Curiosity is one of the most important tools we have for creating deeper connection, healthier culture, and more aligned leadership. When we slow down enough to notice and question our unconscious assumptions, we open the door to new possibilities. This, in turn, expands our sense of hope and improves our ability to collaborate with others. In this conversation, we explore how organizational culture is shaped, how we shape our personal relationships, and the role curiosity plays in shifting limiting patterns in both areas. You’ll walk away with practical ways to listen differently, ask better questions, and align your actions with the human you most want to be.
In this episode of Mindset Unlimited, I invited Danielle Marshall to join me in a conversation about why leading with curiosity is key to intentionally cultivating what you want in your business and personal life.
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- What you need to build a strong organizational culture
- Simple curiosity supporting questions that strengthen relationships in personal and professional life.
- Recognizing and reframing limiting beliefs that keep you from your potential
- Practical ways to slow down, reduce assumptions, and create more intentional connections.
Thanks for listening!
Have thoughts on this episode? Send me a voice memo: https://www.speakpipe.com/MindsetUnlimited
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Friedlander (00:00):
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
episode (00:02):
Mindset tips, tools and inspiration for women in a time
of change. I'm your host.
Valerie Friedlander, ICFcertified coach, sociologist,
intersectional feminist artist,mom and nerd. Today we are
talking about leading withcuriosity, building intentional
relationships in your businessand personal life. I talk a lot
(00:24):
about curiosity, but I realizethat I have no episodes where
that is the focus. It's likeintegrated in everything,
because it's such a criticalcomponent of everything, but I
haven't actually really focusedin on it, and as we head to the
(00:45):
end of another calendar year, itis a popular time to talk about
reflecting on where we've beenover the course of the year,
where we are now, and where wewould like to go in the new
year. And curiosity is key forthat reflection, it's key to
support us in thinkingexpansively, in getting really
(01:06):
intentional, but doing it in away that is not about beating
ourselves up, but supportive ofwhat we want to create. And so
this episode is a lot aboutusing curiosity to engage this
topic of curiosity and how itbuilds relationships and
cultures and all of the things.
I invited my colleague, DanielleMarshall, who is an equity
(01:30):
strategist, executive coach andhost of unpacked culture
Chronicles, a podcast exploringhow curiosity can bridge
cultural divides and bringpeople closer across
differences. With more than 25years in the nonprofit sector
Spanning Leadership, programdevelopment and organizational
strategy, Danielle has dedicatedher career to challenging
(01:53):
assumptions, shifting narrativesand fostering meaningful change
as a sought after coach andfacilitator, she partners with
leaders to cultivate inclusiveworkspaces, deepen cross
cultural understanding anddesign strategies that drive
both equity and impact. Her workis grounded in the belief that
transformation begins withconversation, but it's what
(02:16):
happens next that truly matters.
When we replace judgment withcuriosity, we don't just open
the door to dialog. We lay thefoundation for deeper
understanding, strongerrelationships and meaningful
action. Some of what Danielleand I talk about in this episode
(02:37):
include what you need to build astrong organizational culture,
simple curiosity, supportingquestions that strengthen
relationships in personal andprofessional life, recognizing
and reframing, limiting beliefsthat keep you from your
potential, practical ways toslow down, reduce assumptions
and create more intentionalconnections. There is so much in
(03:03):
this episode. We had such a goodtime chatting about all the
things. I know you're going tolove it. So now without further
ado, let's get started.
Welcome, Danielle. I'm soexcited to have you on mindset
unlimited.
Danielle Marshall (03:24):
Thank you, Valerie. I've been looking
forward to this. I can't wait todive into the conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (03:28):
Yes, we had such a fabulous conversation
several months ago, and I waslike, I gotta have her on. We
gotta talk about all the things.
So before we get started, whydon't you introduce yourself
just a little bit to theaudience? Sure.
Danielle Marshall (03:47):
So Danielle Marshall, I am an equity
strategist and executive coach,and primarily I find myself
working with a lot ofnonprofits. That is my
background, originally andorganizational leaders. So
directors C suite, basicallypeople who are really looking to
build healthy cultures in theirorganization, but also want to
(04:09):
focus on all of the identitiesthat we individually bring in as
part of their inclusionstrategies.
Valerie Friedlander (04:16):
Love it.
Okay. So first question is, whatis a limit that you took for
granted, that you have sinceunlearned?
Danielle Marshall (04:26):
I think this is such a powerful question. I
think the the initial thing, andquite frankly, one that I still
have to remind myself abouttoday, is that I am enough. I
think so many of us take thatfor granted that we are lacking
in some way, shape or form. Youknow, I am not smart enough, I'm
(04:47):
not tall enough, pretty enough,funny enough, dot, dot, dot.
That sometimes we just have tobe okay being who we are in that
moment and realizing we arefully functional people. And
that is, in fact. Not enough. Itis. We're worthy already.
Valerie Friedlander (05:04):
Yeah, yeah.
That is so important, and somany of us need to constantly
remind ourselves or be remindedof that, because that's such the
programming in a society wherethe culture of the overall
society is on fitting in versusbelonging. Absolutely so. I
think that moves us reallynicely into our topic of the
(05:27):
cultures of our spaces and whatwe're bringing in. One of the
things that you say in yourpodcast is that we get the
culture we intentionally planfor, or we get the culture that
emerges in the absence of thatintention. And I think people
forget to be intentional aboutit, because we think that when
(05:52):
we have certain consciousvalues, we come in. We
especially, you know,nonprofits, mission driven
organizations come in thinkingthat their passion around the
particular mission is what willset the tone, is what will
create the culture. And we don'taccount for the fact that we are
(06:12):
swimming in overall waters thatpush us all to fit in and not
actually to be you know, say,bring your full self to work.
We're not conditioned to be ourfull selves because we have
learned that it isn't safe to dothat at various levels and to
various levels of safetydepending on our social
(06:32):
occasion. In this society, it isnot safe, but ultimately,
especially if the moremarginalized you are in the
society, the less safe it is.
But we've all been conditionedto fit in with the dynamics of
the space that we're occupying,and not just to be ourselves,
(06:53):
because we don't, we don't evenunderstand what belonging is,
and so naturally, thatunintentional culture is going
to be developed. I would love toknow, what do you notice with
that? And maybe, actually,before we even do that, could
you share a little bit aboutwhat is a culture? Because I'm
(07:13):
using this word, and I realizewe haven't defined it,
Danielle Marshall (07:16):
Yeah, oh, I love that. I'm so glad that we
said that up front. So when Ithink about culture, and I'm
going to give a pretty basicdefinition for listeners. It is
the norms, the behaviors, thepatterns, right, the values that
we bring in as a particulargroup. And so you could apply
that to cultures, when it comesto maybe the region that you
(07:37):
grew up in your identities, butcertainly also workspace
cultures. And when I think ofanother way to define culture at
work, it is simply how we dothings around here and to the
point around we get that culturethat we inherit, or the one that
(07:59):
just sort of manifest. That isthe big driver. It's like we
this is how we do things, right?
And there, there have been somany instances where people will
just say, Well, you know, youknow, this is the way we've
always done it, right? That isspeaking to your culture. It's
speaking to how decisions getmade. It's speaking to risk
appetite, or how we handlechange, all of those things
(08:21):
become inherently a part ofone's organizational culture.
Valerie Friedlander (08:27):
Yeah, and it's so that is an interesting
thing to think about. Of like,this is how we do things. It
pulls forward for me, the wholepersonality, like when we think
about individuals, personalityand culture, almost so like,
culture is the group,personality is the individual is
(08:49):
that? Would you say that's a...
Danielle Marshall (08:51):
I would actually, I, yes, I would
separate those two out. Becausehere's the thing, you can belong
to a cultural group and stillnot adhere to the norms of said
culture, because you are yourown individual. And so I think
in a lot of cases, to yourpoint, personality does shine
through in those moments.
Because while it might be normalin my culture, and for listeners
(09:14):
right now that cannot see me, Iam talking with my hands, that
is very cultural. And there maybe someone else who has the same
cultural upbringing as I do, butvery different individual who's
like, you're Danielle. You'redistracting me because your
hands are moving so much whileyou're talking, right? They're
not going to adhere to thatnorm. Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (09:37):
So when I when I was mentioning the idea
of personality, one of thethings that comes forward, like
people do these personalityassessments, and when I'm
working with them, they've takena personality assessment. Oh,
well, this is just the way I am.
I am just whatever the MyersBriggs is, or Enneagram or
astrological sign or whatever.
This is just how I am. And they.
Think it's so fixed when it'ssomething that can be shifted.
(10:04):
And I'm sure you've seen this inorganizations that I've talked
to a lot of people who work fororganizations, who are running
into, well, my boss would neverwant to talk to somebody about
the culture of our workplace,because, you know, they're the
ones creating it, and they don'tthink there's any problem here,
(10:26):
or any or or don't not evennecessarily a problem, but like
something that could be changed.
