November 20, 2024 • 45 mins
Responsive practices to create a supportive relationship with your teen starts with acknowledging your own inner child’s unhealed wounds so that you can create space in yourself to hold space for another. These wounds often become activated when we see them mirrored in our children’s behavior. Unfortunately, the tools we were taught to address these behaviors often perpetuate the very patterns we hope to break. Whether you have teenagers now, are preparing for those years, or are working to shift your own patterns, understanding these dynamics and embracing new practices can help you show up more fully for your kids—and can also be deeply validating for your own healing journey.
In this episode of Unlimited, I invited Donna Lynne Booher (she/her), to join me in a conversation about engaging Responsive Practices to Create a Supportive Relationship with Your Teen
Some of what we talk about in this episode includes:
- Understanding how to give emotional validation
- Breaking free from perfectionism
- Developing trust and improving communication
- Holding space for your kid’s evolving identity
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Friedlander (00:00):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to another
(00:01):
episode of unlimited today weare talking about responsive
practices to support yourstressed teen, and that starts
with understanding not justtheir emotional needs, but your
own inner child's unhealedpatterns. I know you're shocked,
but this is where we getactivated, and this is where we
(00:24):
are unable to hold space forothers, particularly our kids,
is when something within us,particularly those things that
haven't been healed, areactivated. And so whether you
have teenagers now, you know youwill, or maybe you just love
this podcast, and you'relistening anyway, and you don't
have kids, this is for you,because it does relate to those
(00:48):
practices that we can employ tobe able to show up better, and
sometimes just hearing some ofthe dynamics can be extremely
validating for that healingprocess. To be able to go, oh,
that's what I was missing,because trauma lowercase t
trauma isn't just things thathappen to us, it's things that
(01:09):
don't happen that should have.
And we live in a society full ofthings that don't happen that
should have. I did a training ontrauma a while ago with Angela
Johnson, and she talked abouthow our brain is naturally wired
for connection, but traumarewires it for protection, and
so when we don't engage that, weend up perpetuating those
(01:31):
patterns as a norm. So RichardRohr said pain that isn't
transformed is transmitted, andI'm seeing that a lot, honestly,
that is a big, big invitationright now in our world is to
look at the pain. And sometimeswhen we won't look at the pain,
the pain gets bigger and biggeruntil you just can't not. So
(01:52):
that is something that I reallybelieve we're being invited to
look at, and I am heartbroken athow painful I think that may
get. And I also still very, verymuch believe that we have to
start by looking internally atwhere that resides within us,
(02:12):
before that we can show up andhelp with healing and making and
imagining and then making a newworld, a new way of being with
one another. I am offering awinter women's circle to do just
that, that inner reflectionthat's coming up in December. I
(02:35):
know it's not a lot of time tothink about it, but if you are
interested in that space, to gointo a restful, honoring winter
space, to do that reflection, totake a look at our inner critic,
to take a look at that shadowside, and uplift our light and
(02:55):
reclaim Our power within all ofthose things. And I invite you
to check out that group. I'monly enrolling 10 people, so
it's going to be a small,intimate group. The link is
going to be in the show notes,so take a look there. As for
this episode, I have invitedDonna Lynn Burr, who is the
(03:18):
creator of student stresssolutions, to have this
conversation about responsivepractices, because that's what
she does. She is a studentsupport specialist who helps
students to integrate academicskills, stress management tools
and cognitive coaching. Shehelps educators and families to
explore responsive practicesthat build trust, a sense of
(03:42):
belonging and authenticconnection. She has worked as an
academic support counselor withneurodivergent students in a
college preparatory setting,designed and taught teen health
and wellness SEL curriculums,and been an adjunct and Student
Wellness counselor and ProgramCoordinator at prestigious pre
professional art schools. Hergirls education program was
(04:04):
recognized by the US Departmentof Health and Human Services
Office of Women's Health. She isa fierce student advocate, and
likes to raise awareness aroundableism and exploring
assumptions that we bring intoclassrooms and communities. She
is passionate about regardingstudents with positive regard,
valuing their experience andtheir perspective. She has
(04:25):
extensive training and educationin social and emotional
learning, adolescentdevelopment, instructional
coaching, mindfulness inschools, and is a holistic
stress management instructorthrough the National Wellness
Institute. Some of the thingsthat we talk about in this
episode are understanding how togive emotional validation,
breaking free fromperfectionism, developing trust
(04:45):
and improving communication andholding space for your kids,
evolving identity. I know you'regonna love this conversation. So
now without further ado, let'sget started.
Hey, there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment Coach. Andthis is unlimited. This podcast
(05:06):
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard. And let's unlock a life
that's as bad ass as you are.
(05:28):
Welcome, Donna, I'm so excitedto have you on unlimited
Donna Lynne Booher (05:33):
Thank you.
I'm very excited to be here andget to talk with you.
Valerie Friedlander (05:37):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So starting
off, I'd like to ask, what is alimit that you took for granted
that you have since unlearned?
Donna Lynne Booher (05:50):
Oh, that is such a great question. I think a
limit that I have unlearned isbelieving that I need to follow
what my thoughts are telling me,instead of being just kind of
led by that. And I've learnedthat through teaching as well,
is just I don't have to believeit, I don't have to question it,
(06:15):
and I don't have to follow thefeelings like I actually have
some agency. And looking backand being like, Wait, what are
you saying and making somechoices by kind of raising my
own self awareness, that's beena been a life changer.
Valerie Friedlander (06:30):
Yeah, definitely. I'm really excited
to dig in to that further,because one of the things as we
were talking just before westarted recording, is that your
clients are really the kids ofmy clients. Yeah, that's who you
know. The people that I'mworking with are people who want
(06:52):
to make a difference in theworld. They want to make change,
and they're probably unpackingsome of the things that they
learned as kids, and thenthey're starting to see it
mirrored in their kids. And oneof the things that stood out
that we've talked a little bitabout is high achievers, and how
often you're working with highachieving kids, and I tend to
(07:14):
work with high achieving adults,and the overwhelm that comes in.
So I'd love to start there,because a lot of this, I think
we're going to be looking atthese, you know, generational
patterns that we may or may notbe aware of, or at different
points aware of. So what do youtend to see with the young
people who are high achievers?
Donna Lynne Booher (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, what I see is
stress, like, there's a lot ofstress that's happening, and
there's also, you know, you cansee that that the kids also are
trying to manage their adults,because oftentimes they do have
parents that are also kind ofhigh achieving and had These
(07:59):
expectations. So the student islike the kids often balancing
those expectations against whattheir adult thinks of them, or
what they think their adultthinks of them. And I think that
can be kind of running behindthe scenes in their head, and it
causes a lot of internalpressure. The other piece I see
(08:21):
with almost every one of thestudents that I work with is
what they do with theiremotions. They're actually kind
of like try to avoid them at allcosts. Because right our human
brain isn't like I would like tofeel pain. It's more caged with
our negativity bias and thingslike that. To watch for things
(08:41):
so that we can avoid suffering.
And so I will see kids do thatquite frequently, and it really
creates a buildup of thatoverwhelm and anxiety, because
how they're feeling feelsoverwhelming, and the feeling
that they're having, they don'tknow what to do with it, or many
of them think they shouldn'thave it. So we'll see that kind
(09:02):
of like, how do you have anemotional life and also be
appearing to be very successfulat the same time, because of
some of the things that aresocialized of what it is to be
like. You need to look like youhave everything together, and
you're doing it all, and youknow everything, and you've got
(09:24):
this going on, and the way welook at crying, or all these
types of things, so they'rereally managing an internal life
within that external containerthat's going on In their
families, and then when you getto school, you just add on to
it. So there it's a lot, it'sreally, really a lot. And so I
(09:47):
really feel for many of them,and that's a lot of what, what
we end up working on. And in theend, they end up being more
productive once they have moreconfidence and more resources of
being able to manage whatevercomes up. So it's not that I
don't want to go into thesituation, because I think I
can't handle it like this a bigpiece, and so helping them to
(10:11):
feel more like, okay, whateverdoes happen, I can handle that.
And as adults, you know, samething. We're not immune from
that either, but I definitelysee that as a pattern students I
work with.
Valerie Friedlander (10:27):
Oh my gosh.
You know it's funny because thatwell, it's not, I say it's
funny, it's not really funny.
Haha funny, not haha funny,because that's very much what I
see with a lot of adults that Iwork with as well, is that and
and in some ways, there's thispressure that parents will put
(10:47):
on themselves, and I know thatI've I've felt this too, of how
I show up, not just in my worksetting, but also with my kids.
