July 4, 2025 • 51 mins
Minnesota takes pride in civic participation, but there’s a leadership deficit in our state. Leadership, as well as volunteering and charity, is crucial for addressing community needs and opportunities.
How do we confront generational changes of social affiliations and people leaving rural areas? In this episode, we focus on the challenge of collaborative leadership with Dr. Kathy Quick.
“Leadership is about adaptation. It matters that everybody be a good communicator. It matters that everybody have some degree of empathy…not be so overtaken by their own ego and title that they forget about the followers. And it helps if they do have a mission.”
Dr. Kathy Quick is the Gross Family Chair for Public and Nonprofit Leadership at the Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota. She is also an Academic Co-Director of the Center for Integrative Leadership, a university-wide center dedicated to building leadership capacity across the business, government, and nonprofit sectors to work together to advance the public good.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Can a leader be made?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
I think so.
I mean, going back to theargument of whether leaders are
born or made, I'm certainly morein the camp of leaders are made.
I actually think that leadershipis something that any individual
(00:20):
is capable of.
And I, I don't mean that, um,every kid in the class gets a
prize for being the best.
Right?
But I do think that actuallyanyone is capable of, uh, being
coached, being led, beingencouraged, um, to play to their
strengths, to find theirstrengths, to develop some
courage.
Um, I do think some people havesome natural advantages.
(00:42):
It certainly, uh.
You know, there are gender rolesand things like that that lead
people to be seen as leaders indifferent kinds of domains, but
I think it's mostly a matter of,um, of training and, and
experimentation and growth.
Our guest today is the GrossFamily Chair for public and
nonprofit leadership at theHumphrey School of Public
(01:03):
Affairs at the University ofMinnesota.
She's also one of two academicco-directors of the Center for
Integrative Leadership, auniversity-wide center dedicated
to building leadership capacityacross the business, government,
and nonprofit sectors to worktogether to advance the public
good.
She also works as a statespecialist in leadership and
(01:26):
civic engagement for Universityof Minnesota Extension.
Welcome, Dr.
Kathy Quick.
Thank you.
So you were originally hail fromrural Pennsylvania.
I worked professionally for 14years before returning to grad
school.
Transitioned to professor andscholar.
Spent most of your twenties inIndonesia.
(01:46):
We have so much to talk about.
You worked as an environmentaladvocate, an urban planning
consultant, then served as acommunity development manager
for two cities in California.
Currently live with your familyand two cats in St.
Paul.
What are the cat's names?
Oliver and Marigold.
Are they pals most of the time?
Most.
Okay.
Yes, that's what I thought.
(02:07):
You also enjoy time with friendswalking in either cities or in
nature, reading, cooking,knitting, meeting, all kinds of
people.
Bachelor's degree in biology, amaster's degree in city planning
from the University ofCalifornia, Berkeley, and a PhD
in Urban Planning and publicpolicy from the University of
California Irvine.
(02:28):
How many years was that inschool?
A lot.
A lot.
I had to take a break and workfor a while.
Okay.
Which I loved actually.
Um, I think having theprofessional background, uh, is
very much an advantage, um, inthe kind of teaching that I do.
Bringing those two worldstogether, I.
Will you share a little bit moreabout the Center for Integrative
(02:49):
Leadership?
I hear the acronym saidfrequently m Yelp, is that
correct?
Correct.
Tell us more.
Okay.
Um, the Center for IntegrativeLeadership was founded in 2006,
and it is still the only, uh,university-based center in the
United States, maybe in theworld.
I'm not sure.
That really trains people in theskills of business, government,
(03:11):
and nonprofit leaders workingtogether on community issues.
Um, so we work, uh, both withgraduate students across the
university, uh, but alsocommunity members across the
state.
On really trying to, uh, findopportunities, seize
opportunities in communities,um, and address problems
together across those sectors.
So you recently spoke at one ofour area conferences, which was
(03:34):
held in St.
Paul and discussed civicleadership development for
thriving communities.
There's a leadership deficit inour communities.
Collaboration is a challenge.
Well, maybe we could start witha leadership deficit.
It came as a surprise to me and,uh, this is from colleagues at
the University of Minnesotaextension, the community
(03:55):
development department.
It's about one in 21 adults inthe state of Minnesota that
would need to serve in aleadership role in order for us
to fulfill just our formalgovernment and formal nonprofit
board leadership positions.
Wow, okay.
That does not include the headof the PTA football coach, boy
(04:17):
scouts leader, church deacon,that person on Main Street that
everybody goes to for businessadvice.
The farmer that everybody goesto for farming advice, you know,
in, in some rural areas of thestate, that's one in nine.
So Wow.
That is a major problem.
Um, a major challenge I thinkfor younger generations.
(04:38):
Um, and I don't know about you,but in the small town that I
wasn't even a small town, therural area where I grew up.
That wasn't one in nine, it waslike one in every 50 or 60 who
was doing five jobs.
Um, and so I'm very devoted tohelping to build, build support
for all of those leaders outthere that are doing the best
they can for their communities.
(05:00):
What do you chalk that up to aleadership deficit?
Is it, is it apathy?
Is it are, are people justassuming in today's world that,
well, somebody else either knowsmore about that or is maybe
better suited for that, or I'mjust not gonna worry about it
because it's very alarming?
It is alarming.
I think part of it really isjust that we have so many
(05:20):
institutions that needattention.
Um, you know, de Tocquevillecame to the United States and
said that the United States wasmarked as a society of
Associations.
It's kind of an American thingto have lots of nonprofits, lots
of community organizations, um,lots of membership
organizations.
I mean, there's just, we kind ofseem to grow them in the United
States, so that's part of it.
(05:41):
All of them take tending and wecan't take for granted that they
will be tended.
But I think there is also achallenge of people leaving
rural areas, their generationalchanges, and a change in how
people are oriented toleadership.
That, um, more and more peoplewant to join organizations that
are affiliated with a habit,with a hobby, with a particular
(06:02):
interest they have, instead ofthe more place-based
institutions like a MasonicLodge or a Rotary, or a Kiwanis
Club, or a Lion, or some ofthose service-based
organizations.
And so there's maybe a littlebit less opportunity for people
to learn and grow into theirleadership.
We've talked a lot about that inthe Masonic context or in the
(06:23):
fraternal organization.
When was it?
In the seventies when moregroups, interest groups were
start specializing in thosecivic groups that had to do with
a specific cause or mission,whether it was eating disorders
or uh, meals for needy people.
Things really branched out intothose areas of special
(06:44):
specialty, which was great, butyet that left some of those just
regular service-basedorganizations seeing fewer
members.
I think that is true.
If you look back to bowlingalone and books like that, that
really discussed this, it doesseem to have really, um, I.
Kind of reached a significanttipping point, um, around the
(07:06):
nineties.
I don't know.
And I try not to talk about whatI don't know, but I think that
does sound right, that it wasaround the seventies that people
started to join moreenvironmental clubs.
Yeah.
The hiking club.
The biking group.
Um, as opposed to those moreplace-based, um, more general
community, civic fabric kind oforganizations.
I love that you mentionedbowling alone.
(07:27):
We hosted a screening of the, ofRobert Putnam's Join or Die
documentary.
Mm-hmm.
In that, the Heritage Center inNovember of 2024.
Mm-hmm.
Had a full house.
What a tremendous body of workhe's put together.
Are you a fan of his, do youreference.
I, you know, as a scholar, thereare a lot of scholars to follow.
(07:48):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Um, here's this one random guy,and I'm like, did you, do you
like him?
Yeah.
Um, yes, I do.
I, I find, um, that work, uh, itcertainly very compelling.
It draws attention to a reallyimportant issue and I think
there, you know, he hasaccomplished what a lot of
scholars aim for, which is toreach a broader audience.
(08:09):
There's so much to unpack withall of this for us in the
Minnesota Freemasons.
And maybe this is a case forseveral other volunteer groups.
Part of our purpose is toelevate our lodge officers into
leadership positions.
(08:31):
How do we prepare them for thatproactively instead of
reactively?
Mm hmm.
What do you mean by reactively?
our organization is structuredin that hierarchical lineup.
So one of our challenges is thatonce a member reaches a certain
(08:53):
office in the lodge, he simplyassumes by virtue of his title
or jewel of office that he is infact a, a bonafide leader.
And by the time that gentlemanis overseeing the lodge, well
we, we just pulled him in.
There isn't always a referencepoint to gauge what level of
skill they may or may not have.
(09:15):
Mm-hmm.
To be in fact said, leader.
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I admire, and I hope that I
understand properly, becauseI've never been part, I, I've
never been a member of a lodge,I don't qualify.
But my understanding is thatthere is a great deal of
(09:36):
attention to ethics.
Ethics in a thoughtful way,thinking through dilemmas of a
leadership, not just saying, um,this is the way, this is not the
way.
Right.
But really more of a process ofdiscernment.
And I firmly believe that inorder for leaders to con to
become successful, they do needcolleagues.
(09:59):
Trusted mentors, loved ones whodo help them to discern what are
their leadership strengths andhow do they play to that.
Now, there are also leadershipneeds that everyone needs to
have.
It.
It matters that everybody be agood communicator.
It matters that everybody havesome degree of empathy.
It matters that people, um, notbe so overtaken by their own ego
(10:21):
and title that they forget aboutthe followers, right.
And the mission, um, it helps ifthey do have a mission.
It's not great if they only havea mission and are not great at
operations.
Right?
You, you need a balance ofskills.
Mm-hmm.
But it's also really importantfor somebody to even conceive of
themselves as a leader if peoplehelp them to see what those
strengths are.
(10:43):
But then you don't just arriveat a position of leadership in
Excel.
You need to have that continuingcabinet or circle or, you know,
friend group, whatever that maybe, that that helps you to
continue, um, to grow.
Safe to say that's a lifelongpursuit.
It is.
And I mean, that's not, Iunderstand what you're saying
(11:04):
about, uh, you know, having aline that people come up through
and that you're recognized andthen, you know, it's inevitable
that you're proceeding alongthat line.
But that happens in nonprofitand government organizations as
well where, or in businesseswhere you've had a long
established CEO that becausethey're the CEO, they're
expected to lead, and yet theyalso need refreshment.
They need renewal and ongoinglearning.
(11:28):
that's so true.
We look at the CEO and justassume, well, that person's got
to be the oracle.
Right.
Their answer, their direction,their quote unquote, leadership,
we just assume is going to besolid and, and take it to the
bank.
Right.
