April 29, 2025 • 33 mins
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James Divine transforms his painful past into hope for listeners in this powerful exploration of forgiveness after childhood sexual abuse. As a middle school teacher, musician, and author, James brings unique perspective to the difficult journey of healing from severe trauma.
Starting with his own story of abuse from ages 6-9, James reveals how his path to forgiveness began at 16 when he realized the hatred consuming him was destroying his own life. Far from a single decision, he describes forgiveness as "step one on a thousand-mile journey" that he's still walking at 58. This raw honesty about the ongoing nature of healing provides realistic hope for listeners carrying similar burdens.
The conversation delves into how unforgiveness damages every aspect of our lives - from our finances and physical health to our relationships and sense of self-worth. James uses vivid metaphors, comparing unforgiveness to both acid eating through skin and cancer growing within, to illustrate its destructive power. These visceral images highlight the urgency of addressing harbored resentment and bitterness.
James clarifies crucial misconceptions about forgiveness. He emphasizes that forgiving someone doesn't mean excusing their actions or reconciling with them. This distinction proves especially important for abuse survivors who often fear that forgiveness means minimizing what happened or returning to dangerous relationships. Instead, he frames forgiveness as a choice we make for our own freedom - one we may need to make repeatedly as new memories surface.
The episode concludes with information about James' free "Forgive and Live Workshop" course and his book "Sad Boy, Joyful Man," providing practical resources for listeners ready to begin their own healing journey. Whether you're carrying decades of pain or helping a young person navigate trauma, this episode offers both compassionate understanding and actionable guidance toward freedom.
For the free course James Divine offers, please click below.
https://www.jamesdivine.net/products/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fatima Bey (00:01):
Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the only
international podcast focused onteens, connecting young voices
and perspectives from around theworld.
Get ready to explore the issuesthat matter to today's youth
and shape tomorrow's world.
I'm your host, fatima Bey theMindShifter, and welcome
(00:24):
everyone.
Today we have with us areturned guest, james Devine.
He is out of Colorado.
He is a speaker, middle schoolteacher, musician and podcaster.
Today we're here because he'salso an author and we're going
to talk about forgiveness.
So how are you doing today,james?
James Divine (00:41):
I'm doing well.
Thank you for having me on.
Fatima Bey (00:43):
Thank you for coming on again.
So, as you know, I like to diveright in.
So tell us, why are you heretoday?
James Divine (00:55):
I am here today because I want to share a little
bit about my journey.
So the quick nutshell of it isfrom the ages of six to about
nine, I was molested by a friendof the family Molested is
actually too nice of a word.
I was raped by him repeatedlyover course of those several
years and then he moved away andI thought, okay, now the
healing starts.
I was just a little kid, Ididn't tell anybody about it,
but what I found was that thishatred grew within me until by
(01:16):
the time I was 16, I wanted tokill him and I also realized
because my faith was importantto me, that I needed to forgive
him and but I didn't know how todo that.
So I did finally, at the age of16, take that first step of
forgiveness and that began myhealing journey at that point.
But really that decision toforgive is really just a first
(01:39):
step.
So over the years I've kind ofdeveloped through talking to
people and through my ownjourney.
I ended up finally developing acourse that takes people
through the many steps that I'vetaken throughout my life to
forgive.
Fatima Bey (01:53):
I think it's really awesome that you are taking your
pain and turning it intosomeone else's treasure.
That is a beautiful thing thatI respect a lot.
Tell us, why do we need toforgive?
James Divine (02:05):
You know, if we don't forgive, you can see how
it affected me emotionally, withwhere I wanted to kill this guy
, and I'm actually thankful hemoved away, because I think I
could have accomplished that ifthe abuse had continued and I
had access to him.
And where would my life be nowif I had done that?
I'd be in jail, probably, Iwouldn't have got to marry my
(02:26):
wife, I wouldn't have fourbeautiful kids.
Grandbaby number 11 is on theway now.
So the reason we need toforgive is because unforgiveness
affects us emotionally,financially, believe it or not,
physically and spiritually andI'll talk about maybe one of the
physical things a little bitlater but it can affect every
(02:46):
aspect of our lives.
Fatima Bey (02:48):
How can it affect us financially?
Explain that.
James Divine (02:50):
So for me, I really struggled with my worth
for many years.
And so if someone said so, I'ma musician, for example, and if
someone said, well, you want tocome play for us and we'll pay
you 20 bucks, there was a time Iused to say yes, and I would
kind of resent it because it'slike I just played for three
hours for 20 bucks, but that'sprobably all I'm worth.
(03:12):
I didn't say this out loud, butit was what was in my brain,
and so that's when I was youngerit affected me.
My mom was the same way.
She went through a lot of thesame abuse and in the 80s
minimum wage was $5 an hour andmy mom was really great at
cleaning and she worked for thisrestaurant that seated you
(03:32):
could seat like 70 people, ifyou just kind of picture that in
your head but she could cleanit in an hour and so the guy
paid her $5.
She clocked in and cleaned itand she worked really fast but
she thought, well, that's allI'm worth.
And I remember telling her atone point I said, mom, someone
who had a cleaning business,they would at that time I mean
prices are higher now, but atthe time they would have said
(03:55):
$50, $75 to clean thisrestaurant.
She was doing it for five.
So we just value ourselves lessbecause we think of ourselves
less when we are stillstruggling with that
unforgiveness.
Fatima Bey (04:08):
That's pretty deep and you're right.
You're absolutely right.
When we value ourselves as less, it affects our finances, it
affects entrepreneurship, itaffects whether or not we go to
college.
You know, pursue.
It affects what we pursue,basically, and also what we
accept, which is why many, many,many, many, many many youth who
(04:33):
are sexually assaulted whenthey're younger, or regularly
molested, end up beingpromiscuous or do, or end up
with people that abuse them indifferent ways.
It all boils down to self-worth, and that's not the only aspect
of anything, but that's a bigpart of it.
So you're absolutely right,most people wouldn't think about
how it affects them financially.
(04:54):
So what did you say with theother areas?
James Divine (04:56):
There's financing and Spiritually, physically,
financially, emotionally,basically every area of our
lives in some way it affects itdifferently.
Fatima Bey (05:07):
So can you break down why that's true and how
that's true?
James Divine (05:11):
I think the self-esteem aspect of it is
probably the biggest thing.
The shame that is a big part ofit too.
It just knocks us on the groundand we just don't think we're
worth it.
And then when you internalizethings so maybe I'll step
through each of these things Ifyou internalize unforgiveness
and you have hatred towardssomeone, it affects your
(05:34):
physical body, your physicalhealth and hold you back.
It holds you back in every area,just like what you were saying
with with whether you go tocollege, or what college you
think you could go to, or whatcareer you can, you can aspire
to, even how you presentyourself when you're meeting
other people and going forinterviews.
I've been on interviewcommittees before and you have
(05:56):
someone come in and they're likeyou know, I just I hope I get
this job and and you feel sorryfor them.
But you wonder, like what havethey been through?
Because they're not coming inwith confidence.
Then you have people who comein with arrogance too, and
that's bad as well, but you cansee the people who've been hurt.
Fatima Bey (06:17):
So when it comes to unforgiveness now in your case,
it was sexual molestation,correct.
