April 18, 2025 • 22 mins
Takeaways:
- Sitting in someone else's pain is way more helpful than throwing around advice.
- When we're hurt, we just want someone to be there, not preach at us, right?
- Jesus totally gets our mess and still loves us like crazy; that’s grace in action!
- The cross is like the ultimate rescue mission for the most messed-up among us.
- It's not about how good we are; it's about how good He is for us.
- We all need to remember that God loves us despite our failures, not because of our successes.
Buckle up, because this episode is all about the messy, real, and sometimes uncomfortable truth of sitting with pain. Our trio of misfit pastors—Jean, Byron, and Tullian—are rolling up their sleeves and diving into the nitty-gritty of what it means to be present with those who are suffering. Instead of dishing out advice or trying to play the hero, they emphasize the power of just being there, sharing the load without trying to fix it. They share their own experiences of failure and grace, reminding us that Jesus came to rescue the most messed-up among us. It’s a light-hearted yet serious conversation that blends humor with heartfelt truths about God’s grace and the importance of community in times of struggle. So, whether you’re feeling lost or just want to know how to better support your friends, this episode is a must-listen, packed with wisdom, laughter, and plenty of grace!
Chapters:
- 00:28 - The Significance of the Cross
- 05:54 - The Significance of the Cross in Christianity
- 07:26 - The Nature of Substitution in Christianity
- 13:20 - The Necessity of Christ's Fulfillment of the Law
- 18:25 - The Glorious Exchange: Understanding the Gospel
- 19:56 - The Power of the Cross and Good Friday
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to the misfitpreachers Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue, and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
So, guys, we're tackling thesubject matter of Easter and some
(00:22):
high points that happen inthat episode with Christ, including
the Lord's Supper, which wetalked about.
The very next high point thathappens in that event is the cross
itself.
Now, I think we could assumethat we know a lot about what's going
on in the cross, why the crosswas necessary.
But I think it's important toreiterate that and come at it from
(00:44):
the perspective of grace,what's happening in that space with
the cross of Christ.
So we want to discuss thatbecause that's on the horizon here
as well.
So I'll just state thequestion simply, why the cross?
Why is the cross necessary?
And quite frankly, why do wecelebrate it?
(01:04):
Paul says in Romans, the wagesof sin is death.
The cross was necessarybecause we're sinners.
I mean, that's as simply as Ican put it.
In fact, the cross is.
Is a loud statement that weare sinners, that all of us are sinners.
(01:29):
So anybody who would want toconclude that they're good with God,
that their righteousness isall that it's cracked up to be, and
that by doing the right thingand checking the right boxes, they
can make themselves right with God.
That essentially justificationis by works.
(01:50):
The cross.
I mean, the cross reallycontradicts that as explicitly as
possible.
Yeah.
From the get go, when mankindsinned, God said, a penalty has entered,
and the penalty for the sin ofhuman flesh is the death of human
flesh.
There must be atonement made.
(02:12):
Human flesh violated acovenant with God, so human flesh
will be cut off from God.
You got to start with the baseline.
So that's there.
You jump through every OldTestament prophet, all the books
you skip, right, you jumpthrough all of those, and in every
one of them, there's thispicture, this bloody loud, difficult
(02:35):
sacrifice over and over andover again.
That's casting this shadowforward to Good Friday when the Lamb
of God that John so correctlyidentified goes for the last time
to the altar and had to go inhuman flesh because human flesh was
(02:58):
the modality in which thetreachery against God was committed.
So you cannot punish bulls andgoats for the sins of human flesh,
and it had to be perfect flesh.
Therein lies the problem.
There is no one who could havebeen Sacrificed other than the perfection
of the Son of God to besufficient to atone, to make.
(03:22):
I mean, atonement is payment.
Yeah, don't miss what Johnsaid in the.
In particular, that takes awaythe sins of the world, in contrast
to the sacrifice that had tobe repeated over and over, the final
sacrifice.
You know, when I think aboutgiving the listener and even myself
(03:44):
a new angle at the cross toappreciate and understand what's
happening on the cross, Ithink we typically.
And it's true in part that thereal dilemma with regard to the cross
was our sin.
And you mentioned that.
And it is true.
That's clearly what this isabout on a certain level.
(04:06):
But the story could have endedin Genesis chapter three, and God
would have been just in that.
Which means that the realissue being dealt with on the cross
is God himself who determinedto save and redeem sinners.