I mean, there's certainlyaccomplishment that's taken them
(11:48):
to that place, but if they'regonna continue to be successful,
leadership really is aboutadaptation as well very often.
And, you know, resilience in theface of challenges, adapting to
new opportunities, resourceconstraints, disruptions, you
didn't imagine interpersonalconflicts.
You know, very few people have afull skillset for any
(12:09):
contingency and it really takesa learning mentality in order to
be able to continue to grow.
there's a big difference betweenJohn Doe being a lodge member
with a new title and actuallypreparing someone on that
trajectory to be an effective, agrowing, uh, self-aware leader.
(12:33):
Yeah.
Not just'cause I'm in charge.
Right.
I I got a off topic a little bitthough.
So let's just talk about the,the deficit though at the
community level.
Can, can I ask you a questionthough?
Yeah.
Where does humility come into,um, into ethics or culture or,
um, personal growth that'sencouraged within the lodge?
(12:56):
Humility is a very importantaspect of an effective leader
that's going to inspire.
Mm-hmm.
I think the discussion that,that occurs at the lodge level
frequently is, is it about beingthe leader in control or is it
distributed competence?
As I've heard it said once.
(13:17):
Yeah.
Right.
Right, and everyone's different.
We rotate through once a year.
Leadership changes every year,and usually, as I'm sure you've
seen many times, someone's justsettling in, getting into that
groove and then the year's over,it's time to switch again.
Right.
And even though there's, it'sfunny, there's a little bit of a
consistency, but there's also alot of differences and that
(13:40):
makes it tricky too.
Yeah.
I could see that there would beadvantages of that, that you
have renewal.
You don't simply get into agroove, but then there is
something good about consistencytoo, so you can kind of settle
in, anticipate work within anenvironment that's a little bit
more stable, but you have yourculture to do that.
The reason I asked abouthumility is because I think that
(14:01):
is a very big part of ongoinglearning and growth, and that
that is really a core part ofbeing successful as a leader,
regardless of what comes at you.
But also humility is part ofmaking connection with the other
people for whom your leadershipis high stakes.
You know, your leadership isnever only about your own
success.
(14:21):
If you're successful as aleader, it's because you are
there with a sense of service tothe broader community, and
humility helps to make thatconnection.
How much does effectivecommunication impact leadership
abilities?
Is that baked into humility,self-awareness?
(14:45):
I think it's a little separate.
I think empathy and humilityhelp with effective
communication, because those areall about seeing your common
humanity, but they'recommunication skills that you
can work on.
I'm too wordy.
I constantly have colleaguesthat are helping me to looking
for the right metaphor.
Trying to tell it in a story.
empathy does play a role inlike, who is this other person
(15:06):
and how am I gonna connect withthem?
And then I often think aboutthose communication skills as,
it's a little bit like goinginto a department store.
'cause you know, you need a pairof pants.
It's like you can reach for thepair of pants that's the pair of
pants that you wear every time.
Or you could say, you know,maybe I'll try something red
today just for the heck of it.
And you put it on and you'relike, oh, that works right.
I you, you can't just, if youwanna be a good communicator,
(15:28):
you can't just constantly be inthe same groove.
You have to experiment Andsometimes it doesn't work very
well It must be more of achallenge in a volunteer
organization to talk about theimportance of committing and
devoting time to evolving as aleader.
when you're volunteering, it'shierarchical.
(15:50):
You get to the, the seniorleadership, the principal
officers of a lodge.
How do we counter that?
Well, I, what do I need thatfor?
Yeah.
I think that is part of wherethe leadership deficit problem
comes up.
Part of it is that people aredoing their best as volunteers.
And if you work on a citycouncil, for example, or as a
(16:11):
county commissioners, youprobably get some kind of
training from the League ofMinnesota cities or some other
entity on what the parametersand expectations of your role
are.
You know, even some of thelegalities of it.
But when you're working as avolunteer, which also takes
really good organizing skills,you may not get any training
whatsoever.
And then suddenly somebodyretires, they move out of town.
(16:33):
There's an illness.
You have to step up into thatrole without, without really
having a structure that you'vebeen trained in.
And you may get training throughyour professional role, through
a professional association,through your employer.
If you're working in a volunteercapacity, you may not have had
that.
And then your leadershipchallenge is also different
(16:56):
because you're relying onpeople's goodwill and inherent
motivation as opposed to, whileI'm leading this unit of my
nonprofit organization and I canto some degree compel people to
do what needs to be done inorder for us to get where we
need to go because they'reemployees, right?
It is a different challenge in afew ways, um, for volunteer
(17:18):
organizations.
How do we address that?
But I think that civicinstitutions are a part of that.
Um, you know, civic, good civiceducation in our school systems
is part of it, but mentoring andmodeling and really valuing
leadership, um, and, you know,preferably within organizations.
(17:40):
Having a culture that doesencourage leadership, that
discerns leadership potential,that encourages it and that
allows some grace and risk whenpeople make mistakes.
Um, but, but it's difficult.
And one of the challenges thatyou run into, particularly in
volunteer associations is maybesomebody started something'cause
it was a passion project andthey compelled other people with
(18:00):
their vision and other peoplegot on board, but it still is
their baby and they're not veryopen to changing or they
suddenly have had enough or theyneed to leave and then they
haven't really fostered abroader network of people who
can step into that.
Um, or sometimes in volunteerorganizations, people don't,
people get into big territorialfights that kind of take the
(18:22):
organization down.
So it's, it's can becomplicated.
Who's in your Leadership Hall offame?
Hmm.
I should have a ready answer tothat, but I'm not sure that I
do.
Um, in many ways, the leaderswho are in my leadership hall of
(18:45):
fame are people that you wouldnever have heard of.
They are, um, extraordinaryteachers that I had in high
school.
They are, um, my parents, um, mysister, my husband, um, people
in my faith community.
(19:05):
Um.
People I've served with ondifferent kinds of volunteer
organizations, um, when I livedin California are here.
So, you know, we're the, thehead of school of my daughter's
school.
Um, in many ways, I think I'mmore moved by everyday
leadership and people reallyleaning from a strong center of
(19:29):
integrity and an ethicalfoundation and kind of openness
and a generosity of willingnessto serve maybe in roles where
they're not gonna get a lot ofrecognition.
Um, those are the everydaypeople that I'm really inspired
by in some ways.
But, you know, I'm in a schoolof public policy, so there are
also, um, public leaders whoreally inspire me through their
(19:52):
courage, through their example,through their integrity.
Um, um, you know, from a varietyof political persuasions, I read
a lot of Simon Sinek's work.
I liked his quote, I'llparaphrase about leadership is
about seeing those around usrise.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Man, that's powerful.
(20:13):
It is.
When we perceive, if I'm theleader, I better have all the
answers, do all the work, telleverybody what they need to do.
We, we almost fall into amilitary mindset.
But it really is aboutempowering those around us.
It is.
And it is also about learning towork with what it is that we
(20:34):
have.
Right.
Um, instead of kind of runninginto the tidal wave of a really
overwhelming, compelling issuethat may be very compelling, but
we don't have the resources.
Unless we're working with oneanother, um, that's not gonna be
very successful.
And followership is crucial forleadership.
I mean, you can lead yourself.
That kind of ethical integrityis important, and setting a
(20:57):
direction and being self-awareis something that in some ways
you really can only do foryourself.
But leadership, the way weconventionally understand it, is
about helping a collective toaccomplish something.
And that means that you're, thatyou're really regarding
understanding and uplifting thetalents of other people as well,
(21:19):
how tough it can be to share thecredit or give the credit away
when things go well andsuccessfully.
In rockier times, things aren'tgoing as easily.
The leader owns it.
Well, I mean, in the leadershipposition, you do have to take
responsibility when things aregoing poorly or you do have to
(21:39):
be the one to step, step up andprovide some backup.
Um, when somebody who maybe hasa little bit less experience or
maybe a little bit lessopportunity to get things wrong,
uh, you know, needs a little bitof backup.
But I mean, how often have youheard a leader whom you admire
say it doesn't matter who getsthe credit, so long as we get
this done?
(21:59):
And I mean, I've certainly heardthat very often from people who
are accomplishing prettyextraordinary things.
So that seems like an importantconsideration.
Should we attribute it to aworld of short attention spans
We forget frequently.
We may have leaders who arestrong and talented and good at
(22:22):
what they do, but collectivelywe forget how much work it takes
to maintain that momentum.
We have to be mentoring thatrelationship business of not
just assuming that the personnext to me laterally, or that
I'm overseeing, that I'm helpingalong in an officer position at
(22:44):
a lodge, may not be absorbingeverything that I assume he is.
Yeah.
Is that, is that just thedigital world we're in?
We're so used to, we just fast,fast and assume that everyone
around us is absorbing it all.
I, I, I think you're ontosomething there.
I think it is also true thatleadership is always effortful
and that often peopleunderestimate that and I.
(23:08):
They don't have a view into thesleepless nights or the
consultation that people hadwith others before making up
their mind or all of the dataand analy analysis that went
into a decision, or all thecontextualization and the
debating back and forth whentheir view of it is, oh, okay,
this is where we landed.
This was the choice.
This was the public statementthat was made.
(23:29):
This is what my boss told me.
Um, I think we underestimatewhat's involved in that and uh,
and I think we reallyunderestimate what's involved in
mentoring.
You know, they're an awful lotof people out there.
Then when you ask them, have youever had a good, you know, who
was your best boss?
There are a significant numberof people who may be able to
(23:49):
say, I never have had a goodboss, actually.
Um, you know, mentoring takes alot of attention and, uh,
mentors need mentors as well onhow to do it well.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
We talk about mentoring.
In the Masonic world is beingrelationship building.
Mm-hmm.
(24:10):
And it lasts, should last alifetime.
Mm-hmm.
it's more than simply, well, wetalk about the mentor mentee.
I think about impactful mentorswere some of whom I didn't
realize what was happening atthe time.
It was almost that unintentionalmentor or that relationship, the
friendship that blossomed outtathat.
Mm-hmm.
(24:31):
How often do people say, I wantthis person to be my mentor?
Is it, is it, can that happennaturally?
Can we decide that?
I've had people occasionallycome to me and say, will you be
my mentor?
And I think, oh, I didn't knowthat was a thing that people
asked.
Right?
I mean, no pressure Sometimes,sometimes it's flattering and
sometimes it really makes sense.
Um, and I've had peers come andsay, Hey, you know, we're at a
(24:54):
stage in our careers where bothof us could be need mentors.
It's a little hard to findsometimes.
