Episode 84: Nosferatu

Episode Transcript
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Michael Cockerill (00:14):
Welcome to Mind Frames, the sometimes half-assed, always wholehearted film conversation. We take one movie generally, this week we are, and we look at it through our two minds.
Keeping that one frame, two minds, you get the idea. Also, you know, movies have frames. With you, as always, I'm Michael Cockrell, one of your hosts, ah and and Dave,

Dave (00:40):
I'm Dave Canfield, the other host.

Today we're talking about Robert Eggers' Nostra Fratu, a remake of the classic early silent 1922, well not early silent, but early movie, silent film, F.W.

Dave (00:47):
Yes, we are.

Murnau's original silent masterpiece done for our modern audiences. um And this version of Nosferatu and the original, but in this version, the summon to a bloodthirsty vampire's faraway castle, a young land clerk embarks on a harrowing journey into the unknown as his innocent wife falls under the spell of a terrifying shadow in her dreams is the official synopsis.

(01:22):
We'll expand on that, of course. um You know, I think, Dave, we have have we covered every Robert Eggers movie on our podcast, except The Witch.

Dave (01:32):
Except the witch.

That wasn't, we weren't a going concern.

Dave (01:36):
No, we weren't. But I think we probably would have.

We absolutely would have covered it.
That's like our bread and butter. So needless to say, we can forego the usual, how familiar are you with Robert Eggers? We're both very familiar. I think we're both fans. um He's a millennial director.
you know I love millennial. He's a horror director. you know Dave loves horror. um and he loves beautiful cinematography and attention to details. So he's right up our alley, I think.

(02:07):
What else?

Dave (02:07):
Yeah, a lot of lot of great film craft as usual from Mr.

ah but ah You know,

Dave (02:11):
Eggers.

I almost feel like he's ah he's kind of like a Ridley Scott. He gets obsessed with details, goes so deep on something, recreates the dialects, um creates a whole internal world.
um And I think that's been successful in all of his movies. I consider all of his movies a success, Dave. I loved The Northman.

Dave (02:35):
Yeah, you'll get no argument from me. I think the Northman is criminally underlooked. And, ah you know, it was really amusing to me to watch people sort of try to nay say the witch, you know, you always get the inevitable backlash. And I mean, here we are a few years later, of course, I think pretty much everybody agrees that the witch is one of the greatest horror movies of the last, you know, what would be about 10 years. um So i yeah yeah, I don't think this guy's made a bad movie and I'm always interested to hear what he's doing. And I've heard a lot of things that he might be up to next. um Perhaps a Western. um He's talked about wanting to make a Western. I would really love to see that.

(03:21):
ah He wanted to make a version of Frankenstein, but um Guillermo del Toro ah is going to put his out. Instead, i think I don't think any of the other studios want to compete with that. so um and he And he said he was happy about that. He said he thought del Toro would do great. But yeah, you know he um this is though I have to say, the first time he is adapting someone else's material,

Well, ah you know, all of his movies have been not a direct adapt adaptation, but I feel like all of his movies have been adaptation of myth. ah You know, the the Norseman, ah the Northman, I'm going to do that a lot, people. I'm sorry, but I always do that. The Northman is an adaptation of the Viking saga of Hamill or whatever his name is. um The lighthouse is a little I consider the lighthouse is like off of the ah off the grid movie. I don't it doesn't fit in as neatly to the other ones. But in a sense, it's an adaptation of, ah you know, what we think of as a lonesome sailor. The witch is very much an adaptation of those of the myth of our witch and our our fear of witches. um you So you can see like he loves myths and he goes and makes them their own. And I think Nosferatu qualifies as a myth, ah you know,

Dave (04:43):
Oh, yeah.

Dracula has been around what 40 years longer than the original Nosferatu. It's getting that it's getting up there. It's falling into mythical category, even though it it is technically a a film and a book. But I i think it's in our our our collective eth mythos.

Dave (05:02):
I think that it' definitely the character of Orlok is and some of the images that are very famous from the film. I mean, it's interesting because Masperatu comes from a time when cinema was silent like and images were everything. And a lot of people, I think, knew about Nosferatu prior to seeing it in in our in our more modern times.

(05:28):
um But, you know, he's not the first one to do this. ah ah Werner Herzog made a version of Nosferatu in 1979. And there's another one, actually, that hasn't come out yet that has played some of the festival circuits, but it stars Doug Jones as Nosferatu. And it utilizes green screen to create all the, to to take images from the original film and place them, um place the new performances in it.

(06:00):
which is a very interesting visual idea. I'm interested to see if that works narratively or not. But um yeah, he he's he's like and um he's like a myth maker. I would put him on the level of del Toro in terms of like world building and all that kind of stuff.

It really goes deep into the cinematic history of. You know, he steals from a lot of obscure cinematic references. um You know, I you would probably know better than me where he's stolen from here, Dave. And I i can't remember, but I was thinking of that Romanian horror movie from the 40s that he stole. He he borrowed heavily or locks look from. um And I think also.

(06:45):
Later adaptations also kind of borrowed from that. So he's kind of borrowing from the borrowing it. And in some ways I'm referring to the facial distinctive facial facial feature that Nosferatu has. I don't think it's spoiler.
Is it a spoil to say what the distinctive.

Dave (06:58):
Oh, no, everybody's talking about that at this point.

Yeah, so he the the the the Vlad like the Vlad the Impaler like mustaches I think borrowed from I can't remember the name of that movie like with something.

Dave (07:11):
Well.

It's it's got some one word name.

Dave (07:15):
Really, I don't I'm not I don't know if I'm aware of that one. I do know that if you there is one other movie I'm aware of where they go for the mustachioed kind of like you know, what what do you what do you call a despotic, you know, Wallachian, and that is a just Franco movie called Count Dracula, which follows the book from what I understand very, very closely, and stars Christopher Lee um in a very different interpretation of the role than he offers up in the Hammer films.

Well, I'll try to search the Internet for the name of the movie that I'm thinking of. I will have to get back to you on it, but it's a one word name.
I'll think of it. I'm surprised you don't remember it because I sent you a link that contained this information, but ah I'll think about it.

Dave (08:10):
Oh!

I'll think about it. And yeah.

Dave (08:13):
Spengali?

You know, Svengali is also influenced, too, but wasn't the one I'm thinking of is much more obscure.

Dave (08:18):
Yeah, it is. Yeah, and that's the silent John Barrymore version from the 20s, Spengali. Yeah, the close-ups of the eyes and the hypno stuff in Spengali, definitely.

So let's do our spoiler-free reviews, Dave, and then we can get into our topic for today. Our topic today is the humanization and the sympathies we have for vampires, or that we don't, um and how that's changed throughout um cinematic history. So that will be our topic for today. But before we delve into that, I'm prepared to to give a review, Dave.

Dave (08:57):
Okay, well what do you think?

Well, it's no surprise that I loved it. It was one of my favorite movies of the year. I think it's going to be in my top five whenever I can actually see all the movies from the year or the ones at least that I want to see. um When we were sitting in the film screening, and when we're sitting in AMC waiting waiting for our screening, Dave. you know i I said that the number one thing I wanted was like nods to the the German expressionist lighting and cinematography. Because that is when I think of, cinema talk when I think of Nosferatu,

(09:30):
I think of the image of Nosferatu in clips and shadows with the fingers, all right? And my wish was delivered. Not only did I get that wish, but I also got a great story, great casting, ah a great cast performing perfectly, beautiful tale, but I got that in so much more. Robert Eggers was definitely on that page. um There's lots of high contrast lighting, Cher's Girl shading, um just like you get in the original.