And as a result of that, thereis an enormous conflict ahead.
(04:27):
How do we reconcile thenecessity of God to judge sin and
the desire of God and thedecree of God and the will of God
to love sinners?
I mean, if you, if you readthe Bible through this lens of how
is this going to happen?
How is this going to be accomplished?
How is God going to be God andrighteous and judge and love sinners
(04:49):
at the same time?
And Paul addresses this, he'sthe just and the justifier.
How in the world does thattake place in history?
You read the Bible, Christemerges, offers himself as a sacrifice
according to the will and thedecree of the Father.
And on the cross, in theperson of Christ, the dilemma of
(05:11):
God is resolved in that hisjustice is poured out and his mercy
meets it there.
He remains righteous and heremains merciful at the same time
towards sinners.
So the complexity of whathappened there at the cross is way
beyond what we typically imagine.
But mercy and justice meet andGod is vindicated on the cross.
(05:39):
And all of creation looks atthe Father and says, it's what Paul
called a mystery hidden fromthe foundation of the world.
How in the world is this goingto happen?
And Jesus was the answer tothat question.
That's the cross.
And I think the thing that thecross shouts so loudly and so clearly
(06:00):
that we miss oftentimes inreligious circles is that the essence
of Christianity is not ourtransformation, it's Christ's substitution.
Substitution is the name ofthe game in Christianity.
It's what separatesChristianity from every other philosophy,
every other world religion.
(06:21):
That it is primarily about substitution.
That Jesus did not comeprimarily to be an example.
He came primarily to be Asubstitute that he fulfilled the
law that was required, that hedied the death of a law breaker.
One of the ways that I oftenput it is that the.
(06:42):
The lawmaker became a lawkeeper and died for us, the lawbreakers.
That's what makes us rightwith God.
God makes us right with God.
We don't make ourselves rightwith God.
The, the symbol of theChristian faith is not a ladder.
It's a cross.
And I think, if anything, howwe can moralize the cross, which
(07:05):
we've.
Well, for many, many, manydecades and generations, we look
at the cross and somehow eventhere, we make it about us and what
we now need to do rather thanGod and what he's done for us.
I mean, it is such a loud andclear statement that God makes us
(07:25):
right with God.
The name of the game inChristianity is substitution, not
transformation.
That is relieving to me, and Iknow it's relieving to a lot of other
people, because if I'm reallyhonest, if Christ about my transformation
rather than Christ'ssubstitution, I'm in trouble.
I mean, I haven't transformedthat much.
(07:46):
And in some areas where I've.
There are some areas in whichI may have gotten better over the
years, but then there areother areas in which I've gotten
worse.
And then there are a lot ofareas that have just stayed static
the same.
So if this thing is about myclimb, my transformation, I'm screwed.
And the cross is God's loudeststatement that this isn't about us
(08:06):
and what we do for him, it'sabout him and what he's done for
us.
Well, and once and forever putthe flag in the ground.
We do not have faith in grace.
We have faith in Jesus.
Jesus's atonement for us is apicture of grace.
And that is the point.
The reason we can say it isokay that you're not okay is because
(08:29):
on that Good Friday, Jesus wasleft to die where I deserve to be.
So now I am set free from theweight and the penalty of my sin.
Because there is an objectivereality that happened in the judicial
court of God, the just whosaid, I can no longer hold Jean Larue
(08:51):
accountable for sins that werepaid for in the blood of the perfect
Son of God.
That is why we love grace.
Not because we love the word grace.
Grace.
Right.
And I mean, the fact thatJesus fulfilled all of God's perfect
(09:11):
conditions means that ourrelationship to God can now be perfectly
unconditional.
That God does not count oursins against us because he counted
our sins against Christ.
That's the ministry ofreconciliation that Paul is referring
to.
It's God first and foremost,reconciling us to himself by what
(09:36):
he has done, what he wasdetermined to do before the foundation
world, and not by anything we do.
You know, I've listened tothese sorts of conversations before
on various podcasts and peoplehaving these discussions.
And when I'm hearing thesethings explained, which are really
just elementary things that weforget because we put so many layers
(10:00):
on top of what all of thesethings mean.
But at the end of the day,what we're talking about is what
you're describing in a, in ajustification that is given to us
by faith, by Jesus works acondemnation that he took on himself.
