February 20, 2025 • 44 mins
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GrowYourYouthMinistry.com *** In this episode, we will be discussing 5 common mistakes that youth pastors make which will sabotage their youth ministry. Are you guilty of any of these? Join us for a conversation filled with practical insights and real-world examples to energize your student ministry and inspire growth in your community.
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You may also enjoy these episodes:
(#230) 3 Highly Effective Leadership Styles for Youth Pastors...Which One Are You?
(#026) Increasing Your Value, Worth & Influence: Heart, Hunger, Hustle
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we're talking about five mistakes that youth
pastors make that sabotage theiryouth ministry.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Ministry Coach Podcast, where we
give you weekly tips andtactics to help you fast track
the growth and health of youryouth ministry.
If this is the first time we'remeeting, my name is Jeff
Laskola and this is.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Kristen Laskola, and today we are talking about five
mistakes youth pastors make tosabotage their ministry.
That is the topic, so I hopeyou're not doing any of these.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Otherwise you're in a lot of trouble all right, let's
jump in.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So number one a big mistake I see a lot of youth
pastors make is trying to forcetheir I guess you could say age
or stage of life on to thestudents, or wanting the
students to be in a differentstage of life than they are
actually in, kind of likewishing you were a different
(01:08):
pastor than you were, and that'sreally coming through on how
you talk to students.
What's your expectation of them, the types of things you plan,
and it's almost like you're justlike I will force you to be
young adults even though you'rehigh schoolers, or like I will
force you to be high schoolerseven though you're high
schoolers, or like I will forceyou to be high schoolers even
though you're junior hires.
Now don't get me wrong.
(01:29):
I am all for teaching slightlyabove age level, not
consistently, like every singlepoint, but sprinkling in things
that would challenge, like alongtime Christian or a really
mature student, or just like Inever want students to think.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I heard this story I already know what you're going
to say, tuning out, starting now.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Right, but saying something each time in your
messages that really challengedthem.
So don't get me wrong, I'm allfor that.
What I'm talking more about islike if you're a junior high
pastor but you are bringing morehigh school energy, and if
you're a junior high pastor butyou are bringing more high
school energy, and if you're ahigh school pastor, you're
bringing more young adult energy.
Because I think, looking at themotivation, sometimes I think
(02:16):
it makes the pastor feel I guessyou could say more validated to
think like, well, my kids arereal mature and it's because I'm
a real pastor, gosh, darn it.
And I think it's tied veryclosely to the pastor's ego of
like, well, I'm not just achildren's pastor, well, I'm not
(02:38):
just a junior high pastor, fillin the blank.
But if you set a vibe that'slike well, we only do acoustic,
slow songs that are veryreflective, you know, because I
want the students to just beserious, you know, to me I think
that's a huge mistake, becauseinstead of just meeting kids
(02:59):
where they're at and forming aministry that is set up for
where they're at in life, you'resort of wishing they were
someone or something elseinstead of bringing well, what
kind of music do you like?
What kind of worship do yourespond to?
What kind of events and games?
And that's another thing.
(03:20):
I think youth pastors thinkgames like a real pastor.
A real pastor wouldn't playgames this is time for Bible
time and and then like withinterest, to like what you're
interested in theologically.
As a 25, 30 year old, I hopeit's very different than what a
(03:43):
15 year old you know, and soit's not saying well, am I not
supposed to study theology then?
Of course not.
That will enhance your teaching.
However, if you are thinking,you know I made this mistake
when I went on my Israel tourback in 2015 and I learned
everything there was about thehistory of Israel and everything
(04:04):
made so much sense and how thisintersected with everything,
and it was like we're doing anIsrael series.
You're all going to learn whatI learned for the last 10 days.
Well, when they're not, theydidn't go to Israel.
It doesn't really translate.
And what does a 15 year oldreally care about?
You know?
So you have to find ways.
Let me bring that truth in.
(04:24):
When it intersects, naturally,with what we're talking about.
But just because I'm all geekedout on the 12 tribes of Israel
and I saw the Dead Sea, red Seaand everything in between, it's
like okay, not super interesting.
You know, like when that likelong running joke, like when
(04:45):
people go on vacation and thenthey show you their slideshow
and they're like and then lookat this and it was so cool
because they're reliving it, butyou're just like it's another
beach, cool, wow, anotherseashell, but it meant something
so much to them.
It just doesn't translate verywell.
And so I think, taking thatsentiment as a youth pastor,
(05:06):
what you're geeked out about, ifthat enhances an aspect of your
teaching, great.
However, just be very carefulto not want it to be a direct
transfer.
Keep in mind your age versustheir age, your development
versus their development, andthink like what do they need to
(05:29):
know?
What are they interested in now?
What makes sense for them totake the next step with their
relationship with Jesus?
So just be careful of overdoingthat.
And I think youth pastors makethis mistake of like well, I
want to go much deeper.
Therefore, my students want togo much deeper.
I don't think we should everwater anything down or make it
shallow, but what you study inyour free time is for you, like,
(05:56):
it might not be the best fitfor the 12 year old and your
youth ministry.
I think that was a really hardlesson for me to learn, because
so often we teach out of our ownpassions Like well, what is God
teaching me?
That's what I'm going to teachthem.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And what really impacted you clearly must impact
them too, right?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
And it doesn't always and sometimes it does, and you
could probably think, like ajunior high right now, of the
exception to that statement, youknow, and there are, but just
generally be careful of tryingto make something.
It's not.
I mean, I've heard some highschool students say that they
wish like their high schoolpastor would have more fun.
(06:39):
You know, and it's like notalways just so serious, but
sometimes high school pastorswish they were young adult
pastors.
So, they try to mimic that samething for high school and the
kids are like, yeah, but I'm 14.
I still want to run around alittle bit, and so you know your
group best and where you'reerring on this.
(07:02):
Maybe you're like whoa, I amdoing that.
Or maybe you're like, yeah,right, we're soing on this, you
know.
Maybe you're like whoa, I amdoing that.
Or maybe you're like, yeah,right, Like we're, we're so good
on this.
So for all of these, you'regoing to have to sort of grade
yourself.
Or maybe ask some of yourleaders like, hey, do you think
we're hitting content?
Wise energy, wise, fun games,events are all these screaming.
(07:23):
This is the age group we workwith?
Or if somebody were to walkinto the room, would they be
like, oh, how many 40 year oldsare you expecting today for this
Bible study?
Because this is very, veryadultish you know, so just don't
force them to grow up beforethey need to.
I think that repels studentsand sabotages your ministry over
(07:48):
time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, I think a good kind of analogy or visual to
kind of go with it is you'reconstantly wanting to lead your
students, but I feel like don'tlead them with a long rope or a
chain.
Lead them by holding their handand it's like wherever you're
going, they're not going to bemuch further behind, so you're
kind of taking them from wherethey're at one step at a time to
(08:09):
you know.
Get deeper in the word and be alittle bit more mature as a
Christian, but not to the pointwhere you're 30 yards ahead
tugging them with a rope.
It's like I'm not there Rightand I can't see the next step.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And they're not your peers, you know, like the, the
things you're geeked out on,take it to your own life group
or your own bible study or yourown small group, you know or can
you make those same impactfulmoments that you're having in
your study applicable to thatage group?
you.
You might be able to and I'vedone that many times like I've
taken some really incredible timkeller stuff and I'd be like,
(08:42):
oh my gosh, this is such aprofound thought.
I can chew this up, digest thisand give this poop it out and
junior hires love poop, so fullcircle, win, win.
But it like take that conceptand be like, oh, here's what I
can extract, and I'm not goingto tell them the whole iceberg,
(09:05):
but I'll give them like the tipof the iceberg to say, like this
is an incredible thought.
Let me unpack this for you.
So it is possible.
But I'm just saying, when itcomes to youth ministry, just
making sure you're not expectingkids to be your peer right you
theologically or energy wise oranything like that.
(09:27):
So most of the time we need tocome to them, you know All right
.
Number two another thing thatwill sabotage your youth
ministry is if you have terribleconflict management skills.
So how you deal with conflictand conflict is clearly not an
(09:48):
if but a when, whether it's witha student, a family, parents,
leaders, co-workers, whatever.
How you deal with conflict inministry, I think is tied to
some of your longevity inministry, meaning how do you
treat people when there is adifference of opinion, when
(10:11):
there's tension, when there's adisagreement on how something
should be done, like?
What are your steps forconflict resolution?
And I think this one I thinkpride shows up so hard in
conflict of like.
If you didn't think youstruggled with pride and then
(10:33):
you have to apologize or try notto speak badly about somebody.
I saw a quote the other daythat was saying whenever you try
to make someone else look bad,you just end up making yourself
look bad, and I think that's ahuge temptation of like.
Well, they did this.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And you know and everyone needs to know that.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, but it can really really backfire on you.