I don't want to pass on thethings that I experienced. I
want to do it differently. Iwant to do it better. I want to
show up the best. And in someways, the pressure that we put
on ourselves to do that adds tothat space of stress of the
(11:14):
appearances versus how we reallyfeel and the what you said, the
I shouldn't feel overwhelmed allthe shoulds. And I recently was
talking to somebody about theshoulds cover shame when we
should on ourselves. It's it'sthis shaming that we've learned
so we should that we shouldn'tbe so stressed, we shouldn't be
(11:37):
so overwhelmed, and then we'rebeating ourselves and we
shouldn't be beating ourselvesup, and then we're beating
ourselves up for beatingourselves up, and that it's
almost like a building upinside, like a volcano, like
pressure. And then when we getactivated, we'll explode on
(12:01):
those around us, whether it'strying to control, and it's not
always like a yelling explosion,but it's usually control. I feel
out of control because I wasn'table to control what's happening
inside of me, and so now I'mgoing to try and exert control
outside of myself, where Iactually don't have control, but
I have the appearance ofcontrol, sometimes, especially
(12:23):
with my kids, and then we'reinto a cycle that we hate, that
we then beat ourselves up foragain. So what do you do?
Because I know we were talkingbeforehand about seeing this
pattern, and you know you dowork with both the kids and
helping the parents so the kidscan be successful. What are some
(12:44):
tools that you find are helpfulwith the kids navigating this
dynamic with their parents?
Donna Lynne Booher (12:55):
I you know your piece about talking about
like, I don't want to bevulnerable becoming this goal
that we sometimes have so thatother people can't hurt us or
see that we're struggling. Ijust wanted to kind of mention
that as well, like in whatyou're talking about about when
we're shoulding all over things,it's that when you catch
(13:19):
yourself doing that, and that'ssome of the work that I like to
do with kids. As you startcatching the things, or catching
the feeling in your body likethat tells you something else is
going on and that you're tryingto be something, maybe that
you're not or behave in a waybecause you're trying to protect
yourself. And of course, you arelike being vulnerable is is
(13:42):
scary. And as an adolescent,when you know so much is about,
what does this mean? About me?
It's a really, it's a big periodof where you reflect back to
them over and over, in part,that's part of their
development. So when our adultsdon't do that, well, that can be
problematic, because I'll havestudents who will tell me, Well,
(14:04):
my parents are perfect. And yougo like, Wow, do you know? And
to like, try to delve into thatand that. That some of why they
will limit themselves so theylimit their own expression to
what will be acceptable withintheir family. And that's really,
I think, part of where thatperfectionism can come in as
(14:27):
well, and that by what I do andwhat I achieve, how I'm going to
get accepted. And it'sunfortunate in a way, because
we've all been raised with thatbelief, like, like, those of us
who are working on that, that'snot how we want to show up. We
actually want to be like, Oh, Itotally blew this with my kid,
like it was bad. And for the youknow, your child to know, we're
(14:52):
also committed in our family todoing the repair, and we're not
going to do this right lots oftimes, but we are going to turn
in towards each other instead ofturning away. And that is hard,
because we as adults also haveto have that commitment to like,
Okay, I gotta work on mycommunication, and that I'm not
(15:13):
going to be perfect, and allthose fears that we have of
like, maybe I'm not capable ofdoing this, or I'm going to mess
up my kid. You also miss out onreally seeing your kid. And so I
think I'll work with people whoare like, I know my kid better
than anyone Absolutely. And howwell do you know your kid? Like,
(15:36):
really? Because the kids thatyou know that kind of duality of
like who I am with my parents orwhat I let my parent know, when
we start seeing that kids can'tstart omitting information that
they don't think their parentswould be okay with. You know,
those things happen, and some ofthat becomes part of the
(15:58):
development. But that collectivepiece about what do we expect
with our kids and how will wesupport them, comes from the
adults in their environment,like that is part of their
creation story. Is how, how dowe do this with kids, and what
do we all agree on that we'regoing to help them with? So just
that piece of like, how we wereraised. You mentioned that too?
(16:24):
Like, that pattern of like,Well, my dad said sticks and
stones will break your bones,but words will never hurt you,
not actually helpful, a niceidea. But then there's the
reality of their experience. Andwe don't, you know, we're
learning so much more about howimportant it is to validate that
and that it's okay to have thefeeling, and then what you do
(16:46):
with it is what we want to talkabout. And if they don't have
outlets, and they don'tunderstand, like, Yeah, that's
really normal. Like, you canhave really big, big feeling
about it, and then be able toget yourself back, because, you
know, it's okay, you don't getlost in, like, the spiral that
just will take kids out of,like, I can't do this. I can't
(17:09):
I'm stupid. This is too I can'tdo it. Like, the whole like, we
can do hard things, and it doestake resources for us to be able
to do those sometimes, andthat's okay.
Valerie Friedlander (17:23):
Yeah, one of the things that you said in a
previous conversation that wehad really stood out to me right
there, is you said, don't assumekids know how to communicate.
And I wrote that down because itreally I so often, especially
when we're dealing with kids whoare really they pick things up
(17:46):
really quickly. I hesitate touse the word smart, because I
know that that gets caught upand like that fixed mindset and
like, you know, the definitionsof people, but who pick things
up quickly, who articulateeasily, who kind of match you in
a certain level, it's reallyeasy to forget that they're
still functioning with Kidbrains that aren't fully
(18:07):
developed yet, and all thethings that we might be learning
about healthy conflict, youknow, productive conflict,
emotional intelligence, and allthat we're learning those
things, You know, for thosefolks who are listening, who
most, most of whom are areinterested in personal
development, are learning thosethings. And I always said I
(18:30):
watched my parents do a lot ofself work, and I got this tool
box of full of tools, but I onlylearned how to use a hammer
because I only had that earlyconditioning of of everything
being a hammer and nail. Andwhile I watched them get better,
I could see it, but I couldn'ttake it in, and I didn't know
(18:51):
how to articulate. I had, like,lots of great sayings. My mom
had lots of great sayings that Ithought were awesome. Again,
when you said, like, thought outmy your parents were perfect.
That was me. I really thought,like they have stuff, but
they're, they're they'reamazing, they're doing all these
things, and then I had to dothat unpacking. But like to have
a healthy conflict, to actuallyengage, like I still consider
(19:15):
myself, even though I've done alot of work, to be relatively
conflict averse, working on itgetting better and healthy
conflict still feels likeconflict, and my ability to
articulate still gets caught inthe emotional net, and I have a
fully functioning frontalcortex, you know, fully
(19:37):
developed frontal cortex, Ishould say. So how do you engage
that knowing, okay, their theirfrontal cortex is fully
developed, and they've got allof these patterns that maybe
I've started unlearning, but Igave in the first place. Where
does one go with that?
Donna Lynne Booher (19:59):
That is such a great question. Because yeah,
we make so we, I think asadults, we make a lot of
assumptions, because we just getused to them talking to us, and
so we assume that they also haveskills to do that, but
communicating is a very complexskill that can often feel very
complicated for them, and soteaching them how to do that, I
(20:25):
think, is a lot with listening,and I think that we really miss
out a lot of time on justactually listening for what
they're saying and what they'reexperiencing, and that that we
want to make them feel better soquickly, that even like in a
(20:47):
school system or we tried totake those decisions away from
them, which means they don't getto practice having a voice or
saying this doesn't feel okay,and as allowing them to say this
doesn't feel okay withoutconsequence. Like learning those
things is something I thinkthat's really that we end up
missing, like in a schoolsetting, for me and when I meet
(21:10):
with students, sometimes I do alot of what I would do in my
classes, which is, we talk aboutcommunication. We talk about
social power, like having themline each other up in order of
social power. If you want to seea classroom, I mean, it takes
being very skilled atfacilitating, because you have
(21:32):
to maintain their safety, likethat, psychological safety and
the safety outside theclassroom. But before that, we
work so much on communicationskills, because everyone's
family has a different set ofskills and rules, and so we
don't talk to kids about thatstuff. They'll say, like, what
is it, what does it look like inyour family? Can you are you
able to articulate that tosomeone else? What's it feel
(21:56):
like? What's it, you know? Like,how do you have those
conversations? So I think havingconversations with kids is a
skill that a lot of times wejust, when we're raising them,
we're like, oh, they just,they've always been here. We
always talk like this, but totake a step back, and like you
had mentioned that, don't assumethat they know how to
(22:18):
communicate, becausecommunication is really, really
a skill, like, did you reallyhear what they said and then did
you make a decision about it, ordid you validate it? And so that
question, I know a lot of, a lotof kids will express that their
parents always want them to justsolve the problem on the spot,
(22:42):
and that, of course, we're like,Okay, can we? Can we move
through this so that we can geton to the thing that I actually
need you to do for me? And whenyou know that, you can catch
yourself on that and be like,wait a minute, the kid right in
front of me is the pause, andit's a really beautiful gift to
(23:04):
have because it also helps themin understanding, oh, you're
modeling for them, how you cancommunicate, and you're, you're
modeling for them all the time.
