June 19, 2025 • 27 mins
In our FINAL EPISODE of Season 3 we’re rolling up our sleeves and getting into some serious stuff today! We’re talking about grace—yup, that slippery little concept that seems to vanish when life gets messy. We share stories and experiences that reveal just how challenging it can be to find grace after making tough decisions, especially around topics like abortion. Our conversation isn’t just theoretical; we’re sharing real-life struggles and how they impact our identities. We also discuss how the church often handles these sensitive topics and how we can do better. It’s a mix of humor, honesty, and heartfelt moments that will make you think, laugh, and hopefully feel a little lighter. So kick back, listen in, and let’s navigate this winding road together, because finding grace is a journey worth taking!
Takeaways:
- Finding grace is a journey, and sometimes it feels like a wild rollercoaster ride through life's ups and downs.
- We often carry heavy burdens of guilt and shame, but remembering that God forgets our sins is a game-changer.
- Grace is available, even when the church doesn’t always make it feel that way – just ask God!
- Talking about tough topics like abortion shouldn’t be taboo; let’s break the silence with love and understanding.
- The church can sometimes be a scary place for those with past regrets, but it should be a safe haven instead.
- Life is messy, and everyone has a story – let’s embrace our messy stories with grace and compassion.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to the Misfitpreachers, talian Chavigian, Jean
LaRue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
Welcome to Misfit Preachers.
I'm here, as always, withTully and Chavigian.
(00:22):
Good morning, Tully.
Good morning.
And Jean Larue.
Good morning.
Brown.
Good morning, John.
Nice to see you.
Welcome to Misfit Preachers.
What's our topic?
Hard to believe.
Finding Grace.
When.
So it's on grace.
Yeah.
Shocker.
Are we never.
I'm not.
Are we never.
Moving on.
Spoiler alert.
Yeah.
What do you want.
What do you want to talkabout, Maya?
I want to talk about finding grace.
(00:44):
When.
In this.
Fill in the blank.
It's the season for you.
And we're trying to apply itto very specific scenarios in people's
lives.
Because people are sitting outthere in circumstances and asking
the question.
I hear what you're saying, but how.
How do I find grace'sconnection to me?
(01:04):
Right.
And I think sometimes they'reethical conversations or other things
that are, quote, hot topicsthat people don't want.
Like, we, we don't.
We find grace for that by nottalking about it.
And so we're trying to breakthat mold.
All right, so let's.
What we're going to do iswe're gonna.
We're gonna ask some questionsand we're gonna go around the table
and we're gonna answer thesequestions and address them.
(01:24):
These are pretty heavysubjects and topics that are real
and kind of on the ground realities.
Finding grace.
When I got an abortion, howdoes someone who went through that
experience find grace with allthe turmoil that might be in their
head immediately after downthe road?
(01:47):
Obviously, that's a soulshaping sort of experience.
But how does somebody who'sbeen through that and had to make
that decision or made thatdecision find grace?
I heard the most powerfulstory on this exact subject 12 years
ago from a friend of minenamed Rod Rosenblatt, who we were
(02:11):
together at a conference in Chicago.
We had just finished dinner.
We were getting ready to godownstairs, and he stopped me at
the top of an escalator andsaid, I want to share a story with
you.
True story.
A friend of his told him thatthis woman came to her pastor and
(02:32):
said, pastor, you know, manyyears ago, I had an abortion.
And the pastor said, yes, Iknow that.
And she said, months ago, Imet this man, and I didn't know if
it was gonna get serious or not.
But it started to get seriousand I thought to myself, I gotta
tell him about the abortion.
(02:52):
And she said, I just couldn't.
And a few months went by and Ithought to myself, as the relationship
became more serious, I have totell this man about my abortion.
And I just couldn't.
And then a couple more monthswent by and I kept thinking to myself,
I have to tell him about my abortion.
But I just can't.
(03:12):
I couldn't.
And now we're engaged to bemarried and I know I have to tell
him about the abortion, but Ijust can't.
She was afraid if she toldhim, maybe he would walk away, he'd
be scandalized, whatever.
She was afraid.
So the pastor said to her, youknow, we have a service for this,
a service of confession andabsolution, which is a fancy way
(03:36):
of saying, I'll pray with youand you talk to God in front of me
about this and then I'llremind you that your sins are forgiven.
So they went through that, Asweet time of prayer, confession,
a reminder to her that hersins are forgiven.
And when they finished, shelooked at him and said, thank you
(03:58):
so much, pastor.
Now I feel like I can tell himabout the abortion.
And he looked at her and said,what abortion?
And I remember hearing thatstory, and it was beautiful and scandalous
at the same time.
The fact that God does notremember our sins, that he forgets
(04:21):
our sins, that our sins arecast into the sea of God's forgotten
memory, is a mind blowing truth.
We don't forget our sins,other people don't forget our sins,
but God does.
And so whether or not weexperience grace from other people
(04:41):
in this particular situation,we know that there is always grace
for God.
I mean, from God to us insituations like this.
So I just think the whole ideaof looking at our past, at things
we regret, things we'reashamed of, things that weigh us
down, and then realizing thatGod has no record of that stuff for
(05:07):
me, is life giving.
