Episode 92: Sinners

Episode Transcript
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Dave (00:30):
Dave Canfield's mind.

Michael Cockerill (00:33):
And today we are talking about Sinners, the new Ryan Coogler film um that is out currently in wide release. It is...
Not a follow-up to anything. It's a completely original film written by Mr. Kugler. um The plot thesis, the plot synopsis, official plot synopsis is trying to leave their troubled lives behind twin brothers return to their hometown to start again, only to discover that a greater evil is waiting to welcome them back.

(01:08):
um As we said, it's directed by Ryan Coogler, um known for Fruitville Station, Creed, Black Panther, and Black Panther Wakanda Forever did both Black Panthers.
bat Black Panthers, oh boy, Dave, we're all on a great start.

Dave (01:22):
Black Panthers.

He's generally a person who's considered to like blend social consciousness maybe on the light version uh with at least uh inter i don't know who's i love creed and black panther i've been a big fan of his i'm surprised i haven't been a bigger fan of his because as we know black panther was my number one movie 2018 um boy i was didn't get nobody nobody nobody supported me in that dave everyone else loved i don't know

Dave (01:49):
I, yeah, I didn't think that was a, I didn't think that was a miss, a miss vote at all. I thought that was a fine, fine film.

I feel supported. um But nonetheless, you would think you'd been more on my radar, but a very capable director who's coming out with this film. um And we're going to talk about our reaction to it.
But where are you at with with Ryan Coogler right now?

Dave (02:13):
You know, I haven't seen the Creed films and I never saw the Black Panther sequel. um Black Panther is obviously a masterpiece. It's one of the greatest comic book movies ever made for my money.
um And it really broke Michael B. Jordan um in a big way ah and sort of solidified his status as an A-lister at this point.

(02:38):
And it's really neat to see him in a dual role in this new um in this new Ryan Coogler film. You know, Ryan Coogler is revitalizing a certain kind of horror movie character in this film that we're going to get to in a little bit.
But that, to me, always, you know, just says, this guy really knows how to write. Because this particular kind of character has been used and used and used and used and used.

(03:12):
And man, he, he finds life in it and finds a big time life and metaphorical significance. And if you know this movie centers, it's burning up the box office.
I mean, people are it dropped, I think only 4.9%. four point nine and ah After its first week, that's kind of unheard of these days.

(03:38):
Um,

It's pretty rare. Yeah.

Dave (03:41):
So i'm i'm happy that it's doing well because i want to see what Cougar does next.

Yeah, me too. Yeah, it seems like it's doing pretty well. ah Kind of wish i was doing better. I mean, because I'm greedy, but it's doing very, very well. it is on its way to profitability.
everyone Everyone is keeping their eye on the financials of this movie for a couple of reasons. um Just since you brought it up, I'll comment on it. One of the reasons is this year, as we talked in our last episode, has been marred by great original films that don't do well at the box office.

Dave (04:19):
yeah

So here comes a great original film or what and people anticipate is a great original film. And it's not that cheap of a film. I think the budget was like 45, 50, 60 million, something wrong there. um And people want to say, is the trend going to be bucked? Is the trend going to be consistent or is this going to be got the star power black panther tie-in ah with the direct same director um and so people are watching that another reason they're watching it is because the very generous royalty and and and rights ownership deal, maybe not royalty, but rights ownership deal that Kugler got. Usually he, you know, a director doesn't get to own their own stuff for a long time, but he negotiated in 25 years, which is I think what Tarantino gets.

(05:03):
um That's pretty unheard of. You have to really want your stuff, but hey, he got it in here.

Dave (05:06):
Yeah.

And that's another reason why people are talking about a lot. And another kind of more, I don't know if I buy into this, but I'll throw it out there because it's it's in the um but the the metaverse since we're talking about marvel we were uh it's in the metaverse and the metaverse of ideas some people think that an over focus on the uh financials of the film is racism and also the studios trying to like throw cold water on these 25 year deals that directors might ask for if brian kugler gets away with it

Dave (05:43):
Right.

so that's out there all of those things are out there nonetheless um it's doing well and i and it's i'm not surprised because when we saw it we thought that it would grow with word of mouth because it is got such a great um it's something that you want to share you share with people and i i think the word of mouth is is strong with this one uh

Dave (06:05):
Yeah, we it's funny because we went, you know, to another screening the other night. And um we by that time had seen sinners twice.

Yep.

Dave (06:16):
And that probably gives you some idea of what our reviews are going to sound like.

yep

Dave (06:20):
um But we saw the film twice in short order. And then I think what about a week later, two weeks later, it had come out. And we knew that it was doing well.
But we went to this other press screening. And at that theater, they were also playing sinners. And man, you could tell that all of these people were there to see sinners.

(06:42):
There was just tons of people in the lobby and they were excited. And I just think, um you know, we're going to have a lot to say about this movie, but if I felt excited to be in a movie theater again.
It was neat. And love that feeling.

So if you're going to say that Ryan Coogler has a tell on his films, often there is a social undertone, a socially conscious undertone to his films. and like I said, I kind of uncharitably described it as light.
I love Ryan Coogler. Don't take too much. Don't take too much too much stock in that what I'm trying to say is he blends the blockbuster fun aspects that get people that get get the butts in the seats with a social conscious message.

(07:30):
um Maybe not improve station that might just be all social conscious, but I'm talking about Creed Black Panther. his black panther films and this they are exciting movies blockbusters they could be blockbusters with the right ingredients um but they have a social conscious undertone you saw um you know the the facts of privilege in black panther and black panther and the second black panther uh in creed it's very much in there and by the way dave he only did creed he didn't do creed two or three 42 00:08:02,690 --> 000000000:08 Dave

Dave (08:16):
And,
and Sinners is a is a labor of love project for him. He was very much the driving force here, probably along with Ryan Coogler.
um But he had a bigger stake in it. He had more skin in the game than just starring in it.

so um right ryan kugler co-wrote black panther and you tend to see in his films uh that focus on structural power and socially conscious minded like you got but you got a very socially conscious minded villain in black panther played by michael b jordan killmonger uh and yes i think that's one of the aspects that make that film great um but back to sinners i think i've said all i have to say on ryan cougar

Dave (09:07):
Yeah, I'm pretty good.

as far as what makes him interesting as a director without getting into the specifics of this film um we got uh our cinematographer here i don't know if this is the right place to talk about him but this is generally the order we go in um autumn archipel so did black pander wakenda forever ah did the loki television series which is considered pretty good as far as a disney plus series goes um I think the cinematography on this film is good.

(09:40):
It is good. And I'm giving you a chance to talk before I rattle on, Dave, but I can continue move on.

Dave (09:44):
Yeah, I, you know, the the thing is when you're making a movie that is part horror movie, part action movie, has a lot of comedic flair and has some showstopping musical stuff in it.
ah And ah this is the non-spoiler section. So that's as far as I'll go with all that. But yes, all those elements are big part of sinners. um That's a lot to ask of a cinematographer.

(10:09):
And I felt never distracted By what was going on with the camera in this film, it, it flows beautifully moment to moment.
And there's some wonderful lighting in this film. Some wonderful highlighting of different characters utilizing different um different things with the camera and whatnot.

(10:34):
So yeah, just, you know, ace, ace film craft for me. um The editing as well.

So this was, no, we're not, we can't go to editing yet. And I don't even know if I want to talk about editing.

Dave (10:46):
yeah Go ahead.

We can, but we have to, we have to go, we have to talk more about the cinematography and lighting. I'm sorry, Dave. All
all right. the First of all, the most important thing to, um I shared this around, perhaps some of you saw it, but ah Ryan, Ryan,
Kugler talked about um the importance of gave like Polaroid put out this video hosted by Ryan Kugler where he describes different types of screen resolutions and why they're different and how they're used differently.

(11:20):
um Okay, so that came out like a week before Sinners, and I shared that on social media. I sent that to you, Dave, and it's very interesting. I thought it was just very informative, but never little did I know it was going to play into the actual movie, um the viewing of the movie.
So Sinners was shot, and this is one of the reasons why it's got kind of a bigger budget. It was shot using 65mm IMAX. um They heavily marketed that. The Polaroid thing was the Polaroid difference between screen resolutions was given that.

(11:48):
um So it has a like a great high resolution look. And I will say there are elements of the film that can only be appreciated IMAX.

Dave (12:02):
Yes.

Unfortunately, i we we I'm not driving to Indianapolis to watch it in the purest format, the 65 millimeter. We don't have a screening of that. There's only 11 in the country. We don't have that here in Chicago. But there is an aspect of scenes, I'm not going to spoil it, that you will not get.
You will not get something that happens. It's not character or plot, but there is an aspect of the way the the screen looks that you will not be able to see unless you go see it in IMAX.

Dave (12:29):
And we thought we shouldn't we should mention that we saw it both ways.

And you should go see it in IMAX.

Dave (12:33):
We saw that in the nine X aspect ratio and everything the first time. And the second time was in a standard presentation. um Much better on IMAX, I felt.