You wanna be each other'smentors, and that has turned out
to be a really beautiful thingbecause you're making a
commitment to really attend tothe other person's needs,
questions, doubts, strengths,limitations, and really pay
attention and try to supportthem in that and not just say,
(25:16):
you're doing great.
Right.
But be more specific.
Yeah.
You know, in order to beimpactful in a community, I
think you have to learn someskills of collaboration as well.
And that, I would say is alittle bit different from
connecting a leader with acommunity whom they serve and
are leading.
(25:37):
There's a certain amount oftraining out there in the
general world, and I thinkthat's probably part of the
Masonic Lodge culture as well inthat kind of ethical, personal
development and, and growth anda growth mindset.
But to be really impactful in acommunity, not just in an
organization or a brotherhood,but really in a broader
community, in a city or a town,um, or in a, a community of
(25:59):
identity, you really need tolearn how to collaborate with
others as well.
And that's not a skill that wenecessarily teach all that.
Well, do you mean collaborateinternally or with other groups?
Within our, often with othergroups, yes.
Right.
Um, I mean, there's been a lotof scholarship from sociology to
say that.
Um, professions, for example,that are really strict around
(26:22):
their buying boundaries.
You're either in or you're out,will often think that they're
doing something to protect theintegrity of who they are and to
strengthen themselves.
But those organizations orassociations that have really
strict boundaries about you'rein or you're out actually end up
being very brittle and brittle.
Organizations fail.
They break.
And so yeah, that externallooking externally making those
(26:47):
bridges, you know, it'simportant that you have bonds
within, but it's also veryimportant that you have bro
bridges out and you know,leadership development isn't
always oriented to that bridgebuilding.
And there's that opportunity toinsert ourselves in a
collaborative sense with anotherorganization within our
(27:09):
communities.
I.
that we don't feel like we haveto do it all by ourselves.
Well, if you could do it all byyourselves, it probably wouldn't
actually be a problem or reallyan untapped opportunity to begin
with.
I mean, you might be competingwith someone else if it's fairly
straightforward, but most of thetime, you know, the, kind of the
kinds of public issues thatconcern me, um, we don't have
(27:32):
enough childcare in ourcommunity.
We have an affordable housingproblem.
We have a workforce developmentproblem.
We are having a retention issuewith keeping young people in our
community.
We're concerned about publicsafety.
The quality of our schools is aconcern for us.
They may be great quality, butwe can't pay for it.
All of those things, if it werejust within the hands of, you
know, one leader, oneorganization, one sector, one
(27:55):
discipline to address, theywouldn't be challenging.
So if you're gonna address thosekinds of things, which I mean,
that is the real quality of lifequestion, if you wanna think
about how elders are cared forin your community.
You're not really gonna be ableto address that unless you are
able to work collaborativelyacross multiple organizations.
(28:15):
And yet we get into therumination trap where we know we
can't do it by ourselves, and weknow we should collaborate with
someone else, another group,another set of people, and yet
we just talk it to death.
Sometimes we keep looking forthat.
Well, wait a minute, let's keeptalking about it.
And until we come up with theperfect recipe or the exact
(28:38):
model of how we'll execute this,we better not do anything.
That it, it's hard and I thinkit's so hard.
I think that is also, um, partlygenerational.
I see it among, um, my youngerstudents.
I teach students that are from27 to 65.
I notice it particularly amongthe younger ones that they want
to know that they've got itfigured out before they launch.
(28:59):
Really?
I'm fascinated by that, of thatyounger perspective.
I think so, yeah.
A little bit more paralysis of,um, and I'm not making fun of
them.
No, no.
But it's, but like a little bitof the analysis paralysis.
Mm-hmm.
I've gotta get all of the factsin order and not misstep and,
um, you know, that, that reallywhat you're describing is we've
gotta ruminate, we gotta get itall sorted out before we launch.
(29:22):
I mean, of course people want tobe informed in their actions.
That's basically a good thing.
But there has to be a little bitof willingness to experiment and
take some risks as well.
And that's actually a reallycore part of what we teach at
the Center for IntegrativeLeadership is about.
Developing well-informed pilotprojects with the expectation
(29:42):
that you're going to iterate andsometimes you're gonna find a
great model and then you'regonna scale up and continue
doing more of it.
Sometimes you're gonna have topivot'cause you learned enough
from it, but it's not quite thething.
And so you learn and sometimesyou are going to fail and lay it
down and um, and that's okay.
It is okay.
And we do quite a lot to helppeople accept that.
(30:06):
And the interesting thing isthat when we talk with
nonprofit, um, government orbusiness leaders about.
Why don't you start smallinstead of starting big?
There's a lot of resistance tothat sometimes at the outset.
You clearly know us well.
Well, because like there's thebig thing, right?
There's the big thing we wannado the big the big thing.
(30:26):
Yes.
Home.
Home run.
Nothing.
Well, and then if you'veinvested in the big thing
emotionally or materially, yes.
If you've invested in the bigthing and it's not going very
well, it's kind of harder toadmit that it's not going very
well.
So you keep on going and thenyou're just, you know,
compounding the problem.
So we do a lot to coach peopleand I'm, I'm laughing because I
(30:47):
need to take this lesson inmyself sometimes.
Well, we all do, but to justlike start small.
Yeah, start small.
Starting small is a start.
Slow sustainable progress.
Yeah.
It's a re recurring theme onthis podcast.
And within our organization,some of the events.
Fundraisers, a communityengagement that lodges do
successfully have been a decadeor more of a little bit of
(31:11):
growth each year.
But yeah, we want a home run.
Yeah, we just wanna be anallstar.
And if something is tried, I seethis frequently, a lodge will
try something and if it's mildlysuccessful, well that was okay.
That was good.
But then the will or thewillpower to keep going and to
(31:33):
say, let's build on that.
Let's do that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
This much better.
Next time, next year, sixmonths.
That is a tough sell.
Yeah.
It's not very exciting.
And yet simply to survive andpersist, that is an
accomplishment.
Yes.
That's not something to takelightly.
And in fact.
(31:53):
If you're not tending to yourorganization in your efforts,
you're not gonna survive andpersist.
And so those, the, those smallincrements, um, I don't wanna be
an apologist for beingincremental instead of thinking
big, but I, I think if you wannathink big, you do have to work
incrementally also, you can'tjust have one or the other.
(32:17):
So how have you addressed someof these things?
You're really dealing with howwe're wired as humans.
Mm-hmm.
We know what we need to do, butthe path to get there may seem
either it takes too muchendurance.
Or passion or the ability tothink in that long-term
perspective and to be okay withslow sustainable 1% a day
(32:38):
progress.
I am about to start a strengthtraining program and I'm
wondering like if I will havethe proper mindset to know that
slow progress is, is the point.
Um, because I, I mean, I'm justacknowledging personally that I
understand the challenge ofaccepting and really embracing
(33:00):
the fact that like slow steadyprogress is a good thing.
But I think I have the advantageas an educator that I work with
students.
I also work with communitymembers, and as an educator it
is my job to support growth andgrowth is positive.
And so it is my role and peoplelook to me in that role to.
(33:20):
Affirm, encourage, um, hopefullynot just pat on the head, right?
Right.
But to support that growth andpeople are coming with a desire
to grow their skills, and sothat helps.
But when I work with communitymembers and alumni of various
programs, um, whom I, you know,often stay in touch with for
years, it is continuing to havethat conversation about, um, you
(33:43):
wanna maintain momentum so youdon't feel like you're just
treading water and you have todeal with disappointments, and
you have to deal with really,really tough things that are
going on in the world or in yourorganization or in your family,
whatever it may be.
How do you, and have a sense ofsome momentum that is motivating
(34:03):
instead of feeling like nothingis going anywhere.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And I think that's where you canuse that leadership circle too
sometimes to help you understandthat there have been times, like
in early peak COVID.
I was working with currentstudents who were mid-career
professionals in government andnonprofit organizations who were
on the front line of trying tokeep social service systems
(34:26):
going amidst an unprecedentedcrisis for our generation.
And sometimes in thosesituations it felt like the
world is overwhelming and you'retrying to figure out what to do
about this crisis that is uponus.
And actually the work thatyou've always been doing is
important.
It actually speaks to thiscrisis.
(34:47):
Keep doing what you're doing.
You don't have to have thesolution to everything.
It's all about progress.
Yeah.
In that case, progress is holdyourself together, have the
stamina, find your friends.
Do your best to take care ofyourself and keep going.
(35:07):
He talked about strengthtraining.
I.
Similar say like learning aforeign language.
Mm-hmm.
we all wanna be bilingual now,you know, I don't wanna know, I
don't want to conjugate verbs.
I just, I just want to be ableto converse with my family
member.
Is there a certain amount ofvalue in reviewing maybe in
arrears the progress that hasbeen made when it feels
(35:29):
discouraging looking forward?
Is it healthy to look back andsay, well look, look at all the
progress I have made that wehave made that are, or that are
that my lodge made?
Oh, definitely.
In community outreach or infundraising for something.
Absolutely.
And I think of this sometimes asa sort of 50 50 proposition
that.
(35:50):
We often learn leadership byworking on a project, by working
on a particular objective.
And it's hard to learnleadership kind of in a vacuum
without having some practicalthing that we're working on.
It's also hard to accomplish thepractical thing without having
leadership.
Sometimes the practical thingdoesn't go well, but there's
still leadership growthsometimes.
(36:12):
You didn't really grow as aleader though.
You did accomplish the thing.
Right.
And so I think sometimes thatlooking in arrears is, helps us
to see those lessons learned.
And um, I'm just gonna give ashort example if I can.
Yeah.
The very first time that Itaught, I come from a long line
(36:32):
of teachers.
Everybody in my family who's hadthe benefit of a college
education has been an educatorof one kind or another.
Sometimes the school nurse,sometimes the HR professional
for the elementary school, butmost of them classroom teachers.
I was the last one to figure outthat that's what I wanted to do.
So I went and I taught a class,um, first semester and I came
back and I saw my advisor and Ishared with her the feedback
(36:54):
forms that I got.
'cause I wanted to learn to be abetter teacher.
And she said, well, it's clearthat your students know that you
care about the learning.
I was like, well, yeah.
I mean, tell me something Ididn't know.
And she was like, no, youshouldn't take that for granted
actually.
How many teachers have you hadthat you didn't learn very much
(37:18):
from, or you didn't progress oryou felt discouraged?
If you go back and look at it,how many of those teachers
didn't really demonstrate to youthat they did care about your
learning?
Maybe they didn't actually care.
Maybe they didn't communicate itwell.