(09:57):
ah original Nosferatu. Some of the scenes are so high contrast and so saturated, um have such a, de such a desaturated color palette that it almost looks black and white. So it's like, yeah there are so many callbacks to that original Nosferatu. And I love that look and feel. And when you started saying earlier day, like, well, they didn't have any sound, that's they all they had to work with was imagery. I was afraid you're going to steal my thunder here and loving, um loving the the lighting and the cinematography.

(10:29):
you know It has static shots, and the pacing kind of is reminiscent of of the original Nosferatu 2, which you know is kind of limited by pacing without sound and with title cards. um But the the slow pace of that, it builds up the suspense um in a modern sense.
Yeah, the use of shadow silhouettes. I loved it. That is the number one thing I went in wanting to see. And that is what I saw in droves. I was I was you know, the film may have been desaturated, but I was saturated with like the pleasure of seeing that. um Yeah. And another thing that I really love, Dave, and this is what I wrote and i I'll try to see if I made in my notes any specific examples, but there are recreations, modern recreations of scenes, of imagery from the original Nosferatu.

Dave (11:19):
Yes. Yes.

And so ah ah you know exactly what you're talking about, but the scenes of like Nosferatu, his shadow being cast over the city, we get a beautiful modern version of that, which I think i think if the original creators were around today and they saw this, they would really be proud that their their legacy was continued. um I mean, they'd have to learn English, but, you know. ah ah Or yeah it does have subtitles and a narrative, maybe if they know whatever, ancient Romanian or or medieval Romanian. But I think the number one thing I went in looking for was that symmetric lighting style, and I got it. Now, on top of that, um that's the thing that I think really makes it stand out for me.

(12:11):
But I thought Lily Rose Depp's performance was amazing. um she I think she's stealing every scene.

Dave (12:15):
Yes.

I hardly remember what the other guys were doing in the movie.

Dave (12:23):
It's interesting, yeah, we're going to talk about that.

she's She's the star of of of it for me. I think Count Warlock is very interestingly designed. um That's stealing the scene for most people. But for me, Lee Rose Depp was stealing all of those scenes, i though i I love the menacing presence of Orlok. I found the ending challenging in a good way. um I like that it, you know, perhaps not as much as a Nora, but I like that the ending could be interpreted multiple ways. And it's kind of a you know, you you get what you know, you get out of it what you see into it. I do think there is a definitive interpretation of the ending.

(13:01):
Or at least I think there's a logical interpretation to the ending. i wouldn't Maybe I shouldn't go as far to say definitive, but um I enjoyed the ending quite a bit, even though I had to think about it for a little bit.
And, you know, maybe we can talk about the ending, too. But overall, I enjoyed the movie a lot.

Dave (13:15):
Yeah. All right.

Yeah, great, great set design, great, great cinematography. deserves. I just can't believe it's not winning any awards. I don't know why, but that's the way it goes. It won cinematography at Chicago, the CFCA.
um I hope that it's at least in the running for the Oscars because great homage to to German expressionism, specifically to Nosferatu, and really enhances the story.

(13:51):
I hope that it's in the running for cinematography.

Dave (13:53):
Well, if it does get nominated for any Oscars, it will be in the company of the other film that features Nosferatu or Count Orlock ah that had Oscar nominations.

How about

Dave (14:03):
And that was in the Shadow of the Vampire ah in which Willem Dafoe, who in this movie plays um of Van Helsing or a Van Helsing-type character, and in um in that movie actually played Count Orlock.
um That would be really fun. I don't know, for my own review of this film, you know, one of the problems with ah with ah Robert Eggers is he's someone that every time he puts out a movie, people know it's coming and they get really psyched for it. And um you always, especially when somebody has made great movies so far in their career, you want them to knock it out of the park every time. You know, i am I'm very attached to his work. I'm very

(14:53):
ah in love with the way he uses myth um and the way he uses his camera. And in this film, I have to say, he absolutely knocked it out of the park for me. You know, Nosferatu has been done three times. Once was the 22 version, then Herzog, Werner Herzog did a version in 1979, and then there's this version. And all three have similarities and all three are quite a bit different. And I really feel like he forged, you know, Eggers in his version has forged his own vision. And he's offered a really compelling, interesting idea about the vampire. And he did it all while kind of keeping the essence of the original Nosferatu, which um is marked by these really startling

(15:52):
images. um And here we get not only the images but he's able to up the ante and lift it into him into the modern era um in terms of how what what viewers expect. um it's ah It's a relatively violent film compared to the other two.

(16:13):
who, uh, where the bloodletting is more, um, it's either off screen or it's, you don't see as much. Um, and here they're, you know, Count Orlok is a, is a great villain. He's a great menacing, um, evil presence. And, uh, I think you're right about Lily Rose Depp. I think she's the find of the year for me.

(16:36):
um Acting wise ah I was only aware of her in a couple of other movies She has has done that are movies that a lot of people kind of thumb their noses at tusk and Yoga hosers, but I certainly didn't expect this um This this was she was just she was just phenomenal um But I thought the whole cast was was absolutely in the pocket um and I I thought it was a movie also that had real guts to come to the end that it comes. um This is not a movie that panders in any way to the audiences ah that go to horror films. This is a very challenging and very interesting film. And I saw it three times and I can't wait to see it again.

Yeah, no doubt. And I believe it's still playing in 35 millimeter don't film like at the music box.

Dave (17:37):
at the music box? Yeah.

So if you really want to see that the saturated landscape, you can go there. um
All right. So this was the ah you said it's been done three times, but it's been done four times counting today. Right. Counting Robert Eggers version to.

Dave (17:57):
Yeah.

to

Dave (17:57):
Yeah. the Doug Jones version has only played, um, festivals so far.

Uh, yes, five, actually five, for four, 4.5.

Dave (18:04):
No, four times or four. What?

Um, 4.5.

Dave (18:08):
for
because we're going to make our own version because Mike just looks at my bald head and my her suitness and just says wow that's just got undead sexy rascal written all over it

You know, Dave, before we go into the spoiler free section, because some people drop off at this point and I want to get this discussion in before we go into it.
Let's did you have any reaction to the Golden Globes? I have two reactions to that, I'll say, and if you want to have to, you can have to, too.

Dave (18:44):
Okay.

My first reaction is. I am gobsmacked that Inora walked, walked home into handed. Might probably going to be my number one movie of the year, though. Another one might surpass its place. We'll see. Might be there might be one more. It's not Nosferatu, but Nosferatu is in the running for top five for sure. um But so I'm gobsmacked that um it walked away. I shouldn't be surprised because. um The Golden Globes, they have reformed, but they still are, you know, they give an award just for making money, if that tells you anything.

(19:17):
It's like, no. who Who was it that said, on it's like, that's what the money's for? what's's I forget. but is what What movie is that from? But anyway, um but they got an award for for making the money. and But but ah Nora walked away. i was I was hoping that Sean Baker would win cinema talk would win a director for that. um Got some photography on the brain here. But ah it walked away empty handed. And number two is, you know, Dave, I've got money writing on Demi Moore.