Yeah, I did. I hadn't read yet that they did the thing that they did. um but
which is the IMAX screenings get to take advantage of some of the resolution that Brian talks about in his Polaroid video. So if you watch the Polaroid video, you'll kind of know why they put that out after you see the film.

(13:09):
um But I didn't know they did that until after the fact. And I read about it after the fact. I mean, I saw it happen. I'm like, wow, did that really just happen? um And then it didn't happen when we watched the laser presentation of it.
um but anyway great let's move on to lighting and move segue from into lighting if you're okay with it but i don't remember what movie we were just talking about but we we had some discussion dave about using natural light this film we and somehow we had an idea that this film was going to use a lot of natural light

Dave (13:29):
Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

um I don't know how I got that idea. Maybe I read it on Reddit. um But there's a lot of natural light in this film. And I can't remember, Dave, which film we saw that didn't use it. Maybe it was um The Shrouds.
It doesn't use very much natural light. um But in I can't remember which film it was. i should i shouldn't I should check myself because there are some outdoor scenes that movie. But almost all of the first scenes,

(14:10):
ah the first third of the film are captured outside in real light ah so they took advantage of that imax they you know there's just a a brightness and an openness of it but a very interesting choice and i noted this in every mofo scene i watched dave is even though they were shooting outside in these beautiful sunlit scenes they always had cloudy skies, which I thought, what an interesting choice.

(14:39):
And I think that choice is a thematic one rather than a um lighting or cinematographic, graphic or a lighting or a photographic ah choice. I think that that was intentionally chosen. 79 00:14:51,130 --> 000000000:15 Michael Cockerill

Dave (15:11):
David Koehnertsson, That's a thematic that's a thematic element to I mean the idea of. David Koehnertsson, You know the bright future being actually being kind of cloudy.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, Dave.
Yeah. ah So, yeah, I think that was mainly a thematic choice. And i think it there's a lot of warmth in those. um in those opening scenes and i i i like it you know you know you never know you can't trust the sun and the weather um i think they shot this in georgia not sure where they shot it um definitely not in mississippi i don't think uh so it's it's very well very i liked that choice and then the second half about halfway through the second half of the film it becomes night and there's pretty much no natural light

Dave (15:58):
Yeah.

and you get a lot of glowing incandescent feeling light uh around the juke joint and the setting up of the juke joint um so i think that's a big contrast and it and it happens at the exact same time um we switch into the tone of the film switching switches from joyful preparation to um joyful celebration ultimately to monster monster invasive harsh uh yeah

Dave (16:30):
I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that we both noticed um on the second viewing was noticing things we didn't notice the first time. And some of those things absolutely had to do with the way that certain things were lit.
um Definitely the way things were framed. And um I was, you know, you you don't get that.

(16:55):
You don't get that kind of candy, you know, thrown at you as a viewer. All that often you know movies can be very workman like sometimes. um And genre movies can be very like kind of paint by the numbers in terms of the kind of scenes you get and the things that are in the frame and what the point is.
ah Of the composition and the lighting and all that but kind of on the nose, but here there was a lot of imagination. and subtlety. And there was also um kind of a neat balance between ah the monster moments, which sometimes could be very cold, um kind of um coldly lit.

(17:38):
And then some of them, ah and those were a lot like a lot of the scenes outside the Duke joint. But then for the scenes in the Duke joint with the monsters You could really feel, and even just in the juke joint itself in those scenes, the sweat, the heat, that yeah ah the the environment that you were in.

(17:59):
and um And it's like, ah you know this is one of those weird movies where almost everything in it invites you to look for symbols, look for little metaphors, look for little meanings.
it is It is that good.

yeah and but i think uh kugler is kind of a master of uh positioning as you called it the of the actual mise-en-scene dave and because in this film you see the camera move all over you get a bunch of different angles camera on the ground camera outside camera inside um ah camera above camera moving you know you know camera walk you know

Dave (18:34):
Amen.

dolling through the through a crowd and um those are important because inside outside is an important theme and ah literal part of the plot of this film so i i think um very smartly created a couple of uh camera you know coin point counterpoints that highlighted things that were going on with the plot which you didn't have to do but hey you did so i guess what i'm talking about is um sometimes there's a monster outside or a threat outside and good people inside and there's a ah barrier between them that can't be broken and that's also a thematic barrier by the way a cultural barrier um and

Dave (19:14):
Yes.
yes

He has, and in one particular scene we went over, and I know a lot of people have analyzed the scene too, so people probably know what scene I'm talking about, where there's a threat outside and inside, and then you also get like a um you get a shot of where the camera is laid on the ground between the two.
That's like, ah it's almost like it's represented, it's showing you the the view of um both sides at the same time, even though I don't think you can see through walls, but it's it's showing you the division.

(20:05):
um So it's very smart. And then you also get overhead shots. um yeah you it's a pretty interesting choices thematic choices and nothing that i wouldn't expect from seeing the black panther film and creed uh both i also thought were uh great directed and had excellent uh cinematography of course different cinematographer for those but um

(20:30):
nonetheless nonetheless you know dave i shot you down with with editor but when we're talking about that point counterpoint you know who who puts that together who who slices those two scenes who knows they might not have been shot the same day they probably were but who slices those things to the together uh the editor was michael schauver on this um i think they've done that he's done every uh oh he didn't do the second black panther but he's done every other um

Dave (20:31):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

kugler film um you know and another a minor and it's not minor but another thing i want to talk about while we're in our um uh technical section and that is often when you have an actor playing two roles and they have to be together that does not go well you know we can think of a lot of movies with

Dave (21:15):
Right.
Yeah, it's very hard to edit. It's very hard to edit that because you have sight sight lines that have to be taken into consideration. You have the dramaturgy of characters looking in one direction and then the character looking in the other direction. And did you have coverage for that?

(21:36):
um, were there enough shots for you to choose from to construct what you needed to construct and, oh, we don't have enough shots of this. So we got to use this take. It's very complicated.
That is how, you know, have heard once that somebody say that is how, you know, if you're really a filmmaker is if you can edit a movie without losing your mind and people that do that and do it well, are every bit as much artists as directors and actors and writers and everybody else we associate with film.

course the final cut the editor always has the final cut right um uh but i was i what i was getting at there's more on the editing success of that which it is a success in editing but the technical approach of having two michael b jordans on screen together i think they nailed it they nailed it i was convinced the entire time most the time like you know when you have

Dave (22:12):
ha

Freaky Friday, i don't know. What's a movie where there's two people playing the same thing? Freaky Friday is where they switch mom and dad. or

Dave (22:40):
there's been a lot of them this year actually robert de niro just did one where he plays uh two people uh gangster movie big surprise and uh and there was another one i can't remember the name of it but another one was it

I'm a 90-year-old gangster. I'm 85.

Dave (22:58):
that movie could have used a monster for sure

no they they nailed it i believed every second that these were two people and um yeah

Dave (23:09):
Yeah, absolutely. its It's a stunning performance from Michael Jordan. um and And you can tell just from the...

yeah after all the playing basketball too who would think that

Dave (23:19):
ah oh Michael B. Jordan. ah the The thing about... um You know yeah you good guys can already tell...
We could do a whole episode just on the technical merits of this piece on the acting and the film craft that went into it. um But, ah you know, this is a case of all of that coming together.

(23:44):
um And yeah, we're just excited to see the film doing well. And I don't know what are we going to what are we going to move on to or am I going to talk about the music?

Well, let's give a shout out. I think it has an interesting ah score.

Dave (24:01):
Yes. Yes.

it I don't know if I want to say anything about the score, but I will say in a movie about the blues, where the blues is the heart of the movie, you know there's going to be great blues.
But I'll tell you what, there's a lot more than great blues in the soundtrack.

Dave (24:16):
yes

And I'm not going to give away what I want to say. um So I'm going to say there's more than the blues, and I found that really bold. There are a couple choices in this film that are bold, um where it's like this couldve gone the this could have gone south, pun intended, um real fast, with a couple of the choices that this this this artist made, this director made.

Dave (24:37):
David Myers,

And one of the choices is things that are incorporated into the – score into the score. There's also, but there's tons of choices that could have gone south.

Dave (24:52):
And it's a score that is it's a score that's motivated by the writing in the film you know a lot of the time if you're watching a horror film they have what's called the stinger and the stinger is where the music goes and you're not expecting it to and it makes you jump um here i would say the score almost becomes a character in the film um it isn't just telling you how to feel it has its own things that it says and that's pretty rare uh because usually when that happens it disrupts it reminds you you're watching a movie or whatever it doesn't mesh but here it also meshes perfectly and you never even think about it except

(25:40):
John Gerstle, when all of a sudden you realize it's got you thinking about something that. John Gerstle, You know, just makes the makes the experience that much richer.

Incredibly technically great film. um Production design, excellent. Set design, excellent.

