackloop of the mind.
You know, when you announce youwant to be a first responder,
regardless of the discipline Ihappen to be a firefighter,
slash paramedic, but there's,you know, police officers,
(07:34):
correctional officers,dispatchers as well, who are all
part of the network.
Well, when you announce youwant to do something like this,
you begin training your mind torespond.
By definition, you have to beable to respond to the needs of
others over an empty stomach orsomething so trivial as that, in
order to affect change forpeople, right?
So you just begin dispatchingand responding to problems and
(07:54):
responding to problems, and wecan do this fairly well for the
first couple years.
We can, you know, kind ofseparate the two worlds.
But after training your mind torespond to harm and to problems
over the course of a decade,you begin to your mind invents
problems for you to respond to.
Now.
Now you're self-dispatching tofalse emergencies within your
(08:15):
mind and within your personallife.
You start discharging all thisstress onto your family, and
this is just the consequence ofhaving a responding mind, and
mindfulness is just a placewhere we can go to not respond
to the false dispatches of ourminds.
That is the practice.
The practice is learning how toget off the ride, learning
what's real to respond to andwhat's just made up storytelling
(08:37):
in the mind.
You know this is part of whatcan help first responders with
their putting down the job andjust living a life that is
actually in front of them.
So that's it's all veryinteresting what you're saying
there.
Have you ever tried mindfulnessmeditation?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I have not.
No, it's something I reallywant to get into because I've
had multiple guests, um, butit's one of those things.
I just don't know how to bridgethe gap between not doing it
and doing it.
I know I've asked the questionto some people and I think the
response usually just start withsomething, and I think that's
what I need to just do is it'sone minute, you know five
minutes or whatever, like youdon't have to do 30 minutes the
first time, or you know sit acertain way, or all these
(09:12):
different things.
So, yeah, I think this will beinteresting for me to really
learn and hopefully I can takesome things from this.
The next question I had for youyou know, based on daily things
and things you do, what's adaily habit that you have that
keeps you grounded?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Well, I'd have to just offer mindfulness practice,
right?
I mean, I sit for anywhere from30 minutes to an hour a day.
That's personally.
You know, I'm somebody who hastaken on meditation as something
that I want to teach andpromote to other people.
I want to write aboutmeditation, so I say all that to
say no one needs to spend morethan five, ten minutes a day
(09:48):
sitting in mindfulness practicein order to get some of these
benefits that I'm talking abouthere.
Obviously, there are some verydeep and meaningful spiritual
experiences that people can haveduring meditation, which is why
so many people who get themindfulness meditation bug or
whatever, will spend more andmore time doing it, to a point
where some will just give theirentire lives over to it.
Now, no one's saying you haveto do that to get some of these
(10:10):
simple benefits of just noticingthe difference between your
anxiety taking control of yourafternoon versus just noticing
the arising anxiety in the mindand being able to put it down
and spend time with your familyplaying a game.
These are the benefits most ofus would like to have, and we
don't need to sacrifice hoursand a sore back and, like a, you
(10:31):
know, three month retreats inorder to get these benefits.
You know, five to ten minuteson a daily-ish behavior can
really have astounding benefitsfor us, and so many of us spend
so much more time preparingdiets and meals and exercising
and trying to maintain ourphysical health.
It takes so much more effort tomaintain your physical health.
Getting the Western world tojust sit down and practice
(10:53):
mindfulness for 10 minutes a daywould really be a huge benefit
to everyone in society.
I really believe so.
It's just hard, for whateverreason, to get us Americans to
realize that we can't controleverything in our lives.
You know, and that's whymindfulness and meditation
doesn't speak well to us asAmericans, I think, is because
in our culture you either pickyourself up by your bootstraps
(11:15):
and produce the all-Americanmade individual, or you're lazy
and didn't do it, or you're notgood enough, or you're not
strong enough.
And it's because of this overallcultural attitude that I think
makes mindfulness and meditationjust not something we really
take on board.
But you know, it is somethingthat I think is beginning to
turn the tide.
There's more and more researchcoming out about the benefits of
(11:37):
mindfulness and meditation andit's just getting harder to
ignore.
It's becoming just asoverwhelming as doing 20 minutes
of cardio three times a weekfor cardiovascular health.
That's almost tattooed on allof our brains now since we were
kids.
Right, mindfulness meditationis probably another two or three
decades behind before it wouldreally be a very common practice
, I think, for most people.
So we were just kind of gettingto this point now, to where
(11:59):
individuals like me who havebeen practicing are now being
empowered with more research andeducation to be able to go and
promote mindfulness meditationin different disciplines to
start to get a little bit moretraction in the practice.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean it's really awesome.
I think, you know, being on theedge and has an increase is
really good stuff.
I think the thing I would add orI maybe just, you know,
reiterate what you said it hasthis weird thing in American or
Western culture that it's coolto be busy, overburdened,
stressed out, like it almostseems like if you slow down what
(12:31):
you said, it's almost anegative.