Now in your case, it was sexualmolestation Correct Repeated,
continuous sexual molestationthat was the root of your anger,
that you needed to release andlet go of.
But does it have the sameeffect if you're unforgiving of
someone who?
(06:38):
Unforgiving of your father whoused to beat your mother, for
example?
James Divine (06:42):
I think it could be the same and that's also part
of my story.
My father was abusive to my momand I think that actually
contributed to me being moreeasily molested by this guy,
because I already started withlow self-esteem.
So those things can keep goingon and, as you know that we see,
we see young people whocontinue to almost like they're
(07:06):
drawn to abusive people, butit's it's to try to satisfy some
kind of need and I'm notputting any blame.
Please don't anyone think thatthe blame is on the young person
.
It took me a long time torealize.
I was a little boy.
I had no control over how thisadult was acting in my life.
He was the one 100% guilty, butwhen I was younger I felt like
(07:31):
it was my fault and I felt a lotof shame with what had happened
and thought that it was due tome have effects that continue on
to um.
For, for example, if someonehad a father in their home who
was abusive, then they may go onand be married to someone who
(07:51):
abuses them and they thinkthat's okay because then, my
sister went through that.
Fatima Bey (07:56):
She went.
James Divine (07:56):
We were so surprised when she she finally
left her husband and she told usabout the abuse and we were
thinking, why didn't you tell us?
And she said she felt like shedeserved it.
And we were like, no, you'renot, you're a child of God, you
don't deserve any of that.
But that's what she felt likebecause she had seen it in my
father.
Fatima Bey (08:16):
And you are.
You hit the nail on the headwhen you said that.
I mean, I seem to come on thissubject a lot here, you know, on
this podcast, because it's sorelevant to humans.
But it's more.
To me it's important that thismessage gets across to the youth
because they can stop somemessed up stuff that us adults
(08:37):
are still dealing with, if theydeal with it now.
So when it comes tounforgiveness, take us through.
So you have a course and yourcourse is about unforgiveness.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that course and what it's
called?
James Divine (08:52):
Sure, it's just called.
Forgive and Live Workshop iswhat the course is called, and
it takes people through a lot ofthe same steps that I've been
through myself, and I'm justgoing to cover a couple of them,
of the same steps that I'vebeen through myself, and I'm
just going to cover a couple ofthem.
For example, sometimes peoplethink, oh, I forgave, so now
(09:13):
everything's good.
That's how my mom looked atthings.
My mom stayed with my father,probably too long, and she just
accepted it.
Well, I forgive him.
I forgive him, and then hewould be abusive again.
Well, I forgive him, okay.
Well, now further consequencesneed to be taken.
Even when I told my mom at age16 about the abuse that had
happened to me, she still had away to be in touch with, to have
(09:37):
the police find this man, butshe gave up too easily and I had
to actually forgive my mom.
So one of the things that Italk about is forgiveness does
not mean excusing someone.
For example forgiveness does notmean excusing someone, and so
what I mean by that isforgiveness.
(09:57):
So, for example, the man whoabused me his name is George I
can forgive him and still pursueall the criminal penalties he
deserved.
Unfortunately, I didn't do thatthis was so long ago and plus I
kind of went with what my momwas doing, and he's probably
passed now.
(10:17):
So you can forgive someone andhave them face the consequences
of what they've done.
So, for example, if someonemurdered someone in your family,
they should go to jail.
Even if you forgive them, evenif they receive 100% forgiveness
, they still need to be in jailfor what they did.
If someone abuses a kid, theystill need to be in jail.
(10:39):
We can all forgive them, but itdoesn't mean we excuse them and
pass it off.
I mean the small things in lifewe are going to.
So if someone snubbed us and itmade us feel bad, that's
something we need to forgive andmove forward from.
But if someone did somethingwhere they deserve some kind of
punishment through the criminalsystem, then that's something
(11:01):
that we should do.
Fatima Bey (11:02):
Absolutely.
Forgiveness does not mean thatyou forget or that there
shouldn't be any consequences,because if there's no
consequences, what are we doing?
Right?
James Divine (11:10):
And forgiveness.
Here's another important onefrom the course.
Forgiveness does not alwaysmean reconciliation.
So you know, as we havesiblings and we have friends,
sometimes we have disagreementswith them and you always want to
try to reconcile with thosesmall things and become friends
again.
Fatima Bey (11:29):
What does reconcile mean?
James Divine (11:30):
So reconcile is when the relationship is
restored to what it was before.
Fatima Bey (11:36):
So you're saying, just because we forgive them, we
don't necessarily have torestore a relationship?
James Divine (11:39):
Correct.
Correct Especially when theoffense is so grievous that like
molesting a child or spousalabuse.
So if you had a spouse, forexample, who abused you, you
could forgive them.
They could face theconsequences in jail for what
they did.
But it doesn't mean when theyget out of jail that you have to
(12:00):
remain married.
That would be reconciliation.
Sometimes that happens, but inmany cases it's not.
In the the example I like togive is around 2005 or whenever
it was that Facebook startedbecoming a thing.
Um, I connected with thedaughter of the man who had
abused me and and we hadn't seenher in 20, 25 years.
(12:26):
So I noticed in her friendslist that her dad was in there.
It looked like he was sittingin a halfway house type of place
and all of a sudden, all thesethings that for years I hadn't
even thought about him hadn'tgiven him any consideration.
I thought, well, what if hesees that I'm friends with his
daughter?
What if he asked me to be aFacebook friend?
(12:46):
What if he showed up at my doorand said hey, you know, I, I I
just want to tell you I'm sorryfor what I did.
None of those things ended uphappening, but I started going
through it in my head.
And it's like if he should,first of all the Facebook friend
.
That would have been easy.
I would have denied it.
That never happened, though,but if he showed up at my door I
would say I forgive you now getthe hell off my porch, I don't
(13:12):
need to be reconciled to him.
Fatima Bey (13:14):
Right, no, you're that's.
That's a good example.
So what does forgivenessactually mean then?
James Divine (13:19):
Forgiveness means we we are putting what happened
to us in the past.
We're doing our best to not letit affect us today, and
sometimes we have to make thatdecision to forgive again and
again, and again, becausedifferent things come up in
different points of our lives.
So the example for me at theage of 16, I decided to forgive
(13:41):
George, and that was step one ona 1000 mile journey of healing
that now, at age 58, I'm stillon that journey, but now I'm on
about mile 997.
So it's like I could see theend now.
But when I took that first step, I couldn't see the end.
And as different thingshappened in my life, different
(14:03):
remembrances came up that I hadto forgive again for.
And what I mean is like when myfirstborn son, when he turned
five.
I'm looking at thisfive-year-old boy and thinking
how could someone abuse afive-year-old boy?
He's small, he's just a kid,and so it brought back all these
(14:23):
feelings and thoughts and I hadto forgive again.
And then, when I was an adultand I realized my mom did not do
all the things that she couldhave, I had to actually forgive
my mom because I think that shecould have prevented some of
this from happening, like shedidn't listen to me, and I'll
get.
I'll give you a clear exampleof that.
(14:45):
The very last time that Georgeabused me, he showed up at our
church.
I hadn't seen him for about sixmonths.