And so that's some of the Ithink there's tools within the
family systems and also withinschools, because that dynamic is
always happening in schools, andI've just been fortunate enough
(23:26):
that I've been able to to doreally in depth education, in
particular, starting in middleschool with those age groups, so
that they can communicate andhave friendship, because it has
so much to do with thatformative stuff is really
important. And as they progress,how healthy they basically stay
(23:48):
in behaviors, mental health,physical activities, all those
types of things, and being ableto be a good friend and have a
friend mean kids. Kids arelonely too, and they play the
same game that we do, of showingup and being like, No, I'm good.
I'm good. And being able toattune with them is something
that takes practice andintention.
Valerie Friedlander (24:14):
Yeah, I'm noticing, as you're saying, that
one of the things that's comingup for me is it's it's an
ability to manage our ownemotions and our own pain, with
our child hurting, especially ifwe feel a certain amount of
responsibility or that rightlike this is one of the things
(24:36):
that I'm I'm noticing, is like,who's being centered in that
conversation? Is it us and ourfeelings, or is it our kid and
their feelings and what theirneeds are? And that was like,
that was the first thing thatjumped out to me, and like I was
(24:56):
feeling it. I was real. That wasa visceral experience. As you
were talking about that, I feltit like, oh yeah, because there
are times where I have to reallysit with my own stuff, and it's
hard to put that to the side andsay, No, this is this is about
you. The other thing that wasstanding out to me is when you
said assumptions, and talkingabout the assumptions that we
(25:17):
make. This is something that Inoticed comes up a lot in
relationships that are long termrelationships, is when you've
been with somebody for a longtime, you're so used to certain
patterns that it makes it hardto allow that person to change
and grow, because we makeassumptions about it. And
they're they're little, they'relittle things. But like one of
(25:38):
the things that I'll use in asan example is if my husband and
I are having tension, and wealways argue because he's coming
home late, and so we argue whenhe comes in the door, then my
body will respond, be ready forthe fight, like when I hear him
on the stairs right like, and wedon't even think about all the
(25:58):
little things that go into thatpattern. And then, when you know
somebody their entire lifebecause they're your kid, the
little assumptions that we makethere become a huge facet in how
we understand ourselves and howwe understand them, and how they
understand themselves and withinthat relationship. And is it
(26:22):
safe? Is it safe to explorethat? Because there are
assumptions when they becomepart of us, like they're part of
our belief of who we are and whosomebody else is and who they
are in relation to us. Havingthat challenge can feel like a
threat. It can feel like anattack. And so how resilient are
(26:43):
you to show up to that? Butalso, and I imagine this shows
up in the classrooms too,because when you're dealing with
a lot of kids, especially fromdifferent cultural backgrounds,
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, and the ways that
people learn how to engage fortheir ability to function in the
(27:04):
environments in which they live,you're gonna have a lot of that
navigating of how things getarticulated like this. This is
unsafe, so I'm going to use thisas a way to make fun of people,
because I need to emphasize whatis normal to create a sense of
safety, but who's choosing whatis normalized, and then what
(27:28):
comes home, and then, if the kidknows that that's not part of
the way that we function, and wehaven't built an ability to have
a conversation about that andprocess the feelings that come
up with that, it's almost, Ialmost see, like a calcification
that happens in our relationshipand in their interpersonal
(27:53):
relationships, and how safe theyfeel because of how safe they
feel at home and with adults.
That was a lot. So I'm going tothrow the ball to your court,
because my brain is, like,buzzing.
Donna Lynne Booher (28:05):
I love all of this. So because it really
is, there's so much, andthere's, like, a really big
view, and then there's and itapplies across all these
different, you know, layers ofof how we exist and that lived
experience you're talking about,like, do you really know their
lived experience? And do youvalue it like we assume that we
(28:26):
do, and they get busy being whothey're supposed to be, because
we don't kind of help themsometimes to be who they
actually are, and it gets lost.
And so playing that like, I willask a parent or a guardian
questions. So do you know betterthan your kid? That piece of
when you start getting into, areyou getting into a power
(28:48):
struggle? And this is in aclassroom, or it's in in your
family system, in your culture,in your you know, like, what's
the power struggle for you? Andoftentimes just that question
of, Do you feel like you knowbetter than your kid? And
typically the answer is, well,yes, they're just a kid. And so
that piece, I think, is reallygood information, because
(29:13):
listening to kids and being likethat is what they think that is
what is so real for them, andwhether or not you feel it's
valid isn't what we're talkingabout. And so that thing you're
talking about is like, have youcentered yourself? Is what we
have to kind of just check onourselves if we're doing that.
(29:37):
So that is one of the questionsI like to ask. And you know,
I'll ask students, what wouldyour parents be surprised to
learn about you? Like, what doyou wish that you could say to
them? What do you wish that theyknew about you that they don't
and parents can ask themselvesand ask their kids these
(29:58):
questions. Right? But thosethings that need to be in place
before a kid who doesn't feelthat safety with their parents
that it would be okay to saythat won't, of course, and it's
not like, oh, because my parentsare so mean. It's really just
they are so, so, so, so tuned inlike, their feelers are out for,
(30:18):
like, Do you love and accept me?
That's what they're doing allthe time, and it can be so
tiring, and they're trying tosurvive. And they're also at a
time when they need to be ableto be all these different
things, you know, like we talkedabout about, like, you have this
huge box of clothes that youjust get to play dress up. Like,
(30:43):
how many outfits do you choose?
What do you try on? Well, like Iwould only do this. Okay, what
would your what would yourfamily say you're allowed to try
on? What does society say youwould try on? What your friends
say you would try on if you wereto flip into another friend
group, what would they tell youyou had to try on? So they're
really doing this identityformation, and that's kind of
the complexity of what's goingon. And it is, I like to think
(31:06):
of them that we know, like we'relearning so much about bias and
kind of the cultural things thathappen that these are all
cultures. Like we have culturesin our families, we have
cultures that we live in. Wehave cultures in school. We have
cultures within cultures inschool, and we're relying on
these thoughts, like when youtalk about that community
(31:27):
foundation and that collectivefoundation. We have to rely on
the adults in our community tohave, or be trying to have a
skill level in the society welive in, under the pressure of
everything they're doing intheir own day to day lives,
trying to be human. Like it canseem like just a ridiculous ask,
but these moments of sayinglike, Okay, I'm gonna really try
(31:52):
to see my kid as if I'm justmeeting them today. And I find
that it can be really powerfulto get yourself out of the way.
Like, I know I'm gonna say Iknow nothing about this kid.
Like, could you tell me moreabout that? Like, I want to
understand what that feels likefor you, and knowing that you
(32:12):
might get some pushback, butjust doing the practice and
letting it be out there so thatthey have a place to land when
they need it, and they know thatthey could maybe start having
some conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (32:26):
Yeah.
Donna Lynne Booher (32:26):
And you can be straight up, be like, I
haven't been doing this beforewith you. I don't really want to
practice because ourrelationship is really
important. And learning moreabout how tough it is to kind of
be an adolescent, or whateverthat is, or I noticed that, you
know, when you're feeling like,oh my gosh, I can't get this
(32:47):
paper done. I can't even startlike, you get so overwhelmed,
and then it becomes about youturn on yourself. And I'm just
curious about what happensthere, because it seems like it
would feel really bad. Insteadof being like, Could you stop
doing that? Like, oh, youshould. You don't worry about
it, you and then we should onour kids, and it's okay. Of
course, we do all of this like,this is, this is imperfection
(33:11):
and beautiful and filled withlove and led in that way. And we
just don't always know, and it'shard not to get caught up in
what the day to day is, and seeinstead, like, Oh, this is
what's going on with my kid andwith those high achieving kids,
and also, like, with the neurodivergent brains that kind of do
(33:35):
attune to like, look atdifferent things and have
different sensitivities in termsof, like, justice and like, you
have to know those things aregoing on so that you don't shut
it down. And it's not that youshouldn't have boundaries and be
like, we don't. You don't needto get as upset as you possibly
can be right now, because wedon't want kids doing that
(33:57):
either. But knowing, like, howdo you manage yourself in
between that, so that you can beokay and know that you'll be
okay and trust yourself likethat, trust that they need to
experience as adults, also trustthem, but not assuming that they
know how to do it. Because ifthey could do it, they would,
(34:19):
and that is where we drop kidsoff and be like, well, and then
we're and then we get frustratedwith them, right? Like, how many
teachers just be like, Well, Idid it yesterday. I mean, then
that next week, he wasn't, youknow, like, those things like,
well, yes, they're not littleconsistent beings, and that's
okay. Like, stuff gets in theway, and we try to figure out
(34:42):
what those things actually getin the way, and help them to be
able to see them for themselves,because they do not want to be
helpless. They don't want to beable to not figure things out
like those they the like. I wantto be frustrating to the adults
around me. Yeah, it's not reallya thing. Behavior is
(35:04):
communication, and it's just,again, not great communication.