Because this is just how we dothings, right? This is just how
I am, and this is just how we dothings.
Danielle Marshall (10:39):
Yeah, to those folks, I would say, if you
argue for your limitations, you100% get to keep them. Ooh. The
thing is, oftentimes, whenpeople call folks like myself
into organizations, and I'm sureeven you in your coaching work,
it is because they haveidentified some need for change,
(11:01):
right? Like there's some desiredoutcome they have yet to
achieve. But if we get stuck inthis pattern of, well, this is
the way we do things, we can'tchange. We don't have the
expertise, or whatever thelimitation is that will remain
true. The question for me is,how can we get there? What else
(11:23):
might be true in this instance,right? So that we can start to
lean on curiosity as anexploratory tool in that moment,
maybe you don't, in fact, havethe right folks on the team yet,
or there is some real barrier,but what I'm interested in is
figuring out how we dismantlethat barrier in order to get to
said desired goal, instead ofcentering the limitation up
(11:46):
front.
Valerie Friedlander (11:46):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is, if you're
just focused on this is just theway it is, and it's just this
locked in thing, you're notgoing to change. But if you
bring in some curiosity, youopen the door to possibility.
And I think I do wonder. A lotof times people shut down
(12:07):
possibilities becausepossibilities feel scary. It's
like the unknown, like, well,this is what I know, but I don't
know what that is like. I couldwalk through into that
possibility and everything couldfall apart.
Danielle Marshall (12:19):
It could but it also might be the best day of
your life. You might findyourself open to new
opportunities in general,because you simply open that
first door. There are so manytimes that I can think back in
the course of my life where justbecause I tried something
different, it led me on thisfantastical journey, if you
(12:39):
will, where I was rewarded,where I had new opportunities,
where I met some really amazingpeople, all because I said yes.
Valerie Friedlander (12:50):
Do you have a favorite story about doing
that?
Danielle Marshall (12:53):
Oh my gosh, I think it is. Actually I will
tell this story. So I have agroup of women in my circle. I
call them my squad, and they'reall other entrepreneurs. And for
a very, very long time, likeI've had friends, you know, all
of my life, but I was lookingfor a specific set of friends,
if you will, and that wasentrepreneurs, particularly in
(13:16):
this group. It's all women ofcolor as well, because I wanted
to be able to talk to folks whoI could relate to, who might be
going through similarchallenges. And one of the
things that I did, and peoplethought I was nuts when I first
did this, is I wrote out aposition description for who I
want it to have in my circle. Ilove that, right? Yeah, because
I couldn't find anyone. I'mlooking all around, and I'm
(13:37):
like, where these other folksseem to have, like, really
amazing communities. I was like,I'm not seeing this now. I know
that sounds really nerdy andlike maybe over the top, because
people are probably like aposition description, but I
don't want you to think aboutthis as like a two page
document. It was literally aparagraph. Who are you as a
person? Right? Like, I waslooking for people who were
(13:57):
entrepreneurs, that were women,that were goal oriented, who
also could take themselves, youknow, a little lightly, and that
everything wasn't going to beserious all the time. I wanted
folks that were open to bothgiving and receiving feedback,
because that was the nature ofthis community that I wanted to
develop. And I had been inseveral groups, networking
(14:19):
groups, and so I was sort ofwatching the landscape, and I'm
listening to how people arespeaking, how they're
interacting with one another.
And every once in a while Iwould identify someone, and I'm
like, Hmm, I really like howthis person thinks. Or in one
case, there was a woman who wasjust so brilliant, she made me
Shut up. I was like, oh,Danielle, you should be
listening right now, clearly,because you have so much to
(14:40):
learn from this otherindividual. So I share all of
that to say what I ended updoing with this position
description is I emailed it tothese individuals, and it was
seven of us at the time, and Isaid, Here is the type of
people, person that I'm lookingto bring into this group. Would
you be interested? And everylast. Last person that I emailed
said yes, and we were able toget together. And I would say,
(15:04):
at least, for a solid year, wewere meeting regularly, we were
talking, and yes, it was aboutbusiness, but it also became
about friendships. Like when Iknow about what's happening with
your kids and your spouse andyou know life, who's moving all
of these things, we'recelebrating each other together.
We are literally sitting there,holding space when people are in
tears. It was amazing now thatgroup over time, because it's
(15:26):
been a couple of years since Ifirst started it, it's more, you
know, we've added some people.
Some folks have dropped outbecause life changes, but
because I was willing to both becurious and challenge this
notion of I can't find friends,I can't find anyone like me. I
was able to step out and dosomething pretty amazing. And
(15:48):
the best comment I got from allof this is one of the the women
in the group said to me, she'slike, how did you know that we
needed each other? I was like,Oh, I'm so glad you find value
in that. But I really did thisfor me. I am so happy though,
that we collectively arebenefiting.
Valerie Friedlander (16:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that actually made a lotof sense to me to write out what
you're looking for, because itfocuses what you decide means
the idea of like a vision board,or like a mission statement, or
vision statement, or any ofthose things. It's like you're
you're clarifying for yourselfoutside of your own head. This
(16:29):
is what I want. So no, it's theidea where your focus goes. Your
attention flows. Yes, right? Solike I said, this is what I'm
looking for, and so you're tunedinto this is what I want. So
that kind of loops us around tothis idea of, okay, often when
I'm working with somebody, we'llstart with that visioning, what
(16:50):
do you want, right? So, likeyour example, writing out
clearly, this is what I want,this is what I'm looking for,
and pulling away from the thisis what I don't want, yes,
right? Because so often we'relike, Well, I don't want this,
and then we're focused on whatwe don't want instead of what we
do want. So this is what I want.
(17:11):
And I find even when you getsomething that looks different
than you imagined it to look ifit has the essence of what you
wanted, like, this is what Iwant and why I want it, right? I
want this, like you're saying,for value for for me, there's a
purpose behind what you wanted.
So, so where I'm trying to gowith that is people start
businesses to do that, like Ihave this mission, I have this
(17:36):
thing that I want to do, andthat rides for a certain amount
of time. I know that you'resupposed to like review your
vision statement every so often,because we change, we evolve,
and our organizations change andevolve so but we also have all
these internalized values thataren't that kind of rub up
(17:57):
against our conscious or like,the values that we've chosen to
have, and we have theseunconscious, like, like you
mentioned, the cultural like,this is just what we do. I'm
automatically doing it. I'm noteven thinking about it. So
getting clear on what we want,getting clear on what those are,
setting the mission statement.
(18:19):
But when you've been doing itfor a while, we get into habits
and we forget that we can stilldo that. And this episode's
coming out towards the end ofthe year, and I think it's a
wonderful time to invite peopleto revisit some of those things.
And I'm hearing, you know, getcurious, what would you suggest
(18:44):
that people do if they want toengage intentionally creating
the culture, thinking about thebehaviors, the patterns, the
values, the norms of theirenvironment? Yeah, probably
mostly for business owners. Buteven, I mean, I think all of
these things can be totallyapplicable to
Danielle Marshall (19:05):
To individuals as well. Absolutely.
Yeah, so I am appreciating thatyou started with this idea of,
you know, where do we want togo? Right? Like, what? What is
that vision that we have forourselves? Because I think that
can be actually both groundingand, quite frankly, a lot of fun
(19:25):
for people. So like, if we saidthere's no restrictions, it's
not monetary it's not humancapacity, any of those things.
What would you want to be true?
It gives people a reason todream, to be hopeful about the
future. And I think especiallyin the space that we're in now.
We need hope. We need to feellike we have some kind of agency
to design this world that weideally want to live in, whether
(19:48):
that happens to be in a worksetting, our family dynamics and
so forth. But beyond even askingthis question of sort of we,
what do we want to be true?
Yeah. I am also now askingpeople about the realities of
today, what is true today, andso that could be anything from
(20:09):
if I'm thinking aboutorganizations like, how well are
we doing towards our businessgoals? How do we treat one
another when we think aboutculture? Do Do we all have the
same idea of what culture is inthis organization, are some
people benefiting and othersbeing disadvantaged? Like
there's so many questions todive into, to really just be
(20:29):
able to surface what ishappening. And I think that
there are opportunities inorganizations to do this, both
at the individual level and alsoat the team level. And the
reason I say that is asindividuals, sometimes we just
need time to process what istrue. For me may not be true for
the the organization at large,right? My experiences in here
(20:51):
could look slightly different.
My hopes and dreams for thecompany could look slightly
different. And so I want to beable to give people time to
reflect in that way. But now Ialso want to bring it back to
the full group, so that we havean opportunity to bounce ideas
off of one another. Andtypically, what I see in those
spaces is, you know, someonewill start talking, and another
person's like, Oh, I've noticedthat too. But here's this other
(21:14):
way, this little nuance detailthat I want to add to this, or I
wonder about this, right? And sonow we have a much more robust
conversation that's going on,because it is the individual to
sort of the larger ecosystem ofthat organizational culture that
we're getting to sort of reallyexamine. And if you want it to
take it another layer, it'slike, well, what do our partners
(21:36):
in the community, think ourvendors, that maybe the clients
we serve. There's lots of waysthat we can sort of internalize
the where are we moment.