Dave (25:55):
yeah.

um Weapons, ah often often authentic weapons to the air. ah You know, i think authentic authentic dialect for the most part, though I don't know much about that, admittedly.
But really, ah ah ah you feel do feel like you're immersed in the 1930s and not a cartoon version of the nineteen thirty s the real nineteen thirty s vehicles as well um all right let's let's talk about the cast even though i know we talked you you you said a little bit about michael b jordan but i think you know he's he's one of my favorite working actors uh and i think that as well as a great director by the way which i will never not mention um

Dave (26:30):
Yeah.

he's great here and the technical all of that technical work they did to create two Michael B Jordan's smoke and stack are their names would have all gone to nothing if it wasn't for Michael B Jordan's ability to divide them into two characters through the craft of acting and he did that amazingly there is not a second sometimes i mix their names up but there is not a second in the film where i thought one was the other maybe i forgot which and one had which name but they the characters are so unique and cost you and like i said costuming and technical approach also helped with this but michael b jordan was pulling his weight and some to create two unique characters and i think the narrative choice to have two brothers that

(27:27):
are coming from the same place but take different choices in the end is it's great

Dave (27:32):
I mean, would you say this is, I would say this is very possibly nominatable. ah If people remember it, if people remember the performance, it's that good.

yeah i think so

Dave (27:46):
Yeah, this is ah and a contender for for best actor this year.

ah
i think he will get a nomination i'll call that right now i think he will get a nomination for best actor um miles katon katon possibly it could also a very interesting um first time really i believe his first feature film um

Dave (27:58):
Oh,

a lot of emotional depth and he's the centerpiece of the film he is the uh the the the character which the plot revolves around in in every way michael b jordan is kind of the star but the plot does not revolve around him as much as it does sammy um the character that miles plays here uh he was on broadway but i don't really think he's been in too many movies and dave i shocked you

Dave (28:13):
blew

(28:35):
you blew my mind

I shocked you and blew your mind before we got on here. I had assumed that the reason he had not been anything was because he was a musician that they taught how to act because his blues playing is so damn good in the movie, but it was, but it was the inverse.

Dave (28:53):
yeah

He's an actor who learned how to play the blues for this role.

Dave (29:00):
and mike and mike

It's incredible.

Dave (29:02):
i i and you know I'm curious. I'd like to get into get into it deeper, see if they dubbed any of it see if they had any w ringers in. you know There's an old Ralph Macchio movie called Crossroads.

No, I'm embracing the mystery. I want, I'm eating, i'm I'm at the table and I want that fake matrix steak, Dave.

Dave (29:14):
ah ah
I don't what i only want to rate on your parade.

I don't care. i don't want to know. i don't want to know.

Dave (29:21):
I don't want to give you the blues. I don't want to give you the blues. um He's fantastic in this film. He's young. He comes across as vulnerable, tender, a really unique character.
And then he starts to play that guitar and sing. And you have that. He has a really interesting voice. um And I think it's so one of those things where you either got that voice or you don't. You can't learn to.

(29:48):
You can't learn to do what he's doing vocally. He just has a certain tone and weight to the color of his voice. And here he is.
i mean, i felt i felt like I had the same reaction that all the people, all the care other characters in the movie have when they're listening to him. Because he's supposed to have this musical ability that's almost sort of magical.

(30:15):
And man, they lucked out in casting this guy because he's, you know, he's holding his own with Miles Canton and Haley Stanfield.
And we're going to get to Jack Connell a little bit, Delway Lindo. This is, this is a great cast and he manages to be great in, in his role for a first time at

yep and i think we should talk about some other characters and i would like to say that you know we mentioned i mentioned he's on broadway or came came from broadway and uh hailey stanfield is also in this from from true grit when she was a child she's also a singer and for a lot of reasons which we can talk about if you want dave but only if you want this absolutely could have been a musical

Dave (31:03):
Oh, we talked about that repeatedly.

Yeah, we we and you have talked about that. I meant on the podcast, but but ah it does not surprise me any one bit that they made sure they had great singers to do this. But the the pacing, the importance of the music in it, I hope they make a musical version of this.
Yeah.

Dave (31:22):
Yeah, this is a this is a situation where, you know, it's kind of like you hear they're making a musical out of young Frankenstein to go, okay, I mean, gay I guess that could work.

yeah

Dave (31:30):
And, and they did a good job. Young Frankenstein is a good musical. This would be a freaking great musical.

I would, you know, I will mention that I'd also, i don't know have anything about Haley Sinfield you want to say, Dave, but

Dave (31:44):
You know, it's like, you know,

you don't have to if you don't want to.

Dave (31:47):
David Kasher, just hard man this whole cast deserves to have stuff said about them. David Kasher, Because there isn't a throwaway role. Kasher, In this movie there isn't a single character where I go and that was fun, but I didn't have to have that character.
David Kasher, I think you know she's just an amazing example of. David Kasher, I mean she sizzles in this movie she she is sensuous and sultry and horrific and she goes through everything as an actress in this movie and she she nails it.

I think the sleeper, I didn't even know he was going to be in this movie. I didn't know who he is, but he has a very important role and it's very interesting. ah Jack O'Connell.
who plays Remick, which we can talk about in the spoiler section. Big surprise for me. I didn't know he was even going to be in the movie. um Delroy Lindo, I knew was going to be in the movie.

(32:49):
ah And he's kind of such us a scene stealer. um butre Glad to see him in there. And I think perfect casting right there.

Dave (32:58):
Delroy Lindo, he's a statesman actor you expect him.

ah Real...

Dave (33:03):
To be an absolute asset in anything he's in and he's hysterically funny at times in this in this film and he's utterly believable you just it's a case of perfect casting.

yep um and yeah i think those are the people that i like really like delroy linda really does add a lot to every scene he's in and um actually is great for comedic timing he this movie has a lot of comedy it kind of has everything for everyone to be honest um but he he he carries a lot of the comedy aspects of it and kind of yeah perfect perfect role for him

Dave (33:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.

um

Dave (33:43):
He also has a great monologue near the beginning of the film when they're riding in the car. And he's explaining how he became a musician. And you feel every bit of the history he's talking about.

Yeah, he's kind of like the musical guide guideian for musical guide for for for Sammy.
Yep, there's one more surprise cameo, which we won't talk about, and some other actors. ah Great cast.

Dave (34:12):
There's a cameo in this film that if you're from, ship well, the most will say is if you're from Chicago, it'll bring a huge smile to your face. ah And if you're not,
um i hope I hope that you know enough that it impacts you because it's a genius move.

(34:36):
And I don't know if it it doesn't even almost feel like a cameo because the scene the character is in is kind of long.

Yeah, maybe cameo isn't the right word.

Dave (34:46):
you know, i don't know.

um This sounds like something I would lecture you on for misusing cameo.

Dave (34:49):
Ah, got you. Yes.

I misused it. Hoist by my own pedanticness. So before we do our spoiler section, before we do our spoiler free review, I just want to say.
um There are two end credits seen. Do not leave for them. And both and in our first, in my second screening, um were you there, Dave? No, no. Did you come to see it again?

Dave (35:10):
yes

Yes, you came to it see with again. People left. There's a very important end credits scene. And let's not talk about end credits and why they do that, but you got to stay for them. Let's talk about our spoiler-free reviews.

Dave (35:22):
Yeah.

Why don't you go first, Dave?

Dave (35:24):
Yeah. And, and there's two and there's, and there's two, we just want to stress there's two of these scenes. And so you're going to get one mid credit, and then you're going to get one right at the end.

There's two.

Dave (35:36):
So don't leave until all the credits have run. So um review.

Yes.

Dave (35:45):
This movie is maybe the best movie I've seen this year. um
It is fun. It is really frightening at times. It's historically significant. It is funny.

(36:08):
It is um full of fantastic ah action. And it has characters that you care deeply about.
i Kaney, I almost pity Ryan Coogler because now he has to go out and try to make a better movie than centers. John Kaney, Is this a better movie than black panther I don't know it's at least as good for me.

(36:36):
John Kaney, I am very excited to see it doing well, and I urge you to see it on the biggest screen that you can. John Kaney, Do not screen this at home if if.
John Potter, Unless you have see it and see it in IMAX or see that at least in laser.

Yes, I am. I love the film. I was excited to see it twice. it's It's more that we've gotten so many horror films this year. It really is more than just a horror film. It has horror. It has thought. It has heart.
um It has human connection. um It is extremely heartfelt and, ah you know, something that...

Dave (37:18):
Thank you.

makes you feel alive i'm talking about what you feel about but uh it's a smart movie it's a funny movie it's one that is historically grounded and it feels present about it feels very present um you know it's it's not just about personal redemption it's not just about sin but it does have personal and you know societal redemption in it uh it i think the the I think it's a career best performance for Michael B. Jordan.