When I hear this, and I getright back to the root of the gospel,
that it's not about myaccomplishment, it's about Christ's
(10:20):
accomplishment on my behalfthat I received through faith.
It has such a liberatingeffect on so many levels.
And even I'm listening to youguys go back and forth on this.
So many fears are dissolvedthat are at the root of my life and
all of my struggles.
Which takes me back to thismessage that I am completely known
(10:44):
in all of my sin and darknessand struggles, that God sent his
son to die on my behalf and Iam completely and unconditionally
loved, is the most liberatingmessage on the planet.
You mentioned Jesus example aminute ago, that a lot of people
moralize it and want to follow it.
Jay Gresham Machen in his bookChristianity and Liberalism, who
(11:05):
is the Presbyterian guytheologian out there.
He said, no, I'm very thankfulfor the example of Jesus that knowing
that if I try to follow it, itwill kill me.
What it makes me thankful foris the life and the death resurrection
(11:26):
of Jesus.
We were discussing at anothertime, John, that Jesus didn't come
to this planet as a full grown adult.
He was born in humility, liveda life for 33 years, and then all
these events we're talkingabout took place.
So why the life?
Well, the life was what Johnand he, when he was talking to John
(11:48):
the Baptist and wanted to be baptized.
John says, I'm not doing that.
Jesus says, allowed at thistime that all righteousness might
be fulfilled.
And then Jesus lived a perfectlife, became a perfect sacrifice,
was raised from the dead andall of that is mine.
When Jesus looks on me or whenGod looks on me, he sees the perfection
(12:08):
of Jesus.
And materially, temporally,that's not true legally by faith,
absolutely true.
When Romans 8:1 says there'sno condemnation.
The truth underneath that isthat the work of Christ was so satisfying
to the Father that throughChrist, Christ made it impossible
(12:29):
for the Father to condemn meand not contradict his own righteousness.
That's exactly, that's howwell said.
That's how fixed it is.
Yeah.
Not, not to get passionate.
You're in spittle range here.
But that's the reality of the cross.
And I'm so thankful for youguys to, to bring out these angles
and perspective on it.
(12:51):
And it's, it's such a simplething to reiterate, but we get so
far from it and people getdrugged down into their own meritocracy
here.
And as we said at anotherplace, pastors have such the capacity
to create a meritocracy withinthe walls of grace here.
Yeah.
And it is impossible to dothat with the cross.
(13:13):
It's impossible.
So how would you guys respondto this statement?
Technically speaking, we'renot saved apart from the law.
We are saved in Christ whoperfectly kept the law on our behalf.
And I think that's, for me,that's an important distinction to
(13:34):
make because it gives credenceto the necessity of him having to
live those 33 years before hewent to the cross.
I did not come to abolish thelaw, he says in Matthew.
I came to fulfill it.
To dot every I and cross every.
T.
It has to.
I mean, we are saved by works,just not our own.
That's right.
(13:54):
The end.
Hard stop.
Right, Right.
That's the truth.
And I remember saying one timeopposing the question that I got
a lot of these cross eyedlooks like, what kind of sicko comes
up with this question?
And my question was, whyweren't Christmas and Easter on the
same day?
Right?
Why not?
Was the blood of baby Jesusnot pure?
(14:16):
Was he not totally righteous?
Was he not the Son of God?
If we all we needed was aperfect sacrificial lamb who was
willing, then theconsciousness of God in the person
of Christ, the child wouldhave been a sufficient atonement.
Herod had already sent out the goons.
(14:37):
The swords were drawn.
Why not baby Jesus?
And the answer is exactly whatyou just said.
The law must be kept.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, to be fulfilled.
It's the lepers, right?
Go show yourself to the priest.
Jesus didn't even waver onothers keeping the law.
He was like, nope.
I still, it will still be upheld.
(14:57):
So the 33 years that he livedwas to keep the law.
That was, what is the, what isthe righteousness that God requires
that we must be as holy as heis holy.
Leviticus 19:2.
I can't do it.
So he did it for me.
If you push it even further, asecond member of the Trinity taking
on human form, there was noneed for him to come take on human
(15:21):
form, take the law on himselfand obey it.
There was no need for him todo that, to improve his standing
before the Father.
The only reason he did thatwas for me and you and those who
would believe.
His entire mission was tofulfill that space and those acts
(15:44):
and that work.
So when you begin to thinkabout the cross and the righteousness
of Christ leading up to thecross, the perfect sacrifice of Christ,
there's, you know, thetechnical term is double imputation.