Maybe they didn't connect itwith you.
Well, I have held onto that nowfor 17 years of teaching that
she told me that after my veryfirst semester, and I would
(37:42):
never have noticed that aboutmyself if she hadn't pointed it
out.
And it ends up being a reallycrucial kind of north star of
how it is that I teach.
So we all need that kind ofhelp.
Somebody to help you see thething that is so much a part of
you or how you do things thatyou don't even see it.
It's powerful.
(38:02):
pivotal for you, even for retainheld onto that all this time.
It makes perfect sense.
She was a very gifted mentor andwas able to see something that I
needed to be explicit about.
That's huge.
That's a great story.
Well, and one of the things I'velearned about that also was an
(38:23):
adaptation of how to help peoplestep off a path that they're on.
So, fairly early on, then Ilearned, you know, maybe a third
of the way into a semester, notmore than a third, somewhere
between a quarter and a third ofthe way through the semester
when I'm concerned about astudent, I will say.
I'm concerned about yourprogress, your attendance,
(38:45):
whatever it may be.
Um, I can help you if you wishto be helped.
And very often that opens a doorfor a student to be like, oh, I
do maybe need some help.
Maybe she can help me.
But every once in a whilethere's also that student's
like, yeah, I don't wanna behelped.
And they step off, you know, thetrack.
And that is actually a goodthing for them to realize, like,
(39:08):
this is not, I'm not this, thisis not the right time.
This is not the right thing.
Um, but so I've learned thatcommunicating that can be
helpful.
I don't know if there's a biggerleadership message there.
Well, everybody's good atsomething and we all have areas
of opportunity.
Right.
And you know, to go back to thatcollaborative leadership team
(39:29):
too, you actually needcomplimentary teams.
And so you need to learn theskill also of working in a team.
Well, as a leader, because it'sfine.
I, I don't know you very well,so let's just say you're not a
visual person.
Okay.
And I'm more of a visual personand you're more of a verbal
person.
Uh, it's actually gonna be toour advantage.
If we know that about oneanother and we can appreciate
(39:52):
that in each other, then we aregonna deliver a better, we're,
we're gonna deliver better interms of, um, connecting with a
broader group of people and, andhelping to lead them and helping
to communicate better.
So, it's okay.
You don't have to be good at,you don't have to hit every
mark, but the self-awareness andthe humility and the ability to
connect with the other peoplewho are part of your team is the
(40:12):
skill.
What are your thoughts on theimportance of community
associations as a public policyscholar?
Um, I am increasingly concernedabout, I.
Political polarization anddivision.
Um, I'm also just concernedabout loneliness and people's
(40:35):
isolation.
And I think to some degree, as asociety, we are losing the skill
of being able to bridge andconnect across different
generations, different politicalviews, different religions,
different life experiences,whatever it may be.
And so associations, and this isone of the very positive
(40:58):
impressions that I have of theMasonic Lodge actually, that you
do really encourage people toconnect at a human level, to
support one another'sdevelopment, to support one
another, to make thoughtfulchoices.
And I mean thoughtful, like inthe broadest sense of the word,
right?
Um.
I mean, you espouse educationand truth and learning and um,
(41:21):
you know, thinking throughthings, but also thoughtfulness
around kind of ethicalleadership and leading with
integrity and connecting.
I think associations that helppeople to continue to be their
better selves and to beconnected with others who are
different from themselves are arare thing that we really, um,
(41:44):
we need that more than ever.
And, um, people may take thatfor granted if they're in that
kind of an association or theyhave the opportunity of being in
that culture.
But our culture more broadlyneeds more of that.
We often look at the fact thatwhile involvement in civic
groups may be down compared tothe glory days of 60, 70 years
(42:08):
ago, what we stand for isFreemasons.
You alluded to personal growth.
Building community, authenticfriendship, brotherhood, not
being a buzzword or just thatlittle platitude, but really
having a heart to heartconnection with another friend
and in an organization that hasalways been, I, I really feel
(42:30):
like part of why we're still inbusiness today.
We are apolitical non, and yetthe world outside just doesn't
want to acknowledge, well, ifyou and I don't think exactly
the same, we can't be friendsand we want to get back to that.
We want to get back to a placewhere, yeah, maybe, maybe the
(42:53):
four people at the table allhave opposing views on whatever
it is.
That does not mean that weshould not be friends,
colleagues spend time togetherand try to try to understand one
another.
Without just that, that writeoff.
It's so fast in this world.
(43:13):
It feels I absolutely agree withthat.
and it's very important tocombine that with, to be able to
get along with someone with whomyou disagree should not mean
that you're actually leavingyour cares and your values and
your passions at the door.
Like what, what I feel we reallyneed, and this is part of
(43:33):
leadership, it's also part ofcommunity life, it's, and
associations and working onthose public opportunities and
problems, is we need people whodo know who they are and who are
always open to learning and whocan see one another's common
humanity.
And so it's not really about,oh, we don't talk politics at
Thanksgiving'cause we don't wantconflict.
(43:55):
That, that may be fine forThanksgiving is probably a good
thing for Thanksgiving, but youactually want associations where
people are gonna have quite.
Deeply held differences and yetalso still truly respect and
love one another.
What's the first step?
Listening and, and I think alsojust a basic stance of basic
(44:20):
respect and, um, a foundationalassumption of the other person's
humanity, and dignity andupholding that with respect, but
then really having the skill oflistening.
Yeah.
Listening.
It's all about, in Freemasonry,we talk about silence and
circumspection.
Take it in.
(44:41):
Listen until it hurts.
That's hard.
That's interesting to me.
And I'll leave it to you whetheryou wanna go there or not, but I
did not know about the silenceand circumspection piece, and
maybe that is part of theaffinity that I feel in so far
as I understand anything aboutthe masons because I, I was
(45:04):
raised Quaker and I'm still apracticing Quaker.
Oh.
And so, silence, reflection, awillingness to take things in
and spend some time with them,um, is certainly part of my DNA.
all of our core values, we areencouraged to practice.
(45:30):
Mm-hmm.
I often talk to younger men andtheir families.
They'll say, I want to become aFreemason so you guys can tell
me how I should.
I think, well, we don't tell youhow to do anything.
We provide the tools mm-hmm.
On how you and each of usindividually can commit to
becoming that better version ofourself, knowing we'll never be
(45:52):
perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Impossible to get to thatstatus, to that point, but to be
self-aware.
Mm-hmm.
Listen, more than we talk.
Mm-hmm.
Try to understand one anothermore and more.
The world seems to be cravingthat, and yet I.
Trips on itself to let thatmanifest itself.
(46:16):
Well, and there's an ininteresting tension culturally
between, um, curiosity and aconstant commitment almost
sometimes I think an obsessivesort of self-serving desire for
constant growth, constantgrowth, constant growth, which
is a little bit of a fast cycleof consumption.
I, you know, I, I think therecan be some tension between that
(46:38):
and a desire that many peoplehave to just be told what to do,
right?
And it is quite different to begiven.
Like, here's the maxim for howto behave versus let me ask you
a question that helps youinterpret your own situation and
find your way to how it is thatyou should behave.
(47:01):
Um, people don't always have thepatience for that.
It's like, on one hand I want toknow the path and then the path
is laid out, but oh man, thattakes a lot of patience and
willpower and commitment andIt's a journey.
Right.
That was easy.
Yeah, exactly.
No, it wasn't, but thanks forthat.
(47:21):
Check that off my list now.
As we start to wind down ourtime today, what has been
something in your work with aCenter for integrative
leadership that you've seen astransformative mm-hmm.
That that really stands out aslike a highlight moment for you?
(47:45):
Hmm.
It's hard to identify one,because sometimes as an
educator, the highlights arekind of the gestalt of the whole
thing where you can see thatlike the minds are turning.
sometimes it's marked by silencebecause people are like, whoa,
okay.
I gotta, I gotta think aboutthat.
(48:06):
Um, sometimes there's, there's alot of, uh, uh, clarity.
So I think in many ways it'sjust when you're in that kind of
like peak learning moment whereyou know that the wheels are
turning and that you've kind ofshaken things up a little bit,
that it can be very helpful.
Um, I, I certainly feel like wehave a wonderful advisory
council for the Center forIntegr of leadership of, um,
(48:29):
philanthropic nonprofitgovernment business leaders who
are really, you know, kind of atthe height of their profession.
Very well-regarded people whoare very generous to give their
time as advisors, and theycertainly feel like.
If ever there were a time tomake the case for cross-sector
leadership, this is certainlyit.
Um, we're in, you know, we're inchallenging times, and so I
(48:51):
don't know that that's a momentthat I'm particularly proud of.
Um, I think it is just a sensethat our mission is more
important than ever.
In our effort to get to knowguests better.
Mm-hmm.
What are you good at that youdon't enjoy doing?
(49:12):
Uh.
We have this conversation prettyoften in our family with my
daughter, um, that just'causeyou're good at something doesn't
mean that you have to love itand sometimes you have to do
things that you're good at even.
So what am I good at that Idon't love doing?
Um, well, years ago I could havesaid dish washing because I
(49:33):
lived in graduate studenthousing.
We didn't have a dishwasher andwe had a baby and there was
quite a bit of, um, dish washingto do and constant had to do it.
Um, and I did not enjoy it.
Now I actually kind of enjoy mydish washing'cause it's time to
let my mind just float and freeassociate.
Um, I could probably be good atcleaning, but I do not enjoy it.
(49:56):
what interest do you wish morepeople shared with you?
Hmm.
Well, I recently, um, completelyenjoyed the pleasure of a
conversation with a friendly andinteresting stranger.
And I'm not always up fortalking to strangers.
(50:18):
Sometimes I just need some spaceand some solitude.
But I was absolutely delighted.
Like, absolutely delighted andfull of love for the three other
people that I was with myhusband and these two women who
just sat down across the tablefrom us on Saturday.
And we sat there for a full hourand just had a completely
delightful conversation.
(50:39):
And I do wish that that was amore common thing of just
connecting with strangers.
We never anticipate how powerfuland authentic that is.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
This is remarkable.
These two very remarkablepeople, um, that.
I mean, you don't care abouttheir life story.
(51:01):
I don't really know them.
But you know, this woman who hadmoved when she was 14 years old
to become a nanny in a differentcountry like that is a powerful
history that I would never haveguessed that, and I wouldn't
have contemplated what that islike unless we happened to sit
across the table from eachother.
(51:25):
The next time I'm on a flight,I'm gonna resist the temptation
to put my AirPods in right away,and maybe we'll see if that
conversation happens.