(37:51):
um I think the the horror elements of it are balanced just enough to be appeal to a pretty wide range. audience i think it is you know we we we kind of live in a time when our our communities are falling apart not just you know our connections between each other are fraying because of social media or whatever um but this is a movie about community this is a ah show about community coming together in the face of a truly truly like almost apocalyptic uh onslaught

(38:22):
um where there's a a strength that lives you know kind of outside the outside of standard religion outside of the you know uh traditional power structures um
ah ah like we said all of the technical aspects are excellent uh the cinematography is is stunning um the the dialogue is is is witty and the plot pacing is Genius, you know, we talked, Dave, there's a scene we were talking about, there's a scene that exists just to keep the plot on the right pace.

(38:59):
And for, well, but there there are scenes scattered around and ah choices made for what the characters do that really keep the plot moving. And we are on a spoiler-free section, so I won't get into specifics about that.
um But this is a place that brings certain locales to life. I'm thinking of the church and the juke joint. um And it...

Dave (39:21):
John Kaney, I mean I felt that the fields, you know that scene when they're they're picking cotton in the fields and they get that wonderful close up of bare feet. John And i think it's sammy's bare feet, that you see, and you think to yourself.
John Kaney, John Kaney, they're out now this person is out in the hot sun. And they're barefoot doing manual labor.

(39:45):
And you feel all of it. It's not just, you know, the field doesn't exist just so they can have characters stand in it and say words.

You ever worked in a field?

Dave (40:02):
I actually have ah on a farm one time.

Good, I'm glad to hear it.

Dave (40:05):
And wow, that was that was hard work.

yeah so I think, you know, when i when we reviewed Black Panther, I said that the scene that I love and sold me on Black Panther was when Black Panther is...
kind of defeated and he travels to the ancestral plane and communes with his ancestors and gets guidance about how to confront the the force that is assaulting them and there is a scene i will say that is similar in this film a very excellent scene and it is the scene that everyone talks about after they seen that see this movie where um the characters and the story seem to step out of where they are in space and time and enter into some greater community uh and you can interpret it that how you will when you see it but i think you'll know what scene i'm talking about where time and space seem to like break down under the weight of the of the goodness of the characters and maybe the music um

(41:12):
Another, I think the great aspect, one of the greatest aspects of it is there's no binary on good or evil in here. I mean, even though there there there the binaries that we are usually associate with good and evil are kind of assaulted in this. We see true evil in this movie.

Dave (41:29):
Yeah.

which we're going to talk about what maybe Ryan Coogler is saying true evil is in our spoiler section. But the movie is called Sinners. And we're kind of given the idea that the people at the Duke Joint have made their mistakes, that Sammy, his you know, he's doing the best he can, but he is participating in kind of a... yeah um a lifestyle that at least the the structure of his community his father don't necessarily consider to be one that's going to lead to good results uh but at the same time there's a there's a community around that and ryan kugler has talked about and michael b jordan and have talked about how we're all sinners and uh even though we all are involved in this thing we can still

(42:11):
come together and then we get confronted with that real evil which is a vampire uh evil bloodthirsty vampire so it's got history it's got horror it's got hope um it's i i can't think of another movie this year that is better as much as i liked companion uh but i i think this is on another level like it's at least four stars possibly five stars you know i hate to give five stars because that's my perfectionist side but it's it's truly a movie that

Dave (42:30):
No, this is...

I thought I can't really find too many faults with it.

Dave (42:44):
But did we like it?

Yes. There is such a movie, Dave, that you can watch and you can say, well, that movie was pretty much perfect. But then you're like, but it had no soul. I don't think anyone would walk out of Sinners, especially if they stay for that second scene, that second post-credits scene, thinking that this movie had no soul.

Dave (43:03):
David Myers,

Yeah. yeah

Dave (43:09):
This is a yeah that's.

And it's a movie about habit keeping your soul, yeah.

Dave (43:10):
David Myers, So soul is an amazing word to use to describe this film, and I think a lot of people are going to be wondering about the title. David Myers, we're going to be talking about that a lot in the spoiler section.
David Myers, But. John Kiefer- really encourage you if you haven't seen the film yet stop now go see it and then come back and listen to the spoiler section part of our part of our episode because. John Kiefer- We are hopefully gonna you know I always think it's funny people always go why was it called back.

(43:46):
John Kiefer- This movie is called called centers for for a very good reason, and I think it will surprise you.

Well, you know what Billy Corgan said when asked, why did you call the song mayonnaise?

Dave (43:57):
ah

He said, i opened my refrigerator.

Dave (44:00):
oh
I love it.

And you can believe that if you want. That's the answer.

Dave (44:08):
Well, he would have mayonnaise.

Ah, yes. And if you know that song, that means you have seen Sinners. um the We are now in the spoiler section where we will discuss those beautiful magicians musicians and what they represent.
um First, let's talk about that song, ah Dave.
We're going to argue in our thematic discussion, we're going to, you know, it's kind going to be an explainer. We're going to take, we're going to try to tell you, or at least take a stab at, take a vampire teeth stab at um what we think is going on with the symbolism of of the vampires here.

Dave (44:59):
Oh.

Beside the movie being fun, you don't need any of this to enjoy sinners. It's fun on its literal vampire ah blockbuster sense, but we do think something's going on here with the vampires. And I think,
Pick Poor Robin Clean, which is like our first introduction to the vampires as vampires. Like we saw him running away from the vampire hunters, the Native American vampire hunters that are chasing him. But our real first introduction, true introduction, is them introducing themselves and trying to get into the juke joint.

(45:33):
And they play this song, Pick Poor Robin Clean.

Dave (45:37):
It's Robbie.

It's not Robbie, Dave.

Dave (45:41):
You sure it's picked for Robbie?

Why would you pick Robbie? It's about eating a bird, eating ah a robin.

Dave (45:49):
It is?

Yes.

Dave (45:50):
ah thought it was I thought it was about you know when you pickpocket somebody or something. Boy, I tell you what there, I got that all wrong there, man.

All right, you you just sit back for a minute then, Dave.

Dave (45:58):
laughter laughter laughter

We should have went over this together, I guess. I'm sorry.
So the literal sense of the it the literal sense of this of the song is, I got a robin and I'm going to eat him. That's what it's that's what it's about. Well, that's the literal sense, but it's really about, you know, i don't know if I can say what it's really about, but it's about taking something something for everyone thing they got. Right.

(46:24):
But the but the literal words of the song are I wouldn't eat the you know, I'm eating this bird, this Robin. um And I think that's what the vampires are trying to do to the people in the juke joint.
They, just like this song, which I guess is a blues song. People say it's a blues song. I think it's a folk song, but it is most famously covered by blues artists. So let's call it a blues song.

(46:47):
They take it, just like they take this song and they turn it into this kind of corny bluegrass version of it. they They pick the song clean of its nutrients value. They want to take Sammy and everyone else's stories and songs and make them their own and probably not for the better.
So that is our introduction to say introduction to the vampires. They are representative of cultural appropriation and they want to eat the beautiful, delicious robin meat of the culture inside the juke joint.

(47:20):
Welcome to the thematic section.

Dave (47:21):
uh you know mike there's a great scene with delroy lindow and he's in the car and he's talking about how he uh to sammy and to uh one of the brothers and he is talking about how he became a musician and it had to do i believe he was in jail and the the you know guards found out that he could play and they took him and this other guy and they they stuck him in this white folks mansion And there were these, you know, kind of prototypical white rich people in this story.

(47:57):
And he says, then they had money. And then it is pointed out, Sammy, Sammy asked him something. And he says, Well, got to understand, these, these people like the blues.
They really like the blues, but they don't, they don't like the people who make Andrew think that that's a good bit of foreshadowing about the vampires and what they do, and this bit about cultural appropriation really interesting.

Yeah, it's a great scene. I think that's one of the most powerful scenes of the film. I think, ah you know, I don't know if I picked up on it, but I think you're right. They don't. The vampires don't want to know or be intimately familiar with the conditions that bring about the art that they just want to suck down.
Delicious. um And I think an interesting part of that scene is since you brought it up, ah is that it's a powerful, heart hurtful memory.

(48:59):
and they deal with that pain by instantly going into some blues, right? that That rolls right into a blues song, and that's how the blues is dealing with that pain.

Dave (49:11):
I think that's something that people don't often think of when they think of the blues, because they think of the blues is, you know, like you said, it's sort of a consumable, really fun, you know, it's almost kind of a sexy, you know, thing.
And here you are seeing the blues having a function that isn't just entertainment. it's It's about the survival psychologically and emotionally of the person who feels compelled to,

(49:47):
you know, provide a different context for what they're going through than the world can offer them.

Yeah, i I don't know. i think people, I don't know how people interpret the blues, but i always get the sense that ah people see the blues as like, you know, more gritty and real than other music. And I think this movie plays on that.
I've never got the sense that the blues is commercialized more than any other form of music.

Dave (50:13):
and what's a Not so much commercial, it's just that, yeah, you see the blues a lot in our culture, but it's usually some guy on a stage and playing and doing just something really intense with the guitar and kind of get that, oh, this is a feel thing and it's fun and it's cool. And here, you watch Delroy Lindo

(50:40):
use this to
to to to cope with his memories and and what he's been going through.

Hmm.