Life giving, yeah.
And I remember the first timeyou told that story to me and being
so startled by that.
Because the what abortionquestion is the real fill in the
blank for all of our pastmistakes, failures, the things that
(05:29):
we're so ashamed of, somethinglike this being so intensely personal,
so intensely stigmatized, sointensely filled with the women that
I have met with, who have beenjust carrying the weight of this
for their entire lives, to getthat four word sentence out of their
(05:54):
mouth.
I had an abortion.
Is probably in my pastoralexperience, the hardest four words
for people to utter.
There's no take backs andthere is almost this immediate impulse
(06:15):
to describe everything aroundit as if like, and therefore.
And to be able to go, listen,what, abortion?
Yeah.
I mean, for the church to havethat response to people, to plagiarize
Jesus in that way.
So when someone sits there andI don't believe it's wrong to sit
(06:37):
there with the pain, theregret, the hurt, and to literally
marinate someone in the gospelin those moments, but at the end
of it, that statement is right.
Well, and we were talking alittle bit about this earlier off
camera, but in my experience,anytime the church has addressed
(06:58):
the subject of abortion, it'salways militant in a sense.
I mean, it's always speakingabout the evil of abortion, the fact
that babies are being killed,there is picketing at abortion clinics
and, and all of that stuff.
And it drives me insanebecause in most cases the people
(07:20):
sitting in those churchesagree theologically and ethically
that it's wrong.
So it's more a rallying of thetroops to be militant about their
stance on pro life.
And I'm always thinking aboutthe person in the pew, the woman
in the pew who has been livingwith this secret, who's been living
(07:40):
with guilt, who's been livingwith shame and regret.
They're, they're very rarelyaddressed, very rarely addressed.
It's always the, it's wrong.
We need to do something about it.
We need to fix this problemculturally, culturally and ethically.
But from a pastoralstandpoint, I'm always, always thinking
about the woman who has hadone and who lives with the guilt
(08:05):
and shame of it.
When my first wife and I weredating, this is back in the early
90s, she got pregnant and wewere 19 at the time.
We had no intention of gettingmarried anytime soon.
We were living very wild livesand she got pregnant and we got an
(08:26):
abortion.
So I have a fourth childwaiting for me on the other side.
This is an intensely personalthing to me.
I mean, I don't speak aboutthis stuff as someone who doesn't
understand.
I had to deal with this myself.
Oftentimes, at least in my case.
It's not just the woman whogrieves the loss of a child, but
(08:47):
in my case too, I thoughtabout that child all the time for
years and years.
I don't think about it as much now.
And I have all of the hope andexpectation in the world that whether
I have a son or a daughterwaiting for me on the other side,
waiting to meet his mother,waiting to meet me, waiting to Meet
(09:09):
his two brothers or her twobrothers and sister is exciting to
me.
I get excited about that.
It's one of the reasons I'mlooking to, I'm looking forward to
getting to the other side.
But this is, I've dealt withthis, the guilt, the shame, the regret
of it.
I know that my first wife hasdealt with this, the guilt, the shame
and regret of it.
(09:30):
And it's, it's a very painful topic.
And where there is non graceapplied specifically by religious
people in this situation, it'sa scandal to me.
You know, I think anytimethere's an event in our life, a failure,
a decision that we make withconsequences such as this, it is
(09:52):
such an identity, bindingreality, it binds itself to our identity.
We become bound to that oneact, it's like a phrase within a
sentence, within a paragraph,within a chapter of a thousand chapter
book of our lives becomes thecentral point.
And I know that's the case asit concerns those who've had abortions
(10:15):
because I as a pastor, Iwatched it, I counseled people through
it and it becomes who they are.
This one act, this one moment,one phrase in their entire story
becomes who they are.
And the message of grace thatyou describe and you describe coming
at them is so completelyforeign to them personally, it's
(10:37):
hard for them to grasp thatGod doesn't see this.
He loves them regardless, period.
And as it's reinforced, theanimosity is reinforced by the church
and by the religiouscommunity, what we would call one
topic voting mentalities.
It becomes harder and harderfor that reality to really, really
(10:59):
set in, for them to really own it.
And my observation was thepeople whose failure are most bound
to their identity, their selfawareness, their self perception,
are those who need sodramatically this message of grace
constantly delivered to themby the church and those around them.
(11:20):
In a strange way, in my ownlife I can sympathize because my
ex wife and I were pregnantwith twins, Zachary Edward and Madeline
Grace.
It was a boy and a girl andthe pregnancy became very difficult.
It required bed rest for along period of time.
And then my wife went intolabor at the time and it was rushing
(11:45):
to the hospital, rushing homeand then finally she went into labor.
So we knew we were in the moment.
And the first one was born anddidn't live, which obviously was
heartbreaking.
And the doctor came to me andto my wife in the midst of labor
and said, you have a decisionto make.
Save the child or save your wife.
(12:06):
Second one.
And it was a surreal experience.
Kind of dropped into my world.
And we made the decision thatwe thought was necessary, but we
were faced with a circumstancewhere it was kind of an either or.