Dave (19:43):
ah I don't think so.

snubbed for Oscar nomination. It looks like I'm not going to win that bet because she won and I think given her speech, she's a shoo-in. She was already probably going to get in and I just want to make some money, you know, but ah she's she's now kind of moved into shoo-in territory. So those are my two reactions. Do you have any thoughts on what you saw? Do you need a second to recap? Because I totally sprung this on Dave.

Dave (20:08):
No, no, no, this is great. You know, I will confess, I did not see the Golden Globes this year. I saw the reactions to the Golden Globes and then clips afterwards. I was super happy to hear that Demi Moore won. And of course it's painful because Mikey Madison is so good in a Nora.
um But you know, I remember when Anthony Hopkins won for Silence of the Lambs and that ended a huge drought for horror movies at the Oscars. um You know, so suddenly they were back in the they were back back in the public consciousness in terms of the mainstream. And, you know, nobody had won um a major category award for a horror film, I believe since 1932 when Frederick March won Best Actor for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

(21:03):
Here you have a movie that's, you know, and that was a pre-code movie and when being and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in 1932, and it was kind of edgy. um And it remains a little bit edgy today. People are usually pretty surprised by by what's in it. um The substance is the kind of movie you can't recommend to people unless you warn them first. I mean, it is in your face with of the violence and the way that it is talking about bodies and sexuality and fame. um I think it's part ah it's it's part of one of many great conversations

(21:45):
that we're starting to have in our culture more freely. And um you know that has to do with aging and female body image and ah you know what constitutes success and fame.
um
But you know I also think that that's you know the Academy is a sucker for that. um Not only is it really tempting to reward Moore, who has not gotten a lot of awards for her work over the years and who has done some really good work, um but ah it's a movie in so in a little bit, it's a movie about the celebrity, not, but you know, movies, but I mean, obviously about the celebrity machine. And I think that, you know, Hollywood, Hollywood likes to stare at its own navel a lot. And so I think a lot of people voting are going to be tempted to to vote for this one.

I don't think she has a shot at winning the Oscar. I think I'll lose my bet that she doesn't get nominated. I think she will be nominated. um But you're talking like she's going to win. She's not going to win, Dave.

Dave (22:54):
Oh, no, I'm not saying necessarily she's going to win. she I'm just saying she is getting nominated when she's I think she's in the running.

Yeah, I think. Yeah, she will see. um You know, let's have a shot. We have a ah you know, we got to have one more topic.
Because we never keep our promises. We've got to continue to to not keep our promises. And I think um we we should have an Oscar, pre-Oscar episode. That would be fun. Maybe even like hear a Dirty Hero Live episode or something.

Dave (23:20):
Oh, yeah.

But um I have concerns about Amelia Perez, Dave.

Dave (23:27):
oh

ah I've seen it. I thought it was OK.

Dave (23:31):
Oh.

But um it's a movie about Mexico. ah filmed in France, written and directed by a a European, starring Europeans and Americans. it's is is this ah Is this another green book?
um

Dave (23:48):
oh Oh, you didn't. I know you didn't.

So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's not horrible, but at the same time, it just seems You know, if movies are telling the story about our society, it's kind of like fabricated. It's a complete fabrication of what Mexico or um I can't really speak. I'm not and don't I can't speak for Mexico either, but I definitely can't speak for the trans experience. But it also seems that those that have lived that experience also don't love its portrayal. So um I don't know. I'd love to talk more about that during our Oscar thing. But yeah, my takeaway is caution. My I am caution. I am.

(24:31):
Very cautious with Amelia Perez. I don't necessarily love what it represents.

Dave (24:33):
Yeah. No, I agree with you. I think that Amelia Perez hits again a lot of the topics that people like to see covered these days. um And I think it does so earnestly. I think it has some wonderful moments. I think it's heartfelt it in moments. um And I think everybody in it is pretty good. But at the end of the day, to me, it was kind of like,

(25:02):
I don't know, a teleno ah ah telenova soap opera ah with music. um i just I just didn't resonate with it fully as a human story. I mean, part of the problem of Amelia Perez is it is a trans story. It has a story with a trans character in the central and the central protagonist role.

(25:32):
And this is a person who has done absolutely unbelievably awful things. And then suddenly they become a woman and that's the signal that they go out and want to make the world a better place and be a better person.
um And I just don't think the the movie's realistic. I had the same problem as you. I look at it and I go, yeah, you know, it plays like it plays like a totally like a movie.

listing now.

Dave (26:01):
um And it doesn't earn the same grace for me of modern musicals that I had for La La Land or, you know, other other musicals that I've seen in in the last few years.
um So, yeah, I'm not saying thumbs down, but I don't see an Oscar. I don't I don't see any Oscars here.

OK, we'll see. We'll see. You know, I got my cynical side.

Dave (26:26):
Are we going to get our hate mail yet? Nobody sends us hate mail.

No one's going to say I don't think Amelia Perez will be a favorite of any of our listeners, Dave.

Dave (26:35):
yeah

I could be wrong, but you know, I saw the TV glow. No nominations. you If you want a trans story, it's not an overtly trans story, but there is a very, very clear allegory for the trans experience in the

Dave (26:41):
I know.

In the in the movie, I think the the the character who identifies as male wears a dress at one point. I mean, it's a very, very strong allegory, but that got nothing. So made by a white guy in France got every OK, but we'll move on from that.

Dave (26:59):
Yeah, I know.

And it's not just about who made it and it's not about who's in it, but it's about authentically reflecting the world that we live in. um Or want to live in and yeah, we let's have that discussion more Maybe we should read we maybe should watch it again, but you know, I loved the sisters brothers.

Dave (27:22):
Yeah, maybe.

In fact, I recommended it I recommend it regularly um his previous movie. um But anyway Emilia Perez, um, Is that one I've seen you haven't seen Dave?

Dave (27:32):
Ah.

I don't know.

Dave (27:37):
No, I just finished talking about it, Mike.

That's a great Yeah, it's a great movie

Dave (27:39):
I saw it. Yeah.

All right, well, let's talk vampires. Now, Dave, as a um ah decrepit, uncaring ancient. Oh,

Dave (28:02):
Has somebody as old as Count Orlok and as attractive?

no, no, no.

Dave (28:09):
Yes, go ahead.

um Dave is also nude right now. i Not recording video, but he's nude.

Dave (28:18):
Again, another homage to Nosferatu.

And he's curled his he curled his hair into a nice mustache.

Dave (28:24):
Finally, we get to see the fabled Orlok peen. What?

Anyway. um
Vampires, Dave.

Dave (28:34):
Yes.

That I know you are an expert in this, really, um but there's always been a little bit of tension with all character with all horror villains for the most part, ones that survive and become part of our collective consciousness. There's always tension between how they're portrayed, how sympathetically they're portrayed. Obviously the roots of the vampire are in Eastern Europe ah as an evil force, an evil creature.

(29:04):
But that, um even prior to Bram Stoker, excuse me, um but that has morphed, ebbed and flowed throughout history, hasn't it Dave?
What is what is your take on us and the history of the vampire and cinema?

Dave (29:17):
Yeah.

Not that your take, but walk us through it and we can comment on how we see changes in society and why we have the Nosferatu we have today.

