October 16, 2024 • 44 mins
Learning self-advocacy to strengthen collective action is a critical component of sustainable social change. Those of us socialized as women are often conditioned to prioritize supporting others, which can make self-advocacy more difficult. However, by connecting to our own value and values, and speaking up for ourselves even when it’s uncomfortable, we lead by example and inspire others to do the same. Cultivating this sense of self and worth strengthens our resilience, reducing fragility when engaging with diverse perspectives. It also empowers us to lead collaboratively and contribute to collective action, rather than remaining trapped in hierarchical, individualistic, and oppressive ways of being.
In this episode of Unlimited, I invited Jenique Jones (she/her), Executive Director at WhyHunger, to join me in a conversation around social change through learning self-advocacy to strengthen collective action.
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- The impact of how you talk to yourself
- Asking questions as advocacy for equity
- Collaborative vs authoritarian leadership
- Food and music as bridges for connection
LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE:
The Pressure to Love Your Job with Cristin Downs
Micro-Actions to Manifest Big Change with Taina Brown
Dealing with Impostor Syndrome
CONNECT WITH JENIQUE:
Website
LinkedIn
WhyHunger Instagram
WhyHunger TikTok
CONNECT WITH VALERIE:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Friedlander (00:00):
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of unlimited. Today weare talking about learning self
advocacy to strengthencollective action. Those of us
who are socialized as women sooften want to support others or
conditioned to support others,and that advocacy for others is
(00:24):
safer, easier than advocatingfor ourselves. And yet, self
advocacy lays the foundation fora sustainable advocacy as well
as our own ability to engagecollectively, which necessitates
(00:44):
collaborative engagement, so tohave that self connection, to
have that understanding ofourselves and our own value and
our own values, to be able tospeak up for ourselves where it
may feel uncomfortable is keyfor multiple reasons. One is
(01:09):
because it leads by example. Itsets the stage for others to do
the same because they see itbeing done. It also is important
because it allows us to alsoreceive, to have a solid
(01:30):
foundation in ourselves, aconnection within ourselves,
allows for resiliency, reducesfragility in our ability to hear
other ideas and otherexperiences and ways of being,
such that we can also lead in acollaborative way. We can feed
(01:54):
into collective action. Thispodcast is based in the idea of
individual empowerment withsocial systems awareness. And I
felt like this topic is so keyas we start to think, What does
working together outside of thisindividualistic, hierarchical
model look like when we thinkabout the changes that we need
(02:21):
to make in the world, and thatidea of being the change that we
want to see in the world. Howdoes that then feed into that
change, into thinkingcollectively and outside of
individualistic thinking, andyet we live in this society
that's functioning the way itis, so there is a lot of
unlearning to be done andreconnection to ourselves to be
(02:44):
done in order to be able toconnect. But what does that look
like, tangibly out in the world?
So to engage this conversation,I invited Janique Jones, the
executive director at whyhunger, to join me with a
diverse background, working ingovernment and nonprofits,
spanning the New York StateSenate, the New York City
(03:05):
Department of Education and CityHarvest, Janique has been
steadfast in her mission toimprove the lives of
marginalized and underservedpopulations and make a
difference in the world. Janiquecomes to why hunger after 14
years serving as an integralpart of the leadership of City
Harvest, one of the largest foodrescue organizations. As the
Vice President of ProgramOperations and policy, she
(03:29):
oversaw the distribution of 10sof millions of pounds of food to
soup kitchens, food pantries andcommunity food programs
throughout New York City. Shealso worked tirelessly with
partners to increase access tofresh produce and promote
nutritious and budget consciousmeal choices for residents
recognized as a strategicpartner and trusted advisor.
(03:51):
Janique excels in definingstrategies that align with why
hunger's vision and driveprogrammatic growth. Her keen
analysis of operations keyprojects and performance metrics
guides critical decision makingand steers organizational
transformation. Her leadershipqualities shine through in her
people centered approach anative New Yorker. Janique lives
(04:12):
in Brooklyn, New York with herwife, Kayla, some of the things
that we talk about in thisepisode are the impact of how
you talk to yourself, askingquestions as advocacy for
equity, collaborative versusauthoritarian, leadership and
food and music as bridges forconnection. I am so excited to
(04:33):
share this conversation withyou. So now without further ado,
let's get started. Janiqueshares such powerful nuggets in
our conversation, I can't waitto share it with you. So now
without further ado, let's getstarted.
Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
(04:53):
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard, and let's unlock a light
that's as badass as you are.
(05:20):
Welcome, Jenique, I'm so excitedto have you on unlimited today.
Jenique Jones (05:24):
Thank you for having me, and I'm looking
forward to this conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (05:28):
Me too.
Before we dive into this topic,I like to start off with a
question of, What is a limitthat you took for granted that
you have since unlearned?
Jenique Jones (05:41):
I think the limit that I took for grant... I don't
know if I took it for granted orif it was just ingrained in me
that I had to be perfect. Youknow that if I wanted a job, I
had to fill every category. If Idid a presentation, I couldn't,
(06:03):
you know, they try to beat theums out of you over all of those
things and and realize that thatwas just a lot of unlearned
behavior, and particularly beinga black woman where, you know,
got to know twice as much to gethalf as far, just having that in
my brain and so and it was veryfreeing when I was like, You
(06:24):
know what? I'm human. We'regonna make mistakes. Things
aren't gonna be perfect. Andstop beating myself up about
that. I think it was a real itset me free.
Valerie Friedlander (06:34):
When you say, set you free. Would you be
willing to share a little bitabout what difference did it
make for you personally, andthen also in terms of your work?
Jenique Jones (06:45):
I think that there's a habit to beat up on
yourself when you make mistakesor when you present in a way
that is not quote, unquoteperfect. And so I think it does
more mental and emotional damagethan anything, because I find
that when you harp on themistakes, you actually make more
(07:06):
of them, because now you're sohyper focused. And so it's like
when someone says, you know, trynot to say this word, and then
that's the only word in yourhead, yes. And so for me, it's
just, I think, helped me fromjust a mental space, like, I
don't stress over things, I letthings go, which I am certain is
going to lead to me living to be107 that's the number I'm going
(07:29):
for, just because I don't haveto worry about high blood
pressure and all those things.
Valerie Friedlander (07:32):
Why 107?
Jenique Jones (07:34):
I don't know.
It's just, it's, it's a weirdthing, like, I've always said,
you know, if I win the lotto,it's going to be for $452
million just random numbers thatI've picked out of the universe,
but I think in a work capacity,where it's helped me is
especially as a leader, I amable to model for other people
that mistakes are okay, thatit's about learning from them,
(07:56):
it's not about beating yourselfup. And so it allows me to be a
better leader. Yes, that makes alot of sense. In I talk to
people around what cultivatestrust in a space, and that
ability to be oneself and togrow, which, if you're not
making mistakes, or you're notallowed to make mistakes, you're
(08:18):
not growing. So the ability togrow, to learn, to evolve, is a
space that feels safer than onethat is hyper critical and like
you have to do all the things.
Valerie Friedlander (08:31):
So that makes a lot of sense, as well as
the focus on what you don'twant, like something that I talk
a lot about, which is, whenpeople come to me, they usually
tell me, when I say, like, whyare we on a call? They're like,
I want to feel less stressed.
Jenique Jones (08:46):
Yeah
Valerie Friedlander (08:47):
You know what we're focused on. Even if
we're trying to move away fromit, we're still it's like
running backwards, like I'mrunning in, more likely to run
into things than when I turnaround and go, This is what I
want more of. It's almost likewe're conditioned to make it
easier for the system to system.
Jenique Jones (09:06):
Oh, yeah. Well, that's, that's the purpose,
right? That's, that's why we'vebeen ingrained with these
things. Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander (09:12):
Yeah. So I think this feeds really nicely
into our topic about selfadvocacy, and of course, it's
how it feeds into thencollective advocacy, because
it's very hard to advocate foroneself when you're beating
yourself up, when you're tellingyourself over and over again
that you haven't earnedsomething, that you don't
(09:34):
deserve something, what has beenyour experience with that shift
for you, like going from thespace of, okay, I don't have to
be perfect, to being able tothen advocate.
Jenique Jones (09:47):
Yeah, and I think they're very closely related,
because I think in letting go ofI need to be perfect, it also
allows you to accept who youare. You can't advocate for
yourself if you think you'refailing, or if you think you're
not good enough because you'renot meeting every standard, or
(10:08):
you're not measuring up. So Ithink when you let go of one, it
makes it a lot easier to thenstep up and be an advocate. It's
why I think sometimes we seepeople who are wonderful
advocates for others, becausethey give others the grace that
they don't give themselves, andyet they don't do the self
advocating. So for me, what thatlooked like was, and I'll just
(10:30):
get personal for a minute, I wasgoing through a divorce, and I
think to me, that was like afailure, because you promised
forever and did all thesethings, and now it's not
working, and so kind ofaccepting that, no, not a
failure. This relationship justdidn't work. It put me in a
different headspace, and thatthen led to all these other
areas also within that it wasWell, part of why this ended is
(10:54):
because you weren't advocatingfor yourself in this
relationship, right? You weren'tsaying what you needed, and by
the time you said it, you letsomeone get used to 10 years of
all their way, right? And nowit's too late. So that just
shifted things for me, like, ina big way. And this isn't that
we're creeping up on, likealmost 10 years where that went
(11:15):
to work was, I was, I think Iwas an associate director at my
organization. At that time, Iwas making about $80,000 a year
from now, not chump change, butI constantly found myself in
rooms with folks who were CEOsand senior directors and this
and I'm like, Well, why am Ihere? And in some of those
cases, I'll never forget, and Idon't even think I was an
(11:39):
associate director at thispoint, when this happened, going
to a meeting with a majorfunder, and I'm there with my
boss, my boss's boss and myboss's boss, so I'm there with,
like, the CEO, and they're like,Yeah, you'll probably answer one
or two questions. This. Thismeeting's going to be two hours.