See, for me, flights are likethe one time I can work without
being interrupted.
Oh, I would not take well tothat.
So my taste for this comes andgoes.
Dr.
Kathy quick.
Thank you for being our guesttoday on Minnesota Masonic
(51:48):
Histories and Mysteries, thework you're doing at the Center
for Integrative Leadership.
Tremendous.
Thank you very much for havingme.
It was really a pleasure.
I.
Can a leader be made?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
I think so.
I mean, going back to theargument of whether leaders are
born or made, I'm certainly morein the camp of leaders are made.
I actually think that leadershipis something that any individual
(00:20):
is capable of.
And I, I don't mean that, um,every kid in the class gets a
prize for being the best.
Right?
But I do think that actuallyanyone is capable of, uh, being
coached, being led, beingencouraged, um, to play to their
strengths, to find theirstrengths, to develop some
courage.
Um, I do think some people havesome natural advantages.
(00:42):
It certainly, uh.
You know, there are gender rolesand things like that that lead
people to be seen as leaders indifferent kinds of domains, but
I think it's mostly a matter of,um, of training and, and
experimentation and growth.
Our guest today is the GrossFamily Chair for public and
nonprofit leadership at theHumphrey School of Public
(01:03):
Affairs at the University ofMinnesota.
She's also one of two academicco-directors of the Center for
Integrative Leadership, auniversity-wide center dedicated
to building leadership capacityacross the business, government,
and nonprofit sectors to worktogether to advance the public
good.
She also works as a statespecialist in leadership and
(01:26):
civic engagement for Universityof Minnesota Extension.
Welcome, Dr.
Kathy Quick.
Thank you.
So you were originally hail fromrural Pennsylvania.
I worked professionally for 14years before returning to grad
school.
Transitioned to professor andscholar.
Spent most of your twenties inIndonesia.
(01:46):
We have so much to talk about.
You worked as an environmentaladvocate, an urban planning
consultant, then served as acommunity development manager
for two cities in California.
Currently live with your familyand two cats in St.
Paul.
What are the cat's names?
Oliver and Marigold.
Are they pals most of the time?
Most.
Okay.
Yes, that's what I thought.
(02:07):
You also enjoy time with friendswalking in either cities or in
nature, reading, cooking,knitting, meeting, all kinds of
people.
Bachelor's degree in biology, amaster's degree in city planning
from the University ofCalifornia, Berkeley, and a PhD
in Urban Planning and publicpolicy from the University of
California Irvine.
(02:28):
How many years was that inschool?
A lot.
A lot.
I had to take a break and workfor a while.
Okay.
Which I loved actually.
Um, I think having theprofessional background, uh, is
very much an advantage, um, inthe kind of teaching that I do.
Bringing those two worldstogether, I.
Will you share a little bit moreabout the Center for Integrative
(02:49):
Leadership?
I hear the acronym saidfrequently m Yelp, is that
correct?
Correct.
Tell us more.
Okay.
Um, the Center for IntegrativeLeadership was founded in 2006,
and it is still the only, uh,university-based center in the
United States, maybe in theworld.
I'm not sure.
That really trains people in theskills of business, government,
(03:11):
and nonprofit leaders workingtogether on community issues.
Um, so we work, uh, both withgraduate students across the
university, uh, but alsocommunity members across the
state.
On really trying to, uh, findopportunities, seize
opportunities in communities,um, and address problems
together across those sectors.
So you recently spoke at one ofour area conferences, which was
(03:34):
held in St.
Paul and discussed civicleadership development for
thriving communities.
There's a leadership deficit inour communities.
Collaboration is a challenge.
Well, maybe we could start witha leadership deficit.
It came as a surprise to me and,uh, this is from colleagues at
the University of Minnesotaextension, the community
(03:55):
development department.
It's about one in 21 adults inthe state of Minnesota that
would need to serve in aleadership role in order for us
to fulfill just our formalgovernment and formal nonprofit
board leadership positions.
Wow, okay.
That does not include the headof the PTA football coach, boy
(04:17):
scouts leader, church deacon,that person on Main Street that
everybody goes to for businessadvice.
The farmer that everybody goesto for farming advice, you know,
in, in some rural areas of thestate, that's one in nine.
So Wow.
That is a major problem.
Um, a major challenge I thinkfor younger generations.
(04:38):
Um, and I don't know about you,but in the small town that I
wasn't even a small town, therural area where I grew up.
That wasn't one in nine, it waslike one in every 50 or 60 who
was doing five jobs.
Um, and so I'm very devoted tohelping to build, build support
for all of those leaders outthere that are doing the best
they can for their communities.
(05:00):
What do you chalk that up to aleadership deficit?
Is it, is it apathy?
Is it are, are people justassuming in today's world that,
well, somebody else either knowsmore about that or is maybe
better suited for that, or I'mjust not gonna worry about it
because it's very alarming?
It is alarming.
I think part of it really isjust that we have so many
(05:20):
institutions that needattention.
Um, you know, de Tocquevillecame to the United States and
said that the United States wasmarked as a society of
Associations.
It's kind of an American thingto have lots of nonprofits, lots
of community organizations, um,lots of membership
organizations.
I mean, there's just, we kind ofseem to grow them in the United
States, so that's part of it.
(05:41):
All of them take tending and wecan't take for granted that they
will be tended.
But I think there is also achallenge of people leaving
rural areas, their generationalchanges, and a change in how
people are oriented toleadership.
That, um, more and more peoplewant to join organizations that
are affiliated with a habit,with a hobby, with a particular
(06:02):
interest they have, instead ofthe more place-based
institutions like a MasonicLodge or a Rotary, or a Kiwanis
Club, or a Lion, or some ofthose service-based
organizations.
And so there's maybe a littlebit less opportunity for people
to learn and grow into theirleadership.
We've talked a lot about that inthe Masonic context or in the
(06:23):
fraternal organization.
When was it?
In the seventies when moregroups, interest groups were
start specializing in thosecivic groups that had to do with
a specific cause or mission,whether it was eating disorders
or uh, meals for needy people.
Things really branched out intothose areas of special
(06:44):
specialty, which was great, butyet that left some of those just
regular service-basedorganizations seeing fewer
members.
I think that is true.
If you look back to bowlingalone and books like that, that
really discussed this, it doesseem to have really, um, I.
Kind of reached a significanttipping point, um, around the
(07:06):
nineties.
I don't know.
And I try not to talk about whatI don't know, but I think that
does sound right, that it wasaround the seventies that people
started to join moreenvironmental clubs.
Yeah.
The hiking club.
The biking group.
Um, as opposed to those moreplace-based, um, more general
community, civic fabric kind oforganizations.
I love that you mentionedbowling alone.
(07:27):
We hosted a screening of the, ofRobert Putnam's Join or Die
documentary.
Mm-hmm.
In that, the Heritage Center inNovember of 2024.
Mm-hmm.
Had a full house.
What a tremendous body of workhe's put together.
Are you a fan of his, do youreference.
I, you know, as a scholar, thereare a lot of scholars to follow.
(07:48):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Um, here's this one random guy,and I'm like, did you, do you
like him?
Yeah.
Um, yes, I do.
I, I find, um, that work, uh, itcertainly very compelling.
It draws attention to a reallyimportant issue and I think
there, you know, he hasaccomplished what a lot of
scholars aim for, which is toreach a broader audience.
(08:09):
There's so much to unpack withall of this for us in the
Minnesota Freemasons.
And maybe this is a case forseveral other volunteer groups.
Part of our purpose is toelevate our lodge officers into
leadership positions.
(08:31):
How do we prepare them for thatproactively instead of
reactively?
Mm hmm.
What do you mean by reactively?
our organization is structuredin that hierarchical lineup.
So one of our challenges is thatonce a member reaches a certain
(08:53):
office in the lodge, he simplyassumes by virtue of his title
or jewel of office that he is infact a, a bonafide leader.
And by the time that gentlemanis overseeing the lodge, well
we, we just pulled him in.
There isn't always a referencepoint to gauge what level of
skill they may or may not have.
(09:15):
Mm-hmm.
To be in fact said, leader.
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I admire, and I hope that I
understand properly, becauseI've never been part, I, I've
never been a member of a lodge,I don't qualify.
But my understanding is thatthere is a great deal of
(09:36):
attention to ethics.
Ethics in a thoughtful way,thinking through dilemmas of a
leadership, not just saying, um,this is the way, this is not the
way.
Right.
But really more of a process ofdiscernment.
And I firmly believe that inorder for leaders to con to
become successful, they do needcolleagues.
(09:59):
Trusted mentors, loved ones whodo help them to discern what are
their leadership strengths andhow do they play to that.
Now, there are also leadershipneeds that everyone needs to
have.
It.
It matters that everybody be agood communicator.
It matters that everybody havesome degree of empathy.
It matters that people, um, notbe so overtaken by their own ego
(10:21):
and title that they forget aboutthe followers, right.
And the mission, um, it helps ifthey do have a mission.
It's not great if they only havea mission and are not great at
operations.
Right?
You, you need a balance ofskills.
Mm-hmm.
But it's also really importantfor somebody to even conceive of
themselves as a leader if peoplehelp them to see what those
strengths are.
(10:43):
But then you don't just arriveat a position of leadership in
Excel.
You need to have that continuingcabinet or circle or, you know,
friend group, whatever that maybe, that that helps you to
continue, um, to grow.
Safe to say that's a lifelongpursuit.
It is.
And I mean, that's not, Iunderstand what you're saying
(11:04):
about, uh, you know, having aline that people come up through
and that you're recognized andthen, you know, it's inevitable
that you're proceeding alongthat line.
But that happens in nonprofitand government organizations as
well where, or in businesseswhere you've had a long
established CEO that becausethey're the CEO, they're
expected to lead, and yet theyalso need refreshment.
They need renewal and ongoinglearning.
(11:28):
that's so true.
We look at the CEO and justassume, well, that person's got
to be the oracle.
Right.
Their answer, their direction,their quote unquote, leadership,
we just assume is going to besolid and, and take it to the
bank.
Right.
I mean, there's certainlyaccomplishment that's taken them
(11:48):
to that place, but if they'regonna continue to be successful,
leadership really is aboutadaptation as well very often.
And, you know, resilience in theface of challenges, adapting to
new opportunities, resourceconstraints, disruptions, you
didn't imagine interpersonalconflicts.
You know, very few people have afull skillset for any
(12:09):
contingency and it really takesa learning mentality in order to
be able to continue to grow.
there's a big difference betweenJohn Doe being a lodge member
with a new title and actuallypreparing someone on that
trajectory to be an effective, agrowing, uh, self-aware leader.