You're lazy, you're slow, and sohopefully you know, through
these conversations like that'swhy I love having the show I
hope some of these stories youknow resonate with somebody and
then they start, you know,changing some of the things
based on what they hear, becauseyou know this is good and
helpful stuff for people, butfor the longest time it's just
ingrained to be faster andfaster.
(12:53):
I mean, we're just so inundatedwith all these things.
We have fast food where you canget food in a second, you can
Google an answer for anything inthe world in a matter of
seconds and something thatresides in your pocket, all
thing in the world in a matterof seconds and something that
resides in your pocket.
Of all these things it's likebetter, faster, stronger, now,
now, and so I think there's alot of goodness from the slowing
down right I think it's.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I think it's getting to a point in western society
where it's just like, okay, Iobviously have more resources
than probably mygreat-grandparents did.
I obviously have more, a nicervehicle and a nicer house, and I
, I got this cell phone, but I'mstill not happy.
Now, why is that, if all thesepromises are coming true and now
all I'm worried about is adigital number on my bank
(13:34):
account?
You know, I don't even touchmoney anymore.
I mean, when was the last timewe you know what I mean Like,
why are we all so unhappy?
And we're just, we're all likethe Solomon story of the Bible
and we're all like the Solomonstory of the Bible where we all
have so many resources?
I mean, just a thousand yearsago, people didn't have clean
running water, right?
I mean, if you would have givenpeople a thousand years ago
(13:54):
clean running water, they wouldhave thought their problems were
solved.
Like everything is solved forhuman history now, right, but
we're still not happy.
And that's because our brainhas two primary jobs it's to
keep you safe and to keep youinherently dissatisfied with
your experience.
And in some moods, this is whatwe call motivation.
I'm motivated to change my lifebecause I want these things is
(14:26):
what keeps us so all unhappywith our experience, because we
can't find that satisfaction.
When is going to be the momentwhere you have the spouse of
your dreams and you have thecareer and the money of your
dreams and you're at thatvacation that you've always
wanted to take?
And here you are, you'restanding on top of the peak.
What is the difference betweenthat moment and this
conversation we're having righthere?
Why wait for the world toarrange itself in a way where I
(14:47):
can be happy?
I can be happy now if I chooseto just recognize how inherently
pleasurable it is to be in thismoment.
And that just takes a littlebit of training and time.
But mindfulness meditation canslowly get us to a point where
we can detect the way our mindpulls this rug over our eyes,
every single moment ofexperience, to then achieve the
next thing that'll satisfy thatitch or that thirst or that the
(15:10):
temperature in the room isn't sogood.
You know we're always ethicallyjudging our experience in a
very strange way.
You know how can a cup ofcoffee be good or bad on some
level?
You know, honestly, it's just acup of coffee and you're the
one that applies an ethicaljudgment to this thing, and
mindfulness meditation can helpyou detect that in your life.
Does any of that make sense, amI?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, yeah, that completely makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, you choose howyou react.
I think that's come up in a lotof different conversations I've
had is like you're the one thatmakes the choice.
Like back to the coffee thecoffee is just what it is.
You're the one that makes thechoice on if it's good or not.
Well, I wanted to ask you, josh, do you have a question for me
before we jump into your threemain pillars?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
in the human mind?
I mean, what brought you toyour interest in kind of
discovering how you canunderstand this thing that we're
all dealing with more and more,because it seems like you've
had various people that areinterested in awareness and
consciousness and the human mind.
So what is it that brought youto this domain?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I honestly don't know .
I've just always been reallyinterested.
I went through my bachelor'sdegree and I kind of checked the
box just because I needed toget a degree to do what I was
doing.
So I got one in contractmanagement, but it wasn't really
all that exciting.
It just happened to be where Iwas residing at the time at work
.
But when I went back for mymaster's I was really excited.
I got one in industrial andorganizational psychology.
(16:28):
I've always just been sointerested on how we interact.
You know, I kind of would haveliked to have gone down like the
criminal psychology one, but Ididn't want to get too much into
like criminal justice and stufflike that.
And so since I'm in aleadership role at work, I
figured that would help like inthe leadership standpoint.
But yeah, I've always just beenreally interested in like how
we interact and I think it'sjust because I love people I
(16:49):
mean it's cheesy and as clicheas it is, I want everyone to be
happy and get along and you knowall those things so being able
to understand like how we cometogether and, uh, you know how
that all comes together.
So yeah, I think that's prettymuch.
It Just always been reallyfascinated and just want to help
people.
I would love for you knowpeople to write and say, hey,
that story that Josh told orsomething that you said helped
(17:10):
me along the way.
You know all the time andeffort we put into the shows and
the editing and all thosethings Like it's all worth it if
you know help somebody alongthe way.
So I'm just a big walking clichebut I love, love helping people
and always been just superfascinated by the brain.
I think it goes back to, youknow, not talking about it as
much Like it almost has like alure mystery to it that I don't
(17:31):
know finds really interesting.
I've always been reading, youknow the crime novels and things
.
Growing up I was reading AlexCross like way younger than I
should have.
I was watching the show that'snow on Amazon Prime.