You'll you'll answer a couple ofquestions. All the questions
(11:59):
were to me. I had to speak tothese folks for about an hour
and 45 minutes straight with noabsolutely no prep, no nothing.
But I knew the work, yeah, and Ithink that that's what led to
one of my first promotions. Butit also showed that I could be
in these spaces. And so they putme in the more and more and
(12:21):
more. But then the promotionstopped, the money stopped, and
I was told that I was essential.
I'm like, so what does thatmean? I'm an essential part of
this organization. If I'm acentral part of this work, why
am I not at the level of allthese other folks? You know? Why
am I the lowest paid person inthese rooms? Why am I the person
with this the lowest title. Whyam I taking on work and leading
(12:41):
teams without actual authority?
And so when I started to askthose it's not like it was a
light switch and the next day,it was like, here's your
promotion. But what I would sayis, you know, within eight years
I was a VP, and that's like fourshow levels above where I was,
and my salary was over $200,000a year. That does not happen
(13:04):
without me asking thosequestions and saying, What does
it mean to be essential? Like,you're, you're, you're patting
me on the back, but you're notdoing more than that.
Valerie Friedlander (13:14):
Yeah, that is a very common theme, like, if
we just take the kudos, right,like you just take the
compliment, and the complimentis sufficient, and we do that if
we don't, if we're questioningwhether or not we've earned the
place. I've done a number oftalks about like imposter
syndrome and how that's aconditioning, that's not a you
(13:34):
thing, that's a environmentalthing, that you internalized
lack of belonging in a space.
And first we have to identifywhere the issue is, and it's not
a you issue, because when we'veinternalized it, we think it's
an us issue, then we we don'tself advocate, because we think
it's a me problem, whereas, ifyou know, okay, it's this space.
(13:55):
So what do I actually need todo? Maybe it's that mindset
shift initially, to recognizingthat I'm pointing at the wrong
place, and now we're going toshift into, oh, okay, it's this
space, which means that it'sadvocacy, yeah, and I love that.
When we were first talking andyou were like, talking about
(14:16):
self advocacy, I was like,that's the word. That's when we
make that shift. And people go,Well, what do I do now that I
know that this imposter syndromeisn't a individual pathology,
it's a social dynamic, acultural issue, now I need to
turn on advocacy. What does thatlook like?
Jenique Jones (14:40):
I think, I think some of the work is also, it's
not just waking up one day andsaying, Give me what I'm worth.
I think also a lot of selfreflection, right? Like you also
have to be honest with yourself,not just in terms of all things
you're great at and good at. Andyes, you guys should be doing
these things. Me, you also haveto be prepared for the things
(15:04):
maybe you're not so good at,right, because people, the part
of what's going to come back atyou is, well, you need to work
on this, and you need to dothis, and you need to do that.
So I think, one, you have tohave those real conversations
and recognize the weaknesses inthe same way you do the
strengths. For two reasons. One,you then go into that
conversation and you've alreadybeat them at the past. No one
(15:25):
can say, Oh, you need to work onOh, no, yep, I'm already on it.
Look at this training. I'm doingthis. Got it so what? Now?
What's your excuse now? And Ialso think that we have to be
prepared to walk away, like justbecause you advocate does not
mean you're going to get a yes.
Just because you ask does notmean you get a yes. I always say
that I like to look at no is notyet. But there is a point,
(15:47):
especially when we're talkingabout our careers or parts of
our lives, where you do have tosay, okay, not yet. Really is no
or even if this will happen inthe future, it's going to happen
too far down the road, yeah, ormaybe it's not yet for me, but
it's a no here, so it needs tobe elsewhere, that and then you
(16:07):
go into that new space with thisnew confidence, with this new
level of self advocacy, so youdon't end up where you once
were. And I think that that'sreally important. I also think
we have to recognize and it's Italk a lot in my work about how
pay equity is so important, andthat's why women are more food
insecure, for instance, thanmen. But we also have to take
(16:28):
some ownership, because I thinka big part of pay disparities is
also that women don't advocatefor themselves, right, I think.
And I'm not saying all men areagreed, and they don't suffer
from impostor syndrome and allof those things, but I do think
that society has told them, Goout and get it. Be a hunter.
Take what you want, right? Andso they walk into spaces even if
(16:51):
they're faking it, and they'redoing that. And so the salaries
are higher, and the perks andthe benefits and all those
things. So it's also up to us tosay, No, I saw the I saw the
salary range. I'm not taking thebottom look at this is all my
experience.
Valerie Friedlander (17:11):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (17:12):
I think we have to do that too. I think we have
to create that equity forourselves.
Valerie Friedlander (17:17):
Yeah, and recognizing that there's
probably more internalized BSthat we do have to navigate to
get to that point, but knowingthat we have the right to be
there too. And I have acolleague who does career
coaching, Cristen Downs, who Iinterviewed a little bit ago,
(17:38):
one of the things that she'ssaid to me before when we've
been talking about stuff, is, ifyou can check off all the boxes
on a application, like, if youcan be like, I've done all of
the things I meet all thequalifications, you're
overqualified.
Jenique Jones (17:50):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah. I mean, when I took therole at why hunger where I am
now, there were a number ofthings I was like, I don't I've
never done this or I, but itthat was also the excitement of
it, right? Because I knew thatit was going to give me space to
grow and to learn, and it wasgoing to move me to whatever my
next is. But if I took a role,that was exactly what I'm really
(18:13):
good at, and I know how to do,I'm not getting ready for that
next thing. I think part of selfadvocacy is also doing things
that scare you a little bit.
Valerie Friedlander (18:24):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (18:25):
You know, I think that's a big part of it, too.
Valerie Friedlander (18:28):
Yeah. Well, and the the little small steps,
the little micro actions as myfriend, Taina Brown would say,
little micro actions startteaching your brain a new thing,
like, Oh no, I can do this. And,oh, I can advocate by doing
those little steps. Andsometimes you'll get like, I
said no. And if somebody's soused to hearing you say yes,
(18:50):
their conditioning is they'reused to you saying yes, so they
just kind of keep going, andyou're like, No, no, I said, I
said no. But oftentimes we'llprocess that is, oh, they didn't
hear me. Maybe I shouldn't havesaid no instead of like, no, I
got clear, like you were sayingbefore. Of like, I took that
time to really get clear withmyself. This is what I want.
(19:11):
This is what it needs to be, no,and it feels uncomfortable, and
there's a tension, and you knowthat vibration to be like No,
you mentioned starting to askthose questions. What does it
mean to be essential? Do yourecall what some of those
initial conversations were like?
How did you engage that? Did yougo into the office and say, Hey,
(19:35):
I'm curious. You said this word.
What does that mean? Like, or,you know, did it? What are
those, like, the micro things,the little the steps that you
took to start kind of feelingout as this opening here?
what's
Jenique Jones (19:48):
You know, what's really interesting is I remember
the exact day this happened. Iremember where I was. It was
because, you know, you havecheck ins with your supervisor.
So we would have, like, everytwo weeks we would have a check
in, and this was a check in. AndI remember, she was like, I'm
always in my office. Let's go doit in one of the little huddle
rooms. So we're in this littlelike library nook at the office,
and, you know, and we'retalking, and she kind of, and I
(20:10):
think that there was an elementof, like, knowing that it was
time, but not wanting to say it.
So it's like, yeah, you know, wewe really value you and this and
that. And I was just like, sowhat does that mean? I think,
you know. And what happened was,there was fluster, because
normally say that, it's like,Oh, that's great. You value me
and yay. But when I was like,what does that mean? Well, it,
(20:32):
you know, there's somestuttering, and it's like, well,
it means, you know, and this iswhere the word essential, then,
you know, you're really one ofour essential staff members.
And, you know, we feel like, youknow we, we're in a space right
now where we would never want tolose you. And I'm like, okay, so
how do you plan? Like, what doesit look like to acknowledge
someone being essential outsideof just saying it?
Valerie Friedlander (20:57):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (20:58):
We, I remember we ended the conversation with I'll
get back to you. So, um, and Ithink that was because it was,
it was not something that I hadever done, and I'm not even sure
how many others had done it. ButI especially when you're a
nonprofit, I don't know,nonprofits tend to be
predominantly women, and so Ithink that there's a lot of us
are just like, I'm essential,yay. This is great.
Valerie Friedlander (21:21):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (21:21):
And again, it didn't happen overnight. They
started out by saying, we'regoing to give you a larger
bonus, so we're going to giveyou the bonus that the people
above you get to start and I'mlike, I'm not going to turn down
more money. Thank you very much.