(12:33):
Yeah.
Not just'cause I'm in charge.
Right.
I I got a off topic a little bitthough.
So let's just talk about the,the deficit though at the
community level.
Can, can I ask you a questionthough?
Yeah.
Where does humility come into,um, into ethics or culture or,
um, personal growth that'sencouraged within the lodge?
(12:56):
Humility is a very importantaspect of an effective leader
that's going to inspire.
Mm-hmm.
I think the discussion that,that occurs at the lodge level
frequently is, is it about beingthe leader in control or is it
distributed competence?
As I've heard it said once.
(13:17):
Yeah.
Right.
Right, and everyone's different.
We rotate through once a year.
Leadership changes every year,and usually, as I'm sure you've
seen many times, someone's justsettling in, getting into that
groove and then the year's over,it's time to switch again.
Right.
And even though there's, it'sfunny, there's a little bit of a
consistency, but there's also alot of differences and that
(13:40):
makes it tricky too.
Yeah.
I could see that there would beadvantages of that, that you
have renewal.
You don't simply get into agroove, but then there is
something good about consistencytoo, so you can kind of settle
in, anticipate work within anenvironment that's a little bit
more stable, but you have yourculture to do that.
The reason I asked abouthumility is because I think that
(14:01):
is a very big part of ongoinglearning and growth, and that
that is really a core part ofbeing successful as a leader,
regardless of what comes at you.
But also humility is part ofmaking connection with the other
people for whom your leadershipis high stakes.
You know, your leadership isnever only about your own
success.
(14:21):
If you're successful as aleader, it's because you are
there with a sense of service tothe broader community, and
humility helps to make thatconnection.
How much does effectivecommunication impact leadership
abilities?
Is that baked into humility,self-awareness?
(14:45):
I think it's a little separate.
I think empathy and humilityhelp with effective
communication, because those areall about seeing your common
humanity, but they'recommunication skills that you
can work on.
I'm too wordy.
I constantly have colleaguesthat are helping me to looking
for the right metaphor.
Trying to tell it in a story.
empathy does play a role inlike, who is this other person
(15:06):
and how am I gonna connect withthem?
And then I often think aboutthose communication skills as,
it's a little bit like goinginto a department store.
'cause you know, you need a pairof pants.
It's like you can reach for thepair of pants that's the pair of
pants that you wear every time.
Or you could say, you know,maybe I'll try something red
today just for the heck of it.
And you put it on and you'relike, oh, that works right.
I you, you can't just, if youwanna be a good communicator,
(15:28):
you can't just constantly be inthe same groove.
You have to experiment Andsometimes it doesn't work very
well It must be more of achallenge in a volunteer
organization to talk about theimportance of committing and
devoting time to evolving as aleader.
when you're volunteering, it'shierarchical.
(15:50):
You get to the, the seniorleadership, the principal
officers of a lodge.
How do we counter that?
Well, I, what do I need thatfor?
Yeah.
I think that is part of wherethe leadership deficit problem
comes up.
Part of it is that people aredoing their best as volunteers.
And if you work on a citycouncil, for example, or as a
(16:11):
county commissioners, youprobably get some kind of
training from the League ofMinnesota cities or some other
entity on what the parametersand expectations of your role
are.
You know, even some of thelegalities of it.
But when you're working as avolunteer, which also takes
really good organizing skills,you may not get any training
whatsoever.
And then suddenly somebodyretires, they move out of town.
(16:33):
There's an illness.
You have to step up into thatrole without, without really
having a structure that you'vebeen trained in.
And you may get training throughyour professional role, through
a professional association,through your employer.
If you're working in a volunteercapacity, you may not have had
that.
And then your leadershipchallenge is also different
(16:56):
because you're relying onpeople's goodwill and inherent
motivation as opposed to, whileI'm leading this unit of my
nonprofit organization and I canto some degree compel people to
do what needs to be done inorder for us to get where we
need to go because they'reemployees, right?
It is a different challenge in afew ways, um, for volunteer
(17:18):
organizations.
How do we address that?
But I think that civicinstitutions are a part of that.
Um, you know, civic, good civiceducation in our school systems
is part of it, but mentoring andmodeling and really valuing
leadership, um, and, you know,preferably within organizations.
(17:40):
Having a culture that doesencourage leadership, that
discerns leadership potential,that encourages it and that
allows some grace and risk whenpeople make mistakes.
Um, but, but it's difficult.
And one of the challenges thatyou run into, particularly in
volunteer associations is maybesomebody started something'cause
it was a passion project andthey compelled other people with
(18:00):
their vision and other peoplegot on board, but it still is
their baby and they're not veryopen to changing or they
suddenly have had enough or theyneed to leave and then they
haven't really fostered abroader network of people who
can step into that.
Um, or sometimes in volunteerorganizations, people don't,
people get into big territorialfights that kind of take the
(18:22):
organization down.
So it's, it's can becomplicated.
Who's in your Leadership Hall offame?
Hmm.
I should have a ready answer tothat, but I'm not sure that I
do.
Um, in many ways, the leaderswho are in my leadership hall of
(18:45):
fame are people that you wouldnever have heard of.
They are, um, extraordinaryteachers that I had in high
school.
They are, um, my parents, um, mysister, my husband, um, people
in my faith community.
(19:05):
Um.
People I've served with ondifferent kinds of volunteer
organizations, um, when I livedin California are here.
So, you know, we're the, thehead of school of my daughter's
school.
Um, in many ways, I think I'mmore moved by everyday
leadership and people reallyleaning from a strong center of
(19:29):
integrity and an ethicalfoundation and kind of openness
and a generosity of willingnessto serve maybe in roles where
they're not gonna get a lot ofrecognition.
Um, those are the everydaypeople that I'm really inspired
by in some ways.
But, you know, I'm in a schoolof public policy, so there are
also, um, public leaders whoreally inspire me through their
(19:52):
courage, through their example,through their integrity.
Um, um, you know, from a varietyof political persuasions, I read
a lot of Simon Sinek's work.
I liked his quote, I'llparaphrase about leadership is
about seeing those around usrise.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Man, that's powerful.
(20:13):
It is.
When we perceive, if I'm theleader, I better have all the
answers, do all the work, telleverybody what they need to do.
We, we almost fall into amilitary mindset.
But it really is aboutempowering those around us.
It is.
And it is also about learning towork with what it is that we
(20:34):
have.
Right.
Um, instead of kind of runninginto the tidal wave of a really
overwhelming, compelling issuethat may be very compelling, but
we don't have the resources.
Unless we're working with oneanother, um, that's not gonna be
very successful.
And followership is crucial forleadership.
I mean, you can lead yourself.
That kind of ethical integrityis important, and setting a
(20:57):
direction and being self-awareis something that in some ways
you really can only do foryourself.
But leadership, the way weconventionally understand it, is
about helping a collective toaccomplish something.
And that means that you're, thatyou're really regarding
understanding and uplifting thetalents of other people as well,
(21:19):
how tough it can be to share thecredit or give the credit away
when things go well andsuccessfully.
In rockier times, things aren'tgoing as easily.
The leader owns it.
Well, I mean, in the leadershipposition, you do have to take
responsibility when things aregoing poorly or you do have to
(21:39):
be the one to step, step up andprovide some backup.
Um, when somebody who maybe hasa little bit less experience or
maybe a little bit lessopportunity to get things wrong,
uh, you know, needs a little bitof backup.
But I mean, how often have youheard a leader whom you admire
say it doesn't matter who getsthe credit, so long as we get
this done?
(21:59):
And I mean, I've certainly heardthat very often from people who
are accomplishing prettyextraordinary things.
So that seems like an importantconsideration.
Should we attribute it to aworld of short attention spans
We forget frequently.
We may have leaders who arestrong and talented and good at
(22:22):
what they do, but collectivelywe forget how much work it takes
to maintain that momentum.
We have to be mentoring thatrelationship business of not
just assuming that the personnext to me laterally, or that
I'm overseeing, that I'm helpingalong in an officer position at
(22:44):
a lodge, may not be absorbingeverything that I assume he is.
Yeah.
Is that, is that just thedigital world we're in?
We're so used to, we just fast,fast and assume that everyone
around us is absorbing it all.
I, I, I think you're ontosomething there.
I think it is also true thatleadership is always effortful
and that often peopleunderestimate that and I.
(23:08):
They don't have a view into thesleepless nights or the
consultation that people hadwith others before making up
their mind or all of the dataand analy analysis that went
into a decision, or all thecontextualization and the
debating back and forth whentheir view of it is, oh, okay,
this is where we landed.
This was the choice.
This was the public statementthat was made.
(23:29):
This is what my boss told me.
Um, I think we underestimatewhat's involved in that and uh,
and I think we reallyunderestimate what's involved in
mentoring.
You know, they're an awful lotof people out there.
Then when you ask them, have youever had a good, you know, who
was your best boss?
There are a significant numberof people who may be able to
(23:49):
say, I never have had a goodboss, actually.
Um, you know, mentoring takes alot of attention and, uh,
mentors need mentors as well onhow to do it well.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
We talk about mentoring.
In the Masonic world is beingrelationship building.
Mm-hmm.
(24:10):
And it lasts, should last alifetime.
Mm-hmm.
it's more than simply, well, wetalk about the mentor mentee.
I think about impactful mentorswere some of whom I didn't
realize what was happening atthe time.
It was almost that unintentionalmentor or that relationship, the
friendship that blossomed outtathat.
Mm-hmm.
(24:31):
How often do people say, I wantthis person to be my mentor?
Is it, is it, can that happennaturally?
Can we decide that?
I've had people occasionallycome to me and say, will you be
my mentor?
And I think, oh, I didn't knowthat was a thing that people
asked.
Right?
I mean, no pressure Sometimes,sometimes it's flattering and
sometimes it really makes sense.
Um, and I've had peers come andsay, Hey, you know, we're at a
(24:54):
stage in our careers where bothof us could be need mentors.
It's a little hard to findsometimes.
You wanna be each other'smentors, and that has turned out
to be a really beautiful thingbecause you're making a
commitment to really attend tothe other person's needs,
questions, doubts, strengths,limitations, and really pay
attention and try to supportthem in that and not just say,
(25:16):
you're doing great.
Right.
But be more specific.
Yeah.
You know, in order to beimpactful in a community, I
think you have to learn someskills of collaboration as well.
And that, I would say is alittle bit different from
connecting a leader with acommunity whom they serve and
are leading.