Dave (50:53):
And you move into it that way, not because somebody came up on the stage and was an emcee of the show or something and said, hey, no, the fabulous Blues Brothers, you know.

So for the historical context of. where we're at in this film. It's 1932 Mississippi, incredibly divided Jim Crow South. And Smokestack Brothers have come down from Chicago. it's It's alluded to the fact that they turned the Italians and Irish people on each other in Chicago and stole their stuff.

(51:24):
um that's very if you miss that in the film that's kind of what's implied ah in both the um the shack where uh smoke meets his uh ex-wife or his mother of his child that died um it's also implied by them having irish whiskey and italian wine so it's implied in there so that's a little minor detail if you missed i thought that was interesting so they come back down to mississippi and they're going to try to make it their own they want to set up their own thing

Dave (51:47):
yeah

Screw those Italians. Screw those Irish bastards. We want to make our own thing that just is reflective as us. We are going to open black-owned juke joint. And you know it's a sanctuary. And what have you been calling it, Dave?

Dave (52:06):
I've been calling it it a temple, but yeah, a sanctuary is a really good word too. and And they talk a lot about freedom as they're setting it up. It's beautiful day to be free as they're off in the on the dirt road getting the tarp covered truck so they can drive the supplies in and start building.

and they are free they're building up their own future uh future independent of the oppressive power structure or that permeates around them um and we would like to say like so that's going on and that you you feel how lot alive um the juke joint is going to be even during that that daytime scene when they're just getting it ready uh and there are so there are ah you know we have the snake scene that subtly suggests that there could be trouble around the corner but keeps the pace going um elsewhere vampire is being chased through a field and he runs into a house um we'll come back to them

Dave (53:01):
yeah

So as as time goes on, the sun's going down and the juke joint gets jumping. We see that culture on full display. We see all of the people are coming in. It's like, are you going to sing tonight? I'm going to sing the the girl that I forget the character's names, but who Sammy has a relationship with, a little quick relationship with.

(53:23):
she sings they're all coming together and the power of that cultural moment the power of that you know let's call it blood that blood is so rich and thick that it permeates the the the membrane of reality all right let me use some for some language here dave

Dave (53:42):
That's romantic, gez Mike.

It permeates the that the the membrane of reality so that time and space and come together. And it's foreshadowed in the beginning, right? They talk about people who could commune with the past and the present through their through there music. The past and the present fold into this moment.
We think we we're seeing the barn burning down. It's not actually burning down. It's the reality. That that moment is burning into the past and the present. And so we see...

Dave (54:13):
we're gonna Are we talking about the scene?

We see base, we're talking word we're talking about the scene where time and space ah folded in on themselves, to quote.

Dave (54:15):
We're talking about the scene?

um I forget the who that's ah that's a quote for, but yeah, that's the scene I'm talking about.

Dave (54:26):
oh

And that is the scene I referred to as everyone's going to think about it.

Dave (54:27):
So stay Sammy comes up. Sammy comes up, right? And it's time for him to play.

Hmm.

Dave (54:33):
Delroy Lindo has been playing. He invites Sammy up. um Tell Sammy to to tell the people where he's from. and sammy does that and he starts to play and as sammy plays a reality around him changes uh it's stunning it is it involves well mike what what what happens next

Well, what happens is like I described, ah you know, much like in the ah Black Panther scene, which I loved, the past comes alive. We see African ancestors, Chinese ancestors of the Chinese people who are working there, people of Chinese origin.
um we see the fu We see the future. We see bass players and guitarists of the 60s or 70s, you know, kind of like maybe Prince-type figures. We see...

Dave (55:28):
break dancers.

MCs, break dancers, rappers, all come together for this party, to quote the streets. I'm just so heavy on quotes here.

Dave (55:38):
And of course, these are these are sort of like, they're they're not spectral figures.

um

Dave (55:41):
They actually look like everybody else in terms of being solid and and and and there.

they are there in spirit and and the people don't seem to be able to see them, but there is no division between, you know, there it's like ah a cool breeze blowing through your window.
You know, it's there, you know, it's there, um but you don't maybe put it together all the time.

Dave (55:59):
yeah and doing this

um so you get a sense of like this yeah it's like this liveliness is coming from somewhere else um and it sets the barn on fire it sets reality on fire and that is a beacon for the forces of evil

Dave (56:18):
and it it takes on it takes on and you have to be careful when you use words like this because I don't want to misrepresent what Coogler is trying to do there, but it does take on a sort of sacred quality.
You know, um there's something more going on than just music. It's the essence of what music can do, of how it can connect history through time and people to their ancestors.

(56:47):
And it is quite possibly the most stunning scene of any movie this year. I made that I meant met might be hyperbole. Maybe I need to see the movie again.
But I think particularly you mentioned that there are Chinese characters that appear and that we have a pair of Chinese people that are happened to be working the bar there that are friends of the the the smoke and stack.

Mm-hmm. 327 00:57:18,820 --> 000000000:57 Dave

(57:41):
Yeah, I think the the Chinese dancers are to imply to us that it is a shared experience that can transcend. It's not just for people of African descent. Would white people have something appear? I don't know, probably.
In the opening scene of...

Dave (57:55):
Lawrence Welk would be in there.

The opening scene that says that the, you know, the Irish had ah similar figures in there. So it's, I don't think there's any reason why you wouldn't see that portrayed if there were people of of that ancestry present.
Yeah.

Dave (58:11):
Yeah.

but perhaps i'm wrong i don't know there's an there are alternative inter interpretations but um i don't know if what we need to get in that but all white people are vampires like we're about to describe but i don't think that's what it's going for but if someone had that interpretation i could completely

Dave (58:15):
I don't know.

understand the evidence to support it anyway it attracts the vampire vampires who all just happen to be white at this point they see the burning power and they crave it at least remick does because we're not sure really and i think this is one of the interesting aspects of the plot we're not sure really how autonomous renix turned followers are i don't personally think they're very autonomous and we'll talk about that soon

Dave (58:31):
Right.
right well

(58:54):
I. Well, Sammy, you know, Sammy's music, you know, that sort of sets the roof on fire, whatever. And you get that sense of it's almost astral. And so what's connecting with Remick is, is that power.
You know, it's all representative of a power. um And it's, you know, it's mentioned at the beginning of the film that that sometimes people can do music so powerfully. There's a person who can do music so powerful that it draws evil, not just good.

(59:29):
um That's just the property of it. um And Remick, as he starts to turn ah ah black characters in this film, you know, it it seems like he's in the background controlling everything and that there's enough of their personality that there's there's's there's like a simulacrum of them left.

(01:00:02):
If that makes sense, i and don't know if the movie really like tells us exactly but it's heavily intimated that Remick is the Remick is the puppet master.

Michael Cockerill (01:00:03):
Mm-hmm.
and let's Let's continue going on in a linear... We haven't introduced Remick yet. Maybe we can come to a conclusion. Maybe I'll get you on one side or the other day by the time we walk through the whole thing.

Dave (01:00:25):
right.

um so But Remick is the name of the leader of the vampires. He's played by yeah Jack O'Connell. Did I get his name right?

Dave (01:00:32):
Yes. This is

Yes, Jack O'Connell. He's played by Jack O'Connell, who really wasn't promoted in the trailers or anything, and I was very surprised that... um of course when you got michael b jordan i mean who you're going to promote but still i was surprised but that's what you do dave when you're promoting a horror movie you keep the the the monster a little hidden you uh anyway uh so he sees the fire they see the fire he or they still to be determined um and they come and they they can't get in very symbolic and important aspect they need to be invited in

Dave (01:01:06):
That is a trope of vampires throughout the history of vampires, cinema, and literature, yeah and even folklore. You have to invite the vampire in. Some narratives make you say that and say no.

and i think i i think everyone knows that i think that's that's true and but i don't i think what's interesting in this is that if we are talking about the vampires as an allegory for cultural assimilation an allegory for the consumption of a culture um for maybe less than the original purpose intent the original uh cultural event uh was providing um if we're considering them as allegories for cultural appropriation needing to be invited in takes on kind of like a new meaning it takes on ah meaning of you know maybe keep your fences high or

(01:01:57):
or be careful who you let in. um So they hear the music and they come over and they play that song, Pick Poor Robin Clean, which we used as our transitional element.
And the song itself is about taking the body, you know, taking nourishment from the body of a poor creature, a robin. um You know, have like I hope I've convinced Dave that's what the song's about.

Dave (01:02:20):
ah

It's not about pickpocketing someone.

Dave (01:02:21):
ah

So it's a song about taking someone's stuff, really, their body.

Dave (01:02:26):
and you Can it be a Robin named Robbie?

And it's done... ah yeah that's what it is and anyway and they do it in this um a lot of people are saying it's stiff and soulless i don't i feel like it's a pretty good rendition but it's a slow bluegrass um folksy kind of pretty corny i think we can all agree on corny rendition the app

Dave (01:02:45):
Yeah.
Well, and they're dancing through it in a manner that is kind of like reduces the thing almost to almost to satire.