But this is also once a year.
I'm essential every day. So,let's continue talking. And I
(21:45):
think it was just, it was reallythat also saying to myself not
to just accept because that waseasy. That would have been very
easy for me to just be like, whoI got this bigger bonus, this is
exciting. Gotta pay off thesecredit cards. And this is gonna
happen every year, because Iwill say that this is not a a
one time thing. It is somethingI'm you still do right, even
(22:07):
now, having this understanding,I'll have times where I'm like,
This isn't right. I should saysomething, and then you, you
kind of almost negotiate yourwith yourself in your head,
okay, well, should I ask forthis much? Was that too much?
Maybe, you know, and you'rehaving all of those moments.
It's not a oh, I'm at this placeof enlightenment, and it's all
(22:30):
perfect. It's still a constantconversation. Or in my head, I
have conversations with myselfall the time.
Valerie Friedlander (22:36):
Yeah, yeah.
I heard that there are somepeople who don't have like, the
voice in their head. I'm not oneof them, but that's wild to me.
I'm like, wow, I don't know whatthat would be like at all. I
have a committee. I mean, it'slike, inside out in there.
Jenique Jones (22:51):
Absolutely.
Valerie Friedlander (22:52):
Yeah. And I think the nonprofit world, so
many people go into those spacesbecause they're passionate about
something they want to make adifference. And there's a whole
mythology around loving yourjob, yeah, if you love your job,
you'll never work a day in yourlife. It's just came up with a
clan, actually, and it's like,no, actually, you're still
working.
Jenique Jones (23:12):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (23:13):
Great if you love it. But like, that's
all so often a way that peopleplay on that in order to exploit
your labor. And so we still needto recognize that it's work,
even if you're passionate aboutit and you love it.
Jenique Jones (23:29):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (23:30):
I'm wondering, as I imagine, that
you're now in a position wherepeople are coming and having
those conversations with you asthe manager position where
people are coming to you. Whatwould you want people who are
stepping into self advocacy toknow about from the perspective
(23:54):
of the person that they're theymight be advocating to?
I
Jenique Jones (23:59):
I think it depends on the person, right?
Because not everybody is goingto welcome your self advocacy.
Valerie Friedlander (24:07):
Well, let's put it as like a from the
perspective of a leader whoactually is encouraging, like
you're on a podcast advocatingfor self advocacy, like as
somebody who appreciates that,like I and I got a piece of
that, which is make sure you'vedone your work ahead of time,
like, make sure you're gettinghonest. And honesty can look
(24:27):
like acknowledging what you'veaccomplished and what you've
done, as well as the placeswhere you need to grow. But it
could also be asking for thatfeedback. Of like, Hey, maybe I
don't have a full perspective onwhat I need to be able to hit
the next level, but I know thatthat should be available to me.
What does that look like? Butwhen you haven't been in that
kind of position where you'rethe person receiving the
(24:49):
conversation, like somebody issaying, hey, I want this,
there's a lot of thoughts about,like, what is this other person
thinking? And to be able todiscern the difference between
somebody who is not receptive,who, you know this space might
be a no in because they're goingto shut it down, versus somebody
who's like, I want you to step Ilike, we need this like,
(25:11):
collectively, as you said, weneed more women, in particular
because of these disparities,like to speak up and advocate
for themselves and putthemselves into positions where,
you know, might be a littleuncomfortable, because our
society's conditioned us not tobe there, but we need to do
that. So as someone who'sreceptive to that, what would
you want people to know who aretrying to do this?
Jenique Jones (25:37):
I think people tell you a lot about who they
are. I think if you're payingattention, people tell you a lot
about who they are, and so, forinstance, with people who work
with me, first thing I did whenI started at my organization
was, I mean, we're small enoughto where I was able to do this,
but I met with every last personon the team. I did not just meet
(25:58):
with my direct reports. I metwith everyone, and I asked
questions, and I sought tounderstand where they wanted to
go, how they saw themselvesfitting into the organization. I
asked questions like, you know,I know you people hate this, but
where do you see yourself infive years? And do not feel like
you have to say you see yourselfhere, because if you see
(26:21):
yourself elsewhere, my job is,how do I prepare you for where
you're going to go? Becausewithout, while I'm doing that,
I'm also getting the best out ofyou with that, that preparation.
And so I think if you havesomeone who is coming to you in
that space, you're pretty muchin a good you're in a good
space, right? You shouldn'tworry about advocating for
(26:42):
yourself, although there arestill people on staff who are
not comfortable with it becauseit's so foreign. But if you see,
if you're in an environmentwhere someone shuts down
conversation, doesn't likefeedback or discourse, that's
probably not someone who's goingto be open to your self
advocacy, because in their mind,they already know what they want
(27:04):
to do. So I think a lot of itis, is you can tell a lot when
you just sit back and kind oflisten see how people treat you,
how do they engage you, how dothey bring you in, and what does
that look like?
Valerie Friedlander (27:17):
That speaks very much to me about like what
I believe leadership to be andin the framework of out of the
individualistic thinking, right?
Like when you're a real leader,you are thinking collectively.
You're thinking about the teamthat you're leading. You are a
unit. You are working together,even if you have different ideas
and different opinions ordifferent perspectives that
(27:39):
that's valuable, because yourecognize that there's a way to
integrate to achieve an overallobjective, that there's a reason
you all are working together.
And then there's the spaceswhere it's like, No, it's my
ideas, it's the way I'm doingthings. And you all just need to
get on board and do what I say,the more authoritarian kind of
(28:02):
viewpoint versus the collectiveviewpoint, and so that that
lends itself into that idea oflike, what does it look like to
generate collective advocacy?
Jenique Jones (28:13):
Yeah.
And when you have a leader whois thinking about the people and
how do we how do we movetogether for this time that we
are together? And your work? Ithink a lot, you know, a lot of
nonprofits are thinkingcollective advocacy, but if
you're not acting that wayinternally, Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (28:33):
It's really hard to effectively act that way
externally to the organization,
Jenique Jones (28:39):
Yeah. And I think so this is one of the
challenges, though, right? Ithink that people need to
understand that collectivedoesn't mean we all agree.
Doesn't mean we all share thesame exact opinion, because I
think that that is often howpeople view that, right? Like if
you are working towards a goaland then you start to disagree
(29:01):
that just throws a lot of thingsin the chaos. Because people are
like, how can we work as a teamif we all are into I'm like, the
part of collective advocacy isalso, it's, it's discourse, but
it's, it's figuring out what theultimate goal is. You might have
your opinion about this. I mighthave my opinion about this, but
we do both share the sameopinion about this piece. So
we're going to work towards thatpart, because I do believe that.
(29:25):
I think every voice matters. Ithink that change rarely happens
because of one person. Right? Welike to think that, you know,
I'm a civil rights buff. MartinLuther King changed the world.
No. Martin Luther King was anamazing man who was a wonderful
spokesperson for a movement, butthere were hundreds of 1000s of
people who made that collectiveaction happen, and even within
(29:47):
that, people had different ideasabout how to move that movement
forward. Not everybody wanted tobe nonviolent, not everybody
wanted to boycott. Not everyonewant, you know, but there was
this ultimate goal, right?
Change rarely happens with oneperson, and so that's kind of
the way that we work. I alsothink that collective action,
especially within anorganization, you cannot work in
(30:11):
silos. You cannot have this teamover here, kind of doing their
thing and never interacting withthis team, or people not being
willing to compromise around howto get things done, right? So
one team might say, you know,I'm just going to say comms.
Might say, this is how I dothings. And if the program team
(30:33):
doesn't like it, well, tough.
But our programs are what drivesour work. So you guys kind of
have to figure you guys got tofigure out how to work together.
And if you've had things brokendown so much to where people
can't work together, there's noway to move forward. And again,
this doesn't we don't have to befriends. You don't all have to
(30:53):
agree on everything, but you dohave to figure out what's
important, what's the ultimategoal, and how do we make this
work?
Valerie Friedlander (31:03):
Yeah, and there's a lot of talking about
how important diverse voices,diverse ideas, diverse lived
experience, diverseperspectives, opinions, are in
solving the collective issues.
Because how can we solve anissue if we're not actually
looking and hearing from thepeople who are experiencing the
(31:26):
issue, all the people who areexperiencing the issue, yeah,
not just my opinion about thepeople experiencing the issue.
Jenique Jones (31:37):
No, I agree. And I think also it's, it's for for
our work because we're talkingabout ending hunger. Ending
hunger is not just saying,Here's food every day, right?
It's deeper than that. And sothe only way we can get our work
done is if we do work as acollective. So we work with
different movements, and we workwith organizations that are
(31:57):
focused on, you know, economicjustice, right? We work with
organizations that are focusedon racial justice. We're working
with folks who are, you know,focused on issues around
sexuality and Patriarch,patriarchy, and because those
are the things that actuallylead to poverty and people being
hungry and not having access tosystems and all these things,
(32:18):
right? We're not able to be theexperts on all things, and so a
big part of how we work is tobring those collectives
together. And again, even withinthat, there are opinions with
our partners and with others wework with. And it's like, well,
that side of your house, we'regonna stay away from that. But
this part, this part works, andthis is the part we're working
together. There's just no waythat we can challenge the
(32:42):
underlying systems that createinequality alone.