I don't think I should havebeen reading these books as a
kid because some of that stuffis pretty graphic.
But him being a cop and apsychologist was awesome.
I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
You know, to touch on your point about some of the
strangeness of why we don'trelate to the mind very well,
it's just because, you know Ithought about this earlier when
you mentioned the same thingit's like if somebody's running
a marathon and they begin tohave a chest pain, you know, we
can easily detect a heart attack, right.
It's like we can point to itand say that's your problem.
But the mind operates on threeor four different types of cells
(18:15):
and is organized in a verycomplex patterning and they
communicate with only six toeight neurochemicals.
And so the way we, you know, wecan surgically remove, right,
and we can surgically interveneareas in just the heart or just
the kidneys or just the bones,you know.
But to be able to go into themind and understand how this
(18:37):
network and wiring and on veryfew differentiating factors,
right, we just have regionsreally, and the more we study
those regions, the more weunderstand that those regions
are all encompassing of otherregions as well, you know.
So it's like to be able to getinto the mind and be able to
actively affect change andunderstand how it operates is
just much more slow going thanit was dissecting the human body
(19:00):
and saying okay, that pumpsblood, that filters blood, and
we could discover that reallyquickly.
Our brain science is just farbehind our physical science, and
so we're kind of in that placein human history where they were
just beginning to open up thebody and discovering what all
this did.
Scientists are just navigatingthe point where they can start
(19:21):
to turn the wheels of the mindand understand it on a more
complex level.
So I think that kind of gets towhy we're still so far behind
in our mental health, but we'reso far advanced in our physical
health.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
I do love kind of the unknown,and so I guess that lines up
that makes sense.
I'd love kind of the unknown,and so I guess that lines up
that makes sense.
I love to learn a little bitmore.
Your first pillar ismindfulness meditation.
So if you were passing someoneon the street or jumping in an
elevator or something, how wouldyou describe mindful meditation
to someone in the three minuteelevator speed?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Absolutely so.
Mindfulness meditation isbasically kind of a phrase.
Right, there is mindfulness andthen there's meditation.
Okay, mindfulness is just askill.
It's just that the bestdefinition of mindfulness I've
ever heard is by a man named ZenKabat, and his mindfulness is
the ability to be aware of yourmoment-to-moment experience
(20:13):
without judging.
That's it.
Just being aware of yourmoment-to-moment experience
prior to judging it.
That is what the mindfulnessskill is.
That's it Just being aware ofyour moments of experience prior
to judging it.
That is what the mindfulnessskill is.
It's like I was saying earlierwe always ethically judge our
experience.
Do I want more of thisexperience or less of this
experience?
Do I want to have more coffee?
Do I want to have more sex ordo I want to have less
frustration and less pain?
(20:33):
Right, like we're always tryingto pick what we want in our
lives and what we don't want inour lives.
But there's a in mindfulnesspractice you can just be with
your experience without graspingto it and without and when you
can pull that skill into yourreal life.
That is the benefit ofmindfulness practice.
Now, meditation is more or lesslike the gym it's where you go
(20:54):
to practice your mindfulness.
Does that make sense, we all goto the gym to exercise, but the
real benefits are taking thephysical benefits of exercise
into our real lives so that wecan, you know, get off the couch
easier.
We're not developing diseasesand cardiovascular issues, right
?
This is what physical exercisedoes for us.
Well, with mindfulness practice, we're kind of doing the same
(21:17):
thing where meditation is wherewe go to just practice our skill
of mindfulness, and thenpulling mindfulness into our
everyday lives is the trick.
I mean, you can practicemeditation for three hours a day
and still be an app toeverybody, right, there's no
problem there.
But being able to take theseskills into your actual life is
what we're trying to do with ourmindfulness skill.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So that would be my take, that is.
That's a perfect rundown, Ithink.
If you don't understand itafter that, I don't know.
That's about as good as you canget.
I wanted to touch on somethingthat we talked about earlier,
and I think this is a core thing.
Many people, including myself,struggle with slowing down right
.
What advice do you have to givesomeone starting out this
mindfulness journey?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Just that you know you're going to sit down from
the moment you can rememberbeing aware, right?
You're always telling yourselfa story of something you need to
do or something that isrequired of you to be doing, and
you're always telling yourselfthis story, right?
And we fail to recognize justhow little of our lives we
actually control.
(22:16):
Okay, I mean, the averageperson in America now probably
relies on over a thousand peoplea day just to have a normal day
.
You know, we all rely on thewater guy to make sure that the
pH levels and the bacteria aregood, we all rely on the
construction worker to make sureour roads are working and we
all rely on our teachers to makesure our kids are safe and
(22:36):
educated while we're hard atwork.
And then we're just part ofthis huge network of distributed
responsibility for our lives.
But we tell ourselves thisstory that we're either the
victim of oppression within ourcommunity and we have to
overcome it, or we're the heroover that oppression and we are
the ones that are responsiblefor our own success.
But we failed to recognize thatyou didn't choose your parents
(22:58):
and you didn't choose thecountry or the time that you
were born.