And so, yeah, they're kind of doing like a ah horrible version of what this song, ah I guess people associate with the blues. um They're doing a version of it that's the opposite of what we've seen in the juke joint, a a pulsating, sweaty, ah sensual performance. So it's kind of like the opposite of it.
Not necessarily bad, but the total opposite and just seems very out of place. um So I think there is like a little bit of hint right there from the get go that you know The vampires, they they want something, but they can't quite get how to do it right.

(01:03:32):
And they're trying to sneak their way in. um So they have something, and this is also how they got into the white people's minds. They have something, Remick carries something with him that appeals to everyone.
uh and it is what he uses to get in he can't get them they're well guarded um which i think is a commentary on the strength of black communities by the way the fact that they are you know often you see i think often the the african-american people are are the first to die but i think here they're portrayed very cautious and strong kind contra you're right in the horror genre is what i meant um so they don't let them in

Dave (01:04:08):
in horror movies, yeah.

and they They say, you can leave. We aren't interested. There's something up with you. It's just something's not right. So they ah wander off real slow day. and But they have something.
Now, I'm curious to see if you if you if you see where I'm going with this.

Dave (01:04:31):
Oh, i yeah, this is good, yeah.

But they have something that they need. And what is it that Remick carries with him that he uses to get into people's house?

Dave (01:04:39):
Gold, gold coins.

He has two... Two gold coins from another era. Or what is it that she asked? Like, what kind of money is this? And he says it's from another time and place. um And they she should have ran back to that barn as soon as she heard that.

Dave (01:04:53):
Yep. Yeah.

ah because She should have asked, why is it here? But she didn't. She was ah ah human. And... I don't want to make... all right, Dave, this is where I might go a little controversial.
I don't know. The fact that they used the woman who's been passing as white and...

Dave (01:05:13):
Yes, the Haley Stanfield character part of the story.

they used her to be like the way to get into the she's the first person from the juke joint turned i don't want to make too much of that except perhaps that there is a threat in giving up yourself like she was more susceptible to it well she was sent out by smoke because they thought they would welcome her more because she looks white um

Dave (01:05:38):
Now I thought that she had to convince him i thought that that she was like Let me go out there and just see you know about these people.

Yeah, I think think you're right. But um she she, I guess it was her more her thinking that they'd be more welcoming her to her, which is, i don't know true or not, but... um

Dave (01:06:00):
There's this curiosity that it implies that I think is interesting to your argument because it implies that she's

the

Dave (01:06:10):
you know, if she had, you know, she's going out there to see if they can take some money from them, basically, like, hey, you know, if I can go out there and find out these people are good, I'll just bring, I'll bring them back. They'll spend money. We want money. That's a good thing.
It's, it's a type, you know, it's, it's not, we want to have community with these people. It's not, we want, you know,

Yeah, they want the money, basically.

Dave (01:06:38):
when they want the money. Yeah.

They want to see if they have money. um And I really think that is the mechanism through which cultural appropriation gets its claws into minority or smaller cultures or or let you know into non-dominant cultures.
um And I think that's kind of being overtly said here. And that's all of our weakness, right? We live in a capitalistic fallen world here. we're all were None of us are immune to that.

(01:07:06):
um So she she asked she gets she catches on that they are dangerous and even though they have money um she doesn't actually let them in because it just feels too off right but it's too late they have they turn her and into a vampire and she goes in and turn smoke.
um But I think the the suggestion that the money is their way in is is a commentary on ah selling out and you know you you know putting your financial future before the safety of your community and the preciousness of your art, perhaps.

(01:07:43):
think I'm going too far there, Dave.

Dave (01:07:43):
And no, and i and I think this is a good point too to point out that by this time in the narrative, we learn that many of the people that are going to this juke joint are people who've worked in the fields and they've they've worked in an environment where they're paid in what is more or less like a worthless script um um rather than money that you can just take and spend anywhere.

(01:08:07):
And so they are presenting these wood literal wooden nickels or whatever else um, and this infuriates, uh, um, um, smoke, right?
The smoke that makes mad.

hey i kind of got confused at this point but i think it was stack it makes more sense that it would be stack i am

Dave (01:08:24):
Okay. So it infuriates stack. He's like, we can't do this. This is going to bankrupt us. Everybody has to pay.
And they're like, look, it's opening the trial, these gambits to convince him. that they they they have to be generous and everything. um And so you feel that tension.

(01:08:46):
And then um that is sort of the dividing of, of smoke and stack ultimately. um Because that's what leads to her going outside to try to get the money.

Don't re-revise what I said after some thought, because i now I remember um Smoke goes and meets his wife, and he has a negative opinion of what he calls make-believe money, right?
And she's getting paid for it. And stack Stack is okay with getting it.

Dave (01:09:15):
Right. ridethe

And I think this is our first inclination that Stack is willing to compromise with the society. That script is money that can only be spent at the Plantation General store.
Yeah. which that is not what smoke is going for smoke wants out of being dependent on the plantation general store he wants his own us dollar independence um stack is is is a little bit more willing and we'll see how far he's willing to go in the future to compromise to get power what he wants at least that's my read on it um

Dave (01:09:55):
I think, yeah. And I think that the idea that one of them is pulled in one direction and the other is pulled in the other um is, you know, one of the central, like, really good emotional hooks in the movie.
And they're in their the way their characters develop and whatnot and what they what winds up happening to

So let's let's press fast fast forward. Vampires come. People get starting turned into vampires.

Dave (01:10:21):
them. ah

And that beautiful celebratory, you know, ruckus of a party gets broken up and everyone leaves. Unfortunately, when they leave, they get turned into vampires.
And let's I think and the reason kind of want to fast forward, you know, because we can't really do justice to the violence and the in the fighting and the action.

Dave (01:10:42):
David Daley, could go through this entire movie plot by by by by plot point I mean by the time everybody leaves they've been told to leave because one of the brothers has been killed by her.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave (01:10:52):
David Daley,

And they don't realize it's a supernatural occurrence. They just think some crazy stuff is going on.

Dave (01:10:57):
yeah Delroy lindos like get out and they all they all go.

um
And so eventually most of the people are turned into vampires by Remick. And they put on and they've left that celebratory protected sanctuary temple, as Dave calls it,
where they were all independently doing their own thing and they were moving around independently, ah celebration, ah just like a raucous, you know, a raucous celebration. And they go outside and they are turned into vampires. And I think one of the genius scenes of this and the truly, truly risky scene, possibly riskier than the time and space collapsing scene inside, they have the turned people dance to an Irish jig.

Dave (01:11:38):
Yes.

which is which is insane. That was written down, Dave, and it was filmed and it worked. It makes you appreciate art a great director here.

Dave (01:11:44):
it
and And you're watching all of these characters, white and black, um who have been turned. And it is signaling, again, something about cultural appropriation.
and what you lose when you give up the wrong things and what you have to safeguard.

they are moving rhythmically on cue together to remix whims all of their originality all of their power is gone they are i watched for this on the second viewing i didn't catch this as much on the first viewing but you exactly got it they have he has consumed them and made them part of himself and we learn as he talks to the people who remain inside alive our heroes that he has all of their memories and all of their um you know he's inherited all of their memories and all of their knowledge uh but and that and that is really what he wants and he promises them a life an immortal life where they can all and just like he says when he first came they asked him he was a clan member when he first came he said he believed in equality he is offering that again as in his vampire form in his honest vampire form

(01:13:04):
He says that he wants them to ah be together, love each other. And there's this humorous scene where it's like, what are we supposed to be doing out here? And and and one character who is controlled by Remick says, loving each other.
and And that sounds nice on its surface. Yeah.

Dave (01:13:23):
What does the one woman vampire say?

and

Dave (01:13:27):
She says, you got to understand. It's going to be beautiful. You just got to think about the fact, not think about the fact we're going to have to kill you.

yeah so so remick says he believes in equality um but his version of equality at least if we're to interpret the irish jig is one where he is calling the shots um they are not out there dancing like the jute joint they or anything resembling african-american culture of which all the people except for remick are and his two white people who he turned earlier they are dancing an irish jig um so whether or not he believes you know Remick is not he I get the sense that he honestly believes or maybe it's just the his nature of a vampire that what he's offering is better he's selfish but he also believes that what he's offering uh is is better um so there is a tension there that I think is very interesting um and

(01:14:27):
You don't really see the people inside the juke joint too seduced. They are pretty opposed to joining Remick. Except once they are turned, they seem more open to it.
um You know, we see the turned ah smoke say that, or the term stack tells smoke that he has no vision. and Smoke doesn't actually.

Dave (01:14:49):
which is really Which got a big laugh when we saw it.

Yeah.

Dave (01:14:51):
Because he kind of talked his way in.

And it is a very funny line.