Valerie Friedlander (21:48):
Do you have practices like so say somebody
wants to do this individually,like, I love the you know, think
about this as individuals, cometogether as an organization and
engage these questions and say,we take that and we bring it
into our friend group or evenour family gatherings. What
(22:08):
would it look like? First, whatwould it look like to engage
that in those spaces? And whatobstacles do you see with that?
Danielle Marshall (22:18):
So I want to make sure I'm understanding your
question here. So when you say,engage in those spaces, what is
your end goal?
Valerie Friedlander (22:25):
Good question. One thing that kind of
brings us forward is that ideaof stepping into the discomfort
you talk about leadershipincludes listening differently,
especially when it'suncomfortable and there's a lot
of nuance here. I think, youknow, I talk a lot about
(22:45):
boundaries, so I don'tnecessarily want to get into
unsafety, right? Like if youhave people in your life, family
in your life, that are unsafe,this isn't necessarily to engage
those. But if you have, maybeit's traditions, maybe it's
patterns of when we gettogether, we're heading into a
new year. What? How will I showup in my friend group, like
(23:08):
we're just but I'll give myselfas an example. I am terrible at
getting together with myfriends. I love them dearly.
When we get together, we couldspend hours together and chat,
but scheduling it, gettingtogether. So if I were to be
like, I want to be moreintentional about showing up
with my friends, or when I wantto prioritize like, whatever it
(23:32):
is, what you know, they're justthe idea of wanting to change
patterns in the new year withthe habits and ways we typically
do things with people in ourlife.
Danielle Marshall (23:43):
Okay, so let me answer this with something
that's probably going to bequite controversial, right? The
first time that I heard this, Iwas like, That is awful. Who
would do this? And now, now I ama regular practitioner of this,
and to the question that youasked, I now hold an annual
friend audit. Okay? At the endof this audit, not everybody
(24:06):
makes the cut, okay? And soinitially, when I heard about
this, I was again, like, whodoes this? Like, that seems so
cutthroat. But when it wasframed to me, certain questions
started to emerge about, like,who's in your circle of friends,
right? Are these people whoenergize you, or are they
(24:27):
depleting you? Are they peoplethat are givers, or are they
takers? Right? So, like, reallybeginning to think about all the
energy that you put into arelationship dynamic. We're all
so like at capacity when itcomes to time. The world has
never moved as fast as it'smoving now. And so if to the
(24:48):
point that you just made youwant to spend more time with
people, I'm gonna go out on alimb and say you probably don't
want to spend time witheveryone.
Valerie Friedlander (24:57):
Yeah. I mean, that's that's true. Or, or
I don't want to in the same way,right? Like, I don't necessarily
want to spend the same way orkind of time, like, it's
different shapes with differentpeople based on what my capacity
is and what their capacity is.
Danielle Marshall (25:15):
Absolutely true. And there are probably
people you have encountered, asI'm sure most listeners have,
that you're like, you know, if Inever connect with that person
again, I will be okay, right?
Like, it's, it is just thenature of this. And so when I do
the friendship audit, I'm askingmyself questions. And it is not
to just eliminate people off thetop, but it's really asking
(25:36):
myself, like, is this personmoving in a direction that I
value, that I can see myselfbeing part of, or are we growing
apart? And I think that level ofhonesty with ourselves means we
can have richer relationshipswith the people we choose to
keep in our world.
Valerie Friedlander (25:55):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to take
that intentional time. I thinkthat's a that's a big piece of
what I'm hearing invited in allof this is to take that
intentional time to really lookat what is what is true. Like
you said, what is true for meright now, I'll often say, like,
what's working, what's notworking, but I really like that
(26:18):
question of what is true. Iactually, you know, as we're
saying, that I had someonerespond to a newsletter not too
long ago. Then I sent out, andshe mentioned how she was
feeling really overwhelmed bythe question of, how are you and
like, that was just thatquestion. Was like, No, again,
(26:39):
it's, it doesn't work. Thatquestion doesn't work. And she,
and I can't remember if it wasshe and her colleagues or
friends, or maybe both, like theone, the colleagues that are
friends, maybe had startedasking each other what's real,
instead of, how are you and thatanyway, that that question that
you were asking of like, what istrue today. What I liked about
(27:03):
that idea of like, what's realhas to do with taking a minute
to actually check in, not in theoverwhelming like, how are you
but what's what's real rightnow?
Danielle Marshall (27:14):
Yeah, I have such a deep appreciation, and
it's funny that you picked up onthat particular thing, because
when we got on our call today, Iasked you how, yeah, and when I
asked that, it is because Iactually care, in this instance,
to know the answer. We don'talways do that. Sometimes it's
simply just a formality. It is agreeting that we give people.
(27:36):
But I have also made a pivot inhow I ask questions when I check
in with people, depending onwhat the dynamics are, I've kind
of moved to and now this is myif I'm networking, I always ask
this question, what's been thebest five minutes of your day
today? And it's been so fun tohear what comes up for people,
because I think one, it'sunexpected, but two, it allows a
(28:00):
level of like, maybe freedom forpeople to just say whatever it
is. Like, one day, I was at a itwas actually at a fundraiser,
and someone told me theirdaughter just got accepted into
her dream college, and someoneelse told me they had won a
major award in their sector. Andso I'm like, I would have never
known these things. And so itgave me an opportunity to one
(28:20):
celebrate with them. But I justthink at a time where there's so
much just heaviness in theworld, being able to also really
figure out what lights peopleup, what is real for them,
whether you want to take it likereal meaning, like, Hey, give me
everything you're not going todo that with every person, or if
you want to focus on somethingthat is like, uplifting and that
(28:42):
you get to celebrate like, Ithink there's so many ways we
can ask questions and reallybuild better connections than
just using your standard, Hey,how are you what's going on?
Valerie Friedlander (28:51):
Yeah, well, and that's one of the things
that is encouraged with kids,is, instead of saying, How is
your day? Like asking betterquestions. Better questions get
more interesting answers,though, all right, I try not to,
like, give the judgey languageof like, better questions, but
like more curious questions,more specific questions.
Danielle Marshall (29:08):
Yeah. And even with that, you have to get
creative. Because I asked mydaughter the other day, what did
you learn at school today,right? Because I didn't want to
say, how was your day? What didyou learn? And she's like,
nothing, yeah. So that now I'mlike, on my toes, and I have to
find a different way and but Imentioned that because sometimes
when you offer up a question outof curiosity, you don't know how
(29:30):
the other person is going toreceive it, how they're going to
take it, but I don't feel offput by it. I just ask a
different question.
Valerie Friedlander (29:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So the perfectionist in me hearswhat was the best five minutes
of your day? And I'm like, Idon't know.. The best? The best?
Well, I mean, drinking my firstsip of coffee was good, but was
it the best, or was itsomething, you know.
Danielle Marshall (29:56):
That's funny.
Valerie Friedlander (29:59):
Yeah, again, like you said, depends on
who you're talking to. I mean,it might be an obvious best,
like, something awesome mighthave happened, but it could be
like, a pretty basic day. Like Iasked my my son, what was your
favorite part of your day today?
It's inevitably, recess. It'salways recess. Like it's that's
gonna be the answer every day.
(30:20):
It speaks to how kids really doneed to play and run around, but
that's a whole notherconversation. And so that's the
first thing that comes up. Butthe other thing that that I does
make me think of is thedifference of like, what
questions we ask, and you talk alot about curiosity, and asking
a more open, curious questionwill always invite somebody to
(30:42):
think a little bit more thanthey would with a closed yes or
no question. One of the thingsas a coach, you know, we learn
certain ways to ask questionsand how to ask curious
questions, like Why questionstend to feel judgy, how
questions create overwhelm, whatquestions tend to be more open,
but I am. I would love to know alittle bit about what questions
(31:08):
or what ways that you helppeople engage more curiosity,
like when they haven't gonethrough a training to be a
coach, but like to to show uplike you mentioned, getting
people together to talk abouthow things are going in a
workplace as an example, andhaving that conversation, I
could see that going a varietyof ways. If someone didn't have
(31:30):
the skills like hadn't hiredsomeone like you to help them
facilitate that kind ofconversation, people tend to
fall back into their patterns,and if an organization has
unintentionally developed aculture where people aren't
necessarily feeling open. Whathelps them show up to that
(31:52):
curiosity or bring in morecuriosity?
