Mindframes – Episode 88: The Monkey (2025)

Episode Transcript
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Michael Cockerill (00:18):
Welcome to Mind Frames, a sometimes half-assed but always wholehearted film conversation. I'm here, I'm with you, I'm Michael Cockerell, and with me as always is our other host.

Dave (00:29):
Dave Canfield.

And today, Dave, we are talking about a movie. What movie is it that we are talking about?

Dave (00:35):
We are talking about Osgood Perkins newest film, The Monkey.

Yep, this movie is an adaptation of Stephen King's 1980 short story of the same name. And Osgood, Oz Perkins, he's known for his work in the horror or genre.
um Just last year, he i didn't i missed it, but he had the very ah widely acclaimed Long Legs. He's pumping them out. um And it's received a lot of buzz for its atmospheric storytelling. And I know you you liked it a lot in the monster creation, I believe in it.

(01:09):
ah Before that, he did Hansel and Gretel, also didn't see that, and Black Coat's Daughter. um So he's mainly only made horror movies. But today were talking about The Monkey, as I said. And it's I would classify this more in the comedy genre.
It's definitely got horror elements to it, Dave. But I know you loved Long Legs last year. It was in, I think, your top 20 at least. um What do you think about Osgood, Oz, Perkins, and how he's just making tons of movies? And we know he's got another one lined up.

Dave (01:39):
Yeah, I got to interview Oz Perkins back when The Black Coat's Daughter was called February, and he struck me as an uncommonly intelligent um and um just all-around nice person. um I enjoyed talking to him, and I was surprised to hear him talk about The Black Coat's Daughter as a film about grief. His mother, ah in real life, hu excuse me was on one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.

(02:12):
um And when he started to talk about that, and I started to think about ah February, of course, The Black Coat's Daughter is what it's called now. I saw that, yeah, I could totally see how that is.
And I realized what a masterstroke The Black Coat's Daughter was, um how difficult what he had done ah in that film was. And his other films, I Am the Pretty Thing That Lives in a House, Gretel and Hansel,

(02:39):
and long legs um our have all gotten you know progressively better. I think that the monkey could have been a throwaway, like you said. I mean, long legs just came out.
I found that film terrifying. um And this film is his tackling of comedy. The original Stephen King short story, ah The Monkey, in 1983 from Skeleton Crew's collection of short stories, isn't um really a very funny story. It's it's pure King Dread.

(03:15):
ah This adaptation of it is very funny, so funny, that I can understand you wanting to call it more of a comedy than a horror film. I'd probably flip that.
But um in in in either case, it's one of the most interesting adaptations of a Stephen King movie i' or book or story I've ever seen.

Perkins himself said that the success of Long Legs, he told this to Vanity Fair, i said that the the success of that enabled him to do new things. He said, quote, it changed everything and nothing. And I take that to mean that he felt free to try go into a new direction.
The Monkey is pretty much a new direction. Like i said, I haven't seen previous films, but um going by what he told Vanity Fair, and I think He's definitely gone a new direction, and it's I found it a very ah you know entertaining film. I definitely related more to the humor element of it.

(04:10):
um I didn't really feel that afraid. um You know, in the story itself, i didn't I haven't read the Stephen King short story. Boy, I'm not prepared. But what do you do? But... um I can't help but think there's some element of absurdity when it's a monkey that kills people, a toy monkey. But, you know, maybe i there's some layer of absurdity on there.

Dave (04:33):
Oh, sure. Really?

help Now that we're talking about the monkey, you know, I read this and I found this fascinating. In the short story, Dave, the monkey bangs a cymbal as they traditionally do. um Toy monkeys usually bang cymbals like in the musical Phantom of the Opera, right?
But there was some sort of rights issue where it was too similar to a Disney character and Disney was threatening to sue them.

Dave (05:00):
really

So this monkey plays a drum. um But I forgot which which character was.

Dave (05:06):
ah Me too.

Some good trivia. yeah um

Dave (05:10):
I think the drum works better in some ways.

Well...

Dave (05:13):
It's more visual. And of course, you know, we see the top of the, if you've seen the wonderful popcorn bucket that was made for this film, which is the monkey holding the drum with his, you know, poised to start banging on it.
The drum head on the top is all blood spattered. So it's a wonderful, wonderful little collectible thing if you're into that kind of thing from the monkey.

ah wi Wikipedia says a symbol playing monkey design had been prominently featured in Disney's Toy Story 3, leading to tent to two potential legal constraints.

Dave (05:41):
Oh, that's crazy. Like anybody's going to confuse these two movies.

Well, you know, they're very sensitive over there at it at Disney.

Dave (05:50):
They are.

So it sounds like you have a pretty positive opinion of Oz.

Dave (05:58):
Yeah, I really enjoy him.

ah

Dave (05:59):
I think that, um, we have been blessed with, uh, up and coming horror directors, Robert Eggers and, Ari Aster. And, uh, we just recently had alien Romnus with Chris Fetty Alvarez, who's continued making great movies.
Um, and we had the, uh, we, we, we had the, uh, there was another one. and It's escaping me. Uh, Oh, talk to me from, uh, from that pair of ah of filmmakers that I think are brothers. And they have a new movie coming out this year as well.

(06:32):
um So, man, always happy to see a filmmaker only make good movies. And that's exactly what this is to me. It's it's it's it's a solid, solid film.

Great. Let's talk about some of the... Who's in this movie?

Dave (06:52):
You know what?

You've got... Yes.

Dave (06:54):
I didn't know anybody in this movie.

Ah, I was about to say something on those lines. You've got some TV people. um You know, famous people, but not necessarily A-listers. Not A-listers, except for perhaps one. Um...
ah Theo James, he's done some work in the Divergent series, haven't really seen it. He was in Sandition. ah he He has a dual role here.