He showed up at our church andhe was asking my mom People used
to call me Jimmy when I was akid.
He asked my mom hey, can Jimmycome over to my place today and
I'll bring him back tonight?
And um, I was saying no, no, no, I don't want to go.
(15:08):
And my mom was, um, like,encouraged me.
She's like oh, come on, jimmy,go ahead and go, you'll have a
good time.
And, um, and he'll bring youback tonight.
And I didn't really want to go,but George whispered in my ear
and he's like oh, don't worry,nothing will happen.
Well, something happened, andthat was the last time, cause he
moved away after that, but Ihad to actually forgive my mom
(15:30):
for that but, I didn't realizeit.
I didn't realize it as the eightyear old boy, but I realized it
as, like the 38 year old man.
It's like why didn't, why didmy mom do that?
A 38 year old man, it's likewhy didn't, why did my mom do
that?
And I was crying over it.
And even now I can feel theemotion coming up.
Sorry, I can feel some of thatemotion coming up, anger at my
mom for pushing me towards thatthat day.
(15:53):
I mean, she didn't know so, butI still had to forgive her
because she wasn't listening toher little boy saying no, no, I
don't want to go.
Fatima Bey (16:01):
Yeah, yeah and I've said this on episodes before,
but I'm going to say it againFor parents who are out there
listening sometimes children arejust acting up because they
don't want to go to the housewhere they don't get lollipops.
Sometimes that's the case, butwhen your child is adamantly
seriously objecting going withor being near someone, there's
(16:25):
always a reason and you reallyshould look into that.
James Divine (16:28):
Yes, yes, there was one church we had attended
and we only had gone there onetime, and when we went to go the
second time and we brought mydaughter to the nursery, she
started like fighting us.
She was like about three yearsold.
She started crying and fightingus and this wasn't usual
behavior for her.
(16:48):
She wasn't usually afraid to goto some place like that, and so
we ended up not going there andwe couldn't pinpoint whether
any I mean it could have beensomething like a kid slapped her
, you know who anotherthree-year-old or three-year-old
bumped into her, but we didn'twant to take any chances, so we
never went back to that.
Fatima Bey (17:08):
And that's a good idea, because there's always
clues.
Sometimes we don't know whatwe're looking at, but that's
something that for anyonelistening right now, you don't
have to be a parent.
You could be just a parentadjacent listening right now,
you don't have to be a parent,you could be just a parent
adjacent.
You can just have kids aroundyou, that you see.
(17:30):
If a child is looking thatfearful of going with or near
someone, there's always a reason, and it's not always sexual
molestation, but it can besomething just as bad.
You should always investigate.
We have to pay attention to ourkids and their responses.
So, with forgiveness, tell us,you have this course.
What else is in this course?
Well, first of all, let me askyou this this podcast is focused
(17:54):
on teens and anything that hasto do with them in the future.
You're 58 years old, you're anold man.
Why are you on here talking toteens?
The future.
James Divine (18:03):
You 58 years old, you old man, why are you on here
?
Well, I've been where you're at.
So I, when I tell even mystudents that I teach, I still
teach middle school students,and then I have some private
lesson students all the way fromlike third grade up to high
school.
So I get a lot, and mygrandkids go from 13 down to one
(18:24):
.
My oldest is 13 years old.
So what I tell students all thetime?
I tell them I've been whereyou're at, so I've been your age
, I've been through some of thesame things, but you haven't
been my age yet.
So we can we can learn from thepeople who are older than us.
In fact, one of the things Ithink that saved me besides my
(18:44):
faith and starting thatforgiveness journey is I always
found for me, I always had anemptiness.
I felt like I needed an olderman in my life.
And I found some great mentorsthroughout the years that didn't
do abusive things to me andpoured into my life and so many
(19:06):
times when someone's been on ajourney, we can either learn the
hard way.
I felt like I had to learn thehard way, and I'll tell you
about my mom.
My mom was against counseling.
I think my journey could havebeen faster if I had gotten
counseling but she was totallyagainst it.
So I had to learn a lot of thesethings the hard way.
(19:27):
So why learn the hard way?
And it wasn't until I was 50years old that I really felt
like I was who I was meant to beand finally got there.
But it could have happened alot sooner, and so I'm hoping
that with this course, peoplecan start their own journey and
get to mile 997 sooner than Idid, because if you got some
(19:49):
speed behind you, it's going tobe faster.
I felt like my journey was acrawl and a walk for that, for
that duration, but we we thetimes do change, because I had a
one of the great things aboutworking with middle schoolers
they always have great comebacksfor you.
There's never a day that isuninteresting, I love working
(20:10):
with middle school students.
And so one of them said when Isaid about, I said well, I've
been your age, but you've neverbeen my age.
He came back with, yeah, butyou've never been my age in this
year and I was like, okay, youhave a point.
But the temptations weresimilar, sometimes different.
So we didn't have a phone wecould carry with us all the time
(20:33):
.
But the phone was a big dealbetween my mom and me if she
thought I was spending too muchon the landline phone, so things
are just different.
Me if she thought I wasspending too much on the
landline phone, so things arejust different.
Now we have 20 different kindsof media, but when I was a kid
it was you could end up watchingtoo much TV if you weren't
careful.
I do have to say the advantagethat that I had as a kid.
(20:54):
That is more difficult today.
I was bullied.
In middle school, at least whenI went home, I had about 12
hours of relief from bullying.
Now, in this day and age, withcell phones and social media, I
think the bullying never stops.
Fatima Bey (21:13):
And so.
James Divine (21:13):
I feel bad for the young people who are being
bullied, who never get a breakfrom it, because then it
continues on with the socialmedia.
That that is one thing, that'sdifferent.
But I've been your age andyou've never been my age.
Fatima Bey (21:28):
I like that.
I like that response.
You've never been my age, but,yes, my.
My point in you know, askingthat in a humorous way is this
is relevant to all of us.
It doesn't matter what your ageis.
To all of us, it doesn't matterwhat your age is, it doesn't
matter if you're 12 or 58 or 82.
(21:49):
The unforgiveness still hurtsus.
It is like acid to our souls.
If you put certain kinds ofacid on your skin, it will eat
through your skin and eventuallyit can kill you because it eats
through your skin.
Unforgiveness is acid to oursouls and it hurts us because
now we're running around withthis sore, this burning within
(22:11):
us, when we could be free to doother things and grow instead,
but we're holding on to thisunforgiveness and unforgiveness,
as you know, turns intobitterness eventually.
Unforgiveness starts off asunforgiveness, but it branches
off into other things as itgrows, its roots deeper and
deeper into our souls, right.
James Divine (22:31):
Right, right, right, right.
I had a professor in my.
I went back for my master'sdegree when I was a little bit
older and I had a professor whohe was the nicest guy but he
hated doctors.
He was probably in his midsixties, early sixties, still
fairly young, but he got sickand for about two weeks he
missed work.
(22:51):
And they said he never missedwork Like but, and so all his
coworkers were like you need togo see the doctor and it turned
out he had cancer all throughouthis body.
So when he finally did go seethe doctor, he only had about
two weeks left and then hepassed away and very quickly and
very suddenly.
And so that that um, I like theexample of the acid um, but I
(23:15):
also think of it as a cancer too.