Sorry for multi syllabic word.
But he my deservedcondemnation on that cross, that's
(16:08):
me dying in Christ.
Perfect righteousness acceptedon that cross.
In that sacrifice, thatrighteousness is mine by faith.
Both things took place there.
I mean, it's mind boggling.
It's what Athanasius calledthe glorious exchange.
Incredible.
All of my sin is imputed to him.
All of his righteousness isimputed to me.
(16:29):
Probably the best, the bestway that I've come up to illustrate
this, come up with toillustrate this is imagine, John,
you're $40 million in debt.
There's no way in hell you'regoing to be able in your lifetime
to pay this back.
It's affecting your marriage,it's affecting your kids.
You know that your kids aregoing to take on your debt after
(16:53):
you're gone.
And probably given the size ofyour debt, your grandkids and maybe
even your great grandkids,that some of your bad decision making
financially has costgenerations of your family an opportunity
to get ahead.
And you're not sleeping at night.
You're.
I mean, this is, this is thedark cloud over your entire life.
(17:14):
And you make an appointment atthe bank to go try to negotiate a
lower interest rate on some loans.
And the bank president meetsyou in the lobby and says, Sean,
you're never going to believethis, but some guy who wants to remain
anonymous walked in here thismorning and paid your debt in full.
(17:35):
You are no longer in debt.
You are a debt free man.
That $30 million that you owethat you were never going to be able
to pay back in your lifetime,gone, Wiped clean.
And you're thinking, okay, amI on Candid Camera?
This is a joke.
This is a sick joke.
Why are you messing with melike this?
And the guy assures you, no,this is.
It is.
He shows you some paperworkand says, dude, it's done.
(17:57):
You're getting ready to dobackflips home, all the way home
to tell Valerie and to tellyour family.
And before you can get out thedoor, the bank president says, stop.
That's not it.
Not only did this guy pay offyour $30 million debt, he deposited
$100 million into your accountso that even if your spending habits
(18:21):
never change, you can never,ever go into debt again.
That's the gospel.
Spending habits is probablythe most important phrase in that
whole thing.
Exactly.
It doesn't depend upon yourspending habits.
You're never gonna run out of money.
Right.
And that's.
And that is.
I mean, that's the gospel.
It's not just that my debt hasbeen paid.
(18:42):
It's that a deposit has been made.
And that that deposit that hasbeen made is the perfect fulfillment
of every jot and tittle of the law.
That perfect law keeping isnow deposited into our account so
that when God relates to us,he relates to us no differently than
he relates to his Son.
It's so, so powerful.
(19:03):
You know, do you.
You know how people, when theygo to read the Bible, they look at
the Old Testament and theysay, that's a God of wrath and a
God of judgment in there.
And that's why I like the New Testament.
Huge misunderstanding.
The greatest demonstration ofthe pouring out of the wrath of God
on sin happens in the NewTestament that completely eclipses
(19:28):
anything that happened before,which was just shadows and that wrath
was outpoured on the cross.
There's more wrath to goaround in the New Testament on the
cross than the entire biblical landscape.
And all of that was to satisfywhat was necessary for God to bring
me to himself.
Well, and I'll say this, thereare people listening who go, good
(19:53):
Friday, Good Friday.
The death of Jesus.
Good Friday.
Because their account, thedebt that they have accumulated is
so unmanageable that theythink, there's no way I can pay it.
And herein lies Good Friday.
It's the exchange.
(20:14):
Jesus has entered thecourtroom on your behalf.
And I had a professor inseminary who said he was describing
us.
And it was one of the few daysthat I have no notes from that day,
none.
Because I just listened.
And he said on the cross,Jesus cried out, my God, my God,
(20:34):
why have you forsaken me?
And he asked the question, hesaid, have you ever seen a baby in
a crib when a door getsslammed in a house?
He said, the arms go up, thelegs go in the air, and the child
screams because they're free falling.
He said on the cross, Jesusfree fell from the face of the Father
(20:56):
and said, why am I forsaken?
And he did that for you.
Your sins are not too big.
They are not too great.
They are not too often, theyare not too regular.
Jesus died on your behalf.
That is why we call it Good Friday.
And this isn't just theology talk.
(21:17):
This is the basis of a freelife right here, right now.
This is the only solution tothe guilt and the shame and the regret
that we all sometimes feelbecause of our failures, because
of our secrets, because of our struggles.