And then they don't get theirneeds met, and then they think
they can't get their needs met,and you end up in those types of
cycles which become driven bythoughts, which then generate
the feelings that they have anddon't know what to do with.
Valerie Friedlander (35:24):
Yeah. No, that that is, that is great. And
I, I love that. It reminds me ofhow often I've had a
conversation with my son whowe've gotten therapy and so he's
able to articulate now when heis stuck in something, and I
(35:46):
I'll call out and he's like, I'malready beating myself up. Like
I'm getting even more upset whenyou are helping me understand
what I did, because I know whatI did, and I'm already beating
myself up for it. I'm like, Oh,well, what support do you need
right now? You know to be ableto ask those questions is so
(36:06):
powerful and to remember thatthe behavior is a language that
is so important, and it's a it'sa clunky language, but it is a
language, and it's often not thelanguage that we've been
conditioned to interpret it asit's like we need a decoder, and
(36:27):
we don't actually need adecoder. We just need to ask
questions and be a safe place.
The other thing that stood outto me as you were sharing about
this is that doing the work tobe able to emotionally regulate
and not center yourself as aadult is so important, because I
know that one of the things thatI took on as a kid was it was
that I was afraid that I wouldupset my parents by sharing
(36:52):
something, not that it wouldcome back at me, but that that
Their upset could be harmful tome like, and not, not
necessarily in a like, they'remad at me way, but just they're
if they're disappointed in me,if they're, you know, if I let
them down, if I if I'm not who?
And this applied to teacherstoo. Like, there was this
(37:15):
pressure that, and I'm sure it'sprobably rooted in that fear of
abandonment, but I didn't reallythink of it as it wouldn't have
been, like an intentionalabandonment would have been,
they would shut down. I wasresponsible for caring for their
feelings. And now what theydidn't even tell me that. I just
decided that. I, you know, Itook that on. So to that
(37:38):
dynamic, one of the things I'llwork with clients a lot with is
like having that conversationwith their younger self, of,
like, I can handle this. Like,if you as a if you're a little
kid, was jumping out right now,going, danger is awful. What
would you say to her? And thisactually just came up with a
client, and the client was like,Well, I would tell her that I've
(37:59):
got this. I'm going to take careof you, and I think that's part
of that we need to be able to dothat for ourselves, so that we
can be stable and create a safespace for our kids to have
whatever feelings they need tohave and be whoever they need to
be as they evolve. And thatquestion that you asked of like,
(38:23):
do you think you know better?
You might know better in thebroad world of like things, you
know, lived experiences and allof that, but they need to have
their own lived experience thatthe caterpillars become
butterfly without the digestingitself part, and that's hard to
hold space for our kids todigest themselves, because it
(38:46):
can be painful and it can bereally difficult. And if we can
be part of the cocoon, if we orthe chrysalis, or whatever, not
a biologist, we can be, if wecan, can feed that structure and
support that instead of being,instead of trying to pull it off
(39:07):
of them and force them tobutterfly that we know that they
are or that they can become, butlike that is part of the process
of them becoming that. So can wehold that space and listen. It's
hard we have to because we haveto deal with our own stuff.
Donna Lynne Booher (39:26):
It is, and we're not used to being
intentional with how we listento kids, like, really making
space for that and being likethat is like, they think an
adult is going to think it'sstupid what they have to say
sometimes, and it's just thatkind of stuff. And you're
(39:47):
talking about that fear that,you know is a human thing, of
like, I don't want to beabandoned. And if, when we work
with kids who have been havebeen abandoned, and are like,
Why did myparent leave? It wasbecause of me, something I did,
something I said. And eventhough we know that's not
rational, or we can be right, wecan out think it our intellect,
(40:10):
there's deep feeling in that.
And one of the things thatyou're talking about is, I think
that when we're trying to dothat, like, okay, come on, come
on out of there. You're ready,let's go. And they're like new
I'm not is that we have tosometimes shift our expectation
and let them help set what thoseare. We, of course, don't want
(40:31):
to be like here. The bar isreally low, but it is meeting
them where they're at and thentrying to move up to what
they're able to do so that theyknow themselves from knowing
themselves and their limits andtheir possibilities is
essential. It's just absolutelyessential in terms of how they
progress, you know, as intoadolescents, into college and
(40:53):
adults. And one of the things Iwould say is getting caught up
in trying to help them analyzethings is a very typical thing
that we do, because we try toout think it, and instead,
something that can be tried isis just to immediately go to
compassion and support. Now,what do you think? You know
(41:17):
they're having an emotionalmoment and you're like, What do
you think? Could you explain?
Can you explain more? Okay, keeptrying to explain. Be like, just
try a time. Then you don't dothat at all to them. It can be a
really powerful shift wherethey'll be like, Wait, what is
happening to be like, becausethat's where you're saying,
(41:37):
like, here's your feeling life,which we come on with so
strongly, and I'm trying to getyou back up in your head to
figure it out. But that doesn'talways make the feelings go
away, and especially in that agegroup like that, is not what
their capacity is at for most ofthe time. And so they just need
a lot of assistance. And justbecause they can have a
(41:58):
conversation or be like, I'm notworried about it, where it tell
you how it is. It doesn't meanthat they're not having a deep
experience that they really doneed some support with. And they
can act so much more mature.
Thatwe're like, they're handlingit. They're good. Yes, at some
level they are, and we don'tstep out. It's also like, wow,
(42:18):
that sounds really hard. I wantto hear more about it. I don't
know what that's like. Or wouldyou like to hear a story of a
time that happened for me andwhat I did instead of just doing
the advice thing, like you'rekind of doing that, like they
are entities of their own, andwe oftentimes, I think can
(42:40):
forget that.
Valerie Friedlander (42:43):
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this has been
wonderful. Thank you so much forsharing everything that you have
shared. Where can people connectmore with you?
Donna Lynne Booher (42:55):
Typically, I just, you know, I'm I'm on
LinkedIn, and people usuallyfind me off LinkedIn, and just
from talking with parents andworking with kids, I have a very
big network from doing this workwith different populations. So
that's pretty usually doingfinding me on LinkedIn and
contacting me out from there, myphone and my email are on there.
Valerie Friedlander (43:18):
I will have that linked in the show notes,
so that if people have questionsabout things that you shared or
looking for resources orsupport, then they can reach out
and be in touch. So I like towrap up with a couple questions.
One is, what does it mean to youto be unlimited?
Donna Lynne Booher (43:38):
For me to be unlimited is to have an
awareness of the systems thatare operating around me with
some clarity, and then have theinternal resources that I can
call on to kind of manage how Iinterpret and live in the world,
so that I can live how I want toin terms of who I am in the
(44:01):
world and how I show up for me,that's that's what that looks
like.
Valerie Friedlander (44:07):
And when you want to evoke that unlimited
feeling, what song do you listento?
Donna Lynne Booher (44:13):
Oh, so many good songs from the 80s can kind
of help out with that. But Ithink right now, probably
fighter by Christina Aguilera.
Valerie Friedlander (44:24):
Nice.
Donna Lynne Booher (44:25):
That's been a good one.
Valerie Friedlander (44:27):
I will add that to the unlimited playlist.
Thank you so much Donna forjoining me. It has been a real
pleasure having you on.
Donna Lynne Booher (44:37):
Thank you.
It's been so nice to talk withyou. Thanks very much to you and
your listeners for just interestin how we how we work with kids
and and help them. I really,really appreciate you. Thank
you.
Valerie Friedlander (44:50):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode, please
share it, leave me a review,take a screenshot and post it on
social with a shout out to me.