Dave (01:14:53):
And his brother's finally like, na no, no, no, no. And then he's like, man, ain't got no vision. He says that to Remick. and And at that moment, you just think that if that's what vision is, that's like the worst thing ever.

so

Dave (01:15:11):
your yeah Your vision is to become this automaton almost.

so yeah so see yeah so so it does seem like um stack has a plan for them all to become vampires and be powerful and live as powerful beings i don't know if they're going to kill remick or what they're going to do about the autonomic tom situation but the vampire um

Dave (01:15:17):
automaton almost

stack does suggest that you know he's like he after ah mary's killed or not mary but um uh what's her name smoke's girlfriend after smoke's lover is killed um you know stacks is that was art my plan was to turn you all that you ruined it by killing your mother of your child or your lover whose name i can't remember apologies to that to that character um and i think that that is that is kind of like the tension that's being put up here the the selling out and letting someone take your culture for the exchange of money or power um i might be taking the metaphor a little too far here but hey it's it's we're doing this for fun um so remic as as cultural appropriation kind of represents losing your soul to live on forever and you know i could go out and i could get

(01:16:23):
um
let's not i'm not gonna name any names but i could go out and i could get a let's say call him a sold out blues artist uh it's album very easily um rather than going to a live performance or you know we fortunately we live in such times where you can get all sorts of things now don't want anything you want but let's just say elvis because it's the easiest what the i could go out i could go out and get version of the 1950s rhythm and blues in 1962 small town america but it is devoid of all of the things that made rhythm and blues are the 1950s um special and unique and belonging to that time and place

Dave (01:17:05):
i'm going to you know ah um and i'm and i'm I'm going to say this, I'm not going to take it any further than this, but you know in the Christian church, one of the things we talk about is the incarnation, Jesus being God and man.
And central to that theologically is not power, it's being with us. being with us Remick can't be with anybody.

(01:17:32):
Remick Remick is Remick Remick is Remick is on his own. And this business, um this business that that has to do with, um do I just become one of you and give up myself?
No, because that's not what the incarnationality of relationship is about. um there's a mystery there where you are forming hybridities where there's you and there's a person and then there's whatever you and a person are together.

(01:18:09):
And I think that that's really
just sort of a testament to this film that, you know, whether or not that, for instance, that particular thing that I'm bringing up was intended, i perhaps probably not. It nonetheless tracks pretty well. And I think that This is a kind of movie that's going to like spark all kinds of conversation about all kinds of things, no matter what aspect of it you are you are talking about.

um yeah uh i i i don't know how to react i mean i think that's that's very true i think you could that's a very interesting insight into uh the choices that they're make making

Dave (01:18:58):
Yeah, I hope that, you know, it's funny because movies like this come out and, you know one of the things that Mike and I talk about is do we do we talk about the thing that to us maybe seems a little simpler because it's easier for us?
Or do we do that because it's so quick in our culture that what seems obvious and wise um and true just as missed in favor of what's entertaining or in favor of what's, you know, makes people feel whatever way it makes them feel.

(01:19:42):
um And so going through films the way we do, this is why we do it. um It isn't just to hear ourselves talk, it's hopefully ah to inspire others to go out and talk.

Yeah, I hope people get ideas from listening. You know, that's that's why we call our show mind frames. I hope that yeah this is, by the way, the easy the easy choice. This is the easy, supposedly easy discussion. But maybe it's not that easy. The other one would have been a lot harder to kind of like audio essay into.
um but the ending, you know, I think this movie has a truly interesting ending. It has, every movie has two endings now, as I as i say so many times. So the first ending of this movie um is they defeat the vampires, right?

(01:20:29):
The light that Sammy possesses and the sun are enough to overcome the vampires and they burn. They can't stand up to Sammy and what he represents.
ah He walks away, drives away actually, with broken guitar in hand as a as a memory of not just that night, but also everything that that night represented as freedom and community and gets to live on into the future.

(01:20:57):
That's the first ending. The second ending, we see Sammy. He's still kicking, ah now paid played by ah Buddy Guy.

Dave (01:21:07):
So he's about 90.

and

Dave (01:21:08):
I

who's about 90, but he's playing like a 70-year-old Sammy. But it works because Buddy's in good shape. Takes care of himself. And or or least i by Blue's standards, he's a freaking health freak. But yeah, he's doing good.

Dave (01:21:23):
i mean, i interviewed Buddy Guy 30 years ago, and I got to tell you, I was astonished to see him in this movie because I thought that he had passed away um because he was old when I talked to him.
um

He was born old, Dave.

Dave (01:21:39):
I got told, where I tell you about the town?

can we Can we finish the ending the discussion of the ending here? You got any more stories, Grandpa, you want to throw in?

Dave (01:21:45):
i got so where there tell about the time

So Buddy Guy plays an older version of Sammy and Stack and Mary come in. They're still living. By the way, Smoke went to heaven and got to see his baby.
But Stack and Mary... team ah You've seen the movie, but... Throw that in there. um Smoke can't live in the world without um Stack, and he seems pretty wounded.

(01:22:13):
He can't like his light his own cigarette, and his name is Smoke. So you can kind of figure... not too light a symbolism that smoke smoked. So he goes to heaven and gets to be with where he belongs, or at least the place where he is with his his his mother and child.
um Anyway, but Stack continues to live in this undead, trapped form. He's the sellout. you know He sold his music to the record store. And he meets Buddy Guy.

(01:22:39):
i don't know.

Dave (01:22:40):
he didn't sell his music he sold his soul buddy guys are one of the music oh

No judgment. No judgment. I don't know is going
He sold his soul. I know, but what I'm saying is that if we're talking about cultural appropriation, you know he has given into that temptation and got the two gold coins. Or least that's one interpretation. I think it's pretty open.
Maybe he beat the system. That's another interpretation. And you can, you know, Michael at Mindframes.com, I would love to hear your opinions on it.

Dave (01:23:05):
there's going to be a lot of yeah there's going to be a lot of people talking about the ending of this movie

yeah but there's also there's also an interpretation of where a stack beat the system and i understand that one um anyway uh so where was i so in the second ending i think is the most interesting and and i think it's because of that exact tension that we're talking about of like whether you know i think the movie heavily implies that sammy's choice to not become a vampire to continue living is the right choice and that is the purest choice and that is why in the end of the film stack wants to hear sammy play so bad because he can't get that even though he can live forever and he's all powerful and he's incredibly powerful but he can't get that anymore and he misses it just like remick missed his people um he's becoming kind of like a new remick

Dave (01:23:57):
he says like he says that He says, I miss the sun that he says i missed the sunlight. I miss seeing the sun, but I really miss the reel because they don't play the reel anymore.
and And, you know, too, he even offers ah sam the older Sammy the chance to turn.

Of course.

Dave (01:24:19):
You know, he says, I promised, you know, I promised that I wouldn't turn you. ah promised ah um my brother I wouldn't turn you. But do you want to be turned? Because I'll i'll do it.
And it's a really curious moment because it humanizes this character that you would just totally think is a completely evil character. But, um you know, one of the things the movie doesn't deal with is the fact that Now that Remick is gone, is there a puppet master still?

(01:24:54):
You know, who is? Would that be what happens to Sammy if he turns? I mean, just in a lot of really fun possibilities if you want to write some fan fiction.

so that's the uh that's the first ending or that's the second ending there's a 0.5 ending i don't think i have enough to uh enough to think about that but uh i think it's an interesting musing on what it means to be your authentic self and the cost of giving into power and uh selling your soul to the devil irish vampires whatever you whoever is offering you a gold coins i think it makes you think twice but um ah Very, very interesting. I'm glad the second ending was on there.

(01:25:37):
um I think, you know, there's just so many minor, and I'm going to tell an old old man story now. There's just so many minor, I'm going to do a caveat, a detour as well.

Dave (01:25:44):
Ah.

but There's just so many minor great choices in the film. um Like that scene is so perfect because you see Buddy Guy and you know it's Sam and you know it's later.
And somehow they trick you. You are thoroughly tricked. At least I am thoroughly tricked. um when they're like there's a couple people out there that uh want to pay 100 bucks to meet you and like and buddy guys like yes of course sammy and then he's like all right come on in and at the exact moment sammy realizes what's happening you realize what's happening and uh that's pretty genius filmmaking dave

Dave (01:26:26):
Oh, yeah, no, it's a great it's a great turnaround. um And, you know, yeah I've seen movies that do that exact thing where the character comes back, you know, that and you go, oh, I know what's going to happen. So and so is going to walk in. The vampires are going to walk in.
But what are they going to do? I mean, they're not going to fight this 90 year old man. um But. The you know, we have any, you know, the

(01:26:58):
yeah You had mentioned, because there's another ending. And the other ending, yes, there's ah there's another ending.

there' a There's another third ending, yes. Yep.

Dave (01:27:08):
And in it, we see Sammy. Seems like he's in in the church building. And he's playing the blues on a guitar. Now, the guitar he had had been destroyed. 495 01:27:20,680 --> 000000001:27 Dave

(01:27:49):
An interesting thing about um about that is from a quote by Von Sheru. She was a PhD professor at Ford Moore College.
that was hired ah to come on and be the expert on hoodoo and the mixing of spirituality and music in the film.