Dave (29:32):
Well, you know, there's a very interesting interstitial card in Nosferatu in the 1922 version. If you don't know what an interstitial card is, it's whenever text pops up on screen during a silent movie.
it was part of how they told stories um ah back then. And in it, Nosferatu and the the word Nosferatu is described as something that can turn substance into shadow and ah claim you, kill you, perhaps cause you to go mad. And many, many people who talk about cinema talk about it and use that quote because of the nature of cinema being light and shadow and um that there's some sort of odd alchemy that goes on between the audience and the light and shadows that are hitting the screen. With the character of the vampire, that is very much um the case. And I want to talk a little bit about the sympathetic vampire because it's kind of what you were alluding to a moment ago. It's one of the

(30:43):
things we've done with the vampire. Before Dark Shadows in 1966, when it came out, you didn't really have sympathetic vampires. About as sympathetic as as they would get before that is something like Dracula's daughter or House of Dracula in the 30s and 40s. And that's where the vampire starts out wanting to be cured, but then decides it's better just to be a vampire and ends up being the villainous bad guy all over again. Of course, in the Lugosi version,

(31:13):
completely evil. um But you did have, as time went on very quickly, a weakening of the vampire character as an arch-terrifying threat. And you see novelty becoming attached to it, just like ah you did with you know Frankenstein and the Wolfman. You'd see vampire of skits on TV.

(31:40):
when tv came into vogue uh... in the forties the the age of the the the the the age of universal horror movies before they go into science fiction and with abbot and costello meet frankenstein where bella logosi reprises his role as dracula but he's just there to be the but of abbot and costello's jokes for the most part along with frankenstein the wolfman uh... this is also the time we have vampira the first TV horror show host who was a vampire character who told corny jokes about the old movies she would show on local affiliate stations. You have the Munsters in 1964 to 1966 with Grandpa and Lily ah as vampire type characters.

(32:23):
um Plus, there was a whole cottage industry of monster toys and comics and model kits and Halloween gear ah that sort of defanged the vampire character, which became, like Frankenstein and the Wolf Man, associated with fun as ah much as they were with fear. And that's really interesting in terms of the vampire character, because Frankenstein and the Wolf Man and the other universal monsters were originally empathetic, pretty tragic figures, and vampires really never were.

(32:53):
in those early movies. um But then along comes Dark Shadows, and Dark Shadows was a soap opera um A Gothic supernatural soap opera that ran from 1966 to 1971 and was a phenomenon. It had six seasons, 1,225 episodes. It was literally the most widely watched soap opera of all time. And this is in the golden age of soap operas. ah If you look it up, it's it's really a ah point in in the history of television.

(33:26):
um But there was a point on that ah show where it was going to be canceled. And the producer Dan Curtis created a character named Barnabas Collins, and I think this was in Episode 211. Barnabas Collins is a yeah um you know an to the estate that the people in Dark Shadows have been fighting over.

(33:48):
He's the rightful heir, but everybody thinks he's a new guy, a newfound relative they didn't know about, who just so happens to look like the, I don't know, three or four hundred year old portrait they have of his ancestor. and In reality, that is him. um He's tragic. ah He's haunted by lost love. He's trying to control his urges and get cured. And he does evil stuff, but there's this idea that there's something redeemable about him. And that spawned a but the The public went crazy. There was a huge amount of merchandising, games, model kits, Halloween, costumes, books, comics, and one of the most like ah devout fandoms, ah early fandoms in the history of TV. Right after that show went off the air, there was another really popular sympathetic vampire, and that was Blackula. And there were two Blackula movies, Blackula and screamed black yellow Scream Scream.

(34:47):
And the vampire in that was played by this Shakespearean trained actor named William Marshall who just oozed dignity and gravitas and charm and tragedy. Blackula was an African prince who'd been turned into a vampire against his will and was trying to reconnect with his lost princess and wanted to be cured of vampirism.

(35:09):
Of course, the next key thing that happens is the publication of Anne Rice's interview with a vampire, 1976, a few years later. And of course, we all know about Twilight and True Blood and what we do in the shadows. um You even have the idea of the vampire as a crime fighter in comics and multiple TV series, ah and the idea that there can be good vampires. We see this on Angel and Buffy.

(35:36):
um So by the start of the 1970s, the idea that sympathetic vampire takes serious root and we're broadening out the functions that vampires serve in this narrative. And the reason I i wanted to go through this is I think it's important to remember that that um narrative was feeding directly into the zeitgeist of its time. It came ah ah in the late 60s and 70s, people are questioning societal conventions around good and evil, civil rights, ah gay rights, living outside systems, hyper individuality, the search for identity, and these are all things

(36:16):
that are very easy to talk about in relation to stuff like Black Yellow and the Munsters and Barnabas Collins and Interview with the Vampire and Twilight and keep going up. um So there's this idea of the vampire that is dominant at any time is usually, ah you know, connected to the zeitgeist. That's why they become popular. um And all these things I mentioned, by the way, were hugely popular.

(36:46):
um But it should be said, of course, that the idea of the evil vampire never really went away. so you know Vampires and Dracula were very much evil creatures as well during this time. You've got the Hammer films from England, which sort of revitalized the Gothic ah just before Dark Shadows appears. And you've got the Count Yorga films about an old world vampire in the new world. Jack Palance and Louis Jordon both star and made for TV ah versions of Dracula that got huge ratings.

(37:17):
And lastly, I'll mention The Night Stalker. It's a TV pilot where a tabloid journalist realizes a vampire named Janos Korzeny, a very old world vampire, is loose in modern day LA. And The Night Stalker was the highest rated TV movie ever for a very, very long time. ah And lately, and i'm going just to and we've had a lot of evil vampires again, 30 days of night.

(37:45):
Evil vampires. Fright Night, 2011, the remake of the 80s film. Colin Farrell is a very evil vampire. Abigail about a very evil little girl ballerina vampire.
The Last Voyage of the Demeter, which takes part of the Dracula story ah in which Dracula is absolutely a monstrous evil thing. Midnight Mass, ah the great miniseries about the vampire um ah that comes into a small town and wreaks absolute havoc. Salem's Lot, which I think that borrowed from a lot, which just got redone this year and released evil vampires.

(38:27):
And it's also worth noting that most vampire comedies have very evil vampires in them that that that that the that that that the the the good guys in those movies they are usually the vampire hunters.
So I think it's interesting to start thinking about this shift back to evil vampires at this point as a dominant motif in narrative. where Where do you think that's coming from, Mike? And sorry, I know that that that took a bit, but you know,

I don't know. You know, i there were a couple that you didn't mention that I thought you would include. um the I think the as you as you kind of were were suggesting that you said that the vampire. Like all film, I think I think I'm a believer that.
art imitates life. I think at least today. um So let's go with that for today. um And I think the the the zeitgeist that you said that it's representing is the the vampire represents he's taking on our fears and trepidations and anxieties of of our era in the era of those who came before us. So if I were to go through your list, I won't suffer you all through that. But if you you go back to the, you know, the 30s and 40s, that's a very, you know, you talked about how there was a

(39:45):
um a monstrous, those were tumultuous days and there was a monstrous vampire that was threatening and foreign and unknown. Those were those were the the era of even Bela Lugosi as foreign unknown and threatening, even though he's suave.

Dave (39:53):
Yeah.
And the weird thing is they advertise that as the strangest love story ever told because it was the first talky horror movie. no ah Nobody knew how to that it wasn't a horror movie. They didn't know horror movies were a thing yet.

So I think you can tie what people are afraid of or what they're fearing or what society is fearing, not necessarily the viewers, but what the society is fearing to the portrayal of um the of of the portrayal of.
the vampire.