Danielle Marshall (31:56):
Yeah, I I always start with goals no
matter what, and so when I saythat to people, like, it could
be an organizational goal, whichis a very detailed goal, or it
could be something morepersonal, you know, if you were
talking about family or friends,like, I want to spend more time
with people. I want to invitethat into the conversation,
(32:16):
because now it gives mesomething to be more curious
about. So if you say to me, youknow, I want to spend more time
with my family and friends.
Okay, great. What's important toyou about them, right? And so as
we start to dive into that, thatnaturally now segues off into
different things, like maybewhen I was growing up, we didn't
(32:37):
have a lot of time to spendtogether. I'm really wanting to
cultivate that in my familytoday. Wow. So what activities
have you done to bring that tolife? Already, right? It's a
very natural segue.
Valerie Friedlander (32:50):
Okay, so I'm seeing the theme here, and
that is knowing what you want,the goals, what's it and why?
What's important to you aboutthat goal, and then even just
asking questions everywhere,right? Like, not just, okay, I
have the answer and now we'restopping. But like, what
(33:13):
question could I ask about that?
Danielle Marshall (33:17):
What else might be true?
Valerie Friedlander (33:18):
Yeah, what else might be true? I love that
question too.
Danielle Marshall (33:21):
So that is probably my top question that I
like to ask people and myself.
So like, that's the other thingI want to be really clear about
coaches. Coach ourselves,because we can get stuck in our
own heads at time. But if I askthis question of what else might
be true, it opens up so manydoors. So even if I would, it
was a pretty benign issue we'retalking about. And I say, you
(33:43):
know, I'm just, you know, I makea clear definitive like, this is
my favorite candy. Like, well,what else might be true about
this? Or, do you like otherthings? Do you know? Are there
other brands you like? I could,I could spend some time in that
space. But I also find the Whatelse might be true question to
be really helpful when peoplehave limiting beliefs. So where
we are in the world, people havea lot of judgments about other
(34:07):
people right now.
Valerie Friedlander (34:10):
I had no idea. I'm sorry,
Danielle Marshall (34:12):
Amazing, huh?
But this idea of what else mightbe true becomes really important
to me when someone sayssomething along the lines of,
you know, how they are, yeah,they always do this thing. And
I'm like, do they What elsemight be true, right? Is this a
case of always, or is it a, youknow, is it a pattern and
(34:33):
sometimes it is, or is thissomething that you had one
experience around, and you'venow drawn some pretty definitive
conclusions for yourself. Whatelse might be true? Yeah, and
even if I were to apply that inan organizational setting,
something as simple as thisindividual came to work today
(34:55):
and they were late, there'salways going. Be someone at the
company who says, Oh, they justdon't even care. They're not
responsible. They don't respectmy time, right? Fill in the
blank here, and then I have toask what else might be true,
because we don't know. Theycould have had a sick pet at
home that they found themselvescleaning up after this morning.
(35:16):
They could have gotten a flattire on the highway. They could
have just maybe oversleptbecause they were up all night,
right? They were working on abig project. I don't know, until
I ask you, yeah. And so avoidingthe tendency, I think, to simply
make assumptions by leaning intocuriosity and as I say that
(35:40):
again, I will admit, humbly, Iam still practicing. Because
there are days where theassumption is such a driving
force, it is hard to put itdown. And then I have to say,
Danielle, what else could betrue?
Valerie Friedlander (35:56):
Yeah, well, and I think that's true for all
of us. The more rushed we are,the more likely we're going to
automatically fill in the blank,because it's easier and faster,
we are able to do thingsquicker, when we can just fill
the blank in and then actaccordingly, instead of taking
the time to pause and check inand ask the questions. And so
(36:20):
there's a lot of push to not dothat. And so you mentioned how
important hope, like we needhope right now. And one of the
things that someone saidrecently, and I talked about in
the earlier podcast, is abouthow hope is a practice. And what
is really striking me right nowin this conversation, is how
(36:43):
even just slowing down to askquestions opens up more access
to possibilities which isintrinsically tied to hope.
Danielle Marshall (36:56):
Yes, 100% right. It is very difficult to
have hope when you don't see apossible pathway forward and
sometimes in life. And I wouldsay this is one of those
moments, it's hard to see whatthat pathway is, but if you ask
(37:16):
enough questions to enoughpeople, you're going to get
other ideas. How could we tacklethis? What else might be true,
right? Even understanding what'simportant to another person will
now train your eyes and yourlens on something you probably
weren't attending to before,because it wasn't your priority,
but it is certainly theirs. Andso from that, not to say that
(37:39):
we're going to addresseverything that we learn through
this path of curiosity, butgenerally, you're able to pick
up enough threads that you'relike, I see something emerging
that wasn't there for meyesterday.
Valerie Friedlander (37:49):
Yeah. So knowing that we are heading into
closing out what has been aextraordinarily difficult year,
I think I would love to invitelisteners to engage something
engage some of these questionsas you close out the year, to
(38:12):
give yourself a little bit ofspace to close out this year.
And I'm wondering, Danielle,would you give folks two things?
One, let everybody know wherethey can find you, and then two,
I know you have something onyour website about helping
(38:32):
people show up your curiosityplaybook. Would you share what
you would hope people would stepinto as they close their year
out.
Danielle Marshall (38:45):
Yeah, so the first thing that I'm going to
say, and this is slightlydisconnected from what you said,
but also what I would hope forthem...
Valerie Friedlander (38:52):
Yeah.
Danielle Marshall (38:53):
Is to really take stock of who you want to be
in this world, right? If, again,there are no limits. There are
no restrictions. How do I wantto show up? What is the legacy I
seek to leave behind? If you canhave that quiet moment of
reflection with yourself, thisis part of your personal brand,
(39:15):
we can now begin to askourselves questions around, how
often am I actually steppinginto this vision I have for
myself. How do my behaviorsalign with this vision I have?
And if we're to be reallyhonest, what behaviors hinder me
from stepping into this vision?
We are so quick right now to putblame on other people and to
(39:40):
point fingers. This is a momentto look in the mirror and say,
am I actually being the type ofhuman that I most desire to be?
So that is that answer.
Valerie Friedlander (39:54):
Yes. Thank you.
Danielle Marshall (39:55):
Folks can find me... You can find me on
LinkedIn, at Danielle Marshall.
You can go to my website, whichis www.culture-principles.com,
and I'm sure that'll be in theshow. It sure will, yeah. So
those are the best ways to findme, or culture principles on
Instagram as well. And you havea podcast. I do have a podcast,
(40:18):
so I would love for you to comein and follow us over there or
listen to an episode or two. Somy podcast is called Unpacked
Culture Chronicles. And what weare exploring in this podcast
are cultural similarities anddifferences and how we begin to
bridge across them.
Valerie Friedlander (40:37):
I love it, yes. So we've lightly touched on
a number of things, and so thatis a great place to go even
deeper on all of these thingswith Danielle. So I invite
everybody to check those linksout in the show notes as well as
I will have a link to yourcuriosity playbook so people can
access that as well.
Danielle Marshall (40:57):
Yeah, can I put one last plug in for that
playbook? Absolutely So forfolks who are interested in
having difficult conversations,hard conversations, and are
seeking ways to one answer someof these questions, like, what
are the questions I should beasking? Number one, I developed
a playbook for you that is goingto help you ground yourself
(41:19):
before the conversation. Thinkabout some of the languaging you
can use in the middle of theconversation. But also, and I
think very importantly, is howdo we close the conversation
with care so that we remain inright relationship with one
another?
Valerie Friedlander (41:34):
I love it.
That's fabulous. So yes, therewill be a link for that in the
show notes, and then. Thank youso much. I love to wrap up with
two questions, first being, whatdoes it mean to you to be
unlimited?
Danielle Marshall (41:50):
It is freedom. Unlimited is freedom.
It is freedom of choice, of howto show up in the world. It is
freedom to change your mind.
Folks, you do not have to getlocked into one belief system.
You are welcome to change yourmind. These are things that
represent, I think,unlimitedness. To me.
Valerie Friedlander (42:06):
Yeah, awesome. And what song do you
listen to when you want to evokethat unlimited feeling?
Danielle Marshall (42:15):
Yeah, there is a song Not Your Average Girl,
by India Arie.
Valerie Friedlander (42:21):
Oh, yeah.
Danielle Marshall (42:21):
I really, really like that, because she
leans so much into I am. I amsimply who I am, and I'm
beautiful and I am wise and I amall the things, right? I am
enough,
Valerie Friedlander (42:31):
Yes, yeah.
I love it. Awesome. Thank youagain, Danielle, for joining me.
I just love this conversation.
Danielle Marshall (42:39):
Yeah, Valerie, thanks so much. I love
you as a host, this was awonderful conversation. Thank
you.
Valerie Friedlander (42:44):
Thank you so much for listening. I really
appreciate you being here, and Ihope that you enjoyed this
conversation as much as I did.