It was not a both end moment.
(12:29):
My wife at the time survived that.
The child did not survive that.
But I remember living and Istill do, and I know that she does
as well with that decision,the decision that we had to make
in that circumstance, and it made.
It made me far moresympathetic, although under different
(12:51):
circumstances, as to peoplewho have made that decision for other
reasons as well.
And I think it goes back tosomething that we said on other episodes
of this.
There's always a story thatyou don't expect.
That's right.
In these circumstances.
And additionally, there arepeople out there in our churches,
in our community, in ourcircle of friends, who never mention
(13:13):
these sorts of things, butcarry these stories all the time.
Absolutely.
And the reason that you don'thear about them and the reason they
don't get healing from yourexpression of grace to them or from
other people is that they'rejust absolutely terrified to ever
let anyone know.
Because they know that they'llbe judged.
That's right.
And then they know they'll be shamed.
Whereas in that identitybinding reality, what separates them
(13:36):
from the thing that they didthat they regret is the grace and
love coming towards people who understand.
And when we know it doesn'tmatter what the situation is, when
we know that there is graceand forgiveness rather than judgment
on the horizon, we are muchmore likely to be honest about what's
(13:58):
really going on, the burdensthat we're really bearing.
Right.
The perception of judgmentactually scares people away from
telling the truth about themselves.
And I think in this particularcase, in many ways with good intention,
the church at large has reallyblown it.
(14:19):
I mean, they think primarilyin terms of ethics, which I understand
that there is an ethicalconversation to have around this
subject.
I get that.
But they fail to think pastorally.
They're thinking about thebaby that was aborted, and they're
not thinking about theemotional and psychological mental
(14:41):
strain and turmoil and traumathat the person who gets the abortion
will live with in many cases,for the rest of their lives, to one
degree or another.
And so what they do in theirexpression of their ethical stance
and the judgment that comeswith it is it scares people into
(15:02):
the shadows.
They're not honest.
They don't feel like thechurch is a safe place.
For me, to be honest, it isn't.
It isn't a safe place to be honest.
In fact, the church talks abig deal in general about A place
for transparency, honesty, and vulnerability.
But when you hit the ground onthis subject matter, it doesn't really.
(15:24):
It doesn't exist.
No, it doesn't really existbecause no one is going to put themselves
at risk of being honest aboutthemselves with the judgment that's
going to come this way.
And this, this, this issue isa dividing line issue on that.
If, if you are in a church, ina congregation that can show compassion
to these people withoutjudgment, then you are in a context
(15:47):
that truly gets grace andknows that we're all criminals in
prison and the rest of life isjust comparing crimes.
If you're in that place,you're in a very rare place.
And the majority of placesjust aren't like that.
I think churches in thatsense, this is one of the places
where we.
I've been part of thatconflated the reality of this cheap
(16:10):
grace mentality or easybelievism because we equate compassion
with permission.
And there's a fear like, if Ilove this person, if I'm willing
to say, I love you no matterwhat, no strings attached, I get
it.
I understand.
I empathize.
People are like, is this.
Are we about to pull, youknow, Democratic National Convention
(16:33):
and park an RV out in front ofthe church and give free abortions?
I mean, is that what's ha.
Is that the slippery slope argument?
Right.
I remember there was a womanin the first church I ever worked
who took the risk of.
I mean, and this is 1996, 30years ago, and took the risk of confiding
(16:55):
in me about her abortivechoice and worked through it with
her, with her husband.
She then began to volunteerand work with the Save A Life in
the area.
I mean, incredible things.
And shared her story at thebanquet at the Save A Life.
I mean, it was unbelievable.
And then, then came the eldersbecause she was also a volunteer
(17:19):
with the youth group.
We don't know if it's wise to have.
We're not sure if it sends thewrong message.
We're not sure if these things.
And I said, what message?
Yeah, that the church is forbroken people who've broken their
(17:41):
lives.
Is that, Is that not our message?
And as a new guy, fresh out ofseminary, I, I was like, wait, that.
Actually, they're like, yeah,that's not my thinking.
It's, it's, it's bad press.
My thinking was so different.
If I found a man in my churchwho had committed fraud, been convicted
of it, lived through it,repented of it, was restored, I made
(18:02):
that person the Deacon overthe finances.
I'm the church.
No.
Just went a direction.
No, absolutely I was.
And back to what both of youguys are saying about the church
not being a safe place.
I was speaking in California,this is probably five or six years
ago.
And the pastor of the churchwhere I was speaking asked me to
come out a day early and meetwith all of his staff.
(18:24):
And they had various campuses,and so they had all the staff from
all the campuses come, andthey asked me to speak and to share
my story and then to answersome questions.
And so I was talking aboutthese kinds of things.
How the church tends to be thescariest place rather than the safest
place for fallen people tofall down and broken people to break
things.
And how sad that is.
(18:47):
And when I open it up forquestions, there was a young, probably
late 20s, right out ofseminary kid who raised his hand.
His wife was sitting next to him.
I know the time.
And he said, I hear whatyou're saying, but you seem to be
speaking negatively of the church.