Valerie Friedlander (32:46):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (32:47):
And so that's where that collective action is
just vital.
Valerie Friedlander (32:50):
Yeah. And we have to be able to step out
of our own way, in our ownheads, in order to be able to
step into that space. It's oneof the things I see so often, is
when we have that bully in ourheads, and we haven't recognized
that it's not actually us, it'snot necessarily based on a
truth. Or we haven't learned todiscern the difference between
(33:11):
the lies we've internalized andwhat we actually might need to
do, work around or grow around,to be able to see that clearly
there's a fragility that comesfrom that where we can't receive
new information, so it has to beme and mine instead of us and
ours, because I can't receivethat different idea or and I
(33:31):
can't say, You know what? That'syours and this is mine, because
I haven't figured out thatwithin myself
Jenique Jones (33:38):
Exactly. Yep, no.
And I'm also thinking aboutsomething you said earlier, when
you were like, what the selfadvocacy to the collective
advocacy? I think you know thatshift begins when you realize
that your story is a part of alarger narrative.
Valerie Friedlander (33:51):
Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones (33:52):
Right. And I think about this like, I'm going
to take it from my own personalstory, me advocating for myself
set the stage for others on myteam. So by me advocating for
myself, I've given other peoplepermission to do the same. Like
(34:13):
there was a young man on my teamwho started as like a
coordinator, and now he's likedirector of policy work and
doing and he's like acoordinator in, like
transportation. It wasn't evenlike he was a coordinator in
policy, but it gave him thecourage, or not even courage,
but the permission to do thesame, you know? And so I think
(34:34):
when we think about our story,we're all connected. Everything
is connected. It's why they alsosay things like representation
matters and all of these thingsbecause we are a part of a
larger a larger piece. So that'swhy, where that's self advocacy
goes towards the collective aswell.
Valerie Friedlander (34:52):
Yeah, oh, that's that's so powerful and so
important. We talk about rolemodels, you know? That's we. We
all have that ability as we stepinto that ownership of our
space, and to say, you know,this is I do belong here, and I
am going to advocate, and then Ican be in a role where I can
(35:15):
show up for other people and bean example of what it looks like
to think this way and engagethis way. So one of the things
that I know that you've broughtup before that I think ties what
we've been talking abouttogether to one of my wrap up
questions, which is the power ofmusic and food to bring people
(35:37):
together. Tell me more aboutwhat that means for you.
Jenique Jones (35:40):
I mean, just, just think about it. There's a
lot of things that can bringpeople together and so on and so
forth. But even if you thinkabout your family and having a
family meal, right? And youthink about those hot you think
about holidays and such or andwhen I say family, I'm mindful
that that could be friends.
Friendsgiving is a lot of fun,but there's something about
(36:02):
breaking bread that shifts andchanges and creates a common
like a just a joy. And you canfind that joy with people over
food in a really significantway. It's a mutually exciting or
important experience that you'rehaving together. I think music
does the same thing, you know?
(36:26):
Because the only real role Ithink people sometimes have is
you tend to like what you growup with, right? But we also, we
live in such a large worldwhere, for me and I'm old, so it
wasn't Tiktok, but it was like,music videos.
Valerie Friedlander (36:45):
Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones (36:46):
And I remember going home and watching MTV and
discovering a world that I hadnot grown up with, right? I grew
up with R and B and jazz and allthese things, and now I'm like,
listening to this big hair band,I'm listening to Motley Crue,
and I'm listening to all ofthese things, and then I go to
(37:08):
school, and I go to for mymiddle school, it was a very
diverse school, and the factthat I listened to Motley Crue
and Guns N Roses and all thesefolks made it easier for me to
connect with my peers, and thefact that they were listening
to, actually, it was like a verywealthy, preppy white child who
(37:29):
introduced me to, like, hardcorerap. So, like, I had never, I
didn't listen to NWA, I didn'tlisten to that stuff, and it's
and he was like, He's shorterthan me. It was so funny, little
blonde guy. And he's like, Oh,you got to listen to this. But
think about that, like he'sfrom, like, the Upper West Side
of, you know, Manhattan, veryyou know, has a bunch of money.
I'm from, like, Harlem middleclass, and we bonded over music.
(37:53):
And so I just, I think food andmusic do that in a really
significant way. And I like totell people, like, when I was in
applying for the role at whyhunger, one of the questions
that as a member of the staffasked me was, as a black woman,
how did you get to this level?
And I said, Honestly, I thinkit's because I have the ability
to talk to white women aboutSarah McLachlan, and then it's
(38:16):
they were very uncomfortablewith that answer. The older,
white woman who was therecruiter was cracking up, but I
was like, it creates thatconnection. So often we have
these barriers because we thinkwe know who people are, and then
there's these little momentswhere you're like, Oh, you're
(38:37):
actually like me. You too, loveFumbling Towards Ecstasy and get
very emotional when you'relistening to, you know the song
like and suddenly that barriersdown. So I think that that's,
that's how I think of music, andI also think of music as a tool
for social activism. I thinkthat, you know, Harry Chapin was
(39:00):
onto something when he createdwhy hunger? I think he
understood that his voice hadmore weight than than maybe
others who were in thisstruggle. And so he was like,
I'm going to use my voice toamplify other voices. I think
that, you know, even if youthink about folks who said that,
who did we are the world? Theysaid they were inspired by Harry
(39:23):
Chapin. And folks had known thatthere was this poverty and this
this famine happening, you know,in Africa for so long, but no
one was doing anything about it.
But yet, one song like shifted,and suddenly everyone is aware
of this atrocity that'shappening. I think that is, that
(39:46):
is the power of music, and Ithink we don't use it as much as
we probably should anymore, butjust if Beyonce can get
everybody wearing silver to aconcert. So to speak, and people
of all stripes and colors.
Imagine what else she could do.
(40:06):
Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift isgetting people to register to
vote. There's a real power inmusic that we have to really
harness and use. That's what whyhunger tries to do. We really
want to tap in to continuingthat Harry Chapin legacy of
using music to amplify.
Valerie Friedlander (40:23):
I love that as as a musician, that's that is
really important, I mean, and Ihear in that also, just like
leaning into your gifts, andwhere do you, where do you have
the power to amplify? And itdoesn't, you know, we can think
outside of the standard boxes ofwhat that supposed to look like,
or, or, you know, think thatwe're limited by, oh, well, I
(40:46):
don't do this. Well, what do youdo? What? What is accessible to
you? And I will say with themusic thing. I mean, one of the
places I've gotten a lot ofrecent bonding with my kids,
surprisingly, was that bye, byebye. And think is now back in
style thanks to the DeadpoolWolverine movie, and so, like,
my kids are singing that, andI'm just like, this is very
(41:09):
weird. This is like high school.
What are you? What's happeningright now? What is that? So I
mean, but it's like, it'sbonding. It absolutely when we
can connect to each other. Andmusic has a very embodied
experience. You know, we'rehitting things on multiple
levels where we can resonatetogether. And I say I use
(41:32):
resonate intentionally, becausethat's what music does. There's
a vibration to music that wefeel. So I love that, and so I'm
actually, I'm going to ask youin reverse order what I usually
ask, because I again, it feelsvery appropriate. So I have a
playlist that I put togetherfrom all of my guests telling me
(41:55):
the song, or at least one of thesongs that they like to listen
to when they want to tap into anunlimited feeling. So what might
be one of those songs for you?
Jenique Jones (42:11):
For me, if I want to feel like I can like
unlimited feeling, or I can doanything, it has to be either
very up tempo or really likesoul stirring. And also, I think
there's something about feelingjoyful that creates that
feeling, and even though there'sa lot of controversy around her
right now, but there's a songcalled All Right by Janet
(42:33):
Jackson from Rhythm Nation. Andyou just, you just, I listen to
that song, and I'm just happy,and I feel like and I think that
happiness fuels you in a way.
And I think back to the musicvideo and all of that and the
bright colors, and so I'd say,All Right, by Janet Jackson.
Valerie Friedlander (42:51):
And I feel like you've started to answer
this question... The other oneis, what does it mean to you to
be unlimited?
Jenique Jones (42:59):
I'm not going to say it means to be without fear.
I think it, for me, it meansthat doing, despite the fear,
you know, stepping into spacesand you know being a little
uncomfortable, and beingcomfortable with being
uncomfortable, to me that thatis when you're without limits is
(43:21):
when you can do that. Because Ithink fear and uncomfort so
often limit us. But when you cando that, I think the sky's the
limit.
Valerie Friedlander (43:31):
Yeah, I like to say, treat them like
caution signs, but not stopsigns
Jenique Jones (43:35):
Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander (43:36):
Yeah, I love that. So if people would
like to connect further, get toknow why hunger. Where should
they find you and theorganization?
Jenique Jones (43:48):
Yeah, they should find us@whyhunger.org, we're
right there well, and then we'reon all social platforms. Is why
hunger? With the exception ofTiktok, where we're why hunger
talk, someone randomly uses itand we can't get it back. Other
than that, that's where we are.