(07:20):
ah he plays both Hal and Bill. ah They're twins, so conveniently he doesn't have to look different. He doesn't have to put on a mustache or anything. um Though he does kind of change his appearance between the two, doesn't he?

Dave (07:31):
Yeah.

He plays the adult versions of them, I should say. um he is the lead and oof i love this performance dave we get to see different you know for i have like so much cognitive space created by the performance that i really saw hell and bill like i i didn't even recognize how they're the same person because well they have a great wardrobe and makeup department but it's just the performance and the mannerisms are um so so different and and i think that's really showing a uh um great actor in Theo James, who I wasn't familiar with ah as well.

(08:06):
um But I thought that was and a standout performance.

Dave (08:09):
Yeah, um and and it's funny because the young actor that plays the twins when they're young, again, one one performer, equally

Christian Convery, yeah.

Dave (08:21):
equally good performance. And a lot of, I don't know, I think that kid's going places. I think that there's some real persona up on the up on the screen. yeah You remember him from the film.
Yeah.

He plays Gus in the in the Netflix series Sweet Tooth, but yep, still pretty early in his career.

Dave (08:43):
Yeah, and of course the of course the person who plays the um the son of one of the older brothers is also very, very good in this film.

Son of one of the older brothers.

Dave (08:58):
Remember, he's reconnecting with his son and they go on the trip together.

Ah, yeah, the Ricky is his name, right?

Dave (09:05):
Yes, I believe so.

ah Yeah, that's Rowan Campbell.

Dave (09:07):
No. Ricky? No. Petey? Pete?

Petey, maybe you're right.

Dave (09:12):
Yeah. So, um wonderful stuff. There is one cameo that we haven't mentioned. Do we want to save that for the spoiler section?

Yeah, that well, I already said there's an A-lister. I mean, Elijah Wood, is is this a cameo? I guess it's a cameo. or He's playing a role here. He kind of plays the obnoxious good dad to Petey.
ah the guy who's filling in Hal's place. um

Dave (09:37):
No, no, I'm talking about another character.

Or am I backwards?

Dave (09:40):
I'm talking about another character, but you're right. that This would be a second one.

All right. All right. Who are you talking about?

Dave (09:47):
Okay. um I believe his name, he's from ah the show Parks and Rec. He's been around a while. um He's also on a hugely popular show right now called Severance.
And that would be Adam Scott. Is that his name?

Yeah.

Dave (10:08):
Yeah, and he has a really fun role right at the beginning as the beleaguered owner of the monkey who's desperately trying to get it off his hands. And we find out later he is the father of ah of the twins.

Oh yeah. i

Dave (10:27):
But you were talking about...

Does that count as a cameo? Does that count as a cameo? That's just playing a role.

Dave (10:32):
i guess maybe he's just playing a role. um We don't see him again.

I thought you were going to tell me I missed Brad Pitt or something in the movie. Are

Dave (10:41):
But the other cameos even or cameo or short role is even better. You want to say who that was?

you talking about Elijah Wood?

Dave (10:49):
Yeah, i always love to see Elijah up on screen.

Very interesting ah portrayal of kind of like the that obnoxious have it all but still kind of a loser dad. um His last name's Hammerman.

Dave (11:00):
Yeah, like the expert in parenting, and he has the book, and he's surrounded by his own book and his little trophies he's won.

And you get the idea that he's more of an expert in the idea of parenting and marketing books about parenting than parenting itself.

Dave (11:14):
Absolutely.

um

Dave (11:14):
Yeah.

I think one of the, you know, this movie has great sight gags. um We just saw Mickey 17, which also has great sight gags. But the one of the bit great sight gags in this film is that ridiculously huge water bottle that Elijah Wood's character drinks out of. What is it about what is it about um a certain type of self-help person It's always hydrating.

(11:38):
I'm sure he has like a, a, a, we has like a standing desk with a um treadmill underneath it as well. ah

Dave (11:46):
Well, you know, Elijah's so tiny, maybe that was a regular water bottle, and it just happens to look that way when he puts it in his hands.

Yeah.

Dave (11:53):
No, I don't think so. It's it's a really giant

You know, you know, Dave, I drink, um I drink a double shot on ice. That's two shots of espresso ah with shaking with ice on it. Do you know what Elijah Wood drinks twice a day for his drink?

Dave (12:05):
What? I don't.

It's it early in the morning and then he gets another one in the afternoon if if his he's still on the same routine. Five shots on ice.
so

Dave (12:16):
Well, you know that Elijah is always at Fantastic Fest. And so I've interviewed him three or four times, um been able to hang out at a couple of things he was hanging out at.
He's a cool guy. Yeah. and really loved by people in Austin. But he um is, ah ah that surprises me because I know even now he's a new dad.

(12:38):
um who He started talking more about his wife and and they have a young child. So maybe he needs the five shots. But the thought of that body trying to absorb five shots of of anything is like, wow. Wow.

um Maybe, you know, this is four or five year old information, so maybe it's he doesn't anymore, but that was accurate as of four or five years ago.
I forget who plays Petey, Dave. If you know...

Dave (13:09):
the the actor. Let me look that up. but i didn bi down

You know sometimes I don't always make the best notes. um

Dave (13:16):
Is

I also thought we were talking about a different movie today, but that was fun. And you know there's another someone else I want to mention, and I'm not a big fan of theirs, but you can't ask me, Dave.

Dave (13:23):
it Colin O'Brien?

I just said I don't know. i can't confirm.

Dave (13:28):
It's Colin O'Brien. I have confirmed.

Okay, Colin O'Brien.

Dave (13:33):
And

i what He hosted the Oscars this year, right? No, no.

Dave (13:38):
ah

Look, I don't want us this to seem oversight, but Tatiana Maslany is in here, too.

Dave (13:43):
Wow.