So there's some all unhealthyconflict is like avoiding it all
together.
I think some people are justscared of it.
Like oh no, like makes me souncomfortable, I don't want to
have hard conversations.
Maybe that's you, You're justan avoider.
Maybe, like we said, it's it'spride.
(11:17):
Maybe it's just the fear ofdealing with it head on because
you lack the skills.
You just don't even know whatto do next.
But I think this is where someyouth pastors get off the rails
If they cannot reconcile withpeople, smooth things over and
(11:37):
become stronger at the end of itthan they were at the beginning
, meaning like sometimes if youdo conflict really well, you are
closer to that person or createmore of a fan out of that
person than if you had neverbeen in the conflict to begin
with.
Like it gave you the chance toprove to them I'm on your team
(12:00):
even though we disagree, or Ihave your back or I'm not going
to speak badly of you.
One of the worst things is whenyou don't go to that person,
but you go above that person oraround that person.
I had a dad years ago get madat me for something that I
didn't even know had happened.
It was like in a car on the wayto a camp.
(12:22):
It was a like some thing, likea song that he didn't like that
was in the car.
I wasn't in that car, I had noclue and instead of just calling
me, he called like our highestsenior pastor of like every
campus.
And I'm like you could havegiven me first shot at that,
(12:43):
like I think I could havehandled that as an apology.
Like nobody died.
We didn't have to go straightfor you know the head honcho.
So whenever you deal withconflict with people, try to go
to them first If it's not somekind of outlandish, dangerous
situation.
You know there's obviouslyexceptions for everything, but
(13:03):
most of the time you can godirectly to that person and say
help me understand what justhappened.
Or what did you mean by this ordid you feel weird when we left
?
And if you notice, all of thosestart with a question.
I think conflict always goesbetter with a question like was
it just me or did we did thingsseem off when we were done
(13:28):
talking, or why are you sostupid?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
what is your deal, jeff?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
now, those are questions.
However, those are not thequestions we're looking for.
Okay, but I'm just spitballingglad you're here, so you're
learning and keep up the goodwork.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Okay, I will.
Yeah, gold star Yikes.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So, yeah, I think that can really put a cap on
your ministry if you just can'tdeal with conflict.
And then here's a really hardquestion to ask yourself, and
you don't have to answer outloud, just answering your own
brain does conflict follow you.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
We all know those people do they know themselves?
Never had a friendship workoutfor longer than you know, a year
or two.
Never had a boss that theyliked, or they're all I always
say if there's anybody you workwith and they say I'm the only
one who does any work aroundhere, I'm like, probably not
true and you're toxic.
Just saying, just saying Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So some hard truths today.
Some hard truths.
So if you're the kind of personnow odds are you are not like
the most unlucky person in theworld that every single person
you work with is out to get you.
Every single boss you had isout to get you.
Every parent hates you, Everyyou know like.
(14:54):
If, if you look back at yourlife or your ministry and you
just are like there's always aconflict, that might be a moment
to like.
Let's reflect and dig andexcavate this idea a little bit,
Because, in the words of TaylorSwift, could it be?
(15:14):
You are the problem, Me is theproblem.
It's me.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I am the problem.
It's me, because you could havea bad boss.
One for one, yeah, bummer.
For you it may be even two fortwo.
I almost feel like rule ofthree.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
if there's three, it's probably you well, and
there can be things you don'tlike about all three of them, of
course.
However, if it is constantlyblowing up to this, this
heightened level of drama,tension, toxicity, right, One of
us has to go.
It might be worth looking at.
(15:53):
How am I handling conflict?
Because every person I'veworked for I've had a
frustration and I'm sure they'vehad a frustration with me and
I've had a million good thingsto say about them and I hope
they've had a million goodthings to say about me.
It's like where are we gettingfixated?
And Chris Brown, our seniorpastor, said something so great
the other day.
He's like somewhere along theline we thought like maybe as
(16:19):
Americans I can't rememberexactly how we said it that like
it is unacceptable to beirritated, or it's like
unacceptable for something tofrustrate us.
Like, some things are justfrustrating and some people are
just irritating, and you as theleader, as the pastor, as the
Christian, as just the humanbeing, need to just know you
(16:43):
cannot eliminate allfrustrations and irritations.
The question is how do you movedespite those?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You know, are you still able to be civil and kind
and work together with peoplewho irritate you or that you
don't like or do?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
you just be married to them.
You've been married to me foralmost 15 years and I irritate
you on a daily basis.
So good for you for putting upwith me.
See, do like me, hide it well,no, push it deep, down, deep I
love you, but you know what Imean.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
It's like we can't just see irritations and
frustrations as oh my gosh, thisis unacceptable.
It it's like can you navigateit though?
Can you just put your head downand do the work?
Can you see the good in thatperson, too, and work alongside
them, even though they aren'tyour BFF, like you know, like
just?
I guess part of the thing, toois we need to sometimes grow a
(17:41):
thicker skin, for just like itdoes.
If you go to a new church, itwill still be there.
If you go to a new church, itwill still be there.
If you go to a new staff, it'llstill be there.
There will always be thatperson or people who just are
grading.
Yeah, but you can do it, you'llbe fine.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I know someone who had transferred churches
multiple times and I almost feltlike if I had recorded you
every single time I could haveplayed it back, and you're
saying the same thing for everystaff that you've worked on.
So it's like either all five orwhatever these churches are
like cookie cutters of theprevious one, or maybe you're
just seeing these same thingsand people and it's more of a
(18:19):
you thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I want a cookie.
Now you said cookie cutter.
I'm like, oh, that soundsreally good Yum, yum, yum, yum
yum.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Thanks for focusing.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I was listening.
All right, let's move on.
Let's move on Number three sonumber three of mistakes youth
pastors make that sabotage theirministry is they stop caring
for themselves.
I think this is the most commonone out of all five that we're
talking about today of whatsabotages people's ministry.
(18:49):
So I think somewhere along theway people stop stewarding their
own mental, physical, spiritualand relational health and it
turns into a cancer and a poisonthat affects their entire life,
including their ministry.
(19:10):
You can't really separate that.
If you're tanking mentally, ifyou're tanking emotionally or
physically, spiritually any ofthose categories, I think it
starts to tank your ministry.
And this one, I see, probablylike disproportionately more
than the other ones.
(19:30):
And I don't know why that is.
Maybe these are like justarrows of the enemy, of like
trying to take us down in oneway or another.
But so many ministries I havewitnessed begin to unravel
because the ministry lead couldnot get a hold of health in
their own life.
And it's a lot like it's a lotto be the person who has to
(19:54):
maintain yourself in order tomaintain your ministry.
But, like we've seen addictions, we've seen mental health
breakdowns, health breakdowns,and some of that's not your
fault and some of it is, youknow, some of it could be
avoided and some of it can'tright.
So I'm not saying this is allyour fault, but we know that the
last one was your fault, thisone, it could be it couldn't be.
(20:18):
I don't know it, but I just knowthat health is very closely
tied with your ministry health.
You know what, if you startedto see your health as a
continuation of your ministry?
Like sometimes and I know itmight sound silly, but like my
security guard and I weretalking the other day about
working out and he's like everytime I work out and we're
(20:42):
getting close to summer camp andI'm tired, I'm like do it for
white water, do it like pushups,do them for white water, cause
we do have to be physicallypretty healthy to do this stuff.
You know like you can't gettired after five minutes.
You got to go all day long.
You've got to lift stuff, setup stuff, drag stuff like hike,
hike and you've got to pick upthe slack for kids who need help
(21:06):
or need you to carry theirstuff because they've been
playing video games for sixmonths and have never been
outside and like a hike is goingto kill my water bottle.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Here's my jacket, here's everything, because you
clearly have 14 hands.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yes, Just all that to say, and your energy.
You know like it's so funny,the number one question I get or
the number one answer I getfrom people on Sunday morning
and I say, how are you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
tired.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Why are you tired?
There's a million differentreasons.
Everyone's tired all the time.
Fine, whatever.
But as a youth pastor, we can'tbe the like.
Oh, I'm just walking around sotired all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, if it's something that the tired part,
if it's something that you cancontrol, are you tired because
you stayed up till two 30 in themorning?
That's a your fault thing.
Are you tired because you arethe parents of a newborn?
That's different, but it candefinitely affect you.
We were talking just yesterdaymaybe you weren't in this
conversation, but ourbrother-in-law.
(22:07):
They have a newborn, not anewborn eight month old and he
was saying he was shocked at howmuch sleep deprivation would
affect his everyday life yeahbecause he kind of thought I
thought I might just be tired.
I didn't think about how itmight impact relationships and
how I act with people.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Totally it just.
You don't.
You don't have a fire in you,you're just making it through.
You're just like surviving and,of course, like you said, okay
if you have a newborn right, butit just goes to show there's
the.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
is it your issue or your fault, or is it
circumstances beyond yourcontrol?