Just a reminder to check out theshow notes for links to all the
things, and if you are lookingfor support to enter the new
year with more intentionality,to reflect on where you've been,
to choose how you want to moveforward, building goals,
(43:05):
building a strategic plan,developing a vision aligning
with your values. All of thosethings are things that I help my
clients with, and if you wouldlike to explore what coaching
together would look like in thenew year, please grab a spot on
my calendar. There's a link tosign up for an exploration call,
and I'd love to talk with you.
(43:26):
There's one more episode left inthis season of mindset
Unlimited, so keep your eye outfor that, and I will talk to you
all next time.
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
episode (00:02):
Mindset tips, tools and inspiration for women in a time
of change. I'm your host.
Valerie Friedlander, ICFcertified coach, sociologist,
intersectional feminist artist,mom and nerd. Today we are
talking about leading withcuriosity, building intentional
relationships in your businessand personal life. I talk a lot
(00:24):
about curiosity, but I realizethat I have no episodes where
that is the focus. It's likeintegrated in everything,
because it's such a criticalcomponent of everything, but I
haven't actually really focusedin on it, and as we head to the
(00:45):
end of another calendar year, itis a popular time to talk about
reflecting on where we've beenover the course of the year,
where we are now, and where wewould like to go in the new
year. And curiosity is key forthat reflection, it's key to
support us in thinkingexpansively, in getting really
(01:06):
intentional, but doing it in away that is not about beating
ourselves up, but supportive ofwhat we want to create. And so
this episode is a lot aboutusing curiosity to engage this
topic of curiosity and how itbuilds relationships and
cultures and all of the things.
I invited my colleague, DanielleMarshall, who is an equity
(01:30):
strategist, executive coach andhost of unpacked culture
Chronicles, a podcast exploringhow curiosity can bridge
cultural divides and bringpeople closer across
differences. With more than 25years in the nonprofit sector
Spanning Leadership, programdevelopment and organizational
strategy, Danielle has dedicatedher career to challenging
(01:53):
assumptions, shifting narrativesand fostering meaningful change
as a sought after coach andfacilitator, she partners with
leaders to cultivate inclusiveworkspaces, deepen cross
cultural understanding anddesign strategies that drive
both equity and impact. Her workis grounded in the belief that
transformation begins withconversation, but it's what
(02:16):
happens next that truly matters.
When we replace judgment withcuriosity, we don't just open
the door to dialog. We lay thefoundation for deeper
understanding, strongerrelationships and meaningful
action. Some of what Danielleand I talk about in this episode
(02:37):
include what you need to build astrong organizational culture,
simple curiosity, supportingquestions that strengthen
relationships in personal andprofessional life, recognizing
and reframing, limiting beliefsthat keep you from your
potential, practical ways toslow down, reduce assumptions
and create more intentionalconnections. There is so much in
(03:03):
this episode. We had such a goodtime chatting about all the
things. I know you're going tolove it. So now without further
ado, let's get started.
Welcome, Danielle. I'm soexcited to have you on mindset
unlimited.
Danielle Marshall (03:24):
Thank you, Valerie. I've been looking
forward to this. I can't wait todive into the conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (03:28):
Yes, we had such a fabulous conversation
several months ago, and I waslike, I gotta have her on. We
gotta talk about all the things.
So before we get started, whydon't you introduce yourself
just a little bit to theaudience? Sure.
Danielle Marshall (03:47):
So Danielle Marshall, I am an equity
strategist and executive coach,and primarily I find myself
working with a lot ofnonprofits. That is my
background, originally andorganizational leaders. So
directors C suite, basicallypeople who are really looking to
build healthy cultures in theirorganization, but also want to
(04:09):
focus on all of the identitiesthat we individually bring in as
part of their inclusionstrategies.
Valerie Friedlander (04:16):
Love it.
Okay. So first question is, whatis a limit that you took for
granted, that you have sinceunlearned?
Danielle Marshall (04:26):
I think this is such a powerful question. I
think the the initial thing, andquite frankly, one that I still
have to remind myself abouttoday, is that I am enough. I
think so many of us take thatfor granted that we are lacking
in some way, shape or form. Youknow, I am not smart enough, I'm
(04:47):
not tall enough, pretty enough,funny enough, dot, dot, dot.
That sometimes we just have tobe okay being who we are in that
moment and realizing we arefully functional people. And
that is, in fact. Not enough. Itis. We're worthy already.
Valerie Friedlander (05:04):
Yeah, yeah.
That is so important, and somany of us need to constantly
remind ourselves or be remindedof that, because that's such the
programming in a society wherethe culture of the overall
society is on fitting in versusbelonging. Absolutely so. I
think that moves us reallynicely into our topic of the
(05:27):
cultures of our spaces and whatwe're bringing in. One of the
things that you say in yourpodcast is that we get the
culture we intentionally planfor, or we get the culture that
emerges in the absence of thatintention. And I think people
forget to be intentional aboutit, because we think that when
(05:52):
we have certain consciousvalues, we come in. We
especially, you know,nonprofits, mission driven
organizations come in thinkingthat their passion around the
particular mission is what willset the tone, is what will
create the culture. And we don'taccount for the fact that we are
(06:12):
swimming in overall waters thatpush us all to fit in and not
actually to be you know, say,bring your full self to work.
We're not conditioned to be ourfull selves because we have
learned that it isn't safe to dothat at various levels and to
various levels of safetydepending on our social
(06:32):
occasion. In this society, it isnot safe, but ultimately,
especially if the moremarginalized you are in the
society, the less safe it is.
But we've all been conditionedto fit in with the dynamics of
the space that we're occupying,and not just to be ourselves,
(06:53):
because we don't, we don't evenunderstand what belonging is,
and so naturally, thatunintentional culture is going
to be developed. I would love toknow, what do you notice with
that? And maybe, actually,before we even do that, could
you share a little bit aboutwhat is a culture? Because I'm
(07:13):
using this word, and I realizewe haven't defined it,
Danielle Marshall (07:16):
Yeah, oh, I love that. I'm so glad that we
said that up front. So when Ithink about culture, and I'm
going to give a pretty basicdefinition for listeners. It is
the norms, the behaviors, thepatterns, right, the values that
we bring in as a particulargroup. And so you could apply
that to cultures, when it comesto maybe the region that you
(07:37):
grew up in your identities, butcertainly also workspace
cultures. And when I think ofanother way to define culture at
work, it is simply how we dothings around here and to the
point around we get that culturethat we inherit, or the one that
(07:59):
just sort of manifest. That isthe big driver. It's like we
this is how we do things, right?
And there, there have been somany instances where people will
just say, Well, you know, youknow, this is the way we've
always done it, right? That isspeaking to your culture. It's
speaking to how decisions getmade. It's speaking to risk
appetite, or how we handlechange, all of those things
(08:21):
become inherently a part ofone's organizational culture.
Valerie Friedlander (08:27):
Yeah, and it's so that is an interesting
thing to think about. Of like,this is how we do things. It
pulls forward for me, the wholepersonality, like when we think
about individuals, personalityand culture, almost so like,
culture is the group,personality is the individual is
(08:49):
that? Would you say that's a...
Danielle Marshall (08:51):
I would actually, I, yes, I would
separate those two out. Becausehere's the thing, you can belong
to a cultural group and stillnot adhere to the norms of said
culture, because you are yourown individual. And so I think
in a lot of cases, to yourpoint, personality does shine
through in those moments.
Because while it might be normalin my culture, and for listeners
(09:14):
right now that cannot see me, Iam talking with my hands, that
is very cultural. And there maybe someone else who has the same
cultural upbringing as I do, butvery different individual who's
like, you're Danielle. You'redistracting me because your
hands are moving so much whileyou're talking, right? They're
not going to adhere to thatnorm. Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (09:37):
So when I when I was mentioning the idea
of personality, one of thethings that comes forward, like
people do these personalityassessments, and when I'm
working with them, they've takena personality assessment. Oh,
well, this is just the way I am.
I am just whatever the MyersBriggs is, or Enneagram or
astrological sign or whatever.
This is just how I am. And they.
Think it's so fixed when it'ssomething that can be shifted.
(10:04):
And I'm sure you've seen this inorganizations that I've talked
to a lot of people who work fororganizations, who are running
into, well, my boss would neverwant to talk to somebody about
the culture of our workplace,because, you know, they're the
ones creating it, and they don'tthink there's any problem here,
(10:26):
or any or or don't not evennecessarily a problem, but like
something that could be changed.
Because this is just how we dothings, right? This is just how
I am, and this is just how we dothings.
