April 24, 2025 • 36 mins
Now is the time to grow a healthy, thriving youth ministry...if you'd like to work with us, check out GrowYourYouthMinistry.com *** Ever found yourself doing a little "pastor math" with your youth group attendance? You're not alone. Those numbers we sometimes inflate or obsess over aren't just digits – they're telling a powerful story about your youth ministry's health and impact.
What makes this conversation so vital is that youth ministry numbers truly matter, not because bigger is better, but because "every number has a name, every name has a story, and every story matters to God." This perspective transforms how we view our student ministry metrics from a source of pride or insecurity into valuable insights about the young people we're called to shepherd.
Ready to transform how you view your numbers and create a youth ministry that students can't wait to attend? This episode provides practical steps to close that back door, create magnetic programming, and foster healthy, sustainable growth. What story are your numbers telling you? Share your thoughts or questions about your ministry trends – we'd love to continue this conversation with you!
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We love hearing from you all and we do our best to provide powerful and insightful youth ministry content on a weekly basis to be that coach and mentor you may not have, but desperately need.
If you have an episode idea, please E-Mail us at MinistryCoachPodcast@gmail.com!
If you have it on your heart to support this ministry, please consider going to our Patreon page at: www.patreon.com/ministrycoach
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You may also enjoy these episodes:
(#219) LISTEN TO THIS if You Want Consistent Youth Ministry Attendance
(#239) Your Youth Ministry Website is ALL WRONG! (Here's How to Fix It!)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are your numbers trying to tell you in youth
ministry?
That's what we're talking abouttoday on the Ministry Coach
Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Ministry Coach Podcast where we
give you weekly tips and tacticsto help you fast track the
growth and health of your youthministry.
If this is the first time,we're meeting.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
My name is Jeff Laskola and this is Kristen
Laskola, and I would like toknow if this is the first time
we're meeting.
Maybe drop a comment below andtell us if this is your very
first episode.
That would be really cool tohear because the topic we're
talking about today might bringsome new listeners, because if
you're a youth pastor, numbersis a hot topic and it can be a
(00:49):
sore subject.
It can be a source of pride forsome.
It could be a sense of or asource of insecurity for others,
depending on what those numbersare.
And I think, regardless if yournumbers are a sense of pride
(01:09):
for you or a source ofinsecurity for you, all of us
have done pastor math with ournumbers.
So pastor math is like youinflate your numbers by like 10
or so you know, or you take thehighest number you've ever.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think that's usually what it is and that
becomes your average exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, how many students do you have on a given
week and you think of thehighest number?
You can think of that you'veever had.
And then you round up right andthen that's your highest,
that's your average attendance,and I don't think any of us are
intentionally like I'm going tolie about this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
But there's just this .
Well, maybe, but hopefully not.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I mean, I just think there's this need in us to
inflate them a little bitbecause, whether we like to
admit it or not, I think ournumbers are tied into our value
and nobody would say that.
But it's this just understoodthing like, wow, you have a
(02:11):
youth ministry of a thousand.
Whoa, you're legit.
Oh, you only have two kids.
And we will spiritualize it andwe'll say no, it's fine, but
deep down, we wonder and it?
And we'll say no, it's fine,but deep down we wonder like and
it's okay to wonder, it's good.
Actually, and that's what we'regoing to talk about today is
(02:31):
like well, what?
Not necessarily like numbersbeing good or bad.
Let's look at it in a way ofnumbers telling a storybers
don't tell us everything.
That's what our senior pastoralways says.
He's like numbers don't tell usthe whole story, but they do
tell us a story, and so youcan't put well, if it's big,
(02:55):
it's good, If it's small, it'sbad, it's not as concrete and
simplistic as that, in additionto the story it's telling, are
the numbers going up or are thenumbers going down in a trend
setting?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
jumping ahead, silly goose I figured I would, why not
?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
you're a trendsetter, jeff, you're brilliant,
something like that.
Well, yeah, so we're gonna saytoday well, what question should
we be asking ourselves to?
To sort of try to pull out thestory that they're trying to
tell?
us about what's going on,because they are an indicator.
And here's why numbers matter.
I love what this pastor said.
(03:32):
He said numbers matter becausepeople matter.
Every number has a name, everyname has a story and every story
matters to God.
And so we can't just say, oh,numbers don't matter.
Well, yes and no, because ifyou look at it, it's like well,
I mean, number one is a person,number two is a person.
(03:53):
So if you're assigning peopleto these numbers, well then they
do matter if they're people.
It's just numbers don't matterin the sense that they don't
tell us how the end all be allstory of how valuable our
ministry is or how effective itis or how dynamic it is or how
good we are as a pastor.
(04:14):
That is where they can'tcommunicate everything.
But they do matter in the sensethat they reflect real souls
like real people and it's goodto.
I guess.
Today I want to have kind oflike a healthier relationship
and a healthier perspective onnumbers.
(04:35):
So first, are you even takingaccurate attendance and
consistent attendance?
So, like, do you know what yournumbers are recently accurately
, like you know?
Here's what I would say a greatplace to start is you don't take
attendance consistently andaccurately.
(04:56):
That is a great place to startfrom.
This episode of find a systemthat works for your setting, of
how you can make sure you knowwho's actually coming through
the doors.
That's a huge step of.
I mean, knowing who's cominghelps in all kinds of ways with
discipleship, assimilation.
You know being seen, known andkept up with.
(05:18):
You know tending the flock likecaring for the sheep.
You got to know who the sheepare and if they're coming or
going or where have they been.
It just tells you so muchinformation.
So if you don't even takeattendance yet, please start
doing that.
Secondly, what we want to startto look at is if we are
(05:38):
trending up and this is kind ofwhere you were going a second
ago, I think if you areconsistently trending up or
consistently trending down orstaying the same.
Here's how you can find thatout.
Let's assume you have beendoing your attendance for
however long you've been inministry.
What you want to do is pull thenumbers at least from the last
(06:03):
calendar year.
If you have it, I think itwould be better to go back a
couple of years, year to date.
So right now it's April, soApril 2025 is current.
Go back to April 2024.
What was our consistent oraverage number for the spring of
(06:23):
2024 and 2023.
And let's compare those twothings and see where are we
trending when we compare it tothe years past.
Are we going up?
And if so, then you can get alittle more specific and say by
how much?
So, are we growing by 10%?
Are we ready for that 10%growth?
(06:45):
Are we shrinking by 10%?
Now we're going to talk alittle bit more specific,
because even that can't tell usthe full picture, but it's
really good.
It's a really good startingplace.
And a little side note if you'rea pastor who is going to be
pitching for anything with yoursenior pastor, maybe you want to
(07:06):
raise, maybe you want a budgetincrease, maybe you want to hire
another staff member.
This is very good informationto know.
So if you can make a case forwhy you need the extra money in
your budget or why you need theextra staff member because you
can clearly show an upward trendin your youth ministry, it's a
lot easier to make a case thanjust I want one, you know, or I?
(07:29):
Why do you want to raise?
Cause I want more money.
Inflation, you know Well, ofcourse.
But can you make a case for?
Well, hey, I've grown.
We've grown consistently 10%every single year.
More families are coming andyou know, the bigger the
ministry, I mean, the more careinvolved and the more complex it
(07:50):
becomes involved and the morecomplex it becomes.
And there you go, you made moreof a case.