Dave (40:38):
yeah

So when you start to see like the ham you talked about the hammer movies, the hammer, the hammer, Dracula's, those are all late fifties, right?

Dave (40:40):
Yeah.

And they are all about sexual oppression.

Dave (40:48):
Yeah, f late 50s and 60s.

So the empire. So the vampire in those films is kind of the burgeoning sexual awakening of what would come in about five to 10 years later.
in bra black blackula i'm kind of struggling to draw that but uh you know it's definitely takes place in the civil rights movement the vietnam war and and that's like kind of everything's mixed up the vampire isn't what we expect both racially and meant mentally um you know one movie that i said there are some of you that i didn't think you would mention i i think one that came to mind with this was uh uh the hunger oh but come on it's day

Dave (41:27):
Oh yeah, you know, Mike, believe me, I was going through lists and I was going, Mike's going to kill me.

Anyway.

Dave (41:32):
I yeah yeah i got to hone this list. The Hunger is such a great vampire movie.

So I think that was the 70s. Boy, I could have had these organized.

Dave (41:43):
That was in the 80s, The Hunger, I believe.

like as So um you're you've got a continuation of the there of the of like hedonism, rebellion, um lost boys.
I don't know if you mentioned that, but also continues along that theme.

Dave (41:59):
Well, the idea of the Lost Boys and Peter Pan and that there can be an alternative lifestyle.

Right.

Dave (42:05):
um Yeah.

In the fear of that, we've got this is the year of the AIDS epidemic and, you know, hair metal because the suburban conformity is kind of being challenged right and left.
You know, people have left the cities in the 60s, but they haven't come back to the city yet in the 80s. So um you've got a lot of David Bowie is the most anti suburban motherfucker out there.

Dave (42:27):
ah

But as you get back as you get into my my my memory, when you start to get into the 90s, Bram Stoker's Dracula interview, with the vampire, those are looming large in that decade, right? um You are getting into kind of a of a of a um a vampire that is exploring their identity.

Dave (42:42):
Yeah.

And it's true.

Dave (42:53):
Yeah.

I read every Anne Rice and vampire book, by the way.

Dave (42:56):
Wow.

that Anne Rice was doing that in 1976 with the first book.

Dave (43:01):
There's 12 of those.

There's 12 of those, and I believe I've read them all.

Dave (43:05):
Wow.

And they don't get better as the years go by, but they're all very fine books. um yeah I won't get on too much. You always want to write more, right? But after you've written 12 books, you're running out of things to write about. So the mythology is getting a little complicated by the end.

Dave (43:22):
i remember but yes

But I still I'm all in for crazy, so I was all into the end. um But by the time you're getting to for talking about film, the interest in making an interview with a vampire in film, Braumstoker's Dracula.

Dave (43:35):
Yes Which it took a long time to get interview made into a film it came out in 76 the movie didn't come out until the It had huge presale rights by the publisher.

Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know what the history of how popular the book got I don't know if it was an instant hitter took some time, um but, you know, like.

Dave (43:55):
I think it was a pretty big hit and it did nothing but grow over time.

So you're getting your grunge vampires by that point. Vampires who are like questioning everything, you know, they're smelling like Teen Spirit. They they are old.

Dave (44:08):
ah ah ah

A lot of their struggles are are personal. And that's I think that reflects the 90s kind of like the Gen X. I don't know what to do that you see in all the movies kind of the of the of that era.
And now the vampires. Oh, my God, even they're going through it. All they had to do was suck blood. um and And but you see.

Dave (44:27):
Go ahead and make baby vampires.

So you still kind of see that repression of desire, which is common in American culture when going on, but you've got the you you've now got the tension of like responsibility and being a moral person that you see throughout all the 90s films, and it's just being moved on to the vampire. Now you have Louis who's ah lo who is ah you know depressed in a house instead of the guys depressed at work in office space. So the vampire is kind of taking on

(44:59):
that in every era.

Dave (45:00):
two I wrote an article a long time ago about interview with a vampire called to wine or dine and It had to do with you know, the kind of double-sided coin that was Lestat and Louie And how Lestat was the hedonistic Creature in that movie anyway given over, you know to the idea of being a vampire ah and the sort of dead end of pleasure and Louie was unable to cope with the fact that as you know as a being, as a sentient being, a human or vampire, he was connected to evil and he did not want to he did not want his life to be about the same things. um And in the book, of course, we see him not being willing to drink blood and very critical of Lestat

(45:56):
um And it's it's very, and in learning a lot of lessons along the way ah to get to the point where we see him sitting with this journalist and talking about what it means to be a vampire. um I really think Anne Rice was ahead of her time. ah um In some way she was picking up on on the groundwork that had been laid before her for sympathetic vampires. But I think that she understood something about the way that people come to culture and what they need from it. And I think that's what the vampire character is, ultimately. It is a way um to ask questions and sort through the human condition and celebrate possibilities, um which is ultimately what all characters are about.

And personally, as we get closer to our time, as we get closer to Nosferatu, I think that Whiny Louie, a potential crisis big vampire, continues well into the 2000s when Twilight and True Blood, you know, horny human vampires, Buffy, of course, horny human vampires who are struggling with the humanity.

Dave (46:58):
Oh, yeah. Glittery vampires. Mm-hmm.

But, but Dave, 2010, 2015, We start to get out of that.

Dave (47:17):
Yeah.

And I think that's because the world is going to shit. We're not anxious anymore about not being able to afford our house. I mean, some of us are. We all are. We're still anxious about that.

Dave (47:26):
Well, yeah.

No, we're actually afraid of real shit again. 20s and 30s style. We are, you know,
I don't know. I'm not being very eloquent here, but I think you what i'm getting it's like our fears are less existential and more direct in as we have increasingly entered into the post 2010 world.

Dave (47:48):
Well, let's face it.

so um

Dave (47:50):
I mean, apocalyptic culture has been our pablum. It has been the thing that we are, you know, our i and imaginations are fed from the earliest age now for about really almost 50 years. um And you do get a lot of different kinds of media, but there is definitely, if you look at the science fiction, at the horror um that's been made in these in in this time, it gets darker and darker and darker. And I mean, The Walking Dead, you think of the things that are on The Walking Dead, the things that they show in terms of the violence,

(48:36):
and the fact that it doesn't even faze people. Because people want to think about social potential social upheaval, nuclear war. um What happens if COVID comes around and it kills everybody who gets it?
you know, all of all of these things. Ebola, I mean meteors, you know, it's just like the History Channel stopped being the History Channel and started being the, you know, 100 different ways the world can end channel.

(49:05):
and i and i And I think that you're seeing, you're seeing us need the right, you said the representation of fears and anxieties. We need to put a face on that evil.
um And.

We will put a face on it. It's the nature of humanity.

Dave (49:21):
Yeah.

Yeah, towards the end at the very late ah tooth in the right before 2010, I think 2010 is about where I feel like we start getting into the I haven't seen any of the movies that reflect this, but not many of them.
But 2010's where we start to like the lonely vampire, the isolated vampire that is afraid the world's going to end. but isolated us that are afraid the world is going to end, starts to go away, the isolation stays.

(49:52):
And I think the very peak, the end of it for me is the very excellent let the right one in. That is the and that is the end of um that is the end of that anxious vampire.

Dave (50:00):
Oh, wow.

I can't think of a movie that's good after that. um

Dave (50:09):
I don't know if I would describe her as an anxious but anxious vampire, but I do think she is, it's all about the anxiety of adolescence.