And the church is the body of Christ.
(19:07):
And he gave all this lofty,flowery language about the church,
the way the Bible describes it.
And I listened to him and Isaid, listen, all, all of.
All of what you said about thechurch being the body of Christ,
all true.
Here's my test for you.
Go cheat on your wife, thewoman sitting right next to you,
(19:30):
and see how the church responds.
Go do something.
Go do something.
In this case, you know, if you're.
If your wife had an abortionor if you got caught doing something
you know is taboo and bad, seehow the church responds.
We can all speak glowingly andpositively about church culture and
(19:53):
how we accept sinners, andthere are no perfect people allowed.
And we're a place of forgiveness.
We're a sanctuary of grace,that sort of thing, until you screw
up and then you discover whatpeople really think about grace,
what people really think aboutforgiveness, what we really believe
(20:14):
about grace is proven, exposedwhen it comes to dealing with people
who have royally screwed up.
Yeah, I was working in theMidwest, contracting with a very
large construction company up there.
And I met the owner of thiscompany and worked directly with
him.
He was just an immaculateleader, just.
(20:37):
Just an incredible man.
He was in his 70s, greatculture in the business, a very employee,
sort of forward guy.
And we had had lots ofconversations and I.
I was like, enamored with this guy.
He was just one of thosepeople that.
I'm so glad I got to know him.
He impacted me in a lot of ways.
(21:00):
And I thought so highly of him.
And at one point in aconversation, and this relates as
it concerns life and death,but he said, well, you know, one
of these days I'll tell you my story.
And I said, I can't wait.
So I was up there, he and Iwent out to dinner and I said, you
promised you'd tell me your story.
I'll tell you, I'll show youmine if you show me yours sort of
(21:23):
thing.
And he starts telling me his story.
And seven years prior to themoment we were having dinner, he
was drunk, got behind thewheel of a car, was driving home.
Uber successful guy in hisregion, killed a family of three.
(21:47):
And he said to me at dinner,he said, what you haven't known,
which has allowed you to likeme and befriend me, is that you don't
realize a murderer, wow.
But that experience in my lifehas completely transformed and reshaped
who I am.
And he goes, and I don't hideit from people.
(22:09):
I hug that cactus.
I've, as we've said in otherepisodes, I've come to love the thing
that I most regret in my life.
And it just proves the principle.
There's always a story, alwaysan explanation, always behind something,
behind something that we seein a person.
And in this case, in, in myexperience, oftentimes the most tender,
(22:31):
gentle, compassionate, lovingpeople are the ones that are guilty
of the thing that, that theymost regret but have come to love.
They, they demonstrate this,this compassion.
There's no other way in myexperience, for things, wisdom, depth
(22:52):
of insight and feeling to develop.
You know it from failure, you know.
It when you see it.
In.
Yeah.
You know, when you can senseit, you know it.
There's a, there's a depth,there's a presence about them.
So, yeah, I mean, I, you know,in, in for the woman out there or
for the man who's.
Yeah, this woman.
Great place to finish.
Yeah.
(23:12):
For the, for the woman outthere or the man out there who is
connected to the woman who hadan abortion, the level of guilt is
real.
The level of regret and sorrowis real, the wonder is real.
What would have been.
I've discovered that women,probably women who have had an abortion,
(23:35):
think about it more than themen connected to them.
And there's a reason for that.
I mean, this child was growinginside the woman.
There is a deep connectionthere from the get go, from conception.
But for the one dealing withthe guilt, shame, the regret, the
sorrow, there is grace for you.
(23:56):
And you may not get it fromreligious people.
You may not get it from yourChristian friends or your religious
friends, but you always get itfrom God.
Always get it from God.
And I know it is reallydifficult to wrap our minds around
the fact that something Ican't forget God doesn't remember.
(24:17):
But it is true.
It is said over and over againin the Bible.
We're not just making thisstuff up.
When God says of theIsraelites, I will forgive their
sins and I will remember theirtrespasses no more.
Corey ten Boom used to saythat God takes our sins and drops
(24:39):
them in the deepest parts ofthe ocean and puts up a sign that
says no fishing allowed.
Which is remarkably true.
The sad thing about that isthat the church loves its scuba gear.
Yeah.
Dead Water Expedition.
Yes.
We are experts.
Yes.
And it was Luther who said itis not the work of God but the work
(25:02):
of the devil to remind us offorgiven sins.
So any time you feel judgmentfrom the Christian or religious community
about sins you have done, thatis not God speaking to you.
That is the enemy trying toweigh you down with guilt and shame
and all of those things.
(25:24):
God's God's posture towardssinners is simply I love you, I forgive
you.
Period.
Can I add one thing to this?
Number one.
Amen.
Everything you just said, Icouldn't have said as articulately
and agree with violently.
(25:45):
And there's probably no fasterpath for the post abortive woman
to forget grace thanremembering the abortion.
Because it is a one way streetto karma for her.
Well now I can't have children.
(26:05):
Now this child of mine is sick.
What if I needed a kidneytransplant for this child?
We would have had every singleevent, every T ball game, everything.
Do I need this car seat?