Here's why that, even if youcan show a graph of where your
numbers are trending, here's whythat doesn't show completely
the full story and why you haveto get a little more in detail
(08:10):
with your numbers, is becausethere's this backdoor factor
that might be skewing thingswithout you realizing it.
For example, getting newstudents is really exciting,
like some youth groups are like.
We get new faces every singleweek.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Cool.
I'm glad they're inviting theirfriends, your overall numbers
aren't going up and that is likeshould be going off like a
warning bell to you so if youare noticing new faces every
single week, yet your numbershave either downtrended or have
stayed the same, that means theback door is gaping open right
(08:49):
now meaning people are coming inthe front door and they're just
walking right out the back door.
In simpler terms, you're notretaining anyone and that should
go off, like I said, like awarning bell for you.
So then you have to start toask deeper questions here.
Why aren't they staying?
So if somebody was eager enoughto come and to visit and to see
(09:13):
, but they didn't stay, we'vegot a problem and it's okay to
acknowledge we have a problem.
I think sometimes people don'twant to look at numbers in their
budget, their bank account,their checking account, you know
, because they're like la, la,la, la, it's too scary to really
dive in, and so I challenge you.
If you're kind of avoidingdigging into the nitty-gritty, I
(09:38):
would challenge you.
You've got to ask thesequestions and be brave, because
it doesn't mean you're bad, itdoesn't mean your youth group's
bad, it just means something'soff and you can probably fix it.
Know, unless it's some liketoxic environment and, like you
know, it's like some weird cult,it's like, well, you should be
(09:58):
able to fix it.
You just have to figure outwhere's the leak you know.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
So Because the greatest thing any youth pastor
not should say the greatestthing One of the best things for
a youth pastor is when you'reseeing these new faces, because
it means people are invitingpeople.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It must be a good thing, it must be a good thing,
but then, like you said, ifyou're not keeping them there,
then they're.
Yeah, there's obviouslysomething going on.
It's hard to get them in thedoor sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It's like the last thing you want to do is once you
finally get them, oh, they'renot coming back.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, and we can talk through some of that.
Well, first of all, I wouldrecommend Larry Osborne's book
Sticky Church and that whatwe're talking about right now.
That is the entire premise ofthe book of how to close the
back door.
Like people want to come, howdo you keep them from just
sneaking out the back door?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And you wonder where did all these people go?
And if they're middle schoolers, you definitely don't want them
sneaking anywhere.
Lock the doors, securitycameras.
We have a whole episode on that.
Don't want them sneakinganywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So lock the doors.
Security cameras we have awhole episode on that.
Can't trust them.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Love them, love them.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Can't trust them.
So, some of them you can't Um.
So if you're noticing, yeah,that's totally us, and what
we're saying right now isresonating with you.
Here would be my guess withoutknowing your youth ministry,
without knowing you, withoutknowing exactly what is going on
, here's what I would guess isthat your discipleship model is
(11:19):
broken.
So I think people cannot getconnected or grow.
So it's kind of like a flash inthe pan type of ministry where
maybe they heard the gospel forthe first time.
They got saved.
They were saved, they wereexcited, they were wanting to
(11:40):
follow and know what's next.
And then they want to know whatwas next.
And then they wanted to know.
You know what I mean.
You never gave them a next step.
You just were like kind of thecome, get saved, be excited, and
then the next batch of peoplecome and get saved and be
excited.
So one way that we put this atour church is that we're
believer focused, but seekersensitive, meaning that we're
(12:03):
most of our efforts go towarddiscipleship, but it doesn't
mean that we're leaving the newperson behind and that they feel
like, oh my gosh, they're sofar ahead of me Like I can never
keep up.
I can never, you know can'tunderstand the terminology.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You know the traditions, maybe, that they're
doing that Like it's like.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I don't know what this even means, so, and it
doesn't mean so dumb it down,you know, or leave out the hard
truth of the gospel?
Not at all.
But in the way that you speakum little things or like we
always have bibles available,it's not like well, you didn't
bring your bible, well, you'renot in our club it's like oh,
you don't have one here you go,take it home, you can have it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Or the simple things like, if you're going in up,
we're speaking in the book ofrevelation and maybe, pointing
out, you go to your bible.
It's the very last book.
It's like, well, a lot, lot ofyour students that have been
there for a long time are goingto be like duh, you know, I know
that.
But it's that for that one kidthat's like.
This is the first time I'veheld a Bible Sure and now you
(13:08):
tell me it's at the back.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I know where to go and I feel like weird, like
looking over.
Do you always patronize us?
We know where the book of Jamesis.
And the pastors are like.
I'm not saying it for you.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
If you know where it is.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
congratulations, good for you.
What you do is you kind ofspeak for a little bit to give
them time to find it.
I was coaching one of ourspeakers this weekend and I told
him like hey, you've got togive them time.
You said Matthew six, 24.
(13:40):
And then you just started.
I'm like the kids need time,you know so, and you make it
seem natural like all right, foryou knew people were going to
give you a couple minutes, butyou just kind of talk and okay,
let me set this up for you whileyou're getting there or
something.
So it's just you're allowingpeople to to try to keep pace
and not make it so inaccessible.
(14:01):
So all that to say if your backdoor is wide open, it's
probably a discipleship thing isthat you're not giving people a
clear next step, like, okay,I'm saved, I'm excited, I want
to do this thing.
Now what do?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
It's not just like the same message every weekend
and it's like, okay, now I'mready to sink my teeth into
something.
So you never want to be thatyouth group.
That is only where people cometo get saved, but they can't
come to be discipled and grow.
You need both.
It's not like so don't getsaved.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It's like no, of course you need both, whereas
the opposite is true as well, ifit's just like a new person is
coming and be like I have noidea what you're talking about.
I don't think this is for me,because it's so.
I'm clueless here.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Right, right, right it's, and there's definitely an
art to it and, depending on thechurch culture, some churches
are better at one particularaspect than the others.
Where I work, we just reallyfocus on discipleship.
We want to create lifelongJesus followers, that they learn
how to intersect every part oftheir life and obedience to
(15:12):
Jesus.
Not just one exciting decisionand a cool, emotional night and
that was that, but giving themwhere to go next.
So like, okay, well, where dothey go next?
They get in a small group, theystart serving somewhere.
They, you know, junior hires.
Giving, I think, is important.
So we sponsor a CompassionInternational kid and we
(15:34):
challenge them to givegenerously to that kid, you know
.
So it's like giving smallgroups serving, using their
gifts and serving, and thatcreates a more sticky
environment because now theyhave relationships, now they are
growing in their small groupdiscussion, they're growing
alongside peers of the samestage and station in life.
(15:55):
They're being challenged togive sacrificially, whether it's
their time or their parents'money or you know, whatever it
might be.
So there's these next steps.
Or we have another discipleshipgroup thing called the deep end
, where they have biblicalchallenges of memorizing the
books of the Bible andmemorizing scripture and they
get little like chaos bucks forit that they can spend at the
(16:19):
snack shack, getting them to goto camps and events.
You know, there's alwayssomething to put in front of
them of like a next step.
So if you're noticing that backdoor is wide open, I think
sitting down with your team andsaying what's our discipleship
model and if it's crickets andeveryone's like what are you
talking about?
I don't know Then you might belike there it is.
(16:43):
Like there's the back door andyou can start to work on that if
your numbers, if you'renoticing they're trending down.
So that would kind of be likewhat we just talked about would
be numbers probably staying kindof the same, new faces but no
growth.
So now let's talk about ifthey're actually trending down.