Danielle Marshall (10:39):
Yeah, to those folks, I would say, if you
argue for your limitations, you100% get to keep them. Ooh. The
thing is, oftentimes, whenpeople call folks like myself
into organizations, and I'm sureeven you in your coaching work,
it is because they haveidentified some need for change,
(11:01):
right? Like there's some desiredoutcome they have yet to
achieve. But if we get stuck inthis pattern of, well, this is
the way we do things, we can'tchange. We don't have the
expertise, or whatever thelimitation is that will remain
true. The question for me is,how can we get there? What else
(11:23):
might be true in this instance,right? So that we can start to
lean on curiosity as anexploratory tool in that moment,
maybe you don't, in fact, havethe right folks on the team yet,
or there is some real barrier,but what I'm interested in is
figuring out how we dismantlethat barrier in order to get to
said desired goal, instead ofcentering the limitation up
(11:46):
front.
Valerie Friedlander (11:46):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is, if you're
just focused on this is just theway it is, and it's just this
locked in thing, you're notgoing to change. But if you
bring in some curiosity, youopen the door to possibility.
And I think I do wonder. A lotof times people shut down
(12:07):
possibilities becausepossibilities feel scary. It's
like the unknown, like, well,this is what I know, but I don't
know what that is like. I couldwalk through into that
possibility and everything couldfall apart.
Danielle Marshall (12:19):
It could but it also might be the best day of
your life. You might findyourself open to new
opportunities in general,because you simply open that
first door. There are so manytimes that I can think back in
the course of my life where justbecause I tried something
different, it led me on thisfantastical journey, if you
(12:39):
will, where I was rewarded,where I had new opportunities,
where I met some really amazingpeople, all because I said yes.
Valerie Friedlander (12:50):
Do you have a favorite story about doing
that?
Danielle Marshall (12:53):
Oh my gosh, I think it is. Actually I will
tell this story. So I have agroup of women in my circle. I
call them my squad, and they'reall other entrepreneurs. And for
a very, very long time, likeI've had friends, you know, all
of my life, but I was lookingfor a specific set of friends,
if you will, and that wasentrepreneurs, particularly in
(13:16):
this group. It's all women ofcolor as well, because I wanted
to be able to talk to folks whoI could relate to, who might be
going through similarchallenges. And one of the
things that I did, and peoplethought I was nuts when I first
did this, is I wrote out aposition description for who I
want it to have in my circle. Ilove that, right? Yeah, because
I couldn't find anyone. I'mlooking all around, and I'm
(13:37):
like, where these other folksseem to have, like, really
amazing communities. I was like,I'm not seeing this now. I know
that sounds really nerdy andlike maybe over the top, because
people are probably like aposition description, but I
don't want you to think aboutthis as like a two page
document. It was literally aparagraph. Who are you as a
person? Right? Like, I waslooking for people who were
(13:57):
entrepreneurs, that were women,that were goal oriented, who
also could take themselves, youknow, a little lightly, and that
everything wasn't going to beserious all the time. I wanted
folks that were open to bothgiving and receiving feedback,
because that was the nature ofthis community that I wanted to
develop. And I had been inseveral groups, networking
(14:19):
groups, and so I was sort ofwatching the landscape, and I'm
listening to how people arespeaking, how they're
interacting with one another.
And every once in a while Iwould identify someone, and I'm
like, Hmm, I really like howthis person thinks. Or in one
case, there was a woman who wasjust so brilliant, she made me
Shut up. I was like, oh,Danielle, you should be
listening right now, clearly,because you have so much to
(14:40):
learn from this otherindividual. So I share all of
that to say what I ended updoing with this position
description is I emailed it tothese individuals, and it was
seven of us at the time, and Isaid, Here is the type of
people, person that I'm lookingto bring into this group. Would
you be interested? And everylast. Last person that I emailed
said yes, and we were able toget together. And I would say,
(15:04):
at least, for a solid year, wewere meeting regularly, we were
talking, and yes, it was aboutbusiness, but it also became
about friendships. Like when Iknow about what's happening with
your kids and your spouse andyou know life, who's moving all
of these things, we'recelebrating each other together.
We are literally sitting there,holding space when people are in
tears. It was amazing now thatgroup over time, because it's
(15:26):
been a couple of years since Ifirst started it, it's more, you
know, we've added some people.
Some folks have dropped outbecause life changes, but
because I was willing to both becurious and challenge this
notion of I can't find friends,I can't find anyone like me. I
was able to step out and dosomething pretty amazing. And
(15:48):
the best comment I got from allof this is one of the the women
in the group said to me, she'slike, how did you know that we
needed each other? I was like,Oh, I'm so glad you find value
in that. But I really did thisfor me. I am so happy though,
that we collectively arebenefiting.
Valerie Friedlander (16:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that actually made a lotof sense to me to write out what
you're looking for, because itfocuses what you decide means
the idea of like a vision board,or like a mission statement, or
vision statement, or any ofthose things. It's like you're
you're clarifying for yourselfoutside of your own head. This
(16:29):
is what I want. So no, it's theidea where your focus goes. Your
attention flows. Yes, right? Solike I said, this is what I'm
looking for, and so you're tunedinto this is what I want. So
that kind of loops us around tothis idea of, okay, often when
I'm working with somebody, we'llstart with that visioning, what
(16:50):
do you want, right? So, likeyour example, writing out
clearly, this is what I want,this is what I'm looking for,
and pulling away from the thisis what I don't want, yes,
right? Because so often we'relike, Well, I don't want this,
and then we're focused on whatwe don't want instead of what we
do want. So this is what I want.
(17:11):
And I find even when you getsomething that looks different
than you imagined it to look ifit has the essence of what you
wanted, like, this is what Iwant and why I want it, right? I
want this, like you're saying,for value for for me, there's a
purpose behind what you wanted.
So, so where I'm trying to gowith that is people start
businesses to do that, like Ihave this mission, I have this
(17:36):
thing that I want to do, andthat rides for a certain amount
of time. I know that you'resupposed to like review your
vision statement every so often,because we change, we evolve,
and our organizations change andevolve so but we also have all
these internalized values thataren't that kind of rub up
(17:57):
against our conscious or like,the values that we've chosen to
have, and we have theseunconscious, like, like you
mentioned, the cultural like,this is just what we do. I'm
automatically doing it. I'm noteven thinking about it. So
getting clear on what we want,getting clear on what those are,
setting the mission statement.
(18:19):
But when you've been doing itfor a while, we get into habits
and we forget that we can stilldo that. And this episode's
coming out towards the end ofthe year, and I think it's a
wonderful time to invite peopleto revisit some of those things.
And I'm hearing, you know, getcurious, what would you suggest
(18:44):
that people do if they want toengage intentionally creating
the culture, thinking about thebehaviors, the patterns, the
values, the norms of theirenvironment? Yeah, probably
mostly for business owners. Buteven, I mean, I think all of
these things can be totallyapplicable to
Danielle Marshall (19:05):
To individuals as well. Absolutely.
Yeah, so I am appreciating thatyou started with this idea of,
you know, where do we want togo? Right? Like, what? What is
that vision that we have forourselves? Because I think that
can be actually both groundingand, quite frankly, a lot of fun
(19:25):
for people. So like, if we saidthere's no restrictions, it's
not monetary it's not humancapacity, any of those things.
What would you want to be true?
It gives people a reason todream, to be hopeful about the
future. And I think especiallyin the space that we're in now.
We need hope. We need to feellike we have some kind of agency
to design this world that weideally want to live in, whether
(19:48):
that happens to be in a worksetting, our family dynamics and
so forth. But beyond even askingthis question of sort of we,
what do we want to be true?
Yeah. I am also now askingpeople about the realities of
today, what is true today, andso that could be anything from
(20:09):
if I'm thinking aboutorganizations like, how well are
we doing towards our businessgoals? How do we treat one
another when we think aboutculture? Do Do we all have the
same idea of what culture is inthis organization, are some
people benefiting and othersbeing disadvantaged? Like
there's so many questions todive into, to really just be
(20:29):
able to surface what ishappening. And I think that
there are opportunities inorganizations to do this, both
at the individual level and alsoat the team level. And the
reason I say that is asindividuals, sometimes we just
need time to process what istrue. For me may not be true for
the the organization at large,right? My experiences in here
(20:51):
could look slightly different.
My hopes and dreams for thecompany could look slightly
different. And so I want to beable to give people time to
reflect in that way. But now Ialso want to bring it back to
the full group, so that we havean opportunity to bounce ideas
off of one another. Andtypically, what I see in those
spaces is, you know, someonewill start talking, and another
person's like, Oh, I've noticedthat too. But here's this other
(21:14):
way, this little nuance detailthat I want to add to this, or I
wonder about this, right? And sonow we have a much more robust
conversation that's going on,because it is the individual to
sort of the larger ecosystem ofthat organizational culture that
we're getting to sort of reallyexamine. And if you want it to
take it another layer, it'slike, well, what do our partners
(21:36):
in the community, think ourvendors, that maybe the clients
we serve. There's lots of waysthat we can sort of internalize
the where are we moment.