If we let that bitterness grow.
it might look on the outsidelike everything's fine it looks
like we're doing okay, but thatcancer is on the inside, eating
us away and it's going to killus if we're not careful.
My mom was the most guiltyabout not forgiving.
She just kind of pulled herbootstraps up.
(23:36):
She raised her kids, she madeit through life.
She was a single mom Most ofthe time I was growing up after
after she did finally leave mydad and and then she never got
help.
Because she's like I.
Just all I need is God andthere's a grain of truth in that
.
But God put us with otherpeople, because other people can
help us.
(23:56):
It's sort of like when I'mteaching kids music, some of
them will say well, I can justlook on YouTube and learn some
things, yeah, but having ateacher right next to you?
teaching you some things isimportant as well.
And so my mom.
Here I am, I'm 58.
(24:21):
I try to move about eight milesa day, either walking or
running.
I lift weights, I hike, I'm outand active and I feel like I'm
in the best health of my life.
When my mom was in her earlyfifties, she already was acting
like an old lady because thisbitterness just was consuming
her and she would sit in herapartment and pretty much do
nothing all day.
And if you tried to get her,even if you like, she moved out
(24:43):
close to us at one point and wewould say hey, mom, we're going
to lunch, you want to join us?
No, I don't like that food.
Say, hey, mom, we're going tolunch, um, you want to join us?
No, I don't like that food.
Um, and so she just was like,had this life that she um made?
That was very kind of boring,uh, but she didn't really
involve herself with otherpeople and surprisingly, she
(25:04):
lived to be 77, um, which wewere all surprised about because
we didn't think she would makeit to 60 because her health was
so poor all the time from herearly fifties.
And I think what happened in myopinion, that unforgiveness and
bitterness within her grew likea cancer and just she had pains
(25:25):
all over her body and I believeit was from this unforgiveness
that it was happening to her.
Fatima Bey (25:31):
You are a thousand percent right.
Unforgiveness has physicaleffects on us and that
bitterness has physical effectson us.
It hurts our legs, it makes ourheart work harder.
It does things to just so manydifferent parts.
I'm not a doctor, but I thinky'all get the point.
It really has physical effects.
So when people how long doesthis course take?
(25:53):
That you have.
James Divine (25:54):
I think it's really.
It's really self-paced.
I never really thought abouthow long it would take, but
there's probably about 12lessons and they're all fairly
short, so someone could probablybe done with the whole course
in about two hours.
But the best thing is probablyto do one lesson at a time and
give it a couple of days to sinkin.
(26:15):
Or they could do it in twohours and then go back and and
repeat some of the lessons toreally do do some deep work.
It comes with video instructionand then there's also a PDF
that you can download that somepeople find healing by doing
some writing.
So I think there's some promptsto do some writing.
Some people don't like doingthat and that that's okay.
(26:36):
Use it whatever way works bestfor you.
Fatima Bey (26:39):
Can you give us an example of one of the steps
that's in the book or in thecourse?
Rather Sorry.
James Divine (26:44):
So one of the the one of the steps is going to be
to actually decide that you'regoing to forgive and once you
make that decision, that'susually the first step, but then
(27:04):
the other steps just talk about.
Some of the false assumptionsare about forgiveness and what
to do when you encounterdifferent things and definitely
encouraging people to seek outcounseling as well, depending on
what the forgiveness thatyou're trying to seek involves.
(27:24):
But I have like six or eight ofthe things where it talks about
forgiveness is not like wetalked about earlier.
Forgiveness is not excusing,Forgiveness is not
reconciliation.
I think those are a lot ofmisconceptions that people have.
Fatima Bey (27:40):
One of the other biggest misconceptions we
haven't mentioned yet is isforgiveness a feeling?
Do you need to feel it first?
James Divine (27:48):
No, no feeling.
Do you need to feel it first?
No, no, we're the are one ofthe.
The drawbacks of our modernsociety is we've gone too much
to the feelings.
We we tend to swing back andforth.
If you look at the world war iigeneration, they were not about
feelings at all and that was.
That was too far on one side.
And now everything is aboutfeelings today for many people.
(28:12):
And somewhere in the middle isthe right response.
But if we wait till we feelforgiveness, we're not going to
do it.
We have to make the decisionand we have to, and it's not
oftentimes it's not a one anddone it's, I need to forgive.
And then the thoughts come back, or anger comes back, or the,
the murderous thoughts, like Ihad come back and it's like no,
(28:33):
I already forgave, that.
I'm not going to follow myfeelings in this, because it's
not the.
Our feelings are good, they'regiven to us by god, but they're
not.
We can't use that as our soulrationale.
We want to use the rationalside of our brain and the
feeling side of our brain andhave them come together in the
(28:54):
in the middle.
Fatima Bey (28:55):
Right, it's a decision first and the feelings
will follow.
James Divine (28:58):
Yeah.
Fatima Bey (28:59):
And not the other way around?
James Divine (29:00):
Right, right, and it's sort of like with the.
This is maybe a silly example,but like I don't particularly
enjoy exercising, so if I waiteduntil I felt like exercising I
would never do it.
I just make it my habit.
I'm going to go do it because Iknow it will make me feel
better later the.
To go back to the cancerexample too if you were to go to
(29:22):
the doctor today and you foundout you had massive cancer
throughout your body and he'slike we're scheduling you for
surgery tomorrow, there's goingto be pain involved because that
cancer has grown.
And when they're cutting outthat cancer and stitching you
back up.
There's going to be paininvolved, but the reason why
people go through that pain isbecause they know on the other
side their body is going to bemore healthy, and so even
(29:46):
spiritually it can be that way.
If we've let a cancer grow inus, it's going to be painful
when it gets cut out and removed, but then the healing is going
to begin and we'll get better asthat wound improves.
Fatima Bey (30:00):
I think that those are both really excellent
analogies and I do think theexercise was a good analogy too.
I love the cancer analogybecause I think that's something
all of us can really relate toand really kind of get the
concept, and you're a hundredpercent right on that.
So how can people find thiscourse and how much is it?
James Divine (30:21):
So it's absolutely free, and I know you're going
to put a link in your show notes, but people can also go to
jamesdivinenet and you'll findit there in the store, as well
as a story, a book about myjourney called Sad Boy, joyful
man, and that book also isabsolutely free on that page.
Fatima Bey (30:43):
So for all of you listening right now, audience, I
don't care what your age is.
If you know that you need toforgive someone for something
heinous that was done to you ordone to a loved one, you know
that you need to forgive and youknow that what we're saying is
true.
You just don't know how to doit.
That's what this is for.
So James has taken the time toput together something for you
(31:06):
to just to guide you in thatprocess.
The book isn't not the book.
The course is not going to doit for you you still have to do
it yourself but it's just toguide you so that you can arrive
at the freedom of getting overit instead of staying under it.
Yep, yes, Well, James, thankyou so much for coming on again
today.
(31:26):
I've been wanting to talk aboutthis topic for a while, so I'm
glad that we can do more thanjust talk about the topic, but
we can actually offer themsomething that they can put in
their hands to actually solve it.
So I thank you again forcreating that and coming on here
again today.