Valerie Friedlander (44:06):
Awesome. I will have links in the show
notes for everybody, and thankyou so much for coming on. I
have really enjoyed thisconversation.
Jenique Jones (44:14):
This was fun.
Thanks.
Valerie Friedlander (44:16):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode. Please
share it, leave me a review,take a screenshot and post it on
social with a shout out to me,send it to a friend or, you
know, all of the above. Want tohang out more, join me on
Instagram, or, better yet, geton my mailing list to make sure
you don't miss out on anything,and remember your possibilities
(44:40):
are as unlimited as you are.
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
Hello, my friends and welcome to another
(00:02):
episode of unlimited. Today weare talking about learning self
advocacy to strengthencollective action. Those of us
who are socialized as women sooften want to support others or
conditioned to support others,and that advocacy for others is
(00:24):
safer, easier than advocatingfor ourselves. And yet, self
advocacy lays the foundation fora sustainable advocacy as well
as our own ability to engagecollectively, which necessitates
(00:44):
collaborative engagement, so tohave that self connection, to
have that understanding ofourselves and our own value and
our own values, to be able tospeak up for ourselves where it
may feel uncomfortable is keyfor multiple reasons. One is
(01:09):
because it leads by example. Itsets the stage for others to do
the same because they see itbeing done. It also is important
because it allows us to alsoreceive, to have a solid
(01:30):
foundation in ourselves, aconnection within ourselves,
allows for resiliency, reducesfragility in our ability to hear
other ideas and otherexperiences and ways of being,
such that we can also lead in acollaborative way. We can feed
(01:54):
into collective action. Thispodcast is based in the idea of
individual empowerment withsocial systems awareness. And I
felt like this topic is so keyas we start to think, What does
working together outside of thisindividualistic, hierarchical
model look like when we thinkabout the changes that we need
(02:21):
to make in the world, and thatidea of being the change that we
want to see in the world. Howdoes that then feed into that
change, into thinkingcollectively and outside of
individualistic thinking, andyet we live in this society
that's functioning the way itis, so there is a lot of
unlearning to be done andreconnection to ourselves to be
(02:44):
done in order to be able toconnect. But what does that look
like, tangibly out in the world?
So to engage this conversation,I invited Janique Jones, the
executive director at whyhunger, to join me with a
diverse background, working ingovernment and nonprofits,
spanning the New York StateSenate, the New York City
(03:05):
Department of Education and CityHarvest, Janique has been
steadfast in her mission toimprove the lives of
marginalized and underservedpopulations and make a
difference in the world. Janiquecomes to why hunger after 14
years serving as an integralpart of the leadership of City
Harvest, one of the largest foodrescue organizations. As the
Vice President of ProgramOperations and policy, she
(03:29):
oversaw the distribution of 10sof millions of pounds of food to
soup kitchens, food pantries andcommunity food programs
throughout New York City. Shealso worked tirelessly with
partners to increase access tofresh produce and promote
nutritious and budget consciousmeal choices for residents
recognized as a strategicpartner and trusted advisor.
(03:51):
Janique excels in definingstrategies that align with why
hunger's vision and driveprogrammatic growth. Her keen
analysis of operations keyprojects and performance metrics
guides critical decision makingand steers organizational
transformation. Her leadershipqualities shine through in her
people centered approach anative New Yorker. Janique lives
(04:12):
in Brooklyn, New York with herwife, Kayla, some of the things
that we talk about in thisepisode are the impact of how
you talk to yourself, askingquestions as advocacy for
equity, collaborative versusauthoritarian, leadership and
food and music as bridges forconnection. I am so excited to
(04:33):
share this conversation withyou. So now without further ado,
let's get started. Janiqueshares such powerful nuggets in
our conversation, I can't waitto share it with you. So now
without further ado, let's getstarted.
Hey there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
(04:53):
business alignment coach, andthis is unlimited. This podcast
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard, and let's unlock a light
that's as badass as you are.
(05:20):
Welcome, Jenique, I'm so excitedto have you on unlimited today.
Jenique Jones (05:24):
Thank you for having me, and I'm looking
forward to this conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (05:28):
Me too.
Before we dive into this topic,I like to start off with a
question of, What is a limitthat you took for granted that
you have since unlearned?
Jenique Jones (05:41):
I think the limit that I took for grant... I don't
know if I took it for granted orif it was just ingrained in me
that I had to be perfect. Youknow that if I wanted a job, I
had to fill every category. If Idid a presentation, I couldn't,
(06:03):
you know, they try to beat theums out of you over all of those
things and and realize that thatwas just a lot of unlearned
behavior, and particularly beinga black woman where, you know,
got to know twice as much to gethalf as far, just having that in
my brain and so and it was veryfreeing when I was like, You
(06:24):
know what? I'm human. We'regonna make mistakes. Things
aren't gonna be perfect. Andstop beating myself up about
that. I think it was a real itset me free.
Valerie Friedlander (06:34):
When you say, set you free. Would you be
willing to share a little bitabout what difference did it
make for you personally, andthen also in terms of your work?
Jenique Jones (06:45):
I think that there's a habit to beat up on
yourself when you make mistakesor when you present in a way
that is not quote, unquoteperfect. And so I think it does
more mental and emotional damagethan anything, because I find
that when you harp on themistakes, you actually make more
(07:06):
of them, because now you're sohyper focused. And so it's like
when someone says, you know, trynot to say this word, and then
that's the only word in yourhead, yes. And so for me, it's
just, I think, helped me fromjust a mental space, like, I
don't stress over things, I letthings go, which I am certain is
going to lead to me living to be107 that's the number I'm going
(07:29):
for, just because I don't haveto worry about high blood
pressure and all those things.
Valerie Friedlander (07:32):
Why 107?
Jenique Jones (07:34):
I don't know.
It's just, it's, it's a weirdthing, like, I've always said,
you know, if I win the lotto,it's going to be for $452
million just random numbers thatI've picked out of the universe,
but I think in a work capacity,where it's helped me is
especially as a leader, I amable to model for other people
that mistakes are okay, thatit's about learning from them,
(07:56):
it's not about beating yourselfup. And so it allows me to be a
better leader. Yes, that makes alot of sense. In I talk to
people around what cultivatestrust in a space, and that
ability to be oneself and togrow, which, if you're not
making mistakes, or you're notallowed to make mistakes, you're
(08:18):
not growing. So the ability togrow, to learn, to evolve, is a
space that feels safer than onethat is hyper critical and like
you have to do all the things.
Valerie Friedlander (08:31):
So that makes a lot of sense, as well as
the focus on what you don'twant, like something that I talk
a lot about, which is, whenpeople come to me, they usually
tell me, when I say, like, whyare we on a call? They're like,
I want to feel less stressed.
Jenique Jones (08:46):
Yeah
Valerie Friedlander (08:47):
You know what we're focused on. Even if
we're trying to move away fromit, we're still it's like
running backwards, like I'mrunning in, more likely to run
into things than when I turnaround and go, This is what I
want more of. It's almost likewe're conditioned to make it
easier for the system to system.
Jenique Jones (09:06):
Oh, yeah. Well, that's, that's the purpose,
right? That's, that's why we'vebeen ingrained with these
things. Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander (09:12):
Yeah. So I think this feeds really nicely
into our topic about selfadvocacy, and of course, it's
how it feeds into thencollective advocacy, because
it's very hard to advocate foroneself when you're beating
yourself up, when you're tellingyourself over and over again
that you haven't earnedsomething, that you don't
(09:34):
deserve something, what has beenyour experience with that shift
for you, like going from thespace of, okay, I don't have to
be perfect, to being able tothen advocate.
Jenique Jones (09:47):
Yeah, and I think they're very closely related,
because I think in letting go ofI need to be perfect, it also
allows you to accept who youare. You can't advocate for
yourself if you think you'refailing, or if you think you're
not good enough because you'renot meeting every standard, or
(10:08):
you're not measuring up. So Ithink when you let go of one, it
makes it a lot easier to thenstep up and be an advocate. It's
why I think sometimes we seepeople who are wonderful
advocates for others, becausethey give others the grace that
they don't give themselves, andyet they don't do the self
advocating. So for me, what thatlooked like was, and I'll just
(10:30):
get personal for a minute, I wasgoing through a divorce, and I
think to me, that was like afailure, because you promised
forever and did all thesethings, and now it's not
working, and so kind ofaccepting that, no, not a
failure. This relationship justdidn't work. It put me in a
different headspace, and thatthen led to all these other
areas also within that it wasWell, part of why this ended is
(10:54):
because you weren't advocatingfor yourself in this
relationship, right? You weren'tsaying what you needed, and by
the time you said it, you letsomeone get used to 10 years of
all their way, right? And nowit's too late. So that just
shifted things for me, like, ina big way. And this isn't that
we're creeping up on, likealmost 10 years where that went
(11:15):
to work was, I was, I think Iwas an associate director at my
organization. At that time, Iwas making about $80,000 a year
from now, not chump change, butI constantly found myself in
rooms with folks who were CEOsand senior directors and this
and I'm like, Well, why am Ihere? And in some of those
cases, I'll never forget, and Idon't even think I was an
(11:39):
associate director at thispoint, when this happened, going
to a meeting with a majorfunder, and I'm there with my
boss, my boss's boss and myboss's boss, so I'm there with,
like, the CEO, and they're like,Yeah, you'll probably answer one
or two questions. This. Thismeeting's going to be two hours.