Are?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
you taking care of yourself the best you can.
We were both brand new parentsin ministry.
Yeah, I was getting by by theskin of my teeth and doing my
best.
I'm not in that stage anymore.
So if I'm exhausted all thetime, either I'm eating badly,
sleeping badly, not disciplinedin an area.
So when I show up on Sundaymorning I'm like hey, guys, like
(23:04):
so tired, how are you?
You know, it's like no, I needto set the tone for the room.
I need to be ready to talk tothe new kid, ready to bring the
energy, ready to bring the funand excitement and the joy it's
going to be stemming from me.
And if I just show up barelyawake and need an espresso to
like even function, you know, Ithink I need to ask myself like,
(23:28):
hey, if the energy of this roomand the health of this room
depends on my energy, I need tohave some.
You know, I need to eat a goodbreakfast, I need to get a good
night's sleep, I need to takecare of my body, I need to make
sure I'm not getting sick allthe time, because I need to be
here and I need to show up withmy best.
And so I think God gives ushealth to steward.
(23:50):
You know, like we, we talkabout stewarding our money and
resources.
I think of health as a resource.
I can, and maybe it's because Ihad health struggles and I
couldn't do what I wanted to do.
You know I'm, I was born with agenetic heart condition that
really took me out for a fewyears until I figured out, you
know, how to live with it in away that it didn't like sabotage
(24:15):
every single day.
It was awful and I realized,man, I feeling good is so
powerful for what you bring tothe table.
Are you thinking well?
Are you speaking well?
Are you clear?
Do you have energy?
Do you you know, like that is abig deal.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
And so, just like Stuart, like we're saying,
stewarding your money and yourresources, you steward your
health.
God's like.
I've given you health.
Are you going to maintain it?
Are you going to keep it?
Are you going to maintain it?
Are you going to keep it?
Are you going to maximize it?
Because you can use your healthfor ministry?
Because then you're sharp,you're ready to go, you're
excited, you've got energy, youcan bring people along.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You can rally the troops you know like.
Even beyond that.
It's how you interact withpeople too.
Like a tired, irritated personis not going to be able to
handle conflict, you know not tobe able to handle things that
are thrown at them, like eitherdon't want to deal with it or,
if I do deal with it, you'regoing to get my worst.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and that's not good for anybody.
Our executive pastor said foryears fatigue makes cowards out
of all of us.
It was just like you can't doanything.
You're just like I don't know,I don't care, I can't decide you
know, or you're irritable andsnapping at people.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It's like wow what was that all about?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And so then, thinking about your spiritual health,
that's obvious.
Are you continuing to grow inyour relationship with the Lord
or are you spiritually dry?
You have to eat the word of Godfor yourself, not just
distribute it for others.
Your mental health Do you needcounseling?
(25:45):
Do you need to talk to someone?
Do you have just a storm insideyou of mental and emotional
health that you cannot get aholdof?
That will come out in one wayor another Like, yeah, and these
things, it's like a lot of it,even if it's not your fault,
what's happening to you.
The personal responsibilityaspect is getting the help you
(26:07):
need to navigate it you know.
So, whether that's a healthcoach or a counselor or whatever
, but just making sure am I ashealthy as I can be, because the
ministry is an extension of meand if I go down, you know we're
going to take a huge hit, yeah,and a lot of that is avoid down
.
You know we're going to take ahuge hit, yeah, and, and a lot
of that is avoidable you know,like so many people I've seen
(26:29):
that have like mental crises andthen they have to step away
from their ministry.
It's because they were tooembarrassed to tell someone when
they started noticing a problemand then they just thought, no,
I'll just write it out, it'llbe okay.
And then slowly it keepseroding and eroding and eroding,
to where people are.
Like what is going?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
on.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And then you have to come clean and then the ministry
takes a hit because the damagehas been done that we've come as
a community with mental healthand with counseling, things like
that.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
It doesn't have the stigma that it once did and it
never should have, but I thinkthat's really strong for people.
If you feel the need to do that, by all means go ahead and do
that.
All right, I think we've beatthat horse to death.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Number four Number four is not developing others as
leaders.
We did a whole episode on thislast week of just the different
leadership styles of Jesus andopen-handed leadership, develop
and deploy all kinds of things.
So go back and listen to thatbecause that's pretty extensive
on this one.
But I think leaders reallysabotage their ministry, shoot
(27:36):
themselves in the foot if theysee themselves as the leader and
no one else is needed and or itcan kind of be a lazy thing too
.
Maybe it's not pride for youand you're like I would love to
share the leadership, but who amI sharing it with?
You know there's no one.
Oh well, find them you know,make that a prayer, make that a
(27:59):
mission mindset of I'm going tofind this person and develop
them into a leader.
Everyone should have leaderscoming out of their ministry.
Everyone should have leadersbeing developed within their
ministry.
Your ministry gets so muchbetter when there's more shared
leadership than just you,because if it's just you, you
really become the ceiling ofyour ministry.
(28:21):
It's all your personality.
I think back to when I firststarted and I was the only one
like I would do theannouncements, mc, run the game,
do the icebreaker.
Then I would do the talk, thenI would lead a small group, I
would do tech, like I was theonly person that kids saw up
(28:43):
front.
Week after week after weekafter week.
I was like every role, like puton my referee hat, now I'm
putting on my speaker hat, nowI'm putting on my MC hat, now
I'm putting on my tech hat, nowI'm putting on my pickup hat,
parking ministry hat, yeahreally I did every single thing
and it was exhausting andprobably not very dynamic of a
(29:06):
ministry.
It's just like come and see theKristen show and it was really
like okay, but what if you hadother people who could emcee and
do announcements?
What if you had other peoplethat could lead the game?
What if you had other speakers,different teaching voices?
What if you had other peoplethat could lead the game?
What if you had other speakers,different teaching voices?
What if you had other peoplethat could like even just
(29:28):
sharing their testimony orsomething like that?
But just getting other peoplegoing and leading and giving
away, not just delegating tasks,like we talked about last week,
but delegating authority.
Camp is a great time to do that.
Like you play so many games anddo so much rec, put other
people in charge of these gamesand let their style run it.
(29:48):
Do a Devo every morning.
We do really short ones at campand then we do the big talk at
night.
Get other leaders up theredoing Devos.
You know, I think when youstart developing leaders, it
makes your ministry more dynamic, more enjoyable for everyone
and so magnetic because peoplesee themselves as having a
(30:11):
chance to do ministry, not justlike well, kristen's the one who
does the ministry and we justwait until she calls us like
okay, your turn to lead smallgroup.
You know like wait till thelast half hour of the program
and that's all you.
But, until then it's all me, youknow.
But I think that's the sign ofa very healthy ministry when
(30:32):
everyone's getting to flex theirmuscles to do what they're
created to do, what they'repassionate about, and you're
kind of just letting them kindof organically like what do you
want to do?
what would you be good at?
How can I help you go to thenext level in your leadership?
Have you ever thought of doingthis?
So I think it just takes a lotof intentionality on the
(30:53):
pastor's part, which that'ssometimes where it ends, because
it's like no, I don't know howthat was too much.
But you could start reallylittle of just like saying,
would would you plan and lead agame, or would you find some
cool curriculum for our studentleadership team?
And or do you want to teach ourstudent leadership team?
Do you have a leadership lessonyou'd like to?
(31:15):
You know, give to them, or doyou want to help plan an event?
And there could be all kinds ofthings.
But basically, you'recontinuing to develop leaders.
Go back and watch the otherepisode.
And lastly, number five thelast habit to sabotage yourself
is saying things like well, thisis how we've always done it.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Where you're just getting complacency, complacent,
or you're gettingcomplacencyency, and I think a
lot of times people get in thismode where they just say, I
don't know, like we just don'tdo this, or we just always have
done this, like we just don't dosmall groups.
Well, we just always have hadjunior, high and high school
(31:59):
together and it works for us.
And instead of saying whatcould be like, what is a
possibility, what.
So if we tried this, what mighthappen?
Or do we just say, well, thisis what we do, period, Well, why
can we do something else?
Is there something else on thehorizon that would be better or
(32:23):
grow us in a different way or bemore beneficial?
You can't just say, well,there's nothing more we can do,
like we've reached the pinnacleof this ministry and that's,
we're just maintaining.
At that point, you're justmanaging what is and you have no
desire to see what could be.
And you have no desire to seewhat could be.
So I describe this as having nohustle, no hunger, no drive,
(32:48):
just like maybe that's a niceway of saying lazy, but just
sort of not asking yourselfwhere could we be better,
totally content with status quo.
You're kind of on cruisecontrol And's that quote.
Complacency kills, and I thinkthat is obviously a business
(33:09):
term, but it's true in theministry world as well.