James Divine (31:44):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Fatima Bey (31:46):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And now for a mind shiftingmoment, I want to go back and
emphasize something that wassaid earlier in the episode
Forgiveness is a choice, not afeeling.
It's so easy to stick on tothose feelings, to hold on to
(32:10):
those feelings of anger, of hurt, and they are.
Those feelings are legitimate.
However, it is a choice to letthem go.
Forgiveness is not a feeling,it's a choice.
The feelings will follow thechoice and, as he said earlier,
(32:32):
it's a daily choice.
It's multiple choices, one stepat a time.
It's a choice.
When you let go, you'rechoosing to not embitter
yourself, you're choosing not tolet the cancer run through you.
So make a choice.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to follow or subscribeto MindShift Power Podcast on
(32:56):
any of our worldwide platformsso you too can be a part of the
conversation that's changingyoung lives everywhere.
And always remember there'spower in shifting your thinking.
Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the only
international podcast focused onteens, connecting young voices
and perspectives from around theworld.
Get ready to explore the issuesthat matter to today's youth
and shape tomorrow's world.
I'm your host, fatima Bey theMindShifter, and welcome
(00:24):
everyone.
Today we have with us areturned guest, james Devine.
He is out of Colorado.
He is a speaker, middle schoolteacher, musician and podcaster.
Today we're here because he'salso an author and we're going
to talk about forgiveness.
So how are you doing today,james?
James Divine (00:41):
I'm doing well.
Thank you for having me on.
Fatima Bey (00:43):
Thank you for coming on again.
So, as you know, I like to diveright in.
So tell us, why are you heretoday?
James Divine (00:55):
I am here today because I want to share a little
bit about my journey.
So the quick nutshell of it isfrom the ages of six to about
nine, I was molested by a friendof the family Molested is
actually too nice of a word.
I was raped by him repeatedlyover course of those several
years and then he moved away andI thought, okay, now the
healing starts.
I was just a little kid, Ididn't tell anybody about it,
but what I found was that thishatred grew within me until by
(01:16):
the time I was 16, I wanted tokill him and I also realized
because my faith was importantto me, that I needed to forgive
him and but I didn't know how todo that.
So I did finally, at the age of16, take that first step of
forgiveness and that began myhealing journey at that point.
But really that decision toforgive is really just a first
(01:39):
step.
So over the years I've kind ofdeveloped through talking to
people and through my ownjourney.
I ended up finally developing acourse that takes people
through the many steps that I'vetaken throughout my life to
forgive.
Fatima Bey (01:53):
I think it's really awesome that you are taking your
pain and turning it intosomeone else's treasure.
That is a beautiful thing thatI respect a lot.
Tell us, why do we need toforgive?
James Divine (02:05):
You know, if we don't forgive, you can see how
it affected me emotionally, withwhere I wanted to kill this guy
, and I'm actually thankful hemoved away, because I think I
could have accomplished that ifthe abuse had continued and I
had access to him.
And where would my life be nowif I had done that?
I'd be in jail, probably, Iwouldn't have got to marry my
(02:26):
wife, I wouldn't have fourbeautiful kids.
Grandbaby number 11 is on theway now.
So the reason we need toforgive is because unforgiveness
affects us emotionally,financially, believe it or not,
physically and spiritually andI'll talk about maybe one of the
physical things a little bitlater but it can affect every
(02:46):
aspect of our lives.
Fatima Bey (02:48):
How can it affect us financially?
Explain that.
James Divine (02:50):
So for me, I really struggled with my worth
for many years.
And so if someone said so, I'ma musician, for example, and if
someone said, well, you want tocome play for us and we'll pay
you 20 bucks, there was a time Iused to say yes, and I would
kind of resent it because it'slike I just played for three
hours for 20 bucks, but that'sprobably all I'm worth.
(03:12):
I didn't say this out loud, butit was what was in my brain,
and so that's when I was youngerit affected me.
My mom was the same way.
She went through a lot of thesame abuse and in the 80s
minimum wage was $5 an hour andmy mom was really great at
cleaning and she worked for thisrestaurant that seated you
(03:32):
could seat like 70 people, ifyou just kind of picture that in
your head but she could cleanit in an hour and so the guy
paid her $5.
She clocked in and cleaned itand she worked really fast but
she thought, well, that's allI'm worth.
And I remember telling her atone point I said, mom, someone
who had a cleaning business,they would at that time I mean
prices are higher now, but atthe time they would have said
(03:55):
$50, $75 to clean thisrestaurant.
She was doing it for five.
So we just value ourselves lessbecause we think of ourselves
less when we are stillstruggling with that
unforgiveness.
Fatima Bey (04:08):
That's pretty deep and you're right.
You're absolutely right.
When we value ourselves as less, it affects our finances, it
affects entrepreneurship, itaffects whether or not we go to
college.
You know, pursue.
It affects what we pursue,basically, and also what we
accept, which is why many, many,many, many, many many youth who
(04:33):
are sexually assaulted whenthey're younger, or regularly
molested, end up beingpromiscuous or do, or end up
with people that abuse them indifferent ways.
It all boils down to self-worth, and that's not the only aspect
of anything, but that's a bigpart of it.
So you're absolutely right,most people wouldn't think about
how it affects them financially.
(04:54):
So what did you say with theother areas?
James Divine (04:56):
There's financing and Spiritually, physically,
financially, emotionally,basically every area of our
lives in some way it affects itdifferently.
Fatima Bey (05:07):
So can you break down why that's true and how
that's true?
James Divine (05:11):
I think the self-esteem aspect of it is
probably the biggest thing.
The shame that is a big part ofit too.
It just knocks us on the groundand we just don't think we're
worth it.
And then when you internalizethings so maybe I'll step
through each of these things Ifyou internalize unforgiveness
and you have hatred towardssomeone, it affects your
(05:34):
physical body, your physicalhealth and hold you back.
It holds you back in every area,just like what you were saying
with with whether you go tocollege, or what college you
think you could go to, or whatcareer you can, you can aspire
to, even how you presentyourself when you're meeting
other people and going forinterviews.
I've been on interviewcommittees before and you have
(05:56):
someone come in and they're likeyou know, I just I hope I get
this job and and you feel sorryfor them.
But you wonder, like what havethey been through?
Because they're not coming inwith confidence.
Then you have people who comein with arrogance too, and
that's bad as well, but you cansee the people who've been hurt.
Fatima Bey (06:17):
So when it comes to unforgiveness now in your case,
it was sexual molestation,correct.
Now in your case, it was sexualmolestation Correct Repeated,
continuous sexual molestationthat was the root of your anger,
that you needed to release andlet go of.
But does it have the sameeffect if you're unforgiving of
someone who?
(06:38):
Unforgiving of your father whoused to beat your mother, for
example?
James Divine (06:42):
I think it could be the same and that's also part
of my story.
My father was abusive to my momand I think that actually
contributed to me being moreeasily molested by this guy,
because I already started withlow self-esteem.
So those things can keep goingon and, as you know that we see,
we see young people whocontinue to almost like they're
(07:06):
drawn to abusive people, butit's it's to try to satisfy some
kind of need and I'm notputting any blame.
Please don't anyone think thatthe blame is on the young person
.
It took me a long time torealize.
I was a little boy.
I had no control over how thisadult was acting in my life.