Mm hmm.

Dave (50:21):
Yeah. Yeah.

Once we get closer to our era, we start seeing the more monstrous return, and I think that does reflect. There's still the feel of isolation.
I think COVID did kind of re-spark some of those fears of, ah you know, the plague is very much present in those ferrato. It's in 1922, which was only four years after the Spanish flu.

Dave (50:45):
Yeah.

ah But here we are four years after COVID. And the plague is once again, you know, we see the rats coming off the ship. They didn't take that out because it is still relevant. So I think that aspect has lingered from the 90s to today. um You know, AIDS went away and then it got replaced by COVID. COVID is not as bad, I don't think, but we seem to have cured COVID at least or have a vaccine for it. But we still have that fear of being of isolation and sickness. But now we also have the fear of our heads being torn off.

(51:16):
ah

Dave (51:17):
Yeah, and it could be your neighbor. um You know, and and this is the thing about vampires is vampires, generally speaking, look like somewhat like a regular person. um And this is where you get the idea of the suave vampire, like again, Colin Farrell in Fright Night. um The Lost Boys, you know, they can look pretty nice and and and hip and cool. and um But then you just realize they're these evil, decaying things. um And I think that there's

(52:02):
You know an interesting thing here about Nosferatu is we don't get a vampire who could be mistaken for anything else but a monster.

Hmm, interesting. Do I agree? I have to think about that because he passes when um he passes when he first meets him.

Dave (52:25):
I don't know if he passes as much as poor Nicholas Holt doesn't have anywhere else to go and he's got a lot riding on the meeting and he probably wouldn't believe.

That's

Dave (52:36):
In all this cha-cha, we've already seen that sort of disbelief that he has in the Romani village that he visits. And that's part of the thing of, in all the Dracula movies, is the guy shows up at his house. ah And there are all sorts of unexplainable things that start to happen right away in the Bela Lugosi Dracula. He walks through a massive spider web.

(52:59):
without disturbing it. um And I think that, you know, we see a lot of weird movement in this, actually in Coppola's Dracula too, ah but in Eggers' Nosferatu, that sort of movement where, you know, ah Count Orlok is one place and then in a blink of an eye, he's somewhere else. um But by the time Nicholas Holt tries to really grapple with what's going on, he's, it's too late.

OK, yeah, the original but while we say about mysterious things, we also talked in a previous episode about we did we have a bet writing on whether like in the in 1922, Orlock would be driving the carriage.
ah The carriage was driving today and and in the 2024 Nosferatu, which I think is is a good it would have been pretty hard to do to have scars guard in the carriage hidden with a cloak.

Dave (53:42):
Oh, yeah.

ah So I think that was a good choice.

Dave (53:56):
No, I think so, too. In the in the original Nosferatu, you do see Orlok in the carriage. um Yeah.

You do.

Dave (54:04):
And ah in, I believe, what?

That's kind of weird. That's kind of weird.

Dave (54:11):
Well, and and it's Orlock, but you can't be, but he hasn't met Orlock yet. And you haven't met Orlock yet, so you don't really know who it is. um But later on, it's the eyes and the that incredible nose ah that Mac Shrek wears in that film. um In this film, yeah, he he's riding off in this in this almost hearse-like carriage pursued by wolves.

So I I loved Orlok's portrayal. um I love the monstrous villainous, pure, evil, unknowable vampire. I think I'm pretty typical of my era or era day.
We're both still alive. um I was getting out you being undead.

Dave (55:01):
and I don't know about how the undead would feel about this at all, but you don't want to get a mad.

You know, they're very sensitive. They're very sensitive.
Well,
Uh, so what, what, what do I think is resonating with me? If I'm like to psychoanalyze myself here, um, what about it is resonating with me? I think there is part of me that just loves evil. There's your sound bite for 2025. Uh, you know, I love myths. I love, um,

(55:36):
I love a great villain. I love pure evil. I love people who struggle against pure evil. You know, I love um no country for old men for that reason because the the the bad guy is just an unknowable evil.

Dave (55:46):
Yeah, the Bardem character.

And I love that. And I think it is a great choice for today that today's Count Orlock has is not a depressed, anxious vampire. It's not a horny, sexy vampire. I think we need to remind ourselves today that Evil is real.
I believe evil is real. And you can contextualize everything. And I think the ending is a very interesting take on how to handle evil. I don't know. It's not on our schedule to talk about, but um the ending leaves open to, you know, ways to deal with it.

(56:23):
But I love that it is a totally unsympathetic, monstrous, unknowable, untamed vampire.

Dave (56:34):
But I think you know something that ah something that occurs to me while I'm listening to you talk is how you know evil ah what is evil and good has been co-opted in this country and ah and and in in large part.

empire

Dave (56:50):
And you know I would say the election of Donald Trump is points to clear moral confusion on the part of a lot of people about what's evil and what's good.
but um When evil is being applied to gay people, trans people, immigrants, um you know any woman that doesn't that that would deign to want to have her own make her own medical decisions or you know might want to be able to get ahold of birth control so that sex isn't dangerous for them, um when that's your definition of evil and you know um sex,

(57:31):
is is that and you know anything earthbound is that you know it's really tempting to take a character like or lock and look at it and go well yeah well he's he's he sleeps in the dirt and he's and he's just his his sense of evil it seems connected to uh filth and decay and um but no that that isn't who or lock is in this movie or lock has misrepresented himself to this a girl played by Lily Rose Depp early in her life and now has a connection to her that she can't do anything about. The connection's made and now she has to decide what she's gonna do about that. um And Orlok will do anything to just, you know, what is it but Van Helsing says about Orlok is

(58:31):
All he wants basically is to destroy. He's like the Joker. He just wants to destroy everything. He just wants to eat everything until there's until there's nothing left. It's the act of destruction that makes him, you know, that gives him meaning. And I think that, that you know, it's very interesting. You know, we have a president who's talking about tearing down our government, you know, firing a bunch of people. um And, you know, having draconian roundups of millions of people in our country. um That to me is very Orlaquian. And a farmer, easy to make a case for that than this other and this other kind of case that that um

(59:25):
really at the end of the day is just about fear mongering and ah you know ah but you know power mongering.

Hmm. Interesting. I was zoning out a little bit there. I mean, I don't know if I see as as many overt over political.

Dave (59:41):
what ah
What did you say? I was laughing.

I don't know if I see as many over like political ah

Dave (59:57):
I got really political, I know.

in and Orlock. I mean, that's all a part of our anxiety. I'm not trying to dismiss it. It is a part of that.

Dave (01:00:06):
But it goes deeper.

Michael Cockerill (01:00:06):
But the two things that that I see in Orlock and I think what makes him a great villain for for now, I talked about that predatory nature. Boy, I'm glad like I like that word, predatory. um And I think a lot of the things that you cited, which are political,
have a predatory instinct behind them of control of nation.

Dave (01:00:24):
Yeah.

So I think he does represent that predatory instinct. But, you know, there's an aspect of of of Orlock and Ellen, who you mentioned and also made me start thinking.

Dave (01:00:36):
played by Lovey Rosedale.

Ellen is is is a very complicated character. um I think the other thing that I was going to say Orlok that characterizes him is his loneliness and isolation. I'm going to say isolation. um Whereas Louis might be lonely, I think Count Orlok is more isolated. And he has that connection with Ellen. um And you see it you you seem to see it as a very one-way connection.