Send it to a friend, or, youknow, all of the above. Want to
hang out more, join me onInstagram, or, better yet, get
on my mailing list to make sureyou don't miss out on anything,
and remember your possibilitiesare as unlimited as you are.
(45:13):
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
Hello, my friends, and welcome to another
(00:01):
episode of unlimited today weare talking about responsive
practices to support yourstressed teen, and that starts
with understanding not justtheir emotional needs, but your
own inner child's unhealedpatterns. I know you're shocked,
but this is where we getactivated, and this is where we
(00:24):
are unable to hold space forothers, particularly our kids,
is when something within us,particularly those things that
haven't been healed, areactivated. And so whether you
have teenagers now, you know youwill, or maybe you just love
this podcast, and you'relistening anyway, and you don't
have kids, this is for you,because it does relate to those
(00:48):
practices that we can employ tobe able to show up better, and
sometimes just hearing some ofthe dynamics can be extremely
validating for that healingprocess. To be able to go, oh,
that's what I was missing,because trauma lowercase t
trauma isn't just things thathappen to us, it's things that
(01:09):
don't happen that should have.
And we live in a society full ofthings that don't happen that
should have. I did a training ontrauma a while ago with Angela
Johnson, and she talked abouthow our brain is naturally wired
for connection, but traumarewires it for protection, and
so when we don't engage that, weend up perpetuating those
(01:31):
patterns as a norm. So RichardRohr said pain that isn't
transformed is transmitted, andI'm seeing that a lot, honestly,
that is a big, big invitationright now in our world is to
look at the pain. And sometimeswhen we won't look at the pain,
the pain gets bigger and biggeruntil you just can't not. So
(01:52):
that is something that I reallybelieve we're being invited to
look at, and I am heartbroken athow painful I think that may
get. And I also still very, verymuch believe that we have to
start by looking internally atwhere that resides within us,
(02:12):
before that we can show up andhelp with healing and making and
imagining and then making a newworld, a new way of being with
one another. I am offering awinter women's circle to do just
that, that inner reflectionthat's coming up in December. I
(02:35):
know it's not a lot of time tothink about it, but if you are
interested in that space, to gointo a restful, honoring winter
space, to do that reflection, totake a look at our inner critic,
to take a look at that shadowside, and uplift our light and
(02:55):
reclaim Our power within all ofthose things. And I invite you
to check out that group. I'monly enrolling 10 people, so
it's going to be a small,intimate group. The link is
going to be in the show notes,so take a look there. As for
this episode, I have invitedDonna Lynn Burr, who is the
(03:18):
creator of student stresssolutions, to have this
conversation about responsivepractices, because that's what
she does. She is a studentsupport specialist who helps
students to integrate academicskills, stress management tools
and cognitive coaching. Shehelps educators and families to
explore responsive practicesthat build trust, a sense of
(03:42):
belonging and authenticconnection. She has worked as an
academic support counselor withneurodivergent students in a
college preparatory setting,designed and taught teen health
and wellness SEL curriculums,and been an adjunct and Student
Wellness counselor and ProgramCoordinator at prestigious pre
professional art schools. Hergirls education program was
(04:04):
recognized by the US Departmentof Health and Human Services
Office of Women's Health. She isa fierce student advocate, and
likes to raise awareness aroundableism and exploring
assumptions that we bring intoclassrooms and communities. She
is passionate about regardingstudents with positive regard,
valuing their experience andtheir perspective. She has
(04:25):
extensive training and educationin social and emotional
learning, adolescentdevelopment, instructional
coaching, mindfulness inschools, and is a holistic
stress management instructorthrough the National Wellness
Institute. Some of the thingsthat we talk about in this
episode are understanding how togive emotional validation,
breaking free fromperfectionism, developing trust
(04:45):
and improving communication andholding space for your kids,
evolving identity. I know you'regonna love this conversation. So
now without further ado, let'sget started.
Hey, there. I'm ValerieFriedlander, Certified Life
business alignment Coach. Andthis is unlimited. This podcast
(05:06):
bridges the individual and thesocietal, scientific and
spiritual, positive andnegative, nerdy and no, there's
just a lot of nerdy. Come onboard. And let's unlock a life
that's as bad ass as you are.
(05:28):
Welcome, Donna, I'm so excitedto have you on unlimited
Donna Lynne Booher (05:33):
Thank you.
I'm very excited to be here andget to talk with you.
Valerie Friedlander (05:37):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So starting
off, I'd like to ask, what is alimit that you took for granted
that you have since unlearned?
Donna Lynne Booher (05:50):
Oh, that is such a great question. I think a
limit that I have unlearned isbelieving that I need to follow
what my thoughts are telling me,instead of being just kind of
led by that. And I've learnedthat through teaching as well,
is just I don't have to believeit, I don't have to question it,
(06:15):
and I don't have to follow thefeelings like I actually have
some agency. And looking backand being like, Wait, what are
you saying and making somechoices by kind of raising my
own self awareness, that's beena been a life changer.
Valerie Friedlander (06:30):
Yeah, definitely. I'm really excited
to dig in to that further,because one of the things as we
were talking just before westarted recording, is that your
clients are really the kids ofmy clients. Yeah, that's who you
know. The people that I'mworking with are people who want
(06:52):
to make a difference in theworld. They want to make change,
and they're probably unpackingsome of the things that they
learned as kids, and thenthey're starting to see it
mirrored in their kids. And oneof the things that stood out
that we've talked a little bitabout is high achievers, and how
often you're working with highachieving kids, and I tend to
(07:14):
work with high achieving adults,and the overwhelm that comes in.
So I'd love to start there,because a lot of this, I think
we're going to be looking atthese, you know, generational
patterns that we may or may notbe aware of, or at different
points aware of. So what do youtend to see with the young
people who are high achievers?
Donna Lynne Booher (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, what I see is
stress, like, there's a lot ofstress that's happening, and
there's also, you know, you cansee that that the kids also are
trying to manage their adults,because oftentimes they do have
parents that are also kind ofhigh achieving and had These
(07:59):
expectations. So the student islike the kids often balancing
those expectations against whattheir adult thinks of them, or
what they think their adultthinks of them. And I think that
can be kind of running behindthe scenes in their head, and it
causes a lot of internalpressure. The other piece I see
(08:21):
with almost every one of thestudents that I work with is
what they do with theiremotions. They're actually kind
of like try to avoid them at allcosts. Because right our human
brain isn't like I would like tofeel pain. It's more caged with
our negativity bias and thingslike that. To watch for things
(08:41):
so that we can avoid suffering.
And so I will see kids do thatquite frequently, and it really
creates a buildup of thatoverwhelm and anxiety, because
how they're feeling feelsoverwhelming, and the feeling
that they're having, they don'tknow what to do with it, or many
of them think they shouldn'thave it. So we'll see that kind
(09:02):
of like, how do you have anemotional life and also be
appearing to be very successfulat the same time, because of
some of the things that aresocialized of what it is to be
like. You need to look like youhave everything together, and
you're doing it all, and youknow everything, and you've got
(09:24):
this going on, and the way welook at crying, or all these
types of things, so they'rereally managing an internal life
within that external containerthat's going on In their
families, and then when you getto school, you just add on to
it. So there it's a lot, it'sreally, really a lot. And so I
(09:47):
really feel for many of them,and that's a lot of what, what
we end up working on. And in theend, they end up being more
productive once they have moreconfidence and more resources of
being able to manage whatevercomes up. So it's not that I
don't want to go into thesituation, because I think I
can't handle it like this a bigpiece, and so helping them to
(10:11):
feel more like, okay, whateverdoes happen, I can handle that.
And as adults, you know, samething. We're not immune from
that either, but I definitelysee that as a pattern students I
work with.
Valerie Friedlander (10:27):
Oh my gosh.
You know it's funny because thatwell, it's not, I say it's
funny, it's not really funny.
Haha funny, not haha funny,because that's very much what I
see with a lot of adults that Iwork with as well, is that and
and in some ways, there's thispressure that parents will put
(10:47):
on themselves, and I know thatI've I've felt this too, of how
I show up, not just in my worksetting, but also with my kids.