He was the one 100% guilty, butwhen I was younger I felt like
(07:31):
it was my fault and I felt a lotof shame with what had happened
and thought that it was due tome have effects that continue on
to um.
For, for example, if someonehad a father in their home who
was abusive, then they may go onand be married to someone who
(07:51):
abuses them and they thinkthat's okay because then, my
sister went through that.
Fatima Bey (07:56):
She went.
James Divine (07:56):
We were so surprised when she she finally
left her husband and she told usabout the abuse and we were
thinking, why didn't you tell us?
And she said she felt like shedeserved it.
And we were like, no, you'renot, you're a child of God, you
don't deserve any of that.
But that's what she felt likebecause she had seen it in my
father.
Fatima Bey (08:16):
And you are.
You hit the nail on the headwhen you said that.
I mean, I seem to come on thissubject a lot here, you know, on
this podcast, because it's sorelevant to humans.
But it's more.
To me it's important that thismessage gets across to the youth
because they can stop somemessed up stuff that us adults
(08:37):
are still dealing with, if theydeal with it now.
So when it comes tounforgiveness, take us through.
So you have a course and yourcourse is about unforgiveness.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that course and what it's
called?
James Divine (08:52):
Sure, it's just called.
Forgive and Live Workshop iswhat the course is called, and
it takes people through a lot ofthe same steps that I've been
through myself, and I'm justgoing to cover a couple of them,
of the same steps that I'vebeen through myself, and I'm
just going to cover a couple ofthem.
For example, sometimes peoplethink, oh, I forgave, so now
(09:13):
everything's good.
That's how my mom looked atthings.
My mom stayed with my father,probably too long, and she just
accepted it.
Well, I forgive him.
I forgive him, and then hewould be abusive again.
Well, I forgive him, okay.
Well, now further consequencesneed to be taken.
Even when I told my mom at age16 about the abuse that had
happened to me, she still had away to be in touch with, to have
(09:37):
the police find this man, butshe gave up too easily and I had
to actually forgive my mom.
So one of the things that Italk about is forgiveness does
not mean excusing someone.
For example forgiveness does notmean excusing someone, and so
what I mean by that isforgiveness.
(09:57):
So, for example, the man whoabused me his name is George I
can forgive him and still pursueall the criminal penalties he
deserved.
Unfortunately, I didn't do thatthis was so long ago and plus I
kind of went with what my momwas doing, and he's probably
passed now.
(10:17):
So you can forgive someone andhave them face the consequences
of what they've done.
So, for example, if someonemurdered someone in your family,
they should go to jail.
Even if you forgive them, evenif they receive 100% forgiveness
, they still need to be in jailfor what they did.
If someone abuses a kid, theystill need to be in jail.
(10:39):
We can all forgive them, but itdoesn't mean we excuse them and
pass it off.
I mean the small things in lifewe are going to.
So if someone snubbed us and itmade us feel bad, that's
something we need to forgive andmove forward from.
But if someone did somethingwhere they deserve some kind of
punishment through the criminalsystem, then that's something
(11:01):
that we should do.
Fatima Bey (11:02):
Absolutely.
Forgiveness does not mean thatyou forget or that there
shouldn't be any consequences,because if there's no
consequences, what are we doing?
Right?
James Divine (11:10):
And forgiveness.
Here's another important onefrom the course.
Forgiveness does not alwaysmean reconciliation.
So you know, as we havesiblings and we have friends,
sometimes we have disagreementswith them and you always want to
try to reconcile with thosesmall things and become friends
again.
Fatima Bey (11:29):
What does reconcile mean?
James Divine (11:30):
So reconcile is when the relationship is
restored to what it was before.
Fatima Bey (11:36):
So you're saying, just because we forgive them, we
don't necessarily have torestore a relationship?
James Divine (11:39):
Correct.
Correct Especially when theoffense is so grievous that like
molesting a child or spousalabuse.
So if you had a spouse, forexample, who abused you, you
could forgive them.
They could face theconsequences in jail for what
they did.
But it doesn't mean when theyget out of jail that you have to
(12:00):
remain married.
That would be reconciliation.
Sometimes that happens, but inmany cases it's not.
In the the example I like togive is around 2005 or whenever
it was that Facebook startedbecoming a thing.
Um, I connected with thedaughter of the man who had
abused me and and we hadn't seenher in 20, 25 years.
(12:26):
So I noticed in her friendslist that her dad was in there.
It looked like he was sittingin a halfway house type of place
and all of a sudden, all thesethings that for years I hadn't
even thought about him hadn'tgiven him any consideration.
I thought, well, what if hesees that I'm friends with his
daughter?
What if he asked me to be aFacebook friend?
(12:46):
What if he showed up at my doorand said hey, you know, I, I I
just want to tell you I'm sorryfor what I did.
None of those things ended uphappening, but I started going
through it in my head.
And it's like if he should,first of all the Facebook friend
.
That would have been easy.
I would have denied it.
That never happened, though,but if he showed up at my door I
would say I forgive you now getthe hell off my porch, I don't
(13:12):
need to be reconciled to him.
Fatima Bey (13:14):
Right, no, you're that's.
That's a good example.
So what does forgivenessactually mean then?
James Divine (13:19):
Forgiveness means we we are putting what happened
to us in the past.
We're doing our best to not letit affect us today, and
sometimes we have to make thatdecision to forgive again and
again, and again, becausedifferent things come up in
different points of our lives.
So the example for me at theage of 16, I decided to forgive
(13:41):
George, and that was step one ona 1000 mile journey of healing
that now, at age 58, I'm stillon that journey, but now I'm on
about mile 997.
So it's like I could see theend now.
But when I took that first step, I couldn't see the end.
And as different thingshappened in my life, different
(14:03):
remembrances came up that I hadto forgive again for.
And what I mean is like when myfirstborn son, when he turned
five.
I'm looking at thisfive-year-old boy and thinking
how could someone abuse afive-year-old boy?
He's small, he's just a kid,and so it brought back all these
(14:23):
feelings and thoughts and I hadto forgive again.
And then, when I was an adultand I realized my mom did not do
all the things that she couldhave, I had to actually forgive
my mom because I think that shecould have prevented some of
this from happening, like shedidn't listen to me, and I'll
get.
I'll give you a clear exampleof that.
(14:45):
The very last time that Georgeabused me, he showed up at our
church.
I hadn't seen him for about sixmonths.
He showed up at our church andhe was asking my mom People used
to call me Jimmy when I was akid.
He asked my mom hey, can Jimmycome over to my place today and
I'll bring him back tonight?
And um, I was saying no, no, no, I don't want to go.
(15:08):
And my mom was, um, like,encouraged me.
She's like oh, come on, jimmy,go ahead and go, you'll have a
good time.
And, um, and he'll bring youback tonight.
And I didn't really want to go,but George whispered in my ear
and he's like oh, don't worry,nothing will happen.
Well, something happened, andthat was the last time, cause he
moved away after that, but Ihad to actually forgive my mom
(15:30):
for that but, I didn't realizeit.
I didn't realize it as the eightyear old boy, but I realized it
as, like the 38 year old man.
It's like why didn't, why didmy mom do that?
A 38 year old man, it's likewhy didn't, why did my mom do
that?