Just like when you getcomplacent, your ministry just
sort of slowly dies yeah becauseyou're never asking the
question what could be better,what could we do?
and not that you're like wantingthe question what could be
better, what could we do?
And not that you're likewanting to like so let's just do
stuff for the sake of doingstuff, to be busy, but you're
(33:29):
analyzing what do we do and isthat the best?
How could we improve this?
Because if you plan to be herefor a long time, I mean you have
the power within you to likehow far could we take this thing
?
Like how many people could cometo know Jesus?
Because we're willing to do newand creative things that reach
(33:51):
people.
I forget who it is.
I think it might be CraigGroeschel or Andy Stanley, I
can't remember, but he says ifyou want to reach people that
nobody's reaching, you have todo things that nobody's doing.
And I loved that because the waycookie cutter more cookies that
we are doing ministry.
sometimes that's not reachingeveryone.
(34:14):
We could be reaching, you know,like we might not even be.
We might just be thinking aboutmaintaining who's in our walls,
like, well, let's just keepeveryone happy and comfortable.
But what about?
How do we expand those horizonsto reach the kids?
We're not reaching yet and Ithink that just takes a lot of
(34:34):
creativity and thought, but moreso just not being okay with
like, well, this is just what wedo, we've always done, and
works for me.
Good night, you know.
So, just never losing thathunger, that hustle, that
passion to explore and to getcreative and to figure out new
things and try new things.
(34:56):
I've tried plenty of programsLike I think this is the answer
to this and it was kind of likeno, I guess not, and we don't do
it anymore.
Oh well, what did I lose?
Not a whole lot, you know.
So be willing to try and failand adjust and rethink and
analyze and inspect, but, likealways, be curious about your
(35:17):
own ministry.
What are we doing?
That's really good.
What are we doing that is notworking and what could we be
doing?
Those are all really goodquestions to ask often, but at
the very least once a year withyour team to say where are we
going, what's next for us?
I've worked with pastors who arecomplacent and it's just sort
(35:42):
of like a grind like well, Iguess, like we did it yeah, I
mean, I don't know, is that itlike?
right you know.
But when you have a passion tosee more and more people come to
understand jesus, know jesus,have an experience with jesus,
you start to get creative oflike what's going to?
(36:03):
To get creative of like what'sgoing to draw this group of
people and what's going to drawthat group of people and what do
these people need to hear?
What kind of program would growthis person?
You know, how are we going tobuild community?
Like, when you start to seeproblems, you start to see
opportunities, right.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
So identifying the problem is very easy.
Identifying and creatingsolutions can be more difficult.
But that's where it separates,you know, the little L leader
versus the big L leader.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yes, we from last week.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, we had a an issue at the campus we
previously were at.
We had to rent out the highschool at the school and a
problem that they were havingwas people would sit in the very
back of this theater kind ofauditorium and not be filling up
the front and it felt like areally big disconnect, you know,
between like the worship teamand things like that.
(36:51):
And so I remember the pastorskind of came out and we're
figuring things like what can wedo the?
The initial thought you'd thinkis we'll block off the back and
and then they can't sit there.
But larry, uh, osborne, oursenior pastor, one of our senior
pastors said nobody wants tofeel like they're being pushed
forward.
(37:11):
Yeah, so they just took thestage and built onto it and
brought the band further out andit was like you can't do that,
like wait, like is that evenpossible?
You know, because it was a highschool that has a set stage,
like it's permanent, and theywould bring in a portable
extension to bring the stage outfurther, and I just remember
(37:33):
thinking like you could havegiven me a million years, I
never would have thought we'lljust build more stage and that
way it's like we're coming toyou.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
we eliminated the first few rows.
So it just I mean, it's likewe're coming to you, we
eliminated the first few rows,so it just.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I mean it's a small example, but just to go to show
that there's certain things youcan do out of the box, thinking
that can kind of change thingsdrastically, and that did help,
it did improve it, and I thinkyouth pastors, our breed, is
very good at being like, well, Ican't, because they won't let
me, instead of saying, well, howcan we?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I love asking for forgiveness instead of
permission.
You just start doing stuff andsee what they say.
I really do.
I love to just solve problems,find solutions, get resourceful
and not take no for an answer,you know.
But I'm glad you brought thatup, because only Larry, you know
, seemingly would think of that.
But we're all capable of thosekinds of solutions, um, without
(38:32):
just saying, well, I can't, youknow, and then just being okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Right, it's like.
Well, it is what it is.
Nothing can be done.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And if something is important, can we find a way?
Well, it is what it is.
Nothing can be done.
And if something is important,can we find a way?
Can we work something?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
out, can we?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
build something.
But yeah, I love that hungerand that hustle and that like
desire to see results.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, you know I do.
If you guys got value out ofthis episode, make sure you
subscribe, because we give awaygreat youth ministry tips and
tactics every week.
And yeah, we did reference acouple of videos.
One you talked about, obviously, the three leadership styles,
and which one are you.
That's an episode we releasedlast week or last week,
depending on.
I was going to let it go, but Iheard you last week and then
(39:18):
another one was we did do anepisode all about heart hustle
hunger.
I don't know the order of thosethree words, but make sure you
check that as well.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I didn't know that pertinent.
Yeah, please send it to me.
I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Uh, the question of the day this week is what is a
outfit that you wore in the nameof youth ministry and make sure
you guys listening if you'rewatching on youtube put in the
comment section below what issomething that you wore just for
the sake of youth ministry.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I have a lot of characters that I dress up.
As for youth ministry, I'llgive you a few.
I was a Christmas elf for waytoo many years.
And it was, I don't know, was itcute or was it obnoxious, maybe
both, maybe both, maybe bothProbably describes a lot of what
I do.
It was pretty obnoxious and Ifelt like an idiot.
(40:09):
But I was an elf for yearsEvery Christmas for the kids and
then I dressed up as BritneySpears.
Don't worry, it was totallyappropriate for this event.
We did, and I loved thatcostume.
But the funniest one lately isI was Moana for one of our
competitions and so I had thisreally big wig on, like a lot of
(40:33):
hair, very dark, curly.
It was pretty, but it wasclearly a wig or so I thought.
And it was an event where allthese new kids will come and
it's like our outreach thing.
And it was an event where allthese new kids will come and
it's like our outreach thing.
And they loved Moana, like whoknew she was so popular with
junior hires?
Like they would just like giveme candy all the time.
And they were like Moana.
(40:54):
They made like signs for me.
And then we went back toregular youth group and this new
girl's like oh my gosh, Ithought you had really dark hair
.
I thought the Moana hair wasyour hair.
I was like, oh really, she'slike yeah, that's how I met you.
I thought that was your hair.
I'm like, nope, she goes, youhave blonde hair.
(41:16):
And I was like, yeah, I'm likewhich one looks better, the
blonde or the Moana wig?
She goes the Moana hair theblonde or the Moana wig, she
goes the Moana hair.
You set yourself up.
That was your own fault.
It was a very obvious answer.
I mean, uh, okay well, I hateto tell you, but this is just
how.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
I look stuck with this version yeah, so that was
pretty funny yeah, same, I hadnot moana, but I had several
costumes that were event relateda knight one year, a pirate one
year, but I think the oddestwas I was a robot like a
cardboard silver robot it camein really handy.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
We did an air band to perry grips.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It's raining tacos was that there's a taco bot
right and you were him.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I think I used it for another.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Um we did another air band where I was a robot.
Oh, we were like we were alltoys and I was a toy robot.
So I got my money's worth outof that costume, but I remember
at the end we all would falldown yeah and I had never fallen
down in the costume and Icouldn't get up because I
couldn't roll.
I felt like uh randy onchristmas story help, me help.
I can't get't get up.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
It was too big and I was like hopefully someone
realizes I'm still on stage,Were you?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
panicking A little bit because I literally could
not move one side or the other.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
So it all worked out.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Put in the comments section below what something you
wore, ridiculous that you worein the name of youth ministry In
the name of youth ministry Okayyouth ministry.
In the name of youth ministry.
Okay, community comment of theday comes from dk silva 983, who
says this is in regards to whatshe loves about the podcast,
and she said my favorite thingis you guys.
(42:54):
You're both great and you bringamazing topics every week that
inspire me to continue to serve.
May god pour showers ofblessings over you so you can
continue to touch so many people.
Every time I learn somethingnew from you and I implement it
into our ministry.
I see growth, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Thank you so much, Really appreciate that.
That's a great comment it is.
I love when you, when peopleare like when I do it, it works.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Oh yeah, that too.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
You know like.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I, but most importantly, you did it.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Well, that's not most important, because what if it
doesn't work?
I guess you're right.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
No, the point.
That was awkward.
The point being, I think toomany people listen and don't
implement.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, so do it.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, well, we've completely derailed.
All right, you guys.
Thank you so much for watchingand listening and we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Today we're talking about five mistakes that youth
pastors make to sabotage theirministry.