You'll you'll answer a couple ofquestions. All the questions
(11:59):
were to me. I had to speak tothese folks for about an hour
and 45 minutes straight with noabsolutely no prep, no nothing.
But I knew the work, yeah, and Ithink that that's what led to
one of my first promotions. Butit also showed that I could be
in these spaces. And so they putme in the more and more and
(12:21):
more. But then the promotionstopped, the money stopped, and
I was told that I was essential.
I'm like, so what does thatmean? I'm an essential part of
this organization. If I'm acentral part of this work, why
am I not at the level of allthese other folks? You know? Why
am I the lowest paid person inthese rooms? Why am I the person
with this the lowest title. Whyam I taking on work and leading
(12:41):
teams without actual authority?
And so when I started to askthose it's not like it was a
light switch and the next day,it was like, here's your
promotion. But what I would sayis, you know, within eight years
I was a VP, and that's like fourshow levels above where I was,
and my salary was over $200,000a year. That does not happen
(13:04):
without me asking thosequestions and saying, What does
it mean to be essential? Like,you're, you're, you're patting
me on the back, but you're notdoing more than that.
Valerie Friedlander (13:14):
Yeah, that is a very common theme, like, if
we just take the kudos, right,like you just take the
compliment, and the complimentis sufficient, and we do that if
we don't, if we're questioningwhether or not we've earned the
place. I've done a number oftalks about like imposter
syndrome and how that's aconditioning, that's not a you
(13:34):
thing, that's a environmentalthing, that you internalized
lack of belonging in a space.
And first we have to identifywhere the issue is, and it's not
a you issue, because when we'veinternalized it, we think it's
an us issue, then we we don'tself advocate, because we think
it's a me problem, whereas, ifyou know, okay, it's this space.
(13:55):
So what do I actually need todo? Maybe it's that mindset
shift initially, to recognizingthat I'm pointing at the wrong
place, and now we're going toshift into, oh, okay, it's this
space, which means that it'sadvocacy, yeah, and I love that.
When we were first talking andyou were like, talking about
(14:16):
self advocacy, I was like,that's the word. That's when we
make that shift. And people go,Well, what do I do now that I
know that this imposter syndromeisn't a individual pathology,
it's a social dynamic, acultural issue, now I need to
turn on advocacy. What does thatlook like?
Jenique Jones (14:40):
I think, I think some of the work is also, it's
not just waking up one day andsaying, Give me what I'm worth.
I think also a lot of selfreflection, right? Like you also
have to be honest with yourself,not just in terms of all things
you're great at and good at. Andyes, you guys should be doing
these things. Me, you also haveto be prepared for the things
(15:04):
maybe you're not so good at,right, because people, the part
of what's going to come back atyou is, well, you need to work
on this, and you need to dothis, and you need to do that.
So I think, one, you have tohave those real conversations
and recognize the weaknesses inthe same way you do the
strengths. For two reasons. One,you then go into that
conversation and you've alreadybeat them at the past. No one
(15:25):
can say, Oh, you need to work onOh, no, yep, I'm already on it.
Look at this training. I'm doingthis. Got it so what? Now?
What's your excuse now? And Ialso think that we have to be
prepared to walk away, like justbecause you advocate does not
mean you're going to get a yes.
Just because you ask does notmean you get a yes. I always say
that I like to look at no is notyet. But there is a point,
(15:47):
especially when we're talkingabout our careers or parts of
our lives, where you do have tosay, okay, not yet. Really is no
or even if this will happen inthe future, it's going to happen
too far down the road, yeah, ormaybe it's not yet for me, but
it's a no here, so it needs tobe elsewhere, that and then you
(16:07):
go into that new space with thisnew confidence, with this new
level of self advocacy, so youdon't end up where you once
were. And I think that that'sreally important. I also think
we have to recognize and it's Italk a lot in my work about how
pay equity is so important, andthat's why women are more food
insecure, for instance, thanmen. But we also have to take
(16:28):
some ownership, because I thinka big part of pay disparities is
also that women don't advocatefor themselves, right, I think.
And I'm not saying all men areagreed, and they don't suffer
from impostor syndrome and allof those things, but I do think
that society has told them, Goout and get it. Be a hunter.
Take what you want, right? Andso they walk into spaces even if
(16:51):
they're faking it, and they'redoing that. And so the salaries
are higher, and the perks andthe benefits and all those
things. So it's also up to us tosay, No, I saw the I saw the
salary range. I'm not taking thebottom look at this is all my
experience.
Valerie Friedlander (17:11):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (17:12):
I think we have to do that too. I think we have
to create that equity forourselves.
Valerie Friedlander (17:17):
Yeah, and recognizing that there's
probably more internalized BSthat we do have to navigate to
get to that point, but knowingthat we have the right to be
there too. And I have acolleague who does career
coaching, Cristen Downs, who Iinterviewed a little bit ago,
(17:38):
one of the things that she'ssaid to me before when we've
been talking about stuff, is, ifyou can check off all the boxes
on a application, like, if youcan be like, I've done all of
the things I meet all thequalifications, you're
overqualified.
Jenique Jones (17:50):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah. I mean, when I took therole at why hunger where I am
now, there were a number ofthings I was like, I don't I've
never done this or I, but itthat was also the excitement of
it, right? Because I knew thatit was going to give me space to
grow and to learn, and it wasgoing to move me to whatever my
next is. But if I took a role,that was exactly what I'm really
(18:13):
good at, and I know how to do,I'm not getting ready for that
next thing. I think part of selfadvocacy is also doing things
that scare you a little bit.
Valerie Friedlander (18:24):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (18:25):
You know, I think that's a big part of it, too.
Valerie Friedlander (18:28):
Yeah. Well, and the the little small steps,
the little micro actions as myfriend, Taina Brown would say,
little micro actions startteaching your brain a new thing,
like, Oh no, I can do this. And,oh, I can advocate by doing
those little steps. Andsometimes you'll get like, I
said no. And if somebody's soused to hearing you say yes,
(18:50):
their conditioning is they'reused to you saying yes, so they
just kind of keep going, andyou're like, No, no, I said, I
said no. But oftentimes we'llprocess that is, oh, they didn't
hear me. Maybe I shouldn't havesaid no instead of like, no, I
got clear, like you were sayingbefore. Of like, I took that
time to really get clear withmyself. This is what I want.
(19:11):
This is what it needs to be, no,and it feels uncomfortable, and
there's a tension, and you knowthat vibration to be like No,
you mentioned starting to askthose questions. What does it
mean to be essential? Do yourecall what some of those
initial conversations were like?
How did you engage that? Did yougo into the office and say, Hey,
(19:35):
I'm curious. You said this word.
What does that mean? Like, or,you know, did it? What are
those, like, the micro things,the little the steps that you
took to start kind of feelingout as this opening here?
what's
Jenique Jones (19:48):
You know, what's really interesting is I remember
the exact day this happened. Iremember where I was. It was
because, you know, you havecheck ins with your supervisor.
So we would have, like, everytwo weeks we would have a check
in, and this was a check in. AndI remember, she was like, I'm
always in my office. Let's go doit in one of the little huddle
rooms. So we're in this littlelike library nook at the office,
and, you know, and we'retalking, and she kind of, and I
(20:10):
think that there was an elementof, like, knowing that it was
time, but not wanting to say it.
So it's like, yeah, you know, wewe really value you and this and
that. And I was just like, sowhat does that mean? I think,
you know. And what happened was,there was fluster, because
normally say that, it's like,Oh, that's great. You value me
and yay. But when I was like,what does that mean? Well, it,
(20:32):
you know, there's somestuttering, and it's like, well,
it means, you know, and this iswhere the word essential, then,
you know, you're really one ofour essential staff members.
And, you know, we feel like, youknow we, we're in a space right
now where we would never want tolose you. And I'm like, okay, so
how do you plan? Like, what doesit look like to acknowledge
someone being essential outsideof just saying it?
Valerie Friedlander (20:57):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (20:58):
We, I remember we ended the conversation with I'll
get back to you. So, um, and Ithink that was because it was,
it was not something that I hadever done, and I'm not even sure
how many others had done it. ButI especially when you're a
nonprofit, I don't know,nonprofits tend to be
predominantly women, and so Ithink that there's a lot of us
are just like, I'm essential,yay. This is great.
Valerie Friedlander (21:21):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (21:21):
And again, it didn't happen overnight. They
started out by saying, we'regoing to give you a larger
bonus, so we're going to giveyou the bonus that the people
above you get to start and I'mlike, I'm not going to turn down
more money. Thank you very much.
But this is also once a year.
I'm essential every day. So,let's continue talking. And I
(21:45):
think it was just, it was reallythat also saying to myself not
to just accept because that waseasy. That would have been very
easy for me to just be like, whoI got this bigger bonus, this is
exciting. Gotta pay off thesecredit cards. And this is gonna
happen every year, because Iwill say that this is not a a
one time thing. It is somethingI'm you still do right, even
(22:07):
now, having this understanding,I'll have times where I'm like,
This isn't right. I should saysomething, and then you, you
kind of almost negotiate yourwith yourself in your head,
okay, well, should I ask forthis much? Was that too much?