I don't want to pass on thethings that I experienced. I
want to do it differently. Iwant to do it better. I want to
show up the best. And in someways, the pressure that we put
on ourselves to do that adds tothat space of stress of the
(11:14):
appearances versus how we reallyfeel and the what you said, the
I shouldn't feel overwhelmed allthe shoulds. And I recently was
talking to somebody about theshoulds cover shame when we
should on ourselves. It's it'sthis shaming that we've learned
so we should that we shouldn'tbe so stressed, we shouldn't be
(11:37):
so overwhelmed, and then we'rebeating ourselves and we
shouldn't be beating ourselvesup, and then we're beating
ourselves up for beatingourselves up, and that it's
almost like a building upinside, like a volcano, like
pressure. And then when we getactivated, we'll explode on
(12:01):
those around us, whether it'strying to control, and it's not
always like a yelling explosion,but it's usually control. I feel
out of control because I wasn'table to control what's happening
inside of me, and so now I'mgoing to try and exert control
outside of myself, where Iactually don't have control, but
I have the appearance ofcontrol, sometimes, especially
(12:23):
with my kids, and then we'reinto a cycle that we hate, that
we then beat ourselves up foragain. So what do you do?
Because I know we were talkingbeforehand about seeing this
pattern, and you know you dowork with both the kids and
helping the parents so the kidscan be successful. What are some
(12:44):
tools that you find are helpfulwith the kids navigating this
dynamic with their parents?
Donna Lynne Booher (12:55):
I you know your piece about talking about
like, I don't want to bevulnerable becoming this goal
that we sometimes have so thatother people can't hurt us or
see that we're struggling. Ijust wanted to kind of mention
that as well, like in whatyou're talking about about when
we're shoulding all over things,it's that when you catch
(13:19):
yourself doing that, and that'ssome of the work that I like to
do with kids. As you startcatching the things, or catching
the feeling in your body likethat tells you something else is
going on and that you're tryingto be something, maybe that
you're not or behave in a waybecause you're trying to protect
yourself. And of course, you arelike being vulnerable is is
(13:42):
scary. And as an adolescent,when you know so much is about,
what does this mean? About me?
It's a really, it's a big periodof where you reflect back to
them over and over, in part,that's part of their
development. So when our adultsdon't do that, well, that can be
problematic, because I'll havestudents who will tell me, Well,
(14:04):
my parents are perfect. And yougo like, Wow, do you know? And
to like, try to delve into thatand that. That some of why they
will limit themselves so theylimit their own expression to
what will be acceptable withintheir family. And that's really,
I think, part of where thatperfectionism can come in as
(14:27):
well, and that by what I do andwhat I achieve, how I'm going to
get accepted. And it'sunfortunate in a way, because
we've all been raised with thatbelief, like, like, those of us
who are working on that, that'snot how we want to show up. We
actually want to be like, Oh, Itotally blew this with my kid,
like it was bad. And for the youknow, your child to know, we're
(14:52):
also committed in our family todoing the repair, and we're not
going to do this right lots oftimes, but we are going to turn
in towards each other instead ofturning away. And that is hard,
because we as adults also haveto have that commitment to like,
Okay, I gotta work on mycommunication, and that I'm not
(15:13):
going to be perfect, and allthose fears that we have of
like, maybe I'm not capable ofdoing this, or I'm going to mess
up my kid. You also miss out onreally seeing your kid. And so I
think I'll work with people whoare like, I know my kid better
than anyone Absolutely. And howwell do you know your kid? Like,
(15:36):
really? Because the kids thatyou know that kind of duality of
like who I am with my parents orwhat I let my parent know, when
we start seeing that kids can'tstart omitting information that
they don't think their parentswould be okay with. You know,
those things happen, and some ofthat becomes part of the
(15:58):
development. But that collectivepiece about what do we expect
with our kids and how will wesupport them, comes from the
adults in their environment,like that is part of their
creation story. Is how, how dowe do this with kids, and what
do we all agree on that we'regoing to help them with? So just
that piece of like, how we wereraised. You mentioned that too?
(16:24):
Like, that pattern of like,Well, my dad said sticks and
stones will break your bones,but words will never hurt you,
not actually helpful, a niceidea. But then there's the
reality of their experience. Andwe don't, you know, we're
learning so much more about howimportant it is to validate that
and that it's okay to have thefeeling, and then what you do
(16:46):
with it is what we want to talkabout. And if they don't have
outlets, and they don'tunderstand, like, Yeah, that's
really normal. Like, you canhave really big, big feeling
about it, and then be able toget yourself back, because, you
know, it's okay, you don't getlost in, like, the spiral that
just will take kids out of,like, I can't do this. I can't
(17:09):
I'm stupid. This is too I can'tdo it. Like, the whole like, we
can do hard things, and it doestake resources for us to be able
to do those sometimes, andthat's okay.
Valerie Friedlander (17:23):
Yeah, one of the things that you said in a
previous conversation that wehad really stood out to me right
there, is you said, don't assumekids know how to communicate.
And I wrote that down because itreally I so often, especially
when we're dealing with kids whoare really they pick things up
(17:46):
really quickly. I hesitate touse the word smart, because I
know that that gets caught upand like that fixed mindset and
like, you know, the definitionsof people, but who pick things
up quickly, who articulateeasily, who kind of match you in
a certain level, it's reallyeasy to forget that they're
still functioning with Kidbrains that aren't fully
(18:07):
developed yet, and all thethings that we might be learning
about healthy conflict, youknow, productive conflict,
emotional intelligence, and allthat we're learning those
things, You know, for thosefolks who are listening, who
most, most of whom are areinterested in personal
development, are learning thosethings. And I always said I
(18:30):
watched my parents do a lot ofself work, and I got this tool
box of full of tools, but I onlylearned how to use a hammer
because I only had that earlyconditioning of of everything
being a hammer and nail. Andwhile I watched them get better,
I could see it, but I couldn'ttake it in, and I didn't know
(18:51):
how to articulate. I had, like,lots of great sayings. My mom
had lots of great sayings that Ithought were awesome. Again,
when you said, like, thought outmy your parents were perfect.
That was me. I really thought,like they have stuff, but
they're, they're they'reamazing, they're doing all these
things, and then I had to dothat unpacking. But like to have
a healthy conflict, to actuallyengage, like I still consider
(19:15):
myself, even though I've done alot of work, to be relatively
conflict averse, working on itgetting better and healthy
conflict still feels likeconflict, and my ability to
articulate still gets caught inthe emotional net, and I have a
fully functioning frontalcortex, you know, fully
(19:37):
developed frontal cortex, Ishould say. So how do you engage
that knowing, okay, their theirfrontal cortex is fully
developed, and they've got allof these patterns that maybe
I've started unlearning, but Igave in the first place. Where
does one go with that?
Donna Lynne Booher (19:59):
That is such a great question. Because yeah,
we make so we, I think asadults, we make a lot of
assumptions, because we just getused to them talking to us, and
so we assume that they also haveskills to do that, but
communicating is a very complexskill that can often feel very
complicated for them, and soteaching them how to do that, I
(20:25):
think, is a lot with listening,and I think that we really miss
out a lot of time on justactually listening for what
they're saying and what they'reexperiencing, and that that we
want to make them feel better soquickly, that even like in a
(20:47):
school system or we tried totake those decisions away from
them, which means they don't getto practice having a voice or
saying this doesn't feel okay,and as allowing them to say this
doesn't feel okay withoutconsequence. Like learning those
things is something I thinkthat's really that we end up
missing, like in a schoolsetting, for me and when I meet
(21:10):
with students, sometimes I do alot of what I would do in my
classes, which is, we talk aboutcommunication. We talk about
social power, like having themline each other up in order of
social power. If you want to seea classroom, I mean, it takes
being very skilled atfacilitating, because you have
(21:32):
to maintain their safety, likethat, psychological safety and
the safety outside theclassroom. But before that, we
work so much on communicationskills, because everyone's
family has a different set ofskills and rules, and so we
don't talk to kids about thatstuff. They'll say, like, what
is it, what does it look like inyour family? Can you are you
able to articulate that tosomeone else? What's it feel
(21:56):
like? What's it, you know? Like,how do you have those
conversations? So I think havingconversations with kids is a
skill that a lot of times wejust, when we're raising them,
we're like, oh, they just,they've always been here. We
always talk like this, but totake a step back, and like you
had mentioned that, don't assumethat they know how to
(22:18):
communicate, becausecommunication is really, really
a skill, like, did you reallyhear what they said and then did
you make a decision about it, ordid you validate it? And so that
question, I know a lot of, a lotof kids will express that their
parents always want them to justsolve the problem on the spot,
(22:42):
and that, of course, we're like,Okay, can we? Can we move
through this so that we can geton to the thing that I actually
need you to do for me? And whenyou know that, you can catch
yourself on that and be like,wait a minute, the kid right in
front of me is the pause, andit's a really beautiful gift to
(23:04):
have because it also helps themin understanding, oh, you're
modeling for them, how you cancommunicate, and you're, you're
modeling for them all the time.