You didn't choose the talentsthat you were given and you
didn't choose the mistakes orthe pitfalls of the life that
you were given right.
And we're all just adapting andwe're all just changing and
we're all just responding to ourexperience and you can either
let the billboard balls of lifekind of ding you around mentally
(23:21):
or you can kind of take thereins of your own picture of
your reality by sitting downobserving how your mind is
painting it and in time you canbegin to use your attention in
the direction that you want to,because you've trained your
attention.
You know, we all know what it'slike these days.
You know, on a societal level,we're all training our attention
about 10 seconds at a timethrough video reels.
(23:41):
You know I don't know ifanybody's noticed that the
biggest societal issue we havethese days is an impoverishment
of our attention.
I mean, if we're honest aboutthe screen time notifications on
Saturday or our phones, youknow.
If you're honest about that orday, or our phones, you know if
you're honest about that, you'respending four hours a day on
your phone.
Where is your attention beingpaid?
You are the product now andnone of us are realizing that
(24:04):
the price we're paying, but it'son view for all of us.
Everybody's outraged byeverything, everyone.
There's no community out thereanymore.
Everyone feels isolated andalone.
Everybody just numbs themselveswith visual outputs from their
phone, and this is all becausewe're just nobody's training
their attention anymore.
Nobody is diligently focusingand it's been stolen from us.
(24:25):
It's been stolen from usbecause we are not training it
anymore and it's just gettingharder and harder for us to all
have a common, shared storyabout what's going on in our
world, who we are as people,where we're going, and I think a
lot of this just needs to kindof be recognized in our society
if we're going to come backtogether and push human
civilization forward or destroyourselves in the meantime.
(24:47):
So that's something I would sayto that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, it's wild that we're more connected with you
know electrons and thingsthrough the internet than ever
before, but I don't know if wefeel more connected than we do
than ever before.
I feel like there's a lot ofisolation and a lot of problems.
So I'm curious, like someone islistening.
That sounds great.
I'd love to start.
You know where it's Thursdayright now.
(25:10):
We're rolling into Friday.
Like, hey, I'm going to startMonday.
Like what is the very first day?
What's the shift from not doingthis to the first day?
What does that look like as youtransition?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So you know it's not going to be a whole lot
different than any time you'veever done anything uncomfortable
.
You know the oddest thing aboutmindfulness meditation is just
starting.
Okay, when you're waiting at adoctor's office, how long do you
wait before you grab your phoneor grab a magazine to distract
yourself?
You know not very long, not verylong.
Somebody, sam Harris.
(25:41):
He's a philosopher and he has amindfulness app as well.
Something he said once thatreally stuck with me was you
know, in prisons, when somebodymisbehaves in prison, what do we
do with this person?
We put them in isolation, right, and this is considered like
the worst possible form ofpunishment for this individual,
so much so that we have verydeep regulations on how long you
can keep somebody in isolation,right.
(26:03):
But if you were to put aBuddhist monk in this same room,
he'd be fine for days.
And now, what is the differencebetween these two men?
One person has learned tomaster their mind.
That is it.
That's the end of story.
So when you're at that doctor'soffice or you're waiting in line
and we're constantly seekingsomething to, it's because you
don't want to be alone with yourown mind.
Going up there and being aloneis boring.
(26:24):
It's like being you know, it'slike being stolen by the world's
most boring individual and toldthe same story over and over
and over again.
And you know distressingyourself over your own failures
and embarrassing moments fromwhen you were six years old and
you did something stupid that noone else noticed that you did,
but you know you'll be sittingthere and you'll remember this
memory from when you were likeeight and you did something
embarrassing and like Sally sawyou and the last time you saw
(26:47):
Sally was in seventh grade Like,why are you even worried about
what she saw?
She hasn't thought about itsince that day, right, but here
you are, like face palmingbecause of something you did
when you were six.
It's ridiculous.
In there and sitting there inmindfulness is just having the
courage to get up there and say,okay, I'm going to untangle all
of the ways in which my mindhas tried to tell itself and its
(27:10):
own story of its existence andI'm just going to get in there
and kind of see what, what,observe it.
If you want to understand yourown mind, you just have to sit
down and observe it.
So that's a very round way ofanswering your question, but the
first step would just be thatto just sit down.
It helps to have a goodmindfulness instructor.
It helps to have some guidedmeditations at the very first at
least, to get underground ofwhat you're trying to do.
(27:32):
You know, at FoundationFortified I start from first
principles for first respondersAnybody can go to Foundation
Fortified and pick upmindfulness.
You know, if you aren't a firstresponder and you want to
understand mindfulness, you cango to my free side there and you
can just start.
You'll hear a lot of firstresponder themes.
You know you hear a lot ofthings, that first responder
language.
So in mindfulness they'll saysomething like, you know, bring
(27:52):
your awareness to the breath.
You'll hear me a fire cat intalking to police officers, say
something like bring yoursituational awareness to the
breath, because a firstresponder is taught very early
on to have something calledsituational awareness and that's
something we say to each otherwhen one of us gets a feeling
that something's not right orhigh alert here or hey, we're in
(28:13):
a dangerous environment.