She's won an Emmy for Orphan block Black. She's been, you know, uh, in Marvel movies. Uh, I, I think she's, ah she's, she's not in Marvel movies. She's in She-Hulk. I'm sorry.
As a, like She-Hulk's friend, I believe. Uh, or maybe she's She-Hulk.

Dave (14:01):
wild

Anyway, other people like her, but I'm not as familiar with her. So I wanted to get shower out. She plays aunt Lois.

Dave (14:06):
you know, Conor O'Brien played young Timothee Chalamet in Wonka, which is interesting because Osgood Perkins, whose dad was Anthony Perkins, who famously played ah Norman Bates, he played norman a young Norman Bates, and I believe it was Psycho II, as I recall.

Um,

Dave (14:31):
But I'm going double-check that. Was it Psycho II?
ah Yes, Psycho 2. Very, very, very interesting. Very similitude there.

you're You lost me on the 10 degrees of Kevin Bacon there, but it seemed like there was some sort of connection.

Dave (14:52):
they both They both played the sons of main characters, or the younger versions of main characters.

um
oh
cinematography in this film yeah you know i don't i was trying to think when i was writing gonna write the word review for this was trying to think who do i give credit to those great death scenes i think one of the standout aspects of this film are the um over the top death scenes that is what really makes this movie fun and uh i i i was was aghast to learn that um dave had never seen a million ways to die in the west which also features a lot of uh

Dave (15:24):
Thank you.

um in that point, random death scenes where they're you can always, you know, they're coming in this movie, but also great comic effect there. But ah who do I give credit to that? The cinematographer is Nico Aguilar, also the cinematographer on Long Legs.
um I think this is a collaborative effort as all films are, but ah you know, we got to give Oz a little bit of a mise-en-scene setup and direction and writing credit and the actual capturing of the events to Nico Aguilar.

(16:04):
So it's like kind of hard to say, this is the genius that did this. And great set design as well, putting those prop props together to cause the deaths.

Dave (16:09):
Well, and I mean, obviously you've got to give, obviously you've got to give the special effects guy, guys major credit on this and us, we are bad.
We do not have that information at our fingertips at this moment. Um, I could go ahead and look that up on IMDB, but the, uh, The special effects in this movie, man, they're over the top.

(16:34):
I mean, the death scenes. I've heard this movie compared to Final Destination as well. um It's that kind of death. It's just ridiculous.

Interesting. um And by special effects, you're not talking about CGI, because there is not a ton of there's not a ton of obvious CGI in this. um

Dave (16:58):
Yeah, there's just there's just a little. There's a lot of visual effects in the film, but I don't think that there's a um a ton of CGI used in any of the kills. um Basically, the special effects coordinator was Greg Pine, and ah Greg Pine did an amazing job on this film. He's worked on some really big stuff.

(17:22):
And he was assisted by Catherine Gordon, who um did most of the buying to make sure they had what they needed to make the special effects work in this film. But the visual effects, there's a huge long list of those for the film.
And it is it is interesting because the only the only death stuff that's a little sketchy for me as far as how it impacted me was some of the stuff that was more CGI-ish.

(17:47):
David Daley, all done really, really well and the practical effects in the film are hysterically funny any body parts are flying everywhere um they do just about everything to the human body, you can imagine.

yep they i i liked it quite a bit i liked that i thought it yeah if you're referring to like the hornets close up on them not really looking like hornets and uh you know

Dave (18:14):
yeah.

You can't use real animals these days.

Dave (18:17):
Can't use real hornets for sure.

Not that a hornet... It's horrible working with a hornet. They never take direction either. So CGI is probably much better. you like that one day, wow.

Dave (18:26):
was good. Yeah, there were a couple of the blood splashes.

Um...

Dave (18:29):
Blood is used a lot in effects these days, and I understand why. It's easier to control if you're doing CGI blood or whatever. um Here, I didn't think it was necessary. I really wish I would have just seen full-on CG or full-on practice.

Oh yeah, I mean, who's paying for this movie? Let's do reviews. Okay, we've already kind of done reviews. um But um i'll I'll start. it' like it It is a movie worth seeing. um I don't think you'll grow as a person.
The characters don't really grow. They start, you know... um

Dave (19:03):
You won't grow as a person.

What did I say?

Dave (19:08):
You said you won't grow as a person. That was great.

Yeah, you're probably not going grow as a person here. it It's a movie that's very fun. The over-the-top effects pair nicely with an incredible performance.
um yeah And the performance I'm talking about is Theo James, as I mentioned earlier, in a great dual role. It's a kind of like a buddy road comedy, only they stay in one town.

Dave (19:37):
if

It's a road comedy of death with a with a with a evil demon monster.

Dave (19:39):
I'm glad he empowers him these

ah So I think it's well worth seeing and it's a lot of fun. i don't find it particularly scary. i didn't I wasn't scared at all at any point in the film. um but ah so if you're looking for that, which is surprising because of the reputation Longlegs has, but it's a definitely, a it's a swerve off the road. And um even at the end of the film, Dave, you know they kind of say they learned nothing.

(20:07):
ah We do have like, I do have some ideas about topics we can talk about for this film, but the characters even, I don't think this is spoilery, but the characters at the end kind of even acknowledge they didn't learn anything except, except perhaps had to deal with the monkey better.

Dave (20:20):
Well, they didn't solve the mystery. Yes, which is very important, I think, in understanding what this film is about.

Yes.
um
Yeah. So I, I know we talked and you said you thought the characters grew a little better, but they grew a little bit, but not too much, you know, um that's fine.

Dave (20:38):
Yeah, I would agree.

The good guy was the good guy. The bad guy was a bad guy. i hope that's not spoilery. And the monkey was just evil. Incarnate. ah Evil um death incarnate, you know.

Dave (20:52):
The background...

And that's, I think and think you should see it.