This is the liberating powerthat sets us free from being so weighed
(21:41):
down by our lack ofperformance for God and others.
If people really knew who Iwas, they wouldn't love me.
God really knows who you areand he loves you anyway.
He knows more about you thanyou know about yourself.
And the whole reason he evencan love you as unconditionally as
(22:01):
he loves his son is because ofhis son.
Done.
Perfect.
Thanks guys.
Like I said, just in hearingit, what you just reiterated about
all of my fears, all of mystruggles, how that gets dissolved
in this reality in a moment,is so true and it's so powerful.
I know that'll be the effecton people that hear this.
(22:25):
You've been listening to themisfit preachers likes.
Subscribe and share more gracecentered resources at prodigalpodcasts.
Com.
That's prodigal P R O D I G AL podcasts with an S Com.
You're listening to the misfitpreachers Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue, and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
So, guys, we're tackling thesubject matter of Easter and some
(00:22):
high points that happen inthat episode with Christ, including
the Lord's Supper, which wetalked about.
The very next high point thathappens in that event is the cross
itself.
Now, I think we could assumethat we know a lot about what's going
on in the cross, why the crosswas necessary.
But I think it's important toreiterate that and come at it from
(00:44):
the perspective of grace,what's happening in that space with
the cross of Christ.
So we want to discuss thatbecause that's on the horizon here
as well.
So I'll just state thequestion simply, why the cross?
Why is the cross necessary?
And quite frankly, why do wecelebrate it?
(01:04):
Paul says in Romans, the wagesof sin is death.
The cross was necessarybecause we're sinners.
I mean, that's as simply as Ican put it.
In fact, the cross is.
Is a loud statement that weare sinners, that all of us are sinners.
(01:29):
So anybody who would want toconclude that they're good with God,
that their righteousness isall that it's cracked up to be, and
that by doing the right thingand checking the right boxes, they
can make themselves right with God.
That essentially justificationis by works.
(01:50):
The cross.
I mean, the cross reallycontradicts that as explicitly as
possible.
Yeah.
From the get go, when mankindsinned, God said, a penalty has entered,
and the penalty for the sin ofhuman flesh is the death of human
flesh.
There must be atonement made.
(02:12):
Human flesh violated acovenant with God, so human flesh
will be cut off from God.
You got to start with the baseline.
So that's there.
You jump through every OldTestament prophet, all the books
you skip, right, you jumpthrough all of those, and in every
one of them, there's thispicture, this bloody loud, difficult
(02:35):
sacrifice over and over andover again.
That's casting this shadowforward to Good Friday when the Lamb
of God that John so correctlyidentified goes for the last time
to the altar and had to go inhuman flesh because human flesh was
(02:58):
the modality in which thetreachery against God was committed.
So you cannot punish bulls andgoats for the sins of human flesh,
and it had to be perfect flesh.
Therein lies the problem.
There is no one who could havebeen Sacrificed other than the perfection
of the Son of God to besufficient to atone, to make.
(03:22):
I mean, atonement is payment.
Yeah, don't miss what Johnsaid in the.
In particular, that takes awaythe sins of the world, in contrast
to the sacrifice that had tobe repeated over and over, the final
sacrifice.
You know, when I think aboutgiving the listener and even myself
(03:44):
a new angle at the cross toappreciate and understand what's
happening on the cross, Ithink we typically.
And it's true in part that thereal dilemma with regard to the cross
was our sin.
And you mentioned that.
And it is true.
That's clearly what this isabout on a certain level.
(04:06):
But the story could have endedin Genesis chapter three, and God
would have been just in that.
Which means that the realissue being dealt with on the cross
is God himself who determinedto save and redeem sinners.
And as a result of that, thereis an enormous conflict ahead.
(04:27):
How do we reconcile thenecessity of God to judge sin and
the desire of God and thedecree of God and the will of God
to love sinners?
I mean, if you, if you readthe Bible through this lens of how
is this going to happen?
How is this going to be accomplished?
How is God going to be God andrighteous and judge and love sinners
(04:49):
at the same time?
And Paul addresses this, he'sthe just and the justifier.
How in the world does thattake place in history?
You read the Bible, Christemerges, offers himself as a sacrifice
according to the will and thedecree of the Father.
And on the cross, in theperson of Christ, the dilemma of
(05:11):
God is resolved in that hisjustice is poured out and his mercy
meets it there.