(17:03):
Now this one's a sore subjectand we're here with you, we're
holding your hand because I knowthat.
That is because I know thatthat is.
We take it very personally asyouth pastors and we think I'm
doing a bad job, I'm going tolose my job, I am embarrassed I.
What is wrong with me?
And then the toxic comparisonstuff comes in and you start
(17:27):
looking at different youthgroups on Instagram or in your
own community and you're like,why does everyone love them and
nobody loves us?
And we're trying our best.
And maybe if I had a $30,000budget, I could do cool stuff
too.
Maybe if I had a staff of 10, Icould do cool stuff too, and we
start to throw this pity party.
Can you tell that?
(17:48):
I've been there and so I knowyour thoughts and I know it's
hard.
But again, let's be brave andask some questions of, instead
of blaming everyone else.
Well, because they're notcommitted, because they have
sports and sports are moreimportant.
Or I don't have a big enoughbudget.
So we think of all thesereasons why we're trending
(18:09):
downward, but it could not haveanything to do with us.
It's all their fault, you know,and that's a pretty bad place to
be, because then you're never.
You have no hope at that point,like you're never going to be
moving toward an upward trend.
I mean, at least give it a tryinstead of just what was me kind
(18:30):
of.
So here's some questions Iwould be asking if I were
downward trending.
I would be asking number oneare we effectively meeting the
age group that we're intendingto meet?
So I think sometimes youthpastors with good intentions
will aim too high for theirstudents, or maybe too low.
(18:53):
So if you're, let's just goright in the middle and that's
where I'm at middle school.
You need to make sure you're onpar with their level of
maturity or lack thereof.
You can't expect them to behigh schoolers and design a high
school group.
If you're a high school pastor,please don't try to design a
college group because you'retrying to like raise the bar on
(19:15):
them.
It's like raise the bar in adifferent way but don't like
hold them to a high standard ofbehavior, fine, but don't try to
create, like this coffee shopenvironment because it's cool or
something, when you have kidswho are being in class all day
and just want to throw adodgeball at each other.
Know your audience.
(19:36):
And I think sometimes you needto get more realistic of.
Are you serving what they'reeating?
You know what I mean, and thatis where the pride has to get
abandoned, and don't try to fita square into a peg hole.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Write it in the comments below.
Don't try to fit a round squareinto a peg hole.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Square peg in a round hole.
Peg hole, a place to put pegs.
Oh, I've got the perfect,perfect peg for that, then where
is?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm going to stop talking.
Um, where are we?
Oh yeah, like, don't try tocreate an environment for the
wrong age group.
That could be a reason youmight be trending downward.
I would also ask are weinconsistent or disorganized?
I really, really, really, assummer is coming up, encourage,
(20:50):
please, don't cancel for thesummer.
I know it's everything withinyou wants to just push through.
Please, just keep your momentumgoing.
So what if people are traveling?
So what if your numbers dip alittle bit?
Hold on to whatever momentumyou have just keep it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
A lot of people just to camp on this for a second.
A lot of people say I want togive my leaders a break, which
to me it's like there are somany youth ministries that don't
stop during the summer but alsohave leaders who aren't burnt
out.
If your leaders are gettingburnt out and only working, or
only working volunteering ninemonths.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
There's a different problem going on.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It's not that they shouldn't be burnt out, and
they're only doing nine monthsand you're giving them three or
two or whatever.
It is off.
So consider that you know likekeep that in the back of your
mind.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Good point.
Yeah, I mean, my leaders arenot burnt out, are you guys?
Are you listening?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
They're still showing up.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
They're still showing up.
Well, and here's the thing too,I have a two leader system.
So, like one of them went tothis really cool music festival
last week, but her co-leader wasthere, so it's not like I can
never miss a Tuesday, it's likebe there and 75% of the time I
things come up things come upand I always am flexible too
(22:07):
with like you need to be late,you need to go to work, you need
to pick up your kid, your car,like do whatever you need to do,
you know, and so making sure Ithink you bring up a good point
that your leaders aren't burntout.
So I mean, we got off on aslight little rabbit trail, but
you're welcome you know, pleasedon't stop for the summer.
So that's a a potentialdiagnosis of why you might be
(22:29):
trending downward.
Or a disorganized thing.
Like can people evenparticipate if they wanted to?
Like last week's episode wasall about the information that
you're giving online on yourwebsite or on your social media.
Is it working for you orworking against you?
Like, can somebody look at youronline presence and say, oh, I
(22:51):
know exactly when and where tomeet and everything's crystal
clear and if I have anyquestions, I know exactly who to
contact?
Or is it like has I mean,there's cobwebs in this website?
I don't think anyone's been inhere in decades and that is
definitely the wrong year.
I don't think anyone's been inhere in decades, and that is
definitely the wrong year and Idon't know about this.
And so it's hard to trendupward when no fresh
(23:14):
communication is going out on aconsistent basis.
So that's something you need tolook at.
Are you fun, friendly andenergetic?
I think sometimes youth groupsare built for the people who are
already there, so the friendlyfactor is a little lacking and I
mean, please neverunderestimate the power of fun,
(23:36):
like even as an adult.
Like I look forward to thenights of our Bible study, like
when we play a game and have atreat and now we'll talk about
the Bible, but I just want tolike be human for 30 minutes and
have some fun.
We've been working all day anddealing, you know, kids and
homework and sports and work andeverything, and it's like let's
(23:58):
just like, ah, something tolook forward to you know, and
you want the youth group to notjust be well, we just come in
and get right into the word, youknow.
And you want the youth group tonot just be well, we just come
in and get right into the word,you know, because that's all
we're here for.
It's like true.
However, you've got to have thehuman component in there of
like we're all.
I mean we're all just lookingfor fun and connection and a
(24:24):
breather, and, and we do want toget in the word.
I don't want to exchange onefor the other, but make sure
it's an energetic, funenvironment that people come and
they leave filled up of like oh, that was good and one leads to
the other, like the fun partcomponent is leading to.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
when you go into your small groups, some of those
walls are broken down.
You feel more comfortablearound these people.
You know them better throughgames, through fun.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, it has a definite purpose to it.
And then here's one that youmight hate me for.
But are you staying culturallyrelevant, without compromising
beliefs, of course, orcompromising truth?
But staying culturally relevantjust shows that you understand
the times, you understand thetrends, you understand what's
(25:11):
going on in teen culture rightnow.
You don't have to dress like ateenager by any means, but you
have to kind of have like an earto the ground of a little bit
knowing their world right youknow to stay culturally relevant
.
I remember that being such a bigdeal when I was in high school
and hearing our pastor talk andthen he'd throw something in.
(25:34):
I was 14 and he would be likeyeah, and like reference
something in our world.
I'm like how did he know aboutthat?
you know, but it like made mefeel so like oh, you get it and
so the bottom line is, the goalis to create a youth ministry
that checks all these boxes and,more obviously, this isn't an
(25:54):
exhaustive list.
There's way more in animportant things.
But just sort of looking at,hey, is there something in our
program that might beresponsible for the downward
trend, is there an area of lack?
And again, chances are youcould fix it pretty quickly.
Like the things we listed arenot like, oh well, I don't know.
(26:15):
Let's like do like a yearoverhaul I mean you could
probably get it done in like twoweeks of like implementing
something to kind of inject oneof these in there if you notice
it lacking, and so kind of like,before we blame, the culture
and sports and the apathy andthe, you know well this church
(26:36):
has more resources and that'swhy everyone's going there.