And so that's some of the Ithink there's tools within the
family systems and also withinschools, because that dynamic is
always happening in schools, andI've just been fortunate enough
(23:26):
that I've been able to to doreally in depth education, in
particular, starting in middleschool with those age groups, so
that they can communicate andhave friendship, because it has
so much to do with thatformative stuff is really
important. And as they progress,how healthy they basically stay
(23:48):
in behaviors, mental health,physical activities, all those
types of things, and being ableto be a good friend and have a
friend mean kids. Kids arelonely too, and they play the
same game that we do, of showingup and being like, No, I'm good.
I'm good. And being able toattune with them is something
that takes practice andintention.
Valerie Friedlander (24:14):
Yeah, I'm noticing, as you're saying, that
one of the things that's comingup for me is it's it's an
ability to manage our ownemotions and our own pain, with
our child hurting, especially ifwe feel a certain amount of
responsibility or that rightlike this is one of the things
(24:36):
that I'm I'm noticing, is like,who's being centered in that
conversation? Is it us and ourfeelings, or is it our kid and
their feelings and what theirneeds are? And that was like,
that was the first thing thatjumped out to me, and like I was
(24:56):
feeling it. I was real. That wasa visceral experience. As you
were talking about that, I feltit like, oh yeah, because there
are times where I have to reallysit with my own stuff, and it's
hard to put that to the side andsay, No, this is this is about
you. The other thing that wasstanding out to me is when you
said assumptions, and talkingabout the assumptions that we
(25:17):
make. This is something that Inoticed comes up a lot in
relationships that are long termrelationships, is when you've
been with somebody for a longtime, you're so used to certain
patterns that it makes it hardto allow that person to change
and grow, because we makeassumptions about it. And
they're they're little, they'relittle things. But like one of
(25:38):
the things that I'll use in asan example is if my husband and
I are having tension, and wealways argue because he's coming
home late, and so we argue whenhe comes in the door, then my
body will respond, be ready forthe fight, like when I hear him
on the stairs right like, and wedon't even think about all the
(25:58):
little things that go into thatpattern. And then, when you know
somebody their entire lifebecause they're your kid, the
little assumptions that we makethere become a huge facet in how
we understand ourselves and howwe understand them, and how they
understand themselves and withinthat relationship. And is it
(26:22):
safe? Is it safe to explorethat? Because there are
assumptions when they becomepart of us, like they're part of
our belief of who we are and whosomebody else is and who they
are in relation to us. Havingthat challenge can feel like a
threat. It can feel like anattack. And so how resilient are
(26:43):
you to show up to that? Butalso, and I imagine this shows
up in the classrooms too,because when you're dealing with
a lot of kids, especially fromdifferent cultural backgrounds,
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, and the ways that
people learn how to engage fortheir ability to function in the
(27:04):
environments in which they live,you're gonna have a lot of that
navigating of how things getarticulated like this. This is
unsafe, so I'm going to use thisas a way to make fun of people,
because I need to emphasize whatis normal to create a sense of
safety, but who's choosing whatis normalized, and then what
(27:28):
comes home, and then, if the kidknows that that's not part of
the way that we function, and wehaven't built an ability to have
a conversation about that andprocess the feelings that come
up with that, it's almost, Ialmost see, like a calcification
that happens in our relationshipand in their interpersonal
(27:53):
relationships, and how safe theyfeel because of how safe they
feel at home and with adults.
That was a lot. So I'm going tothrow the ball to your court,
because my brain is, like,buzzing.
Donna Lynne Booher (28:05):
I love all of this. So because it really
is, there's so much, andthere's, like, a really big
view, and then there's and itapplies across all these
different, you know, layers ofof how we exist and that lived
experience you're talking about,like, do you really know their
lived experience? And do youvalue it like we assume that we
(28:26):
do, and they get busy being whothey're supposed to be, because
we don't kind of help themsometimes to be who they
actually are, and it gets lost.
And so playing that like, I willask a parent or a guardian
questions. So do you know betterthan your kid? That piece of
when you start getting into, areyou getting into a power
(28:48):
struggle? And this is in aclassroom, or it's in in your
family system, in your culture,in your you know, like, what's
the power struggle for you? Andoftentimes just that question
of, Do you feel like you knowbetter than your kid? And
typically the answer is, well,yes, they're just a kid. And so
that piece, I think, is reallygood information, because
(29:13):
listening to kids and being likethat is what they think that is
what is so real for them, andwhether or not you feel it's
valid isn't what we're talkingabout. And so that thing you're
talking about is like, have youcentered yourself? Is what we
have to kind of just check onourselves if we're doing that.
(29:37):
So that is one of the questionsI like to ask. And you know,
I'll ask students, what wouldyour parents be surprised to
learn about you? Like, what doyou wish that you could say to
them? What do you wish that theyknew about you that they don't
and parents can ask themselvesand ask their kids these
(29:58):
questions. Right? But thosethings that need to be in place
before a kid who doesn't feelthat safety with their parents
that it would be okay to saythat won't, of course, and it's
not like, oh, because my parentsare so mean. It's really just
they are so, so, so, so tuned inlike, their feelers are out for,
(30:18):
like, Do you love and accept me?
That's what they're doing allthe time, and it can be so
tiring, and they're trying tosurvive. And they're also at a
time when they need to be ableto be all these different
things, you know, like we talkedabout about, like, you have this
huge box of clothes that youjust get to play dress up. Like,
(30:43):
how many outfits do you choose?
What do you try on? Well, like Iwould only do this. Okay, what
would your what would yourfamily say you're allowed to try
on? What does society say youwould try on? What your friends
say you would try on if you wereto flip into another friend
group, what would they tell youyou had to try on? So they're
really doing this identityformation, and that's kind of
the complexity of what's goingon. And it is, I like to think
(31:06):
of them that we know, like we'relearning so much about bias and
kind of the cultural things thathappen that these are all
cultures. Like we have culturesin our families, we have
cultures that we live in. Wehave cultures in school. We have
cultures within cultures inschool, and we're relying on
these thoughts, like when youtalk about that community
(31:27):
foundation and that collectivefoundation. We have to rely on
the adults in our community tohave, or be trying to have a
skill level in the society welive in, under the pressure of
everything they're doing intheir own day to day lives,
trying to be human. Like it canseem like just a ridiculous ask,
but these moments of sayinglike, Okay, I'm gonna really try
(31:52):
to see my kid as if I'm justmeeting them today. And I find
that it can be really powerfulto get yourself out of the way.
Like, I know I'm gonna say Iknow nothing about this kid.
Like, could you tell me moreabout that? Like, I want to
understand what that feels likefor you, and knowing that you
(32:12):
might get some pushback, butjust doing the practice and
letting it be out there so thatthey have a place to land when
they need it, and they know thatthey could maybe start having
some conversation.
Valerie Friedlander (32:26):
Yeah.
Donna Lynne Booher (32:26):
And you can be straight up, be like, I
haven't been doing this beforewith you. I don't really want to
practice because ourrelationship is really
important. And learning moreabout how tough it is to kind of
be an adolescent, or whateverthat is, or I noticed that, you
know, when you're feeling like,oh my gosh, I can't get this
(32:47):
paper done. I can't even startlike, you get so overwhelmed,
and then it becomes about youturn on yourself. And I'm just
curious about what happensthere, because it seems like it
would feel really bad. Insteadof being like, Could you stop
doing that? Like, oh, youshould. You don't worry about
it, you and then we should onour kids, and it's okay. Of
course, we do all of this like,this is, this is imperfection
(33:11):
and beautiful and filled withlove and led in that way. And we
just don't always know, and it'shard not to get caught up in
what the day to day is, and seeinstead, like, Oh, this is
what's going on with my kid andwith those high achieving kids,
and also, like, with the neurodivergent brains that kind of do
(33:35):
attune to like, look atdifferent things and have
different sensitivities in termsof, like, justice and like, you
have to know those things aregoing on so that you don't shut
it down. And it's not that youshouldn't have boundaries and be
like, we don't. You don't needto get as upset as you possibly
can be right now, because wedon't want kids doing that
(33:57):
either. But knowing, like, howdo you manage yourself in
between that, so that you can beokay and know that you'll be
okay and trust yourself likethat, trust that they need to
experience as adults, also trustthem, but not assuming that they
know how to do it. Because ifthey could do it, they would,
(34:19):
and that is where we drop kidsoff and be like, well, and then
we're and then we get frustratedwith them, right? Like, how many
teachers just be like, Well, Idid it yesterday. I mean, then
that next week, he wasn't, youknow, like, those things like,
well, yes, they're not littleconsistent beings, and that's
okay. Like, stuff gets in theway, and we try to figure out
(34:42):
what those things actually getin the way, and help them to be
able to see them for themselves,because they do not want to be
helpless. They don't want to beable to not figure things out
like those they the like. I wantto be frustrating to the adults
around me. Yeah, it's not reallya thing. Behavior is
(35:04):
communication, and it's just,again, not great communication.