Dave (20:55):
Yeah. but And in my review is basically the same as Mike's. um You know, in when we talk about horror comedy... You're talking about movies like Return of the Living Dead.
um And, you know, Return the Living Dead is a movie that never scared anybody, but it's full of guts and gore and zombies. um This is kind of the same thing. It's a tiny bit less tongue-in-cheek than that.

(21:20):
um It does a lot of shadowy ah lighting and a lot of close-ups of the monkey. And the monkey is a creepy little thing. um But the...
life that they drag out of that concept. We often talk about movies being either situations or or what, Mike's stories?

A story or a situation?

Dave (21:44):
missing a little bit more of ah of a This is a little bit more of a situation than a story.

Oh my gosh, Dave.

Dave (21:52):
There's some story in it that's really, really well done. And that's really what differentiates itself as well from Oz Perkins' earlier work. Black Coat's Daughters considered a horror masterpiece.
And ah that was made in 2015. ah Long Legs is being heralded but by a lot of people. Not everybody loved it, but but a lot of people really did love it.

(22:14):
um And, you know, he's known for doing these really stylish, wonderful, um I hate the term art house horror, but I guess he could sort of talk talk about the films and in that way if you if you wanted to.
um This is that turn in the road. This is proof that Oz Perkins is not just a one trick pony, for sure.

(22:39):
um And I would say also his new movie, Keeper, which also has Tatiana, Maslany in it is due to come out in October. It's a horror film. I would imagine it might have some doses of comedy in it, given the situation that it's about.
But a man, pumping them out, Mike, like you said, amazing.

People don't do that as much anymore. He did write this film, Dave, and it's interesting you note that it's such a turn from Long Legs, which I haven't seen Hansel and Gretel. I hesitate to comment on this because I haven't seen them.
But it seems to me that those films really had a psychological dread aspect to them. And I didn't get this from the monkey.

(23:24):
um So I don't know. but that So did he just not, did he fail and to make the monkey dreadful? Or I didn't feel like it was a failure. I felt like it was meant, intended to be funny and over the top.

Dave (23:34):
no i mean

And hey, yeah kind of showing a um new style of writing that he's capable of doing, you know.

Dave (23:45):
i mean

Let's listen to the trailer and let me ambush Dave with the topic of discussion.

(24:26):
I think that's enough.

Dave (24:27):
Yeah, that's enough.

You get the idea.

Dave (24:29):
Oh my gosh, I'm laughing at it just listening to it.

It was a monkey. No, come on. that that That's not real dread. No one's trying to real dread on that. um

Dave (24:36):
Although, that's what he's known for. All those other movies you mentioned, all the other movies he's done are dread heavy.

I know. Strange.

Dave (24:44):
And this is this is more fun. This is more outright just fun.

So Perkins, Oz Perkins, he's 51. So I can't go on a rant about millennial, how he's a millennial and all millennials have this.
But we can talk about something that keeps coming up, especially in, you you compared it, you mentioned Ari Asner. His films have this some element in them a lot. And that is the idea of generational trauma coming back to haunt us this is coming up in so many horror films what is going on america we just did the wolf the wolfman we just did the wolfman right where the dad has a secret and

Dave (25:32):
Yeah.

The son can't handle it. And oh, no, is he going to end up like the dad? So, OK, here we go again. the the The idea that our fathers usually are passing down something harmful and unwanted inheritance to us that we're not asking for comes back later in life.
Our unresolved childhood drama peeks its head through and we have to resolve it now as adults and possibly fathers ourselves. In fact, in this film and as in The Wolfman, the wolfman, the fathers are attempting not to pass on this ah generational trauma, this unwanted inheritance to their children, and they have to reckon with it.

(26:16):
They have to break it on. So this is the subject, David, that I am foisting upon you, which I did not prepare you at all for.

Dave (26:22):
This is a great subject. ah And you didn't get you didn't mention hereditary, but I think anybody that was listening to you will ah will also think of that.

um But I think it's one you're in good territory with.

Dave (26:34):
ah The Smile series is based in trauma. I don't know if you'd call it exactly family trauma all the way. But there's definitely family dynamics in it that are very important.
And I just think that we're, yeah, we're at this weird place with horror, this sweet spot, if you will, where so many really good, worthwhile films are about that Talk to Me would be another one that delves into family trauma um and the tragedy of not being able to let go.

(27:06):
I think there's um that's what's interesting to me about this movie is that Yeah, it's more of a situation in some ways than it is a story, but it's it does root itself in in exactly that. It's interested in how um we deal with things we can't do anything about.

(27:30):
Yeah.

and I'm glad you said that because the ending of the monkey is very interesting.

Dave (27:35):
Oh, yes, it is.

We're in the spoiler section. um In some of the films, I think the though the not so good ones, yeah I think in the, yeah some of the less sophisticated films, the generational trauma is subdued or conquered in the Wolfman.
You kind of have that, you know, it just needs to be put away. without getting into spoilers of that. um In Hereditary, it is kind of inevitable and it's going to happen no matter what. But what's very interesting in this movie, and I think...

(28:10):
is ah smart is that the trauma can't be thrown away. You can't throw the you throw the monkey down the well, the the monkey will come back up. You have to deal with the trauma.
And so Petey and his dad accept the monkey, the violent nature of the monkey. They put it in the car with them and they're just going to keep it close. And I think what a poignant way to if you're kind of reading that analogy of the monkey is a generational trauma,

Dave (28:34):
Yeah.

What a poignant way to end the film. um And also a little terrifying. I mean, it's not as terrifying as Hereditary because, well, Hereditary is the scariest movie ever, but I love that ending.

Dave (28:49):
Well, because because nothing is terrifying, it's predatory.

I think it's a great ending.
The forces in Hereditary are even more evil than the monkey.

Dave (28:56):
Yeah.

It's hard to believe because fewer people die. The monkey, you know, the monkey is, the monkey has rules, you know, the forces of evil and Hereditary don't.