(25:37):
There's a certain amount oftraining out there in the
general world, and I thinkthat's probably part of the
Masonic Lodge culture as well inthat kind of ethical, personal
development and, and growth anda growth mindset.
But to be really impactful in acommunity, not just in an
organization or a brotherhood,but really in a broader
community, in a city or a town,um, or in a, a community of
(25:59):
identity, you really need tolearn how to collaborate with
others as well.
And that's not a skill that wenecessarily teach all that.
Well, do you mean collaborateinternally or with other groups?
Within our, often with othergroups, yes.
Right.
Um, I mean, there's been a lotof scholarship from sociology to
say that.
Um, professions, for example,that are really strict around
(26:22):
their buying boundaries.
You're either in or you're out,will often think that they're
doing something to protect theintegrity of who they are and to
strengthen themselves.
But those organizations orassociations that have really
strict boundaries about you'rein or you're out actually end up
being very brittle and brittle.
Organizations fail.
They break.
And so yeah, that externallooking externally making those
(26:47):
bridges, you know, it'simportant that you have bonds
within, but it's also veryimportant that you have bro
bridges out and you know,leadership development isn't
always oriented to that bridgebuilding.
And there's that opportunity toinsert ourselves in a
collaborative sense with anotherorganization within our
(27:09):
communities.
I.
that we don't feel like we haveto do it all by ourselves.
Well, if you could do it all byyourselves, it probably wouldn't
actually be a problem or reallyan untapped opportunity to begin
with.
I mean, you might be competingwith someone else if it's fairly
straightforward, but most of thetime, you know, the, kind of the
kinds of public issues thatconcern me, um, we don't have
(27:32):
enough childcare in ourcommunity.
We have an affordable housingproblem.
We have a workforce developmentproblem.
We are having a retention issuewith keeping young people in our
community.
We're concerned about publicsafety.
The quality of our schools is aconcern for us.
They may be great quality, butwe can't pay for it.
All of those things, if it werejust within the hands of, you
know, one leader, oneorganization, one sector, one
(27:55):
discipline to address, theywouldn't be challenging.
So if you're gonna address thosekinds of things, which I mean,
that is the real quality of lifequestion, if you wanna think
about how elders are cared forin your community.
You're not really gonna be ableto address that unless you are
able to work collaborativelyacross multiple organizations.
(28:15):
And yet we get into therumination trap where we know we
can't do it by ourselves, and weknow we should collaborate with
someone else, another group,another set of people, and yet
we just talk it to death.
Sometimes we keep looking forthat.
Well, wait a minute, let's keeptalking about it.
And until we come up with theperfect recipe or the exact
(28:38):
model of how we'll execute this,we better not do anything.
That it, it's hard and I thinkit's so hard.
I think that is also, um, partlygenerational.
I see it among, um, my youngerstudents.
I teach students that are from27 to 65.
I notice it particularly amongthe younger ones that they want
to know that they've got itfigured out before they launch.
(28:59):
Really?
I'm fascinated by that, of thatyounger perspective.
I think so, yeah.
A little bit more paralysis of,um, and I'm not making fun of
them.
No, no.
But it's, but like a little bitof the analysis paralysis.
Mm-hmm.
I've gotta get all of the factsin order and not misstep and,
um, you know, that, that reallywhat you're describing is we've
gotta ruminate, we gotta get itall sorted out before we launch.
(29:22):
I mean, of course people want tobe informed in their actions.
That's basically a good thing.
But there has to be a little bitof willingness to experiment and
take some risks as well.
And that's actually a reallycore part of what we teach at
the Center for IntegrativeLeadership is about.
Developing well-informed pilotprojects with the expectation
(29:42):
that you're going to iterate andsometimes you're gonna find a
great model and then you'regonna scale up and continue
doing more of it.
Sometimes you're gonna have topivot'cause you learned enough
from it, but it's not quite thething.
And so you learn and sometimesyou are going to fail and lay it
down and um, and that's okay.
It is okay.
And we do quite a lot to helppeople accept that.
(30:06):
And the interesting thing isthat when we talk with
nonprofit, um, government orbusiness leaders about.
Why don't you start smallinstead of starting big?
There's a lot of resistance tothat sometimes at the outset.
You clearly know us well.
Well, because like there's thebig thing, right?
There's the big thing we wannado the big the big thing.
(30:26):
Yes.
Home.
Home run.
Nothing.
Well, and then if you'veinvested in the big thing
emotionally or materially, yes.
If you've invested in the bigthing and it's not going very
well, it's kind of harder toadmit that it's not going very
well.
So you keep on going and thenyou're just, you know,
compounding the problem.
So we do a lot to coach peopleand I'm, I'm laughing because I
(30:47):
need to take this lesson inmyself sometimes.
Well, we all do, but to justlike start small.
Yeah, start small.
Starting small is a start.
Slow sustainable progress.
Yeah.
It's a re recurring theme onthis podcast.
And within our organization,some of the events.
Fundraisers, a communityengagement that lodges do
successfully have been a decadeor more of a little bit of
(31:11):
growth each year.
But yeah, we want a home run.
Yeah, we just wanna be anallstar.
And if something is tried, I seethis frequently, a lodge will
try something and if it's mildlysuccessful, well that was okay.
That was good.
But then the will or thewillpower to keep going and to
(31:33):
say, let's build on that.
Let's do that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
This much better.
Next time, next year, sixmonths.
That is a tough sell.
Yeah.
It's not very exciting.
And yet simply to survive andpersist, that is an
accomplishment.
Yes.
That's not something to takelightly.
And in fact.
(31:53):
If you're not tending to yourorganization in your efforts,
you're not gonna survive andpersist.
And so those, the, those smallincrements, um, I don't wanna be
an apologist for beingincremental instead of thinking
big, but I, I think if you wannathink big, you do have to work
incrementally also, you can'tjust have one or the other.
(32:17):
So how have you addressed someof these things?
You're really dealing with howwe're wired as humans.
Mm-hmm.
We know what we need to do, butthe path to get there may seem
either it takes too muchendurance.
Or passion or the ability tothink in that long-term
perspective and to be okay withslow sustainable 1% a day
(32:38):
progress.
I am about to start a strengthtraining program and I'm
wondering like if I will havethe proper mindset to know that
slow progress is, is the point.
Um, because I, I mean, I'm justacknowledging personally that I
understand the challenge ofaccepting and really embracing
(33:00):
the fact that like slow steadyprogress is a good thing.
But I think I have the advantageas an educator that I work with
students.
I also work with communitymembers, and as an educator it
is my job to support growth andgrowth is positive.
And so it is my role and peoplelook to me in that role to.
(33:20):
Affirm, encourage, um, hopefullynot just pat on the head, right?
Right.
But to support that growth andpeople are coming with a desire
to grow their skills, and sothat helps.
But when I work with communitymembers and alumni of various
programs, um, whom I, you know,often stay in touch with for
years, it is continuing to havethat conversation about, um, you
(33:43):
wanna maintain momentum so youdon't feel like you're just
treading water and you have todeal with disappointments, and
you have to deal with really,really tough things that are
going on in the world or in yourorganization or in your family,
whatever it may be.
How do you, and have a sense ofsome momentum that is motivating
(34:03):
instead of feeling like nothingis going anywhere.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And I think that's where you canuse that leadership circle too
sometimes to help you understandthat there have been times, like
in early peak COVID.
I was working with currentstudents who were mid-career
professionals in government andnonprofit organizations who were
on the front line of trying tokeep social service systems
(34:26):
going amidst an unprecedentedcrisis for our generation.
And sometimes in thosesituations it felt like the
world is overwhelming and you'retrying to figure out what to do
about this crisis that is uponus.
And actually the work thatyou've always been doing is
important.
It actually speaks to thiscrisis.
(34:47):
Keep doing what you're doing.
You don't have to have thesolution to everything.
It's all about progress.
Yeah.
In that case, progress is holdyourself together, have the
stamina, find your friends.
Do your best to take care ofyourself and keep going.
(35:07):
He talked about strengthtraining.
I.
Similar say like learning aforeign language.
Mm-hmm.
we all wanna be bilingual now,you know, I don't wanna know, I
don't want to conjugate verbs.
I just, I just want to be ableto converse with my family
member.
Is there a certain amount ofvalue in reviewing maybe in
arrears the progress that hasbeen made when it feels
(35:29):
discouraging looking forward?
Is it healthy to look back andsay, well look, look at all the
progress I have made that wehave made that are, or that are
that my lodge made?
Oh, definitely.
In community outreach or infundraising for something.
Absolutely.
And I think of this sometimes asa sort of 50 50 proposition
that.
(35:50):
We often learn leadership byworking on a project, by working
on a particular objective.
And it's hard to learnleadership kind of in a vacuum
without having some practicalthing that we're working on.
It's also hard to accomplish thepractical thing without having
leadership.
Sometimes the practical thingdoesn't go well, but there's
still leadership growthsometimes.
(36:12):
You didn't really grow as aleader though.
You did accomplish the thing.
Right.
And so I think sometimes thatlooking in arrears is, helps us
to see those lessons learned.
And um, I'm just gonna give ashort example if I can.
Yeah.
The very first time that Itaught, I come from a long line
(36:32):
of teachers.
Everybody in my family who's hadthe benefit of a college
education has been an educatorof one kind or another.
Sometimes the school nurse,sometimes the HR professional
for the elementary school, butmost of them classroom teachers.
I was the last one to figure outthat that's what I wanted to do.
So I went and I taught a class,um, first semester and I came
back and I saw my advisor and Ishared with her the feedback
(36:54):
forms that I got.
'cause I wanted to learn to be abetter teacher.
And she said, well, it's clearthat your students know that you
care about the learning.
I was like, well, yeah.
I mean, tell me something Ididn't know.
And she was like, no, youshouldn't take that for granted
actually.
How many teachers have you hadthat you didn't learn very much
(37:18):
from, or you didn't progress oryou felt discouraged?
If you go back and look at it,how many of those teachers
didn't really demonstrate to youthat they did care about your
learning?
Maybe they didn't actually care.
Maybe they didn't communicate itwell.
Maybe they didn't connect itwith you.
Well, I have held onto that nowfor 17 years of teaching that
she told me that after my veryfirst semester, and I would
(37:42):
never have noticed that aboutmyself if she hadn't pointed it
out.
And it ends up being a reallycrucial kind of north star of
how it is that I teach.
So we all need that kind ofhelp.
Somebody to help you see thething that is so much a part of
you or how you do things thatyou don't even see it.