Situational awareness, guys, weall know what that means.
So to be able to sit down inyour meditation practice and
have an instructor who'sfamiliar enough with your own
mind to say bring your situationthis is immediately, you know,
relatable for first responders.
So you'll get some languagelike that under my program.
But you know, just finding agood meditation instructor who
(28:33):
can start at first principlesand walk you through kind of a
basic, you know platform of whatyou're trying to cultivate at
first is a good place to start,but it really is just like that.
It's like having the courage tostart.
You know, some of the people inthe gym that really bring me
full of inspiration are theindividuals who are clearly
overweight, clearly lost in thegym and clearly just trying to
(28:54):
get through this workout.
And those are the individualsthat are most inspiring, because
you know they're confused, youknow they can be seen and they
just want to make that change.
That's what it feels like to gointo a meditation hall the
first time and not know where tosit and not know how to act,
and just want you know what Imean.
You just have to start, likeanything else, but you really
have to have the courage tostart with yourself.
(29:15):
It's that Michael Jackson song.
Everybody says they do work onthemselves.
Everybody says you know, oh,I'm working on myself, I'm
working on myself, but we're not.
You can't possibly work withyourself if you aren't starting
with the very tool that createswho you are, that creates the
reality in which you live in,that tells itself a story of why
you are and who you are.
(29:35):
You can't possibly work onyourself until you know yourself
.
Mindfulness practice is reallythe best place to go to start
that, and the type ofdisciplines and the type of all
of the religious.
You know, one of the things Itell first, if you don't mind,
one of the things I tell firstresponders all the time is you
know, imagine if the nunnery,the Catholic nunnery, discovered
bodybuilding.
(29:55):
You know, back in like the 1700s, right, like they just started
picking up rocks and buildingsynagogues, and you know finding
huge muscles.
You know they might literallyattribute all of those gains to
sacrificing labor to the Lord.
And you know, discoveringchants and making songs about
body.
We might still avoidweightlifting, like it might be
so covered in strangeness that,like Western society never
(30:18):
picked it up.
And this is where we findmindfulness practice these days.
It was discovered in the East,captured by religion and
completely dogmatized for wellover 4,000 years.
And we're just in this placeright now where some Western
scientists have gone back East,brought to university, studied
the practice, divorced it of anyof the dogmatism that isn't
(30:38):
needed and captured what'svaluable about the practice.
And now we're starting to bringit into a place where it's now
more taught as a mental healthand a positive way of living
your life rather than areligious practice.
Now it's starting to gaintraction as like a daily
practicable habit like physicalexercise.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
That's good stuff.
It sounds like it can reallybenefit anyone, doesn't matter
first responder or not.
It sounds like you got a lot ofgood stuff.
I wanted to ask you are a firstresponder and so you got those
high stress situations.
I was curious is there aspecific mindfulness technique
that's been especially helpfulfor you in those high stress
situations?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
that's been especially helpful for you in
those high stress situations.
You know that's a really goodquestion, but there's, I would
have to say I'm going to go withself-compassion.
I'm going to go withself-compassion and I say that
it feels like chewing on foil.
You know what I mean.
Like I know what that soundslike to most people when they
say that you knowself-compassion, mindfulness,
loving, kindness, practice Likethat's a mouthful right and I
(31:39):
totally am.
You know, I was born and raisedin Chandler, arizona, and I
became a firefighter and aRepublican father and was.
You know what I mean?
And I discovered mindfulness,meditation.
And now I'm here talking aboutself-compassion and the reason
for that is because someone onceheard someone say you should
(32:01):
never leave the house withoutyour best friend.
But you happen to be the onethey mean when they say that.
You know we all live with thisperson who's the meanest
individual to us all the timeI'll go to Starbucks and I'll
order a vinty coffee and I'llbeat myself up the rest of the
day for not saying venti.
I'll be humiliated, I'll callmyself an idiot and I'll just
destroy myself over this littlething.
(32:22):
But if your buddy did that,you'd be like vinti you give him
a laugh and then it'd be theend of it right.
And if you happen to see yourfriend was bothered by something
, you would have compassion foryour friend.
You know you broke it over.
But to ourselves, we demoralizeourselves, we humiliate
ourselves, we're constantlytalking down to ourselves, we're
constantly trying to fix ourvanity because we can't look
(32:45):
good enough for other people.
So a well-developedself-compassion practice is a
place where you can go tounderstand that you aren't
perfect and nobody's perfect.
And all of your insecuritiesmight be flavored slightly
different than other people'sinsecurities, but their
insecurities are there as well.
Whether or not you're insecurityabout you know you're tall and
skinny, or you're short and fat,or you're insecure about the
(33:08):
fact that you aren't asbeautiful as you wish you were,
or you aren't as.
Whatever your insecurity, weall have them and it's just
working through the component ofthe minds and security where
mindfulness practice isbeneficial.
Security is just insecurity.
The flavoring of it doesn'tmatter.