Dave (29:06):
Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, the end of this movie, when they had that scene where there the the the the dad and the son are in the car and you realize there's been a little bit of a needed reconciliation there, that they're on a good road.

(29:27):
But that good road includes the monkey. They don't get to leave the monkey behind. They stop trying to leave the monkey behind. And so if you think that it represents family trauma, if you think that it also represents death, I think you're on on good footing.
And since we're in so spoiler territory, let's talk about the elephant in the room or the or the horse in the room that's part of the end of the monkey.

I don't know what to make of that.

Dave (29:58):
Yeah, weird.

ah

Dave (29:59):
weird

and say there is the the The Horseman of Death does a pete make an appearance, and I think that is a nod to them accepting death as a part of life. um I don't know if that fits in.
You definitely could talk about the theme of accepting death. I don't know if that fits in with the theme of the generational trauma, but... If the monkey is death and somehow related to the generational trauma, then it makes sense. But I think that's a separate theme would that could be had, could be talked about.

(30:29):
I'm not as interested in it.

Dave (30:31):
Okay, so, no.

I'm not trying to shut it down, but...

Dave (30:33):
Well, so we get also the school bus at the end, and we have seen the cheerleaders in the town, or self-appointed cheerleaders, showing up, uniforms and pom-poms and all, to cheer as bodies are taken out of houses,
And the town is sort of in love with its little bit of celebrity that people keep dying in the town.

Mm-hmm.

Dave (30:56):
It's really weird. It's kind of a commentary, I think, on our reality TV culture that's really out of touch with reality in general.
And um we see the school bus full of cheerleaders. We see all them get decapitated by a an 18-wheeler that zips by the school bus.

(31:20):
It's a wonderfully graphic.

Well, that's obviously a reference to hereditary. I'm kidding, it's not.

Dave (31:25):
so It's a reference to, there's another movie called Tag that was real famous ah for having that same image or a similar image a couple of years ago with a school bus.

Oh my god, you're...

Dave (31:36):
But yeah, what do you make of the townspeople and all that weird brouhaha?

ah to To me, the um this the cheerleaders full of skill school bus, I was thinking of two want things.

Dave (31:46):
And it's

One, I was thinking of Renfield because it also has a school bus of full of cheerleaders that driving around during the movie.

Dave (31:52):
true.

But deeper and more deeply, I was thinking we are the – I think that's kind of a poking fun at us, the viewer. We are the school people cheering on the deaths, right? Because we love the we love the harpoon.
We love the bowling ball. but We love all – yes, yes. And I think that's us. I think that's just kind of a nod to us. Um, a fun, you know, this movie, every movie has three endings now, and this is one of the many endings, but I think that's a commentary on us.

(32:21):
Uh, it just a little, just a little joke at us to have one final bloody kill and also kind of, uh, you know, say, look, we're laughing at death. You shouldn't probably be laughing at death. It could hurt you.

Dave (32:35):
Yeah, it's it's, you know, there was this guy who used to make movies that had gimmicks. His name was William Castle, and he did The House on Haunted Hill, and they would play a skeleton on a guy wire over the film because the skeleton was part of the film.
um There was another film, The Tingler, where they set the monster literally loose in the theaters. You can read about how that was done and literally shot the living hell out of the audience ah that first watched that movie.

(33:01):
And in that movie, the Tingler escapes into the audience in a movie theater. um And that sort of experience of filmmaking you know really impacts um or finding films like that when you're or you're a kid really impacts people.
And I miss the ballyhoo. I miss the time when you know you kind of broke the fourth wall a little bit to let the audience know that um that you know that they're there and that they don't get off the hook.

(33:35):
um That it's okay to love you know scary movies, but at the end of the day, scary movies are about things we probably ought to be scared about. And um the things we're scared of in the monkey are things that happen to people. So ah there might not be a monkey involved in those things, but um I thought that was a really idea.
well handled element in the film. yeah and I did not expect to see the ah one of the apocalyptic horsemen and neither did I expect to see all the people in that school bus die. It was it was really fun.

I don't have a strong opinion on the apocalyptic horseman, but at the same time, it does, it is ah it is a weird, doesn't really fit in tonally with the rest of the film.

Dave (34:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's weird.

um maybe Maybe it's an attempt to inject seriousness in that moment of um understanding, but I don't not like it, but it, does to me, it's saying something tonally that I don't fully get.
Yeah. I could go on about that, but I'll tell you, there are some visual things in this film, Dave, along the themes that we're talking about that I thought were great choices.

(34:44):
And i want to say something, too. have a sore throat. I mean, I'm just a little off, as I have been the last couple episodes. But...
There's a character in the film who doesn't really belong, even more so than ah the the the Horseman of Death. And that is, ah I think I said his name earlier, Ricky, right?

(35:07):
He's got long hair.

Dave (35:07):
Yeah, Ricky, the guy who...

um In my headcanon, Dave, I just want to say he is the son of Hal or Bill.

Dave (35:15):
You think that there's a secret.

All right.

Dave (35:17):
Ricky is the son of the...

I just can't. I can't. I can't think of any reason why he would be it's so important to the movie if he's not the son of Bill. It just totally makes sense. Nonetheless, we'd have no confirmation.
This is a crazy theory, but there's something when it gets confirmed, I'm going to take all the points, but um I just feel like he's the son of Bill.

Dave (35:31):
Yeah.

And the one of the reasons I think that is, we're talking about the generational trauma and what is the specific generational trauma that I think is here that is hinted at. And that is,
absentee fathers.

Dave (35:52):
yeah

Hal is an absent father. His father was an absent father. And um

Dave (35:58):
And in a way, Elijah Wood in this movie is also an absent father because, like you said, he's an expert on parenting. He's not really that interested in being a parent.

so he isn't really, you're right, he's interested in he's interested in being seen as an expert on parenting. he's I don't know if I have enough to say about his character, but

Dave (36:20):
Oh, I know.