And make sure you stick it down.
Today we're talking about fiveways that youth pastors sabotage
their ministry.
Five ways that youth pastorssabotage their own ministry.
Five ways that youth pastorssabotage their ministry.
Today we're talking about five mistakes that youth
pastors make that sabotage theiryouth ministry.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Ministry Coach Podcast, where we
give you weekly tips andtactics to help you fast track
the growth and health of youryouth ministry.
If this is the first time we'remeeting, my name is Jeff
Laskola and this is.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Kristen Laskola, and today we are talking about five
mistakes youth pastors make tosabotage their ministry.
That is the topic, so I hopeyou're not doing any of these.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Otherwise you're in a lot of trouble all right, let's
jump in.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So number one a big mistake I see a lot of youth
pastors make is trying to forcetheir I guess you could say age
or stage of life on to thestudents, or wanting the
students to be in a differentstage of life than they are
actually in, kind of likewishing you were a different
(01:08):
pastor than you were, and that'sreally coming through on how
you talk to students.
What's your expectation of them, the types of things you plan,
and it's almost like you're justlike I will force you to be
young adults even though you'rehigh schoolers, or like I will
force you to be high schoolerseven though you're high
schoolers, or like I will forceyou to be high schoolers even
though you're junior hires.
Now don't get me wrong.
(01:29):
I am all for teaching slightlyabove age level, not
consistently, like every singlepoint, but sprinkling in things
that would challenge, like alongtime Christian or a really
mature student, or just like Inever want students to think.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I heard this story I already know what you're going
to say, tuning out, starting now.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Right, but saying something each time in your
messages that really challengedthem.
So don't get me wrong, I'm allfor that.
What I'm talking more about islike if you're a junior high
pastor but you are bringing morehigh school energy, and if
you're a junior high pastor butyou are bringing more high
school energy, and if you're ahigh school pastor, you're
bringing more young adult energy.
Because I think, looking at themotivation, sometimes I think
(02:16):
it makes the pastor feel I guessyou could say more validated to
think like, well, my kids arereal mature and it's because I'm
a real pastor, gosh, darn it.
And I think it's tied veryclosely to the pastor's ego of
like, well, I'm not just achildren's pastor, well, I'm not
(02:38):
just a junior high pastor, fillin the blank.
But if you set a vibe that'slike well, we only do acoustic,
slow songs that are veryreflective, you know, because I
want the students to just beserious, you know, to me I think
that's a huge mistake, becauseinstead of just meeting kids
(02:59):
where they're at and forming aministry that is set up for
where they're at in life, you'resort of wishing they were
someone or something elseinstead of bringing well, what
kind of music do you like?
What kind of worship do yourespond to?
What kind of events and games?
And that's another thing.
(03:20):
I think youth pastors thinkgames like a real pastor.
A real pastor wouldn't playgames this is time for Bible
time and and then like withinterest, to like what you're
interested in theologically.
As a 25, 30 year old, I hopeit's very different than what a
(03:43):
15 year old you know, and soit's not saying well, am I not
supposed to study theology then?
Of course not.
That will enhance your teaching.
However, if you are thinking,you know I made this mistake
when I went on my Israel tourback in 2015 and I learned
everything there was about thehistory of Israel and everything
(04:04):
made so much sense and how thisintersected with everything,
and it was like we're doing anIsrael series.
You're all going to learn whatI learned for the last 10 days.
Well, when they're not, theydidn't go to Israel.
It doesn't really translate.
And what does a 15 year oldreally care about?
You know?
So you have to find ways.
Let me bring that truth in.
(04:24):
When it intersects, naturally,with what we're talking about.
But just because I'm all geekedout on the 12 tribes of Israel
and I saw the Dead Sea, red Seaand everything in between, it's
like okay, not super interesting.
You know, like when that likelong running joke, like when
(04:45):
people go on vacation and thenthey show you their slideshow
and they're like and then lookat this and it was so cool
because they're reliving it, butyou're just like it's another
beach, cool, wow, anotherseashell, but it meant something
so much to them.
It just doesn't translate verywell.
And so I think, taking thatsentiment as a youth pastor,
(05:06):
what you're geeked out about, ifthat enhances an aspect of your
teaching, great.
However, just be very carefulto not want it to be a direct
transfer.
Keep in mind your age versustheir age, your development
versus their development, andthink like what do they need to
(05:29):
know?
What are they interested in now?
What makes sense for them totake the next step with their
relationship with Jesus?
So just be careful of overdoingthat.
And I think youth pastors makethis mistake of like well, I
want to go much deeper.
Therefore, my students want togo much deeper.
I don't think we should everwater anything down or make it
shallow, but what you study inyour free time is for you, like,
(05:56):
it might not be the best fitfor the 12 year old and your
youth ministry.
I think that was a really hardlesson for me to learn, because
so often we teach out of our ownpassions Like well, what is God
teaching me?
That's what I'm going to teachthem.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And what really impacted you clearly must impact
them too, right?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
And it doesn't always and sometimes it does, and you
could probably think, like ajunior high right now, of the
exception to that statement, youknow, and there are, but just
generally be careful of tryingto make something.
It's not.
I mean, I've heard some highschool students say that they
wish like their high schoolpastor would have more fun.
(06:39):
You know, and it's like notalways just so serious, but
sometimes high school pastorswish they were young adult
pastors.
So, they try to mimic that samething for high school and the
kids are like, yeah, but I'm 14.
I still want to run around alittle bit, and so you know your
group best and where you'reerring on this.
(07:02):
Maybe you're like whoa, I amdoing that.
Or maybe you're like, yeah,right, we're soing on this, you
know.
Maybe you're like whoa, I amdoing that.
Or maybe you're like, yeah,right, Like we're, we're so good
on this.
So for all of these, you'regoing to have to sort of grade
yourself.
Or maybe ask some of yourleaders like, hey, do you think
we're hitting content?
Wise energy, wise, fun games,events are all these screaming.
(07:23):
This is the age group we workwith?
Or if somebody were to walkinto the room, would they be
like, oh, how many 40 year oldsare you expecting today for this
Bible study?
Because this is very, veryadultish you know, so just don't
force them to grow up beforethey need to.
I think that repels studentsand sabotages your ministry over
(07:48):
time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, I think a good kind of analogy or visual to
kind of go with it is you'reconstantly wanting to lead your
students, but I feel like don'tlead them with a long rope or a
chain.
Lead them by holding their handand it's like wherever you're
going, they're not going to bemuch further behind, so you're
kind of taking them from wherethey're at one step at a time to
(08:09):
you know.
Get deeper in the word and be alittle bit more mature as a
Christian, but not to the pointwhere you're 30 yards ahead
tugging them with a rope.
It's like I'm not there Rightand I can't see the next step.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And they're not your peers, you know, like the, the
things you're geeked out on,take it to your own life group
or your own bible study or yourown small group, you know or can
you make those same impactfulmoments that you're having in
your study applicable to thatage group?
you.
You might be able to and I'vedone that many times like I've
taken some really incredible timkeller stuff and I'd be like,
(08:42):
oh my gosh, this is such aprofound thought.
I can chew this up, digest thisand give this poop it out and
junior hires love poop, so fullcircle, win, win.
But it like take that conceptand be like, oh, here's what I
can extract, and I'm not goingto tell them the whole iceberg,
(09:05):
but I'll give them like the tipof the iceberg to say, like this
is an incredible thought.
Let me unpack this for you.
So it is possible.
But I'm just saying, when itcomes to youth ministry, just
making sure you're not expectingkids to be your peer right you
theologically or energy wise oranything like that.
(09:27):
So most of the time we need tocome to them, you know All right
.
Number two another thing thatwill sabotage your youth
ministry is if you have terribleconflict management skills.
So how you deal with conflictand conflict is clearly not an
(09:48):
if but a when, whether it's witha student, a family, parents,
leaders, co-workers, whatever.
How you deal with conflict inministry, I think is tied to
some of your longevity inministry, meaning how do you
treat people when there is adifference of opinion, when
(10:11):
there's tension, when there's adisagreement on how something
should be done, like?
What are your steps forconflict resolution?
And I think this one I thinkpride shows up so hard in
conflict of like.
If you didn't think youstruggled with pride and then
(10:33):
you have to apologize or try notto speak badly about somebody.
I saw a quote the other daythat was saying whenever you try
to make someone else look bad,you just end up making yourself
look bad, and I think that's ahuge temptation of like.
Well, they did this.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And you know and everyone needs to know that.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, but it can really really backfire on you.
So there's some all unhealthyconflict is like avoiding it all
together.
I think some people are justscared of it.
Like oh no, like makes me souncomfortable, I don't want to
have hard conversations.
Maybe that's you, You're justan avoider.
Maybe, like we said, it's it'spride.