And then they don't get theirneeds met, and then they think
they can't get their needs met,and you end up in those types of
cycles which become driven bythoughts, which then generate
the feelings that they have anddon't know what to do with.
Valerie Friedlander (35:24):
Yeah. No, that that is, that is great. And
I, I love that. It reminds me ofhow often I've had a
conversation with my son whowe've gotten therapy and so he's
able to articulate now when heis stuck in something, and I
(35:46):
I'll call out and he's like, I'malready beating myself up. Like
I'm getting even more upset whenyou are helping me understand
what I did, because I know whatI did, and I'm already beating
myself up for it. I'm like, Oh,well, what support do you need
right now? You know to be ableto ask those questions is so
(36:06):
powerful and to remember thatthe behavior is a language that
is so important, and it's a it'sa clunky language, but it is a
language, and it's often not thelanguage that we've been
conditioned to interpret it asit's like we need a decoder, and
(36:27):
we don't actually need adecoder. We just need to ask
questions and be a safe place.
The other thing that stood outto me as you were sharing about
this is that doing the work tobe able to emotionally regulate
and not center yourself as aadult is so important, because I
know that one of the things thatI took on as a kid was it was
that I was afraid that I wouldupset my parents by sharing
(36:52):
something, not that it wouldcome back at me, but that that
Their upset could be harmful tome like, and not, not
necessarily in a like, they'remad at me way, but just they're
if they're disappointed in me,if they're, you know, if I let
them down, if I if I'm not who?
And this applied to teacherstoo. Like, there was this
(37:15):
pressure that, and I'm sure it'sprobably rooted in that fear of
abandonment, but I didn't reallythink of it as it wouldn't have
been, like an intentionalabandonment would have been,
they would shut down. I wasresponsible for caring for their
feelings. And now what theydidn't even tell me that. I just
decided that. I, you know, Itook that on. So to that
(37:38):
dynamic, one of the things I'llwork with clients a lot with is
like having that conversationwith their younger self, of,
like, I can handle this. Like,if you as a if you're a little
kid, was jumping out right now,going, danger is awful. What
would you say to her? And thisactually just came up with a
client, and the client was like,Well, I would tell her that I've
(37:59):
got this. I'm going to take careof you, and I think that's part
of that we need to be able to dothat for ourselves, so that we
can be stable and create a safespace for our kids to have
whatever feelings they need tohave and be whoever they need to
be as they evolve. And thatquestion that you asked of like,
(38:23):
do you think you know better?
You might know better in thebroad world of like things, you
know, lived experiences and allof that, but they need to have
their own lived experience thatthe caterpillars become
butterfly without the digestingitself part, and that's hard to
hold space for our kids todigest themselves, because it
(38:46):
can be painful and it can bereally difficult. And if we can
be part of the cocoon, if we orthe chrysalis, or whatever, not
a biologist, we can be, if wecan, can feed that structure and
support that instead of being,instead of trying to pull it off
(39:07):
of them and force them tobutterfly that we know that they
are or that they can become, butlike that is part of the process
of them becoming that. So can wehold that space and listen. It's
hard we have to because we haveto deal with our own stuff.
Donna Lynne Booher (39:26):
It is, and we're not used to being
intentional with how we listento kids, like, really making
space for that and being likethat is like, they think an
adult is going to think it'sstupid what they have to say
sometimes, and it's just thatkind of stuff. And you're
(39:47):
talking about that fear that,you know is a human thing, of
like, I don't want to beabandoned. And if, when we work
with kids who have been havebeen abandoned, and are like,
Why did myparent leave? It wasbecause of me, something I did,
something I said. And eventhough we know that's not
rational, or we can be right, wecan out think it our intellect,
(40:10):
there's deep feeling in that.
And one of the things thatyou're talking about is, I think
that when we're trying to dothat, like, okay, come on, come
on out of there. You're ready,let's go. And they're like new
I'm not is that we have tosometimes shift our expectation
and let them help set what thoseare. We, of course, don't want
(40:31):
to be like here. The bar isreally low, but it is meeting
them where they're at and thentrying to move up to what
they're able to do so that theyknow themselves from knowing
themselves and their limits andtheir possibilities is
essential. It's just absolutelyessential in terms of how they
progress, you know, as intoadolescents, into college and
(40:53):
adults. And one of the things Iwould say is getting caught up
in trying to help them analyzethings is a very typical thing
that we do, because we try toout think it, and instead,
something that can be tried isis just to immediately go to
compassion and support. Now,what do you think? You know
(41:17):
they're having an emotionalmoment and you're like, What do
you think? Could you explain?
Can you explain more? Okay, keeptrying to explain. Be like, just
try a time. Then you don't dothat at all to them. It can be a
really powerful shift wherethey'll be like, Wait, what is
happening to be like, becausethat's where you're saying,
(41:37):
like, here's your feeling life,which we come on with so
strongly, and I'm trying to getyou back up in your head to
figure it out. But that doesn'talways make the feelings go
away, and especially in that agegroup like that, is not what
their capacity is at for most ofthe time. And so they just need
a lot of assistance. And justbecause they can have a
(41:58):
conversation or be like, I'm notworried about it, where it tell
you how it is. It doesn't meanthat they're not having a deep
experience that they really doneed some support with. And they
can act so much more mature.
Thatwe're like, they're handlingit. They're good. Yes, at some
level they are, and we don'tstep out. It's also like, wow,
(42:18):
that sounds really hard. I wantto hear more about it. I don't
know what that's like. Or wouldyou like to hear a story of a
time that happened for me andwhat I did instead of just doing
the advice thing, like you'rekind of doing that, like they
are entities of their own, andwe oftentimes, I think can
(42:40):
forget that.
Valerie Friedlander (42:43):
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this has been
wonderful. Thank you so much forsharing everything that you have
shared. Where can people connectmore with you?
Donna Lynne Booher (42:55):
Typically, I just, you know, I'm I'm on
LinkedIn, and people usuallyfind me off LinkedIn, and just
from talking with parents andworking with kids, I have a very
big network from doing this workwith different populations. So
that's pretty usually doingfinding me on LinkedIn and
contacting me out from there, myphone and my email are on there.
Valerie Friedlander (43:18):
I will have that linked in the show notes,
so that if people have questionsabout things that you shared or
looking for resources orsupport, then they can reach out
and be in touch. So I like towrap up with a couple questions.
One is, what does it mean to youto be unlimited?
Donna Lynne Booher (43:38):
For me to be unlimited is to have an
awareness of the systems thatare operating around me with
some clarity, and then have theinternal resources that I can
call on to kind of manage how Iinterpret and live in the world,
so that I can live how I want toin terms of who I am in the
(44:01):
world and how I show up for me,that's that's what that looks
like.
Valerie Friedlander (44:07):
And when you want to evoke that unlimited
feeling, what song do you listento?
Donna Lynne Booher (44:13):
Oh, so many good songs from the 80s can kind
of help out with that. But Ithink right now, probably
fighter by Christina Aguilera.
Valerie Friedlander (44:24):
Nice.
Donna Lynne Booher (44:25):
That's been a good one.
Valerie Friedlander (44:27):
I will add that to the unlimited playlist.
Thank you so much Donna forjoining me. It has been a real
pleasure having you on.
Donna Lynne Booher (44:37):
Thank you.
It's been so nice to talk withyou. Thanks very much to you and
your listeners for just interestin how we how we work with kids
and and help them. I really,really appreciate you. Thank
you.
Valerie Friedlander (44:50):
Thanks for listening. I so appreciate you
being here. If you got somethingout of today's episode, please
share it, leave me a review,take a screenshot and post it on
social with a shout out to me.
Send it to a friend, or, youknow, all of the above. Want to
hang out more, join me onInstagram, or, better yet, get
on my mailing list to make sureyou don't miss out on anything,
and remember your possibilitiesare as unlimited as you are.
(45:13):
Allow yourself to shine, myfriend, the world needs your
light. See you next time you.
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