And the thing about, I brought Ricky in because his dad also has a costume, a uniform, uniform slash costume in the closet.

Dave (36:31):
Yes.

And Hal and Bill's dad has a costume in the closet.

Dave (36:33):
all

um So to me, it's just like, there has to be something there. um Either he's literally the son of Hal, which I think makes a lot of sense, or there's so some sort of kinship through experience.
Um,

Dave (36:49):
I wish I was here to ask because would be interesting if that was in an earlier screenplay, wouldn't it?

yeah i think it's a very very you know either way it works but i think in my head canon he's he's the son of of hal um and and the dad disappears without explanation i i think these are very interesting elements tied to the monkey that we never get explained just like we don't really get explained um

Dave (37:03):
Well, you know what? Oh, go ahead.

but how the monkey works or what the monkey does. We don't get explained what happens to the dad. And Petey for a long time doesn't get an explanation of what happens to um his his dad, Bill.

Dave (37:35):
Yeah.

I'm sorry, Hal. um Now, Ricky's mom tells him that his dad's probably under a horror somewhere, I think she says.

Dave (37:43):
yeah and that he But we do know he was a policeman.

Yeah.

Dave (37:46):
And that's the only thing that pokes a hole in your your theory, is that we know that the evil twin was not a... He wasn't really a policeman. um

I thought about that.

Dave (37:59):
Yeah, what do you think?

We know there's a policeman's uniform in the closet and we know that the mom thinks he was a policeman.

Dave (38:06):
We know that Ricky thinks that that uniform was his dad's.

But I think there's a little bit to suggest that both Ricky's dad and Howland Bill's dad were not 100% what they claimed to be. um

Dave (38:21):
That's interesting.

But that that um maybe I'm going too far with that, but there's just something that about their stories that doesn't add up. There always have to be a way and they can't be relied on.
um And they always have a convenient excuse about it. But maybe you know there there are airline pilots in the world and there are policemen in the world. um But yeah, I don't know what to think about that. But either way, they're not there then.

(38:42):
They're not there in the lives of the children. And in in a similar fashion, Hal abandons his kid, or and ah which could be a similar fashion. um And if you like my headcanon that Ricky is Bill's kid, Bill abandons his kid too.
Yeah.

Dave (38:58):
You know, one thing I will say about Ricky, I did think of another reason he's in the movie. And that is because as Oz Perkins was reading the script, he goes, I need to kill more of the townspeople on camera. Because the only shot we get of people from the town dying is we get the we get the realtor.

(39:20):
right, with the shotgun in the closet. And then we get quick takes, little blips of this guy had this happen to him, this guy had this happen to him. But we don't get another character that we get to know it all that we watch die.
um um So Ricky, you know, is, it's an interesting way to sort of weave another townsperson into the movie.

(39:46):
um So you can have it stage another elaborate death. But, but I like your idea. I like your idea a lot.

And the fact that he has a connection to the monkey, Dave, is is another aspect. Not only does he only have the connection that there's a uniform in his father's closet, but he seeks out the monkey and he wants it back even after he's transacted it with Bill.
Just the way that Hal and Bill have a connection to the monkey, Ricky seems to have some sort of connection to it too.

Dave (40:18):
yeah

So it's not just the the closet with the dad in it. um

Dave (40:23):
yeah

he's he's too He's important to the story for reasons that I don't understand. But in my head canon, he's Bill's kid. And Bill lied about being a police officer, but...

Dave (40:36):
Wow. Wow.

But you know thats that is ah that is a wild theory, Dave. you know Don't take that to the bank.

Dave (40:43):
You don't do fanfic all that often. You go. You go, girl. i mean, I'm just like, you

there's just something There's just something there.

Dave (40:52):
This was a great surprise. I mean, this is supposed to be, you know, like the movie Graveyard, you know, that they release all the bad movies at the beginning of the year that they didn't know how to market or whatever. And instead we get this. I watched this again in a heartbeat and I've seen it twice.

Yeah, when this actually first came out, it ah was in the graveyard. We're kind of getting out of the graveyard now, but um it's true. how do you and So we talked a little about, Dave, about how the movie ends, and that is a spoiler.
Petey and Hal reconciles with Bill. Unfortunately, the monkey kills Bill immediately afterward. Or maybe fortunately, because Bill was kind of a dick.

Dave (41:34):
Yeah, Bill is just going to do something else stupid.

Neither Hal or Bill really grew.
I was a little disappointed that Bill was still Bill after all those years, but he did kind of come to seem to come to a quick realization that Hal wasn't as bad as he thought he was right before he died.
So they they reconnect, um but Petey, more importantly, Petey and Hal reconnect, Dave, and they kind of drive off into the sunset as the town is is reeling from death all over, humorously reeling from death, constant death throughout the city, which we see all kinds of um you know humorous deaths happening as they're driving away.

(42:15):
and And I think we should talk about, you know we said that the way to deal with trauma is to confront it and to name it and to own it. um But they're not able to get rid of it.
They got to keep the monkey. They got to keep the trauma. um What do you think of that? What do you think of the implications of that? Can you throw the monkey away, Dave? Or do you think that Oz is telling us some wisdom here that, you know, um you got to live with the monkey?

Dave (42:44):
I think it starts by learning to live with the monkey um in real life, my understanding of trauma. um But you know there's an interesting there's an interesting idea called disabilities um theology.
And it has to do with questioning whether or not people will be fundamentally different um if they are, you know, resurrected then um than before. You know, Jesus appeared with his wounds to his disciples.

(43:20):
And so there you have this sense that, you know, what is meant for evil or what hurts us can be turned to something good.
Right? um and i think that you know we don't like that idea in our culture we like to be able to leave the monkey behind and go off into the sunset and just you know once upon a time you know happily ever after um but that isn't the reality we live in anyway we we live in a reality where we die and um i think it you know There's another movie that we talked about based on the Stephen King story that deals very directly with this topic called um Pet Sematary. Pet Sematary is, to my mind, the most ghastly thing Stephen King ever wrote.