Oh, can you hand me down clothes?
Every.
Every everything bad thathappens is somehow tied to my previous
decision condition.
(26:26):
All those things.
And what I want to say to thatwoman is that Jesus not only paid
it all but did it alleverything you need to earn the father's
favor.
Wasn't the do over familyyou're trying to rebuild right now?
That is not how you make Godhappy with you.
It is Jesus and Jesus alonewho's done that.
(26:48):
Yeah.
Not give me a do over.
Great place to finish.
Thanks guys.
You've been listening to themisfit preachers like subscribe and
share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
Prodigal P R O D I G A Lpodcasts with an s dot com.
You're listening to the Misfitpreachers, talian Chavigian, Jean
LaRue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
Welcome to Misfit Preachers.
I'm here, as always, withTully and Chavigian.
(00:22):
Good morning, Tully.
Good morning.
And Jean Larue.
Good morning.
Brown.
Good morning, John.
Nice to see you.
Welcome to Misfit Preachers.
What's our topic?
Hard to believe.
Finding Grace.
When.
So it's on grace.
Yeah.
Shocker.
Are we never.
I'm not.
Are we never.
Moving on.
Spoiler alert.
Yeah.
What do you want.
What do you want to talkabout, Maya?
I want to talk about finding grace.
(00:44):
When.
In this.
Fill in the blank.
It's the season for you.
And we're trying to apply itto very specific scenarios in people's
lives.
Because people are sitting outthere in circumstances and asking
the question.
I hear what you're saying, but how.
How do I find grace'sconnection to me?
(01:04):
Right.
And I think sometimes they'reethical conversations or other things
that are, quote, hot topicsthat people don't want.
Like, we, we don't.
We find grace for that by nottalking about it.
And so we're trying to breakthat mold.
All right, so let's.
What we're going to do iswe're gonna.
We're gonna ask some questionsand we're gonna go around the table
and we're gonna answer thesequestions and address them.
(01:24):
These are pretty heavysubjects and topics that are real
and kind of on the ground realities.
Finding grace.
When I got an abortion, howdoes someone who went through that
experience find grace with allthe turmoil that might be in their
head immediately after downthe road?
(01:47):
Obviously, that's a soulshaping sort of experience.
But how does somebody who'sbeen through that and had to make
that decision or made thatdecision find grace?
I heard the most powerfulstory on this exact subject 12 years
ago from a friend of minenamed Rod Rosenblatt, who we were
(02:11):
together at a conference in Chicago.
We had just finished dinner.
We were getting ready to godownstairs, and he stopped me at
the top of an escalator andsaid, I want to share a story with
you.
True story.
A friend of his told him thatthis woman came to her pastor and
(02:32):
said, pastor, you know, manyyears ago, I had an abortion.
And the pastor said, yes, Iknow that.
And she said, months ago, Imet this man, and I didn't know if
it was gonna get serious or not.
But it started to get seriousand I thought to myself, I gotta
tell him about the abortion.
(02:52):
And she said, I just couldn't.
And a few months went by and Ithought to myself, as the relationship
became more serious, I have totell this man about my abortion.
And I just couldn't.
And then a couple more monthswent by and I kept thinking to myself,
I have to tell him about my abortion.
But I just can't.
(03:12):
I couldn't.
And now we're engaged to bemarried and I know I have to tell
him about the abortion, but Ijust can't.
She was afraid if she toldhim, maybe he would walk away, he'd
be scandalized, whatever.
She was afraid.
So the pastor said to her, youknow, we have a service for this,
a service of confession andabsolution, which is a fancy way
(03:36):
of saying, I'll pray with youand you talk to God in front of me
about this and then I'llremind you that your sins are forgiven.
So they went through that, Asweet time of prayer, confession,
a reminder to her that hersins are forgiven.
And when they finished, shelooked at him and said, thank you
(03:58):
so much, pastor.
Now I feel like I can tell himabout the abortion.
And he looked at her and said,what abortion?
And I remember hearing thatstory, and it was beautiful and scandalous
at the same time.
The fact that God does notremember our sins, that he forgets
(04:21):
our sins, that our sins arecast into the sea of God's forgotten
memory, is a mind blowing truth.
We don't forget our sins,other people don't forget our sins,
but God does.
And so whether or not weexperience grace from other people
(04:41):
in this particular situation,we know that there is always grace
for God.
I mean, from God to us insituations like this.
So I just think the whole ideaof looking at our past, at things
we regret, things we'reashamed of, things that weigh us
down, and then realizing thatGod has no record of that stuff for
(05:07):
me, is life giving.
Life giving, yeah.
And I remember the first timeyou told that story to me and being
so startled by that.
Because the what abortionquestion is the real fill in the
blank for all of our pastmistakes, failures, the things that
(05:29):
we're so ashamed of, somethinglike this being so intensely personal,
so intensely stigmatized, sointensely filled with the women that
I have met with, who have beenjust carrying the weight of this
for their entire lives, to getthat four word sentence out of their
(05:54):
mouth.
I had an abortion.
Is probably in my pastoralexperience, the hardest four words
for people to utter.