Maybe, you know, and you'rehaving all of those moments.
It's not a oh, I'm at this placeof enlightenment, and it's all
(22:30):
perfect. It's still a constantconversation. Or in my head, I
have conversations with myselfall the time.
Valerie Friedlander (22:36):
Yeah, yeah.
I heard that there are somepeople who don't have like, the
voice in their head. I'm not oneof them, but that's wild to me.
I'm like, wow, I don't know whatthat would be like at all. I
have a committee. I mean, it'slike, inside out in there.
Jenique Jones (22:51):
Absolutely.
Valerie Friedlander (22:52):
Yeah. And I think the nonprofit world, so
many people go into those spacesbecause they're passionate about
something they want to make adifference. And there's a whole
mythology around loving yourjob, yeah, if you love your job,
you'll never work a day in yourlife. It's just came up with a
clan, actually, and it's like,no, actually, you're still
working.
Jenique Jones (23:12):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (23:13):
Great if you love it. But like, that's
all so often a way that peopleplay on that in order to exploit
your labor. And so we still needto recognize that it's work,
even if you're passionate aboutit and you love it.
Jenique Jones (23:29):
Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (23:30):
I'm wondering, as I imagine, that
you're now in a position wherepeople are coming and having
those conversations with you asthe manager position where
people are coming to you. Whatwould you want people who are
stepping into self advocacy toknow about from the perspective
(23:54):
of the person that they're theymight be advocating to?
I
Jenique Jones (23:59):
I think it depends on the person, right?
Because not everybody is goingto welcome your self advocacy.
Valerie Friedlander (24:07):
Well, let's put it as like a from the
perspective of a leader whoactually is encouraging, like
you're on a podcast advocatingfor self advocacy, like as
somebody who appreciates that,like I and I got a piece of
that, which is make sure you'vedone your work ahead of time,
like, make sure you're gettinghonest. And honesty can look
(24:27):
like acknowledging what you'veaccomplished and what you've
done, as well as the placeswhere you need to grow. But it
could also be asking for thatfeedback. Of like, Hey, maybe I
don't have a full perspective onwhat I need to be able to hit
the next level, but I know thatthat should be available to me.
What does that look like? Butwhen you haven't been in that
kind of position where you'rethe person receiving the
(24:49):
conversation, like somebody issaying, hey, I want this,
there's a lot of thoughts about,like, what is this other person
thinking? And to be able todiscern the difference between
somebody who is not receptive,who, you know this space might
be a no in because they're goingto shut it down, versus somebody
who's like, I want you to step Ilike, we need this like,
(25:11):
collectively, as you said, weneed more women, in particular
because of these disparities,like to speak up and advocate
for themselves and putthemselves into positions where,
you know, might be a littleuncomfortable, because our
society's conditioned us not tobe there, but we need to do
that. So as someone who'sreceptive to that, what would
you want people to know who aretrying to do this?
Jenique Jones (25:37):
I think people tell you a lot about who they
are. I think if you're payingattention, people tell you a lot
about who they are, and so, forinstance, with people who work
with me, first thing I did whenI started at my organization
was, I mean, we're small enoughto where I was able to do this,
but I met with every last personon the team. I did not just meet
(25:58):
with my direct reports. I metwith everyone, and I asked
questions, and I sought tounderstand where they wanted to
go, how they saw themselvesfitting into the organization. I
asked questions like, you know,I know you people hate this, but
where do you see yourself infive years? And do not feel like
you have to say you see yourselfhere, because if you see
(26:21):
yourself elsewhere, my job is,how do I prepare you for where
you're going to go? Becausewithout, while I'm doing that,
I'm also getting the best out ofyou with that, that preparation.
And so I think if you havesomeone who is coming to you in
that space, you're pretty muchin a good you're in a good
space, right? You shouldn'tworry about advocating for
(26:42):
yourself, although there arestill people on staff who are
not comfortable with it becauseit's so foreign. But if you see,
if you're in an environmentwhere someone shuts down
conversation, doesn't likefeedback or discourse, that's
probably not someone who's goingto be open to your self
advocacy, because in their mind,they already know what they want
(27:04):
to do. So I think a lot of itis, is you can tell a lot when
you just sit back and kind oflisten see how people treat you,
how do they engage you, how dothey bring you in, and what does
that look like?
Valerie Friedlander (27:17):
That speaks very much to me about like what
I believe leadership to be andin the framework of out of the
individualistic thinking, right?
Like when you're a real leader,you are thinking collectively.
You're thinking about the teamthat you're leading. You are a
unit. You are working together,even if you have different ideas
and different opinions ordifferent perspectives that
(27:39):
that's valuable, because yourecognize that there's a way to
integrate to achieve an overallobjective, that there's a reason
you all are working together.
And then there's the spaceswhere it's like, No, it's my
ideas, it's the way I'm doingthings. And you all just need to
get on board and do what I say,the more authoritarian kind of
(28:02):
viewpoint versus the collectiveviewpoint, and so that that
lends itself into that idea oflike, what does it look like to
generate collective advocacy?
Jenique Jones (28:13):
Yeah.
And when you have a leader whois thinking about the people and
how do we how do we movetogether for this time that we
are together? And your work? Ithink a lot, you know, a lot of
nonprofits are thinkingcollective advocacy, but if
you're not acting that wayinternally, Yeah.
Valerie Friedlander (28:33):
It's really hard to effectively act that way
externally to the organization,
Jenique Jones (28:39):
Yeah. And I think so this is one of the
challenges, though, right? Ithink that people need to
understand that collectivedoesn't mean we all agree.
Doesn't mean we all share thesame exact opinion, because I
think that that is often howpeople view that, right? Like if
you are working towards a goaland then you start to disagree
(29:01):
that just throws a lot of thingsin the chaos. Because people are
like, how can we work as a teamif we all are into I'm like, the
part of collective advocacy isalso, it's, it's discourse, but
it's, it's figuring out what theultimate goal is. You might have
your opinion about this. I mighthave my opinion about this, but
we do both share the sameopinion about this piece. So
we're going to work towards thatpart, because I do believe that.
(29:25):
I think every voice matters. Ithink that change rarely happens
because of one person. Right? Welike to think that, you know,
I'm a civil rights buff. MartinLuther King changed the world.
No. Martin Luther King was anamazing man who was a wonderful
spokesperson for a movement, butthere were hundreds of 1000s of
people who made that collectiveaction happen, and even within
(29:47):
that, people had different ideasabout how to move that movement
forward. Not everybody wanted tobe nonviolent, not everybody
wanted to boycott. Not everyonewant, you know, but there was
this ultimate goal, right?
Change rarely happens with oneperson, and so that's kind of
the way that we work. I alsothink that collective action,
especially within anorganization, you cannot work in
(30:11):
silos. You cannot have this teamover here, kind of doing their
thing and never interacting withthis team, or people not being
willing to compromise around howto get things done, right? So
one team might say, you know,I'm just going to say comms.
Might say, this is how I dothings. And if the program team
(30:33):
doesn't like it, well, tough.
But our programs are what drivesour work. So you guys kind of
have to figure you guys got tofigure out how to work together.
And if you've had things brokendown so much to where people
can't work together, there's noway to move forward. And again,
this doesn't we don't have to befriends. You don't all have to
(30:53):
agree on everything, but you dohave to figure out what's
important, what's the ultimategoal, and how do we make this
work?
Valerie Friedlander (31:03):
Yeah, and there's a lot of talking about
how important diverse voices,diverse ideas, diverse lived
experience, diverseperspectives, opinions, are in
solving the collective issues.
Because how can we solve anissue if we're not actually
looking and hearing from thepeople who are experiencing the
(31:26):
issue, all the people who areexperiencing the issue, yeah,
not just my opinion about thepeople experiencing the issue.
Jenique Jones (31:37):
No, I agree. And I think also it's, it's for for
our work because we're talkingabout ending hunger. Ending
hunger is not just saying,Here's food every day, right?
It's deeper than that. And sothe only way we can get our work
done is if we do work as acollective. So we work with
different movements, and we workwith organizations that are
(31:57):
focused on, you know, economicjustice, right? We work with
organizations that are focusedon racial justice. We're working
with folks who are, you know,focused on issues around
sexuality and Patriarch,patriarchy, and because those
are the things that actuallylead to poverty and people being
hungry and not having access tosystems and all these things,
(32:18):
right? We're not able to be theexperts on all things, and so a
big part of how we work is tobring those collectives
together. And again, even withinthat, there are opinions with
our partners and with others wework with. And it's like, well,
that side of your house, we'regonna stay away from that. But
this part, this part works, andthis is the part we're working
together. There's just no waythat we can challenge the
(32:42):
underlying systems that createinequality alone.
Valerie Friedlander (32:46):
Yeah.
Jenique Jones (32:47):
And so that's where that collective action is
just vital.