He remains righteous and heremains merciful at the same time
towards sinners.
So the complexity of whathappened there at the cross is way
beyond what we typically imagine.
But mercy and justice meet andGod is vindicated on the cross.
(05:39):
And all of creation looks atthe Father and says, it's what Paul
called a mystery hidden fromthe foundation of the world.
How in the world is this goingto happen?
And Jesus was the answer tothat question.
That's the cross.
And I think the thing that thecross shouts so loudly and so clearly
(06:00):
that we miss oftentimes inreligious circles is that the essence
of Christianity is not ourtransformation, it's Christ's substitution.
Substitution is the name ofthe game in Christianity.
It's what separatesChristianity from every other philosophy,
every other world religion.
(06:21):
That it is primarily about substitution.
That Jesus did not comeprimarily to be an example.
He came primarily to be Asubstitute that he fulfilled the
law that was required, that hedied the death of a law breaker.
One of the ways that I oftenput it is that the.
(06:42):
The lawmaker became a lawkeeper and died for us, the lawbreakers.
That's what makes us rightwith God.
God makes us right with God.
We don't make ourselves rightwith God.
The, the symbol of theChristian faith is not a ladder.
It's a cross.
And I think, if anything, howwe can moralize the cross, which
(07:05):
we've.
Well, for many, many, manydecades and generations, we look
at the cross and somehow eventhere, we make it about us and what
we now need to do rather thanGod and what he's done for us.
I mean, it is such a loud andclear statement that God makes us
(07:25):
right with God.
The name of the game inChristianity is substitution, not
transformation.
That is relieving to me, and Iknow it's relieving to a lot of other
people, because if I'm reallyhonest, if Christ about my transformation
rather than Christ'ssubstitution, I'm in trouble.
I mean, I haven't transformedthat much.
(07:46):
And in some areas where I've.
There are some areas in whichI may have gotten better over the
years, but then there areother areas in which I've gotten
worse.
And then there are a lot ofareas that have just stayed static
the same.
So if this thing is about myclimb, my transformation, I'm screwed.
And the cross is God's loudeststatement that this isn't about us
(08:06):
and what we do for him, it'sabout him and what he's done for
us.
Well, and once and forever putthe flag in the ground.
We do not have faith in grace.
We have faith in Jesus.
Jesus's atonement for us is apicture of grace.
And that is the point.
The reason we can say it isokay that you're not okay is because
(08:29):
on that Good Friday, Jesus wasleft to die where I deserve to be.
So now I am set free from theweight and the penalty of my sin.
Because there is an objectivereality that happened in the judicial
court of God, the just whosaid, I can no longer hold Jean Larue
(08:51):
accountable for sins that werepaid for in the blood of the perfect
Son of God.
That is why we love grace.
Not because we love the word grace.
Grace.
Right.
And I mean, the fact thatJesus fulfilled all of God's perfect
(09:11):
conditions means that ourrelationship to God can now be perfectly
unconditional.
That God does not count oursins against us because he counted
our sins against Christ.
That's the ministry ofreconciliation that Paul is referring
to.
It's God first and foremost,reconciling us to himself by what
(09:36):
he has done, what he wasdetermined to do before the foundation
world, and not by anything we do.
You know, I've listened tothese sorts of conversations before
on various podcasts and peoplehaving these discussions.
And when I'm hearing thesethings explained, which are really
just elementary things that weforget because we put so many layers
(10:00):
on top of what all of thesethings mean.
But at the end of the day,what we're talking about is what
you're describing in a, in ajustification that is given to us
by faith, by Jesus works acondemnation that he took on himself.
When I hear this, and I getright back to the root of the gospel,
that it's not about myaccomplishment, it's about Christ's
(10:20):
accomplishment on my behalfthat I received through faith.
It has such a liberatingeffect on so many levels.
And even I'm listening to youguys go back and forth on this.
So many fears are dissolvedthat are at the root of my life and
all of my struggles.
Which takes me back to thismessage that I am completely known
(10:44):
in all of my sin and darknessand struggles, that God sent his
son to die on my behalf and Iam completely and unconditionally
loved, is the most liberatingmessage on the planet.
You mentioned Jesus example aminute ago, that a lot of people
moralize it and want to follow it.
Jay Gresham Machen in his bookChristianity and Liberalism, who
(11:05):
is the Presbyterian guytheologian out there.