There's no take backs andthere is almost this immediate impulse
(06:15):
to describe everything aroundit as if like, and therefore.
And to be able to go, listen,what, abortion?
Yeah.
I mean, for the church to havethat response to people, to plagiarize
Jesus in that way.
So when someone sits there andI don't believe it's wrong to sit
(06:37):
there with the pain, theregret, the hurt, and to literally
marinate someone in the gospelin those moments, but at the end
of it, that statement is right.
Well, and we were talking alittle bit about this earlier off
camera, but in my experience,anytime the church has addressed
(06:58):
the subject of abortion, it'salways militant in a sense.
I mean, it's always speakingabout the evil of abortion, the fact
that babies are being killed,there is picketing at abortion clinics
and, and all of that stuff.
And it drives me insanebecause in most cases the people
(07:20):
sitting in those churchesagree theologically and ethically
that it's wrong.
So it's more a rallying of thetroops to be militant about their
stance on pro life.
And I'm always thinking aboutthe person in the pew, the woman
in the pew who has been livingwith this secret, who's been living
(07:40):
with guilt, who's been livingwith shame and regret.
They're, they're very rarelyaddressed, very rarely addressed.
It's always the, it's wrong.
We need to do something about it.
We need to fix this problemculturally, culturally and ethically.
But from a pastoralstandpoint, I'm always, always thinking
about the woman who has hadone and who lives with the guilt
(08:05):
and shame of it.
When my first wife and I weredating, this is back in the early
90s, she got pregnant and wewere 19 at the time.
We had no intention of gettingmarried anytime soon.
We were living very wild livesand she got pregnant and we got an
(08:26):
abortion.
So I have a fourth childwaiting for me on the other side.
This is an intensely personalthing to me.
I mean, I don't speak aboutthis stuff as someone who doesn't
understand.
I had to deal with this myself.
Oftentimes, at least in my case.
It's not just the woman whogrieves the loss of a child, but
(08:47):
in my case too, I thoughtabout that child all the time for
years and years.
I don't think about it as much now.
And I have all of the hope andexpectation in the world that whether
I have a son or a daughterwaiting for me on the other side,
waiting to meet his mother,waiting to meet me, waiting to Meet
(09:09):
his two brothers or her twobrothers and sister is exciting to
me.
I get excited about that.
It's one of the reasons I'mlooking to, I'm looking forward to
getting to the other side.
But this is, I've dealt withthis, the guilt, the shame, the regret
of it.
I know that my first wife hasdealt with this, the guilt, the shame
and regret of it.
(09:30):
And it's, it's a very painful topic.
And where there is non graceapplied specifically by religious
people in this situation, it'sa scandal to me.
You know, I think anytimethere's an event in our life, a failure,
a decision that we make withconsequences such as this, it is
(09:52):
such an identity, bindingreality, it binds itself to our identity.
We become bound to that oneact, it's like a phrase within a
sentence, within a paragraph,within a chapter of a thousand chapter
book of our lives becomes thecentral point.
And I know that's the case asit concerns those who've had abortions
(10:15):
because I as a pastor, Iwatched it, I counseled people through
it and it becomes who they are.
This one act, this one moment,one phrase in their entire story
becomes who they are.
And the message of grace thatyou describe and you describe coming
at them is so completelyforeign to them personally, it's
(10:37):
hard for them to grasp thatGod doesn't see this.
He loves them regardless, period.
And as it's reinforced, theanimosity is reinforced by the church
and by the religiouscommunity, what we would call one
topic voting mentalities.
It becomes harder and harderfor that reality to really, really
(10:59):
set in, for them to really own it.
And my observation was thepeople whose failure are most bound
to their identity, their selfawareness, their self perception,
are those who need sodramatically this message of grace
constantly delivered to themby the church and those around them.
(11:20):
In a strange way, in my ownlife I can sympathize because my
ex wife and I were pregnantwith twins, Zachary Edward and Madeline
Grace.
It was a boy and a girl andthe pregnancy became very difficult.
It required bed rest for along period of time.
And then my wife went intolabor at the time and it was rushing
(11:45):
to the hospital, rushing homeand then finally she went into labor.
So we knew we were in the moment.
And the first one was born anddidn't live, which obviously was
heartbreaking.
And the doctor came to me andto my wife in the midst of labor
and said, you have a decisionto make.
Save the child or save your wife.
(12:06):
Second one.
And it was a surreal experience.
Kind of dropped into my world.
And we made the decision thatwe thought was necessary, but we
were faced with a circumstancewhere it was kind of an either or.
It was not a both end moment.
(12:29):
My wife at the time survived that.
The child did not survive that.
But I remember living and Istill do, and I know that she does
as well with that decision,the decision that we had to make
in that circumstance, and it made.
It made me far moresympathetic, although under different
(12:51):
circumstances, as to peoplewho have made that decision for other
reasons as well.
And I think it goes back tosomething that we said on other episodes
of this.
There's always a story thatyou don't expect.
That's right.
In these circumstances.
And additionally, there arepeople out there in our churches,
in our community, in ourcircle of friends, who never mention
(13:13):
these sorts of things, butcarry these stories all the time.