(44:09):
He actually called that in in another in an intro that he wrote to another edition of that book. And um that's very definitely based on the monkey's paw, which is definitely also a story about not reconciling with the natural order of things in life, which has to include things like trauma and death.

Thank you.

Dave (44:35):
um I do think that this movie is oddly tongue-in-cheek. about it. I actually think it's a creepy image, but it's also a really funny image.
I mean, the monkeys in the backseat of the car, I think he had a seatbelt on or something.

Of course, I'd strap that guy in.

Dave (44:50):
You don't want those cymbals clanging or that you don't want that drum going.

Are you kidding me? He's fucking evil.
He doesn't have symbols. Yeah. yeah

Dave (44:59):
So yeah, I mean, that's my take.

You know, I don't think you can get rid of the monkey, unfortunately. ah There's a little film called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Dave (45:10):
I do.

Dave. And in that movie, people go to, you like this reference, people go to great extents to erase some trauma and and unhappy circumstances of, you know, that they've experienced.

Dave (45:15):
you

We've all seen this movie, so I'm not spoiling it. And in the end, you know, ah they just, I, I'm not going to spoil the ending, but it's the, the film suggests that even if you completely erase what was and get rid of bad things that you don't want to happen,
they'll find a way to work their way back into your life. So I think you can't really avoid the trauma if it's already there. um Not that having a bad relationship is the same as a monkey that kills people or an absentee father, but I think there's an, oh my God, are we remaking hereditary?

(45:57):
there's There's an inevitability avan of things.

Dave (45:59):
ah yeah

Yeah.

Dave (46:02):
Well, at least they get to drive off into a sunrise.

Yeah.

Dave (46:05):
um And I think that that is interesting because, you know, often in movies where people are called upon to reconcile themselves to what happened, to their actual histories or to death, um we get the sense that there's a reason.
And we get the sense that there's a, you know,

(46:26):
something that is Gloriful, as it were, about that natural order of things that we are called to live through um here. I don't know if we are, but the closest we get is them driving off into the sunset.
Sunrise, I'm sorry.

No, they even, Petey comments on that it's not natural, you know. It's like, I know I have to accept death, words to the effect of, have to accept death, but I didn't know like half the people in the town would die on the same day.

Dave (46:53):
yeah He goes, yeah, but everybody died.

so he acknowledges that. um

Dave (46:58):
I think that's what i think what the son says one point.

ah Yeah, so maybe Hereditary is a closer parallel, but you know, it's a little bit of a happier ending than Hereditary because... In Hereditary, the people lose themselves where you just have to babysit a killer monkey.
um

Dave (47:13):
Well, and they do get back together.

And I guess pass it on down to the next generation.

Dave (47:16):
Yeah, they do get back together because, you know, Hal's whole thing is he doesn't want to get close to his biological child because he's worried the monkeys will then be found by his biological child and ruin his life.
And...

And here here is a very dark interpretation, Dave.

Dave (47:30):
Whoa!

The monkey that is the trauma is what now forms their bond.

Dave (47:37):
Whoa!

What in the military is called trauma bonding.

Dave (47:42):
Wow. And we du their dad was a military man, so...

Oh, he was an airline pilot, but maybe he was a military man too. I don't know.

Dave (47:50):
oh yeah.

He wore a uniform, but yeah, they're, oh my gosh, it's not advocating trauma bonding.

Dave (47:52):
He did.

I'm taking it too far.

Dave (47:56):
he lie um You know,

Someone's got to take care of that monkey, but um it looks like they're going to bond over other things but because besides the trauma of having a killer monkey. What would you do if you had the monkey, Dave?

Dave (48:08):
if well what would I do if I had the monkey?

Not the trauma, not an absentee father. You've got the actual killer monkey.

Dave (48:15):
If I had the monkey, I'd repeat the word Republican to myself over and over and over again and turn the key. No, I'm kidding.

Oh, you're a fool.

Dave (48:22):
I wouldn't do that.

they He doesn't take requests.

Dave (48:23):
I went out to the park. Oh, it's a horrible monkey does not take requests.

He doesn't take requests, Dave.

Dave (48:29):
Yes, they make that very clear.

He does not.

Dave (48:31):
Yeah, that's a good question. What would I do if I had the monkey? You know, that's not really a hypothetical question in some ways, but if we put it in the hypothetical category,
um
I would probably keep trying to find out why the heck a monkey what is it about this thing that you can chop up and throw away and then it magically returns what's what's the cosmic reality behind that that um keeps that curse if you will or whatever it is alive um I mean you know the monkey too we're going to get the monkey too right I mean that's is it's gotta it's got to

I highly doubt it. It seemed pretty definitive end, but I, of course, always say that.

Dave (49:18):
well and you know the The invention of Hal and Pete and pete and a Bill, you know Hal and Bill are in the original story, but they do not have the same relationship.
um And it's it's more about Hal with his kids. um than it is about Hal and Bill.

Hmm.

Dave (49:36):
So Osgood Perkins chose that as sort of his defining relationship in the film in some ways, or one of the defining relationships. um You know, I think it's heavily implied that what Hal does here is he he stops trying to avoid the fact that the monkey's going to be part of their lives, and that

he completely his his um everything in his life was uh around avoiding the monkey you're right

Dave (50:13):
Yeah. And it's interesting because later there's a great sequence where we meet Hal after the death of his aunt. And he goes back into the office of the junkie little store he works in and confronts somebody who's like 20 years younger than him.

(50:35):
ah who is very kind of doofus. And um later on, um we see that guy die a horrible death. So...

what does he What is he constantly saying? He says like something over and over again. I can't remember what it is, though.

Dave (50:50):
Oh, that sucks. as He says, that

Yeah, hes he says that sucks.