He said, no, I'm very thankfulfor the example of Jesus that knowing
that if I try to follow it, itwill kill me.
What it makes me thankful foris the life and the death resurrection
(11:26):
of Jesus.
We were discussing at anothertime, John, that Jesus didn't come
to this planet as a full grown adult.
He was born in humility, liveda life for 33 years, and then all
these events we're talkingabout took place.
So why the life?
Well, the life was what Johnand he, when he was talking to John
(11:48):
the Baptist and wanted to be baptized.
John says, I'm not doing that.
Jesus says, allowed at thistime that all righteousness might
be fulfilled.
And then Jesus lived a perfectlife, became a perfect sacrifice,
was raised from the dead andall of that is mine.
When Jesus looks on me or whenGod looks on me, he sees the perfection
(12:08):
of Jesus.
And materially, temporally,that's not true legally by faith,
absolutely true.
When Romans 8:1 says there'sno condemnation.
The truth underneath that isthat the work of Christ was so satisfying
to the Father that throughChrist, Christ made it impossible
(12:29):
for the Father to condemn meand not contradict his own righteousness.
That's exactly, that's howwell said.
That's how fixed it is.
Yeah.
Not, not to get passionate.
You're in spittle range here.
But that's the reality of the cross.
And I'm so thankful for youguys to, to bring out these angles
and perspective on it.
(12:51):
And it's, it's such a simplething to reiterate, but we get so
far from it and people getdrugged down into their own meritocracy
here.
And as we said at anotherplace, pastors have such the capacity
to create a meritocracy withinthe walls of grace here.
Yeah.
And it is impossible to dothat with the cross.
(13:13):
It's impossible.
So how would you guys respondto this statement?
Technically speaking, we'renot saved apart from the law.
We are saved in Christ whoperfectly kept the law on our behalf.
And I think that's, for me,that's an important distinction to
(13:34):
make because it gives credenceto the necessity of him having to
live those 33 years before hewent to the cross.
I did not come to abolish thelaw, he says in Matthew.
I came to fulfill it.
To dot every I and cross every.
T.
It has to.
I mean, we are saved by works,just not our own.
That's right.
(13:54):
The end.
Hard stop.
Right, Right.
That's the truth.
And I remember saying one timeopposing the question that I got
a lot of these cross eyedlooks like, what kind of sicko comes
up with this question?
And my question was, whyweren't Christmas and Easter on the
same day?
Right?
Why not?
Was the blood of baby Jesusnot pure?
(14:16):
Was he not totally righteous?
Was he not the Son of God?
If we all we needed was aperfect sacrificial lamb who was
willing, then theconsciousness of God in the person
of Christ, the child wouldhave been a sufficient atonement.
Herod had already sent out the goons.
(14:37):
The swords were drawn.
Why not baby Jesus?
And the answer is exactly whatyou just said.
The law must be kept.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, to be fulfilled.
It's the lepers, right?
Go show yourself to the priest.
Jesus didn't even waver onothers keeping the law.
He was like, nope.
I still, it will still be upheld.
(14:57):
So the 33 years that he livedwas to keep the law.
That was, what is the, what isthe righteousness that God requires
that we must be as holy as heis holy.
Leviticus 19:2.
I can't do it.
So he did it for me.
If you push it even further, asecond member of the Trinity taking
on human form, there was noneed for him to come take on human
(15:21):
form, take the law on himselfand obey it.
There was no need for him todo that, to improve his standing
before the Father.
The only reason he did thatwas for me and you and those who
would believe.
His entire mission was tofulfill that space and those acts
(15:44):
and that work.
So when you begin to thinkabout the cross and the righteousness
of Christ leading up to thecross, the perfect sacrifice of Christ,
there's, you know, thetechnical term is double imputation.
Sorry for multi syllabic word.
But he my deservedcondemnation on that cross, that's
(16:08):
me dying in Christ.
Perfect righteousness acceptedon that cross.
In that sacrifice, thatrighteousness is mine by faith.
Both things took place there.
I mean, it's mind boggling.
It's what Athanasius calledthe glorious exchange.
Incredible.
All of my sin is imputed to him.
All of his righteousness isimputed to me.
(16:29):
Probably the best, the bestway that I've come up to illustrate
this, come up with toillustrate this is imagine, John,
you're $40 million in debt.
There's no way in hell you'regoing to be able in your lifetime
to pay this back.