Valerie Friedlander (32:50):
Yeah. And we have to be able to step out
of our own way, in our ownheads, in order to be able to
step into that space. It's oneof the things I see so often, is
when we have that bully in ourheads, and we haven't recognized
that it's not actually us, it'snot necessarily based on a
truth. Or we haven't learned todiscern the difference between
(33:11):
the lies we've internalized andwhat we actually might need to
do, work around or grow around,to be able to see that clearly
there's a fragility that comesfrom that where we can't receive
new information, so it has to beme and mine instead of us and
ours, because I can't receivethat different idea or and I
(33:31):
can't say, You know what? That'syours and this is mine, because
I haven't figured out thatwithin myself
Jenique Jones (33:38):
Exactly. Yep, no.
And I'm also thinking aboutsomething you said earlier, when
you were like, what the selfadvocacy to the collective
advocacy? I think you know thatshift begins when you realize
that your story is a part of alarger narrative.
Valerie Friedlander (33:51):
Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones (33:52):
Right. And I think about this like, I'm going
to take it from my own personalstory, me advocating for myself
set the stage for others on myteam. So by me advocating for
myself, I've given other peoplepermission to do the same. Like
(34:13):
there was a young man on my teamwho started as like a
coordinator, and now he's likedirector of policy work and
doing and he's like acoordinator in, like
transportation. It wasn't evenlike he was a coordinator in
policy, but it gave him thecourage, or not even courage,
but the permission to do thesame, you know? And so I think
(34:34):
when we think about our story,we're all connected. Everything
is connected. It's why they alsosay things like representation
matters and all of these thingsbecause we are a part of a
larger a larger piece. So that'swhy, where that's self advocacy
goes towards the collective aswell.
Valerie Friedlander (34:52):
Yeah, oh, that's that's so powerful and so
important. We talk about rolemodels, you know? That's we. We
all have that ability as we stepinto that ownership of our
space, and to say, you know,this is I do belong here, and I
am going to advocate, and then Ican be in a role where I can
(35:15):
show up for other people and bean example of what it looks like
to think this way and engagethis way. So one of the things
that I know that you've broughtup before that I think ties what
we've been talking abouttogether to one of my wrap up
questions, which is the power ofmusic and food to bring people
(35:37):
together. Tell me more aboutwhat that means for you.
Jenique Jones (35:40):
I mean, just, just think about it. There's a
lot of things that can bringpeople together and so on and so
forth. But even if you thinkabout your family and having a
family meal, right? And youthink about those hot you think
about holidays and such or andwhen I say family, I'm mindful
that that could be friends.
Friendsgiving is a lot of fun,but there's something about
(36:02):
breaking bread that shifts andchanges and creates a common
like a just a joy. And you canfind that joy with people over
food in a really significantway. It's a mutually exciting or
important experience that you'rehaving together. I think music
does the same thing, you know?
(36:26):
Because the only real role Ithink people sometimes have is
you tend to like what you growup with, right? But we also, we
live in such a large worldwhere, for me and I'm old, so it
wasn't Tiktok, but it was like,music videos.
Valerie Friedlander (36:45):
Oh, yeah.
Jenique Jones (36:46):
And I remember going home and watching MTV and
discovering a world that I hadnot grown up with, right? I grew
up with R and B and jazz and allthese things, and now I'm like,
listening to this big hair band,I'm listening to Motley Crue,
and I'm listening to all ofthese things, and then I go to
(37:08):
school, and I go to for mymiddle school, it was a very
diverse school, and the factthat I listened to Motley Crue
and Guns N Roses and all thesefolks made it easier for me to
connect with my peers, and thefact that they were listening
to, actually, it was like a verywealthy, preppy white child who
(37:29):
introduced me to, like, hardcorerap. So, like, I had never, I
didn't listen to NWA, I didn'tlisten to that stuff, and it's
and he was like, He's shorterthan me. It was so funny, little
blonde guy. And he's like, Oh,you got to listen to this. But
think about that, like he'sfrom, like, the Upper West Side
of, you know, Manhattan, veryyou know, has a bunch of money.
I'm from, like, Harlem middleclass, and we bonded over music.
(37:53):
And so I just, I think food andmusic do that in a really
significant way. And I like totell people, like, when I was in
applying for the role at whyhunger, one of the questions
that as a member of the staffasked me was, as a black woman,
how did you get to this level?
And I said, Honestly, I thinkit's because I have the ability
to talk to white women aboutSarah McLachlan, and then it's
(38:16):
they were very uncomfortablewith that answer. The older,
white woman who was therecruiter was cracking up, but I
was like, it creates thatconnection. So often we have
these barriers because we thinkwe know who people are, and then
there's these little momentswhere you're like, Oh, you're
(38:37):
actually like me. You too, loveFumbling Towards Ecstasy and get
very emotional when you'relistening to, you know the song
like and suddenly that barriersdown. So I think that that's,
that's how I think of music, andI also think of music as a tool
for social activism. I thinkthat, you know, Harry Chapin was
(39:00):
onto something when he createdwhy hunger? I think he
understood that his voice hadmore weight than than maybe
others who were in thisstruggle. And so he was like,
I'm going to use my voice toamplify other voices. I think
that, you know, even if youthink about folks who said that,
who did we are the world? Theysaid they were inspired by Harry
(39:23):
Chapin. And folks had known thatthere was this poverty and this
this famine happening, you know,in Africa for so long, but no
one was doing anything about it.
But yet, one song like shifted,and suddenly everyone is aware
of this atrocity that'shappening. I think that is, that
(39:46):
is the power of music, and Ithink we don't use it as much as
we probably should anymore, butjust if Beyonce can get
everybody wearing silver to aconcert. So to speak, and people
of all stripes and colors.
Imagine what else she could do.
(40:06):
Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift isgetting people to register to
vote. There's a real power inmusic that we have to really
harness and use. That's what whyhunger tries to do. We really
want to tap in to continuingthat Harry Chapin legacy of
using music to amplify.
Valerie Friedlander (40:23):
I love that as as a musician, that's that is
really important, I mean, and Ihear in that also, just like
leaning into your gifts, andwhere do you, where do you have
the power to amplify? And itdoesn't, you know, we can think
outside of the standard boxes ofwhat that supposed to look like,
or, or, you know, think thatwe're limited by, oh, well, I
(40:46):
don't do this. Well, what do youdo? What? What is accessible to
you? And I will say with themusic thing. I mean, one of the
places I've gotten a lot ofrecent bonding with my kids,
surprisingly, was that bye, byebye. And think is now back in
style thanks to the DeadpoolWolverine movie, and so, like,
my kids are singing that, andI'm just like, this is very
(41:09):
weird. This is like high school.
What are you? What's happeningright now? What is that? So I
mean, but it's like, it'sbonding. It absolutely when we
can connect to each other. Andmusic has a very embodied
experience. You know, we'rehitting things on multiple
levels where we can resonatetogether. And I say I use
(41:32):
resonate intentionally, becausethat's what music does. There's
a vibration to music that wefeel. So I love that, and so I'm
actually, I'm going to ask youin reverse order what I usually
ask, because I again, it feelsvery appropriate. So I have a
playlist that I put togetherfrom all of my guests telling me
(41:55):
the song, or at least one of thesongs that they like to listen
to when they want to tap into anunlimited feeling. So what might
be one of those songs for you?
Jenique Jones (42:11):
For me, if I want to feel like I can like
unlimited feeling, or I can doanything, it has to be either
very up tempo or really likesoul stirring. And also, I think
there's something about feelingjoyful that creates that
feeling, and even though there'sa lot of controversy around her
right now, but there's a songcalled All Right by Janet
(42:33):
Jackson from Rhythm Nation. Andyou just, you just, I listen to
that song, and I'm just happy,and I feel like and I think that
happiness fuels you in a way.
And I think back to the musicvideo and all of that and the
bright colors, and so I'd say,All Right, by Janet Jackson.
Valerie Friedlander (42:51):
And I feel like you've started to answer
this question... The other oneis, what does it mean to you to
be unlimited?
Jenique Jones (42:59):
I'm not going to say it means to be without fear.
I think it, for me, it meansthat doing, despite the fear,
you know, stepping into spacesand you know being a little
uncomfortable, and beingcomfortable with being
uncomfortable, to me that thatis when you're without limits is
(43:21):
when you can do that. Because Ithink fear and uncomfort so
often limit us. But when you cando that, I think the sky's the
limit.
Valerie Friedlander (43:31):
Yeah, I like to say, treat them like
caution signs, but not stopsigns
Jenique Jones (43:35):
Exactly.
Valerie Friedlander (43:36):
Yeah, I love that. So if people would
like to connect further, get toknow why hunger. Where should
they find you and theorganization?
Jenique Jones (43:48):
Yeah, they should find us@whyhunger.org, we're
right there well, and then we'reon all social platforms. Is why
hunger? With the exception ofTiktok, where we're why hunger
talk, someone randomly uses itand we can't get it back. Other
than that, that's where we are.
Valerie Friedlander (44:06):
Awesome. I will have links in the show
notes for everybody, and thankyou so much for coming on. I
have really enjoyed thisconversation.
Jenique Jones (44:14):
This was fun.
Thanks.
Valerie Friedlander (44:16):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode. Please
share it, leave me a review,take a screenshot and post it on
social with a shout out to me,send it to a friend or, you
know, all of the above. Want tohang out more, join me on
Instagram, or, better yet, geton my mailing list to make sure
you don't miss out on anything,and remember your possibilities
(44:40):
are as unlimited as you are.
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
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