And I was crying over it.
And even now I can feel theemotion coming up.
Sorry, I can feel some of thatemotion coming up, anger at my
mom for pushing me towards thatthat day.
(15:53):
I mean, she didn't know so, butI still had to forgive her
because she wasn't listening toher little boy saying no, no, I
don't want to go.
Fatima Bey (16:01):
Yeah, yeah and I've said this on episodes before,
but I'm going to say it againFor parents who are out there
listening sometimes children arejust acting up because they
don't want to go to the housewhere they don't get lollipops.
Sometimes that's the case, butwhen your child is adamantly
seriously objecting going withor being near someone, there's
(16:25):
always a reason and you reallyshould look into that.
James Divine (16:28):
Yes, yes, there was one church we had attended
and we only had gone there onetime, and when we went to go the
second time and we brought mydaughter to the nursery, she
started like fighting us.
She was like about three yearsold.
She started crying and fightingus and this wasn't usual
behavior for her.
(16:48):
She wasn't usually afraid to goto some place like that, and so
we ended up not going there andwe couldn't pinpoint whether
any I mean it could have beensomething like a kid slapped her
, you know who anotherthree-year-old or three-year-old
bumped into her, but we didn'twant to take any chances, so we
never went back to that.
Fatima Bey (17:08):
And that's a good idea, because there's always
clues.
Sometimes we don't know whatwe're looking at, but that's
something that for anyonelistening right now, you don't
have to be a parent.
You could be just a parentadjacent listening right now,
you don't have to be a parent,you could be just a parent
adjacent.
You can just have kids aroundyou, that you see.
(17:30):
If a child is looking thatfearful of going with or near
someone, there's always a reason, and it's not always sexual
molestation, but it can besomething just as bad.
You should always investigate.
We have to pay attention to ourkids and their responses.
So, with forgiveness, tell us,you have this course.
What else is in this course?
Well, first of all, let me askyou this this podcast is focused
(17:54):
on teens and anything that hasto do with them in the future.
You're 58 years old, you're anold man.
Why are you on here talking toteens?
The future.
James Divine (18:03):
You 58 years old, you old man, why are you on here
?
Well, I've been where you're at.
So I, when I tell even mystudents that I teach, I still
teach middle school students,and then I have some private
lesson students all the way fromlike third grade up to high
school.
So I get a lot, and mygrandkids go from 13 down to one
(18:24):
.
My oldest is 13 years old.
So what I tell students all thetime?
I tell them I've been whereyou're at, so I've been your age
, I've been through some of thesame things, but you haven't
been my age yet.
So we can we can learn from thepeople who are older than us.
In fact, one of the things Ithink that saved me besides my
(18:44):
faith and starting thatforgiveness journey is I always
found for me, I always had anemptiness.
I felt like I needed an olderman in my life.
And I found some great mentorsthroughout the years that didn't
do abusive things to me andpoured into my life and so many
(19:06):
times when someone's been on ajourney, we can either learn the
hard way.
I felt like I had to learn thehard way, and I'll tell you
about my mom.
My mom was against counseling.
I think my journey could havebeen faster if I had gotten
counseling but she was totallyagainst it.
So I had to learn a lot of thesethings the hard way.
(19:27):
So why learn the hard way?
And it wasn't until I was 50years old that I really felt
like I was who I was meant to beand finally got there.
But it could have happened alot sooner, and so I'm hoping
that with this course, peoplecan start their own journey and
get to mile 997 sooner than Idid, because if you got some
(19:49):
speed behind you, it's going tobe faster.
I felt like my journey was acrawl and a walk for that, for
that duration, but we we thetimes do change, because I had a
one of the great things aboutworking with middle schoolers
they always have great comebacksfor you.
There's never a day that isuninteresting, I love working
(20:10):
with middle school students.
And so one of them said when Isaid about, I said well, I've
been your age, but you've neverbeen my age.
He came back with, yeah, butyou've never been my age in this
year and I was like, okay, youhave a point.
But the temptations weresimilar, sometimes different.
So we didn't have a phone wecould carry with us all the time
(20:33):
.
But the phone was a big dealbetween my mom and me if she
thought I was spending too muchon the landline phone, so things
are just different.
Me if she thought I wasspending too much on the
landline phone, so things arejust different.
Now we have 20 different kindsof media, but when I was a kid
it was you could end up watchingtoo much TV if you weren't
careful.
I do have to say the advantagethat that I had as a kid.
(20:54):
That is more difficult today.
I was bullied.
In middle school, at least whenI went home, I had about 12
hours of relief from bullying.
Now, in this day and age, withcell phones and social media, I
think the bullying never stops.
Fatima Bey (21:13):
And so.
James Divine (21:13):
I feel bad for the young people who are being
bullied, who never get a breakfrom it, because then it
continues on with the socialmedia.
That that is one thing, that'sdifferent.
But I've been your age andyou've never been my age.
Fatima Bey (21:28):
I like that.
I like that response.
You've never been my age, but,yes, my.
My point in you know, askingthat in a humorous way is this
is relevant to all of us.
It doesn't matter what your ageis.
To all of us, it doesn't matterwhat your age is, it doesn't
matter if you're 12 or 58 or 82.
(21:49):
The unforgiveness still hurtsus.
It is like acid to our souls.
If you put certain kinds ofacid on your skin, it will eat
through your skin and eventuallyit can kill you because it eats
through your skin.
Unforgiveness is acid to oursouls and it hurts us because
now we're running around withthis sore, this burning within
(22:11):
us, when we could be free to doother things and grow instead,
but we're holding on to thisunforgiveness and unforgiveness,
as you know, turns intobitterness eventually.
Unforgiveness starts off asunforgiveness, but it branches
off into other things as itgrows, its roots deeper and
deeper into our souls, right.
James Divine (22:31):
Right, right, right, right.
I had a professor in my.
I went back for my master'sdegree when I was a little bit
older and I had a professor whohe was the nicest guy but he
hated doctors.
He was probably in his midsixties, early sixties, still
fairly young, but he got sickand for about two weeks he
missed work.
(22:51):
And they said he never missedwork Like but, and so all his
coworkers were like you need togo see the doctor and it turned
out he had cancer all throughouthis body.
So when he finally did go seethe doctor, he only had about
two weeks left and then hepassed away and very quickly and
very suddenly.
And so that that um, I like theexample of the acid um, but I
(23:15):
also think of it as a cancer too.
If we let that bitterness grow.
it might look on the outsidelike everything's fine it looks
like we're doing okay, but thatcancer is on the inside, eating
us away and it's going to killus if we're not careful.
My mom was the most guiltyabout not forgiving.
She just kind of pulled herbootstraps up.
(23:36):
She raised her kids, she madeit through life.
She was a single mom Most ofthe time I was growing up after
after she did finally leave mydad and and then she never got
help.
Because she's like I.
Just all I need is God andthere's a grain of truth in that
.
But God put us with otherpeople, because other people can
help us.
(23:56):
It's sort of like when I'mteaching kids music, some of
them will say well, I can justlook on YouTube and learn some
things, yeah, but having ateacher right next to you?
teaching you some things isimportant as well.
And so my mom.
Here I am, I'm 58.