It's affecting your marriage,it's affecting your kids.
You know that your kids aregoing to take on your debt after
(16:53):
you're gone.
And probably given the size ofyour debt, your grandkids and maybe
even your great grandkids,that some of your bad decision making
financially has costgenerations of your family an opportunity
to get ahead.
And you're not sleeping at night.
You're.
I mean, this is, this is thedark cloud over your entire life.
(17:14):
And you make an appointment atthe bank to go try to negotiate a
lower interest rate on some loans.
And the bank president meetsyou in the lobby and says, Sean,
you're never going to believethis, but some guy who wants to remain
anonymous walked in here thismorning and paid your debt in full.
(17:35):
You are no longer in debt.
You are a debt free man.
That $30 million that you owethat you were never going to be able
to pay back in your lifetime,gone, Wiped clean.
And you're thinking, okay, amI on Candid Camera?
This is a joke.
This is a sick joke.
Why are you messing with melike this?
And the guy assures you, no,this is.
It is.
He shows you some paperworkand says, dude, it's done.
(17:57):
You're getting ready to dobackflips home, all the way home
to tell Valerie and to tellyour family.
And before you can get out thedoor, the bank president says, stop.
That's not it.
Not only did this guy pay offyour $30 million debt, he deposited
$100 million into your accountso that even if your spending habits
(18:21):
never change, you can never,ever go into debt again.
That's the gospel.
Spending habits is probablythe most important phrase in that
whole thing.
Exactly.
It doesn't depend upon yourspending habits.
You're never gonna run out of money.
Right.
And that's.
And that is.
I mean, that's the gospel.
It's not just that my debt hasbeen paid.
(18:42):
It's that a deposit has been made.
And that that deposit that hasbeen made is the perfect fulfillment
of every jot and tittle of the law.
That perfect law keeping isnow deposited into our account so
that when God relates to us,he relates to us no differently than
he relates to his Son.
It's so, so powerful.
(19:03):
You know, do you.
You know how people, when theygo to read the Bible, they look at
the Old Testament and theysay, that's a God of wrath and a
God of judgment in there.
And that's why I like the New Testament.
Huge misunderstanding.
The greatest demonstration ofthe pouring out of the wrath of God
on sin happens in the NewTestament that completely eclipses
(19:28):
anything that happened before,which was just shadows and that wrath
was outpoured on the cross.
There's more wrath to goaround in the New Testament on the
cross than the entire biblical landscape.
And all of that was to satisfywhat was necessary for God to bring
me to himself.
Well, and I'll say this, thereare people listening who go, good
(19:53):
Friday, Good Friday.
The death of Jesus.
Good Friday.
Because their account, thedebt that they have accumulated is
so unmanageable that theythink, there's no way I can pay it.
And herein lies Good Friday.
It's the exchange.
(20:14):
Jesus has entered thecourtroom on your behalf.
And I had a professor inseminary who said he was describing
us.
And it was one of the few daysthat I have no notes from that day,
none.
Because I just listened.
And he said on the cross,Jesus cried out, my God, my God,
(20:34):
why have you forsaken me?
And he asked the question, hesaid, have you ever seen a baby in
a crib when a door getsslammed in a house?
He said, the arms go up, thelegs go in the air, and the child
screams because they're free falling.
He said on the cross, Jesusfree fell from the face of the Father
(20:56):
and said, why am I forsaken?
And he did that for you.
Your sins are not too big.
They are not too great.
They are not too often, theyare not too regular.
Jesus died on your behalf.
That is why we call it Good Friday.
And this isn't just theology talk.
(21:17):
This is the basis of a freelife right here, right now.
This is the only solution tothe guilt and the shame and the regret
that we all sometimes feelbecause of our failures, because
of our secrets, because of our struggles.
This is the liberating powerthat sets us free from being so weighed
(21:41):
down by our lack ofperformance for God and others.
If people really knew who Iwas, they wouldn't love me.
God really knows who you areand he loves you anyway.
He knows more about you thanyou know about yourself.
And the whole reason he evencan love you as unconditionally as
(22:01):
he loves his son is because ofhis son.
Done.
Perfect.
Thanks guys.
Like I said, just in hearingit, what you just reiterated about
all of my fears, all of mystruggles, how that gets dissolved
in this reality in a moment,is so true and it's so powerful.
I know that'll be the effecton people that hear this.
(22:25):
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