Dave (50:53):
Yeah. Yeah.

And you know what's interesting, Dave? you You made me think. Both Bill and Hal, you know, Bill hides from his trauma, right? Hides from the monkey.

Dave (51:06):
Yeah. I mean,

Hal re... I'm sorry. Hal hides from his trauma. Works a shitty job, stays away from his kids. Bill embraces. He climbs to the bottom. He writes the monkey notes. He waits patiently for the monkey, kind of worships the monkey.
But they both have pretty horrible lives. Neither one of them can get past it. It's too bad Bill couldn't come overcome it. um But, you know, he kind of got what he paid for.

Dave (51:31):
well i mean

yeah Or he he paid for what he was doing.

Dave (51:33):
Yeah, and don't forget, you know, Bill, um this supposed acceptance that Bill has of the monkey really just has to do with his own hatred for Hal and and his own wanting to wanting to be kind of a weird cult leader or whatever the monkey.

That's true.

Dave (51:48):
You could picture Bill going off and trying to start a cult if he'd been allowed to live. Maybe that'd be the monkey too. But yeah,
But yeah, you know he's even willing to subvert the life of his of his nephew um when and Pete surprises him. And you know Pete is a great character because he's really the only sane character in the movie.

You don't think Hal's saying?

Dave (52:16):
I think Hal gets to sanity quicker. Hal as sane as Hal can be and be in the position that he's in. But Petey is the one who constantly speaks common sense to Hal about their relationship.
And, you know, you kind of get the sense that that Petey is willing to deal with the way things are, you know, in a way that Hal has to work up to and that Bill, you know, sort of sublimates into his own desire for revenge and whatever else.

Well, you know, i just thought it was very interesting, the recurrence theme of and absentee father as kind of a shared trauma and other, you know, metaphor for other shared traumas.
um Did you have anything else to say about the monkey before we close this out, Dave?

Dave (53:10):
Yes, if you have a chance to pick up one of those monkey popcorn buckets and mail it to me, i can pay you for postage.

Mm-hmm.

Dave (53:20):
Otherwise, I'll just consider it kind of a fan kind of gift. But I want one. I had one in my hands at AMC and they are so cool. but um But yeah, gimme, gimme swag.
Yeah.

If you want even more hardcore swag, um you know, by the way, i I'm going to say I'll remind you, but if you want even more hardcore swag, the official monkey figurine can be purchased for $125 at neon store. That would be neonrated.com. Head to the monkey section.
um You can also buy a commemorative t t-shirt of Uncle Chip. As you know, Uncle Chip was one of the early victims of um of the monkey. he It's a shirt that has a picture of Uncle Chip.

(54:04):
It says in loving memory. And of course, Uncle Chip is Oz Perkins.

Dave (54:09):
Yes, Oz Perkins plays Uncle Tim.

So you could get either a $125 monkey figurine that does not play music. ah Some people say they got ones that played music on TikTok, but I don't know where you can get those.

Dave (54:20):
ah

Maybe you have to be very special or they are lying. um But if you would like a nice little figurine for $125, get it there. You can probably get a popcorn bucket on eBay or at AMC or a major chain or an Uncle Chip shirt.
I might get me one of those Uncle Chip shirts today.

Dave (54:37):
I loved Uncle Chip.

Yep. Well, ah
that's all I got. If you would like to argue with us or completely hated this or thought it was ridiculous how we tried to make this silly movie about monkeys, about an absentee father, Head on over to mindframefilms.com. Go to the contact section.
Write me a very long, hateful email. I will forward it to Dave.

Dave (55:01):
Thank you.

um We have a monkey. Will I turn its dial? How hateful can you be? Will I twist the key on the on the monkey's back? um I don't know. see See if you can force me to go over the edge.
Our next episode is going to be ah highly anticipated film. That Bong Joon-ho's follow-up to his Academy Award winner, Parasite. um That is Mickey 17 featuring Robert Pattinson starring Robert Pattinson. I should say yeah highly, highly anticipated film.

(55:33):
We're looking forward to seeing it and reviewing it. We've seen it, but we're going to review it and talk about it. um If you'd like to, if you don't like going to our website and you still want to argue with us, Facebook, facebook.com slash mindframes movies.
We are proud to be on the now playing network with now playing network.net. You can find other great, uh podcasts there like monkey moves actually i'm sorry christmas movies actually and um killer monkeys podcast if the killer monkey had a podcast day that would be um that'd be very popular he doesn't say much yeah but uh that's some catchy music as and of course directors club is is there too uh so great hearing from you and thank you for listening listening

Dave (56:08):
but he makes his point.

All Episodes

Episode 88 - The Monkey

Mindframes – Episode 88: The Monkey (2025)

🎬 General Information – The Monkey (2025)

⭐ Cast Highlights

🛠️ Special Trivia

📌 Episode Breakdown & Timestamps

[00:00] – Introduction

**[00:35] – What is The Monkey?**

[01:39] – Osgood Perkins as a Director

[02:52] – How Different is This from Stephen King's Story?

[04:10] – Trivia: Why Doesn’t the Monkey Have Cymbals?

[05:58] – Cast & Performances<

Episode Transcript

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.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 88 - The Monkey

Mindframes – Episode 88: The Monkey (2025)

🎬 General Information – The Monkey (2025)

⭐ Cast Highlights

🛠️ Special Trivia

📌 Episode Breakdown & Timestamps

[00:00] – Introduction

[00:35] – What is The Monkey?

[01:39] – Osgood Perkins as a Director

[02:52] – How Different is This from Stephen King's Story?

[04:10] – Trivia: Why Doesn’t the Monkey Have Cymbals?

[05:58] – Cast & Performances<

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Cold Case Files: Miami

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Episode 88 - The Monkey

**[00:35] – What is The Monkey?**

Cold Case Files: Miami