Within the mind, we all havethem.
And when you begin tounderstand that about yourself,
you do start to apply it toother people.
(33:29):
And now all of a sudden you'rejust a kinder, nicer person to
be around.
You might hold that door open.
You might notice somebody needshelp with something and you'll
just go over and help thembecause you've needed help too.
It's really odd how a goodself-compassion practice will
start to help.
You just see others.
We all just live our lives inour phones and we're all always
surrounded by people.
We don't see people anymore.
(33:51):
Firefighters and firstresponders still see people.
We're responsible forresponding to these people at
their worst days, so we stillsee people.
We see people so well that wepunish ourselves and we can't
help people.
You know, and a goodself-compassion practice will
just help you see people, seeyourself.
So I would.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I would definitely say that is probably the the
best form of my practice andit's funny too, because it's
like things that we know we justdon't do.
Like we say, put yourself insomeone else's shoes, walk a
mile, and someone should likeall these different phrases and
whatnot.
But it's like things that weknow we just don't do.
Like we say, put yourself insomeone else's shoes, walk a
mile in someone's shoes, likeall these different phrases and
whatnot.
But it's like one thing to sayit and whatnot, but to actually
do it like, actually think aboutthat connect and empathy.
You know, I think a lot oftimes we get caught up in
(34:29):
sympathy like oh, poor you.
But really like thinking whenwas a time you were low or you
know, at that spot that otherperson was.
That's that real connection andthat empathy versus the
sympathy.
Well, Josh, the next pillar youhave is first responders and
mental wellness.
Someone to ask what uniquechallenges do first responders
specifically face in mentalhealth and resilience?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Real, quick as a sidebar, we're going to have to
edit this out.
I'm sorry.
My garage door broke last night, and so my garage door guy is
going to be here soon and Imight have to go open.
Show him real quick.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, you're good, so ask me your question again.
I'm sorry, he just.
He just texted me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Oh, you're all good.
What unique challenges do firstresponders face when it comes
to mental health and resilience?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
no-transcript have discovered this new form of
suffering that humans haven'tever had to contend with before.
You know a normal human affair.
You know mindfulness practicewill show you how suffering
works within the mind and withinthe course of human life.
Now something awful happenswithin your life.
You lose somebody that'sirreplaceable to you in your
life and you're immediately puton this course of grief, right,
(35:50):
and we all know the five stagesof grief and how that model has
been changed over the years andall that.
And there's still a model thereand we all know what that is.
And then you have community.
Whether you have largecommunity support or only a
couple close ones come to you atyour aid and you begin to clean
out, eventually, the deceased'sthings and you go through this
entire process that is, althoughpainful, is very, very human,
(36:14):
and it's why losing somebodythat we care about is such an
awful but important part of ourlives.
Right Now, first responderswatch the suffering of a
community from a third-partynarrative.
Right, we never get to knowwhether or not Sally found a
foster family after her parentswere lost on this car accident.
You know, we just get to wonderwhatever happened to Sally, and
(36:37):
then where that car accident is, is forever Sally to us,
because we can't ever know whathappened to Sally.
So instead we just remember howSally's life changed forever
that day, and then we alwayswonder, and after we do this for
a certain amount of time, ourcommunity becomes a distributed
map of harm and suffering thatwe never get to really cope or
(36:58):
finish any of these stories, andso that is a very strange place
for the human mind to try todwell in and then continue to
respond and live in thatcommunity.
So I would say that's one veryintimate way in which first
responders have just kind of dueto the nature of our work,
discovered this new way to turna human mind into a knot.
And in order to protect yourphysical health, exercise here's
(37:19):
how to diet.
We're going to do that an houra day.
Here's how to exercise we'regoing to do that an hour a day.
I think the key that we'remissing is hey, we're going to
(37:40):
protect that mind of yours.
Here's how to be mindful 10minutes a day, and you're going
to do it throughout your academy.
We're have certain physicalrequirements that we have to
meet, but by and large, you canbe as healthy or unhealthy as
you want within a certain youknow frame, and that can be true
for your mental health as well.
(38:01):
But we should be training theskills to our recruits.
We should be giving this as askill, not because we can't give
you a therapist when you're not, we're not going to give you a
doctor when you're unhealthy,but we're going to give you a
skill that we can demonstrablyprove now in the lab,
scientifically.
That is a skill that canprevent these mental health
diseases that we know you are ata higher risk for that.
(38:23):
We know so many of our firstresponders are struggling with
the likelihood that you're goingto have PTSD or anxiety or
develop a negative copingmechanism or substance abuses
are much higher than the averagepopulation.
We're going to give you a skillto help us with that.
Mindfulness is the key andthat's why I'm trying to build,
I'm trying to change the culture.
If I want to go talk to firechiefs and police chiefs, I want
(38:44):
to change the culture of firstresponse, to deploy this skill
into our recruits so that we canprevent these issues going
forward.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
That's some powerful stuff, Josh.
Thank you for your service andall the other first responders.
Man, I can't imagine my mind.