(01:28:16):
And she had this to say in an interview, which we'll give you a link to in the and the notes in the text on the on the on the page on our site.
Blues music was the first American music to be referenced as the devil's music, he continued. That judgment of the practitioners of the music and folks who engage in the culture around it is at the heart of this movie.

(01:28:40):
That conversation and acknowledgement that we are all sinners. And if you point the finger at somebody calling them a sinner, you also have to point the finger back to yourself.
And that, you know, is talking about integration, really. It's talking about things coming together. And so to see Sammy in that environment at the end,

(01:29:03):
You have a theory about that. And i think it's an interesting I think it's an interesting theory.

Yeah, of course.

Dave (01:29:08):
But to see Sammy playing a blues version, the devil's music version of this little in an atmosphere that suggests some form of reconciliation, of integration,
of assimilation, ah not assimilation, but, you know, integration, that that feeling of like rightly putting things together ah is is, I just think it's a genius stroke in a film.

(01:29:39):
And it does shed a little light, I think, on the on the reason it's called Sinners.

Hmm.

Dave (01:29:47):
Kugler went on to note, even the most religious person would admit they're a sinner. Everybody is. It's a term of judgment, but it's also a term that's welcoming as well.
In a Christian context, that's who Jesus spends the most time with, sinners.

Hmm.

Dave (01:30:04):
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting, really fun. So I don't think this is a Christian movie per se, or that Kugler is pushing Christianity. i want to be very clear about that.
But I do think that spirituality is shown to be a very valued thing in this film and a very worthwhile enterprise. And, um, Sammy is a survivor. He clings to his music.

(01:30:30):
Um, Because to him, that is a form of spirituality. Putting the the juke joint together was a spiritual endeavor, a search for freedom, a search for um for escape from oppression and and and and and the harshness of this world.
So great title for a movie and great way to that film.

all right if you are uh i definitely don't have the uh my thoughts are pretty similar on the on the final post credits if you take out all of the aspects about christianity i i don't i know it's in a church but uh how how could i say that how could i say that that when it's in a church but um i just i just see it yeah i just see it i see it pretty similar

Dave (01:31:11):
and like yeah That would be obvious.
Yeah, no, i and that would be taking it too far to imply that this is a, you know, quote, Christian movie or or anything of the sort. I think he's dealing in cultural issues, but he's seeing spirituality as ah vital part of that and ah and a positive spirituality who do is a positive spirituality in this film.

and we
And we we actually didn't discuss it, but there are several points in the in the film where Christianity is indicted with oppression.

Dave (01:31:53):
Yes.

um there There are some discrete points where it is. So yeah, like explicitly, it's a saying it was forced on us.

Dave (01:31:57):
Fairly. Fairly so. Absolutely fairly so.

It's not true. The vampires are immune to it. There's like some explicit, yeah.

Dave (01:32:08):
Yeah, there are no crosses levied at the vampires.

Yeah.
No, they wouldn't work. The vampires are totally immune to Christianity.

Dave (01:32:14):
Right. In fact, ah yes.

They like it it. Remick says that the Lord's Prayer brings him comfort.

Dave (01:32:19):
Yeah.

So yeah, no cross is working on him.

Dave (01:32:22):
But the weird thing is, is movies that usually go out of their way to do that usually are overtly trying to be extremely anti-religious.

i

Dave (01:32:32):
And this is not a movie that's anti-religious.

No, I don't think it's anti-religious. It just has a certain view on the history of Christianity and

Dave (01:32:40):
Yeah, it's a historical commentary on things that are very true in the church.

I like that last scene.

Dave (01:32:48):
My teeth.

want to You want to hear it where I land on the last scene?

Dave (01:32:51):
Absolutely.

So I think you have a couple options. You have it's before all of the events happen um or it's it's after. OK, but you're like, how could it be after?
um I do think that like I think similar to what you're what you're saying, Dave, it is a it's like ah an echo. It's a it's a post redemption echo.

(01:33:15):
one of the themes we could have went with was sin and redemption. We chickened out folks. That, that, that theme was too dicey, but, but if, um, the judgment, let's, let's, let's have like a little fucking, excuse my language.

Dave (01:33:23):
Yep. yep

Let's have a quick cap of what that would have been. If it would have happened, if, if, if we're all sinners and we're all bad and we all need redemption as his father was kind of saying, his, and he's in his father's church.
Um,
sammy gets it through his music and which he uses to defeat the vampires uh to defeat the evils of the world so at the end um we see the redeemed and and maybe i don't want to say perfected but the redeemed and the pacified and the wise sammy um Even though he's depicted as younger, he we see him in this glowing space. He's reclaimed the church, which is kind of like a, you know, it once was a symbol of rejection, but now it's a symbol of redemption. He's achieved redemption not through his father's preaching, but um through his performing the blues.

(01:34:25):
um And that's why the song choice is this little light of mine. That goodness is coming from within him. That redemption is coming from within him. it It's the light that... um you know He hasn't been silenced by the vampires or the KKK or the passage of time.

Dave (01:34:41):
Right.

So this I see that as a moment outside of outside of time. It's like an echo of the redemption that he's received, um showing that he's he's still shining even though he's faced death.
He's faced vampires, loss, um growing old. His light is still there shining through his music, and that's how I see that scene.

Dave (01:35:03):
Yeah, that I didn't get the impression that that moment was necessarily a narrative extension. In other words, like, it's months later.

no i think a lot of people that's like that that's the face value you're reading and i wanted to like uh throw water on that one but it does feel out of time and i am yeah yeah code i should have said coda i said echo but um yeah

Dave (01:35:15):
No.
It feels more like a coda. It just feels more like, hey, here's, remember this. I want you to remember this about
Well, Echo was great. I love the idea of it as an Echo, that it exists sort of outside the frame of the film, looking down on the film and and and and and and and tell

and and

Dave (01:35:37):
talking to the film about itself.

And like that moment in Black Panther, where Black Panther goes to the ancestral plane, or like that moment where the ancestors come into the juke joint, I think I almost want to feel like a hallmark of Kugler is those moments where the character travels beyond space and time and experiences something.

Dave (01:35:57):
Yeah.

So I think it kind of fits in with Kugler's MO. That's all I got. 562 01:36:03,730 --> 000000001:36 Dave

Dave (01:36:06):
I know. i think my love for this film is only going to grow as time goes on. It's such a beautiful film.

It's so not boring. It's so culturally rich. It's so respectful of of black culture. Of course it is. It's made by black people, but it's so respectful of of a culture that is often just tropified. And it's even kind of a theme in the movie that it's it's not you know, it's it's taken.
It gets the life sucked out of it by vampires. There's just so many things to love about this. It's so historically accurate. Michael B. Jordan is in there with his you know, I love Michael B. Jordan. um There's a lot to love about this movie, and I think almost anybody would enjoy it.

Dave (01:36:43):
I I I forget who said this, it was somebody had seen the film some prominent person and they had set get out um was a wake up call um centers

That's another thing that like I can't stress enough.

Dave (01:37:03):
is centers is the centers is the bleeding you know centers is is this like urgent moment in time where we're reclaiming something.

i did I do remember reading that article, and I do not but remember my... interpret my um Why am I just going to shit on some random guy right now? i'm

Dave (01:37:26):
Yeah, it

I'm just saying, I didn't love that quote, um but that's okay. I think Sinner stands on its own, and you don't need to mention every Black friend you have you know to

Dave (01:37:37):
yeah exactly.

to to to make it

Dave (01:37:39):
That's what needs not to happen here.

I don't know what Sinners and Get Out. They they have some similarities, but not enough that I'm going to write an article about it, except for one thing, which, okay. um Well, let's let's close it up, Dave.

Dave (01:37:50):
What are we doing?
What?

Next movie, we're going to do something lighter next time. Thunderbolts.

Dave (01:37:57):
That's right. Thunderbolts.

Yep.

Dave (01:38:02):
And we're going to talk like the Red ah red Guardian the whole time.

Hold on. Let me get my banjo. Sorry. Sorry. I had to practice my banjo real quick there.

Dave (01:38:08):
Oh, that's all right. We're going to talk like the Red Guardian in the whole time.

Let's get out of here.

Dave (01:38:11):
Hello, it's the wall talking about Thunderbolts.

Well, I hope we, you know, we were were a little clumsy in some points, especially where I just attacked that random essayist at the end. But, you know, I hope we expressed how ah thoroughly moved and appreciative we were of this film and all of the things that it, all the lights that it's shining out in such are and a world full of ah blood sucking, gold carrying things.

(01:38:37):
meaningless irish jigs that we all must face these days um let's get out here yes we didn't even get into how you should always let the right one in right good night

Dave (01:38:42):
right. So somebody knocks on your door tonight, two gold coins and asks if they can come in. Yeah, yeah there's a great conversation to be had around that.
Well,

yeah know this music took forever pick poor robin clean version

Dave (01:39:02):
ah

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Episode 92: Sinners

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