(01:01:06):
like

Dave (01:01:06):
Whoa.

predatory nature. I didn't necessarily see that in the movie. I see Ellen not ah not as sharing in his predatory nature, but sharing in a desire for a deeper spiritual or magical connection with someone that she's not satisfied in many ways by the people she's meeting. When um she tells her husband, you never satisfied me the way he did.

(01:01:31):
and Willem Dafoe's character tells her that, you know, in another era, you might have been a ah Vestal Virgin or something along those lines. are or

Dave (01:01:40):
yeah or a great sorceress or something.

um So she has this thirst for a deeper, more mystical connection, which is kind of I see as a more two dimensional and the um And the the tagline to this movie, Dave, is succumb to the darkness.
And I think what we talked about the end, I think the end. I love that because we don't really get a clear cut resolution. She definitely succumbs, ah ah you know, not not her.

Dave (01:02:09):
Well, would you want What's that like to live deliciously, you know?

She could yes, ah you know, there are themes and in Eggers movies when she comes to the to the She's she's also isolated maybe more on the lonely side, but she's also isolated by her mystical nature like or lock and he's so isolated and upset or
he's grading against his eternal, damned nature, that he wants a connection to her. And the only way that she can sacrifice herself and save everyone is to succumb to that um through the final act of whatever.

(01:02:44):
Some people see a sex, some people see as him just feeding on her. I think I'd have to watch it again to know for sure. I don't didn't get the sense that they were having sex, but it is a sexual type interaction, for sure.

Dave (01:02:55):
Yeah, yeah.

um So it's also something on the other side,

Dave (01:02:57):
Well, it's like a soul. It's like a soul interaction.

Pretty well, they talk to each other a lot. They've got that mystical bond um throughout the throughout the news. But where I was going with that what in terms of the zeitgeist is. Orlock is also a representation of the isolation we feel, the desire for connection, the lack of fulfillment that perhaps we get from fucking Facebook.

(01:03:22):
We want some sort of deeper connection.

Dave (01:03:23):
From the algorithm.

Maybe I'm, maybe even a spiritual connection, Dave. Maybe we can even stretch it that far. People are looking for something greater than has been offered for to them, especially...

Dave (01:03:34):
Well, what's interesting is the male characters in Nosferatu, with the exception of Willem Dafoe, and they're very resistant to the idea of the supernatural.

playing Jaynes. They're uninteresting.

Dave (01:03:50):
um that is That's not part of the real world to them. And Ellen has sort of understood all her life that She is connected.
um to the other world and that that is her true purpose in life. ah And to to to that degree, you think of like, you know, a lot of the female Christian saints, even though Christianity isn't ah specifically invoked in Nosferatu. She is a ah ah person of pure heart who is willing to sacrifice herself for everyone else. um But you know, another Another thing in in horror movies is a lot of horror movies are about convincing the skeptic that the supernatural is real. And um I'm thinking of movies like, you know, there's so many of them, Night of the Demon, ah The Exorcist deals in this, The Omen. um You know, you have like a hard bitten, you know, materialist who doesn't believe in anything beyond what he can see, touch, taste, feel in here.

(01:05:06):
and then suddenly they are confronted. by something supernatural and it yeah deconstructs them, it deconstructs their understanding of the world and they are changed in a positive way. um I don't know what Nicholas Holt's state is at the end of Nosferatu, in reaction to the sacrifice of his wife, um but there's a sense in which

(01:05:41):
something far deeper has gone on than just driving a stake through Orlok's heart.
um
you know And the sunlight and perhaps her innocence, it desiccates him. He he can't he can't survive in it. He can't survive you know the dawn.

(01:06:10):
And um I like, you know, when the original Nosferatu, which I re-watched for this, he just fades away in the sunlight. And it actually happens kind of quickly.
um Here he, you know, he goes through a actually a really cool special effect. As a horror fan, I really i really dug it. But um but yeah.

(01:06:39):
So I think you're right. I think this movie is appealing to... you know We've talked before about, in society, how people often go through life without a lot without a lot of ideas. you know People don't necessarily read books, they don't watch challenging stuff on TV, or you know they don't wait they won't watch foreign film, or they won't do this, they won't do that.

(01:07:09):
They're just sort of creatures of comfort, you know, that, that you know, um and here is a person, Ellen, that doesn't fit, doesn't fit into that world, um where all the roles are defined ah by class and gender and everything else. And um I find it

(01:07:36):
really interesting that corollary between her and Orlok, because that's the beating heart of the movie, is is the reality of Orlok and the hold he has over her.

And if you go back to Ellen's conversations with everyone where she's like in her trance states, where she's walking with her friend that gives her the cross, whose name I cannot recall, um they're all about her not fitting into her life or feeling out of her. there She never says, like, there's this voice from Transylvania calling me. All of her comments are along the lines of,

(01:08:14):
I just don't know what where I fit in into the world anymore. Like she doesn't know relate to her husband.

Dave (01:08:18):
Yeah.

um So I do think like we we sympathize with that isolation today. um My one of my initial reactions to the end was so the woman has to F the monster.
like That was my initial reaction. But. Upon upon further thought, I think. um I like the end. And it is a little bit of a tragedy, and I think. The idea that they can make this evil, the despicable Orlock as sympathetic as he is, because he is a little isolated, at least, um not very sympathetic, but you know, through understanding Ellen, we kind of sympathize through him. um Is ah is is pretty masterful.

Dave (01:09:02):
Well, I mean, you know, they go, it's it's funny because all of the, I'll use the phrase Victorian men just because they're, you know, there's top hats and waistcoats and, you know, people talk in English accents and stuff, but it doesn't necessarily take place in the Victorian era.

i think that's accurate. it's It's the Victorian era.

Dave (01:09:19):
Well, so you've got all these men, right? And, um, the one played by Aaron Johnson, the friend of, uh, Ellen and, uh, ah Lily Rose Depp and Nicholas Holt. He's a he he's a pure materialist. He's he's um you know into cigars and brandy and ah deeply in love with his wife and loves his kids and really believes that all the conventions of society are are there to protect them and are there to you know order the world. That is how the world should be ordered.

(01:09:51):
And Nicholas Holt, you know, takes off to Orlak's Castle at the beginning of the movie, despite the premonitions of that Ellen has. um Because, again, that's what you do, you know, and we'll get a bigger house because I'll earn a big commission off of this and it'll be good and it'll be great. And um the doctor, you know, one of the first things we see the doctor is is he he bleeds her, which, of course, is shorthand in cinema now.

(01:10:21):
for, you know, my God, didn't they have any idea? Didn't they know what they were doing back then? um It just seems like such a primitive practice to us. But even Van Helsing, the Willem Dafoe character, comes to the end of his knowledge. And so none of those things work to restore order to the world.

(01:10:49):
and drive the plague away and, you know, anything else. Ellen is, in her sacrifice and her willingness to do that, is what ultimately checks, ah ah puts check on, on Nosferatu. And that is very much how we live our lives, I think. You know, ah just to to wax very briefly, theological, I think that faith is about the business of living um with your questions and not answering all your questions. that's That's not faith. And these men all think they have answers. And then they are slowly shown that they don't in some of them very tragic ways. um And it is Ellen who surrenders to the mystery who

(01:11:44):
fulfills this great purpose.

Aaron Taylor Johnson was also in Craven this year. ah Just pointing that out.

Dave (01:11:51):
Oh, yes.

He played Craven. We did not review that film.