Before we just blame, justremember, when people really
want something, they will waitin a really long line and go out
of their way to get it.
Chick-fil-a proves that over andover and over again.
Dutch bros yeah, I don'tunderstand it.
Maybe I should drink it one timeand I'll understand.
But sometimes a line I see fordutch bros are in and out, or
(27:00):
chick-fil-a it's like.
Or even the Costco gas line,you know if, if they really want
it, they will find a way,reroute their you know way home
to go by Costco to get the gasor go get waffle fries,
chick-fil-a or whatever it is.
I mean if, if it's good enoughand they can't resist it, they
will find a way.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And knowing human nature is like that.
How can we be that thing that'sirresistible, to where it's
like, yeah, it's a late night,or yeah, I had to come after
sports, or yeah, but oh, it's sogood, it's so good.
I can't not go.
And that's the feedback thatwe've been getting from parents,
which makes me feel like, okay,we're really hitting this age
(27:43):
group where, where they are, andwe've created something that
they are excited for.
It's not for high schoolers,it's not for elementary kids,
it's for junior like, and that'sone of our mission statements.
We say we speak junior high andthat's how we describe
ourselves to parents, and Ithink it's really true, because
they will do anything to getthere.
(28:04):
So what is that part of yourministry where, instead of
complaining because that's notgoing to get us anywhere, or
blaming, thinking, okay, how canwe become this irresistible
place where people have just gotto be?
So, hey, friend, I just wantedto interrupt this episode for a
second to let you know about anawesome opportunity for you and
(28:27):
your youth ministry.
So last year we launched ourcourse and coaching program
called Youth Ministry GrowthAccelerator and the response has
been amazing.
So we've helped tons of youthpastors grow the size and health
of their youth ministry and wewant to invite you to be a part
of that as well, because maybeyou're just sort of feeling
stuck in a rut, maybe you don'tknow what to do next, maybe you
(28:49):
just have a vague plan in yourmind of what you're doing and
you want some real help to getyou from where you are to where
you want to go.
So if that sounds likesomething you've been looking
for, go togrowyouryouthministrycom and
check it out for more details.
(29:11):
All right, let's get back to theepisode.
I guess we'll wrap up by sayingone phrase that I've heard over
and over and over againthroughout my ministry when it
comes to numbers is our seniorpastor always says healthy
things by nature grow.
Now, I'm not saying if you'renot growing, you're unhealthy
overall, but there might be anarea that you just need to
diagnose and get in there withyour toolbox and kind of fix and
(29:33):
see if that excels, acceleratesyour growth.
And it's crazy because a lot ofour listeners give us that
feedback of like, hey, thisepisode you address this, and I
started implementing it and Iwatched our numbers grow.
So it was like just one areathat you were kind of missing
and you were like, ah, I neverthought of doing this with our
(29:56):
events or this with our game, orthis with our team, and so I
don't know what that area is foryou.
But I just want to end on ahopeful.
Note that if you notice adownward trend, just start
trying a ton of stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
That's what I do, but make sure you're only doing one
or two things at a time.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Instead of we just changed 40 things.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
No, I don't know which is the thing that did or
didn't do it, or whatever.
That's a great point, and Ithink that was what I did when I
first started.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It was like, and really that's like I feel like
that's the capacity you probablyhave.
Anyways, let's just tweak thisone thing you know for this two
weeks or whatever it is yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And then it kind of just becomes a part of your
ministry.
I remember thinking we have noworship, we need to get worship,
and that's what I did.
Okay, solved.
We don't have a studentleadership team.
I need a student leadershipteam, I need a student
leadership team.
Worked on that, solved, kept it.
We don't boom roasted, we don'thave a cool camp.
Let me redo our camp and workon that.
Okay, got it.
And so it was just likebuilding brick by brick by brick
(30:57):
, one at a time, and then when Ifelt like I felt like I had a
good structure, then I wouldjust start trying weird stuff,
like I wonder if they would likethis little like tradition, and
then see if it was, if it stuckand was fun and was magnetic.
Yeah, nah, we didn't like it.
Okay, let's try some other coolthing.
And oh, it was here for aseason.
And then you start to learnover time your own ministry and
(31:19):
culture and what the people wantand what makes things stick and
what makes people excited andyou keep those things.
But don't be afraid to trysomething and not keep it around
for the end of time.
Always be consistent withmeeting.
But as you add, in little funtraditions, like a million years
ago I bought this thing fromdoug fields and josh griffin
(31:41):
about the impossible shot andI'm like we'll try it, whatever,
still doing it.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And yours is different than how they normally
do it, but the idea is the same, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like it's a little icebreaker we do and kids love
it.
They love it and it's so fun andit's been a staple.
But then we've done otherthings, like we used to do other
icebreakers, and I was like, ohno, we're not going to do these
anymore.
So just kind of mess with it,kind of plug different things in
and see what sticks and what'sfun, and experiment with your
(32:14):
ministry.
Honestly, that's one of thethings I love the most about my
job.
You know, I hope your church isthe same.
I'm not like I don't have toget approval for every idea I
ever have, it's just like youknow you know, I wonder this,
and why don't we do this kind ofthing and let's give it a try?
What do we have to lose?
You know it's not a bad thing.
(32:34):
If we like it, we'll keep it Ifwe don't move on to the next
idea.
But just be open to trying alot of different ideas and just
seeing which ones are good andand then tweak it if it needs it
.
But yeah, just play around,experiment.
You know it could always leadto the thing right.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You know you mentioned that line that I've
heard a lot of people say it ishealthy, things grow, which is
true, and there's alwayssomebody that will usually say,
yeah, but weeds.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I have thought that too.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Here's the thing, mold grows, true, but in all of
those situations like what doesa healthy weed look like A
growing weed?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
We just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So if you're feeding into it the wrong thing, it will
grow.
So the point of this entireepisode, if you couldn't pick up
on it, is growth is a goodthing, tells a story, but
doesn't tell all the story.
Like you're saying, you'relooking to grow in a healthy way
.
That's his entire podcast,because episodes one through.
However, we're at right now,200 and something is to grow
(33:37):
healthy.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Absolutely, because there's things that are big that
are unhealthy.
Like you, like, I used toalways think, yeah, but I can
think of this huge church and Idon't think that's healthy,
because not because they're big,and so we have to get away from
that mindset too.
Well, if it's a mega church,it's unhealthy, I already know
it.
It's like don't be so quick tojudge, but sometimes big things
(33:58):
are unhealthy, sometimes smallthings are unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Sometimes medium things are unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
100 sometimes medium things are unhealthy sometimes
average things are, so it's likeyou can't just like look at it
and say, and so many people willdo that, big equals bad right
and some people are like no bigmust equal good right small bad,
oh no, small must be good.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Right, it doesn't work that way right, which is,
again, numbers only tell part ofthe full story.
So another thing to considerand I'm speaking to all of you,
I'm looking into the cameraright now is that I think if
you're here, especially ifyou've made it this far into
this episode, good for you.
You're doing a great job andyou're looking to improve and
(34:40):
that is important, and I feellike God has you where you need
to be, in the ministry that youneed to be, and you need to keep
pouring into the students thatyou have and are always pushing
towards bringing more of thosestudents in, more of their
friends in.
But I feel like you are whereyou're supposed to be.
You just keep getting betterfrom there.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Wow, Jeff.
And that, friends, that wasJeff's final thought on
Thursday's episode oh, Jeff andthat friends, that was Jeff's
final thought on Thursday'sepisode, let's do a community
comment of the day.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
This comes from Shane Coker who says doing our second
lock-in at the end of the month.