(24:21):
I try to move about eight milesa day, either walking or
running.
I lift weights, I hike, I'm outand active and I feel like I'm
in the best health of my life.
When my mom was in her earlyfifties, she already was acting
like an old lady because thisbitterness just was consuming
her and she would sit in herapartment and pretty much do
nothing all day.
And if you tried to get her,even if you like, she moved out
(24:43):
close to us at one point and wewould say hey, mom, we're going
to lunch, you want to join us?
No, I don't like that food.
Say, hey, mom, we're going tolunch, um, you want to join us?
No, I don't like that food.
Um, and so she just was like,had this life that she um made?
That was very kind of boring,uh, but she didn't really
involve herself with otherpeople and surprisingly, she
(25:04):
lived to be 77, um, which wewere all surprised about because
we didn't think she would makeit to 60 because her health was
so poor all the time from herearly fifties.
And I think what happened in myopinion, that unforgiveness and
bitterness within her grew likea cancer and just she had pains
(25:25):
all over her body and I believeit was from this unforgiveness
that it was happening to her.
Fatima Bey (25:31):
You are a thousand percent right.
Unforgiveness has physicaleffects on us and that
bitterness has physical effectson us.
It hurts our legs, it makes ourheart work harder.
It does things to just so manydifferent parts.
I'm not a doctor, but I thinky'all get the point.
It really has physical effects.
So when people how long doesthis course take?
(25:53):
That you have.
James Divine (25:54):
I think it's really.
It's really self-paced.
I never really thought abouthow long it would take, but
there's probably about 12lessons and they're all fairly
short, so someone could probablybe done with the whole course
in about two hours.
But the best thing is probablyto do one lesson at a time and
give it a couple of days to sinkin.
(26:15):
Or they could do it in twohours and then go back and and
repeat some of the lessons toreally do do some deep work.
It comes with video instructionand then there's also a PDF
that you can download that somepeople find healing by doing
some writing.
So I think there's some promptsto do some writing.
Some people don't like doingthat and that that's okay.
(26:36):
Use it whatever way works bestfor you.
Fatima Bey (26:39):
Can you give us an example of one of the steps
that's in the book or in thecourse?
Rather Sorry.
James Divine (26:44):
So one of the the one of the steps is going to be
to actually decide that you'regoing to forgive and once you
make that decision, that'susually the first step, but then
(27:04):
the other steps just talk about.
Some of the false assumptionsare about forgiveness and what
to do when you encounterdifferent things and definitely
encouraging people to seek outcounseling as well, depending on
what the forgiveness thatyou're trying to seek involves.
(27:24):
But I have like six or eight ofthe things where it talks about
forgiveness is not like wetalked about earlier.
Forgiveness is not excusing,Forgiveness is not
reconciliation.
I think those are a lot ofmisconceptions that people have.
Fatima Bey (27:40):
One of the other biggest misconceptions we
haven't mentioned yet is isforgiveness a feeling?
Do you need to feel it first?
James Divine (27:48):
No, no feeling.
Do you need to feel it first?
No, no, we're the are one ofthe.
The drawbacks of our modernsociety is we've gone too much
to the feelings.
We we tend to swing back andforth.
If you look at the world war iigeneration, they were not about
feelings at all and that was.
That was too far on one side.
And now everything is aboutfeelings today for many people.
(28:12):
And somewhere in the middle isthe right response.
But if we wait till we feelforgiveness, we're not going to
do it.
We have to make the decisionand we have to, and it's not
oftentimes it's not a one anddone it's, I need to forgive.
And then the thoughts come back, or anger comes back, or the,
the murderous thoughts, like Ihad come back and it's like no,
(28:33):
I already forgave, that.
I'm not going to follow myfeelings in this, because it's
not the.
Our feelings are good, they'regiven to us by god, but they're
not.
We can't use that as our soulrationale.
We want to use the rationalside of our brain and the
feeling side of our brain andhave them come together in the
(28:54):
in the middle.
Fatima Bey (28:55):
Right, it's a decision first and the feelings
will follow.
James Divine (28:58):
Yeah.
Fatima Bey (28:59):
And not the other way around?
James Divine (29:00):
Right, right, and it's sort of like with the.
This is maybe a silly example,but like I don't particularly
enjoy exercising, so if I waiteduntil I felt like exercising I
would never do it.
I just make it my habit.
I'm going to go do it because Iknow it will make me feel
better later the.
To go back to the cancerexample too if you were to go to
(29:22):
the doctor today and you foundout you had massive cancer
throughout your body and he'slike we're scheduling you for
surgery tomorrow, there's goingto be pain involved because that
cancer has grown.
And when they're cutting outthat cancer and stitching you
back up.
There's going to be paininvolved, but the reason why
people go through that pain isbecause they know on the other
side their body is going to bemore healthy, and so even
(29:46):
spiritually it can be that way.
If we've let a cancer grow inus, it's going to be painful
when it gets cut out and removed, but then the healing is going
to begin and we'll get better asthat wound improves.
Fatima Bey (30:00):
I think that those are both really excellent
analogies and I do think theexercise was a good analogy too.
I love the cancer analogybecause I think that's something
all of us can really relate toand really kind of get the
concept, and you're a hundredpercent right on that.
So how can people find thiscourse and how much is it?
James Divine (30:21):
So it's absolutely free, and I know you're going
to put a link in your show notes, but people can also go to
jamesdivinenet and you'll findit there in the store, as well
as a story, a book about myjourney called Sad Boy, joyful
man, and that book also isabsolutely free on that page.
Fatima Bey (30:43):
So for all of you listening right now, audience, I
don't care what your age is.
If you know that you need toforgive someone for something
heinous that was done to you ordone to a loved one, you know
that you need to forgive and youknow that what we're saying is
true.
You just don't know how to doit.
That's what this is for.
So James has taken the time toput together something for you
(31:06):
to just to guide you in thatprocess.
The book isn't not the book.
The course is not going to doit for you you still have to do
it yourself but it's just toguide you so that you can arrive
at the freedom of getting overit instead of staying under it.
Yep, yes, Well, James, thankyou so much for coming on again
today.
(31:26):
I've been wanting to talk aboutthis topic for a while, so I'm
glad that we can do more thanjust talk about the topic, but
we can actually offer themsomething that they can put in
their hands to actually solve it.
So I thank you again forcreating that and coming on here
again today.
James Divine (31:44):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Fatima Bey (31:46):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And now for a mind shiftingmoment, I want to go back and
emphasize something that wassaid earlier in the episode
Forgiveness is a choice, not afeeling.
It's so easy to stick on tothose feelings, to hold on to
(32:10):
those feelings of anger, of hurt, and they are.
Those feelings are legitimate.
However, it is a choice to letthem go.
Forgiveness is not a feeling,it's a choice.
The feelings will follow thechoice and, as he said earlier,
(32:32):
it's a daily choice.
It's multiple choices, one stepat a time.
It's a choice.
When you let go, you'rechoosing to not embitter
yourself, you're choosing not tolet the cancer run through you.
So make a choice.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to follow or subscribeto MindShift Power Podcast on
(32:56):
any of our worldwide platformsso you too can be a part of the
conversation that's changingyoung lives everywhere.
And always remember there'spower in shifting your thinking.
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