Valerie Friedlander (21:48):
Do you have practices like so say somebody
wants to do this individually,like, I love the you know, think
about this as individuals, cometogether as an organization and
engage these questions and say,we take that and we bring it
into our friend group or evenour family gatherings. What
(22:08):
would it look like? First, whatwould it look like to engage
that in those spaces? And whatobstacles do you see with that?
Danielle Marshall (22:18):
So I want to make sure I'm understanding your
question here. So when you say,engage in those spaces, what is
your end goal?
Valerie Friedlander (22:25):
Good question. One thing that kind of
brings us forward is that ideaof stepping into the discomfort
you talk about leadershipincludes listening differently,
especially when it'suncomfortable and there's a lot
of nuance here. I think, youknow, I talk a lot about
(22:45):
boundaries, so I don'tnecessarily want to get into
unsafety, right? Like if youhave people in your life, family
in your life, that are unsafe,this isn't necessarily to engage
those. But if you have, maybeit's traditions, maybe it's
patterns of when we gettogether, we're heading into a
new year. What? How will I showup in my friend group, like
(23:08):
we're just but I'll give myselfas an example. I am terrible at
getting together with myfriends. I love them dearly.
When we get together, we couldspend hours together and chat,
but scheduling it, gettingtogether. So if I were to be
like, I want to be moreintentional about showing up
with my friends, or when I wantto prioritize like, whatever it
(23:32):
is, what you know, they're justthe idea of wanting to change
patterns in the new year withthe habits and ways we typically
do things with people in ourlife.
Danielle Marshall (23:43):
Okay, so let me answer this with something
that's probably going to bequite controversial, right? The
first time that I heard this, Iwas like, That is awful. Who
would do this? And now, now I ama regular practitioner of this,
and to the question that youasked, I now hold an annual
friend audit. Okay? At the endof this audit, not everybody
(24:06):
makes the cut, okay? And soinitially, when I heard about
this, I was again, like, whodoes this? Like, that seems so
cutthroat. But when it wasframed to me, certain questions
started to emerge about, like,who's in your circle of friends,
right? Are these people whoenergize you, or are they
(24:27):
depleting you? Are they peoplethat are givers, or are they
takers? Right? So, like, reallybeginning to think about all the
energy that you put into arelationship dynamic. We're all
so like at capacity when itcomes to time. The world has
never moved as fast as it'smoving now. And so if to the
(24:48):
point that you just made youwant to spend more time with
people, I'm gonna go out on alimb and say you probably don't
want to spend time witheveryone.
Valerie Friedlander (24:57):
Yeah. I mean, that's that's true. Or, or
I don't want to in the same way,right? Like, I don't necessarily
want to spend the same way orkind of time, like, it's
different shapes with differentpeople based on what my capacity
is and what their capacity is.
Danielle Marshall (25:15):
Absolutely true. And there are probably
people you have encountered, asI'm sure most listeners have,
that you're like, you know, if Inever connect with that person
again, I will be okay, right?
Like, it's, it is just thenature of this. And so when I do
the friendship audit, I'm askingmyself questions. And it is not
to just eliminate people off thetop, but it's really asking
(25:36):
myself, like, is this personmoving in a direction that I
value, that I can see myselfbeing part of, or are we growing
apart? And I think that level ofhonesty with ourselves means we
can have richer relationshipswith the people we choose to
keep in our world.
Valerie Friedlander (25:55):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to take
that intentional time. I thinkthat's a that's a big piece of
what I'm hearing invited in allof this is to take that
intentional time to really lookat what is what is true. Like
you said, what is true for meright now, I'll often say, like,
what's working, what's notworking, but I really like that
(26:18):
question of what is true. Iactually, you know, as we're
saying, that I had someonerespond to a newsletter not too
long ago. Then I sent out, andshe mentioned how she was
feeling really overwhelmed bythe question of, how are you and
like, that was just thatquestion. Was like, No, again,
(26:39):
it's, it doesn't work. Thatquestion doesn't work. And she,
and I can't remember if it wasshe and her colleagues or
friends, or maybe both, like theone, the colleagues that are
friends, maybe had startedasking each other what's real,
instead of, how are you and thatanyway, that that question that
you were asking of like, what istrue today. What I liked about
(27:03):
that idea of like, what's realhas to do with taking a minute
to actually check in, not in theoverwhelming like, how are you
but what's what's real rightnow?
Danielle Marshall (27:14):
Yeah, I have such a deep appreciation, and
it's funny that you picked up onthat particular thing, because
when we got on our call today, Iasked you how, yeah, and when I
asked that, it is because Iactually care, in this instance,
to know the answer. We don'talways do that. Sometimes it's
simply just a formality. It is agreeting that we give people.
(27:36):
But I have also made a pivot inhow I ask questions when I check
in with people, depending onwhat the dynamics are, I've kind
of moved to and now this is myif I'm networking, I always ask
this question, what's been thebest five minutes of your day
today? And it's been so fun tohear what comes up for people,
because I think one, it'sunexpected, but two, it allows a
(28:00):
level of like, maybe freedom forpeople to just say whatever it
is. Like, one day, I was at a itwas actually at a fundraiser,
and someone told me theirdaughter just got accepted into
her dream college, and someoneelse told me they had won a
major award in their sector. Andso I'm like, I would have never
known these things. And so itgave me an opportunity to one
(28:20):
celebrate with them. But I justthink at a time where there's so
much just heaviness in theworld, being able to also really
figure out what lights peopleup, what is real for them,
whether you want to take it likereal meaning, like, Hey, give me
everything you're not going todo that with every person, or if
you want to focus on somethingthat is like, uplifting and that
(28:42):
you get to celebrate like, Ithink there's so many ways we
can ask questions and reallybuild better connections than
just using your standard, Hey,how are you what's going on?
Valerie Friedlander (28:51):
Yeah, well, and that's one of the things
that is encouraged with kids,is, instead of saying, How is
your day? Like asking betterquestions. Better questions get
more interesting answers,though, all right, I try not to,
like, give the judgey languageof like, better questions, but
like more curious questions,more specific questions.
Danielle Marshall (29:08):
Yeah. And even with that, you have to get
creative. Because I asked mydaughter the other day, what did
you learn at school today,right? Because I didn't want to
say, how was your day? What didyou learn? And she's like,
nothing, yeah. So that now I'mlike, on my toes, and I have to
find a different way and but Imentioned that because sometimes
when you offer up a question outof curiosity, you don't know how
(29:30):
the other person is going toreceive it, how they're going to
take it, but I don't feel offput by it. I just ask a
different question.
Valerie Friedlander (29:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So the perfectionist in me hearswhat was the best five minutes
of your day? And I'm like, Idon't know.. The best? The best?
Well, I mean, drinking my firstsip of coffee was good, but was
it the best, or was itsomething, you know.
Danielle Marshall (29:56):
That's funny.
Valerie Friedlander (29:59):
Yeah, again, like you said, depends on
who you're talking to. I mean,it might be an obvious best,
like, something awesome mighthave happened, but it could be
like, a pretty basic day. Like Iasked my my son, what was your
favorite part of your day today?
It's inevitably, recess. It'salways recess. Like it's that's
gonna be the answer every day.
(30:20):
It speaks to how kids really doneed to play and run around, but
that's a whole notherconversation. And so that's the
first thing that comes up. Butthe other thing that that I does
make me think of is thedifference of like, what
questions we ask, and you talk alot about curiosity, and asking
a more open, curious questionwill always invite somebody to
(30:42):
think a little bit more thanthey would with a closed yes or
no question. One of the thingsas a coach, you know, we learn
certain ways to ask questionsand how to ask curious
questions, like Why questionstend to feel judgy, how
questions create overwhelm, whatquestions tend to be more open,
but I am. I would love to know alittle bit about what questions
(31:08):
or what ways that you helppeople engage more curiosity,
like when they haven't gonethrough a training to be a
coach, but like to to show uplike you mentioned, getting
people together to talk abouthow things are going in a
workplace as an example, andhaving that conversation, I
could see that going a varietyof ways. If someone didn't have
(31:30):
the skills like hadn't hiredsomeone like you to help them
facilitate that kind ofconversation, people tend to
fall back into their patterns,and if an organization has
unintentionally developed aculture where people aren't
necessarily feeling open. Whathelps them show up to that
(31:52):
curiosity or bring in morecuriosity?
Danielle Marshall (31:56):
Yeah, I I always start with goals no
matter what, and so when I saythat to people, like, it could
be an organizational goal, whichis a very detailed goal, or it
could be something morepersonal, you know, if you were
talking about family or friends,like, I want to spend more time
with people. I want to invitethat into the conversation,
(32:16):
because now it gives mesomething to be more curious
about. So if you say to me, youknow, I want to spend more time
with my family and friends.
Okay, great. What's important toyou about them, right? And so as
we start to dive into that, thatnaturally now segues off into
different things, like maybewhen I was growing up, we didn't
(32:37):
have a lot of time to spendtogether. I'm really wanting to
cultivate that in my familytoday. Wow. So what activities
have you done to bring that tolife? Already, right? It's a
very natural segue.