I think he means second overallKind of sounded like second
lock-in in that month.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Wow, he is just fighting off more than any of us
can chew.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I think I read that wrong.
Last year we had eight students.
This year we've already passed20 registrations.
Hey-o, it's a small ministrythat is growing at such a fast
pace and these videos havehelped in so many ways.
Yes, that is awesome to hear,shane.
We really appreciate it and weappreciate you guys watching and
listening.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And we'll see you next time.
Do numbers really matter inyouth ministry?
And if so, how so?
That's what we're doing.
Sound like Dr Seuss?
If so, how so?
Who so?
You so we so she so Be so Do.
What are your numbers trying to tell you in youth
ministry?
That's what we're talking abouttoday on the Ministry Coach
Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Ministry Coach Podcast where we
give you weekly tips and tacticsto help you fast track the
growth and health of your youthministry.
If this is the first time,we're meeting.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
My name is Jeff Laskola and this is Kristen
Laskola, and I would like toknow if this is the first time
we're meeting.
Maybe drop a comment below andtell us if this is your very
first episode.
That would be really cool tohear because the topic we're
talking about today might bringsome new listeners, because if
you're a youth pastor, numbersis a hot topic and it can be a
(00:49):
sore subject.
It can be a source of pride forsome.
It could be a sense of or asource of insecurity for others,
depending on what those numbersare.
And I think, regardless if yournumbers are a sense of pride
(01:09):
for you or a source ofinsecurity for you, all of us
have done pastor math with ournumbers.
So pastor math is like youinflate your numbers by like 10
or so you know, or you take thehighest number you've ever.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think that's usually what it is and that
becomes your average exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, how many students do you have on a given
week and you think of thehighest number?
You can think of that you'veever had.
And then you round up right andthen that's your highest,
that's your average attendance,and I don't think any of us are
intentionally like I'm going tolie about this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
But there's just this .
Well, maybe, but hopefully not.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I mean, I just think there's this need in us to
inflate them a little bitbecause, whether we like to
admit it or not, I think ournumbers are tied into our value
and nobody would say that.
But it's this just understoodthing like, wow, you have a
(02:11):
youth ministry of a thousand.
Whoa, you're legit.
Oh, you only have two kids.
And we will spiritualize it andwe'll say no, it's fine, but
deep down, we wonder and it?
And we'll say no, it's fine,but deep down we wonder like and
it's okay to wonder, it's good.
Actually, and that's what we'regoing to talk about today is
(02:31):
like well, what?
Not necessarily like numbersbeing good or bad.
Let's look at it in a way ofnumbers telling a storybers
don't tell us everything.
That's what our senior pastoralways says.
He's like numbers don't tell usthe whole story, but they do
tell us a story, and so youcan't put well, if it's big,
(02:55):
it's good, If it's small, it'sbad, it's not as concrete and
simplistic as that, in additionto the story it's telling, are
the numbers going up or are thenumbers going down in a trend
setting?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
jumping ahead, silly goose I figured I would, why not
?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
you're a trendsetter, jeff, you're brilliant,
something like that.
Well, yeah, so we're gonna saytoday well, what question should
we be asking ourselves to?
To sort of try to pull out thestory that they're trying to
tell?
us about what's going on,because they are an indicator.
And here's why numbers matter.
I love what this pastor said.
(03:32):
He said numbers matter becausepeople matter.
Every number has a name, everyname has a story and every story
matters to God.
And so we can't just say, oh,numbers don't matter.
Well, yes and no, because ifyou look at it, it's like well,
I mean, number one is a person,number two is a person.
(03:53):
So if you're assigning peopleto these numbers, well then they
do matter if they're people.
It's just numbers don't matterin the sense that they don't
tell us how the end all be allstory of how valuable our
ministry is or how effective itis or how dynamic it is or how
good we are as a pastor.
(04:14):
That is where they can'tcommunicate everything.
But they do matter in the sensethat they reflect real souls
like real people and it's goodto.
I guess.
Today I want to have kind oflike a healthier relationship
and a healthier perspective onnumbers.
(04:35):
So first, are you even takingaccurate attendance and
consistent attendance?
So, like, do you know what yournumbers are recently accurately
, like you know?
Here's what I would say a greatplace to start is you don't take
attendance consistently andaccurately.
(04:56):
That is a great place to startfrom.
This episode of find a systemthat works for your setting, of
how you can make sure you knowwho's actually coming through
the doors.
That's a huge step of.
I mean, knowing who's cominghelps in all kinds of ways with
discipleship, assimilation.
You know being seen, known andkept up with.
(05:18):
You know tending the flock likecaring for the sheep.
You got to know who the sheepare and if they're coming or
going or where have they been.
It just tells you so muchinformation.
So if you don't even takeattendance yet, please start
doing that.
Secondly, what we want to startto look at is if we are
(05:38):
trending up and this is kind ofwhere you were going a second
ago, I think if you areconsistently trending up or
consistently trending down orstaying the same.
Here's how you can find thatout.
Let's assume you have beendoing your attendance for
however long you've been inministry.
What you want to do is pull thenumbers at least from the last
(06:03):
calendar year.
If you have it, I think itwould be better to go back a
couple of years, year to date.
So right now it's April, soApril 2025 is current.
Go back to April 2024.
What was our consistent oraverage number for the spring of
(06:23):
2024 and 2023.
And let's compare those twothings and see where are we
trending when we compare it tothe years past.
Are we going up?
And if so, then you can get alittle more specific and say by
how much?
So, are we growing by 10%?
Are we ready for that 10%growth?
(06:45):
Are we shrinking by 10%?
Now we're going to talk alittle bit more specific,
because even that can't tell usthe full picture, but it's
really good.
It's a really good startingplace.
And a little side note if you'rea pastor who is going to be
pitching for anything with yoursenior pastor, maybe you want to
(07:06):
raise, maybe you want a budgetincrease, maybe you want to hire
another staff member.
This is very good informationto know.
So if you can make a case forwhy you need the extra money in
your budget or why you need theextra staff member because you
can clearly show an upward trendin your youth ministry, it's a
lot easier to make a case thanjust I want one, you know, or I?
(07:29):
Why do you want to raise?
Cause I want more money.
Inflation, you know Well, ofcourse.
But can you make a case for?
Well, hey, I've grown.
We've grown consistently 10%every single year.
More families are coming andyou know, the bigger the
ministry, I mean, the more careinvolved and the more complex it
(07:50):
becomes involved and the morecomplex it becomes.
And there you go, you made moreof a case.
Here's why that, even if youcan show a graph of where your
numbers are trending, here's whythat doesn't show completely
the full story and why you haveto get a little more in detail
(08:10):
with your numbers, is becausethere's this backdoor factor
that might be skewing thingswithout you realizing it.
For example, getting newstudents is really exciting,
like some youth groups are like.
We get new faces every singleweek.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Cool.
I'm glad they're inviting theirfriends, your overall numbers
aren't going up and that is likeshould be going off like a
warning bell to you so if youare noticing new faces every
single week, yet your numbershave either downtrended or have
stayed the same, that means theback door is gaping open right
(08:49):
now meaning people are coming inthe front door and they're just
walking right out the back door.
In simpler terms, you're notretaining anyone and that should
go off, like I said, like awarning bell for you.
So then you have to start toask deeper questions here.
Why aren't they staying?