Dave (01:11:56):
And we're just mentioning that.

Yeah, I'm just just mentioning it.

Dave (01:12:00):
Are we going to tease him because the God that movie was badly reviewed?

ah my um I saw doing an interview the other day, and he barely mentioned Nosferatu. He's only talking about Craven.

Dave (01:12:08):
Well, I'm sure Marvel's all over in the like pump craving because they're going to lose a lot of money.

as
Yeah, probably.
Yes, very, very good film.

Dave (01:12:22):
So what were some films that reminded you of?

ah Yes. um Every Robert Eggers movie, i You can see, I think The Lighthouse is is a film I need to see again. I don't fully understand, but we talk about like that millennial obsession with destiny, with fate, ah tragedy. um You can see that in all of his films. um You kind of brought it up yourself earlier, not necessarily in that lens, but um where you said that the ending kind of mirrors the witch's ending, and that's a tragic, predor preordained, maybe you kicked up against the destiny, but the tragic preordained

(01:13:01):
the preordained ending comes to it, despite your best efforts. um So I think you can see that in all of his films, including the Northmen, the Witch, Northmen, all of them. In The Lighthouse, yes, but it's a little bit more ah spacey.
Um, so definitely all of robert eggers films came to mind Not just because he was directing it but thematically and also the meticulous recreation of a certain era and world Um, I also very much. I don't know what ah other movies I was thinking of, you know I I I can't remember. I so it's been too long since I saw it But um wasn't prepared for the segment. I'm sorry. I got you. I got you a little bit there

Dave (01:13:41):
No, it's okay. I think that... um i I think you mentioned Coppola earlier, and I think that this is and interesting it's an It's an interesting thing.

keeping I did not think of any other vampire movies really at all. um It made me think a little bit of, I don't know, go ahead, I'll let you talk.

Dave (01:14:03):
I wouldn't call Orlok in this movie Lovelorn. um But there is a tradition of Dracula as a creature who's cursed with unrequited love, um always searching, never finding, cursed to live out there you know ah their existence. Bela Bela Lugosi says in Dracula, he says, to die must be you know really glorious. you know it's just like um

(01:14:35):
I think Orlak may even say something like that, although I'd have to go back and and see. It certainly also reminds me of the original Nosferatu and of Werner Herzog's Nosferatu. And for our listeners who haven't seen that, it stars Klaus Kinski and Isabella Gianni and um ah Bruno Gans, who was one of the great actors of the 20th century. And you really, really owe it to yourself ah to see that.

(01:15:04):
And I think you'll find all three movies really complement one another. um But yeah, in a lot of ways, i for me,
You know, this is a really interesting take on this the Stoker material. We know that originally um Florence Stoker sued F.W. Murnau over his unauthorized, ah um what she called, plagiarism of Bram Stoker's book, Dracula, when he made Nosferatu, and the court ordered all the prints to be destroyed.

(01:15:43):
And so it's a bit of a minor miracle that this film exists in a good state that it does. um Also brings up questions of intellectual copyright and, huh, you know, like, but but at the same time, we're 100 years later, so I don't care, I'm watching it. But I think that there's also a sense in which, a sense in which It just points back to the timelessness of of the concerns in this film. um Our world has been through a lot in the last 10 years, and we are all worried about the next 10. A lot of us are. I think almost all of us are. ah And this is a movie for our time.

Okay. That's yeah, I mean, yeah yeah yeah, sure. I like it. I like it. Well, what there's always more to say.

Dave (01:16:50):
always

So if you would like to argue with us or reach out to us, you can go to our mind frames website. Of course, that's mindframesfilm dot.com. We will never have the mindframes.com yeah URL.
Don't go there. It costs like $250,000. I will never pay that much.

Dave (01:17:06):
But if somebody wants to buy it for us,

Yeah, if you want to buy it for us, go ahead. You can also ah send us a message on Facebook dot com slash mind frames movies. We're there. Of course, we are still on the now playing network. You can find all of our latest episodes linked up on there at now playing network dot net.

(01:17:30):
Our next episode will probably be best of 2024, but I have seen some of the best ones.

Dave (01:17:36):
Mm.

I haven't seen Flo, the Brutalist.

Dave (01:17:40):
Oh.

I got a nose.

Dave (01:17:41):
Well, that was a Golden Globes highlight for me that I heard about was Flo winning animation. i we That's the same movie we gave the animation award to the CFCA.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of, it's been very roundly ah applauded as a great film. And i even my non-animation, ah enthused ass will get out there to go see it.

Dave (01:18:02):
It's a great year for animation. I'm and i'm glad that we recognized it.

I mean, yeah, i love you know, we cover animation here. We we do animation movies. It's just um not always the first thing I reach to. It's just in my personal taste. But when I hear of a great movie like Flo or Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse, we will cover it, of course.

Dave (01:18:19):
and have done.

um So that'll probably be our next episode once I get caught up. And you've seen The Brutalist, right, Dave?

Dave (01:18:27):
I've seen The Brutalist. That might warrant an episode. ah The Wolfman, which we are going to see, I believe, on the 14th at a press screening. um you know Universal just leaked.
a look at the full makeup for the Wolfman, which is a very unusual tactic. And people are saying that they did it because there was another leak of some material. And so they thought they'd better get out ahead of it and try to market it. But you know usually, werewolf movies are marketed with kind of being coy about what the Wolfman is going to look like, um because that's sort of the fun, is is waiting for the transformation and waiting to see you know how is so-and-so going to reinterpret this monster.

(01:19:14):
But yeah the makeup looks great. I thought, um' umm um I'm enthusiastic, but I'm cautious. um Partly because of when the film is getting released. It's getting released in January. um So Mike will see it and I guess we'll have to see what we think.

Yeah, we might do that. We got some other options. We'll probably do that in early February. um Yeah, I can commit to Wolfman. I'm committing.

Dave (01:19:43):
Okay.

Want to do it, even if it's bad. I don't think it would be bad.

Dave (01:19:46):
Even if it's... i'm Yeah, and I think it's worth talking...

We both liked Invisible Man a lot.

Dave (01:19:51):
Oh, i loved we both loved Invisible Man. And wouldn't it be great for somebody to finally get the retool of the classic movie monsters right? I mean, like, you know, Guillermo del Toro is doing Frankenstein.
I desperately need that movie to be really good because it's Frankenstein and it's Guillermo del Toro and i Oscar Isaac.

and oh man that's pardon

Dave (01:20:16):
and you know

You had me at Oscar Isaac now Dave when the Invisible Man You said that you thought maybe they're gonna make a sequel where she goes out and uses the Invisible Man suit to like become a superhero if she is in this movie Dave as like a Superhero with the Invisible Man suit.

Dave (01:20:32):
ah

I will I will buy you I will good drink i Don't think that's gonna happen

Dave (01:20:40):
Yeah, I think Uncle Dave might have gotten into the gummies or something. I don't know what that was.

I wouldn't be the first time.

Dave (01:20:46):
I don't use gummies. I just, you know, I just make the joke.

All right.

Dave (01:20:50):
But yeah, I, we have hopes. It's lay one L. Um, and, and, uh, Blumhouse is really investing in this one. They, they really want it to be, um, to work and universal really wants it to work.
Let's keep our fingers crossed. 401 01:21:09,03 --> 00:31.00 Michael Cockerill

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Mindframes Episode: Robert Eggers’ Nosferatu

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 84: Nosferatu