Absolutely.
And the reason that you don'thear about them and the reason they
don't get healing from yourexpression of grace to them or from
other people is that they'rejust absolutely terrified to ever
let anyone know.
Because they know that they'llbe judged.
That's right.
And then they know they'll be shamed.
Whereas in that identitybinding reality, what separates them
(13:36):
from the thing that they didthat they regret is the grace and
love coming towards people who understand.
And when we know it doesn'tmatter what the situation is, when
we know that there is graceand forgiveness rather than judgment
on the horizon, we are muchmore likely to be honest about what's
(13:58):
really going on, the burdensthat we're really bearing.
Right.
The perception of judgmentactually scares people away from
telling the truth about themselves.
And I think in this particularcase, in many ways with good intention,
the church at large has reallyblown it.
(14:19):
I mean, they think primarilyin terms of ethics, which I understand
that there is an ethicalconversation to have around this
subject.
I get that.
But they fail to think pastorally.
They're thinking about thebaby that was aborted, and they're
not thinking about theemotional and psychological mental
(14:41):
strain and turmoil and traumathat the person who gets the abortion
will live with in many cases,for the rest of their lives, to one
degree or another.
And so what they do in theirexpression of their ethical stance
and the judgment that comeswith it is it scares people into
(15:02):
the shadows.
They're not honest.
They don't feel like thechurch is a safe place.
For me, to be honest, it isn't.
It isn't a safe place to be honest.
In fact, the church talks abig deal in general about A place
for transparency, honesty, and vulnerability.
But when you hit the ground onthis subject matter, it doesn't really.
(15:24):
It doesn't exist.
No, it doesn't really existbecause no one is going to put themselves
at risk of being honest aboutthemselves with the judgment that's
going to come this way.
And this, this, this issue isa dividing line issue on that.
If, if you are in a church, ina congregation that can show compassion
to these people withoutjudgment, then you are in a context
(15:47):
that truly gets grace andknows that we're all criminals in
prison and the rest of life isjust comparing crimes.
If you're in that place,you're in a very rare place.
And the majority of placesjust aren't like that.
I think churches in thatsense, this is one of the places
where we.
I've been part of thatconflated the reality of this cheap
(16:10):
grace mentality or easybelievism because we equate compassion
with permission.
And there's a fear like, if Ilove this person, if I'm willing
to say, I love you no matterwhat, no strings attached, I get
it.
I understand.
I empathize.
People are like, is this.
Are we about to pull, youknow, Democratic National Convention
(16:33):
and park an RV out in front ofthe church and give free abortions?
I mean, is that what's ha.
Is that the slippery slope argument?
Right.
I remember there was a womanin the first church I ever worked
who took the risk of.
I mean, and this is 1996, 30years ago, and took the risk of confiding
(16:55):
in me about her abortivechoice and worked through it with
her, with her husband.
She then began to volunteerand work with the Save A Life in
the area.
I mean, incredible things.
And shared her story at thebanquet at the Save A Life.
I mean, it was unbelievable.
And then, then came the eldersbecause she was also a volunteer
(17:19):
with the youth group.
We don't know if it's wise to have.
We're not sure if it sends thewrong message.
We're not sure if these things.
And I said, what message?
Yeah, that the church is forbroken people who've broken their
(17:41):
lives.
Is that, Is that not our message?
And as a new guy, fresh out ofseminary, I, I was like, wait, that.
Actually, they're like, yeah,that's not my thinking.
It's, it's, it's bad press.
My thinking was so different.
If I found a man in my churchwho had committed fraud, been convicted
of it, lived through it,repented of it, was restored, I made
(18:02):
that person the Deacon overthe finances.
I'm the church.
No.
Just went a direction.
No, absolutely I was.
And back to what both of youguys are saying about the church
not being a safe place.
I was speaking in California,this is probably five or six years
ago.
And the pastor of the churchwhere I was speaking asked me to
come out a day early and meetwith all of his staff.
(18:24):
And they had various campuses,and so they had all the staff from
all the campuses come, andthey asked me to speak and to share
my story and then to answersome questions.
And so I was talking aboutthese kinds of things.
How the church tends to be thescariest place rather than the safest
place for fallen people tofall down and broken people to break
things.
And how sad that is.
(18:47):
And when I open it up forquestions, there was a young, probably
late 20s, right out ofseminary kid who raised his hand.
His wife was sitting next to him.
I know the time.
And he said, I hear whatyou're saying, but you seem to be
speaking negatively of the church.
And the church is the body of Christ.
(19:07):
And he gave all this lofty,flowery language about the church,
the way the Bible describes it.
And I listened to him and Isaid, listen, all, all of.
All of what you said about thechurch being the body of Christ,
all true.
Here's my test for you.
Go cheat on your wife, thewoman sitting right next to you,
(19:30):
and see how the church responds.
Go do something.
Go do something.
In this case, you know, if you're.
If your wife had an abortionor if you got caught doing something
you know is taboo and bad, seehow the church responds.
We can all speak glowingly andpositively about church culture and
(19:53):
how we accept sinners, andthere are no perfect people allowed.