So if somebody was eager enoughto come and to visit and to see
(09:13):
, but they didn't stay, we'vegot a problem and it's okay to
acknowledge we have a problem.
I think sometimes people don'twant to look at numbers in their
budget, their bank account,their checking account, you know
, because they're like la, la,la, la, it's too scary to really
dive in, and so I challenge you.
If you're kind of avoidingdigging into the nitty-gritty, I
(09:38):
would challenge you.
You've got to ask thesequestions and be brave, because
it doesn't mean you're bad, itdoesn't mean your youth group's
bad, it just means something'soff and you can probably fix it.
Know, unless it's some liketoxic environment and, like you
know, it's like some weird cult,it's like, well, you should be
(09:58):
able to fix it.
You just have to figure outwhere's the leak you know.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
So Because the greatest thing any youth pastor
not should say the greatestthing One of the best things for
a youth pastor is when you'reseeing these new faces, because
it means people are invitingpeople.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It must be a good thing, it must be a good thing,
but then, like you said, ifyou're not keeping them there,
then they're.
Yeah, there's obviouslysomething going on.
It's hard to get them in thedoor sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It's like the last thing you want to do is once you
finally get them, oh, they'renot coming back.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, and we can talk through some of that.
Well, first of all, I wouldrecommend Larry Osborne's book
Sticky Church and that whatwe're talking about right now.
That is the entire premise ofthe book of how to close the
back door.
Like people want to come, howdo you keep them from just
sneaking out the back door?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And you wonder where did all these people go?
And if they're middle schoolers, you definitely don't want them
sneaking anywhere.
Lock the doors, securitycameras.
We have a whole episode on that.
Don't want them sneakinganywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So lock the doors.
Security cameras we have awhole episode on that.
Can't trust them.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Love them, love them.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Can't trust them.
So, some of them you can't Um.
So if you're noticing, yeah,that's totally us, and what
we're saying right now isresonating with you.
Here would be my guess withoutknowing your youth ministry,
without knowing you, withoutknowing exactly what is going on
, here's what I would guess isthat your discipleship model is
(11:19):
broken.
So I think people cannot getconnected or grow.
So it's kind of like a flash inthe pan type of ministry where
maybe they heard the gospel forthe first time.
They got saved.
They were saved, they wereexcited, they were wanting to
(11:40):
follow and know what's next.
And then they want to know whatwas next.
And then they wanted to know.
You know what I mean.
You never gave them a next step.
You just were like kind of thecome, get saved, be excited, and
then the next batch of peoplecome and get saved and be
excited.
So one way that we put this atour church is that we're
believer focused, but seekersensitive, meaning that we're
(12:03):
most of our efforts go towarddiscipleship, but it doesn't
mean that we're leaving the newperson behind and that they feel
like, oh my gosh, they're sofar ahead of me Like I can never
keep up.
I can never, you know can'tunderstand the terminology.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You know the traditions, maybe, that they're
doing that Like it's like.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I don't know what this even means, so, and it
doesn't mean so dumb it down,you know, or leave out the hard
truth of the gospel?
Not at all.
But in the way that you speakum little things or like we
always have bibles available,it's not like well, you didn't
bring your bible, well, you'renot in our club it's like oh,
you don't have one here you go,take it home, you can have it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Or the simple things like, if you're going in up,
we're speaking in the book ofrevelation and maybe, pointing
out, you go to your bible.
It's the very last book.
It's like, well, a lot, lot ofyour students that have been
there for a long time are goingto be like duh, you know, I know
that.
But it's that for that one kidthat's like.
This is the first time I'veheld a Bible Sure and now you
(13:08):
tell me it's at the back.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I know where to go and I feel like weird, like
looking over.
Do you always patronize us?
We know where the book of Jamesis.
And the pastors are like.
I'm not saying it for you.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
If you know where it is.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
congratulations, good for you.
What you do is you kind ofspeak for a little bit to give
them time to find it.
I was coaching one of ourspeakers this weekend and I told
him like hey, you've got togive them time.
You said Matthew six, 24.
(13:40):
And then you just started.
I'm like the kids need time,you know so, and you make it
seem natural like all right, foryou knew people were going to
give you a couple minutes, butyou just kind of talk and okay,
let me set this up for you whileyou're getting there or
something.
So it's just you're allowingpeople to to try to keep pace
and not make it so inaccessible.
(14:01):
So all that to say if your backdoor is wide open, it's
probably a discipleship thing isthat you're not giving people a
clear next step, like, okay,I'm saved, I'm excited, I want
to do this thing.
Now what do?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
It's not just like the same message every weekend
and it's like, okay, now I'mready to sink my teeth into
something.
So you never want to be thatyouth group.
That is only where people cometo get saved, but they can't
come to be discipled and grow.
You need both.
It's not like so don't getsaved.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It's like no, of course you need both, whereas
the opposite is true as well, ifit's just like a new person is
coming and be like I have noidea what you're talking about.
I don't think this is for me,because it's so.
I'm clueless here.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Right, right, right it's, and there's definitely an
art to it and, depending on thechurch culture, some churches
are better at one particularaspect than the others.
Where I work, we just reallyfocus on discipleship.
We want to create lifelongJesus followers, that they learn
how to intersect every part oftheir life and obedience to
(15:12):
Jesus.
Not just one exciting decisionand a cool, emotional night and
that was that, but giving themwhere to go next.
So like, okay, well, where dothey go next?
They get in a small group, theystart serving somewhere.
They, you know, junior hires.
Giving, I think, is important.
So we sponsor a CompassionInternational kid and we
(15:34):
challenge them to givegenerously to that kid, you know
.
So it's like giving smallgroups serving, using their
gifts and serving, and thatcreates a more sticky
environment because now theyhave relationships, now they are
growing in their small groupdiscussion, they're growing
alongside peers of the samestage and station in life.
(15:55):
They're being challenged togive sacrificially, whether it's
their time or their parents'money or you know, whatever it
might be.
So there's these next steps.
Or we have another discipleshipgroup thing called the deep end
, where they have biblicalchallenges of memorizing the
books of the Bible andmemorizing scripture and they
get little like chaos bucks forit that they can spend at the
(16:19):
snack shack, getting them to goto camps and events.
You know, there's alwayssomething to put in front of
them of like a next step.
So if you're noticing that backdoor is wide open, I think
sitting down with your team andsaying what's our discipleship
model and if it's crickets andeveryone's like what are you
talking about?
I don't know Then you might belike there it is.
(16:43):
Like there's the back door andyou can start to work on that if
your numbers, if you'renoticing they're trending down.
So that would kind of be likewhat we just talked about would
be numbers probably staying kindof the same, new faces but no
growth.
So now let's talk about ifthey're actually trending down.
(17:03):
Now this one's a sore subjectand we're here with you, we're
holding your hand because I knowthat.
That is because I know thatthat is.
We take it very personally asyouth pastors and we think I'm
doing a bad job, I'm going tolose my job, I am embarrassed I.
What is wrong with me?
And then the toxic comparisonstuff comes in and you start
(17:27):
looking at different youthgroups on Instagram or in your
own community and you're like,why does everyone love them and
nobody loves us?
And we're trying our best.
And maybe if I had a $30,000budget, I could do cool stuff
too.
Maybe if I had a staff of 10, Icould do cool stuff too, and we
start to throw this pity party.
Can you tell that?
(17:48):
I've been there and so I knowyour thoughts and I know it's
hard.
But again, let's be brave andask some questions of, instead
of blaming everyone else.