(11:17):
Maybe it's just the fear ofdealing with it head on because
you lack the skills.
You just don't even know whatto do next.
But I think this is where someyouth pastors get off the rails
If they cannot reconcile withpeople, smooth things over and
(11:37):
become stronger at the end of itthan they were at the beginning
, meaning like sometimes if youdo conflict really well, you are
closer to that person or createmore of a fan out of that
person than if you had neverbeen in the conflict to begin
with.
Like it gave you the chance toprove to them I'm on your team
(12:00):
even though we disagree, or Ihave your back or I'm not going
to speak badly of you.
One of the worst things is whenyou don't go to that person,
but you go above that person oraround that person.
I had a dad years ago get madat me for something that I
didn't even know had happened.
It was like in a car on the wayto a camp.
(12:22):
It was a like some thing, likea song that he didn't like that
was in the car.
I wasn't in that car, I had noclue and instead of just calling
me, he called like our highestsenior pastor of like every
campus.
And I'm like you could havegiven me first shot at that,
(12:43):
like I think I could havehandled that as an apology.
Like nobody died.
We didn't have to go straightfor you know the head honcho.
So whenever you deal withconflict with people, try to go
to them first If it's not somekind of outlandish, dangerous
situation.
You know there's obviouslyexceptions for everything, but
(13:03):
most of the time you can godirectly to that person and say
help me understand what justhappened.
Or what did you mean by this ordid you feel weird when we left
?
And if you notice, all of thosestart with a question.
I think conflict always goesbetter with a question like was
it just me or did we did thingsseem off when we were done
(13:28):
talking, or why are you sostupid?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
what is your deal, jeff?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
now, those are questions.
However, those are not thequestions we're looking for.
Okay, but I'm just spitballingglad you're here, so you're
learning and keep up the goodwork.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Okay, I will.
Yeah, gold star Yikes.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So, yeah, I think that can really put a cap on
your ministry if you just can'tdeal with conflict.
And then here's a really hardquestion to ask yourself, and
you don't have to answer outloud, just answering your own
brain does conflict follow you.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
We all know those people do they know themselves?
Never had a friendship workoutfor longer than you know, a year
or two.
Never had a boss that theyliked, or they're all I always
say if there's anybody you workwith and they say I'm the only
one who does any work aroundhere, I'm like, probably not
true and you're toxic.
Just saying, just saying Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So some hard truths today.
Some hard truths.
So if you're the kind of personnow odds are you are not like
the most unlucky person in theworld that every single person
you work with is out to get you.
Every single boss you had isout to get you.
Every parent hates you, Everyyou know like.
(14:54):
If, if you look back at yourlife or your ministry and you
just are like there's always aconflict, that might be a moment
to like.
Let's reflect and dig andexcavate this idea a little bit,
Because, in the words of TaylorSwift, could it be?
(15:14):
You are the problem, Me is theproblem.
It's me.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I am the problem.
It's me, because you could havea bad boss.
One for one, yeah, bummer.
For you it may be even two fortwo.
I almost feel like rule ofthree.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
if there's three, it's probably you well, and
there can be things you don'tlike about all three of them, of
course.
However, if it is constantlyblowing up to this, this
heightened level of drama,tension, toxicity, right, One of
us has to go.
It might be worth looking at.
(15:53):
How am I handling conflict?
Because every person I'veworked for I've had a
frustration and I'm sure they'vehad a frustration with me and
I've had a million good thingsto say about them and I hope
they've had a million goodthings to say about me.
It's like where are we gettingfixated?
And Chris Brown, our seniorpastor, said something so great
the other day.
He's like somewhere along theline we thought like maybe as
(16:19):
Americans I can't rememberexactly how we said it that like
it is unacceptable to beirritated, or it's like
unacceptable for something tofrustrate us.
Like, some things are justfrustrating and some people are
just irritating, and you as theleader, as the pastor, as the
Christian, as just the humanbeing, need to just know you
(16:43):
cannot eliminate allfrustrations and irritations.
The question is how do you movedespite those?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You know, are you still able to be civil and kind
and work together with peoplewho irritate you or that you
don't like or do?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
you just be married to them.
You've been married to me foralmost 15 years and I irritate
you on a daily basis.
So good for you for putting upwith me.
See, do like me, hide it well,no, push it deep, down, deep I
love you, but you know what Imean.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
It's like we can't just see irritations and
frustrations as oh my gosh, thisis unacceptable.
It it's like can you navigateit though?
Can you just put your head downand do the work?
Can you see the good in thatperson, too, and work alongside
them, even though they aren'tyour BFF, like you know, like
just?
I guess part of the thing, toois we need to sometimes grow a
(17:41):
thicker skin, for just like itdoes.
If you go to a new church, itwill still be there.
If you go to a new church, itwill still be there.
If you go to a new staff, it'llstill be there.
There will always be thatperson or people who just are
grading.
Yeah, but you can do it, you'llbe fine.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I know someone who had transferred churches
multiple times and I almost feltlike if I had recorded you
every single time I could haveplayed it back, and you're
saying the same thing for everystaff that you've worked on.
So it's like either all five orwhatever these churches are
like cookie cutters of theprevious one, or maybe you're
just seeing these same thingsand people and it's more of a
(18:19):
you thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I want a cookie.
Now you said cookie cutter.
I'm like, oh, that soundsreally good Yum, yum, yum, yum
yum.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Thanks for focusing.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I was listening.
All right, let's move on.
Let's move on Number three sonumber three of mistakes youth
pastors make that sabotage theirministry is they stop caring
for themselves.
I think this is the most commonone out of all five that we're
talking about today of whatsabotages people's ministry.
(18:49):
So I think somewhere along theway people stop stewarding their
own mental, physical, spiritualand relational health and it
turns into a cancer and a poisonthat affects their entire life,
including their ministry.
(19:10):
You can't really separate that.
If you're tanking mentally, ifyou're tanking emotionally or
physically, spiritually any ofthose categories, I think it
starts to tank your ministry.
And this one, I see, probablylike disproportionately more
than the other ones.
(19:30):
And I don't know why that is.
Maybe these are like justarrows of the enemy, of like
trying to take us down in oneway or another.
But so many ministries I havewitnessed begin to unravel
because the ministry lead couldnot get a hold of health in
their own life.
And it's a lot like it's a lotto be the person who has to
(19:54):
maintain yourself in order tomaintain your ministry.
But, like we've seen addictions, we've seen mental health
breakdowns, health breakdowns,and some of that's not your
fault and some of it is, youknow, some of it could be
avoided and some of it can'tright.
So I'm not saying this is allyour fault, but we know that the
last one was your fault, thisone, it could be it couldn't be.
(20:18):
I don't know it, but I just knowthat health is very closely
tied with your ministry health.
You know what, if you startedto see your health as a
continuation of your ministry?
Like sometimes and I know itmight sound silly, but like my
security guard and I weretalking the other day about
working out and he's like everytime I work out and we're
(20:42):
getting close to summer camp andI'm tired, I'm like do it for
white water, do it like pushups,do them for white water, cause
we do have to be physicallypretty healthy to do this stuff.
You know like you can't gettired after five minutes.
You got to go all day long.
You've got to lift stuff, setup stuff, drag stuff like hike,
hike and you've got to pick upthe slack for kids who need help
(21:06):
or need you to carry theirstuff because they've been
playing video games for sixmonths and have never been
outside and like a hike is goingto kill my water bottle.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Here's my jacket, here's everything, because you
clearly have 14 hands.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yes, Just all that to say, and your energy.
You know like it's so funny,the number one question I get or
the number one answer I getfrom people on Sunday morning
and I say, how are you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
tired.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Why are you tired?
There's a million differentreasons.
Everyone's tired all the time.
Fine, whatever.
But as a youth pastor, we can'tbe the like.
Oh, I'm just walking around sotired all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, if it's something that the tired part,
if it's something that you cancontrol, are you tired because
you stayed up till two 30 in themorning?
That's a your fault thing.
Are you tired because you arethe parents of a newborn?
That's different, but it candefinitely affect you.
We were talking just yesterdaymaybe you weren't in this
conversation, but ourbrother-in-law.
(22:07):
They have a newborn, not anewborn eight month old and he
was saying he was shocked at howmuch sleep deprivation would
affect his everyday life yeahbecause he kind of thought I
thought I might just be tired.
I didn't think about how itmight impact relationships and
how I act with people.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Totally it just.
You don't.
You don't have a fire in you,you're just making it through.
You're just like surviving and,of course, like you said, okay
if you have a newborn right, butit just goes to show there's
the.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
is it your issue or your fault, or is it
circumstances beyond yourcontrol?
Are?
Speaker 1 (22:43):
you taking care of yourself the best you can.
We were both brand new parentsin ministry.
Yeah, I was getting by by theskin of my teeth and doing my
best.
I'm not in that stage anymore.