And we're a place of forgiveness.
We're a sanctuary of grace,that sort of thing, until you screw
up and then you discover whatpeople really think about grace,
what people really think aboutforgiveness, what we really believe
(20:14):
about grace is proven, exposedwhen it comes to dealing with people
who have royally screwed up.
Yeah, I was working in theMidwest, contracting with a very
large construction company up there.
And I met the owner of thiscompany and worked directly with
him.
He was just an immaculateleader, just.
(20:37):
Just an incredible man.
He was in his 70s, greatculture in the business, a very employee,
sort of forward guy.
And we had had lots ofconversations and I.
I was like, enamored with this guy.
He was just one of thosepeople that.
I'm so glad I got to know him.
He impacted me in a lot of ways.
(21:00):
And I thought so highly of him.
And at one point in aconversation, and this relates as
it concerns life and death,but he said, well, you know, one
of these days I'll tell you my story.
And I said, I can't wait.
So I was up there, he and Iwent out to dinner and I said, you
promised you'd tell me your story.
I'll tell you, I'll show youmine if you show me yours sort of
(21:23):
thing.
And he starts telling me his story.
And seven years prior to themoment we were having dinner, he
was drunk, got behind thewheel of a car, was driving home.
Uber successful guy in hisregion, killed a family of three.
(21:47):
And he said to me at dinner,he said, what you haven't known,
which has allowed you to likeme and befriend me, is that you don't
realize a murderer, wow.
But that experience in my lifehas completely transformed and reshaped
who I am.
And he goes, and I don't hideit from people.
(22:09):
I hug that cactus.
I've, as we've said in otherepisodes, I've come to love the thing
that I most regret in my life.
And it just proves the principle.
There's always a story, alwaysan explanation, always behind something,
behind something that we seein a person.
And in this case, in, in myexperience, oftentimes the most tender,
(22:31):
gentle, compassionate, lovingpeople are the ones that are guilty
of the thing that, that theymost regret but have come to love.
They, they demonstrate this,this compassion.
There's no other way in myexperience, for things, wisdom, depth
(22:52):
of insight and feeling to develop.
You know it from failure, you know.
It when you see it.
In.
Yeah.
You know, when you can senseit, you know it.
There's a, there's a depth,there's a presence about them.
So, yeah, I mean, I, you know,in, in for the woman out there or
for the man who's.
Yeah, this woman.
Great place to finish.
Yeah.
(23:12):
For the, for the woman outthere or the man out there who is
connected to the woman who hadan abortion, the level of guilt is
real.
The level of regret and sorrowis real, the wonder is real.
What would have been.
I've discovered that women,probably women who have had an abortion,
(23:35):
think about it more than themen connected to them.
And there's a reason for that.
I mean, this child was growinginside the woman.
There is a deep connectionthere from the get go, from conception.
But for the one dealing withthe guilt, shame, the regret, the
sorrow, there is grace for you.
(23:56):
And you may not get it fromreligious people.
You may not get it from yourChristian friends or your religious
friends, but you always get itfrom God.
Always get it from God.
And I know it is reallydifficult to wrap our minds around
the fact that something Ican't forget God doesn't remember.
(24:17):
But it is true.
It is said over and over againin the Bible.
We're not just making thisstuff up.
When God says of theIsraelites, I will forgive their
sins and I will remember theirtrespasses no more.
Corey ten Boom used to saythat God takes our sins and drops
(24:39):
them in the deepest parts ofthe ocean and puts up a sign that
says no fishing allowed.
Which is remarkably true.
The sad thing about that isthat the church loves its scuba gear.
Yeah.
Dead Water Expedition.
Yes.
We are experts.
Yes.
And it was Luther who said itis not the work of God but the work
(25:02):
of the devil to remind us offorgiven sins.
So any time you feel judgmentfrom the Christian or religious community
about sins you have done, thatis not God speaking to you.
That is the enemy trying toweigh you down with guilt and shame
and all of those things.
(25:24):
God's God's posture towardssinners is simply I love you, I forgive
you.
Period.
Can I add one thing to this?
Number one.
Amen.
Everything you just said, Icouldn't have said as articulately
and agree with violently.
(25:45):
And there's probably no fasterpath for the post abortive woman
to forget grace thanremembering the abortion.
Because it is a one way streetto karma for her.
Well now I can't have children.
(26:05):
Now this child of mine is sick.
What if I needed a kidneytransplant for this child?
We would have had every singleevent, every T ball game, everything.
Do I need this car seat?
Oh, can you hand me down clothes?
Every.
Every everything bad thathappens is somehow tied to my previous
decision condition.
(26:26):
All those things.
And what I want to say to thatwoman is that Jesus not only paid
it all but did it alleverything you need to earn the father's
favor.
Wasn't the do over familyyou're trying to rebuild right now?
That is not how you make Godhappy with you.
It is Jesus and Jesus alonewho's done that.
(26:48):
Yeah.
Not give me a do over.
Great place to finish.
Thanks guys.
You've been listening to themisfit preachers like subscribe and
share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
Prodigal P R O D I G A Lpodcasts with an s dot com.
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