Well, because they're notcommitted, because they have
sports and sports are moreimportant.
Or I don't have a big enoughbudget.
So we think of all thesereasons why we're trending
(18:09):
downward, but it could not haveanything to do with us.
It's all their fault, you know,and that's a pretty bad place to
be, because then you're never.
You have no hope at that point,like you're never going to be
moving toward an upward trend.
I mean, at least give it a tryinstead of just what was me kind
(18:30):
of.
So here's some questions Iwould be asking if I were
downward trending.
I would be asking number oneare we effectively meeting the
age group that we're intendingto meet?
So I think sometimes youthpastors with good intentions
will aim too high for theirstudents, or maybe too low.
(18:53):
So if you're, let's just goright in the middle and that's
where I'm at middle school.
You need to make sure you're onpar with their level of
maturity or lack thereof.
You can't expect them to behigh schoolers and design a high
school group.
If you're a high school pastor,please don't try to design a
college group because you'retrying to like raise the bar on
(19:15):
them.
It's like raise the bar in adifferent way but don't like
hold them to a high standard ofbehavior, fine, but don't try to
create, like this coffee shopenvironment because it's cool or
something, when you have kidswho are being in class all day
and just want to throw adodgeball at each other.
Know your audience.
(19:36):
And I think sometimes you needto get more realistic of.
Are you serving what they'reeating?
You know what I mean, and thatis where the pride has to get
abandoned, and don't try to fita square into a peg hole.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Write it in the comments below.
Don't try to fit a round squareinto a peg hole.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Square peg in a round hole.
Peg hole, a place to put pegs.
Oh, I've got the perfect,perfect peg for that, then where
is?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm going to stop talking.
Um, where are we?
Oh yeah, like, don't try tocreate an environment for the
wrong age group.
That could be a reason youmight be trending downward.
I would also ask are weinconsistent or disorganized?
I really, really, really, assummer is coming up, encourage,
(20:50):
please, don't cancel for thesummer.
I know it's everything withinyou wants to just push through.
Please, just keep your momentumgoing.
So what if people are traveling?
So what if your numbers dip alittle bit?
Hold on to whatever momentumyou have just keep it.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
A lot of people just to camp on this for a second.
A lot of people say I want togive my leaders a break, which
to me it's like there are somany youth ministries that don't
stop during the summer but alsohave leaders who aren't burnt
out.
If your leaders are gettingburnt out and only working, or
only working volunteering ninemonths.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
There's a different problem going on.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It's not that they shouldn't be burnt out, and
they're only doing nine monthsand you're giving them three or
two or whatever.
It is off.
So consider that you know likekeep that in the back of your
mind.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Good point.
Yeah, I mean, my leaders arenot burnt out, are you guys?
Are you listening?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
They're still showing up.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
They're still showing up.
Well, and here's the thing too,I have a two leader system.
So, like one of them went tothis really cool music festival
last week, but her co-leader wasthere, so it's not like I can
never miss a Tuesday, it's likebe there and 75% of the time I
things come up things come upand I always am flexible too
(22:07):
with like you need to be late,you need to go to work, you need
to pick up your kid, your car,like do whatever you need to do,
you know, and so making sure Ithink you bring up a good point
that your leaders aren't burntout.
So I mean, we got off on aslight little rabbit trail, but
you're welcome you know, pleasedon't stop for the summer.
So that's a a potentialdiagnosis of why you might be
(22:29):
trending downward.
Or a disorganized thing.
Like can people evenparticipate if they wanted to?
Like last week's episode wasall about the information that
you're giving online on yourwebsite or on your social media.
Is it working for you orworking against you?
Like, can somebody look at youronline presence and say, oh, I
(22:51):
know exactly when and where tomeet and everything's crystal
clear and if I have anyquestions, I know exactly who to
contact?
Or is it like has I mean,there's cobwebs in this website?
I don't think anyone's been inhere in decades and that is
definitely the wrong year.
I don't think anyone's been inhere in decades, and that is
definitely the wrong year and Idon't know about this.
And so it's hard to trendupward when no fresh
(23:14):
communication is going out on aconsistent basis.
So that's something you need tolook at.
Are you fun, friendly andenergetic?
I think sometimes youth groupsare built for the people who are
already there, so the friendlyfactor is a little lacking and I
mean, please neverunderestimate the power of fun,
(23:36):
like even as an adult.
Like I look forward to thenights of our Bible study, like
when we play a game and have atreat and now we'll talk about
the Bible, but I just want tolike be human for 30 minutes and
have some fun.
We've been working all day anddealing, you know, kids and
homework and sports and work andeverything, and it's like let's
(23:58):
just like, ah, something tolook forward to you know, and
you want the youth group to notjust be well, we just come in
and get right into the word, youknow.
And you want the youth group tonot just be well, we just come
in and get right into the word,you know, because that's all
we're here for.
It's like true.
However, you've got to have thehuman component in there of
like we're all.
I mean we're all just lookingfor fun and connection and a
(24:24):
breather, and, and we do want toget in the word.
I don't want to exchange onefor the other, but make sure
it's an energetic, funenvironment that people come and
they leave filled up of like oh, that was good and one leads to
the other, like the fun partcomponent is leading to.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
when you go into your small groups, some of those
walls are broken down.
You feel more comfortablearound these people.
You know them better throughgames, through fun.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, it has a definite purpose to it.
And then here's one that youmight hate me for.
But are you staying culturallyrelevant, without compromising
beliefs, of course, orcompromising truth?
But staying culturally relevantjust shows that you understand
the times, you understand thetrends, you understand what's
(25:11):
going on in teen culture rightnow.
You don't have to dress like ateenager by any means, but you
have to kind of have like an earto the ground of a little bit
knowing their world right youknow to stay culturally relevant
.
I remember that being such a bigdeal when I was in high school
and hearing our pastor talk andthen he'd throw something in.
(25:34):
I was 14 and he would be likeyeah, and like reference
something in our world.
I'm like how did he know aboutthat?
you know, but it like made mefeel so like oh, you get it and
so the bottom line is, the goalis to create a youth ministry
that checks all these boxes and,more obviously, this isn't an
(25:54):
exhaustive list.
There's way more in animportant things.
But just sort of looking at,hey, is there something in our
program that might beresponsible for the downward
trend, is there an area of lack?
And again, chances are youcould fix it pretty quickly.
Like the things we listed arenot like, oh well, I don't know.
(26:15):
Let's like do like a yearoverhaul I mean you could
probably get it done in like twoweeks of like implementing
something to kind of inject oneof these in there if you notice
it lacking, and so kind of like,before we blame, the culture
and sports and the apathy andthe, you know well this church
(26:36):
has more resources and that'swhy everyone's going there.
Before we just blame, justremember, when people really
want something, they will waitin a really long line and go out
of their way to get it.
Chick-fil-a proves that over andover and over again.
Dutch bros yeah, I don'tunderstand it.
Maybe I should drink it one timeand I'll understand.
But sometimes a line I see fordutch bros are in and out, or
(27:00):
chick-fil-a it's like.
Or even the Costco gas line,you know if, if they really want
it, they will find a way,reroute their you know way home
to go by Costco to get the gasor go get waffle fries,
chick-fil-a or whatever it is.
I mean if, if it's good enoughand they can't resist it, they
will find a way.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And knowing human nature is like that.
How can we be that thing that'sirresistible, to where it's
like, yeah, it's a late night,or yeah, I had to come after
sports, or yeah, but oh, it's sogood, it's so good.