So if I'm exhausted all thetime, either I'm eating badly,
sleeping badly, not disciplinedin an area.
So when I show up on Sundaymorning I'm like hey, guys, like
(23:04):
so tired, how are you?
You know, it's like no, I needto set the tone for the room.
I need to be ready to talk tothe new kid, ready to bring the
energy, ready to bring the funand excitement and the joy it's
going to be stemming from me.
And if I just show up barelyawake and need an espresso to
like even function, you know, Ithink I need to ask myself like,
(23:28):
hey, if the energy of this roomand the health of this room
depends on my energy, I need tohave some.
You know, I need to eat a goodbreakfast, I need to get a good
night's sleep, I need to takecare of my body, I need to make
sure I'm not getting sick allthe time, because I need to be
here and I need to show up withmy best.
And so I think God gives ushealth to steward.
(23:50):
You know, like we, we talkabout stewarding our money and
resources.
I think of health as a resource.
I can, and maybe it's because Ihad health struggles and I
couldn't do what I wanted to do.
You know I'm, I was born with agenetic heart condition that
really took me out for a fewyears until I figured out, you
know, how to live with it in away that it didn't like sabotage
(24:15):
every single day.
It was awful and I realized,man, I feeling good is so
powerful for what you bring tothe table.
Are you thinking well?
Are you speaking well?
Are you clear?
Do you have energy?
Do you you know, like that is abig deal.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
And so, just like Stuart, like we're saying,
stewarding your money and yourresources, you steward your
health.
God's like.
I've given you health.
Are you going to maintain it?
Are you going to keep it?
Are you going to maintain it?
Are you going to keep it?
Are you going to maximize it?
Because you can use your healthfor ministry?
Because then you're sharp,you're ready to go, you're
excited, you've got energy, youcan bring people along.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You can rally the troops you know like.
Even beyond that.
It's how you interact withpeople too.
Like a tired, irritated personis not going to be able to
handle conflict, you know not tobe able to handle things that
are thrown at them, like eitherdon't want to deal with it or,
if I do deal with it, you'regoing to get my worst.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and that's not good for anybody.
Our executive pastor said foryears fatigue makes cowards out
of all of us.
It was just like you can't doanything.
You're just like I don't know,I don't care, I can't decide you
know, or you're irritable andsnapping at people.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It's like wow what was that all about?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And so then, thinking about your spiritual health,
that's obvious.
Are you continuing to grow inyour relationship with the Lord
or are you spiritually dry?
You have to eat the word of Godfor yourself, not just
distribute it for others.
Your mental health Do you needcounseling?
(25:45):
Do you need to talk to someone?
Do you have just a storm insideyou of mental and emotional
health that you cannot get aholdof?
That will come out in one wayor another Like, yeah, and these
things, it's like a lot of it,even if it's not your fault,
what's happening to you.
The personal responsibilityaspect is getting the help you
(26:07):
need to navigate it you know.
So, whether that's a healthcoach or a counselor or whatever
, but just making sure am I ashealthy as I can be, because the
ministry is an extension of meand if I go down, you know we're
going to take a huge hit, yeah,and a lot of that is avoid down
.
You know we're going to take ahuge hit, yeah, and, and a lot
of that is avoidable you know,like so many people I've seen
(26:29):
that have like mental crises andthen they have to step away
from their ministry.
It's because they were tooembarrassed to tell someone when
they started noticing a problemand then they just thought, no,
I'll just write it out, it'llbe okay.
And then slowly it keepseroding and eroding and eroding,
to where people are.
Like what is going?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
on.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And then you have to come clean and then the ministry
takes a hit because the damagehas been done that we've come as
a community with mental healthand with counseling, things like
that.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
It doesn't have the stigma that it once did and it
never should have, but I thinkthat's really strong for people.
If you feel the need to do that, by all means go ahead and do
that.
All right, I think we've beatthat horse to death.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Number four Number four is not developing others as
leaders.
We did a whole episode on thislast week of just the different
leadership styles of Jesus andopen-handed leadership, develop
and deploy all kinds of things.
So go back and listen to thatbecause that's pretty extensive
on this one.
But I think leaders reallysabotage their ministry, shoot
(27:36):
themselves in the foot if theysee themselves as the leader and
no one else is needed and or itcan kind of be a lazy thing too
.
Maybe it's not pride for youand you're like I would love to
share the leadership, but who amI sharing it with?
You know there's no one.
Oh well, find them you know,make that a prayer, make that a
(27:59):
mission mindset of I'm going tofind this person and develop
them into a leader.
Everyone should have leaderscoming out of their ministry.
Everyone should have leadersbeing developed within their
ministry.
Your ministry gets so muchbetter when there's more shared
leadership than just you,because if it's just you, you
really become the ceiling ofyour ministry.
(28:21):
It's all your personality.
I think back to when I firststarted and I was the only one
like I would do theannouncements, mc, run the game,
do the icebreaker.
Then I would do the talk, thenI would lead a small group, I
would do tech, like I was theonly person that kids saw up
(28:43):
front.
Week after week after weekafter week.
I was like every role, like puton my referee hat, now I'm
putting on my speaker hat, nowI'm putting on my MC hat, now
I'm putting on my tech hat, nowI'm putting on my pickup hat,
parking ministry hat, yeahreally I did every single thing
and it was exhausting andprobably not very dynamic of a
(29:06):
ministry.
It's just like come and see theKristen show and it was really
like okay, but what if you hadother people who could emcee and
do announcements?
What if you had other peoplethat could lead the game?
What if you had other speakers,different teaching voices?
What if you had other peoplethat could lead the game?
What if you had other speakers,different teaching voices?
What if you had other peoplethat could like even just
(29:28):
sharing their testimony orsomething like that?
But just getting other peoplegoing and leading and giving
away, not just delegating tasks,like we talked about last week,
but delegating authority.
Camp is a great time to do that.
Like you play so many games anddo so much rec, put other
people in charge of these gamesand let their style run it.
(29:48):
Do a Devo every morning.
We do really short ones at campand then we do the big talk at
night.
Get other leaders up theredoing Devos.
You know, I think when youstart developing leaders, it
makes your ministry more dynamic, more enjoyable for everyone
and so magnetic because peoplesee themselves as having a
(30:11):
chance to do ministry, not justlike well, kristen's the one who
does the ministry and we justwait until she calls us like
okay, your turn to lead smallgroup.
You know like wait till thelast half hour of the program
and that's all you.
But, until then it's all me, youknow.
But I think that's the sign ofa very healthy ministry when
(30:32):
everyone's getting to flex theirmuscles to do what they're
created to do, what they'repassionate about, and you're
kind of just letting them kindof organically like what do you
want to do?
what would you be good at?
How can I help you go to thenext level in your leadership?
Have you ever thought of doingthis?
So I think it just takes a lotof intentionality on the
(30:53):
pastor's part, which that'ssometimes where it ends, because
it's like no, I don't know howthat was too much.
But you could start reallylittle of just like saying,
would would you plan and lead agame, or would you find some
cool curriculum for our studentleadership team?
And or do you want to teach ourstudent leadership team?
Do you have a leadership lessonyou'd like to?
(31:15):
You know, give to them, or doyou want to help plan an event?
And there could be all kinds ofthings.
But basically, you'recontinuing to develop leaders.
Go back and watch the otherepisode.
And lastly, number five thelast habit to sabotage yourself
is saying things like well, thisis how we've always done it.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Where you're just getting complacency, complacent,
or you're gettingcomplacencyency, and I think a
lot of times people get in thismode where they just say, I
don't know, like we just don'tdo this, or we just always have
done this, like we just don't dosmall groups.
Well, we just always have hadjunior, high and high school
(31:59):
together and it works for us.
And instead of saying whatcould be like, what is a
possibility, what.
So if we tried this, what mighthappen?
Or do we just say, well, thisis what we do, period, Well, why
can we do something else?
Is there something else on thehorizon that would be better or
(32:23):
grow us in a different way or bemore beneficial?
You can't just say, well,there's nothing more we can do,
like we've reached the pinnacleof this ministry and that's,
we're just maintaining.
At that point, you're justmanaging what is and you have no
desire to see what could be.
And you have no desire to seewhat could be.
So I describe this as having nohustle, no hunger, no drive,
(32:48):
just like maybe that's a niceway of saying lazy, but just
sort of not asking yourselfwhere could we be better,
totally content with status quo.
You're kind of on cruisecontrol And's that quote.
Complacency kills, and I thinkthat is obviously a business
(33:09):
term, but it's true in theministry world as well.
Just like when you getcomplacent, your ministry just
sort of slowly dies yeah becauseyou're never asking the
question what could be better,what could we do?
and not that you're like wantingthe question what could be
better, what could we do?
And not that you're likewanting to like so let's just do
stuff for the sake of doingstuff, to be busy, but you're
(33:29):
analyzing what do we do and isthat the best?