I feel like it's too activealready, so I'd be really
wondering what's going on.
And just having to have thememory of that location being
negative, that's really rough.
The next question I had for youare there any misconceptions
(39:12):
about mental wellness in highstakes professions that you'd
like to address?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of them.
A lot of people think,unfortunately, that mental
fortitude is the key.
My business is calledFoundation Fortified because
your mind is your foundation andyou should practice to fortify
it.
But a lot of our veterans justbelieve you need to buck up
buckaroo and you need to stuffthat down.
(39:37):
You know, these days, those ofus that are talking about mental
health, we're creating theproblem.
We didn't have these problems.
Why do you younger men start tohave these problems right?
Meanwhile they'll grab theiralcohol and they'll, you know,
struggle with their divorces andthey'll, you know, struggle
with what we've allunfortunately begun to see our
leadership struggle with infirst response, and it's not
(39:57):
getting any better.
It's not getting easier to be apolice officer if we haven't
noticed.
It's not getting easier to be afirefighter if we haven't
noticed.
You know it's not gettingeasier to be an ambulance
paramedic.
You know it's not gettingeasier to be a dispatcher.
These are all forms of the jobthat are only getting harder as
societies scale.
More population increases,there's more ways in which
humans are finding.
You know ways to hurt or killourselves as we interact with
(40:20):
chemicals and cars at highspeeds, and you know more and
more mental health issues areleading to more and more
societal chaos, with schoolshootings and things like that.
It's not getting easier to be afirst responder, and so we've
got to be doing something tohelp first responders cope
mentally, and I believe thesimple skill of mindfulness is
one of these things that we candeploy in our industry.
(40:41):
It isn't going to solve all ofour problems, but if it can
reduce our overhead of mentalhealth issue by 50%, I mean if
we had a magic pill that wecould just give first responders
the day they were hired, justsay here, take, this has very
low side effects, right, youmight notice a little bit of
headache, might be sweating, butafter that you'll be fine and
(41:02):
it's going to avoid mentalhealth We'd give it to her.
It'd be illegal for us not togive it to them, right, and this
is just a skill that we shouldbe giving to our recruits.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
So it's just wild.
For the longest time you weresupposed to be strong and not
have any feelings and bottle andall these things.
I'm so glad you know I have theshow and there's other shows
and we're trying to have theseconversations and I hope with
every conversation you know,people feel more comfortable on
getting the help and sitting andmeditating and you know, fill
in the blank like take care ofyourself, take care of your mind
(41:37):
.
These are super importantthings.
The last pillar you have isgiving back and making an impact
.
What role does service play inyour life and why is it
important to you?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
You know be useful has always just kind of been
like a simple phrase for me.
You know, just be useful.
You know, my dad and I startedbusiness when I was a kid and I
started working with him when Iwas probably nine.
You know, and my dad's only.
That's going to be my garageguy.
Can I take a quick five minutes?
Yep, you're good.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Oh, I'm so sorry.
You're good.
Oh, it just starts again.
Okay, josh, can you share amoment when giving back made a
lasting impact to me?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
My father and I started a carpet cleaning and
tile cleaning business back whenI was a kid.
I think I mentioned a littlebit of that earlier.
Part of a component of thatbusiness was flood restoration.
I attribute flood restorationfor some of what brought me into
the fire service as well.
People's homes were destroyedthrough water and we went in
(42:29):
there to try to fix it right.
No different than a fire a fireattacked your home today, right
?
Um well, I was on this flood joband these individuals had just
come, moved to arizona verycommon back when I was a kid.
Everybody moves to phoenix,arizona um well, the dishwasher
guy had come out and not hookedup the water correctly and they
went for a walk and in 15minutes their house was three
(42:51):
inches underwater.
And so we, we go to this floodjob and I'm in the closet
sucking out water with ourmachine, right, and I see this
box that says photos and therehad been water that was wicked
up halfway up this box, right,and I just remember grabbing the
box and just, you know I'm like12, you know I'm just doing
everything I can to get this.
(43:11):
But it's tearing here and it'stearing there and my dad sees
what I'm doing and my dad's likewhat are you doing, oh my God.
And at this point he was forcedto help me get the pictures out
of the area because I had madesuch a mess.
But by the time we got the boxwhere it was safe, we had saved
so much of the box after we hadtaken it all out and the family
was just looking at old photosby the time we were leaving the
(43:32):
job three hours later and theywere laughing at some of these
memories and I just rememberthinking if I would have not
done it, water would have justcontinued to destroy that box
and my dad was even not like atfirst seeing the importance and
I thought I'd made a mistake,even right.
And then I just remember theworst day of their lives was now
, you know, a memory for thisfamily on looking over some old
(43:53):
photos.
So that was probably the firsttime that was probably the first
time.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
That's a good one.
I'm going to make that asnippet for sure that one's
going on TikTok.
What's one way someone canstart making a difference in
their community today?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
You know, as silly as it sounds, just being a better
being, a more diligent operatorof your own attention, you know
being taking the reins of yourown attention and better using
it, using the most valuablething you have in your life to
better use.