I can't not go.
And that's the feedback thatwe've been getting from parents,
which makes me feel like, okay,we're really hitting this age
(27:43):
group where, where they are, andwe've created something that
they are excited for.
It's not for high schoolers,it's not for elementary kids,
it's for junior like, and that'sone of our mission statements.
We say we speak junior high andthat's how we describe
ourselves to parents, and Ithink it's really true, because
they will do anything to getthere.
(28:04):
So what is that part of yourministry where, instead of
complaining because that's notgoing to get us anywhere, or
blaming, thinking, okay, how canwe become this irresistible
place where people have just gotto be?
So, hey, friend, I just wantedto interrupt this episode for a
second to let you know about anawesome opportunity for you and
(28:27):
your youth ministry.
So last year we launched ourcourse and coaching program
called Youth Ministry GrowthAccelerator and the response has
been amazing.
So we've helped tons of youthpastors grow the size and health
of their youth ministry and wewant to invite you to be a part
of that as well, because maybeyou're just sort of feeling
stuck in a rut, maybe you don'tknow what to do next, maybe you
(28:49):
just have a vague plan in yourmind of what you're doing and
you want some real help to getyou from where you are to where
you want to go.
So if that sounds likesomething you've been looking
for, go togrowyouryouthministrycom and
check it out for more details.
(29:11):
All right, let's get back to theepisode.
I guess we'll wrap up by sayingone phrase that I've heard over
and over and over againthroughout my ministry when it
comes to numbers is our seniorpastor always says healthy
things by nature grow.
Now, I'm not saying if you'renot growing, you're unhealthy
overall, but there might be anarea that you just need to
diagnose and get in there withyour toolbox and kind of fix and
(29:33):
see if that excels, acceleratesyour growth.
And it's crazy because a lot ofour listeners give us that
feedback of like, hey, thisepisode you address this, and I
started implementing it and Iwatched our numbers grow.
So it was like just one areathat you were kind of missing
and you were like, ah, I neverthought of doing this with our
(29:56):
events or this with our game, orthis with our team, and so I
don't know what that area is foryou.
But I just want to end on ahopeful.
Note that if you notice adownward trend, just start
trying a ton of stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
That's what I do, but make sure you're only doing one
or two things at a time.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Instead of we just changed 40 things.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
No, I don't know which is the thing that did or
didn't do it, or whatever.
That's a great point, and Ithink that was what I did when I
first started.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It was like, and really that's like I feel like
that's the capacity you probablyhave.
Anyways, let's just tweak thisone thing you know for this two
weeks or whatever it is yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And then it kind of just becomes a part of your
ministry.
I remember thinking we have noworship, we need to get worship,
and that's what I did.
Okay, solved.
We don't have a studentleadership team.
I need a student leadershipteam, I need a student
leadership team.
Worked on that, solved, kept it.
We don't boom roasted, we don'thave a cool camp.
Let me redo our camp and workon that.
Okay, got it.
And so it was just likebuilding brick by brick by brick
(30:57):
, one at a time, and then when Ifelt like I felt like I had a
good structure, then I wouldjust start trying weird stuff,
like I wonder if they would likethis little like tradition, and
then see if it was, if it stuckand was fun and was magnetic.
Yeah, nah, we didn't like it.
Okay, let's try some other coolthing.
And oh, it was here for aseason.
And then you start to learnover time your own ministry and
(31:19):
culture and what the people wantand what makes things stick and
what makes people excited andyou keep those things.
But don't be afraid to trysomething and not keep it around
for the end of time.
Always be consistent withmeeting.
But as you add, in little funtraditions, like a million years
ago I bought this thing fromdoug fields and josh griffin
(31:41):
about the impossible shot andI'm like we'll try it, whatever,
still doing it.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And yours is different than how they normally
do it, but the idea is the same, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like it's a little icebreaker we do and kids love
it.
They love it and it's so fun andit's been a staple.
But then we've done otherthings, like we used to do other
icebreakers, and I was like, ohno, we're not going to do these
anymore.
So just kind of mess with it,kind of plug different things in
and see what sticks and what'sfun, and experiment with your
(32:14):
ministry.
Honestly, that's one of thethings I love the most about my
job.
You know, I hope your church isthe same.
I'm not like I don't have toget approval for every idea I
ever have, it's just like youknow you know, I wonder this,
and why don't we do this kind ofthing and let's give it a try?
What do we have to lose?
You know it's not a bad thing.
(32:34):
If we like it, we'll keep it Ifwe don't move on to the next
idea.
But just be open to trying alot of different ideas and just
seeing which ones are good andand then tweak it if it needs it
.
But yeah, just play around,experiment.
You know it could always leadto the thing right.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You know you mentioned that line that I've
heard a lot of people say it ishealthy, things grow, which is
true, and there's alwayssomebody that will usually say,
yeah, but weeds.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I have thought that too.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Here's the thing, mold grows, true, but in all of
those situations like what doesa healthy weed look like A
growing weed?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
We just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So if you're feeding into it the wrong thing, it will
grow.
So the point of this entireepisode, if you couldn't pick up
on it, is growth is a goodthing, tells a story, but
doesn't tell all the story.
Like you're saying, you'relooking to grow in a healthy way
.
That's his entire podcast,because episodes one through.
However, we're at right now,200 and something is to grow
(33:37):
healthy.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Absolutely, because there's things that are big that
are unhealthy.
Like you, like, I used toalways think, yeah, but I can
think of this huge church and Idon't think that's healthy,
because not because they're big,and so we have to get away from
that mindset too.
Well, if it's a mega church,it's unhealthy, I already know
it.
It's like don't be so quick tojudge, but sometimes big things
(33:58):
are unhealthy, sometimes smallthings are unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Sometimes medium things are unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
100 sometimes medium things are unhealthy sometimes
average things are, so it's likeyou can't just like look at it
and say, and so many people willdo that, big equals bad right
and some people are like no bigmust equal good right small bad,
oh no, small must be good.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Right, it doesn't work that way right, which is,
again, numbers only tell part ofthe full story.
So another thing to considerand I'm speaking to all of you,
I'm looking into the cameraright now is that I think if
you're here, especially ifyou've made it this far into
this episode, good for you.
You're doing a great job andyou're looking to improve and
(34:40):
that is important, and I feellike God has you where you need
to be, in the ministry that youneed to be, and you need to keep
pouring into the students thatyou have and are always pushing
towards bringing more of thosestudents in, more of their
friends in.
But I feel like you are whereyou're supposed to be.
You just keep getting betterfrom there.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Wow, Jeff.
And that, friends, that wasJeff's final thought on
Thursday's episode oh, Jeff andthat friends, that was Jeff's
final thought on Thursday'sepisode, let's do a community
comment of the day.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
This comes from Shane Coker who says doing our second
lock-in at the end of the month.
I think he means second overallKind of sounded like second
lock-in in that month.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Wow, he is just fighting off more than any of us
can chew.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I think I read that wrong.
Last year we had eight students.
This year we've already passed20 registrations.
Hey-o, it's a small ministrythat is growing at such a fast
pace and these videos havehelped in so many ways.
Yes, that is awesome to hear,shane.
We really appreciate it and weappreciate you guys watching and
listening.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
And we'll see you next time.
Do numbers really matter inyouth ministry?
And if so, how so?
That's what we're doing.
Sound like Dr Seuss?
If so, how so?
Who so?
You so we so she so Be so Do.
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