How could we improve this?
Because if you plan to be herefor a long time, I mean you have
the power within you to likehow far could we take this thing
?
Like how many people could cometo know Jesus?
Because we're willing to do newand creative things that reach
(33:51):
people.
I forget who it is.
I think it might be CraigGroeschel or Andy Stanley, I
can't remember, but he says ifyou want to reach people that
nobody's reaching, you have todo things that nobody's doing.
And I loved that because the waycookie cutter more cookies that
we are doing ministry.
sometimes that's not reachingeveryone.
(34:14):
We could be reaching, you know,like we might not even be.
We might just be thinking aboutmaintaining who's in our walls,
like, well, let's just keepeveryone happy and comfortable.
But what about?
How do we expand those horizonsto reach the kids?
We're not reaching yet and Ithink that just takes a lot of
(34:34):
creativity and thought, but moreso just not being okay with
like, well, this is just what wedo, we've always done, and
works for me.
Good night, you know.
So, just never losing thathunger, that hustle, that
passion to explore and to getcreative and to figure out new
things and try new things.
(34:56):
I've tried plenty of programsLike I think this is the answer
to this and it was kind of likeno, I guess not, and we don't do
it anymore.
Oh well, what did I lose?
Not a whole lot, you know.
So be willing to try and failand adjust and rethink and
analyze and inspect, but, likealways, be curious about your
(35:17):
own ministry.
What are we doing?
That's really good.
What are we doing that is notworking and what could we be
doing?
Those are all really goodquestions to ask often, but at
the very least once a year withyour team to say where are we
going, what's next for us?
I've worked with pastors who arecomplacent and it's just sort
(35:42):
of like a grind like well, Iguess, like we did it yeah, I
mean, I don't know, is that itlike?
right you know.
But when you have a passion tosee more and more people come to
understand jesus, know jesus,have an experience with jesus,
you start to get creative oflike what's going to?
(36:03):
To get creative of like what'sgoing to draw this group of
people and what's going to drawthat group of people and what do
these people need to hear?
What kind of program would growthis person?
You know, how are we going tobuild community?
Like, when you start to seeproblems, you start to see
opportunities, right.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
So identifying the problem is very easy.
Identifying and creatingsolutions can be more difficult.
But that's where it separates,you know, the little L leader
versus the big L leader.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yes, we from last week.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, we had a an issue at the campus we
previously were at.
We had to rent out the highschool at the school and a
problem that they were havingwas people would sit in the very
back of this theater kind ofauditorium and not be filling up
the front and it felt like areally big disconnect, you know,
between like the worship teamand things like that.
(36:51):
And so I remember the pastorskind of came out and we're
figuring things like what can wedo the?
The initial thought you'd thinkis we'll block off the back and
and then they can't sit there.
But larry, uh, osborne, oursenior pastor, one of our senior
pastors said nobody wants tofeel like they're being pushed
forward.
(37:11):
Yeah, so they just took thestage and built onto it and
brought the band further out andit was like you can't do that,
like wait, like is that evenpossible?
You know, because it was a highschool that has a set stage,
like it's permanent, and theywould bring in a portable
extension to bring the stage outfurther, and I just remember
(37:33):
thinking like you could havegiven me a million years, I
never would have thought we'lljust build more stage and that
way it's like we're coming toyou.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
we eliminated the first few rows.
So it just I mean, it's likewe're coming to you, we
eliminated the first few rows,so it just.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I mean it's a small example, but just to go to show
that there's certain things youcan do out of the box, thinking
that can kind of change thingsdrastically, and that did help,
it did improve it, and I thinkyouth pastors, our breed, is
very good at being like, well, Ican't, because they won't let
me, instead of saying, well, howcan we?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I love asking for forgiveness instead of
permission.
You just start doing stuff andsee what they say.
I really do.
I love to just solve problems,find solutions, get resourceful
and not take no for an answer,you know.
But I'm glad you brought thatup, because only Larry, you know
, seemingly would think of that.
But we're all capable of thosekinds of solutions, um, without
(38:32):
just saying, well, I can't, youknow, and then just being okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Right, it's like.
Well, it is what it is.
Nothing can be done.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And if something is important, can we find a way?
Well, it is what it is.
Nothing can be done.
And if something is important,can we find a way?
Can we work something?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
out, can we?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
build something.
But yeah, I love that hungerand that hustle and that like
desire to see results.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, you know I do.
If you guys got value out ofthis episode, make sure you
subscribe, because we give awaygreat youth ministry tips and
tactics every week.
And yeah, we did reference acouple of videos.
One you talked about, obviously, the three leadership styles,
and which one are you.
That's an episode we releasedlast week or last week,
depending on.
I was going to let it go, but Iheard you last week and then
(39:18):
another one was we did do anepisode all about heart hustle
hunger.
I don't know the order of thosethree words, but make sure you
check that as well.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I didn't know that pertinent.
Yeah, please send it to me.
I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Uh, the question of the day this week is what is a
outfit that you wore in the nameof youth ministry and make sure
you guys listening if you'rewatching on youtube put in the
comment section below what issomething that you wore just for
the sake of youth ministry.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I have a lot of characters that I dress up.
As for youth ministry, I'llgive you a few.
I was a Christmas elf for waytoo many years.
And it was, I don't know, was itcute or was it obnoxious, maybe
both, maybe both, maybe bothProbably describes a lot of what
I do.
It was pretty obnoxious and Ifelt like an idiot.
(40:09):
But I was an elf for yearsEvery Christmas for the kids and
then I dressed up as BritneySpears.
Don't worry, it was totallyappropriate for this event.
We did, and I loved thatcostume.
But the funniest one lately isI was Moana for one of our
competitions and so I had thisreally big wig on, like a lot of
(40:33):
hair, very dark, curly.
It was pretty, but it wasclearly a wig or so I thought.
And it was an event where allthese new kids will come and
it's like our outreach thing.
And it was an event where allthese new kids will come and
it's like our outreach thing.
And they loved Moana, like whoknew she was so popular with
junior hires?
Like they would just like giveme candy all the time.
And they were like Moana.
(40:54):
They made like signs for me.
And then we went back toregular youth group and this new
girl's like oh my gosh, Ithought you had really dark hair
.
I thought the Moana hair wasyour hair.
I was like, oh really, she'slike yeah, that's how I met you.
I thought that was your hair.
I'm like, nope, she goes, youhave blonde hair.
(41:16):
And I was like, yeah, I'm likewhich one looks better, the
blonde or the Moana wig?
She goes the Moana hair theblonde or the Moana wig, she
goes the Moana hair.
You set yourself up.
That was your own fault.
It was a very obvious answer.
I mean, uh, okay well, I hateto tell you, but this is just
how.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
I look stuck with this version yeah, so that was
pretty funny yeah, same, I hadnot moana, but I had several
costumes that were event relateda knight one year, a pirate one
year, but I think the oddestwas I was a robot like a
cardboard silver robot it camein really handy.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
We did an air band to perry grips.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It's raining tacos was that there's a taco bot
right and you were him.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I think I used it for another.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Um we did another air band where I was a robot.
Oh, we were like we were alltoys and I was a toy robot.
So I got my money's worth outof that costume, but I remember
at the end we all would falldown yeah and I had never fallen
down in the costume and Icouldn't get up because I
couldn't roll.
I felt like uh randy onchristmas story help, me help.
I can't get't get up.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
It was too big and I was like hopefully someone
realizes I'm still on stage,Were you?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
panicking A little bit because I literally could
not move one side or the other.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
So it all worked out.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Put in the comments section below what something you
wore, ridiculous that you worein the name of youth ministry In
the name of youth ministry Okayyouth ministry.
In the name of youth ministry.
Okay, community comment of theday comes from dk silva 983, who
says this is in regards to whatshe loves about the podcast,
and she said my favorite thingis you guys.
(42:54):
You're both great and you bringamazing topics every week that
inspire me to continue to serve.
May god pour showers ofblessings over you so you can
continue to touch so many people.
Every time I learn somethingnew from you and I implement it
into our ministry.
I see growth, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Thank you so much, Really appreciate that.
That's a great comment it is.
I love when you, when peopleare like when I do it, it works.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Oh yeah, that too.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
You know like.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I, but most importantly, you did it.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Well, that's not most important, because what if it
doesn't work?
I guess you're right.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
No, the point.
That was awkward.
The point being, I think toomany people listen and don't
implement.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, so do it.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, well, we've completely derailed.
All right, you guys.
Thank you so much for watchingand listening and we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Today we're talking about five mistakes that youth
pastors make to sabotage theirministry.
And make sure you stick it down.
Today we're talking about fiveways that youth pastors sabotage
their ministry.
Five ways that youth pastorssabotage their own ministry.
Five ways that youth pastorssabotage their ministry.
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