Valerie Friedlander (32:50):
Okay, so I'm seeing the theme here, and
that is knowing what you want,the goals, what's it and why?
What's important to you aboutthat goal, and then even just
asking questions everywhere,right? Like, not just, okay, I
have the answer and now we'restopping. But like, what
(33:13):
question could I ask about that?
Danielle Marshall (33:17):
What else might be true?
Valerie Friedlander (33:18):
Yeah, what else might be true? I love that
question too.
Danielle Marshall (33:21):
So that is probably my top question that I
like to ask people and myself.
So like, that's the other thingI want to be really clear about
coaches. Coach ourselves,because we can get stuck in our
own heads at time. But if I askthis question of what else might
be true, it opens up so manydoors. So even if I would, it
was a pretty benign issue we'retalking about. And I say, you
(33:43):
know, I'm just, you know, I makea clear definitive like, this is
my favorite candy. Like, well,what else might be true about
this? Or, do you like otherthings? Do you know? Are there
other brands you like? I could,I could spend some time in that
space. But I also find the Whatelse might be true question to
be really helpful when peoplehave limiting beliefs. So where
we are in the world, people havea lot of judgments about other
(34:07):
people right now.
Valerie Friedlander (34:10):
I had no idea. I'm sorry,
Danielle Marshall (34:12):
Amazing, huh?
But this idea of what else mightbe true becomes really important
to me when someone sayssomething along the lines of,
you know, how they are, yeah,they always do this thing. And
I'm like, do they What elsemight be true, right? Is this a
case of always, or is it a, youknow, is it a pattern and
(34:33):
sometimes it is, or is thissomething that you had one
experience around, and you'venow drawn some pretty definitive
conclusions for yourself. Whatelse might be true? Yeah, and
even if I were to apply that inan organizational setting,
something as simple as thisindividual came to work today
(34:55):
and they were late, there'salways going. Be someone at the
company who says, Oh, they justdon't even care. They're not
responsible. They don't respectmy time, right? Fill in the
blank here, and then I have toask what else might be true,
because we don't know. Theycould have had a sick pet at
home that they found themselvescleaning up after this morning.
(35:16):
They could have gotten a flattire on the highway. They could
have just maybe oversleptbecause they were up all night,
right? They were working on abig project. I don't know, until
I ask you, yeah. And so avoidingthe tendency, I think, to simply
make assumptions by leaning intocuriosity and as I say that
(35:40):
again, I will admit, humbly, Iam still practicing. Because
there are days where theassumption is such a driving
force, it is hard to put itdown. And then I have to say,
Danielle, what else could betrue?
Valerie Friedlander (35:56):
Yeah, well, and I think that's true for all
of us. The more rushed we are,the more likely we're going to
automatically fill in the blank,because it's easier and faster,
we are able to do thingsquicker, when we can just fill
the blank in and then actaccordingly, instead of taking
the time to pause and check inand ask the questions. And so
(36:20):
there's a lot of push to not dothat. And so you mentioned how
important hope, like we needhope right now. And one of the
things that someone saidrecently, and I talked about in
the earlier podcast, is abouthow hope is a practice. And what
is really striking me right nowin this conversation, is how
(36:43):
even just slowing down to askquestions opens up more access
to possibilities which isintrinsically tied to hope.
Danielle Marshall (36:56):
Yes, 100% right. It is very difficult to
have hope when you don't see apossible pathway forward and
sometimes in life. And I wouldsay this is one of those
moments, it's hard to see whatthat pathway is, but if you ask
(37:16):
enough questions to enoughpeople, you're going to get
other ideas. How could we tacklethis? What else might be true,
right? Even understanding what'simportant to another person will
now train your eyes and yourlens on something you probably
weren't attending to before,because it wasn't your priority,
but it is certainly theirs. Andso from that, not to say that
(37:39):
we're going to addresseverything that we learn through
this path of curiosity, butgenerally, you're able to pick
up enough threads that you'relike, I see something emerging
that wasn't there for meyesterday.
Valerie Friedlander (37:49):
Yeah. So knowing that we are heading into
closing out what has been aextraordinarily difficult year,
I think I would love to invitelisteners to engage something
engage some of these questionsas you close out the year, to
(38:12):
give yourself a little bit ofspace to close out this year.
And I'm wondering, Danielle,would you give folks two things?
One, let everybody know wherethey can find you, and then two,
I know you have something onyour website about helping
(38:32):
people show up your curiosityplaybook. Would you share what
you would hope people would stepinto as they close their year
out.
Danielle Marshall (38:45):
Yeah, so the first thing that I'm going to
say, and this is slightlydisconnected from what you said,
but also what I would hope forthem...
Valerie Friedlander (38:52):
Yeah.
Danielle Marshall (38:53):
Is to really take stock of who you want to be
in this world, right? If, again,there are no limits. There are
no restrictions. How do I wantto show up? What is the legacy I
seek to leave behind? If you canhave that quiet moment of
reflection with yourself, thisis part of your personal brand,
(39:15):
we can now begin to askourselves questions around, how
often am I actually steppinginto this vision I have for
myself. How do my behaviorsalign with this vision I have?
And if we're to be reallyhonest, what behaviors hinder me
from stepping into this vision?
We are so quick right now to putblame on other people and to
(39:40):
point fingers. This is a momentto look in the mirror and say,
am I actually being the type ofhuman that I most desire to be?
So that is that answer.
Valerie Friedlander (39:54):
Yes. Thank you.
Danielle Marshall (39:55):
Folks can find me... You can find me on
LinkedIn, at Danielle Marshall.
You can go to my website, whichis www.culture-principles.com,
and I'm sure that'll be in theshow. It sure will, yeah. So
those are the best ways to findme, or culture principles on
Instagram as well. And you havea podcast. I do have a podcast,
(40:18):
so I would love for you to comein and follow us over there or
listen to an episode or two. Somy podcast is called Unpacked
Culture Chronicles. And what weare exploring in this podcast
are cultural similarities anddifferences and how we begin to
bridge across them.
Valerie Friedlander (40:37):
I love it, yes. So we've lightly touched on
a number of things, and so thatis a great place to go even
deeper on all of these thingswith Danielle. So I invite
everybody to check those linksout in the show notes as well as
I will have a link to yourcuriosity playbook so people can
access that as well.
Danielle Marshall (40:57):
Yeah, can I put one last plug in for that
playbook? Absolutely So forfolks who are interested in
having difficult conversations,hard conversations, and are
seeking ways to one answer someof these questions, like, what
are the questions I should beasking? Number one, I developed
a playbook for you that is goingto help you ground yourself
(41:19):
before the conversation. Thinkabout some of the languaging you
can use in the middle of theconversation. But also, and I
think very importantly, is howdo we close the conversation
with care so that we remain inright relationship with one
another?
Valerie Friedlander (41:34):
I love it.
That's fabulous. So yes, therewill be a link for that in the
show notes, and then. Thank youso much. I love to wrap up with
two questions, first being, whatdoes it mean to you to be
unlimited?
Danielle Marshall (41:50):
It is freedom. Unlimited is freedom.
It is freedom of choice, of howto show up in the world. It is
freedom to change your mind.
Folks, you do not have to getlocked into one belief system.
You are welcome to change yourmind. These are things that
represent, I think,unlimitedness. To me.
Valerie Friedlander (42:06):
Yeah, awesome. And what song do you
listen to when you want to evokethat unlimited feeling?
Danielle Marshall (42:15):
Yeah, there is a song Not Your Average Girl,
by India Arie.
Valerie Friedlander (42:21):
Oh, yeah.
Danielle Marshall (42:21):
I really, really like that, because she
leans so much into I am. I amsimply who I am, and I'm
beautiful and I am wise and I amall the things, right? I am
enough,
Valerie Friedlander (42:31):
Yes, yeah.
I love it. Awesome. Thank youagain, Danielle, for joining me.
I just love this conversation.
Danielle Marshall (42:39):
Yeah, Valerie, thanks so much. I love
you as a host, this was awonderful conversation. Thank
you.
Valerie Friedlander (42:44):
Thank you so much for listening. I really
appreciate you being here, and Ihope that you enjoyed this
conversation as much as I did.
Just a reminder to check out theshow notes for links to all the
things, and if you are lookingfor support to enter the new
year with more intentionality,to reflect on where you've been,
to choose how you want to moveforward, building goals,
(43:05):
building a strategic plan,developing a vision aligning
with your values. All of thosethings are things that I help my
clients with, and if you wouldlike to explore what coaching
together would look like in thenew year, please grab a spot on
my calendar. There's a link tosign up for an exploration call,
and I'd love to talk with you.
(43:26):
There's one more episode left inthis season of mindset
Unlimited, so keep your eye outfor that, and I will talk to you
all next time.
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