It's powerful.
(38:02):
pivotal for you, even for retainheld onto that all this time.
It makes perfect sense.
She was a very gifted mentor andwas able to see something that I
needed to be explicit about.
That's huge.
That's a great story.
Well, and one of the things I'velearned about that also was an
(38:23):
adaptation of how to help peoplestep off a path that they're on.
So, fairly early on, then Ilearned, you know, maybe a third
of the way into a semester, notmore than a third, somewhere
between a quarter and a third ofthe way through the semester
when I'm concerned about astudent, I will say.
I'm concerned about yourprogress, your attendance,
(38:45):
whatever it may be.
Um, I can help you if you wishto be helped.
And very often that opens a doorfor a student to be like, oh, I
do maybe need some help.
Maybe she can help me.
But every once in a whilethere's also that student's
like, yeah, I don't wanna behelped.
And they step off, you know, thetrack.
And that is actually a goodthing for them to realize, like,
(39:08):
this is not, I'm not this, thisis not the right time.
This is not the right thing.
Um, but so I've learned thatcommunicating that can be
helpful.
I don't know if there's a biggerleadership message there.
Well, everybody's good atsomething and we all have areas
of opportunity.
Right.
And you know, to go back to thatcollaborative leadership team
(39:29):
too, you actually needcomplimentary teams.
And so you need to learn theskill also of working in a team.
Well, as a leader, because it'sfine.
I, I don't know you very well,so let's just say you're not a
visual person.
Okay.
And I'm more of a visual personand you're more of a verbal
person.
Uh, it's actually gonna be toour advantage.
If we know that about oneanother and we can appreciate
(39:52):
that in each other, then we aregonna deliver a better, we're,
we're gonna deliver better interms of, um, connecting with a
broader group of people and, andhelping to lead them and helping
to communicate better.
So, it's okay.
You don't have to be good at,you don't have to hit every
mark, but the self-awareness andthe humility and the ability to
connect with the other peoplewho are part of your team is the
(40:12):
skill.
What are your thoughts on theimportance of community
associations as a public policyscholar?
Um, I am increasingly concernedabout, I.
Political polarization anddivision.
Um, I'm also just concernedabout loneliness and people's
(40:35):
isolation.
And I think to some degree, as asociety, we are losing the skill
of being able to bridge andconnect across different
generations, different politicalviews, different religions,
different life experiences,whatever it may be.
And so associations, and this isone of the very positive
(40:58):
impressions that I have of theMasonic Lodge actually, that you
do really encourage people toconnect at a human level, to
support one another'sdevelopment, to support one
another, to make thoughtfulchoices.
And I mean thoughtful, like inthe broadest sense of the word,
right?
Um.
I mean, you espouse educationand truth and learning and um,
(41:21):
you know, thinking throughthings, but also thoughtfulness
around kind of ethicalleadership and leading with
integrity and connecting.
I think associations that helppeople to continue to be their
better selves and to beconnected with others who are
different from themselves are arare thing that we really, um,
(41:44):
we need that more than ever.
And, um, people may take thatfor granted if they're in that
kind of an association or theyhave the opportunity of being in
that culture.
But our culture more broadlyneeds more of that.
We often look at the fact thatwhile involvement in civic
groups may be down compared tothe glory days of 60, 70 years
(42:08):
ago, what we stand for isFreemasons.
You alluded to personal growth.
Building community, authenticfriendship, brotherhood, not
being a buzzword or just thatlittle platitude, but really
having a heart to heartconnection with another friend
and in an organization that hasalways been, I, I really feel
(42:30):
like part of why we're still inbusiness today.
We are apolitical non, and yetthe world outside just doesn't
want to acknowledge, well, ifyou and I don't think exactly
the same, we can't be friendsand we want to get back to that.
We want to get back to a placewhere, yeah, maybe, maybe the
(42:53):
four people at the table allhave opposing views on whatever
it is.
That does not mean that weshould not be friends,
colleagues spend time togetherand try to try to understand one
another.
Without just that, that writeoff.
It's so fast in this world.
(43:13):
It feels I absolutely agree withthat.
and it's very important tocombine that with, to be able to
get along with someone with whomyou disagree should not mean
that you're actually leavingyour cares and your values and
your passions at the door.
Like what, what I feel we reallyneed, and this is part of
(43:33):
leadership, it's also part ofcommunity life, it's, and
associations and working onthose public opportunities and
problems, is we need people whodo know who they are and who are
always open to learning and whocan see one another's common
humanity.
And so it's not really about,oh, we don't talk politics at
Thanksgiving'cause we don't wantconflict.
(43:55):
That, that may be fine forThanksgiving is probably a good
thing for Thanksgiving, but youactually want associations where
people are gonna have quite.
Deeply held differences and yetalso still truly respect and
love one another.
What's the first step?
Listening and, and I think alsojust a basic stance of basic
(44:20):
respect and, um, a foundationalassumption of the other person's
humanity, and dignity andupholding that with respect, but
then really having the skill oflistening.
Yeah.
Listening.
It's all about, in Freemasonry,we talk about silence and
circumspection.
Take it in.
(44:41):
Listen until it hurts.
That's hard.
That's interesting to me.
And I'll leave it to you whetheryou wanna go there or not, but I
did not know about the silenceand circumspection piece, and
maybe that is part of theaffinity that I feel in so far
as I understand anything aboutthe masons because I, I was
(45:04):
raised Quaker and I'm still apracticing Quaker.
Oh.
And so, silence, reflection, awillingness to take things in
and spend some time with them,um, is certainly part of my DNA.
all of our core values, we areencouraged to practice.
(45:30):
Mm-hmm.
I often talk to younger men andtheir families.
They'll say, I want to become aFreemason so you guys can tell
me how I should.
I think, well, we don't tell youhow to do anything.
We provide the tools mm-hmm.
On how you and each of usindividually can commit to
becoming that better version ofourself, knowing we'll never be
(45:52):
perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Impossible to get to thatstatus, to that point, but to be
self-aware.
Mm-hmm.
Listen, more than we talk.
Mm-hmm.
Try to understand one anothermore and more.
The world seems to be cravingthat, and yet I.
Trips on itself to let thatmanifest itself.
(46:16):
Well, and there's an ininteresting tension culturally
between, um, curiosity and aconstant commitment almost
sometimes I think an obsessivesort of self-serving desire for
constant growth, constantgrowth, constant growth, which
is a little bit of a fast cycleof consumption.
I, you know, I, I think therecan be some tension between that
(46:38):
and a desire that many peoplehave to just be told what to do,
right?
And it is quite different to begiven.
Like, here's the maxim for howto behave versus let me ask you
a question that helps youinterpret your own situation and
find your way to how it is thatyou should behave.
(47:01):
Um, people don't always have thepatience for that.
It's like, on one hand I want toknow the path and then the path
is laid out, but oh man, thattakes a lot of patience and
willpower and commitment andIt's a journey.
Right.
That was easy.
Yeah, exactly.
No, it wasn't, but thanks forthat.
(47:21):
Check that off my list now.
As we start to wind down ourtime today, what has been
something in your work with aCenter for integrative
leadership that you've seen astransformative mm-hmm.
That that really stands out aslike a highlight moment for you?
(47:45):
Hmm.
It's hard to identify one,because sometimes as an
educator, the highlights arekind of the gestalt of the whole
thing where you can see thatlike the minds are turning.
sometimes it's marked by silencebecause people are like, whoa,
okay.
I gotta, I gotta think aboutthat.
(48:06):
Um, sometimes there's, there's alot of, uh, uh, clarity.
So I think in many ways it'sjust when you're in that kind of
like peak learning moment whereyou know that the wheels are
turning and that you've kind ofshaken things up a little bit,
that it can be very helpful.
Um, I, I certainly feel like wehave a wonderful advisory
council for the Center forIntegr of leadership of, um,
(48:29):
philanthropic nonprofitgovernment business leaders who
are really, you know, kind of atthe height of their profession.
Very well-regarded people whoare very generous to give their
time as advisors, and theycertainly feel like.
If ever there were a time tomake the case for cross-sector
leadership, this is certainlyit.
Um, we're in, you know, we're inchallenging times, and so I
(48:51):
don't know that that's a momentthat I'm particularly proud of.
Um, I think it is just a sensethat our mission is more
important than ever.
In our effort to get to knowguests better.
Mm-hmm.
What are you good at that youdon't enjoy doing?
(49:12):
Uh.
We have this conversation prettyoften in our family with my
daughter, um, that just'causeyou're good at something doesn't
mean that you have to love itand sometimes you have to do
things that you're good at even.
So what am I good at that Idon't love doing?
Um, well, years ago I could havesaid dish washing because I
(49:33):
lived in graduate studenthousing.
We didn't have a dishwasher andwe had a baby and there was
quite a bit of, um, dish washingto do and constant had to do it.
Um, and I did not enjoy it.
Now I actually kind of enjoy mydish washing'cause it's time to
let my mind just float and freeassociate.
Um, I could probably be good atcleaning, but I do not enjoy it.
(49:56):
what interest do you wish morepeople shared with you?
Hmm.
Well, I recently, um, completelyenjoyed the pleasure of a
conversation with a friendly andinteresting stranger.
And I'm not always up fortalking to strangers.
(50:18):
Sometimes I just need some spaceand some solitude.
But I was absolutely delighted.
Like, absolutely delighted andfull of love for the three other
people that I was with myhusband and these two women who
just sat down across the tablefrom us on Saturday.
And we sat there for a full hourand just had a completely
delightful conversation.
(50:39):
And I do wish that that was amore common thing of just
connecting with strangers.
We never anticipate how powerfuland authentic that is.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
This is remarkable.
These two very remarkablepeople, um, that.
I mean, you don't care abouttheir life story.
(51:01):
I don't really know them.
But you know, this woman who hadmoved when she was 14 years old
to become a nanny in a differentcountry like that is a powerful
history that I would never haveguessed that, and I wouldn't
have contemplated what that islike unless we happened to sit
across the table from eachother.
(51:25):
The next time I'm on a flight,I'm gonna resist the temptation
to put my AirPods in right away,and maybe we'll see if that
conversation happens.
See, for me, flights are likethe one time I can work without
being interrupted.
Oh, I would not take well tothat.
So my taste for this comes andgoes.
Dr.
Kathy quick.
Thank you for being our guesttoday on Minnesota Masonic
(51:48):
Histories and Mysteries, thework you're doing at the Center
for Integrative Leadership.
Tremendous.
Thank you very much for havingme.
It was really a pleasure.
I.
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