You know so much of us spend somuch time wasting.
You know, I can't I think itwas the UK.
The UK came out with this termthat I can't get out of my mind.
(44:26):
It's called brain rot and youknow it was the term of the year
for them.
Right, brain rot.
And it's just these video reelsthat we spend because, you know
, something goofy happened at arestaurant.
This person captured it on thecamera and we'll watch it for
three minutes to see how thisperson was eventually ex, you
know, excused out of themcdonald's like, and that's how
(44:47):
we spent three minutes.
And then let's go to the nextone and the next one, and it's
just this brain rot.
And and we wonder why, you know, but everybody, everybody also
simultaneously believes thatthey can be their own doctor and
that they can be their ownfinancial advisor.
And you can be your own, youknow, health expert as well, but
you're spending your day, fourhours, engulfed in tiktok, I
(45:09):
promise you, the doctor, despitehis mistakes, spent hours
studying diagnoses and healthproblems, and the water guy at
the water facility went tocollege to understand.
We all have to trust others atsome point and, at the end of
the day, until you're using yourattention in a more useful way
(45:29):
not only for your happiness inyour life, but for the citizens
around you you aren't part ofwhat's going on.
You're more of a parasite thanyou are a contributor.
We all are contributors throughour job.
Like I said, I have to rely onthe construction worker.
I have to rely on the cop andthe firefighter to show up.
I have to rely.
But what else are you doing inyour life to contribute?
(45:52):
Who are you going to be?
Are you going to have thatfuneral where your family and
friends show up and talk abouthow important you were, or are
you going to be the person thatfills a football stadium full of
people demonstrating howimportant you were?
There's something you got to bedoing in your society that's
bigger than you are.
If you want to know why you'reunhappy, it's because you're
spending your life trying togratify your own impulses.
(46:13):
The real satisfaction.
People wonder why kids are sovaluable to us.
Kids are the most selfish wayof getting that feeling of a
bigger impact in this world.
It's so easy being a father oftwo boys.
They fill me with so muchimportance in my life.
Right, I got to buy them shoesand I got to cook them lunch and
I got to clean them.
I'm so important.
(46:34):
If I wasn't around they'd bedead, but that's like the
easiest way to get that.
But leaving them on theirbirthday to go and respond to a
community and to not be there onChristmas.
You know that's what I'm doingand that's what first responders
are doing in our society.
They aren't there becausethey're protecting you on your
birthday.
They're ensuring that thetraffic is flowing and they're
(46:56):
ensuring that the burglariesaren't happening and they're
ensuring that the hazardouschemicals are staying in the
containers they need to stay inso that your house, two and a
half miles away, isn't being offgas while you're cooking your
burgers at night.
You know this is what firstresponders are up to in the
world in the background, and wenotice when they make mistakes
and we notice when theyinconvenience our days, but we
don't notice all the ways inwhich first responders clean up
(47:19):
the dead without us ever knowingthey clean up our streets.
They do so much in thebackground for us so that we can
just live our lives, and so, ifyou want to be a contributor,
being a first responder is agreat way another selfish way, I
would say because at leastyou're getting paid, you're
providing.
That's another.
You know what are you doing insociety.
(47:39):
That's bigger than you.
That's the biggest way to notonly find more happiness in your
life, but to actually be partof a community once again.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do the best that you can atyour job and you know it fits
into the larger picture.
That's good stuff, josh.
I want to bring it all together.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to someone who wants to
live a more mindful andservice-driven life, what would
be your final takeaway?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I would just submit that most people that are
listening to this conversation,most people, are living a life
that is more or less dedicatedto one single task and that's
gratifying your next impulse andavoiding the next thing that
makes you feel uncomfortable.
That is the way you're probablyspending most of your life.
Mindfulness is a way where youcan kind of stop living that
(48:25):
constant moment to moment.
What do I want, what do I don'twant?
And it's a way to be able tosay there's got to be something
else here.
There's got to be something inthis moment to be glad for.
Now I might reach for somethingthat I enjoy, like my wife's
hand when we're watching a movie, but if I never touch my wife's
hand again, that is going to belike the worst day of my life
(48:45):
if something ever happens to mywife.
But there's still a moment inthis moment to find happiness.
There's still something worthhaving here.
You can live a life whereyou're dedicated to just
constantly getting what you wantand avoiding what you don't, or
you can live a life that's opento whatever is given to you and
you find happiness within that,and then anything life gives
(49:07):
you is a moment to be happy, andthat's what I would submit
about mindfulness practice.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Just an added bonus.
Everything else will be good.
Well, that was some awesomestuff on mindful meditation.
Check out the website.
I'll try to get it in the linkswhen it's posted, but, josh,
thank you for coming out.
I'd like to ask everyone outthere for your feedback.
The feedback makes this podcasteven better.
Drop your thoughts or questionson Instagram, facebook, TikTok,
youtube, buzzsprout all thosefun social media platforms that
(49:32):
we're on and thank you for beinga part of the Mindforce journey
.
I love you all.
See ya, thank you.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!